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November 26, 2024 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 26 November 2024

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General Debate

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Maggy Wassilieff

I remember a fellow teacher telling me that it would be 25 years (1 generation) before the NZ Education Department would admit that their NCEA qualification was NOT a world-leading way of assessing a pupil’s learning.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/534796/ncea-level-1-not-working-ero-calls-for-another-overhaul
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November 26, 2024 8:07am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Surely the answer is to simply licence an overseas qualification system that works well. Maybe from the UK, Victoria Australia, Singapore, whatever. Then sack everyone at the Ministry responsible for the current mess.
  
  BTW I would do exactly the same with the curriculum. Why on earth does New Zealand need it’s own maths curriculum? Pay Singapore a licence fee. Or Estonia. There are probably ten to choose from.
  
  I don’t understand why the government does not deal to this outfit.😩
  
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  November 26, 2024 8:24am
  - Cassandra
    
    There’s a lot the Government could do. Why do we have a Ministry of Maori Development? Women’s Affairs? And as for funding the Royal Society and the Marsden I’m speechless. But as you recommend, a start with Education should have happened on Day One.
    
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    November 26, 2024 8:30am
    - Mark Hanley
      
      Bang on Benedict.
      
      An alternative would be to recruit someone from the UK, who was responsible for implementing their education system, to do the same here, no need to pay royalties.
      
      Then sack everyone in the MOE!
      
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      November 26, 2024 8:40am
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        An alternative would be to recruit someone from the UK,
        
        I recall that a UK import was responsible for much of the constructivist approach to the NZ science curriculum introduced in the 1990s. He seems to have been blighted by his experience of not getting into a grammar school upon sitting the 11+.
        
        He had no awareness that NZ’s schools (at that time) did not run on the same social class-competitive system.
        
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        November 26, 2024 10:30am
  - Taieri
    
    Surely the answer is to simply licence an overseas qualification system that works well.
    ———-
    
    And not just that. The way NZ health system is being managed is scandalous. The colossal waste there is simply unbelievable. Yet, there are comparable countries that do it well; why don’t we use their experiences?
    
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    November 26, 2024 8:33am
    - EssenX
      
      Because we’re different… except every country that has rapidly modernised, industrialised or improved the way they do things (whether that be Japan or Poland) looked offshore and copied what worked. Unfortunately, in NZ whether we’re building houses or teaching kids, we try to do it bespoke, which we simply don’t have the scale to do.
      
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      November 26, 2024 10:26am
  - Paulus
    
    Because over the years Helen Clark decided who to appoint to run her Education Department – now they are as big as any Mafia, who have no intention of listening to anybody with whom they disagree, and their senior staff are scared stiff of not accepting from the top as to what is actually happening – and they are paid more than in the Privare sector.
    
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    November 26, 2024 8:42am
  - Grunter
    
    The existing Government monopoly of NZ schools has failed just like all other Government monopolies that have existed. Until we get rid of the Ministry of Education completely we will continue to see failure.
    
    Fund the pupil not the school is how successful countries operate schools. Let the market decide. It really is as simple as that.
    
    Of course, that solution will never be adopted in NZ. If you want a proper education for your children they need to live somewhere else.
    
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    November 26, 2024 8:57am
    - Flossie
      
      I would seriously like to know how funding the pupil would work.
      Does the Tax Payer give money to the child’s parent/guardian and the child is sent off to the best school possible. Or do certain adults add the funds to their drug/drink pot and forget to send the child to any school at all.
      
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      November 26, 2024 10:17am
      - EssenX
        
        It’s not that hard. Effectively, the parents have a voucher that can be redeemed at a school. The parents then have choice where to enrol. School gets funds by cashing enrolling the student.
        
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        November 26, 2024 10:28am
  - Suze Wainwright
    
    Te Tiriti…?
    
    (And maths (and Buddha knows any number of other subjects) is racist).
    
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    November 26, 2024 8:59am
  - GazzaW
    
    Many Catholic primary schools have been using a Singapore maths curriculum for some time. I’m not sure what the contractual details are or for how long the Singapore system has been in place but I assume that the initiative was taken during the Ardern years.
    
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    November 26, 2024 9:03am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    That would mean the Education Department would lose control.
    Can’t have that in the Aotearoa socialist utopia. Rely on another Country to do things properly? No way.
    
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    November 26, 2024 9:19am
  - RoboRob
    
    With regards to the MOE. They have announced that the text books for the new curriculum will be delayed. Apparently demand was high and they will be unable to supply books to some schools until mid term 1.
    
    Comments
    
    1. Demand is not unexpected. The MOE knows exactly how many students did NCEA L1 maths this year. Apparently there will be less dioing it next year as schools pull out of NCEA L1.
    
    2. We are talking about printing text books. There are dozens of NZ print shops that could print a few thousand books within weeks (and be happy for the business). There are Chinese (and other) print shops that would be happy to print 100,000 or so text books and would ship before Christmas.
    
    So what is the real reason why some text books cant be supplied?
    My money is on either mismanagement at the MOE where some pleb ordered from a supplier who cant supply on time OR budget constraints. I suspect more likely its mismanagement. Either way, heads should roll and I am talking at the top level. Where is the normally awesome Erika Stanford on this?
    
    p.s. Before people say ‘the minister cant just sack the CEO’, that’s right wing ass covering BS. If the minister cant directly sack the CEO they can certainly sack the Board and replace them with one that will sack the CEO.
    
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    November 26, 2024 9:26am
  - EssenX
    
    Great suggestions from both of you. You two could be the Musk and Ramaswamy of NZ and make some simple but very effective changes.
    
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    November 26, 2024 10:25am
- Inandout
  
  Maggy, after listening to Luxon speaking with Hosking this morning I have kind of lost hope that this Coalition will make any sweeping changes. The PM is full of ‘you knows’ but is very reluctant to be nailed on any issue. He keeps harping on about NZ being deep in debt but won’t slash any areas wasting taxpayer money.
  
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  November 26, 2024 8:49am
  - Sacha
    
    I’m surprised you could hear the PM under the continual shouting from Hosking.
    Excitedly repeating the same question, more shrilly and with increasing volume doesn’t make for good listening.
    Not to mention that it’s bad manners to shout at your guests.
    
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    November 26, 2024 10:22am
- Burtland
  
  Labours Oscar contenders for “who can create the biggest mess” has a new front runner 🏆 MoEd – Tinetti/Hipkins 🏆
  
  Current leaders
  MoHealth – Clark/Hipkins/Little/Verrall
  MoPolice – Nash/Hipkins/Woods/Williams/Andersen
  MoMaori – Mahuta/Jackson
  MoFinance – Robertson
  
  The contenders are so numerous we may need new special categories
  – biggest fiscal mess, biggest individual mess, most communities affected
  Mother of all fxxkups is already awarded to Cindy
  Lifetime fxxxup award to Geoffery Palmer
  
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  November 26, 2024 8:51am
  - RoboRob
    
    Dont forget the awfull Megan Woods who has left us with a dire energy shortage and up coming massive power bill price rises.
    
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    November 26, 2024 10:12am
- Colinxy
  
  Does anyone know who were the “brains” behind NCEA or were they faceless and unaccountable bureaucrats?
  
  It would be interesting to know if Paulo Friere’s (Neo) Marxist thoughts got injected into it. It would explain why it is so poor at educating children (it isn’t supposed to, Friere’s pedagogy is turn students into Marxists).
  
  There have been Frierean idiots in NZ long before NCEA got off the ground – people like Sue Bradford and Catherine Delahunty amongst others. Where being actually educated is considered Bourgeoisie.
  
  We sought inspiration and guidance from the teachings of Paulo Freire and educators like Frs Filip Fanchette and John Curnow who brought the tools of Freirean structural analysis to Aotearoa in the 1980s.
  
  Bradford’s own words.
  
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  November 26, 2024 8:57am
  - Burtland
    
    introduced under Trevor Mallard and Clark starting 2002
    
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    November 26, 2024 10:17am
- Dave
  
  NCEA is just one more example of NZ educators’ credulous and naive search for a magic bullet which would end failure, their reluctance to sceptically assess programmes with empirical evidence and then acknowledge, ‘Oh no, fooled again!’
  
  As a former teacher (31 years in NZ, 10 overseas) I’m with BY @ 8.24. We should stop thinking how special we are and stop trying to reinvent the wheel – instead start using what can be shown to work overseas in fact rather than in (critical) theory.
  
  Edit: this was intended as a reply to MW’s 8.07 comment.
  
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  November 26, 2024 9:31am
Simon

Just vote / support ACT. National well on the way to becoming Pre-Trump republican party or even much worse the UK Conservative party. Its over.
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November 26, 2024 8:10am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  You can stick act where the sun don’t shine
  
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  November 26, 2024 8:29am
  - sirknz
    
    Dunedin in winter is still a Labour town.
    
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    November 26, 2024 8:38am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Well Taieri only went Labour this time by a 1000 votes, last time by 13000, if Act and NZF stood aside Nats e we oils have romped
      
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      November 26, 2024 9:40am
  - Grunter
    
    G – you’ve never explained why you are so anti-ACT (maybe Ive missed it?). Is it their free-market policies? Their freedom of choice policies? Or do you just dislike Seymour’s quirky/annoying personality?
    
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    November 26, 2024 8:59am
    - thirteenstars
      
      It’s a tenet of faith amongst Nat stalwarts that every vote ACT gets is a vote stolen from National. It’s pathological with many of them.
      
      ACT Derangement Syndrome.
      
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      November 26, 2024 9:46am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      I am not anti Act this is the problem, I have given my party vote to act before. The problem is fools demanding we vote Act, I am do dick of people not realising the election is won in the centre, centre voters or voters that can go either way will never vote act. And as for his ridiculous comment that Nats are like Trump is the stupidest thing I have ever heard, if anyone is close yo Trump it is Seymour.
      
      I hope this makes you understand my point of view, as I said I don’t dislike Act, it’s arrogant people telling me who to vote for.
      
      The alternative, is Labour, Greens and TPM all in cabinet
      
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      November 26, 2024 9:50am
      - RoboRob
        
        Voting National OR Act works equally well to prevent a left wing block.
        
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        November 26, 2024 10:15am
      - john1234
        
        As long as the party achieves 5% or an electorate MP then taking a vote from NAT to ACT isn’t a problem for a centre right voter. It is simply a small nudge to the right. It doesn’t benefit the LAB/GRN/TPM axis of evil.
        
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        November 26, 2024 10:17am
  - rouppe
    
    Any specific reasons for that view?
    
    For example, I refused to vote NZ first last election because it was Winston that gave us Jacinda, and there was a candidate that thought the COVID vaccine made you emit 5G signals.
    
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    November 26, 2024 9:07am
  - Yabster
    
    dumb comment of the day? National need a strong ACT as it has bugger all coalition partners- esp when Winnie pulls stumps.
    
    By all means stand up for National but don’t be politically naive.
    
    Voted National all my life except last election party voted ACT and voted for the National candidate. National in my opinion are too soft on many issues- so I voted ACT to give them more backbone!
    
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    November 26, 2024 9:15am
    - RoboRob
      
      Exactly the same story. I am glad I voted Act becuase this iteration of National seems to lack any kind of back bone. I will be voting Act next election at this rate too.
      
      I voted National for my local MP but I am considering voting Labour next time. I dont give a F who they put up, if you are not going to represent your local electorate I will punish you.
      
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      November 26, 2024 9:31am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Not a dumb comment, I understand the election is won in the centre, I am so sick of people dictating my vote, I don’t do it to them, as I said above I use to give my party vote to Act which was a waste of time, and centre NZers will never vote Act. I am entitled to my opinion, I am just do sick of the arrogance of the new act voter, where were they when I was wasting my party vote?
      
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      November 26, 2024 9:53am
  - pdm
    
    Is that because they have the motivation and commitment to get things done and a monopoly on good legislation G?
    
    Jealousy?
    
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    November 26, 2024 9:17am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      No, it’s simply because the election is won in the centre, not on the right
      
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      November 26, 2024 9:54am
  - David Garrett
    
    G: Perhaps you could explain your reasons for that harsh statement?
    
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    November 26, 2024 9:18am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Simply because I am sick of people telling me who I should vote for. I use to give my party vote to Act, it turned out to be a waste, yes I did party vote Act when you went in on the list.
      
      I hope this helps you understand my point of view, I d as m over arrogance of people dictating what I should think.
      
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      November 26, 2024 9:56am
- peterwn
  
  So all the Hikoi has done is to give David Seymour a high and make him look even better. Perhaps the Treaty can be ‘interpreted’ to allow David to be kicked out of his hapū.
  
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  November 26, 2024 8:30am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Where did all the we rent a mob go?
    
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    November 26, 2024 8:32am
  - lastmanstanding
    
    Dont be surprised if the Maori Party dig up their dead to make submissions against the Treaty Principles Bill.
    
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    November 26, 2024 8:58am
    - pdm
      
      Ah – the fellow at Te Puna as per the following.
      
      https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360492909/no-winners-3-year-dispute-between-hapu-and-landowners
      
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      November 26, 2024 9:20am
      - Dave
        
        Burial places are special to many cultures and superstition is rife but:
        
        “He told the court that Pirirākau viewed Tahataharoa as a living tupuna (ancestor) that was essential to the mauri (life force) of the hapū, and without knowing where paramount chief Tutereinga was buried, all of the area was wāhi tapu (sacred).” (My emphasis.)
        
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        November 26, 2024 9:47am
  - imalwaysright
    
    The hikoi, hakas and the media sponsored tub thumping by Tamihere’s Funding Fodder has done nothing for their cause, whatever it is.
    
    All it has done is expose how coddled and entitled they actually are.
    
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    November 26, 2024 10:21am
Fisiani2

On Friday 29th and Saturday 30th November Bats Theatre Wellington presents at 6.30pm a one hour play followed by Q and A with 8 older actors playing Just Before We Go. Tickets are just $15
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November 26, 2024 8:20am
- Flossie
  
  If anyone is into theatre I thoroughly recommend the current production of Nell Gwynn at 16th Avenue in Tauranga. Excellent show!
  
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  November 26, 2024 8:39am
  - Bridgenag
    
    The blokes at bowls reckon the ASB theatre in Auckland has gone woke and do not go after decades of subscribing. Peter Pan was so bad…..Captain Hook was a grey headed female. He said the only good thing was the crocodile. Vowed never to go again
    
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    November 26, 2024 9:21am
    - Sparrow
      
      Tell the blokes at bowls that traditionally the male lead in pantomimes has always been performed by a female. Tell them not to spill their G&T,s
      
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      November 26, 2024 9:35am
- Blog-aholic
  
  Are they renaming it Old Bats Theatre for the event?
  
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  November 26, 2024 9:01am
kowtow

I’m convinced NZME Herald has someone from the Maori Party writing their editorials on any matters Maori .

Today they have a go at the police minister over that march ,because he’s rightly concerned about police neutrality .

They tell us anyone concerned about images of police painting protest banners etc are “ugly racists” .

Concludes by saying essentially that police engaging in political activity at the march are upholding the treaty etc

All the more reason for a referendum . Let the people decide .This has gone too far.And the editorial is simply more evidence of exactly what Seymour says about our constitution being determined and interpreted by Elites .
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November 26, 2024 8:39am
- RoboRob
  
  As I said yesterday with regards to TVNZ and RNZ, these organisations are infected with progressive liberal elites and Maori activists. You will never see a story critical of the Maori side of a dispute in any of the MSM.
  
  I know that Maori are / were great pacifists and really cared for the environment before the evil white colonists arrived with the wheel BUT I am pretty sure they are human and not right about everything.
  
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  November 26, 2024 9:37am
- keepcalmcarryon
  
  Also was it an editorial written by a human or another AI job?
  
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  November 26, 2024 9:45am
Swifty

Lately I’ve seen and read numbers of people on the Left bemoaning ACT’s influence in the current government – that their influence outstrips the 8(?) percent of people who voted for them.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/534800/act-wielding-disproportionate-influence-in-government-seymour

I wonder how many of these people are MMP supporters and how many actually voted for MMP? I’d say most if not all.

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

Not only was this widely discussed as a potential feature of MMP when we were talking about moving from FPP – it was lauded by MMP proponents as a major reason for bringing MMP in – that minorities of people could have their voice heard and represented in Parliament! Something that FPP denied them.

What I’m increasingly now sure of though is that these proponents only had in mind a gaggle of left-wing minority parties, like far-left, Green or ethnic parties etc coming in under MMP – they didn’t conceive of right-wing parties coming in and thriving – and now that they have to both see and endure it they have realised they don’t like it one bit!

Well, suck it up luvvies. You wanted it and now you’ve got it. Good and hard.
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November 26, 2024 8:45am
- Gussy Fink-Nottle
  
  Those bemoaning ACT’s apparently outsized influence will be heartened to know that their most contentious policy – The Principles of the Treaty Waitangi Bill – is subject to a referendum.
  
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  November 26, 2024 9:57am
Grunter

Listening to Nicola Willis last night on Heather du Plessis-Allan made me gag a bit. I have always thought Willis might be part of the common-sense solution crowd – but nah, she is “one of them”.

She was explaining why our increasing debt and increased Govt spending was so much better than the last lot, some girl maths logic about “we are increasing spending at a slower rate than Labour….”

It just reinforced to me that NZ has few chances remaining to thrive. Big Govt is here to stay.
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November 26, 2024 8:51am
- kevn
  
  Grunter… Indeed.
  https://www.downtoearth.kiwi/post/finance-minister-willis-challenges-downtoearth-kiwi-to-give-her-ideas-about-how-to-break-monopoly
  
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  November 26, 2024 9:52am
peterwn

“A Ponsonby chief executive accused of bashing a pensioner in an alleged road rage incident involving a $430,000 supercar says he is not that wealthy, has finance to pay on his car, and is suffering severe stress at the prospect of being publicly identified.”
Oh diddums. He should have thought of that before he used his fists. The consequences he is going to suffer are no different from what any ordinary person is going to suffer. If he is stressed at the prospect of being identified he should seek appropriate professional assistance. If he is ‘not wealthy’ a good start would be to sell his supercar and buy something more modest. He will also probably claim that the sky will fall unless he is discharged without conviction.
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November 26, 2024 8:57am
- Blog-aholic
  
  He could borrow against his mortgage for an appropriate cultural report……..
  
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  November 26, 2024 9:02am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Picked on a pensioner just because he lost his rag.
  Would he have tried the same with a fit 25 year old?
  Coward. Name him.
  
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  November 26, 2024 9:27am
- RoboRob
  
  The guy is scum.
  
  With that out of the way are all the comentators down on this guy becuase he is rich?
  
  Sure he should pay the price for his actions but what price would it be if he was the usual gang member lowlife doing this? Certainly it wouldn’t be selling his Harley to pay a fine and being publicly named would be bonus street cred.
  
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  November 26, 2024 9:42am
Yvette

Then, this month Hauraki Waikato and Te Pāti Māori MP Hana Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke interrupted the first vote on the Treaty Principles Bill in Parliament house by launching into the haka ‘Ka Mate’.

More recently, departing All Black half-back TJ Perenara, reignited fiery debate around ‘haka’ in sport and the role it plays in the political spectrum after leading ‘Ka Mate’ in the teams match against Italy.
As he launched into the haka, Perenara said “Toitū te mana o te whenua, toitū te mana motuhake, toitū te Tiriti o Waitangi,” a statement which affirmed Māori sovereignty and the enduring significance of Te Tiriti o Waitangi.
_____

Some may wish to explain the difference between these two – while others, like the vast audience in Milan, may be blissfully unaware of either.

Abbiamo il nostro problema, il rugby è una via di fuga
we have our problem, rugby is an escape route
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November 26, 2024 9:00am
- pdm
  
  My complaint to the NZRU.
  https://nominister.wordpress.com/2024/11/25/my-complaint-to-the-new-zealand-rugby-union-re-the-haka-and-flag-incidents-on-sunday/
  
  Link to complaints form is here:
  https://www.nzrugby.co.nz/about-nzr/complaints-management-service
  
  Get into it – the more the merrier and the more likely someone at NZRU will take notice.
  
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  November 26, 2024 9:37am
  - RoboRob
    
    Not likely. The NZRU is woke as F. Remember they are the ones who wanted female and Maori quotas on the board.
    
    Get woke go broke. Is it a coincidence that rugby in NZ is on a slow and consistent downward trend?
    
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    November 26, 2024 9:44am
  - Burtland
    
    NZRU seems to like apartheid
    – supported it in the 1980s with the Springbok tour and now with Perenara
    
    does Dame Patsy support racism?
    
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    November 26, 2024 10:05am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

How to speed up deportation in the US.

https://babylonbee.com/news/tom-homan-introduces-family-size-immigrant-trebuchet-to-speed-up-deportation-process?
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November 26, 2024 9:03am
In Vino Veritas

Arrogant, ignorant prick. If he can’t hold his temper in a car incident, then he won’t be able to do so in his job. Name him, and perhaps he will get fired.
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November 26, 2024 9:10am
rouppe

Kim Dot Com has had a stroke.

Now we’ll never get rid of him, and he’ll cost the health system bigly.

Our governments couldn’t even do that right.
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November 26, 2024 9:11am
- RoboRob
  
  Yup. The last Labour govt sat on their hands for a couple of years and didnt sign the extradition docs. The current govt did finally sign them earlier this year but our legal system is such that the guy is still here now and probably gets another 3years or so before the process restarts now.
  
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  November 26, 2024 9:48am
Burtland

Looming crisis in gas industry – no gas – who would have thought halting exploration had consequences – thanks Megan thanks Jacinda

Vector wants the government to use regulatory tools or some other method to help it recoup its pipeline investments and afford to maintain gas services, even if there’s an exodus of users.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/environment/534807/gas-supply-shrinkage-sparks-fears-of-suburban-shortages
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November 26, 2024 9:13am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Should be in jail but she ran away. No penalty whatsoever for what she did to NZ.
  
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  November 26, 2024 9:31am
Bridgenag

What Kennedy Must Do to Defeat Regulatory Capture
By: Bretigne Shaffer

https://open.substack.com/pub/rwmalonemd/p/what-kennedy-must-do-to-defeat-regulatory?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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November 26, 2024 9:13am
Bridgenag

The blokes at bowls reckon the ASB theatre inn Auckland has gone woke and do not go after decades of subscribing. Peter Pan was so bad…..Captain Hook was a grey headed female. He said the only good thing was the crocodile. Vowed never to go again
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November 26, 2024 9:20am
- Bridgenag
  
  sorry somehow got here twice Was in reply to F and F
  
  Maybe delete Mods
  
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  November 26, 2024 9:28am
trout

HDPA at 1zb pointed out to the ‘up – himself’ Chris Finlayson that his much vaunted Tuhoe settlement was more of a takeover by Tuhoe than co-management of Te Urewera. She reminded him of the (unlawful) demolition of huts and general lack of (paid for) maintenance. Finlayson’s response was to tell us the DOC had a member on the Board. A good example of how DOC has become subservient to iwi wishes. In other parts of the North Island access once promised (and legalized by way of easements) is now being denied; locked gates, vandalism, etc. DOC just lie down and watch it happen. If foreshore is vested in Maori public access will be maintained – yeah right!
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November 26, 2024 9:44am
kevn

I don’t want the Mods deleted.
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November 26, 2024 9:54am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

What are “different rights?” Then she says “separate rights”
I read that as racist rights.
Video, interview with Jack Tame. Packer is getting almost as good as Ardern by deflecting answers with word salad.
Next it will be “I grew up in a middle class………….”

https://centrist.nz/debbie-ngarewa-packer-admits-maori-have-different-rights/?
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November 26, 2024 10:02am
Swifty

DPF – my sincere condolences for the news today.

I know how far you guys go back.

Best wishes.
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November 26, 2024 10:21am

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