General Debate 10 April 2025

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Cassandra

Quoted by Graham Adams in a must-read column: “David Lange’s views in his 2000 Bruce Jesson lecture have been frequently cited on social media in the debate: ‘The Treaty cannot be any kind of founding document, as it is sometimes said to be. It does not resolve the question of sovereignty, if only because one version of it claims one form of sovereignty and the other version claims the opposite… The Treaty cannot even resolve the argument among Māori themselves in which one side maintains that you’re a Māori if you identify as such, and the other claims that it’s your links to traditional forms of association which define you as Māori.’

‘As our increasingly dismal national [Waitangi] day continues to show, the Treaty is no basis for nationhood. It doesn’t express the fundamental rights and responsibilities of citizenship, and it doesn’t have any unifying concept.’”

Adams argues that the next election will be a referendum on the meaning of the ToW. I’d argue that, legally, if the parties to a treaty can’t agree on its meaning then it’s void. The sovereignty matter is irreconcilable – it’s a yes/no.

As Richard Prebble wrote recently: “Either the chiefs and the governor reached an agreement, and we have one Treaty, or there was no consensus ad idem (the legal concept which is the foundation of treaties) and there is no Treaty.”

So farewell ToW, you will not be missed.
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April 10, 2025 8:01am
- mandk
  
  I can never understand how Māori can complain about Pakeha stealing their land and property, when Pakeha were simply doing what Māori always did.
  
  That is, if you wanted land and property that was in the hands of someone else, and you had the strength, you just took it. Just like Māori hero, Te Rauparaha, did.
  
  No one weeps for the other iwi Te Rauparaha pillaged.
  
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  April 10, 2025 8:39am
  - Interested Party
    
    I understand the vast majority of Maori land was sold legally
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:36am
    - PurplePen
      
      Yes. About 95 percent last time I looked it up.
      
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      April 10, 2025 1:10pm
      - Colville
        
        and the bit that was stolen is only worth $2trillion in todays money…so who cares.
        
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        April 10, 2025 3:33pm
  - Swifty
    
    Over the last few years ‘intergenerational trauma’ has become a thing in NZ – bad things happening to Maori by colonists 150-200 years ago has negative repercussions on Maori alive today.
    
    I’ve even seen claims it transmits through genes.
    
    What I’ve never seen nor heard though is intergenerational trauma being experienced by Maori today stemming from actions and harm by Maori against Maori in days gone by.
    
    If it really is a thing, then I’d welcome an explanation as to why it is so selective in its effects – that only harm caused by whitey can become intergenerational.
    
    Who am I kidding, you just know no explanation will be forthcoming, it’s all just grifters grifting.
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:38am
    - PurplePen
      
      And has anyone got any empirical evidence that shows that the trauma is in fact traumatic or how much it is actually felt by a Maori today. I doubt it. It’s possibly less than a stubbed toe if that.
      
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      April 10, 2025 1:13pm
    - Paulus
      
      Maori’s biggest problems very often stem from their Hereditary, and historical family, Genes.
      
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      April 10, 2025 1:49pm
  - Suze Wainwright
    
    Didn’t South Island iwi try to ban the All Blacks from using Te Rauparaha’s haka?
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:42am
  - In Vino Veritas
    
    Because no Maori history exists before 1840 mandk. Well, except for their “ways of knowing” and their myths and of course that they are “indigenous” (other than the fact that they actually tell everyone how they sailed to NZ).
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:47am
    - Paulus
      
      Anything before the so called Treaty is in truth made up, unless Maori could read and write, which they could not, as the Treaty signatures show.
      
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      April 10, 2025 1:51pm
  - R
    
    I will don’t like competition!
    
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    April 10, 2025 10:04am
  - Steve Otto N Shore
    
    92% of Maori Land was sold, not stolen.
    
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    April 10, 2025 10:06am
    - Northshoredoc
      
      Don’t be scaring people with facts Steve it will ruin their preconceived notions of injustice.
      
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      April 10, 2025 1:59pm
  - Phronesis
    
    A maori friend once explained the difference to me thus:
    
    When maori wanted more land they didn’t just displace its current owner, they ate its current owner.
    
    This is a remarkably effective way to avoid them asking for it back. Also some bollocks about establishing a spiritual connection with the land by eating the last guardian of it.
    
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    April 10, 2025 10:09am
    - PurplePen
      
      Took some as slaves too, after a bout of neighbourly rape.
      
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      April 10, 2025 1:14pm
      - Paulus
        
        And as such ignoring cross pollination of genes as we now see.
        Do you buy a dog without knowing its pedigree ?
        
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        April 10, 2025 1:52pm
  - kowtow
    
    Michael Bassett makes that point when he cautions people who want to use tikanga or what ever it is as the determinant of outcomes.
    
    As he says under that, the law of conquest is primary .
    
    Or as that other fella said “We won , you lost , suck it up”.
    
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    April 10, 2025 10:20am
- bennerg
  
  The ToW was drafted in English and translated into the Maori language of the day, which anyone with knowledge (and I have a Maori-English dictionary from that era to prove it) knows that it was a very simple langauge, with little of the depth and nuances that the English language did.
  
  It is also known that many Maori spoke English, some had even travelled to England to see and experience the English culture, and so what was proposed in the original document was never hidden ,nor in conflict with the translation.
  
  All the confict we hear today has been generated since Geoffrey Palmer and his ilk (and carried on by Chris Findlayson) who started a process of reinterpretation, introducing the concept of “principles of the treaty”, a nebulous and unspecified set of new matters that having an ethereal basis are very hard to counter, or even define with certainty.
  
  And we all crave certainty, and that is what I saw ACT’s Bill try to do. Without certainty we get instability, and the resultant ability for claimants to extend their wild claims for increased “benefits” from the Treaty.
  
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  April 10, 2025 8:55am
  - MCōs
    
    English wouldn’t have been the the first language for any of the Maori who signed the treaty.
    If presented with two versions they’re not going to listen to the one they barely understand
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:21am
    - Simon
      
      50 % or more of Maori fail dumbed down Neca Level 1. They would have trouble reading anything now. That’s by design. Easier for Iwi elite and Wellington Clown Show to control the uneducated.
      
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      April 10, 2025 9:34am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Simon
        That’s correct. They want them barefoot and pregnant and no awkward questions.
        The same tactic was a favourite of the Catholic church. Still is in the third world.
        If the average maori knew how much money was given, in his name, by the public, he would instantly revolt.
        
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        April 10, 2025 11:30am
      - Don Beckett
        
        That’s bullshit about the Catholic Church – other wise correct.
        
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        April 10, 2025 12:59pm
      - imalwaysright
        
        Don, I grew up in Northern Ireland and would be interested to know why you consider the Catholic Church’s treatment of Catholics as bullshit?
        I was there.
        Even at a young age , I knew they were evil fuckers.
        
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        April 10, 2025 1:15pm
      - Colville
        
        Don.
        You seem sensitive on the topic?
        Is it the Catholic not allowing condoms so the 3rd world had unwanted children and a plague of AIDS?
        Or is it the priests being relocated overseas so that could continue raping the boys?
        
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        April 10, 2025 3:41pm
      - David Garrett
        
        Don B: Please advise when the Pope decreed that poor families in the third world – or elsewhere – were allowed to use contraception to limit the size of their families. I must have missed that announcement.
        
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        April 10, 2025 4:08pm
    - In Vino Veritas
      
      Yep, they listened to and signed the Maori Version MCos. Both Apirana Ngata and Hugh Kawerau concurred that the Maori version translated to the English version. There was no doubt Maori ceded sovereignty in either of Ngata or Kawerau’s opinion.
      And for avoidance of doubt, here is Kawerau’s translation:
      “The first: The chiefs of the Confederation and all the Chiefs who have not joined that Confederation give absolutely to the Queen of England for ever the complete government over their land.
      
      “The second: The Queen of England agrees to protect the Chiefs, the Subtribes and all the people of New Zealand in the unqualified exercise of their chieftainship over their lands, villages and all their treasures. But on the other hand the Chiefs of the Confederation and all the Chiefs will sell land to the Queen at a price agreed by the person owning it and by the person buying it (the latter being) appointed by the Queen as her purchase agent.
      
      “The third: For this agreed arrangement therefore concerning the Government of the Queen, the Queen of England will protect all the ordinary people of New Zealand (i.e. the Maori) and will give them the same rights and duties of citizenship as the people of England.”
      
      I think we can safely say that the current Maori grievance business is just a gravy train for certain Maori.
      
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      April 10, 2025 9:55am
    - Don Beckett
      
      Stating the obvious doesn’t mean that many Maori in 1840 didn’t speak English fluently. The European whalers, sealers & traders had been in New Zealand for 2 or 3 generations by the time of the ToW.
      Maori regularly crossed the Tasman & traded with Australia in Sydney. A good number of Maori had been to England.
      So English would have been a second language to many Maori in those days, so claiming that it wasn’t their first language is a strawman.
      
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      April 10, 2025 10:34am
      - imalwaysright
        
        That’s correct, and it is fair to assume that some settlers would also know the maori language and be used as interpreters if needed.
        The idea that they didn’t know what they were signing is a stretch.
        
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        April 10, 2025 10:43am
      - Paulus
        
        Are you suggesting that the whalers who came to Ni Tirena knew English – may are from other worlds.
        
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        April 10, 2025 1:55pm
      - MCōs
        
        If that’s the case why did 39/540 sign English versions of the Treaty rather than Maori translations? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Waitangi
        
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        April 10, 2025 2:59pm
      - Jack5
        
        Paulus’s …Are you suggesting that the whalers who came to Ni Tirena knew English …
        
        Most of the whalers were from New England, but later many of the crews were recruited in Australia, and were often “ticket of leave” men – parolees.
        
        Some individuals came from other countries, but the ships’ working language was usually English.
        
        The great American novel Moby Dick has many references to New Zealand.
        
        One young crew man I know of was signed on in the Azores by a Yankee whaler on its way to NZ. He settled in Otago and ended up a hotel owner. At least one of his descendants is well known in rugby circles.
        
        The last international whaling surge was in the early 20th century, when the Norwegian Antarctic whaling fleet was based at Stewart Island.
        
        A young Stewart Island man featured in a recent TV programme was a descendant of a Norwegian whaling sailor, and at least one Southland woman moved to Norway with her whaler husband.
        
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        April 10, 2025 7:53pm
  - Scott
    
    I think the thing to point out is that the Maori people of the 19th century were an oral people who relied on what was said. Their language had only recently been written down. So at Waitangi they relied on what was said.
    
    The chiefs knew that what was being discussed was about who was going to be in charge? Would Queen Victoria be in charge? One chief didn’t like the idea and said it was against his mana to be under a woman.
    
    They knew what was being decided. And knowing that they signed on because they also knew things couldn’t stay the same. Maori people had been decimated in the musket wars where tens of thousands were killed. They knew they had to unite under one chief. But who? They couldn’t decide from among themselves.
    
    So they went with Victoria. They ceded sovereignty, they knew they ceded sovereignty and they reaffirmed they knew when they met at Kohimarama in 1850.
    
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    April 10, 2025 10:36am
  - AitchW
    
    Putting aside all of the bollocks created over the years by successive governments and judges, if that document were to be written today surely it would interpreted quite simply on face value. There would be none of the manufactured liberal bullshit applied (liberally in both meanings of the word) today.
    
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    April 10, 2025 10:53am
- Simon
  
  ToW question. The treaty released all the Maori who were slaves. Or did the Maori chiefs think they still had sovereignty, ownership, of their slaves?
  
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  April 10, 2025 9:45am
  - Cassandra
    
    Good question. Taonga?
    
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    April 10, 2025 10:58am
    - Bridgenag
      
      Walking larder
      
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      April 10, 2025 12:48pm
      - Colville
        
        The couldnt walk as the “larder” typically had their Achillies severed to prevent them running away.
        
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        April 10, 2025 3:43pm
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Yes, some chiefs retained slaves well into the 1850s…
    
    https://www.theprow.org.nz/maori/slavery-in-colonial-times/
    
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    April 10, 2025 1:43pm
    - Manu-Rau
      
      [Sorry Maggie: reported by mistake. Mods: please ignore my report request.]
      
      Titokowaru and Te Kooti both took slaves in the late 1860s.
      
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      April 10, 2025 4:41pm
- Ra Henare
  
  So as well as addressing The growing racial divide in NZ perhaps the PM could address the nonsense that is called Net Zero.
  
  Nobody seems to have thought throught what NZ will be like if we actually acheive Net Zero.
  
  Wait, hold your horses. Somebody has!!
  In the UK, so not dissimilar to NZ.
  
  https://rationaloptimistsociety.substack.com/p/how-the-green-energy-transition-makes
  
  A leaked government analysis has found that Net Zero could crash the economy, reducing GDP by a massive 10% by 2030. Yet the spectacular thing about this analysis is that it expects this to happen not if Net Zero fails—but if it succeeds.
  
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  April 10, 2025 4:29pm
Tomtoddy

It is hard to recall anyone as narcissistic, pitiful, so self-immersed and arrogant as Doyle, the Green MP, carefully protected by his party and explained away by the MSM.

Just who does he think he is manipulating a language hundreds of years old, claiming a confusing, childish use of pronouns just to preen his ego, arrogantly demanding everyone else comply with his pathetic, self-importance. I don’t “hate” you Mr Doyle. You are too pitiful and too much a nobody to be bothered “hating”. I reserve my hate for actions that indicate the abuse of children even if it didn’t happen. It is not a “fun” topic as you suggest. It is depraved and disgusting behaviour that deserves the full weight of the law focused on it with unreserved condemnation in all media.

Take your lame excuses and the juvenile victimhood pursued by your party elsewhere.

It is apparent you are not in Parliament for the betterment of society, to wrestle with the important issues of the day and make a contribution of value. I suggest you go and prance your egotism and idiotic nonsense out of sight, out of mind.
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April 10, 2025 8:06am
- kowtow
  
  Odd , innit , under the pressure of a press conference ‘they’, ‘them’ ( as te media also insist on calling him) became the plain ordinary and correct “me” , “I” .
  
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  April 10, 2025 8:16am
  - Notsofast
    
    A fun sentence from Stuff
    
    “… the Green Party says Doyle themselves has been speaking to police.”
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:23am
  - greybeard
    
    Very disappointed to hear Andrew Dickens using “they” & “them” this morning. Hosking didn’t.
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:48am
  - David Garrett
    
    Kowtow: “I” and “me” are not pronouns. It uses “they” for “he”, and “them” for “his”
    
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    April 10, 2025 10:28am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      I and me are first-person singular pronouns.
      I – subject of a sentence
      me – object of a sentence.
      
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      April 10, 2025 10:41am
      - David Garrett
        
        Maggy: I stand corrected! TBH I wasn’t entirely sure of my ground with that one.
        
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        April 10, 2025 11:44am
    - rouppe
      
      If that person is “they/them” for “he/his”, shouldn’t self reference be “we/us” for “me/I”?
      
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      April 10, 2025 11:20am
      - Mike
        
        I believe theidea is to eliminate gendered pronouns, so I and me are fine.
        
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        April 10, 2025 12:05pm
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        I believe the idea is to eliminate gendered pronouns,
        
        That may well be the idea…
        
        the problem is that in English verbs correlate with the appropriate pronoun.
        
        So if I was writing unambiguously about Benjamin Doyle talking to the police, I could write :
        
        The new Green MP is talking to the police,
        but I can’t grammatically write:
        They is talking to the police. I have to use the plural present tense form of the verb (to be)..
        i.e.
        They are talking to the police….
        
        which leads to confusion… is it one or more than one person talking to the police?
        
        _
        
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        April 10, 2025 2:00pm
      - Mike
        
        I agree. It would be preferable to have unique words to be the gender-neutral counterparts for she/he and him/her. But that’s not typical of how the language changes.
        
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        April 10, 2025 2:52pm
      - rouppe
        
        How is “we/us” or “me/I” gendered?
        
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        April 10, 2025 3:29pm
      - Pineapple Lumps
        
        This thread perfectly demonstrates the insanity of performing the mental gymnastics being demanded by the mentally unstable.
        
        You are struggling to make the language fit because it is a flawed concept. There is no such thing as gender neutrality or fluidity. It is just attention seeking behaviour, and/or the behaviour of the mentally unwell.
        
        Men are men, women are women and anyone else is sadly confused. It wouldn’t make sense to say an anorexic person was fat, just because they think they are fat. It would be grossly unkind to do so. It is grossly unkind to confirm someone’s gender confusion too.
        
        Ben Doyle is not a they or a them but a mentally sick man who believes their gender is fluid. He needs help not the cruelty of binding him in his mental chains.
        
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        April 10, 2025 6:36pm
      - Jack5
        
        Mike/Milky at 12.05: …I and me are fine…
        
        Both of ye?
        
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        April 10, 2025 9:39pm
      - Ghost
        
        Meanwhile, astronauts recently discovered a platform floating just beyond the moon with a sign on it that read
        
        “No intelligent life…. Bypass for at least another 100 years”
        
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        April 10, 2025 9:54pm
  - Beach Haven expat
    
    While I agree with posters who have said debating how to mangle (or should that be non-binarygle?) the English language to fit Mr Doyle’s pronoun preferences demonstrates the nonsense, I have a very simple solution.
    Mr Doyle as a singular entity cannot be a they. Mr Doyle, however, could be an It.
    I wonder how it would react to being labelled it? No doubt it would claim this is just more “violence” against itself. But at least grammatically our news reports would not be reduced to gibbersh.
    
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    April 10, 2025 11:17pm
- Yvette
  
  Doyle began their comments by saying they knew they would face prejudice and homophobia at Parliament.
  “I knew that people would not like the way I dress, or speak, or the causes that I advocate for. I knew that I would be under scrutiny, as is appropriate for every single person that has the privilege of this position.
  “But I could never imagine or prepare myself to be attacked in such a baseless, personal, and violent way. That my life and that of my child would be threatened.”
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/557659/i-refuse-to-be-disappeared-by-hate-green-mp-benjamin-doyle-responds-to-social-media-scrutiny
  
  Why do reporters speak of Benjamin Doyle in plural functions of grammar when Doyle refers to himself in singular terms?
  Are Doyles’ supposed pronoun use null and void when they themselves are totally inconsistent?
  
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  April 10, 2025 8:25am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    When their “authentic” self speaks, they are a non-binary individual..
    
    but when outsiders refer to Doyle, they (Doyle et al) must transpose/transform/bifurcate into a binary creature.
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:32am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Its the essence of infantilism.
      
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      April 10, 2025 9:48am
    - Taieri
      
      a binary creature
      ———
      
      “They” is not just binary, it’s multiple. Time was multiple-personalities were of a great interest to psychiatrists. But that was before the inmates have taken the asylum over.
      
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      April 10, 2025 10:11am
    - AitchW
      
      I really despise what these delusional fools are doing to the English language.
      When a sentence contains a singular “they” and a plural “they” it can be incredibly difficult to work out which of the “they”s are being referred to.
      
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      April 10, 2025 10:56am
      - Mike
        
        The language evolves. Who knew? Personally, I’d prefer distinct pronouns be introduced to provide gender neutral options to she/he and her/him but, as with most language peculiarities, the context usually provides clarity.
        
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        April 10, 2025 12:12pm
      - Taieri
        
        Personally, I’d prefer distinct pronouns be introduced to provide gender neutral options to she/he and her/him
        ————
        
        Such an option already exists.
        It/its.
        
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        April 10, 2025 12:37pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        Gender neutral is a psychological disorder.
        
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        April 10, 2025 1:01pm
      - AitchW
        
        Wrong again Mike. Who knew?
        Language evolves organically and incrementally, it doesn’t have fundamental changes like pretend pronouns forced upon it.
        
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        April 10, 2025 1:20pm
      - PurplePen
        
        Why can’t they just use ‘it’. Anyway, I saw this delightful gem recently:
        
        Calling yourself “non-binary” categorises everyone as binary or non-binary, thus creating a binary system which makes you binary again.
        
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        April 10, 2025 1:24pm
      - alwyn.a
        
        @Purple Pen
        I always liked the old computer programmer joke.
        
        There are only 10 sorts of people. There are those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don’t.
        
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        April 10, 2025 2:57pm
      - Colville
        
        @alywn.a
        
        So just like 10 out of 11 people understand maths?
        
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        April 10, 2025 3:45pm
      - RichardX
        
        Calling yourself “non-binary” categorises everyone as binary or non-binary, thus creating a binary system which makes you binary again.
        
        That is an equivocation fallacy and is the logical equivalent of calling base 10 whole numbers binary because they are either odd or even.
        
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        April 10, 2025 7:53pm
  - Jack5
    
    For those who haven’t seen this Aussie cops piece on “they/them”:
    
    https://youtube.com/shorts/bXMRPVfXtFg?si=1n8xx9vg2qoqEPOl
    
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    April 10, 2025 10:29am
    - David Garrett
      
      Jack: The thing is there will actually BE stupid people like the witness in that clip.
      
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      April 10, 2025 11:47am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      so clever
      
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      April 10, 2025 2:05pm
  - k1w1
    
    [Mod – use proper names, don’t try to invent smart names for someone]
    
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    April 10, 2025 10:59am
  - mandk
    
    How could Doyle be subject to homophobia if he is not homosexual?
    
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    April 10, 2025 11:55am
    - AitchW
      
      To be fair he did say homophobia and transphobia.
      
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      April 10, 2025 1:21pm
      - mandk
        
        Still doesn’t make sense.
        
        If he is non-binary, he neither homosexual nor transexual.
        
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        April 10, 2025 3:21pm
- Scooter
  
  It’s called a Narcissistic personality disorder. And it’s a prerequisite to be Green member.
  
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  April 10, 2025 8:34am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  What all this mayhem shows is voting for the Greens on the basis of the environment is an exercise in futility. They rarely talk about it and when they do their ideas are too wacky to be taken seriously. Their actions, as proven in the Doyle affair, are bizarre and not worthy of consideration. The Greens now bear no relevance to the responsible governance of the country.
  
  https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2025/04/jc-winston-shows-up-woke-greens.html
  
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  April 10, 2025 8:41am
- Gravelroad
  
  It was interesting (sort of) that this person Doyle was advised by his Green Party handlers to delete all the questionable social media stuff off his devices before entering parliament as their representative.
  He declined to do this.
  That indicates that he is indeed a selfish narcissist there for his own personal advancement – despite his several references last night to “serving our community”.
  That the Green Party was happy to have Doyle there as part of their parliamentary “team” despite his refusal to comply with their request speaks volumes about just how weak and unprincipled that Party is.
  
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  April 10, 2025 9:01am
  - peterwn
    
    They think they are doing just fine having won Rongotai and Wellington Central. So they do not care about perceived quality of list candidates.
    As others have effectively indicated – do not disturb the enemy when the enemy is making mistakes.
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:13am
    - R
      
      Wellington and Ron gotta, hardly the jewels in the political crown.
      
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      April 10, 2025 10:08am
  - wsk12345
    
    The fact that they saw that stuff and didn’t say “no thank you, you’re not the sort of candidate we want” speaks volumes. Instead they asked him to hide it. “It’s ok that you’re xxx but you must not let anyone else know.”
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:52am
    - AitchW
      
      I wonder if it’s possible that he was the best of the bunch on offer?
      Or do they simply rank their list candidates using a weighting system, ie transistors get 5 points, shit eaters get 4, transing their kids get 20…….
      
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      April 10, 2025 11:07am
- Paulus
  
  But, But, he is the current typical Green MP so leave him alone to fester his views.
  – I assume it will help the Greens at the next election to have him in the forefront.
  
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  April 10, 2025 9:03am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    If the greens wanted him to take the perverted bullshit down, then why the hell did those muppets make him spokesman for children
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:21am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  It turns out the Green party told him to take the posts down before he entered parliament, why then were the greens not pushed over what their bullshit last week meant if they knew this crap was bad for the party
  
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  April 10, 2025 9:20am
  - peterwn
    
    He should have taken the stuff down before he sought Green candidacy.
    
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    April 10, 2025 12:17pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      He was told to and refused.
      
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      April 10, 2025 12:46pm
- G152
  
  Explanation… its a green therefore it can say and do and all will be forgiven.
  People have gone to jail for less
  
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  April 10, 2025 9:25am
- Burtland
  
  Swarbrick and Davidson’s leadership has taken the greens into a cul-de-sac for the crazies
  
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  April 10, 2025 9:42am
- Suze Wainwright
  
  Is it still Chlöe’s strategic business mission to make the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand the predominant left political party in New Zealand?
  
  I haven’t heard her(?) speak about that much lately…
  
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  April 10, 2025 9:50am
- rouppe
  
  He says that “bussy” is a play on words from the James Bond movie containing the character “pussy galore”.
  
  How did the image you posted tie in with that James Bond movie? It never did, and never will.
  
  It’s a pathetic deflection. It’s always the cover up that makes things worse.
  
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  April 10, 2025 11:22am
- OlderChas
  
  What struck me most watching the video of the “Press Conference” was the attitude of the two Greens wheeled in to “show support” and who were in shot for most of the time Doyle was drivelling. The older male had his mouth downturned in what seemed dislike throughout, while the female on the other side had her head down looking at the floor mostly. Never saw a live show of having to “swallow a dead rat” before!
  
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  April 10, 2025 11:27am
  - AitchW
    
    Who were they? A “pale, stale, male” and a purple haired something or other….
    
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    April 10, 2025 11:48am
  - Scooter
    
    OC, apparently the 2 behind Doyle aren’t part of the Greens, the purple haired lady is from Inside Out and the guy is an “indigenous health aids researcher” at Vic Uni. So the plot thickens with no Greens supporting him although Sean did say Ricardo MM was in the audience and a Greens media rep.
    
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    April 10, 2025 7:54pm
    - Ghost
      
      Hūhana and Ricardo were standing beside him
      
      https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360647588/green-mp-benjamin-doyle-says-attacks-against-them-are-baseless-personal-and-violent
      
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      April 10, 2025 8:08pm
- Sir Henry Morgan
  
  One bit I don’t understand is Doyle’s claim to be a target of “homophobia”. He said this in his interview the other day.
  
  I thought he was “non-binary”, in which case he surely can’t be a target of “homophobia” unless the term now means something different.
  
  Then I also see that he is apparently in a relationship with a “woman”. God knows how that works.
  
  I would not really care but for the fact his whole existence in parliament seems predicated on him endlessly shoving his sexual interests in everybody’s face and scolding society for being less than fully enthusiastic.
  
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  April 10, 2025 3:57pm
artemisia

Health NZ proposes to axe jobs from team that brings in millions for the govt

Just a proposal atm and it is attracting very negative pushback, such as “blatant example of false economics”. And headlines.

“The Public Service Association said the HPIT identified and prevented fraud in the $10 billion primary care, disability and community services budget…. It said each member of the HPIT recovered $430,000 a year after costs – about a $6 return on investment for every $1 spent “.

“Each member” ? – doubt it.

Meanwhile, “Health Minister Simeon Brown said Health NZ was going through “a range of processes” to make sure they were “rightsizing the bureaucracy” with a focus on front line services. …”The reality is the public service union is doing its job, which is basically trying to protect bureaucracy, we’re focused on front line service delivery.”

Anyone who has been involved at a management level in large restructures knows that a whole lot goes on behind the scenes before a proposal is presented. A basic analysis will include costs and benefits. Plus future efficiencies, strategies and options internal or imposed. And not least exiting poor or risky performers. T’was ever thus.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/557689/health-nz-proposes-to-axe-jobs-from-team-that-brings-in-millions-for-the-govt
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April 10, 2025 8:06am
- Cassandra
  
  They are not doing away with the money recovery process, just right sizing the staff. The complaint is just special pleading by the union. It’s doing its job – as usual the media are not.
  
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  April 10, 2025 8:37am
- AitchW
  
  “The Public Service Association said” can be translated to “The PSA has been instructed by Labour to say” .
  No agenda there at all….
  
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  April 10, 2025 8:51am
  - Cassandra
    
    I think you’ll find that it’s the other way round.
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:18am
    - Swifty
      
      Yes, Labour is the political wing of the union cartel.
      
      Just like Sinn Fein and the IRA.
      
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      April 10, 2025 9:43am
  - Mike
    
    PSA is not affiliated with any political party and never has been.
    
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    April 10, 2025 12:15pm
    - AitchW
      
      Just like Bill Clinton never had sexual relations with that woman.
      
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      April 10, 2025 1:22pm
      - Mike
        
        It’s common to believe that the PSA is affiliated to the labour party, as some trade unions are. The PSA has always been politically neutral. Might as well refer to Federated Farmers as the national party in gumboots, or Forest & Bird as a green party front.
        
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        April 10, 2025 1:45pm
- peterwn
  
  ‘ “Each member” ? – doubt it.’
  More probably 20% of the staff achieve 80% of the results. The savings by reducing 80% of the staff could cover a helluva lot of hip replacements or leading edge cancer drugs.
  Anyway AI advances has the potential of identifying possible irregularities for further attention so a small staff could probably achieve 120% of present results.
  
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  April 10, 2025 9:07am
  - OlderChas
    
    Quite astounding that each (and every?) member recovered exactly the same amount!
    
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    April 10, 2025 11:29am
- Phronesis
  
  If it’s anything like the Auditor Generals office (and it will be) then most of the work goes something like: Prima facie evidence of fraud – yes
  Does the organisation have any tribal or union or other special connections – yes
  No further action required.
  
  A vast amount of the health budget is funnelled to third rate community providers who get the contracts by having the right connections. That’s where the billions in extra mental health funding went that didn’t result in a single extra mental health bed in NZ.
  
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  April 10, 2025 9:22am
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNDGTxSx-Rk
Polievre 1 Carney 0.
Pierre sounds so well informed with great plans, compared to Carney who steals Pierre’s ideas and lies whenever he speaks.
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April 10, 2025 8:22am
- Raphael
  
  Polievre’s problem is that Trump’s rhetoric against Canada has ticked off Canadians to the point where they will likely stick with Carney.
  
  (and I say this as someone who is generally supportive of Trump, I think he stuffed up with this one)
  
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  April 10, 2025 10:17am
  - sungsamning
    
    Yes, it might be a mistake. Or it may be Trump pushing Canada to break up. O pushing Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba to issist on a better deal from Ottowa, and Quebec.
    
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    April 10, 2025 1:13pm
sungsamning

https://redstate.com/bonchie/2025/04/09/new-trump-pauses-tariffs-for-90-days-puts-china-in-the-crosshairs-as-stocks-sore-n2187668
Huge: Trump Pauses Tariffs for 90 Days, Puts China in the Crosshairs As Stocks Soar.
President Donald Trump made the surprise decision on Wednesday to pause his newly instituted tariff regime and focus his energy on China. According to his statement, a 90-day pause will be instituted while various agreements are hammered out.

The exception? China is now set to receive a 125 percent tariff in response to the retaliatory tariffs it placed on American goods. [Presitator heard to utter ancient Chinese curse.]
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April 10, 2025 8:22am
- I remember when
  
  As Redstate says stocks have indeed been ‘sore.’
  
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  April 10, 2025 9:43am
- Lance
  
  Too late, the damage is already done. The downside of these actions are coming. Just haven’t fully hit home yet, but they will.
  
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  April 10, 2025 9:55am
  - Ra Henare
    
    I love it when KBs prognosticate on a future that they have no idea about.
    
    “”The downside of these actions are coming””
    
    It seems that some slow learners here haven’t cottoned on to the “”art of the deal””
    
    Part of that art is being totally unpredictable.
    Keeps your opponents off balance.
    
    Standing by for insults that I am an orange man supporter, from those who haven’t done their homework to understand what’s going on.
    
    For those having studied the man, it was always going to include some sort of breathing space.
    
    Forget him saying no extensions. Its the nature of the beast to keep everyone guessing.
    
    Yes his persona winds people up.
    
    I look past the Persona (Same as I did with Biden, Arden, Hipkins and Luxon). What are they actually doing(policies and actions) is the important part
    
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    April 10, 2025 3:55pm
    - slijmbal
      
      @Ra
      
      “It seems that some slow learners here haven’t cottoned on to the “”art of the deal””
      
      Part of that art is being totally unpredictable.”
      
      … is useless and actually a liability as a regular tactic. It erodes trust. A point about making a deal is the other party has to trust you will live up to your end of the deal. It can be useful as a sparingly used tactic to reframe a deal in one’s favour. A similar concept was described in “The Art of War” even and isn’t actually anything new. It takes a long time to rebuild lost trust. Longer than building it in the first place.
      
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      April 10, 2025 8:26pm
      - Ra Henare
        
        Seems to have worked for Trump 1.0 and some of his other ventures.
        
        You must be referring to long-drawn-out and often inconclusive agreements at the government to government level.
        
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        April 10, 2025 8:54pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  It’s not surprising. 10% is still on all countries accept China, they are waiting to speak to the 70 countries including us who want to deal
  
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  April 10, 2025 10:02am
  - Dudley Quaffquaff
    
    Has there been any independent verification of this “70 countries want to deal” claim? Yesterday our PM specifically said that we weren’t among them, where did you hear different?
    
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    April 10, 2025 11:08am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Well it was 50 at the start of the week, why would they not try to deal?, there is over 200 countries effected
      
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      April 10, 2025 12:51pm
    - alloytoo
      
      If we’re not among them then the PM isn’t doing his job.
      
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      April 10, 2025 1:42pm
surfing

The orange man buffoon reverses track again.

As I’ve said earlier, I like the USA pushing back on trade partners who act in protectionist ways. But, doesn’t the USA do the same? US farmers are protected from competition by their government.

If the US could remove their trade restrictions , at the same time forcing the EU to do the same, then that would be a good thing.
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April 10, 2025 8:29am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  10% remains on everyone, and 125% on China, it’s for 90 days while these countries negotiate deals, apparently 70 countries now are dealing
  
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  April 10, 2025 9:24am
- alwyn.a
  
  Trump has been hit by the same Intimidator as Clinton was early in his first term.
  Bond prices have started to fall and the interest rate is rising. That always stirs up the US financial markets and acts as a Presidential laxative.
  “In 1994, James Carville, who was an adviser to President Bill Clinton at the time, mused that he would like to be reincarnated as the bond market because “You can intimidate everyone”.
  Well Trump has discovered the effect.
  
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  April 10, 2025 10:54am
  - James Stephenson
    
    Exactly what did for Liz Truss when the Bank of England deliberated failed to intervene…
    
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    April 10, 2025 2:59pm
- Stu2
  
  Have to hope no inside trading is found
  
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  April 10, 2025 11:46am
  - Ghost
    
    A few hours before deciding to pause them, he did post on truth social telling people it’s a good time to buy. Very bad look
    
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    April 10, 2025 11:52am
    - surfing
      
      Trump can change the law anyway, and ignore any judges who make judgements against him.
      
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      April 10, 2025 12:14pm
      - Taieri
        
        Trump can change the law anyway, and ignore any judges who make judgements against him
        ————–
        
        No, he can’t.
        It’s up to the Congress to change laws.
        
        8 1
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        April 10, 2025 12:39pm
    - Mike
      
      Just a bit of light corruption. Nothing serious.
      
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      April 10, 2025 12:19pm
- slijmbal
  
  @surfing
  “But, doesn’t the USA do the same?”
  
  Absolutely. If one checks the actual numbers rather than listening to the whingeing rhetoric out of the US and we include various trade barriers, subsidies, tax breaks etc then the US is actually WORSE than the EU contrary to popular opinion. And, yes, the EU is pretty bad as well.
  
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  April 10, 2025 12:12pm
- Ra Henare
  
  I struggle with those wishing to insult (or is that just wanting to be part of the insult tribe?)
  using the word buffoon.
  
  Mirriam webster suggests
  a ludicrous figure : clown
  
  Cambridge Dictionary
  a person who does silly things, usually to make other people laugh:
  
  Oxford Dictionary
  a person who does silly things that make people laugh
  
  Thesaurus
  noun as in clownlike person
  
  This would lead me to think that Trump makes you laugh???
  
  While you may think he looks clownish and some of his behaviour may seem silly enough to make you laugh.
  
  The track record of what he has done (lets talk facts, not allegations) and achieved would lead to a conclusion that he has done some good things.
  EG,
  Removed Trans from women’s sport
  Stopped children being carved up in pursuit of some Gender confusion(and idiot parents)
  Killed off DEI BS.
  Significantly reduced illegal border crossings
  Taken a hatchet to Federal Government spending wastage.
  Addressed the US Fiscal disaster. (yep upsetting the elites and the ignorant who haven’t given it time before mouthing off)
  
  Yes, some will say he is a convicted felon(wait for the court of appeal to see how that holds up.)
  
  Others will burble on (without facts) about how he NEVER paid his building subcontractors.
  
  and on and on.
  
  So lets give it 6 months and see how things turn out before we turn into uneducated, knee jerking keyboard worriers.
  
  He has only been in power for 79 days!
  He only has 572 days until the midterms to get things done. (in case the house/Senate change sides)
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_midterm_election
  
  The party of the incumbent president tends to lose ground during midterm elections:[9] since World War II, the president’s party has lost an average of 26 seats in the House, and an average of four seats in the Senate.
  
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  April 10, 2025 4:16pm
lastmanstanding

J D Vances comment about Chinese peasants were most unwise. Unless you have worked with Asians and Asian companies for many years like I did you dont understand their mindset. It is not the same as ours. Whereas we will brush off incidents and move on Asians dont. They seek revenge.
IMHO China has options. It could either do FTAs with countries it doesnt have FTAs with or it could seize control of Taiwans semi conductor industry and them decide who to supply to. The latter would kill two birds with one stone. Never say never.
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April 10, 2025 8:38am
- emmess
  
  JD Vance is just kissing ass, like the boss expects everyone to do.
  
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  April 10, 2025 8:52am
  - Dudley Quaffquaff
    
    And no doubt it’s doing wonders for his relationship with the President. US relations with China, not so much. I don’t see any reason why the Chinese themselves should be expected just to laugh it off as “just Trumpy being Trumpy”
    
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    April 10, 2025 11:11am
- bennerg
  
  I’d suggest Taiwan has been very mindful of the threat to their semi-conductor technology, and that is why they have been setting up plants in Texas.
  
  https://pr.tsmc.com/english/news/3210
  
  TSMC (TWSE: 2330, NYSE: TSM) today announced its intention to expand its investment in advanced semiconductor manufacturing in the United States by an additional $100 billion.
  
  I’d also posit that should China decide to attack Taiwan, they have a dead man’s handle on all the critical infrstructure, so none would be left for the invaders. China would also appreciate that and that is why nothing has happened to date. The Chinese play the long game, and they know that it may take a hundred years or so, but they will re-integrate.
  
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  April 10, 2025 9:01am
  - mw
    
    From what I understand the machinery that matters is very much locked down and won’t work without constant updates from out of the country. I believe that is something in the form of rolling keys that have to be entered. I may not have the process 100% correct but in essence if it went to china the people outside the country controlling the security to keep the machines alive would stop them functioning.
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:49am
  - EssenX
    
    Xi doesn’t have 100 years. China has a demographic timebomb and might collapse unless they take drastic action before 2040.
    
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    April 10, 2025 10:40am
    - Jack5
      
      Not just China facing a “demographic timebomb”.
      New Zealand’s birth rate is below replacement.
      It’s down to 1.7.
      
      Same as Sweden and the US, which makes NZ about 138th in the world by fertility.
      
      More than 2.1 is the rate needed to sustain a population.
      
      Why? Singles life seems to be too attractive. But that just raises another “why?”.
      
      https://www.newsweek.com/2025/04/18/birth-fertility-rates-millennials-gen-z-marriage-relationships-2034965.html
      
      World rates:
      
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate
      
      One example: South Korea faces national collapse from its diving birth rate.
      
      The English-language version of Gigazine, one of the world’s most powerful blogs, reports:
      
      https://gigazine.net/gsc_news/en/20250404-south-korea-is-over
      
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      April 10, 2025 11:22am
      - bennerg
        
        A bigger concern is who is having families these days.
        
        It seems the more educated have less children.
        
        4 1
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        April 10, 2025 3:46pm
  - Paulus
    
    Biggest problem with all this is that to manufacture in the USA the wage rates are several time more than say China and such as Vietnam.
    For example the car/vehicle manufacture rates in the US are by far the highest in the World, by many times.
    Which is why the rest of the world do not buy US crap either.
    
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    April 10, 2025 2:09pm
    - bennerg
      
      The fix Paulus? Robots.
      
      Just look at any car manufacturing line now. The only people are the tech guys, who would command a lot in any scenario. I would agree that any warehousing staff (again Robots!) would be cheaper, but overall when you take into account less transport etc, would / could make it not that much of an impact these days.
      
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      April 10, 2025 3:49pm
    - Ra Henare
      
      Paulus. Grok disagrees with you (surprise!!!)
      
      China: 30,160,966 units
      United States: 10,611,555 units
      Japan: 8,997,440 units
      India: 5,851,573 units
      South Korea: 4,243,769 units
      Germany: 4,109, Taiwan units
      Mexico: 4,002,053 units
      Brazil: 2,324,832 units
      Spain: 2,451,221 units
      Thailand: 1,841,663 units
      France: 1,500,000 units (approximate, based on prior trends)
      Canada: 1,400,000 units (approximate, based on prior trends)
      Russia: 1,200,000 units (approximate, based on prior trends)
      
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      April 10, 2025 4:24pm
- Colville
  
  lastman.
  
  How would China seize Taiwan’s semiconductor industry?
  
  USA isnt going to sit on its hands there.
  
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  April 10, 2025 3:50pm
Observant Octagenarian

When you look at the current political world you realise what a vast intellect Jacinda was.
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April 10, 2025 9:07am
Paulus

Today appears to be the Maori Treaty Resurrection Day.
Hallelujah,
Oh the Joy !
Goodbye Luxon- today will be remembered by more New Zealanders than you realise.
Politics is sometimes called the ideal of Compromise.
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April 10, 2025 9:08am
- peterwn
  
  Precisely. The present situation is compromise at work. Chris Luxon made the compromise situation very clear right at the beginning. That is ACT could introduce the bill and National would support it to second reading but no further. This has allowed those on all sides to let off steam.
  Incidentally someone was complaining that the Government was getting all sorts of things through because opponents were paying excessive attention to the Treaty bill. If that is the case then that would be a political masterstroke on Chris Luxon’s part. Niccolò Machiavelli would be proud of him.
  
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  April 10, 2025 9:22am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    And Peters is fine, even though he is more vehemently opposed than the Nats
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:27am
    - Paulus
      
      Well it is possible the genetics of Winston, being a Maori, and he has got on well over the years, because of it.
      
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      April 10, 2025 2:11pm
  - RockyJ
    
    Luxon is playing a subtle game. He knows that it is pointless to confront treaty issues directly as this will only attract Act and NZ First voters to National. He wants to attract disgruntled Labour voters which is why he comes across as Labour lite.
    
    So far it seems to be working. He is a marketing man.
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:38am
    - cmm
      
      “Luxon is playing a subtle game.”
      
      Being subtle and playing your cards close to your chest is not leadership.
      
      We are losing 40,000 of NZs finest and brightest every year – that is 120 people a day. Those people are leaving because they look at things and don’t see any leadership going in the right direction.
      
      40,000 might seem low on a population scale (less than 1% of the population), but they are almost all highly productive, skilled people with peak earning potential. There are less than 400,000 of those in NZ so we’re losing 10% of the best and brightest every year. It has been going on for 3 years now, so the barrel is getting empty.
      
      Being “subtle” is not getting the message through to these people. Time to be open, frank and explain fully.
      
      So far it is not working. It is only working when those people get a good clear message and decide to stay – and those that have left decide to return.
      
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      April 10, 2025 12:04pm
      - peterwn
        
        “40,000 of NZs finest and brightest every year”. If that was the case they would appreciate the Lucky Country and not risk a 501 deportation.
        
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        April 10, 2025 12:30pm
      - cmm
        
        peterwn: Yes there are a few future 501 candidates between them, but the vast majority of those that are leaving are high earning people with skills. Skills that we need to retain if we’re ever going to build this awesome economy that Luxon speaks of.
        
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        April 10, 2025 1:43pm
    - peterwn
      
      This is an easier sell than selling OMO.
      
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      April 10, 2025 12:28pm
  - wsk12345
    
    That might be the case but the Nats sucking up to the Maori elites and their hatred for the TPB (“don’t worry we will kill it, spike it” and all the crap about cremation day from Potaka) is disturbing.
    
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    April 10, 2025 9:57am
  - Nigel Kearney
    
    I certainly hope this was just the promotional phase for the citizens initiated referendum that will be announced soon and ideally held in conjunction with the next election.
    
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    April 10, 2025 10:41am
    - James Stephenson
      
      Parliament has shirked its duty to define what a concept (the principles of the treaty), that it has put into legislation, means.
      That surely leaves us only the Winston Peters option, to go back and remove all references to that concept from legislation. I’d be happy with that.
      
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      April 10, 2025 10:56am
    - Ian Boag
      
      Realistically Seymour might have some basis for making a CIR on the bill a bottom line for the next election. Might work – he probably won’t get so uppity in the runup next time – his support pretty much halved when he talked about sitting on the cross benches and being the tail to wag the dog.
      
      It’s not as if we haven’t got enough really serious things to fuss about in the meantime. Economy, housing, defence …. take your pick
      
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      April 10, 2025 4:40pm
      - Pineapple Lumps
        
        Seymour’s big mistake was calling it the Treaty Principles Bill. Should have called it the NZ Democratic Principles Bill. Hopefully for round two he is astute enough to get someone else to champion it – and rename it so it is less controversial.
        
        Saw a car driving around with maori separatists flag held out the window. So a great day of celebration for the dividers and haters. Just makes me determined to fight harder for a NZ where we all have equality of opportunity.
        
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        April 10, 2025 6:56pm
  - cmm
    
    ” National would support it to second reading but no further”
    No they did not support it at all.
    Voting for it at the first reading while already saying you will spike it, and actively white-anting it, is no support at all.
    
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    April 10, 2025 12:06pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  What so he stuck with everything he said from before the election and so is Peters, but its goodbye for Luxon, what an absolute load of hogwash
  
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  April 10, 2025 9:26am
- Allan
  
  The fact that he has not got the spine to actually be in Parliament to make a speech about the bill is even more salt in the wound to many of his voting base. To say that he had other commitments is not an excuse. This matter is to important to be brushed aside the way it has been. As for the statement that the majority of submissions were against the bill. What an outright lie when all of the submissions from Hobson’s pledge were treated as one submission. Luxon and the select committee have no shame and right from the outset were committed to ignore those who were for the passage of the bill. We do not have democracy in NZ and this has proven that fact.
  
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  April 10, 2025 10:31am
  - Ghost
    
    Bulk submissions are treated as one, as were bulk submissions against. It’s why you make submissions you should do it yourself instead of being mislead to use these groups that take a bulk submission. Prime ministers are never in the house on Thursday.
    
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    April 10, 2025 10:43am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Yes, and it has always been the case, Act and Hobsons pledge knew that, but carried on anyway
      
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      April 10, 2025 11:08am
    - MCōs
      
      A submission is not the same as a vote otherwise it would be a referendum
      Anyone who just put their name to something someone else had written was defeating the purpose of the select committee process by clogging up the system
      
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      April 10, 2025 11:09am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    You can stop with that, you know damn well the PM and opposition leader are never in the house on a Thursday, Peters is not there either, even though he always is on a Thursday, but that’s different isn’t it
    
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    April 10, 2025 11:07am
Steve Otto N Shore

Yesterday a post about how Luxon spiked the Treaty Principles Bill seemed to be missing ths video showing how.
It has now been updated.
How Luxon Spiked The Treaty Principles Bill (FULL VIDEO)
Video 27.33.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjP_3aH4zXA
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April 10, 2025 9:22am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Nothing to bloody spike, it was always being voted down by every party except at second reading, it’s your fault if you did not know this before the election, both Nat’s and NZF clearly stated there would be no support
  
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  April 10, 2025 11:10am
NoCash

Very fishy about the fake 90 day pause news on Monday that caused a brief surge of the US market. Was that a test by the Trump administration & billionaire friends to confirm the effect? Now this real news 90 day pause causing the biggest single day rally in decades. Many insiders would have bought up at the bottom and sold today, making a huge killing.
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April 10, 2025 9:25am
- Dudley Quaffquaff
  
  Dear God, the stench of it is obvious from here.
  
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  April 10, 2025 11:41am
- cmm
  
  Tariffs are only one of many ways to tilt the playing field and in many ways have numerous advantages over others.
  
  The other main way to tilt the playing field is by using subsidies.
  
  Subsidies are far harder to apply and their effects take far longer to show up. It is pretty much impossible to change subsidies quickly, remove them, or double them. On top of that, the subsidies have to be paid from tax (or debt) and the people paying the subsidies (ie. the taxpayer) have no way of avoiding them.
  
  Tariffs are far better. They can applied quickly and can be modified quickly too. Subsidies are paid by the consumer (in some cases) or by the producer (in other cases). The taxpayer is not involved. Consumers can avoid the tariffs by choosing to not buy products.
  
  Tariffs are a thus far preferable to subsidies.
  
  Tariffs can also be used as a short term lever. Subsidies cannot. This lever is working.
  
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  April 10, 2025 11:42am
  - Dudley Quaffquaff
    
    “Working” to do what? What exactly has been achieved/is being achieved that is to the benefit of the US generally, as opposed to a few insiders who’ve made a stockmarket killing?
    
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    April 10, 2025 12:57pm
  - Ian Boag
    
    Not to forget that US farmers are heavily subsidised.
    
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    April 10, 2025 1:00pm
    - cmm
      
      Yes, of course they are which is the main reason why South Africa imposes over 60% tariffs on imported chicken (a lot of it coming from USA).
      
      Americans have been complaining about China not “playing fair” by subsidizing factories, keeping their currency low, reduced worker’s rights, pollution etc. For decades they have grumbled with little pushing back.
      
      Tariffs are a way to push back. Quickly.
      
      I am in no way saying this is fair. USA doesn’t care about fair when it comes to subsidies. It really comes down to getting their own way.
      
      I am not saying America is justified in doing what they are doing. I am mainly saying that tariffs are a far more effective way of quickly tilting the playing field than subsidies.
      
      Look at the massive Biden CHIPS act. That was huge field tilting through trying to subsidise the USA chip making industry. Cost billions. Slow as anything. Delivered nothing of value.
      
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      April 10, 2025 1:51pm
      - Ian Boag
        
        OTOH if China is subsidising cars and we don’t make them here perhaps it just makes sense to suck it up and buy them ….. ?
        
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        April 10, 2025 4:43pm
- Inandout
  
  NC, you do realise the market tanked further after Covid was announced?
  
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  April 10, 2025 11:50am
I remember when

You have to be really ‘Green’ to accept that Benjamin Doyles explanations clarify what he posted.
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April 10, 2025 9:53am
I remember when

I presume that Benjamin Doyle still holds a teaching certificate and he still appears to, or at least did, have teriary employment.

How?????
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April 10, 2025 10:02am
- alwyn.a
  
  There is one Benjamin Doyle listed on the Teacher’s Register. It gives a second name of Cody. If that is him his registration appears to have expired on 10 January, 2023.
  
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  April 10, 2025 3:10pm
I remember when

Ele Ludemann talking about the Greens.
‘Yet the NZ Greens still get around 10% support.’

Does this mean that a Party promoting DEI, can expect this level of support regardless of their other policies?
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April 10, 2025 10:18am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Greens will not lose much support, although i must remind you that at this time of the election cycle the greens are usually polling at about 15% before crashing to 10% or lower come the election.
  
  What it does do though is show level-headed hard-working taxpayers that if you vote for Labour, you get greens and TPM.
  
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  April 10, 2025 11:13am
  - AitchW
    
    G, I keep saying that National must categorically rule out a coalition with Greens and Maori party. Then stress over and over and over that a vote for the Greens or Maori party is a vote for Labour and vice versa.
    
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    April 10, 2025 11:46am
  - Bobba Fret
    
    The only Greens disaster that I remember that seriously pushed them close to under 5% and not winning a seat, was when Meteria Turei announced her benefit fraud.
    
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    April 10, 2025 2:48pm
Lipo

Anyone else think that it is ironic that on one hand New Zealand is saying to the world – hey we don’t have tarrifs, or if we do, they are very low. That the NZ Government imposes a tarrif on synthetic carpet?
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April 10, 2025 10:22am
- AitchW
  
  As I understand it the instruction is to use wool products where possible, other products may be used if there is a good reason to do so.
  It only applies to gorvenment builds and renos, not to the general public.
  So, no, no irony at all.
  
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  April 10, 2025 11:19am
  - cmm
    
    An instruction to use wool products where possible is entirely different from tariffs.
    
    As I understand it, NZ applies 5 to 10% tariffs on imported carpets. That applies to the general public trying to buy imported carpets.
    
    So, yes, irony intact.
    
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    April 10, 2025 11:47am
- Dudley Quaffquaff
  
  Tariffs can, if intelligently and thoughtfully applied, be a reasonable targeted response to specific circumstances in specific markets, eg if the exporting country uses subsidies or other trade distortions which create unfair competition. I do not know whether that is the case here, but it seems unlikely that NZ, which does generally and rightly pride itself on its openness to trade, would do such a thing for no reason
  
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  April 10, 2025 11:41am
  - cmm
    
    “would do such a thing for no reason”
    
    Well of course everyone always has a reason. That is often a reason others will disagree with, but it is still a reason.
    
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    April 10, 2025 11:55am
Chuck Bird

Worth the time listening to.

Leighton Smith Podcast #279 – April 9th 2025 – James Allan April 9, 2025 • 105 mins

https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1049-the-leighton-smith-podcas-30246213/episode/leighton-smith-podcast-279-april-272074426/

[Mod – give a description of what the podcast is about]
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April 10, 2025 11:34am
- Chuck Bird
  
  James Allan is a Canadian law lecturer who worked in Toronto for 11 years at Otago and is now in Australia. Many on this blog will have heard of him.
  
  [Mod – give a description of what the podcast is about]
  
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  April 10, 2025 11:54am
  - Pineapple Lumps
    
    The podcast is about Judicial Activism and Lawfare.
    
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    April 10, 2025 7:05pm
Ghost

Is it weakness of the labour leader that makes former mp’s and labour pm’s feel they need to do the leaders job for him. Anyway. Good comments from Nash

A former Labour Party minister has launched a scathing critique of the Green Party, labelling them a bunch of “rogues and vagabonds”.

Stuart Nash served as Minister of Police in Jacinda Ardern’s Government and in a post on LinkedIn criticised Green MP Tamatha Paul’s recent comments about the police.

In the post, Nash said he found Paul’s comments “insulting” and “ill-informed” and described her as “out of touch with “good hard-working Kiwis”.

Article
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April 10, 2025 11:38am
- PurplePen
  
  Another narcissist like Doyle and Garahman.
  
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  April 10, 2025 1:40pm
- Bobba Fret
  
  I heard Nash interviewed by Hosking a few weeks ago. IMO he has become a lot more sensible since he has left the Labour party.
  
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  April 10, 2025 2:46pm
peterwn

Green Party and Police – it has occurred where Green Party wants to take things. Just read ‘1984’. The ‘Ministry of Love’ would not have cared about law and order within the proles. The Party was so concerned about information and propaganda that it had a special Ministry for that – ‘Ministry of Truth’. So the Police were ‘repositioned’ to deal with things of concern to the Party, hence they became the ‘Thought Police’ or Thinkpol for short.
Step out of line with thoughts or ideology and you were in big trouble as Winston Smith found out the hard way.
Chlöe Swarbrick and Tamatha Paul would just love such a policing arrangement.
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April 10, 2025 12:25pm
peterwn

“JAMIE ARBUCKLE to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by all of his Government’s statements and actions?”
How dumb do the Opposition get. They know that Chris Luxon is not in the House on Thursdays (nor is Chris Hipkins).
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April 10, 2025 12:34pm
- Steve Todd
  
  Jamie Arbuckle is a Government MP (NZ First). Perhaps he is asking the question, knowing that his leader will be answering it.
  
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  April 10, 2025 1:37pm
Taieri

An interesting turn of phrase:

“It is expected the controversial bill – which seeks to RE-DEFINE the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi – will be voted down this afternoon.”

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/557695/national-minister-heralds-cremation-day-for-treaty-principles-bill

How can something that has never be defined be re-defined?
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April 10, 2025 12:43pm
- Mike
  
  The bill’s stated purpose is to define the principles. The principles were referred to in the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975, defined by the courts in a series of cases and published by the government.
  It is absolutely correct to refer to the bill as seeking to redefine the principles.
  
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  April 10, 2025 2:00pm
  - rouppe
    
    “defined by the courts in a series of cases and published by the government”
    
    Where? Actual definitions, not waffly stuff.
    
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    April 10, 2025 3:41pm
  - Taieri
    
    The principles were referred to in the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975
    ———
    
    Yes, they are referred to, but they are not stated in the Act. The courts can’t define something, which is not expressly stated in the legislation. The courts can give their interpretation of the Treaty or the Act, but any such interpretation is by its very nature subjective and as such can’t be said to contain “principles”.
    
    There’re also no “principles” expressed in the original document, be it English or Maori version.
    
    Te Ara explains it as follows:
    “There is no final and complete list of treaty principles. Instead, official documents have referred to treaty principles in general terms, without including the actual treaty text, because the English and Māori versions of the treaty are not direct translations of each other, so difficulties arise in interpretation.”
    
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    April 10, 2025 3:54pm
  - Eastlander
    
    Try to defend the invented principles on their merits instead of deflecting. You can’t because there is no sensible case for subordinating our sovereign parliament – the best form of government in history
    – to a ‘partnership’ with the worst elements of New Zealand society.
    
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    April 10, 2025 5:20pm
- cmm
  
  It is gaslighting to try sell the idea that the current interpretation of the treaty is solid and well defined.
  
  Any changes are therefore labelled as a re-definition (ie. to give the idea it is an invalid and unfair rewrite to screw the Maori).
  
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  April 10, 2025 2:47pm
jon

APRIL 10th, the 57th anniversary of the interislander ferry, WAHINE, floundering in Wellington harbour, with tragic loss of many lives. RIP.
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April 10, 2025 1:00pm
- AitchW
  
  Foundering. The victims floundered in the water.
  
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  April 10, 2025 6:06pm
- Jack5
  
  One of the survivors was Christchurch electronics entrepreneur Angus Tait.
  
  His firm, Tait Electronics, lives on after his death years after the Wahine sinking.
  
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  April 10, 2025 8:38pm
PurplePen

Tajikistan which is almost entirely Muslim is set to ban the hijab as it is ‘alien’ to its culture. It piqued my interest. I’ve always thought that what makes a nation hum is similar values rather than multiple cultures. My question is, is there a cut-off point for NZers for any culture or religion where we would or should say no or it’s ‘alien’ enough and therefore you can’t do that here or you’re not allowed to come in.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/this-country-is-banning-hijabs-despite-its-98-muslim-population/ar-BB1oHcdv
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April 10, 2025 1:06pm
- Mike
  
  Well, some practices common in some other countries would be illegal here. So are there any cultural or religious practices you would wish to ban which are not already illegal?
  
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  April 10, 2025 1:49pm
  - PurplePen
    
    I suppose if the cultural or religious practice is illegal here then they can’t be practiced. There is some procedural inequality that has crept in that occurs depending on your religion or culture. There is also the free ride that religious texts and sermons get. There religious texts that would in any other publication be unlawful or abhorrent.
    
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    April 10, 2025 3:42pm
    - Mike
      
      Do you mean the Old Testament?
      
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      April 10, 2025 4:34pm
- Taieri
  
  Tajikistan which is almost entirely Muslim is set to ban the hijab
  ———–
  
  And so has Kyrgyzstan.
  
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  April 10, 2025 3:56pm
Tauhei Notts

Possibly I spend too much time on the internet reading a wide range of topics.
But one thing I have noticed is that seems to be a widespread demand for more balanced journalism. Most people on this site will agree whole heartedly, but I am getting it from males aged 25 to 50. They are not old fogies. They are concerned about our news media.
As such any change in the NZ Herald’s set up could have huge potential. There is a huge silent majority in our country.
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April 10, 2025 1:22pm
goNZ1

our Incredible PM is at it again!

” We are a country that has benefit, as I said this morning, from our history, earned INCREDIBLY well by advocating very strongly for free trade. ”
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April 10, 2025 1:25pm
- Ghost
  
  Your problem with that statement is what? You don’t like a certain word. Bit stupid if that is your whinge
  
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  April 10, 2025 1:39pm
- Inandout
  
  go, politicians seem to overuse ‘incredibly’ when referring to themselves or Ministers workloads.
  
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  April 10, 2025 1:44pm
Swifty

120 Maori delegates heading to an indigenous conference in New Mexico, USA.

https://waateanews.com/2025/04/09/professor-leonie-pihama-director-of-maori-and-indigenous-analysis-ltd/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR7I7bdycjbDx0uT0-qVt1UwYOJdfYePWKXhtgeqHqGL2TuS7pmhKvhF7GPWfA_aem_uvWxn1FhKwFYe6kr5jJRJA

Bloody great for some, I wonder who is picking up the tab for that?

And I guess none of these people subscribe to the climate crisis or global boiling emergency right now?
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April 10, 2025 1:41pm
- Taieri
  
  I wonder who is picking up the tab for that?
  ———
  
  You are. And all the other taxpayers…
  
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  April 10, 2025 3:57pm
- AitchW
  
  120? Surely the taxpayer isn’t funding that little jolly?
  
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  April 10, 2025 6:04pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  To ask the question is to answer it, Comrade
  
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  April 10, 2025 7:21pm
goNZ1

Wellington CC continue with their campaign to make life as difficult as possible for car owners.
Drivers will have to continue putt- putting along at 30kph because its so Naughty and Dangerous to go 50kph – what a pack of losers.

this from far-left Stuff ”Wellington City Council is the latest authority to push back against the government’s new speed limit rule.
In a rare moment of unanimity, the council’s Regulatory Processes Committee agreed on Wednesday to ask Transport Minister Chris Bishop for an exemption to the requirement to increase speed limits on certain central city roads.
Councillor Geordie Rogers moved the amendment, after council officers recommended they vote to return the roads to 50 kph.
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April 10, 2025 1:43pm
MCōs

The tariff on Thai imports to America was set at 36% the other day, which caused a dive in the always jittery local share market.
I told my wife this morning the rate has been reduced, at least in the short term to 10%.
She said that Trump was ting-tong; a Thai word that requires no translation.
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April 10, 2025 1:52pm
cmm

A bunch of numbskulls doesn’t understand how borrowing works.

An activist goup says that OCR changes should be passed on to borrowers immediately.

That might be nice, but banks have often borrowed money from investors at fixed interest rates. They can’t just lend out that money at lower interest rates.

If the government was to force this (as requested by these people), then what happens to the people who have fixed term deposits? Should they take a haircut too? Or should “the government” (ie. the taxpayer) have to cough up the difference?

As always, don’t like the deal you’re getting? Take your business elsewhere.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/360648937/not-good-enough-why-dont-banks-pass-ocr-cut-instantly
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April 10, 2025 2:01pm
Jethrod

Mr Doyle appeared in Parliament just before question time in an absolutely lovely little number, in pale blue. From the CCTV, couldn’t view the pearls, but surely they were there. Received loving cuddles and hongis from his own party, but you could almost feel the cringe from members close -by.
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April 10, 2025 2:18pm
cmm

Wayne Brown having a sook that cabinet ministers get limos but he doesn’t.

Pretty basic son: it’s not part of the remuneration package.

If you wanted the toys that come with being a cabinet minister then you should have become a cabinet minister.

He clearly thinks that is “unfair”, but that’s how it rolls. You knew what the deal was when you signed up.

I have extremely valuable technical talents which are extremely rare. They are about as rare as brain surgeons’ talents. I only get paid a small fraction of what a brain surgeon gets paid. Is that fair? No. But I know what I signed up for.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-mayor-wayne-brown-questions-why-cabinet-ministers-get-limos-but-not-him-after-driving-offence/72PTJCI2WVASDATZJGLATOHIZA/
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April 10, 2025 2:25pm
- Taieri
  
  I have extremely valuable technical talents which are extremely rare
  ——-
  
  Modesty?…;-)
  
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  April 10, 2025 2:46pm
  - Rex
    
    Lol. Comment flooding can be a super power.Sarc.
    
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    April 10, 2025 4:37pm
- rouppe
  
  Wayne Brown would have been fine if he was using a hands free cradle. But he wasn’t.
  
  Any car these days has Bluetooth connectivity. Which means you don’t have to hold the phone up to your mouth when you speak. Which he did.
  
  PS: having a phone on speaker isn’t hands free.
  
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  April 10, 2025 3:33pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  He has a point. Back in the day, there were Mayoral limousines.
  
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  April 10, 2025 7:23pm
cmm

“On Thursday, Justice Mathew Downs ordered Talagi to serve a life sentence in prison. He will not be eligible for parole for at least 12 years. Justice Downs also sentenced him to five years for wounding Alexander, to be served at the same time.”

Was that bus ticket warmed up just how you like it sir?

Still, at lest he didn’t get home D.

“When Alexander stepped in, he was shot twice, in his arm and abdomen, in what Talagi told the court was an accidental firing.”

They should have told him to pull the other one. Sure guns do sometimes go off accidentally in situations like this (eg. someone thinks the gun’s safety is on but it isn’t and you’re hopped up on adrenaline so your trigger control goes to hell), but not twice.

To make things worse, the girlfriend is in the pudding club so the next generation is on its way.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360640727/queen-st-execution-life-imprisonment-murderer-who-fled-shooting-e-scooter
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April 10, 2025 2:44pm
Tom Hunter

Two of my kids want to do an OE to Britain, as I and hundreds of thousands of other Kiwis did in our youth over the last 60 years and more.

But I’ve told them that I don’t think it’s a good idea nowadays:

British police authorities are now, shockingly, making around 12,000 (!) arrests every year in this country because of what people wrote online, on mail, or said on the telephone —much of which, we are told, made others feel “anxious”, “uncomfortable” or “emotionally harmed”.

The “Two-Tier Kier” slur is also well deserved, even if the Tories are equally culpable:

It’s about the more than one hundred Brits who have also been hurled into prison for what they wrote on social media in the aftermath of Southport, often in the privacy of their own homes, while the likes of disgraced BBC presenter Huw Edwards, found with indecent images of children, somehow managed to avoid prison time.
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April 10, 2025 3:41pm
- Mike
  
  Can’t go to the states either, lest they be arrested and sent to a prison in El Salvador with no right to a court hearing,
  
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  April 10, 2025 3:46pm
  - Allan
    
    That’s a stupid thing to say, and you know it.
    
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    April 10, 2025 5:22pm
    - Mike
      
      You don’t believe it?
      
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      April 10, 2025 6:25pm
  - Ghost
    
    Not now
    
    https://www.zerohedge.com/political/supreme-court-sides-trump-over-venezuelan-deportations-requires-due-process-each-case
    
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    April 10, 2025 6:54pm
- mandk
  
  Poland and Hungary sound good.
  
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  April 10, 2025 4:31pm
  - Tom Hunter
    
    Yes. I was a bit surprised by this news, even knowing how well Poland’s being going:
    
    Poland, a Soviet-dominated communist state until 1989, is expected by next year to have higher economic output per person than Japan. For perspective, according to the World Bank (all of these numbers are adjusted for inflation and purchasing power between countries), Poland’s GDP per capita was $12,810 in 1990. That was roughly the same as Brazil’s and over $4,000 behind Mexico’s. Japan’s was almost three times higher, at $35,306. In 2023, the most recent year with available data, Japan’s was $45,949 and Poland’s was less than $2,500 behind, at $43,585. A gap of over $30,000 per person, gone in one generation.
    
    And the woman are hot!
    
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    April 10, 2025 5:35pm
    - Don Beckett
      
      And Poland also gives the middle finger to the EU if it doesn’t suit them – good on them.
      
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      April 10, 2025 7:55pm
- MCōs
  
  I went to work in London before the term OE was even invented.
  Back in those days I couldn’t believe the animosity expressed towards foreigners, Pakistanis and Jamaicans in particular. One day I got annoyed with the anti foreigner conversation in the office and reminded them that I was a foreigner. No you’re not, said someone, you’re a Kiwi.
  
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  April 10, 2025 5:05pm
  - Tom Hunter
    
    Well you’d love it now MCos, given the above stories. The Brits who think like that are being thrown in jail, so there likely has already been the change in attitude that you wanted to see.
    
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    April 10, 2025 5:18pm
  - Jack5
    
    The Brits’ attitude to foreigners half a century or more ago could be arrogant and even rude. I observed that, too.
    
    They didn’t have that on their own. Everywhere, the last immigrant wave tends to face prejudice.
    
    Then there is the whipped up kind, such as the radio campaign in NZ described this way by Donna Chisholm in the Spinoff blog:
    
    1972: On Radio I, sports talkback host Tim Bickerstaff launches a “Punch a Pom a Day” campaign after All Black Keith Murdoch was sent home from Wales for assaulting a security guard. According to writer Phil Gifford, an English woman rang in saying she couldn’t believe Bickerstaff really meant it and began to cry. Bickerstaff told Gifford he waited until 60 seconds of sobbing had passed before snapping, “Stop blubbering you silly Pommie cow.” Bickerstaff had roared with laughter. “Kept it going another six weeks, mate.”
    
    https://thespinoff.co.nz/media/28-01-2021/a-short-history-of-new-zealand-talkback-radio-scandals
    
    Yet at the end of World War 2, more than 25,000 German POW’s chose to stay on in Britain as migrants, the BBC reports, plus thousands of Italian POW’s. Bert Trautman, a German who had been a paratrooper on the Russian front, became a national hero as goalkeeper for Manchester City in the 1956 FA Cup final. He played on after suffering a broken neck. Trautman, who held the Iron Cross, was awarded an honorary OBE.
    
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    April 10, 2025 8:15pm
greybeard

Lots of filth in the House today.
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April 10, 2025 4:47pm
Tauhei Notts

I do not know how to link it but somebody please link Professor Robert MacCulloch’s brilliant post to this site.
It is possibly his best.

[Mod – link added]

https://www.downtoearth.kiwi/
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April 10, 2025 5:29pm
Paul Marsden

Here you go:

https://www.downtoearth.kiwi/post/the-pm-abrogates-leadership-of-nz-today-he-hid-from-parliament-whilst-the-most-vital-treaty-issue?utm_campaign=559b0613

It’s brilliant and sums up my views perfectly and probably those of most of the nation.
If Mr. Luxon thinks this matter is going away, he is mistaken. Badly mistaken.
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April 10, 2025 5:43pm
- Ghost
  
  Most of the nation? What was it, 6% of New Zealanders made a submission? Polling shows this isn’t a top issue for most polled. How about, most of the nation didn’t care and David Seymour failed to actually convince them otherwise?
  
  My predictions for the polls taking this in. National up, NZ First up, act down
  
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  April 10, 2025 6:12pm
Sparrow

The next important poll is the local elections in October and the result of the referendums on Māori wards. I believe the Kaipara district is the only Council in NZ which will not be holding a referendum as that council cancelled Māori wards. The outcome of those referendums will show what the country’s thinking is. Unfortunately it will most likely be a low turnout for local elections. Be interesting to watch.
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April 10, 2025 7:59pm
- Ghost
  
  27 district councils do not have Māori wards. 4 regional councils do not have them.
  
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  April 10, 2025 8:12pm
  - Sparrow
    
    Will they be holding referendums?
    
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    April 10, 2025 8:45pm
    - Ghost
      
      Only those who have introduced Māori wards without polling the voters first have to hold a referendum. So 37 councils will hold one. 5 regional councils will hold one. Two councils and two regional councils have already polled voters and will be keeping Māori wards
      
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      April 10, 2025 9:07pm

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