General Debate 25 November 2024

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Yvette

State Religion or Government secularity?

Caleb Anderson: The Emergence of a State Religion and the Deification of the Treaty
The following piece was first published in 2022

… There has been unrelenting pressure in recent decades to expunge Christian prayers, and allusions, from public life, and from the various agencies of state, most particularly schools. A clear message has been delivered by prominent parliamentarians, that Christianity should be a private and not a public matter. Christians can share their beliefs within, but not beyond, those of similar mind. Even the Speaker of the House was successful in having all references to Jesus removed from the official parliamentary prayer. The Prime Minister was happy to have the Muslim call to prayer broadcast nationally after the Mosque attacks, while her antipathy to Christianity remains palpable. And yet all of these voices have appeared conspicuously silent when it comes to karakia. How might we explain these paradoxes? What is really going on? Should we be concerned?

… The founders of the United States were explicit. The first amendment reads as follows “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof …”. Many of those migrating to the new world were escaping religious persecution in their homelands …

… I believe that we should be very concerned about the creep of pantheistic religion into public life. Increasingly, references to things spiritual have been used to silence debate, or to fill the gaps when logic, reason, and facts are lacking. Not infrequent assertions that the Treaty is a spiritual taonga, vested with mystical power, in and of itself, is a clear effort to make the arguments of its most animated adherents uncontestable. When you move into the realm of the mystical, reason no longer applies, and familiar democratic safeguards can be progressively dismantled.

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/caleb-anderson-the-emergence-of-a-state-religion-and-the-deification-of-the-treaty

ACT’s Bill
Non-existent Article 4 –

The New Zealand Government and all its services should be secular (religiously neutral)

“When you move into the realm of the mystical, reason no longer applies, and familiar democratic safeguards can be progressively dismantled” which should now apply to te Ao o Maori – the Maori religious word-view, that now needs to be put back into it individually or group practiced pre 2017 Bottle, instead of invading so much as it does – the Maori Advisory Council (two new members appointed recently), tikanga and the law, real-estate, the Waitangi Tribunal, maramataka (“the turning of the moon”) and mental health, and Competence standards for pharmacists 1.1.1 Explains the relevance of te Tiriti o Waitangi to the provision of health care and how its implementation may help pharmacists contribute to equitable health outcomes for Māori

The New Zealand Government and all its services should be secular
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November 25, 2024 8:01am
- Cassandra
  
  “Our senior justices have taken up a particular Left cause: Māori underperformance. Rather than address the reason for this (dysfunctional aspects of Māori culture), they are attempting to level the field by elevating Māori to a position of legal privilege.” From a commentary in n how judges have elevated themselves to a philosopher-king (and queen) status.
  
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  November 25, 2024 9:06am
Scott

Yesterday I posted about Winston Peters post on X about new restrictions on the use of puberty blockers on young people.
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2024/11/general_debate_24_november_2024.html#comment-3648555

Act has also weighed in on the issue and the new Ministry of Health guidelines advocating for a much more cautious approach to the use of puberty blockers.

https://www.health.govt.nz/news/additional-safeguards-for-puberty-blockers

Both Act and NZ First noted that the govt has opened the door for consultation so the people have the chance to weigh in and have their say.

https://consult.health.govt.nz/strategy-and-policy/safety-measures-for-the-use-of-puberty-blockers-in/

These are welcome developments. Many of us would need a lot of convincing that Betty can just decide to be Bob and Barry can just decide he is really Brenda. And we as taxpayers should pay for it? 🤔
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November 25, 2024 8:02am
Bridgenag

Sunday Strip: The Ghost of Future Past –
Let freedom ring.

https://open.substack.com/pub/rwmalonemd/p/sunday-strip-the-ghost-of-future?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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November 25, 2024 8:04am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Close to a COP out.
92 participants from NZ – for what?

https://peterallanwilliams.substack.com/p/close-to-a-cop-out
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November 25, 2024 8:06am
- Lipo
  
  In my fantasy world where I am the Dictator of NZ. I would put all there people on trial for Treason
  
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  November 25, 2024 8:49am
- imalwaysright
  
  S.O
  The theatrics of the walkout were well planned by all participants.
  The purpose was to demand an astronomical amount of $1 Trillion initially, and then “reluctantly” settle for a paltry $300 Billion.
  ($300,000,000,000.)
  All of that will be divided up between the climate scam organisers and the already rich third world representatives.
  
  Luxon will be applauding the performance…
  
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  November 25, 2024 8:51am
  - cmm
    
    Whatever they settle on is going to be topped up again and again.
    
    I guarantee not a penny of that gets through to the starving masses on the ground.
    
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    November 25, 2024 9:47am
- Benedict Yu
  
  My god even Chloe and James Shaw went. 😩
  
  Disclosure. I have been a member of the New Zealand COP delegation. More than once. However the last occasion was just before John Key became Prime Minister, so a while back. I have also attended COPs in the late 1990s, representing the private sector in other countries.
  
  In the New Zealand delegations, IIRC there were about 12 of us. That included one person from an environment NGO and one person from an industry NGO. There were certainly no Opposition MPs or folk from the Green Party.
  
  So what did we do? It was mostly technical and boring. We would negotiate arcane rules about counting emissions to try to get the best deal for New Zealand. Sometimes successfully. You might find yourself in a room at 3am negotiating some arcane accounting rule about forest sinks. It was not a junket and I have no desire to ever do it again. 😩
  
  All countries at the COP are members of a bloc. New Zealand is a member of the “Umbrella Group”.
  
  The Group is made up of Australia, Canada, Iceland, Israel, Japan, New Zealand, Kazakhstan, Norway, Ukraine and the United States. The United Kingdom formally joined the group in 2023.
  
  The Umbrella Group traditionally tried to get the best outcomes for high income non EU countries.
  
  Anyway, if New Zealand did have more than 90 folk there it was insane. And what did Chloe do?
  
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  November 25, 2024 10:08am
Swifty

“Campbell said the Polynesian Panthers popularised the beret as a freedom symbol in New Zealand in the mid-1970s, spurred by protests against the Dawn Raids. While hats are a Western symbol, they have been widely adopted and reimagined as a symbol for Māori.

On Tuesday, he saw numerous variations of the beret at the hīkoi in Wellington, including slanted berets and beret-style caps.

“The look has been re-adopted and recontextualised to support the kind of movement that we have going on now.”

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/534644/hikoi-hats-why-are-so-many-people-wearing-red-berets

Isn’t this classic cultural appropriation?

More stinking hypocrisy from the Left.
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November 25, 2024 8:08am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Che Guevara look alike idiots.
  
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  November 25, 2024 10:12am
kiwikidsnz

The Standard have published their “paint by numbers” guide for their acolytes submissions to the Treaty Principles Bill

https://thestandard.org.nz/a-guide-to-making-a-submission-on-the-treaty-principles-bill/
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November 25, 2024 8:09am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Well thanks for that. I can only drop by that blog about once yearly. It quite literally makes me feel ill. I tried commenting there a few years ago in my usual polite and moderate fashion 😀. Someone named Lynn or Lyne? banned me. That was after someone else called me a Nazi. 😕
  
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  November 25, 2024 10:12am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Lynn. Man with a girl’s name according to Whaleoil.
    
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    November 25, 2024 10:15am
Swifty

I wonder if overnight our news media talked about ‘costs to New Zealand families’ rather than ‘costs to government’ people might be not quite so blasé about government spending:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/534700/climate-finance-nz-could-face-hefty-bill-as-new-funding-target-agreed-at-cop29
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November 25, 2024 8:10am
- Benedict Yu
  
  It is a shake down.
  
  Who is going to pay 300 billion Per Year in perpetuity?
  
  The USA is out. Not China. So it will be Canada 🇨🇦, Australia 🇦🇺 Japan 🇯🇵 the European Union 🇪🇺 New Zealand 🇳🇿, the rich non EU European countries, and who else? Not Argentina 🇦🇷.
  
  That is not many countries to raise 300 billion annually.
  
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  November 25, 2024 9:52am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

DC Swamp Crisis: DOGE Caucus Founder Unleashes Scathing Truth.
Video 5 min.
Looks like the “swamp creatures” are not very happy. 440 Govt Agencies – doing what?

https://americanvoterpolls.com/dc-swamp-crisis-doge-caucus-founder-unleashes-scathing-truth/?
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November 25, 2024 8:10am
- Benedict Yu
  
  I do not hold extreme views regarding New Zealand public servants. I have worked with many excellent folk. However I have also been exposed to many useless folk.
  
  There were about 65,000 core public servants when the government came to office. That does not include Crown entities. IIRC, the government has cut about 8,000.
  
  I think that the Government could cut another 20,000.
  
  Take my favourite topic. The Ministry of Education. It has 4000 staff. It should be broken up into three small agencies with a total of about 600.
  
  I am much less familiar with the Ministry of Social Development. It has 9,000 employees. Has it ever had an efficiency audit?
  
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  November 25, 2024 10:23am
nygr

Next minute the All Blacks will be promoting anti gay or legalise dope whilst standing in front of the Palestinian flag.
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November 25, 2024 8:12am
pdm

No wonder the All Blacks are playing such crap rugby (no matter how well Italy played) when the team and apparently management allow Political views to override the preparation and importance of a Test match.

My view is here:
https://nominister.wordpress.com/2024/11/24/hey-razor-what-the-hell-is-going-on-with-the-all-blacks/

ps. at the time of writing I was not aware the Haka was apparently endorsed by the team Coach’s and Management.
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November 25, 2024 8:15am
- Yabster
  
  well if it was endorsed by Coach and Mangement- then Fuck the AB’s- (never thought I would say that)- TJ has always been a shit stirring lil nob- piss of to Japan your slow pass won’t be missed.
  
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  November 25, 2024 8:21am
- Terry Dalee
  
  Never mind the fundamental constitutional crisis that NZ faces over questions regarding equality of citizenship and the sovereignty of the government….
  
  The sky starts to fall in NZ when the All Blacks start losing…..
  It’s a pretty sad indictment on NZ and the apathy of the majority of the NZ population that that’s what it took to get people to take notice…
  You get what you deserve …
  
  Go Italy
  
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  November 25, 2024 8:22am
- kowtow
  
  Yep , they should stick to their principal purpose .
  
  Selling over priced sweat shop produced merchandise to low IQ “sports” fanatics.
  
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  November 25, 2024 8:25am
- Paulus
  
  At last Perenara has foxtrot oscared to Japan.
  Is he even a Maori as there are no Maori anyway ?
  Why does New Zealand All Blacks have to be tarred with this stupid media inflated, and supported fiasco.
  I did not know the ABs had a Cultural Advisor just for their inflated Aotearoa affairs.
  Pity about the poor quality Rugby as well so diversion is appropriate.
  
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  November 25, 2024 8:28am
- Prince
  
  Are we to believe that all members of th e touring party agree with TPM/Greens/Labour.
  Or has anyone with opposing views been bullied to acquiesce ?
  As is likely, this may explain why the team is playing as though they have just met. There is no cohesion, no agreed game plan, no ’14 men finding space for the 15th.’
  Time to clear the air, get personal grievances and politics out of the way, and concentrate on the basics of the game. Pace, Position, Possession.
  
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  November 25, 2024 8:32am
  - cmm
    
    “Or has anyone with opposing views been bullied to acquiesce ?”
    
    As are:
    * Anyone working for government.
    * Anyone working for a large private organisation.
    * Anyone seeking public office of any kind.
    *…
    
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    November 25, 2024 9:24am
- Mod88
  
  There is going to be a big hit for the NZRFU over this financially and I suspect the All Blacks themselves as the obvious comparison is there is a NZ Maori Team the separatists and their followers have to make Political Statements. Heaven forbid we had a NZ European Team, just imagine the outcry.
  
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  November 25, 2024 8:40am
  - MCōs
    
    We sent NZ European teams to South Africa on several occasions
    In 1970 Māori players were included for the first time as honorary whites
    Weren’t they lucky
    
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    November 25, 2024 9:34am
- Yabster
  
  I have emailed the NZRU -asking them if the coach and management approved the Haka wording and asked about the team pic re the Maori flag- if true the AB’s will no longer have my support.
  
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  November 25, 2024 8:56am
artemisia

Will Wellington mayor Tory Whanau stand again as promised on several occasions? Herald today (paywalled):

Has Tory Whanau changed her mind about running again for Wellington’s mayoralty?- A Capital Letter by Georgina Campbell.

Whanau has always maintained she wants to spend three terms as the Mayor of Wellington.

And then –

(Nick) Mills wanted to know if she was still keen on a second term … “Nothing has changed,” Whanau replied.But then she said: “I’ll be having those conversations with family and friends at the right time.”

Anyone want to take a guess? Bearing in mind good chance she would be elected as mayor again.
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November 25, 2024 8:16am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  What else could she do?
  
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  November 25, 2024 8:22am
  - Suze Wainwright
    
    Management consultancy.
    
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    November 25, 2024 8:30am
  - pdm
    
    No 4 on the Green Party list.
    
    I don’t think they currently have a dipsomaniac.
    
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    November 25, 2024 8:36am
  - all true
    
    She should resign
    
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    November 25, 2024 8:47am
  - Taieri
    
    What else could she do?
    ————–
    
    Pak’n’Slave are always on the lookout for good staff. But, if nothing else, they require punctuality…
    
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    November 25, 2024 9:01am
    - Flossie
      
      Yeah but they want GOOD staff…
      
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      November 25, 2024 9:48am
- peterwn
  
  She would not stand unless she thinks she will win. She will no doubt discuss with friends and associates (especially The Post editor) the chances of success. She would most probably have polls (not Curia) done.
  Years ago in Auckland long time Mayor Robbie did not bother to read the tea leaves in his last Mayoral election and crashed out badly. If he realised his days were numbered he could have retired honourably from the Mayoralty.
  
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  November 25, 2024 8:42am
- Gussy Fink-Nottle
  
  Whanau completely underestimated the role (“I thought, as Mayor, you could fly under the radar”).
  
  She won’t be running again.
  
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  November 25, 2024 8:43am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  My guess is she will stay. Right now she is just keeping her name in the leftist media.
  
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  November 25, 2024 8:43am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  She will read the room and run like Ardern
  
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  November 25, 2024 8:59am
Yvette

Behind the Banner: Inside the hīkoi mō te Tiriti

At the centre of concerns is the ACT Party’s Treaty Principles Bill, which aims to legally define the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.

Ngātiwai leader Aperahama Edwards walked solemnly at the front of the group. He wore a traditional pākē harakeke (Māori rain cape), used for both protection and shelter.
Alongside him walked Te Pāti Māori co-leader, Rawiri Waititi, and Waititi’s wife, Kiri Tamihere-Waititi [1], who was one of the organisers of the march.
She felt bittersweet at the sights of Auckland appearing through the drizzle.
“<b<I want to cry. You can hear all of our whānau behind us. We've got all of our babies here, and it's for them.
"We've been so traumatised as a people, and it's really hard to see, it's really hard to feel, and it's really hard to endure.”

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/534594/behind-the-banner-inside-the-hikoi-mo-te-tiriti

Hana-Rāwhiti Maipi-Clarke told the crowd this hīkoi was never about the billshe tore up in the House, instead it was about unity. …
Te Pāti Māori co-leader Rawiri Waititi referred to the haka in Parliament last week against the Act Party’s Treaty Principles Bill that was shared around the world. “Thanks to Hana, the whole world is watching.”
He then used his moment at the microphone to rally the troops.
“Where to from here? Yes tino rangatiratanga is ours but we have to have a kāwanatanga strategy. Get on the Māori roll. Each and everyone has a responsibility to our mokopuna to turn up and ensure we don’t have a fascist government like we do today.”
https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/11/20/the-people-were-speaking-seymour-couldnt-hear-them/?

_______________
[1] It is possible that security agencies will be closely monitoring Kiri Tamihere-Waititi, the wife of Māori Party Co-Leader Rawiri Waititi. and daughter of John Tamihere, who became president of the Māori Party in June 2022

She declared, “They’re (The Government) doing everything and they’ve got the f***** power to get rid of us. And while you’re thinking about that, you might as well also start thinking about how we’re going to take our country back too. We’re continuing to subscribe to a model that was designed to assimilate, to continue to colonise, and to keep us as second-class citizens in our own country. By design, we are not unified. Right? Just imagine, just take one f***** minute of your day to imagine if we were all on the same page. Can you imagine the might and the power that we would have? We could overthrow any government. We could do whatever the f*** we wanted.”

Her expletive-laden social media rant, urging Māori to overthrow the government, wasn’t just a step too far—it was potentially illegal.
https://www.chrislynchmedia.com/news-items/opinion-is-kiri-tamihere-waititis-expletive-laden-video-a-national-security-threat/.
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November 25, 2024 8:16am
- Flossie
  
  I would really like them to explain exactly how Maori are disadvantaged. In this country Maori have the same rights as anybody else, plus extras. For example yesterday I saw a billboard advertising the Maori Sports Awards. Maori are not excluded from any of the other sports awards.
  Those constantly shouting about how they are oppressed should have a look at successful Maori in other countries, like Australia, and ask how is it possible when they are not afforded any additional rights there.
  
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  November 25, 2024 9:55am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Border Czar Homan sends his first message.
The last border czar laughed, this one means business. No amnesty, no excuses.
When you are ordered removed, you are going to leave.
MAGA.

https://pjnewsletter.com/trumps-border-czar-sends/?
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November 25, 2024 8:16am
Yvette

Guest Post: Peter Ellis Case Blows Up New Zealand – Twice

Summary
Male primary school teachers are rare, with 85% of teachers being female (2022). This is concerning as boys, especially the 20% living in female-only households, need male role models. Societal dysfunction and rising crime are linked to this absence. Meanwhile, senior justices focus on Māori underperformance, attributing it to systemic privilege rather than cultural issues. Justice Cooke’s 1987 description of the Māori-Crown relationship as a “partnership” has evolved into legal precedence, now influencing government policy.

In 2022, the Supreme Court’s invocation of tikanga to quash Peter Ellis’s convictions further strengthens Māori custom in law, raising concerns about Māori supremacy.

• A crucial point here is that judiciary took a break of several weeks to consider the matter of tikanga. Peter Ellis’s memory suffered not only from the taint of previous legal error, but the present involvement in a studied agenda.

Simple Western respect and dignity of reputation, even after death (legacy), has been turned into legal cultural misappropriation and a premeditated agenda?
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November 25, 2024 8:21am
NeverMindTheBollocks

Shell Lane (The Terrace) bike rack report:

At 8.20am, zero bikes.

A calm, warm morning in the Capital, glorious for cycling. If you don’t cycle now, you never will.
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November 25, 2024 8:32am
kowtow

NZME Herald use a photo of a prank on the front page to again whip up hysteria and attack the coaltion.

The accompanying story quotes someone called Dr Catherine Leonard of Ihi Research saying the gang patch ban risks undermining trust between the police and gangs.

WTF?

ps that Copper better worry about leakers within the ranks.
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November 25, 2024 8:33am
- cmm
  
  Unfortunately Leonard is probably correct.
  
  I expect there is collaboration between the Mongrel Mob and the police.
  
  For the most part the “tough on gangs” work from the police has been directed at smaller gangs who are the MMob’s enemies.
  
  Sure, once in a while there’s also some activity agaist MMob, but that’s probably the Mob feeding the cops someone they want to get rid of anyway.
  
  Like professional wrestling, I suspect the story we are being told is vastly different to what is really happening under the hood.
  
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  November 25, 2024 9:31am
greenfinger

How many businesses and their employees have lost their livelihoods in Wellington since Tory came into power. There you go, there is your answer as to who you should not vote for in the 2025 local body election! Bottle this up and make your vote count on 11 October 2025.
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November 25, 2024 8:34am
- MCōs
  
  Is that Tory or the Torys?
  
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  November 25, 2024 9:29am
imalwaysright

Tvnz have been doing extended daily updates on the Aussie teenage girls who died from alcohol poisoning in Laos.

The 8 year old maori child murdered by, as yet unidentified, scumbag/s in Whakatane recently barely gets a mention.

Are Tvnz racists perhaps ?
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November 25, 2024 8:44am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Woke Pentagon officials are panicking over this showdown with Donald Trump.
“President Joe Biden injected wokeness into every area of the federal government including the military.
The Department of Defense became a massive sociology experiment under his administration. ”
DEI is out on it’s ear. How can you have a strong Military with that nonsense?

I hope Trump goes back to supporting Veterans. Democrats treat Vets like shit.

https://patriotpulse.net/woke-pentagon-officials-are-panicking-over-this-showdown-with-donald-trump/?
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November 25, 2024 8:54am
Scooter

Not a surprise after seeing the 2 female cops helping paint the hikoi protest banners. Who else in the public service is hiding in plain sight, actively undermining the government?

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/national/photos-of-police-officer-wearing-gang-patch-spark-controversy-days-after-ban/
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November 25, 2024 8:56am
MCōs

Keep politicians out of sport
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-demand/video/john-key-moments-three-way-handshake/
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November 25, 2024 8:56am
kevn

mcos… Ah, 2016, thanks for the memories.
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November 25, 2024 8:58am
- MCōs
  
  It was the RWC 2011 at Eden Park and the real hero was Beaver who kicked what turned out to be the winning penalty
  The three way hand shake was an amusing side show that Mr Key is still trying to explain away
  https://www.instagram.com/reel/DB5fAmZJl9Q/?igsh=MTgwOHp5NnRrejZkbg==
  
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  November 25, 2024 9:20am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

More on Homan.
He will deport with or without co-operation from sanctuary cities.
How long before the Democrats realise that Trump is going to do what he says he will?

https://conservativeadvocacy.com/trump-appoints-homan-as-border-czar-to-lead-largest-deportation-effort-in-us-history/?
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November 25, 2024 9:10am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Cruz Promises Fully Secured Border by Next February.
Video 4 min.
“People want a strong America that stands firm with its allies and believes in the potential of its citizens. As Cruz replied to questions about immigration, his tone suggested he sees this issue not just as a talking point but as a calling. The electorate appears motivated by real concerns, and according to Cruz, they expect action.”

https://politicalactionalerts.com/cruz-promises-fully-secured-border-by-next-february/?
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November 25, 2024 9:19am
krazykiwi

I see the petition to call a new General Election in the UK has passed 1.5m entries.
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November 25, 2024 9:35am
- Bridgenag
  
  Glad you are back Krazy Just need Maggie Pie as well…….
  
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  November 25, 2024 9:38am
cmm

I really don’t understand people like this…

Only buy a car for $50k+ and try to keep it mint if you can afford to do so.

Then he can’t learn the $16000 lesson first time and drives over the same roads again. Surprise, surprise… same results!

Roads are not pristine environments. Expect your car to get a few chips and dings. If you get upset by that then buy a $10k car.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nzta-under-fire-as-northland-mans-car-suffers-32000-damage-from-roadworks/IVWUEHPWOFEO3FQXR4XOGSWJMU/
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November 25, 2024 9:38am
- MCōs
  
  Likewise don’t buy new carpet if there are toddlers in the house
  Stick with the old one and enjoy the kids
  
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  November 25, 2024 9:47am
Bridgenag

DOGE this
an aristocracy fails in the matrix

meet brian. brian is a self-styled “media personality” from MSN and other venues.
brian is frightened.
i chose him because he seems an apt and representative example of a viewpoint emerging in response to the increasingly apparent roadmap of elon and vivek’s “DOGE” as others start to see what certain internet felines were discussing the other day about what’s coming to DC.
what’s interesting is how much we agree on what’s in store for the swamp.
obviously, there is some divergence on how we feel about it.

https://open.substack.com/pub/boriquagato/p/doge-this?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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November 25, 2024 9:45am

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