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January 10, 2025 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 10 January 2025

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General Debate

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Yvette

The National Party, in coalition negotiations, has accepted the introduction of the Treaty Principles Bill as a position allowing it to form a Government (surely a misuse of legislative protocols) but has anyone yet heard or seen any coherent statement as to why National is adamant the Bill should not have a second hearing.
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January 10, 2025 8:06am
- Cassandra
  
  Luxon doesn’t want a fight with the Maoris. He says that the Bill is simplistic. I would have thought that’s a plus. This Bill is an opportunity to define the principles and confirm that sovereignty rests with the Crown.
  
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  January 10, 2025 9:48am
  - Paulus
    
    Luxon may well rue the day he has let his position go forward.
    It will follow him all his possibly short political career.
    
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    January 10, 2025 11:16am
- peterwn
  
  Welcome to MMP, my friend. What protocols? If it was an alleged ‘misuse’ of protocols, Parliament (meaning the MP’s, not the officials or Mr Speaker) would not have allowed to be introduced.
  
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  January 10, 2025 9:56am
- Steve Otto N Shore
  
  Julian Batchelor (stop co-government) says Luxon is an activist.
  He is in bed with Maori.
  Ask him what are his thoughts on Co-Governance. He will tell you what Winston Peters had said, and what David Seymour has said, but he will not give his opinion other than deflecting.
  
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  January 10, 2025 10:32am
- pdm
  
  Yvette – National do not do coherent when it comes to the Treaty Principles Bill.
  
  Fudging is their way.
  
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  January 10, 2025 10:41am
- Philview
  
  I read yesterday a Maori health organisation is sitting on 10,000 paper submissions. Something doesn’t smell right with that claim. There is no doubt the media will claim the public are firmly behind Co-Governance and we will be shafted in the next few years.
  
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  January 10, 2025 11:35am
artemisia

More parents get bills for thousands after accidentally not declaring partners

OK I get that not everyone is experienced with filling in forms. But if people are doing it online or on the phone with IRD, and most will be, it is required to answer Yes or No to the question Do you have a partner. It’s not a difficult question. If not selected the application does not proceed. That does not sound like accidentally or an oversight not ticking a check box.

The amount of WFF is much much higher if there is no partner / income, as witness the amounts IRD is asking to be repaid.

Maybe I have missed something here and happy to be corrected. But IRD has access to a vast amount of information including extensive data matching. Plus very smart systems and increased funding for compliance.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/538592/more-parents-get-bills-for-thousands-after-accidentally-not-declaring-partners
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January 10, 2025 8:06am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  It should be a simple API call to check the two forms. Throwing up an inconsistency early on in the process would prevent overpayment over a sustained period & the associated build up of debt.
  
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  January 10, 2025 8:14am
- MCōs
  
  If Winston can get caught out not declaring a partner it can happen to anyone
  
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  January 10, 2025 8:18am
  - pdm
    
    McCos I think Winston is only a learner when compared to the deviousness of these beneficiaries.
    
    As far as I know Winston erred once.
    To some it is a lifetime of creativity.
    
    BTW Good job Winston was caught but even more so for the lifetime rorters of the system.
    
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    January 10, 2025 8:34am
    - kowtow
      
      One could argue Peters is a lifetime rorter of the system , the political system.
      
      That’s cost billions .
      
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      January 10, 2025 8:49am
      - mogg
        
        Winston had to pay back NZ Super overpayment, after claiming the wrong level for a couple of years.
        
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        January 10, 2025 9:59am
      - David Garrett
        
        Kow: I also dont believe he “made a mistake” in not declaring that he had a partner…the man trained as a lawyer. FFS
        
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        January 10, 2025 1:43pm
    - Cassandra
      
      I don’t think Peters did this to get more money. I think it was carelessness. I’ve actually come to quite like the Great Charlatan.
      
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      January 10, 2025 9:03am
      - Dougal23
        
        He was the only one I remember walking around and talking to the mandate protestors. All the other politicians including National and ACT wouldn’t talk to the people they represent. That damaged my trust in politicians and the authority of the system for me forever. I will never forget.
        
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        January 10, 2025 9:10am
      - kowtow
        
        Dougal23
        
        That’s cos he had the luxury ( or good luck) as events turned out to not be a sitting MP at the time .I suspect had he been the situation would have been very different.
        
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        January 10, 2025 11:26am
    - MCōs
      
      He may have erred a lot more than once
      Here’s the Kiwiblog discussion from the time
      https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2017/08/the_letter_winston_would_have_received_seven_times.html
      
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      January 10, 2025 11:11am
- cmm
  
  If it was just a mistake then you might expect a 50/50 split between people filling it out so they get less money and those filling it out so they get more money.
  
  I’ll place my standard bet of 50 cents and a servo pie it is 99/1 in favour of people getting more money.
  
  I’ll bet that the majority will be seeing that this is free money they can get for a wee fib (aka committing fraud).
  
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  January 10, 2025 8:32am
- peterwn
  
  There was a court case on this some years ago. A woman with kids was in a ‘relationship’ with some thug (she was emotionally dependent on him). She was receiving the benefit of which he took a cut. She was prosecuted for this. The judges (I think it was an appeal) wanted to ascertain the purpose of the Act which was merely to consolidate earlier welfare Acts. They then looked at the preamble to the original Labour 1930’s Act to inform themselves as to its purpose. Given the circumstances of the relationship, the judges ruled that the relationship was not in the nature of a marriage so found the woman ‘not guilty’. It was her thug partner who should have been prosecuted but probably not enough evidence.
  
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  January 10, 2025 10:10am
- Paulus
  
  Am not sure the question is an accident as we start to come into the real world. with at least this part of Taxpayers Social Welfare suspects.
  
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  January 10, 2025 11:19am
- lifesgood
  
  Bloody good that they get stung. I’m fed up with half the country ripping off the poor, long suffering tax payer.
  
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  January 10, 2025 11:28am
Matt Long

By total coincidence, the people in charge of the fire disaster in LA are DEI hires whose mission is diversity not fire prevention.
This has nothing in common with the sinking of the NZ Naval ship.
https://x.com/Sultanknish/status/1877166537557106721
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January 10, 2025 8:10am
- Tauhei Notts
  
  Matt, an uptick is inadequate acknowledgment of a brilliant succinct observation.
  The inference is that you woke wankers can take your crap and stick it right up your arse.
  
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  January 10, 2025 8:35am
  - David Garrett
    
    Tauhei: That’s unusually forthright of you old boy!
    
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    January 10, 2025 1:46pm
- Jethrod
  
  She would put my fire out.
  
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  January 10, 2025 8:41am
- Tomtoddy
  
  I met up with an old acquaintance while travelling yesterday in the SI. He was a fireman for 30 years but retired early. He stated very clearly it was the safety/DEI issues that drove him out.
  
  He said fires that could be extinguished and once were put out easily are allowed to get away and do significant damage because of safety rules or an incompetent person is in charge.
  
  He had no reason to BS me.
  
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  January 10, 2025 9:06am
  - OlderChas
    
    Some years ago my office window overlooked the local fire house. If the siren went off I would sometimes watch to see how long it took the volunteer firemen to arrive, dress and get the engine away Was always mightily impressed.
    One day I was watching, and could actually see the smoke from the house on fire a street away from the fire station. The guys (and girls!) arrived quickly, and I noted some of them standing on the pavement, fully kitted up some even with BA on their backs, pointing toward the fire, but no engine out.
    After about 20 minutes a car screamed into the station, and very shortly afterwards the engine roared off. But noy in time to save the house, which was razed.
    Asking the Station Officer later how come there were no keys to the fire engine in the station (my assumption!) he snarled – “New f@#%^&g rules – only a specially permitted and licensed driver is to drive a fire engine. 5 of those standing around waiting had been drivers before, but didn’t dare drive without the permit from (now) FENZ. Of the three permitted guys, two were away from the region and the one left was working 30 minutes away, so getting there in 20 was pretty bloody good going!”
    So an idiot rule (made after an aged engine with no WOF was rolled by an inexperienced driver in Taupo apparently) cost a family their house. And most of the firies KNEW whose house it was and could probably have walked there to save it but would have had no water to quench the flames with.
    
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    January 10, 2025 11:00am
- Pope Punctilious II
  
  “The LAFD is very diverse. It’s run by lesbians named Kristin.”
  
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  January 10, 2025 12:40pm
Cassandra

Maori on the warpath: 300 tribal and Church leaders are meeting near Hastings to do some planning for their future. Cogovernance: The model is made up of three parts or ‘spheres’ – first an assembly of iwi, hapū and other Māori groups, second the Crown and Parliament, and third a joint deliberative body. The opposition to ACT’s Bill and the car koi etc are all part of the PR. The real stuff is cementing the partnership. Luxon needs to kill this now.
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January 10, 2025 8:10am
- pdm
  
  Where are they Cass – Omahu Pa or Waipatu Pa?
  
  Asking so I can keep well clear today and over the weekend.
  
  Luxon is more likely to do nothing than what you ask – it is Maori after all.
  
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  January 10, 2025 8:36am
  - Cassandra
    
    Omahu.
    
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    January 10, 2025 9:04am
    - Jethrod
      
      Phew!!
      
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      January 10, 2025 10:23am
- Inandout
  
  Cass, do you really expect Luxon to grow a spine over anything Maori? That would be like Starmer admitting that Pakistani gangs rape young girls.
  
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  January 10, 2025 8:48am
  - Cassandra
    
    Hope springs eternal. But he’s cut off his options unfortunately, too dogmatic. He was overawed by the Maoris. Sometimes you have to be a bit more shrewd. He’ll learn but it’s too late for this opportunity to set things right. But Seymour is playing a longer game.
    
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    January 10, 2025 9:52am
    - H. Upmann
      
      Not sure about your “He’ll learn” comment , but otherwise yes.
      
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      January 10, 2025 12:14pm
  - Keith White
    
    In things that make you go “hmmmm….” one has to wonder what staff in Tony Blair’s office at the time knew, and when did they know it…
    
    “….early in 2003, Counterpunch reported:
    
    A child-sex scandal that threatened to destroy Tony Blair’s government last week has been mysteriously squashed and wiped off the front pages of British newspapers.
    
    “Operation Ore, the United Kingdom’s most thorough and comprehensive police investigation of crimes against children, seems to have uncovered more than is politically acceptable at the highest reaches of the British elite.
    
    “In the 19th of January edition of The Sunday Herald, Neil Mackay sensationally reported that senior members of Tony Blair’s government were being investigated for paedophilia and the “enjoyment” of child-sex pornography:
    
    “The Sunday Herald has also had confirmed by a very senior source in British intelligence that at least one high-profile former Labour Cabinet minister is among Operation Ore suspects… The Sunday Herald has been given the politician’s name but, for legal reasons, can not identify the person.
    
    “The intelligence officer said that a ‘rolling’ Cabinet committee had been set up to work out how to deal with the potentially ruinous fall-out for both Tony Blair and the government if arrests occur.
    
    The allegations are the most serious yet leveled at an administration that prides itself on the inclusion in its ranks of a high quota of controversial and flamboyant homosexual men, and whose First Lady, Cherie Blair, has come under the spotlight for her indulgence in pagan rituals that resemble Freemasonic rites…
    
    – end of quote. Much more, very sordid info can be found in the article from September 2023 called “The Franklin Cover-Up” – and indeed, by reading any search results about the Franklin coverup and the books written about it.
    
    Perhaps this Blair-era nastiness is part of the fire the current Starmer-Government is trying to stifle by ignoring the horrible smoke from the current mass-child-assaults scandal.
    
    [Mod – added link]
    
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2003/01/29/are-pedophiles-running-blair-s-war-machine/
    
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    January 10, 2025 10:30am
    - Keith White
      
      Thank you, Mod.
      
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      January 10, 2025 10:47am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Didn’t adern work for Blair during that time? I think she may have been in his press office.
      I wonder if she could shed any light on what went on.
      Openly and transparently of course…
      
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      January 10, 2025 11:03am
      - Paulus
        
        She was in Blair’s Office but never met him as he had some 2,000 there.
        Helen Clark got her the job remember.
        
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        January 10, 2025 11:28am
      - Keith White
        
        Re Ardern and Blair and what was possible for her to know – as Francis Urquhart used to say – “You might very well think that; I couldn’t possibly comment.”
        
        What is known purely in terms of temporal synchronicity, is that
        (a) Ardern worked for Blair in the middle of that decade
        and
        (b) Operation Ore was highly publicized in the UK press between 2003 and 2007.
        
        From Encyclopedia Britannica
        –In 2005 Ardern embarked on an “overseas experience,” an extended—usually working—trip to Britain, which is a traditional rite of passage for the children of New Zealand’s middle and upper class. Instead of labouring in a London pub or warehouse and then touring the Continent, however, Ardern worked for two and a half years in the cabinet office of British Prime Minister Tony Blair.
        — In 2007 she was elected president of the International Union of Socialist Youth (IUSY), a position that took her to destinations such as Algeria, China, India, Israel, Jordan, and Lebanon.
        — In 2008 Ardern was chosen as Labour’s candidate for MP of the Waikato district,
        
        I’m sure the ever-reliable Fourth Estate will make the necessary inquiries and quickly assure Mr All and Mrs Sundry that there is nothing to be seen here.
        
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        January 10, 2025 3:23pm
  - Chuck Bird
    
    “Cass, do you really expect Luxon to grow a spine over anything Maori?”
    
    Should be.
    
    Cass, do you really expect Luxon to grow a spine over anything?
    
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    January 10, 2025 10:55am
- kowtow
  
  Yep and today Hooton in NZME says it doesn’t matter that the constitution is being undermined and costing the economy a fortune.
  
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  January 10, 2025 8:50am
  - Keith White
    
    Hooton gotta hoot. His byline proudly boasts he has “Matthew Hooton has over 30 years’ experience in political and corporate communications” as if that’s a plus, rather than something to be ashamed of.
    
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    January 10, 2025 10:32am
- rjay
  
  Given over 500 chiefs signed the Treaty only 300 seems a bit underwhelming.
  
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  January 10, 2025 8:51am
  - pdm
    
    Only the elite allowed in!!!
    
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    January 10, 2025 9:30am
    - nova
      
      Of course the chiefs who signed are now all dead so were somewhat unlikely to have turned up! And the treaty doesn’t explicitly include forebears, but British citizenship and property rights are conferred to descendants through the normal process. But curiously I’ve never heard anyone complain they they are no longer British citizens, as promised in the treaty.
      
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      January 10, 2025 12:45pm
- Steve Otto N Shore
  
  Luxon will do the usual – nothing. He is a fence sitter and an activist.
  
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  January 10, 2025 9:05am
  - pdm
    
    Probably more nervous fence sitter Ki think.
    
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    January 10, 2025 9:31am
  - Cassandra
    
    An inactivist?
    
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    January 10, 2025 9:53am
    - Steve Otto N Shore
      
      Closet activist.
      See my comment to Yvette at 10.32 above.
      
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      January 10, 2025 10:39am
- John Loveridge
  
  If a bunch of Maoris get together to make a whole lot of noise and hot air and nobody is there to give a shit… ?
  
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  January 10, 2025 10:36am
- Paulus
  
  Ain’t they got no work to go to ?
  Oh I forgot Sick leave perhaps but they will always get it as they are Maori, and no no loss of pay – even if they have a job.
  
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  January 10, 2025 11:24am
- Cantabrian
  
  That is the He Pua Pua model. Nobody has yet explained how Maori rules can/are to be implemented or enforced. Are only Maori to be subject to them? In addition to the law of the land? Using what resources? Will we see Maori police cars or fire engines? Will they enforce different road rules for all or just for Maori.
  Will a 1/16 or 1/8 Maori follow the Maori rules or those enacted by Parliament?
  So many questions – no intelligent answers.
  And the ultimate question – how is Maori separates to be funded?
  
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  January 10, 2025 12:44pm
Benedict Yu

This is the Greenpeace view of the Treaty Principles Bill.

https://www.greenpeace.org/aotearoa/story/how-to-make-a-submission-on-the-treaty-principles-bill/

Not enlightening. However it does reinforce for me a point that I still do not follow. What are the boundaries around Maori “sovereignty” and “self-determination”?

Clearly, the vast majority of laws and policies apply to all New Zealanders. Maori do not have have separate foreign affairs policies. Or a separate Crimes Act. Or separate building codes. So in which affairs are Maori “sovereign”? I can’t imagine that I am the only person who finds this confusing. 🤔
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January 10, 2025 8:17am
- Swifty
  
  Please give them time Benedict. 😃
  
  They haven’t thought that far – after all, they’re just making it up as they go along.
  
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  January 10, 2025 8:37am
- Cassandra
  
  None of them. The Crown is sovereign; that’s why we call it The Crown. National should pass a clarifying Act to put this to bed once and for all. But see my earlier comment re the Omahu meeting. Trouble is brewing.
  
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  January 10, 2025 9:07am
  - Unity
    
    It’s long overdue for us all to be treated the same. It’s totally racist to have special for one group based on part of their ancestry. All ‘Maori’ have more than half of another ancestry in their make-up. The Treaty must be filed away as it achieved its aim almost immediately, bringing Maori under the same laws as the rest of us. The Waitangi Tribunal needs to be disbanded as it achieved its aim long ago and there should be no Maori Roll. We are all New Zealanders and it’s long overdue for us all to be treated the same. Any special treatment should be based on need, not race. Our country is going to continue turning into another Zimbabwe if we don’t stop all the racist separatist nonsense. We are all human beings and are New Zealanders. Full stop!!
    
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    January 10, 2025 9:23am
    - Steve Otto N Shore
      
      The Waitangi Tribunal is a cash cow – the gravy train.
      
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      January 10, 2025 10:42am
    - Paulus
      
      There are no Maori.
      They are all partially related to every national on the earth, but that does not suit them.
      Blood Stupid.
      
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      January 10, 2025 11:31am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    But that is not the prevailing view. The government, at least implicitly, supports the notion that Maori are “partners” with the executive government. Hence my question… If Maori did not cede sovereignity, which AFAIK is the prevailing, rather than a fringe view, from where does the executive government and parliament obtain authority to pass laws for all?
    
    I can’t be the only person confused. I would like to see the government calmly and rationally explain these issues. Like “FAQ on the Government’s position on the Bill”. It is not too much to ask.
    
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    January 10, 2025 10:16am
    - imalwaysright
      
      It is reasonable to expect a Prime Minister to explain why he is for or against a proposal.
      It is not reasonable for a PM to deflect, defer and obfuscate.
      Maybe he has forgotten that, even though he is the manager, we are still the shareholders.
      
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      January 10, 2025 10:30am
      - Steve Otto N Shore
        
        “deflect, defer and obfuscate.”
        He also refudes that.
        
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        January 10, 2025 10:45am
- Suze Wainwright
  
  I don’t understand why Greenpeace is even commenting on this – they’re not a political organization.
  
  Heh
  
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  January 10, 2025 9:17am
  - pdm
    
    Red Russel is not one to let an opportunity slide by.
    
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    January 10, 2025 9:32am
  - John Loveridge
    
    That was once true-ish, going back to their early days protesting at Moruroa and saving whales. But they have become increasingly infected by the woke social justice mind virus. From homely women with moustaches they have degenerated to Chairman Russel. You don’t get more political than that.
    
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    January 10, 2025 10:44am
- PurplePen
  
  It might work if it’s limited to when on their land and in their dealings with other tribes on their land. Presumably funds would then be raised via a tax on people that stay on the tribal land or some other method of obtaining funds to pay the local constabulary etc.
  
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  January 10, 2025 2:44pm
Bridgenag

Leading journalist calls Zuckerberg’s free speech announcement “an invitation to genocide,” EU parliamentarians petition for actions to mitigate the “systemic risk” of Elon Musk, and other lunacies
Germany in particular and the EU in general are losing their minds about American social media and it is not funny anymore.

https://open.substack.com/pub/eugyppius/p/leading-journalist-calls-zuckerbergs?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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January 10, 2025 8:18am
- Benedict Yu
  
  It has never been funny.
  
  “Moderation” of online debate inevitably becomes “censorship”.
  
  Of course Kiwiblog is moderated. It is however designed to stop mayhem and abuse rather than to censor views. That boundary only works in this blog because of the guy who owns it. He is not trying to stop “misinformation”.
  
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  January 10, 2025 8:35am
  - pdm
    
    BY I think I have only had one intervention by the mods since Moderation was stepped up.
    
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    January 10, 2025 8:38am
    - John Loveridge
      
      Wasn’t there a moderator who went a bit over the top and made himself deeply unpopular? Before my time, but I’ve seen many references to him.
      
      The balance now seems very fair, though.
      
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      January 10, 2025 10:46am
      - David Garrett
        
        John: There is still one with an overly heavy hand…uses mod. with a lower case “m”…S/he once told me off for saying “I completely agree”…according him/her that is what the upticks are for.
        
        [Yeah, the upticks are just for the plebs eh. Us important people need to let everyone else know by name. Imagine how many useless affirmations there would be if everyone needed to proclaim their identity. mod.]
        
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        January 10, 2025 1:55pm
      - imalwaysright
        
        Ticks are irrelevant.
        Replies are what make a good discussion site.
        
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        January 10, 2025 3:11pm
- peterwn
  
  Does the other loonies also include some guy who is wanting to invade Panama, Greenland and Canada?
  
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  January 10, 2025 10:14am
  - Steve Otto N Shore
    
    World’s greatest troll. But is he trolling? Hard to tell.
    
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    January 10, 2025 10:47am
    - Keith White
      
      I’d suggest that not being able to tell if someone is trolling or not, is a good indicator of said someone being a Boss-level Troll…
      
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      January 10, 2025 10:49am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Trump is throwing down some ideas and watching for who blinks.
      He’s the man of the moment and many movers and shakers would fall over themselves to get inside his tent.
      He’s just giving them an opportunity to pick sides.
      
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      January 10, 2025 1:01pm
Damocles11

Who commissions ‘Horizon Research’ to carry out this ‘research’? I can’t imagine this organisation does what it does out of the goodness of its heart, somebody is paying the piper. How do these panels that they poll work? Is it the same people over and over? I note they have a ‘Maori panel’ and are include something called ‘ShapeNZ’. Hopefully someone has more info on this outfit and the people behind it.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/new-interislander-ferries-majority-of-kiwis-want-rail-enabled-boats-across-cook-strait-horizons-research-poll/PQLI7WN74RB3LEXQJX7IE5Y6TU/
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January 10, 2025 8:19am
- peterwn
  
  All depends on what questions are asked. Sir Humphrey Appleby is the expert on this sort of thing.
  
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  January 10, 2025 10:17am
- Keith White
  
  I dunno, but I bet our taxes funded it one way or another.
  
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  January 10, 2025 10:50am
- MCōs
  
  The article says the poll results were provided exclusively to the Herald so one would expect they paid for them, wouldn’t you think?
  
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  January 10, 2025 2:57pm
- PurplePen
  
  The article says “48% of respondents wanted new rail-enabled ferries while 28% preferred ships for road freight and passengers only.”. Yet the headline says “Majority of Kiwis want rail-enabled boats across Cook Strait”.
  
  In any case, who cares what NZers think about how a business decides to implement freight transport.
  
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  January 10, 2025 3:06pm
Cassandra

One of the many reports on the Turiana funeral: “The tane created the amo out of mānuka, bound with taura to form the tūāpapa (foundation) on which the papa whāriki sits.” If the author is trying to communicate then I’m afraid s/he is failing miserably. I conclude that actually s/he is making a point. Us and them. And Seymour is accused of being divisive?
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January 10, 2025 8:33am
- imalwaysright
  
  If it were spoken/written in Hebrew or Gaelic or Swahili would you be any the wiser?
  What is the problem with someone using Maori words?
  
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  January 10, 2025 8:59am
  - Cassandra
    
    If the author did use those languages while trying to communicate with someone who doesn’t speak them then s/he would fail. Isn’t the usual purpose of a communication to communicate? Or do you have a different view?
    
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    January 10, 2025 9:57am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Maori is a language of New Zealand.
      If there is a chance of someone hearing or reading a language they don’t understand should the user of the language be admonished?
      
      Should Israelis not speak Hebrew in Israel, Irish not speak Gaelic in Ireland or Africans speak Swahili in Africa lest someone not be able to comprehend them?
      
      I think your presumption that the speaker is trying to, or more likely, should be trying to, communicate with you, is a wee bit conceited.
      
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      January 10, 2025 10:14am
      - Nukuleka
        
        imalwaysright: Except that all the Maori words are contained within a clearly expressed and constructed sentence written and framed in English. This bears no relation to your nonsense about Israelis speaking Hebrew or Irish speaking Gaelic. Very weak comparison, mate.
        
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        January 10, 2025 11:00am
      - Don Beckett
        
        The error you are making is that All Israelis speak Hebrew; a large %age of Irish (70% ?) speak Gaelic; I suspect all the Swahili people speak Swahili. No doubt cmm could tell us how widespread Swahili is throughout Africa.
        Maori is spoken fluently by probably 7% & partially by a further 10%.
        Quite a large difference.
        
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        January 10, 2025 11:12am
      - Cassandra
        
        8 downticks so far is an eloquent response.
        
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        January 10, 2025 11:15am
      - Dave
        
        Don B @11.12
        
        According to Wiki, “ In the 2022 Republic of Ireland census 1,873,997 people or 39.8% of the population in the Republic of Ireland said that they had some ability to speak Irish…”
        
        Hmm, “some ability”.
        
        But also from Wiki, “ It has been found, however, that while ideological support for Irish is high, actual routine use is very low, and that there is very little or rare correlation between personal fluency in the language and the perceived value of Irish as an identity-marker.”
        
        After 90 years of coercion and inducement, the language seems to have reached a plateau. Is there a lesson here for NZ?
        
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        January 10, 2025 1:14pm
      - ChristopherW2
        
        I would be extremely surprised if 70% of Irish spoke fluent Gaelic – much more likely that 70% know a few words and phrases, and that real fluency is about the same as with Maori.
        
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        January 10, 2025 1:51pm
      - cmm
        
        Don: On Swahili.
        
        There are no Swahili people in that there is no Swahili ethnic group (like there is, say, the Zulu people that speak the Zulu language).
        
        What are sometimes called the “Swahili people” are the people of many ethnicities and cultures that inhabit the Swahili coast (the area on the East coast where slavery etc was still rife until approx 100 years ago).
        
        Some call Swahili the pan-African language, but it is ironically a colonial creation – created by the Arabs with approximately 50% Arab words.
        
        When the Arabs arrived in the area and wanted to trade etc, they found that the Africans lacked a written language and the words etc required for trade. They basically invented Swahili as a pigin to be used in the area for trade, administration etc.
        
        Why any sensible person would want to swap out English (introduced by colonists who largely eliminated the slave trade) for Swahili (introduced by colonists who largely introduced the slave trade) is beyond me.
        
        Most of the larger African tribes and ethnic groups (eg. Zulu, Xhosa etc) have no interest in Swahili or Pan-Africanism. They are happily nationalistic within their tribes.
        
        It is mainly those that are from weaker tribes that push for a “One Africa” and speaking Swahili as a single African language. They want this because they come from smaller, weaker tribes and it is their way to try to weaken the power of larger tribes and establish a foothold.
        
        Swahili is a common language in areas where Arabs were tradiditionally stronger (East Africa especially), but most others fill that role with English, French or Portuguese (as per their erstwhile colonists).
        
        I expect it was the same with Esperanto. No doubt Esperanto was pushed harder by the speakers of smaller Western languages and got little traction amongst the English, French and German speakers.
        
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        January 10, 2025 2:24pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        Thank you cmm.
        Very interesting.
        
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        January 10, 2025 3:54pm
  - John Loveridge
    
    It’s the incomprehensible mashup – neither fish nor fowl. Use one language or the other, simple.
    
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    January 10, 2025 10:47am
- graham
  
  What the …
  
  I literally have no idea what the author is trying to say. It is nonsensical.
  
  And good luck to those who say condescendingly, “Oh you just need to look up whatever word you don’t understand.” 🤨
  
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  January 10, 2025 9:09am
  - Paulus
    
    Where can I find a translation as am told at the time of the Treaty Maori dialect knew some 8o words !
    
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    January 10, 2025 11:35am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  My translation…
  
  The men made the framework out of manuka (poles) bound with flax ropes to form the framework on which the flax mat sits (providing the base for the shrouded body which will be wrapped in fine woven flax mats).
  
  There’s been a move in recent times to “decolonize” burial practices…
  https://www.kahuwhakatere.org/
  
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  January 10, 2025 11:28am
Yvette

If the 21st century intellectual and technological wealth of a nation, now of millions of minds, and simply boosted by human development, cannot unravel or understand the intent of those who authored the Treaty of Waitangi and those who signed it, what does that indicate should now be done with the Treaty in response to the division it is causing?

Or the short version:
WTF do you do with a Treaty that cannot be clearly understood?
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January 10, 2025 8:41am
Yvette

Since the Treaty does not refer to Maori tikanga having a place in the law with which the Crown would instil, at Maori request in 1840 terms of protection, why is it only now being introduced, as 1840 protection is largely a settled matter?
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January 10, 2025 8:45am
- pdm
  
  Perhaps Maori did not have ‘tikanga’ in 1840.
  
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  January 10, 2025 9:50am
- Burtland
  
  if we cant understand a treaty that was written in english and maori – how the hell are we are going to unravel unwritten tikanga of various tribes at various times
  
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  January 10, 2025 10:34am
- PurplePen
  
  My understanding was the protection was for what the chiefs asked the King for in their letter to him. Which was from wiping each other out, from unruly settlers and from annexation from the likes of the French or other nations. Nothing more. It wasn’t protection of tikanga.
  
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  January 10, 2025 3:10pm
Yvette

Is anyone actually able to link to or reference a copy of New Zealand Maori Council v Attorney General [1987] 1 New Zealand Maori Council v Attorney General [1987] 1 NZLR 641 (CA), p 667, to give a context of where “akin to a partnership” is first used?
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January 10, 2025 8:48am
- Paul
  
  See https://www.nzlii.org/nz/cases/NZCA/1987/60.pdf
  p.21 “akin to a partnership”
  p. 17 “inherent in the concept of an on-going partnership founded on the Treaty.”
  
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  January 10, 2025 9:43am
CJames

According to RNZ, it is Elon Musk who is stopping UK getting a working relationship with Trump.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/538222/britain-wants-to-get-close-to-trump-will-elon-musk-stand-in-the-way
You mean it isn’t all the TDS comments the Foreign Secretary and PM made about Trump or the PM desparately trying to drive through a Chagos policy that will cost UK hundreds of millions and threaten Diego Garcia?
I note the report is a repost from CNN which explains it all.
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January 10, 2025 8:49am
Cassandra

There is a report today of a staff member of health (sic) charity Hapai Te Hauora, part of the Waipareira Group, delivering 10,000 submission on the ToW Principles bill to parliament. The charity is promoting its opposition to the ACT Bill on its website. These are political actions and therefore quite improper. This charity should be deregistered. I’ve notified Charities Services, which is investigating the Tamihere Empire currently. Note that you are funding this.
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January 10, 2025 9:00am
- mandk
  
  Similarly, Greenpeace are campaigning openly against the Bill.
  
  The government needs to crack down on all these charities that aren’t really charitable.
  
  Apart from anything else, it would be a good source of tax revenue.
  
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  January 10, 2025 9:46am
  - kiwikidsnz
    
    You may remember the 8 year court case it took for Greenpeace nz to be registered as a charity.
    
    “The High Court has ruled that the Charities Registration Board was wrong to refuse to register the group because it had a political purpose…”
    
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/top/423215/greenpeace-wins-court-battle-to-be-registered-as-a-charity
    
    It begs the question as to the precedent for Tamihere/TMP etc?
    
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    January 10, 2025 10:31am
- kevn
  
  Cass…. Their photocopy machine would have been working overtime then getting lots of random signatures.
  
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  January 10, 2025 10:38am
Augustine

There was a very witty contributor who posted under the name ‘Maggie Pie’ on this thread. She seems to have vanished without trace. Does anyone know what happened to her?
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January 10, 2025 9:12am
- artemisia
  
  I think she had a very short ban and decided to take her ball and go home. Pity.
  
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  January 10, 2025 9:49am
  - pdm
    
    Agreed Arty.
    
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    January 10, 2025 9:55am
  - mogg
    
    Maggie Pie’s satire was a real breath of fresh air.
    The very interesting thing about it was how some otherwise intelligent commentators missed the abstract and would get very upset, she of course would continue to wind them up relentlessly, and they still couldn’t see it.
    
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    January 10, 2025 10:19am
    - Swifty
      
      He/she could also be a great pain in the arse with infantile humour and jokes he/she repeated over and over and over….
      
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      January 10, 2025 10:56am
      - mogg
        
        ‘There you go’
        
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        January 10, 2025 11:25am
      - Swifty
        
        You could buy the book Maggie Pie wrote:
        
        https://www.facebook.com/share/1Qf74uZGrt/?mibextid=wwXIfr
        
        I hear Whitcoulls has got it.
        
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        January 10, 2025 3:11pm
    - Augustine
      
      Such a shame. These postings are the poorer for her absence I think. One can only hope that she has a change of heart.
      
      11 4
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      January 10, 2025 11:14am
  - John Loveridge
    
    ‘Tis a pity. I didn’t think she’d throw her tennis racquet right out of the court. I miss the satire. If you’re reading this, Maggie, please come back!
    
    15 3
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    January 10, 2025 10:52am
    - imalwaysright
      
      There are some on this site who still think the Babylon Bee articles from Steve Otto are actual articles.
      
      Maggie let her wit make her points.
      Some couldn’t deal with being demolished with a piss take and a smile.
      
      5 3
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      January 10, 2025 1:12pm
- Bridgenag
  
  I wish she would come back….. Fought with our pro vax friend at one stage
  
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  January 10, 2025 9:52am
  - pdm
    
    Wrong reason for her returning I think Bridge.
    
    Your comment is probably a disincentive for her to return.
    
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    January 10, 2025 10:52am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    “Pro vax”. 🙄 Those things that have saved 200 million lives since 1970.
    
    Maggie Pie did not “fight” with me. She got into problems with the moderators for breaching the comments policy. Simple as that. She was thin skinned on some topics, particularly the Catholic Church.
    
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    January 10, 2025 11:26am
    - mogg
      
      You are rewriting history, Maggie Pie would have you tied up in knots shouting RACISM over nothing at all.
      
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      January 10, 2025 12:01pm
      - Benedict Yu
        
        No wrong. I told her that I objected to being called a “Chinaman”. That’s it as far as I recall. And I never shouted.
        
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        January 10, 2025 12:37pm
      - mogg
        
        You have a very convenient memory.
        
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        January 10, 2025 12:58pm
- Steve Otto N Shore
  
  Maggie Pie – a lot of fun.
  She will be back, when she is ready.
  
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  January 10, 2025 11:10am
- Benedict Yu
  
  She regularly breached the comments policy, testing the patience of the moderators. That culminated in a 24 hours suspension, at which point she disappeared.
  
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  January 10, 2025 11:19am
  - mogg
    
    And that is exactly why she was so much fun.
    
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    January 10, 2025 11:31am
  - lifesgood
    
    I just found her/him annoying. I noticed that towards her/his ban she/he was getting closer and closer to the wire.
    
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    January 10, 2025 11:58am
    - Swifty
      
      It was the racist stuff that really got to me.
      
      Oh and the constant repetition of the same jokes. When you’ve heard about he/her sunning or bleaching his/her arsehole for the 20th time, I’m afraid it became very dreary and boring.
      
      Others may enjoy the sunning and bleaching stories over and over and over – good for them I suppose.
      
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      January 10, 2025 12:16pm
      - imalwaysright
        
        Swifty
        I think the bleaching and the gals at the tennis club and the six dollar each Christmas mince pies were all part of the persona she created as a platform from which to deliver her inciteful humorous ordnance.
        Her targeting system was second to none, as the shellshocked among us well know.
        
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        January 10, 2025 1:18pm
      - Swifty
        
        I’m sure you’re right imalwaysright, but not my cup of tea thanks very much.
        
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        January 10, 2025 2:09pm
- Damocles11
  
  Some thought that the overt racism could not be passed off as ‘satire’, others thought that it was a poor excuse.
  
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  January 10, 2025 11:20am
  - mogg
    
    Watch this and lighten up, it’s all comedy;
    
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IxsZN8_l7cc&list=RDIxsZN8_l7cc&start_radio=1
    
    3 2
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    January 10, 2025 11:54am
- Pineapple Lumps
  
  No doubt at the beach house at the moment. Perhaps they will do the Annual hot cross bun review in February?
  
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  January 10, 2025 4:56pm
Steve Otto N Shore

Greenland and Panama is genius real estate deal.
A bit of Panama history included.
Greenland – pity William Seward didn’t buy it when he bought Alaska off Russia.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/trump-s-scheme-to-take-greenland-and-panama-is-genius-real-estate-deal/ar-BB1r7FpU?
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January 10, 2025 9:37am
Pita

I was amused to read that NIWA’s models predicting a three month hot dry summer had miscalculated…yet other models predicting world’s climate well into the future go unquestioned?
Irony it lost on these people.
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January 10, 2025 9:44am
- Burtland
  
  seems NIWA have come up with a new model for January weather – theyre touting a special La Nina – seems their new supercomputer got it wrong
  
  NIWA chief scientist Chris Brandolino provides further insight “every La Niña is different”
  
  “Last year was New Zealand’s 10th warmest year on record” – so no global boiling
  
  Bandolino 🤡 NIWA 🎪
  
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/538550/weather-la-nina-watch-in-place-for-the-second-time-in-75-years
  
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/538440/watch-live-how-has-2024-fared-in-the-climate-record-books
  
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  January 10, 2025 10:57am
  - Peter Lane
    
    NIWA are full of it. They’ve been banging on about La Nina with very little evidence.
    
    If you take a look at the BOM outlook it’s heading more to El Nino!
    
    http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/ocean/outlooks/?index=nino34
    
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    January 10, 2025 1:00pm
imalwaysright

Removing carbon dioxide from the air could be a trillion dollar industry!!!

https://youtu.be/ROjmT7mKpCQ?si=YTcaPVxna4bvk9DY

I wonder what they will do with the CO2?
Maybe they will dig a hole in the ocean and bury it!
7 1
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January 10, 2025 10:00am
- Don Beckett
  
  The brewers & fizzy drink makers will be able to increase production by a gazillion % 😆
  
  3 1
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  January 10, 2025 11:18am
  - Steve Otto N Shore
    
    Seeing as we don’t have a refinery anymore.
    
    2 1
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    January 10, 2025 12:14pm
- cmm
  
  We already have a technology that removes carbon dioxide. What’s more, it turns the CO2 into food. And people pay for the output!
  
  The technology is called agriculture. Been doing it for about 12,000 years now.
  
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  January 10, 2025 11:26am
  - Paulus
    
    Were they doing it in Nu Tirana pre Treaty signing ?
    
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    January 10, 2025 11:39am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      Yep, between about 1800 and 1840, many Maori moved from subsistence horticulture into commercial horticulture (potatoes, wheat and maize) and the beginnings of raising stock (pigs, at first).
      
      Prior to Cook arriving with piggies and spuds and iron tools, Maori horticulture was pretty rudimentary (no use of fertiliser, limited number of crops, restricted to northern and coastal environments) and pastoral agriculture was non-existent (no domesticated mammals except Polynesian dog and no forage grasses).
      
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      January 10, 2025 12:43pm
  - JackRabbit
    
    And before that the earth was covered in grass, moss and lichens which converted CO2 into O2. Been doing it since the beginning of life on this planet.
    
    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/aug/15/all-hail-the-humble-moss-bringer-of-oxygen-and-life-to-earth
    
    2 1
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    January 10, 2025 12:40pm
- artemisia
  
  Iceland is using Carbfix to turn CO2 into rocks..
  
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  January 10, 2025 3:57pm
Quail

Anyone else see the value judgement of president elect Trump on the TV1 news intro at 6 pm yesterday?
Only bit of the news I saw !
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January 10, 2025 10:00am
- cmm
  
  People still watch TV news? That’s news to me!
  
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  January 10, 2025 11:27am
mogg

Reform and Farage are now polling equal first place, Tories 5 points adrift in third place. More than 70% of voters concerned about mass immigration as Starmer blames everything on mythical Far Right bogeyman, and refuses to talk about it.
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January 10, 2025 10:25am
Inandout

The real Karen Boss expose is sickening to read.
https://9gag.com/gag/aBydoZ2
2 0
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January 10, 2025 10:28am
Ghost

Climate and Change accompained by Global and Boiling starting fires in california

https://x.com/hubermanlab/status/1877236580676493784?
3 0
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January 10, 2025 10:31am
Don Beckett

According to reports, it’s a man-made disaster.

https://the-american-catholic.com/2025/01/09/man-made-disaster/
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January 10, 2025 11:22am
- MCōs
  
  Of course it’s a man/woman made disaster
  The vast majority of fires, in California or anywhere else, are started by arsonists, but they don’t take hold if the conditions aren’t right.
  From what I understand there’s been no rain in the area for nine months plus 100mph+ gales.
  
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  January 10, 2025 12:04pm
  - Graeme Hall
    
    Two other suggestions were offered by a man who had just lost his house.
    
    1. Drug addled homeless people starting fires in the morning to warm themselves.
    
    2. Live power lines blown down by the winds.
    
    Last night Adam Carolla said he drove from Malibu to Glendale when the winds were crazy and there were power lines lying everywhere. He was afraid of a pole landing on his car.
    
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    January 10, 2025 1:54pm
- Keith White
  
  Nope, Don, it’s woman-made.
  
  Karen Bass.
  Kristin Crowley.
  Janisse Quinones.
  Gavin Newsome.
  All XX-chromosomed.
  Trust me, I studied biology…
  
  5 2
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  January 10, 2025 12:33pm
  - Don Beckett
    
    Sincere apologies for being gender specific & not displaying my embrace of diversity & inclusion.
    This is Don/Donna/Donny /Donald signing off me/my/his/her /their comment on this subject. 🙂
    
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    January 10, 2025 1:13pm
Steve Otto N Shore

Tunnel found at US/Mexico border.
I would say this is not the only tunnel. Where is that el Chapo dude?

https://conservativeadvocacy.com/secret-drug-tunnel-discovered-near-border-wall-raises-alarms/?
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January 10, 2025 11:24am
- cmm
  
  Joe and [Mod – deleted] put the tunnels out of business by laying on planes and airconditioned buses.
  Why get dusty and sweaty in a tunnel when you can go in comfort?
  
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  January 10, 2025 11:29am
Steve Otto N Shore

Biden being a right nasty prick. Of course it will be Obama behind it all.
Worst US President ever.

https://patriotpowerednetwork.com/biden-bans-new-offshore-drilling-sets-stage-for-energy-clash-with-trump/?
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January 10, 2025 11:29am
Keith White

We may not have the option to say no to a JODAD next time

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2313892

“We conducted a double-blind, controlled clinical trial to evaluate the safety, side-effect profile, and efficacy of immunization, by means of mosquito bites… falciparum parasite developed into the liver stage.

“Participants were exposed to the bites of 15 or 50 infected mosquitoes (stage A), healthy adults who had not had malaria were randomly assigned to be exposed to 50 mosquito bites per immunization of GA2, an early-arresting parasite (GA1), or placebo (bites from uninfected mosquitoes) (stage B).

“After the completion of three immunization sessions with 50 mosquito bites per session, we compared the protective efficacy of GA2 against homologous P. falciparum controlled human malaria infection with that of GA1 and placebo.

“The primary end points were the number and severity of adverse events (in stages A and B) and blood-stage parasitemia greater than 100 P. falciparum parasites per milliliter after bites from GA2-infected mosquitoes (in stage A) and after controlled human malaria infection (in stage B).”

The authors are soooo happy that they could induce some partial and temporary malaria immunity this way, they just ignore that they gave people the disease malaria first.

Foxtrot Foxtrot Sierra.
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January 10, 2025 11:46am
- imalwaysright
  
  Jab of disease and death?
  
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  January 10, 2025 1:26pm
  - Keith White
    
    Can be – I originally coined it as Jab Of Damage and Death, as I saw so much of both, back when I was still in practice.
    
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    January 10, 2025 3:29pm
- JackRabbit
  
  Or the other option is to ignore all that research and make Ivermectin available without a prescription at your local pharmacy for $5.
  
  Malaria is caused by a parasite carried by mosquitos. You cannot vaccinate against parasites, any more than you can vaccinate a dog against worms.
  
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  January 10, 2025 2:09pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    Before the Scamdemic Ivermectin was in the top 5 on the Essential drugs list on the WHO website.
    They recommended that all people have access to ivermectin at very low or zero cost.
    
    Here’s some NZ specific info
    https://pharmac.govt.nz/news-and-resources/official-information-act/official-information-act-responses/ivermectin-special-authority
    
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    January 10, 2025 2:23pm
JamesSamuel

Does anyone know when we’ll get some idea of the proportion of submissions, one way or the other, on Seymour’s Treaty Principles Bill? It won’t be straightforward, one imagines. Apart from those simply pro or anti, there will doubtless be a number taking an alternative approach (e.g. Liam Hehir’s submission a couple of days ago).
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January 10, 2025 11:51am
- MCōs
  
  As someone pointed out the other day they’re submissions not votes.
  As the old blues song goes ‘it ain’t the meat it’s the motion’
  
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  January 10, 2025 12:09pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    I wonder if it would have been a good idea to require each submitter to print Yes or No on the top right of their submission to declare their position.
    A simple count would be a useful objective safeguard to what is currently a possibly subjective process of interpretation of what can run to several pages each and still be ambiguous.
    
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    January 10, 2025 12:28pm
    - MCōs
      
      What you’re asking for defeats the purpose of the select committee which is to scrutinise and recommend changes to the legislation before it is passed by Parliament. It can also initiate its own inquiries.
      With regards to this particular bill this piece in the Spinoff about James Meager is very interesting
      https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/06-12-2024/meet-james-meager-the-man-left-holding-the-treaty-principles-bill#7329?utm_source=spinoff-share-button&utm_medium=spinoff-web-mobile
      
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      January 10, 2025 1:09pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  The Ministry of Justice will prepare a “departmental report” analysing the submissions. That usually takes about 3 weeks but might be longer in this case.
  
  Just watch online for “Departmental report on the Treaty Principles Bill”.
  
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  January 10, 2025 12:40pm
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Each submission will have to be checked as to whether the submitter has provided a valid name and address, does not contain racist abuse, threats or nasty profanities.
    
    It may take some time…..
    
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    January 10, 2025 12:49pm
- Steve Otto N Shore
  
  Over 300,000 I read, when the Govt computer overloaded last Tues 7th at 11.59pm.
  The time was extended to Tues 14th at 1pm.
  
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  January 10, 2025 12:50pm
Biscuit

I see that name suppression for the lowlife who murdered Nelson police officer – granted, you may remember so that family members who weren’t aware of his arrest might be forewarned – was due to expire tomorrow.

But…

The lowlife-in-question’s lawyer has now sought – and been granted – an extension of the name suppression until said lowlife’s appearance in court on February 14.

The latest excuse is that naming said lowlife before then is because media reports and online commentary ‘could’ risk a fair trial.

Colour me astonished…

Are there still apologists out there who think the lawyer in question isn’t just having a laugh at decent folk?
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January 10, 2025 12:45pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  If the offender has known prior form for using a car dangerously and/or violence, it may be difficult to convince a jury that his killing of the police officer is manslaughter and not murder.
  
  If an offender has the slightest reason to argue for a mistrial then they’ll often use it…and clog up the justice system for yonks.
  
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  January 10, 2025 12:55pm
Swifty

I’ve come across a Leo Tolstoy quote recently:

“I sit on a man’s back choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am sorry for him and wish to lighten his load by all means possible… except by getting off his back.”

So neatly sums up the NZ Labour, Green and Maori party MPs and all their taxpayer-funded supporters.
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January 10, 2025 12:59pm
- Don Beckett
  
  Echoes of the frog & the scorpion.
  
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  January 10, 2025 1:21pm
- MCōs
  
  That quote comes from 1886 and describes the social inequality of the time in Russia.
  
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  January 10, 2025 1:44pm
  - Swifty
    
    It describes the modern NZ left better however.
    
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    January 10, 2025 1:49pm
- cmm
  
  I expect Trosky was referring to aristocracy riding on the peasants’ backs.
  
  Ironic that things have done a 180: now it is the socialists riding the productive man’s back and the coservatives are calling for revolt.
  
  It makes one wonder: what would some of the socialists of old make of their modern counterparts? Has Left gone so far around the bend that they are now Right (part of the reason I detest this oversimplified Left/Right paradigm).
  
  For example some of the things Trotsky stood for are solidly libertarian and could fit on an Act policy sheet. Of course there are many others that wouldn’t.
  
  One thing that Trotsky called for was a state of permanent revolution. It would seem that he understood that a socialist government would essentially form its own elite class that would essentially become a new corrupt dictator class that replaces the aristocrats with something worse.
  
  All very well, but permanent revolution is not stable and economically productive.
  
  Still, like all these socialists, he had a few loose screws so perhaps we shouldn’t expend too much effort in making sense of him.
  
  Ditto Labour, Greens, TPM – don’t try to make too much sense of the irrational.
  
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  January 10, 2025 3:23pm
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Swifty was quoting Leo Tolstoy…aka Count Lev Tolstoy
    
    quite a different chap from Leon Trotsky..aka Lev Bronstein.
    
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    January 10, 2025 4:10pm
    - Swifty
      
      Thank you Maggy.
      
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      January 10, 2025 4:45pm
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    I expect Trosky was referring to aristocracy riding on the peasants’ backs.
    
    Tolstoy owned Yasnaya Polyana – a large estate of 1600 ha – worked by 350 peasant families.
    
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    January 10, 2025 4:23pm
Morgan H

A growing number of people are saying this Government will only last one term. I agree with others that National + Act + NZ First will not be enough. But I think we are looking at something worse. Act is stealing voters from NZ First and if this continues then we won’t have NZ First in parliament.

This means if Luxon wants to stay in power he will need to make a deal with either the Greens or Maori Party. The Greens aren’t smart enough to make a deal with National. The Maori Party have only been out of opposition when working with National. You might say this Maori Party is more radical now than then, but that only means they’ll get more out of Luxon.

Maybe another party will surprise us. TOP could enter parliament in the next election and change up the status quo but I’m not too hopeful.
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January 10, 2025 1:48pm
- JackRabbit
  
  A growing number of people are saying this Government will only last one term.
  
  [1] Who are these people?
  [2] What percentage of people are these? How many e.g. I talked to 40 people and 10 said it?
  [3] What is the demographic? Unionists? Watersiders? CEOs?
  
  Facts please!
  
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  January 10, 2025 2:01pm
  - Morgan H
    
    Are you saying you haven’t seen any comments saying that or similar? Especially on right-leaning blogs?
    
    Weird thing to focus on, but okay.
    
    Do you disgaree with the other things I said?
    
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    January 10, 2025 2:33pm
- rockape
  
  I will be able to live with Nat 35% and ACT on 15%. I don’t see right wing votes going left, however I do see the fear of LAB, Green, Maori driving more centerist to the right.
  
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  January 10, 2025 2:19pm
  - Morgan H
    
    I don’t see the Nats staying that strong. Especially if Act were that high. I think we’re all hoping on that fear but the Left in America believed fear of Trump would bring people towards them.
    
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    January 10, 2025 2:31pm
- cmm
  
  Morgan: I partially agree there – the coalition is rather weak and is nowhere near the strength of the Key government.
  
  But to lose, the other side would have to be stronger. It is not apparent to me that the current Labour/Green/TPM mess is strong at all. They are weakening faster than National et al are!
  
  NZ tends to be a year or two behind the trends. We’re seeing a global rightward swing with Starmer, Biden/Harris, Trudeau in the junk heap and it looks like many others queuing up too. By the time the next election comes along, NZ will probably see it wants some of the same.
  
  But who knows… there’s still 18 months to go.
  
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  January 10, 2025 3:28pm
  - Morgan H
    
    The trend is more a swing against incumbents/status-quo. Starmer’s victory last year was a rejection of the Torys rather than a victory of the Left.
    
    If NZ First doesn’t get above 5% then we’re left with either NAT-Act-Maori or Labour-Greens-Maori. I don’t see Labour talking with Act to stop either outcome.
    
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    January 10, 2025 3:55pm
MCōs

For a free feed of fish n chips I’d back Trump taking over NZ
https://x.com/ronfilipkowski/status/1877441545424498743?s=46&t=XZLqGbhN-xeYzprhTaktsg
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January 10, 2025 1:59pm
- JackRabbit
  
  If your price for selling sovereignty is a feed of fish and chips, what will you do for a bucket of KFC? Take the jab?
  
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  January 10, 2025 2:04pm
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Nearly 4 years down the track, and you are still obsessed with the COVID vaccines. You don’t need to have it. Feel free to get COVID. However introducing the topic at every opportunity as a negative is pathetic.
    
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    January 10, 2025 3:19pm
    - Keith White
      
      “Mirror, mirror, on the wall…”
      
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      January 10, 2025 3:31pm
    - Steve Otto N Shore
      
      Thankyou Benedict for making me feel free to get Covid.
      Had a sniff so tested positive. Had a test another day because my partner had a sniff. I was positive and I was not even sniffing.
      Covid vaccine was a crock of shit and just commie Ardern’s control freak takeover of NZ especially locking down Auckland.
      Fuck her for doing that to us.
      
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      January 10, 2025 3:46pm
      - MCōs
        
        This popped up on Facebook yesterday from an American doctor I knew in Bangkok who runs a clinic with wife who is also a doctor
        
        Update on Nico’s Health:
        As some of you know since Nico caught COVID (Delta Variant) in June of 2021, he’s developed chronic health problems his pediatric pulmonologist says is likely Long COVID.
        This means he’s been afflicted with a variant of asthma which wasn’t present before he developed COVID pneumonia. He doesn’t wheeze, like most asthmatics do. He developed a chronic cough, fatigue and decreased appetite.
        As recently as a few days ago, his medications have been reduced as he slowly recovers. He still takes inhaled corticosteroids (every other day) and a mild antihistamine each evening.
        We anticipate he will eventually come off all meds but no one knows of the longterm implications of him being ill this long. Time will tell.
        (Photos from June 2021)
        I stayed with him in the COVID ward. I initially tested negative but developed COVID pneumonia within a couple days of living at the hospital. No doubt I received a massive viral load, being both unvaccinated (vaccine not available yet) and overweight.
        Ultimately Nico was hospitalized for 2 weeks. Me, 3 weeks.
        
        Judging by the photos the little fella was 1-2yo at the time so covid can affect anyone quite severely and one person not being badly effected can’t be projected to cover everyone & vice versa.
        
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        January 10, 2025 4:11pm
surfing

So many slow road works going on — it’s getting more difficult to drive from Tauranga to Auckland with multiple worksites impacting every route.

The problem I have is the length of time it takes to make minor road fixes. A simple pavement resurface seems to take 6 weeks now.
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January 10, 2025 2:29pm
- Steve Otto N Shore
  
  The longer it takes the more the job lasts, so more pay.
  Can’t rush these things you know.
  Then you have to wait for the road cone Army to make it all safe so the workers don’t get splashed with water – or insults.
  
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  January 10, 2025 3:41pm
- MCōs
  
  Summer is road works season. The work could be done faster if NZTA had the money to pay the contractors to work a ton of overtime
  One imagines they have X amount of dollars to splash around and the folks around Mid Canterbury would be real happy if it was all spent up there while they wait and wait for a new bridge at Ashburton
  
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  January 10, 2025 4:25pm
Steve Otto N Shore

Did Inspire have another attack?
Things crapped out for me about 1pm. All good now.
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January 10, 2025 2:58pm
Steve Otto N Shore

Another from Julian Batchelor of Stop Co-Governance.
This is a little different, just a thanks, and showing how it has grown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzmq7dhj46I
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January 10, 2025 3:24pm
Steve Otto N Shore

10 more things that Trump wants to rename.
USB ports will be USA ports.

https://babylonbee.com/news/10-more-things-trump-plans-to-rename?
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January 10, 2025 3:31pm
Steve Otto N Shore

Check Engine Warning Light changed for Women.

https://babylonbee.com/news/new-check-engine-light-for-women-will-show-ryan-goslings-face-so-theyll-actually-pay-attention-to-it?
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January 10, 2025 3:34pm

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