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November 20, 2024 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 20 November 2024

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General Debate

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NeverMindTheBollocks

In all of the coverage of yesterday’s hikoi, I did not hear a single rational explanation of why people were marching. Sure, it was clear that they opposed David Seymour’s bill, but not why. Many seemed to think that he is wanting to abolish the Treaty, which is just not true. This inability to articulate ideas while relying on inchoate emotionalism illustrates the paucity of their case.
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November 20, 2024 8:01am
- Grunter
  
  Yes, and one of the worst offenders is Luxon. Today on Hosking…” it’s too simplistic”. What the hell does that mean??
  
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  November 20, 2024 10:03am
  - Odakyu-sen
    
    A common dilemma for translators.
    
    “I know what he said, but what did he mean?”
    
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    November 20, 2024 10:50am
  - Keith White
    
    It means it gives Luxon no room to wriggle, wiggle, prevaricate or slipslide away from the facts of the case in favour of the Bill.
    
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    November 20, 2024 10:50am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    It sounds like an Ardernism.
    
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    November 20, 2024 11:00am
  - cmm
    
    Well the issue really is very, very simple:
    
    Are we a single nation, with equal citizenship, equal under the law with equal rights and duties? Or are we a divided nation with different laws, different citizenship etc?
    
    Do we see all NZers as competent people, equally deserving of opportunity? Or do we see Maori as somewhat lesser people who need an uneven playing field to be able to cope?
    
    Attempts to muddy the water and pretend this is complex is just to try to create room to do nothing and kick the can down the road, or worse, to capitulate further and increase division.
    
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    November 20, 2024 11:09am
- nathie
  
  Here is David Seymour last night clearly and concisely explaining what his Treaty Principles Bill is about and addresses some of the radical/activists/TPM/MSM/LabourGreen slanted/re-interpreted mis/dis-information on the ToW & Treaty Principles Bill (which the protesters then swallow hook, line and sinker).
  
  Suspect TV3’s leftie interviewer Lloyd Burr didn’t expect such coherent and logical responses from Seymour and couldn’t wait to end the interview?!
  
  But the sad thing is, will it cause the leftie journalists to pause and reflect? No of course not! The public will continue to be deliberately misled …
  
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360492778/david-seymour-defends-controversial-treaty-principles-bill
  
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  November 20, 2024 11:02am
Yvette

‘Whitewashing te Tiriti out of education’
The Government has replaced the school curriculum framework’s acknowledgement of the principles of Te Tiriti o Waitangi with a commitment to ‘the science of learning’

… Professor of indigenous education Linda Tuhiwai-Smith explains that the relationship between education and colonisation is one in which indigenous forms of knowledge and pedagogy are marginalised and suppressed in favour of those of the coloniser. This remains the key form colonial violence takes in Aotearoa’s education system, despite the obligations te Tiriti o Waitangi places upon the Crown.
… Teaching histories is embedded and cherished in classrooms across the motu and teachers are using increasingly more te reo Māori with confidence thanks to Te Ahu o Te Reo Māori. These advances will not be undone.
Ka ora tonu te reo Māori, ka ora tonu te iwi Māori.
[As long as the Māori language survives, the Māori people will survive.]
https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/11/19/whitewashing-te-tiriti-out-of-education/?

Why is Winston saying nothing really at present?
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November 20, 2024 8:03am
- cmm
  
  You confuse Winston with someone who cares.
  
  Winston has a good nose for finding an issue that will get him to 5% and get him back in the trough.
  
  Last year it was the vaccine mandates. Next time it could be Treaty issues.
  
  However once he’s got his bum back in the butter he doesn’t really care that much. Expect him to start looking for an issue again in early 2026 (assuming he’s actually going to go for another term).
  
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  November 20, 2024 10:22am
pdm

Did anyone else hear PM Luxon say this in answer to questions from Chris Hipkins at Question Time yesterday?

CH. Does he believe that there are Principles Of The Treaty Of Waitangi?

CL. Yes

CH. What does he believe the Principles are?

CL. Partnership, protection and many other things that have been discussed over many years – over 184 years.

Here is a link to my take on it:
https://nominister.wordpress.com/2024/11/19/wow-pm-luxon-contradicts-both-the-late-maori-king-and-deputy-pm-winston-peters-re-principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi/
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November 20, 2024 8:05am
- peterwn
  
  The principal question was – Does he stand by all his Government’s statements and actions? I just cannot see how this supplementary question on the Treaty relates to the principal question.
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:15am
  - pdm
    
    pw – there tends to be a wide scope given to questions these days.
    
    I actually enjoy Big Gerry’s relaxed manner as speaker but he does sometime seem to want to keep everyone happy a bit too much.
    
    I would be interested in your take on Luxons answers though.
    
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    November 20, 2024 8:28am
  - Nigel Kearney
    
    That should not be allowed as a principal question. It’s an unsubtle way to get around the requirement of providing questions in advance. Which then leads to unprepared answers which tend to be evasive and unhelpful.
    
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    November 20, 2024 10:28am
- Matt Long
  
  This is curious, because in the coalition agreement Luxon signed up to references to the principles of the treaty are to be removed.
  https://x.com/2ETEKA/status/1858769707614302437
  Does this mean Luxon will fudge the agreement with NZF to push his views of the treaty being a partnership into legislation?
  Michael Laws and others are having a giggle to themselves that the activists are missing the point, but will they be the ones with egg on their faces when (if) Luxon betrays those who voted for this government?
  https://x.com/2ETEKA/status/1858740800408220067
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:21am
  - Eastlander
    
    To believe there are principles of the treaty does not necessarily mean believing they should exist in the law. One suspects Luxon would prefer to reduce them to the level of a political slogan that doesn’t bind the government to anything nor affect the interpretation and application of existing Acts.
    
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    November 20, 2024 8:24am
  - Matt Long
    
    I find the debate I’ve seen around both Seymour’s Bill and the NZF policy that there are no “principles of the treaty” to lack much substance.
    The danger of Act’s bill succeeding, a very low chance at present, is that “principles” would be enshrined and then embellished by both government and judiciary.
    It’s consistent with NZF policy that there are no principles so they would hardly support legislation that codifies the principles, but if National are in malicious compliance mode, they will delay removal of principles from legislation or simply write in partnership in other terms.
    
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    November 20, 2024 8:33am
    - pdm
      
      Ginny Anderson on Hosking this morning proved that she and probably the entire Labour Caucus had no idea what the effect of the Treaty Principles Bill was.
      
      She also endorsed unruly behaviour in the Parliamentary Chamber.
      
      What are these oppostion MP’s on?
      
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      November 20, 2024 8:40am
      - Terry Dalee
        
        About $163,961 a year is what they’re on…
        
        You taxpayer dollars hard at work…//
        
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        November 20, 2024 8:50am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Pdm
        The problem is NZ has become a country where no one is held responsible for their actions.
        From Parliament to the Public Service to Councils to gangs there is an attitude that the rules no longer apply.
        “Important ” people are immune, and the unimportant aren’t worth the bother.
        Ginny is symptomatic of the current state.
        
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        November 20, 2024 9:39am
      - 3-coil
        
        pdm: Promoting unruly behaviour is just “situation normal” for Spinning Jenny! Remember her meltdown at the Labour Party function (in the Lower Hutt Town Hall) the night of the election – attacking her teenage volunteer workers (in public!) for not getting enough votes for her when she lost her seat.
        
        Politics is ugly, but she’s one of the worst.
        
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        November 20, 2024 10:27am
      - Aquarius
        
        Frustrating as it is to listen to her
        I suffer it willingly to hear the real intellect of the Labour Party on display……….
        
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        November 20, 2024 10:50am
    - G152
      
      That piece of paper is not going to go away and next election a political party might need a coalition to remain in power…
      
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      November 20, 2024 8:42am
    - Don Beckett
      
      But Matt, there are principles of the Treaty.
      1. Maori surrendered sovereinty to the crown which has the right to govern.
      2.All people have equal rights before the law.
      3 Maori have the right to their own land and customs etc.
      Sure, that is a paraphrase, but you get what I mean.
      They are the only principles – not the 30 odd other ones made up by activist judges & politicians.
      
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      November 20, 2024 10:52am
      - Matt Long
        
        Those are the Articles of the Treaty Don, the principles have mostly appeared over the past 40 years.
        
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        November 20, 2024 10:59am
      - Don Beckett
        
        Agreed Matt, but they are still principles. The only ones.
        
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        November 20, 2024 11:20am
- Grunter
  
  Luxon is all over the place on this, a complete shambles of word salad comes out each day.
  
  He is a living example of why we need the Treaty Bill; otherwise, random elites can make it up as they please.
  
  A country that does not have clarity on sovereignty, and property laws, and gives unequal treatment based on race is a country destined to fail.
  
  There is nothing I like about Luxon at the moment.
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:36am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Yes I agree. Simon Bridges will be remembered as the guy who could have made an excellent PM. I still don’t understand why he was axed. IIRC Nicki Kaye was an instigator.
    
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    November 20, 2024 9:57am
    - cmm
      
      ” I still don’t understand why he was axed.”
      You just gave the answer: ” Simon Bridges will be remembered as the guy who could have made an excellent PM”
      
      They don’t want that!
      
      Does anyone really think “they” benefit from having a solid MP or sorting out all this Treaty mess?
      I put it to you that if “they” cared then the Maori roll (a huge contributor to the mess) would have been removed somewhere in the last 140 years.
      
      “They” like things as they are.
      
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      November 20, 2024 10:26am
- kowtow
  
  ‘CL. Partnership, protection and many other things that have been discussed over many years – over 184 years.’
  
  Another PM who doesn’t know his stuff , something else that was said over those 184 years was “simple nullity”.
  
  It’ll be interesting to see Luxon’s take if and when Winston First’s ‘there are no principles bill’ ever does get to the House , but I doubt it will as I believe NZF , as always ,is just taking the piss,in order to stay at the trough.
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:44am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    “CL. Partnership, protection and many other things that have been discussed over many years..”
    
    Honestly? That sounds like an answer a 20 year old intern would give in a job interview for the public service. I’m serious.
    
    I would genuinely like to hear cogent arguments from Luxon. Pathetic.
    
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    November 20, 2024 10:00am
    - Keith White
      
      Luxon’s had too many mRNA boosters over the years to be able to think clearly.
      
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      November 20, 2024 10:52am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      I would genuinely like to hear cogent arguments from Luxon.
      
      He seems to lack the intellectual grunt of Seymour when faced with curly questions.
      
      Could it be that Luxon has had an easy ride to the top?
      
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      November 20, 2024 11:07am
- lastmanstanding
  
  Its clear the Elite Classes dont want the Peasant Class discussing and debating the Treaty or the Bill. The Elites believe the Peasants are too simple minded and unsophisicated to understand such matters. Instead the Peasants should shut up do what they are told and let the Elites decide such lofty matters.
  Alas the Elites have learned nothing from the US election. That the majority of the Peasants want to live in a society that is free of Wokeism Racism with freedom of thought and speech. The Peasant Class is a lot bigger than the Elite Classes. The Elites should ponder that.
  
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  November 20, 2024 9:06am
  - Burtland
    
    there appear to be multiple elites involved in boiling the frog
    
    the tribes- tamaheri, jackson, morgan the tribal leaders the mongrel mob
    KCs – woke legal brigade and law firms
    national – shipley finlayson key under luxons skirt
    
    they have been the first to scream which is probably about the money
    
    Has Seymour has been successful in flushing all of them out?
    – the public service seems to be missing …
    
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    November 20, 2024 9:46am
- RoboRob
  
  Epic Luxon, I believe…
  
  Maori ceded sovereignty
  and
  The govt has a partnership with Maori
  
  Again I ask, which does he really believe?
  
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  November 20, 2024 9:18am
  - Taieri
    
    Maori ceded sovereignty
    ——-
    
    It’s debatable whether they understood the concept of sovereignty in the same way as we understand it.
    In 1840, what is now New Zealand was inhabited by a number of tribes fiercely competing for very scarce resources just in order to survive. There was no paramount authority and no awareness of a nationhood. Consequently, each chief (or more aptly a chieftain) held an authority over his, sometime very small, tribe. This authority was often challenged by other chieftains, invariably by very violent means. Even now, despite the narration mirrored in the MSM, the unity of Maoridom can be quite ephemeral. One of the examples that come to mind is the attitude of Ngai Tahu toward the Kingitanga movement. Anyway, the tribal ways of life are gone forever, regardless of the efforts of all the activists. And the ideas of “co-governance” are just a cynical push for power by the people who don’t subscribe to the old fashioned notions of democracy, universal suffrage and all that comes with it.
    
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    November 20, 2024 10:43am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      And the ideas of “co-governance” are just a cynical push for power
      
      The end-game for many of the activists is ethnic separatism.
      It does make a problem for ethnically blended families who love and cherish all the branches and twigs of their family trees.
      
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      November 20, 2024 11:12am
cmm

A few days ago I said that a manual transmission is the ultimate security device. Today I found out.

I went to start my car and the key would not work. The plastic surround was also half disassembled.

It would appear that halfway through the would-be thief saw the manual shifter and gave up. Unfortunately they completely stuffed the lock before they did so.

The vehicle is 28 years old and has a hammered turbo so it probably isn’t worth fixing. Still, it wasn’t stolen.
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November 20, 2024 8:06am
- peterwn
  
  The Pontiac (the one which was sold in NZ in the 1990’s) had a similar anti-theft feature. You had to push the manual gear lever into the floor to engage reverse, and this caught out people not in the know (like me!). The poor car thief would be trying all sorts of things to get it in reverse before giving up.
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:23am
  - igm
    
    I do not think even a car thief would have found the theft of one of those Pontiacs desirable.
    
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    November 20, 2024 9:02am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Old Triumph Heralds and VWs are the same.
    
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    November 20, 2024 9:04am
  - bennerg
    
    I had one of those, fantastic car.
    
    I remember well one day, aI asked a friend to move it while I finished a phone call, to allow someone else to exit a car park. After 20 minutes I went to check, and found him nudging a wall each time he tried to engage reverse.
    
    For a full history of the car see here: http://www.vauxpedia.net/vauxhall-t85—pontiac-lemans
    
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    November 20, 2024 9:06am
  - rouppe
    
    Didn’t some (possibly British) ones require you to lift the knob to be able to move the shifter over enough to engage reverse?
    
    All to prevent accidentally engaging reverse, but a right laugh to watch either way
    
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    November 20, 2024 10:13am
Maggy Wassilieff

Does anyone trust our MSM?

As everyone knows, there is currently considerable focus on the protests around the Treaty of Waitangi Bill. Regardless of where readers sit on the Bill itself, the lack of professionalism of many in legacy media has been on clear display.

https://onpointnz.substack.com/p/the-path-to-irrelevance
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November 20, 2024 8:09am
- Tarquin North
  
  A great article Maggie, thanks for that.
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:30am
- Burtland
  
  Willie is still in charge of our MSM – hes a fourth secret coalition partner
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:33am
- graham
  
  Excellent points in that article Maggy, thank you.
  
  One imagines that the MSM are well aware of the distrust that an ever-increasing number of people have for them – if they aren’t then they must be blind and deaf (or just willfully sticking their fingers in their ears and going “La la la, WE CAN’T HEAR YOU!”) – which probably explains in part why they have been so eager to call out what they see as “misinformation” and “disinformation“. Because if we, the common people, actually start reading other non-approved sources, and start (gasp!) THINKING for ourselves, they (the MSM), will lose their control over us.
  
  And I suspect that prospect terrifies them.
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:34am
- nathie
  
  Thanks, a good read.
  
  Hmmm in a way it’s a pity we can’t “vote” for our 4th Estate!
  
  Because it is the only way they could be held accountable to the people.
  
  And self-reflect when they are voted down!
  
  After all they are behaving like a political party – they have political leanings and promote them, whilst disparaging (or ignoring) opposite viewpoints.
  
  Oh well, mistrust in the media continues …
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:41am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Our collective delusional acceptance that they are in fact the media, rather than political activists, is the lifeblood and the foundation upon which they continue to exist.
    
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    November 20, 2024 10:17am
  - kowtow
    
    You can vote with your wallet.
    
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    November 20, 2024 10:30am
- Grunter
  
  MSM does not exist in NZ. There is no longer anything “Mainstream” about our daily newspapers, TV News, or Radio News. It is all extreme-left propaganda.
  
  There is ‘old-style media channels’. And new-media.
  
  The days of old ‘mass media’ are gone for good. We all now have to learn how to best navigate how we capture knowledge and ‘News’ in this environment. It will never be perfect (hint: it never was). But knowing that is half the battle.
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:41am
- Bevan
  
  Great article Maggy!
  
  I do love it though that when National gets in power, TVNZ all of a sudden realise how important things like impartiality and transparency are!
  
  Question – why do these things seem important when National are in power and not Labour? 2nd question – are any broadcasters secretly meeting with the current Broad casting Minister, or would that be seen as contradicting impartiality?
  
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  November 20, 2024 11:03am
Bridgenag

Scientific American Ignored Years of Editor Laura Helmuth’s Appalling Conduct, Then Scalped Her After I Circulated Her Own Tweets
Support for Helmuth’s hatred and bigotry further exposes science writers’ political bias, meager reporting skills, and distaste for the American public. – PAUL D. THACKER

https://open.substack.com/pub/disinformationchronicle/p/scientific-american-ignored-years?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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November 20, 2024 8:10am
- G152
  
  I gave up on Scientific American
  about 30 years ago when the last thing that could be said about them was scientific.
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:46am
- cmm
  
  Anyone who thinks the situation is any different here, in Australia, EU, or such is deluded.
  
  Science is no longer truth seeking. It has been weaponised for wokeness. The real science is dead.
  
  Maybe the Russians and Chinese still have their scientific heads screwed on right.
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:50am
kowtow

A couple of thoughts on the media and commentary re the march .

Many are praising the democratic display of such a large protest ; fine but the march is designed to prevent a referendum on a key constitutional issue facing the future of this country .

last night on nzme radio they covered the fact that Maori Party leader addressed the crowd and used the puerile , obscenity of ‘see you next tuesday’ again .
This was not mentioned in the Herald coverage ( printed version) today at all , the only speaker they named or quoted was Helmut Modlik .

The numbers game. Herald report police figure of 42 000 , but the aerial photo in the Herald shows nothing like that . Can the police be trusted .
Maori Party claiming 80000 , that’s even more ludicrous .

Plunkett’s Platform has excellent coverage and he currently represents the new media and is trustworthy .
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November 20, 2024 8:13am
- John Loveridge
  
  This morning I was standing in a stadium designed to hold 30,000 people. Looking at the photos of the carkoi crowd outside Parliament, then gazing around the stadium and using a bit of mental extrapolation, it was difficult to see where those numbers came from, even the cops’ estimate of 42,000.
  
  Like the crossing of the harbour bridge. Applying a bit of rough counting and multiplication to the drone footage of the crowd crossing, I reckoned there might have been something like 1500-2000.
  
  It’s very possible I’m far more cynical than accurate, but there was a lot of incentive to swell the stated numbers, and the figures being coughed up by Rawiri Waititi were pure sexual fantasy.
  
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  November 20, 2024 11:03am
Benedict Yu

It is unusual for those who point lasers at aircraft to be apprehended. By the time police go looking they are long gone.

This guy picked on the wrong rescue helicopter pilot who chased the guy down. Well done that pilot. 😀

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360491687/rescue-helicopter-tracks-down-clown-who-pointed-laser-pilot

It will be interesting to check back on the sentence that he receives.
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November 20, 2024 8:16am
- peterwn
  
  The helicopter pilot has done his part in helping save lives in the future, so let’s hope the Judge shows the same life-saving zeal when sentencing the idiot.
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:29am
  - G152
    
    Generally those idiots do their laser blinding from their back yards and so can be identified.
    
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    November 20, 2024 8:48am
- cmm
  
  3 months of Xbox with Flight Simulator installed?
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:31am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    This looks like a near identical incident in the USA in 2021. In this case it was a police helicopter.
    
    https://tinyurl.com/4e9dk3pz
    
    Five years in prison.
    
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    November 20, 2024 8:44am
    - RoboRob
      
      If you get home D for physically assaulting someone in NZ, I struggle to see how you get jail for this.
      
      n.b I do believe this is a serious offence, just that if our justice system has any consistency you cant give jail for this.
      
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      November 20, 2024 9:21am
      - imalwaysright
        
        They will probably do the pilot for stalking and harassment.
        
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        November 20, 2024 10:21am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  He thought it was a drone.
  Um, drones have a different sound – I have one. (Mavic Pro.)
  
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  November 20, 2024 9:13am
- Chris Nisbet
  
  Sadly, it probably depends on who his ancestors were.
  
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  November 20, 2024 9:56am
  - Keith White
    
    The pre-colonial Maori had laser-guided taiahas dontchaknow. It’s indigenous scienz.
    
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    November 20, 2024 10:55am
- sirknz
  
  It will probably go something along the lines of this clown:
  
  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/man-who-caused-spectacular-hamilton-crash-injuring-four-succeeds-in-bid-to-avoid-conviction/B2XWCDWXERGC7NHBE2I75WNBCE/
  
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  November 20, 2024 10:07am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Learner license and after 10pm.
    
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    November 20, 2024 11:06am
Anthony Melchett

https://youtu.be/vDLgrqYJApM?si=4f11gzz5X742Vn08

Trump laying down his plans to prevent the mental and physical of abuse of children that are manipulated into thinking they need to be a transvestite.

Absolute class and common sense. Hopefully it catches on.
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November 20, 2024 8:25am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Transistors forcing their mental illness on children is plain wrong.
  
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  November 20, 2024 11:16am
Grunter

The USA just blew up a Russian military warehouse in the Bryansk region in western Russia (not Kursk where Ukrainian troops are).

They used the US-made long-range MGM-140 Army Tactical Missile System. Ukrainians can NOT fire these things themselves.

The Russians have previously said, that if the USA does this then they will see this as a direct war between the USA & Russia.

Russian nuclear protocols say that any non-nuclear strike into Russian territory COULD result in Russia responding with nukes.

So, Russia has either been bluffing, OR, we have the start of WW3. We will now find out.
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November 20, 2024 8:29am
- Burtland
  
  even demented biden sees its a bluff
  
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  November 20, 2024 9:55am
- JimBobJoe
  
  And….
  
  Russia has killed civilians in Kyiv… they should be safe outside a few hundred kilometres of their border?
  
  Putin needs to look at his calculus: If he loves Russia he will make a peace offer with real merit and do it soon. If he doesn’t then Russia and the whole world burns.
  
  Its all in Putins hands
  
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  November 20, 2024 10:01am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Pretty sure Putin has offered ceasefire and other resolutions in the past.
    The recent falls in share prices, since Trumps election, of companies that serve the NATO military suppliers, may be a clue as to why his offers have been rejected.
    
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    November 20, 2024 10:51am
cmm

Cahill seems extremely reluctant for police to do their duty.
It would seem they are inviting the gangs to resist so that they can just roll over.

Now that the gangs, TPM, and “Maori rights” have all been blended into an unappetizing sausage it is going to make policing hell.

I think this is going to end up like the bans on using cellphones while driving and low amounts of weed usage. The laws will exist on the books and give the police some potential teeth, but the laws will be flagrantly ignored and the police won’t do a damn thing.

But, hey, Luxon can claim to have been tough on gangs.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/hawkes-bay-to-be-real-test-for-nationwide-gang-patch-ban/UX6FOIAPLJEJ5APN4AWE2BJM74/
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November 20, 2024 8:30am
- imalwaysright
  
  When the cops bust a few crims its a ministerial photo op.
  
  When the cops don’t enforce the law its an “operational matter”
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:44am
- Burtland
  
  the gangs, TPM, and “Maori rights” have all been blended into an unappetizing sausage
  
  the sausage seems to be a racist banana republic based on apartheid
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:48am
- Nigel Kearney
  
  Police will enforce it selectively against people they have a problem with for other reasons. That’s what happens when you have too many laws.
  
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  November 20, 2024 10:02am
  - cmm
    
    Yup, this can be a way to give the police teeth, but I think there are just too many gang members and the cops are too wussy to make it work here.
    
    I think that was largely the case with prostitution laws before decriminalisation. The cops turned a blind eye to prostitution, but could throw the book around if they needed to. This meant they were able to move the ladies on if they were disturbing people and could intervene if necessary. I wonder whether that actually made the ladies safer and whether decriminalisation has actually made life worse for the prostitutes. It would be interesting to find out. If so, it wouldn’t be the first time that well-meaning law changes have unintended negative outcomes.
    
    The gang patch laws are no doubt going to end up in the higher courts and be contested on the basis of human rights etc.
    
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    November 20, 2024 10:38am
k1w1

They sure are restless. This, verbatim, from a Paihia/Waitangi locals FB group…

I’ve seen some pretty fair debate on here this week then some questionable stuff then totally out of line and I want to mihi to the admin team for showing due diligence and fair constructive management of korero on the page.
I want to remind all the ney sayers this movement can either boost Paihias economy or we can walk straight through and keep the economy around the point to Waitangi alone
It is time for Paihia and Waitangi to come together entirely a friendly maori is better than an angry one.
Let’s Focus on that Paihia
One things for sure for us as maori you will never go hungry
You will be safe
We will care for you like our own
Or you can stay as you are and join the minority
Ake ake ake
Yes I remember all of you that have pushed the line of decency
See you February 6 2025
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November 20, 2024 8:30am
- Paulus
  
  I remember, many times, Best Fish & Chips shop on waterfront in Paihi – great Maori ladies too !
  
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  November 20, 2024 9:46am
  - Tauhei Notts
    
    Is that the shop that advertised;
    “Get your pie here!”
    
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    November 20, 2024 11:10am
kevn

But, will cowboy intervene and get some decency instilled into a dysfunctional situation?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-daily-post/news/whakatane-homicide-inquiry-boy-8-dies-in-hospital-woman-charged-with-assault/MVLULTI7KNFHVJZAZBEMSVBBM4/
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November 20, 2024 8:37am
- imalwaysright
  
  Kevn
  
  I haven’t seen this (alleged) murder of a kiwi child covered on the tv news.
  They are however spending a lot of airtime covering a couple of good looking teenage Aussie girls, on their gap year in Indonesia, who ended up on life support after getting hammered on the local jungle juice.
  
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  November 20, 2024 8:52am
- Blog-aholic
  
  No. No he won’t.
  
  4 0
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  November 20, 2024 9:19am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  Whakatāne? That’s Rawhiti’s rohe, isn’t it?
  
  He’ll be all over Oranga Tamariki, demanding to know why they didn’t intervene in time.
  
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  November 20, 2024 9:23am
Tempist

Why do communists love their marches?
8 1
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November 20, 2024 8:40am
- Burtland
  
  someone made a lot of money on flags
  
  3 0
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  November 20, 2024 10:09am
  - John Loveridge
    
    A capitalist, no less.
    
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    November 20, 2024 11:04am
- sirknz
  
  Probably for the same reasons they hate farmers and anybody else who owns anything substantial.
  
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  November 20, 2024 10:11am
I remember when

So if clauses 1 and 2 of the Treaty allowed Maori to retain sovereignty and retention of all their possessions (all the rights they already had) –

what possible benefit would there be in having the same rights as a British citizen?

So did it simply mean that Maori land could only be sold to the Crown?
A real estate contract.
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November 20, 2024 8:42am
- Interested Party
  
  I think the background to this is – at the time some Maori were selling land which they did not have a right to sell. Also some land was sold more than once. Thus the reason for that treaty article.
  
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  November 20, 2024 10:12am
Yvette

I had wondered recently if the Police were still working on laying charges in the Pike River Mine case.
It seems they are.
Against the person who left a 20mm gap in the fan engine mounting by removing a brass flange that caused sparks?
Or the guy who designed a mine with the afore-mentioned fan under ground instead of above it.
Or whom designed a mine layout that allowed a collapse in the goff to release the methane that it apparently did?
No wonder it is taking a while.
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November 20, 2024 8:43am
- imalwaysright
  
  “Why is a country cop leading a mine rescue?” – Australian journalist.
  
  Collective intake of breath and rattling of pearls being clutched. – NZ media.
  
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  November 20, 2024 10:27am
Matt Long

Regarding last week’s fiasco in parliament that led to world wide mockery, I wonder if big Gerry can find the mojo that enabled him to throw National supporting farming leaders out of his office during the early years of the Key government, leading to them tearing up their National Party memberships.
Or is there something about young relatively attractive shoplifters and racist radicals that requires different approaches?
As people commented after Peter Dunne’s resignation, there’s no fool like an old fool.
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November 20, 2024 8:45am
- Cassandra
  
  Gerry was an aggressive, angry MP and Minister but seems to be a weak Speaker. Perhaps trying to be the opposite of the partisan Mallard. Allowing the Maori Party to strut their stuff during the swearing-in allowed them to do it again over the ToW Bill. He’ll have to draw a line now or Parliament will become an even bigger shambles.
  
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  November 20, 2024 9:00am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    IIRC he suspended parliament. What exactly do you think that he should have done?
    
    11 2
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    November 20, 2024 9:11am
    - Cassandra
      
      He allowed the haka to be completed and the MP MPs to intimidate Seymour, he allowed MP MPs to wave clubs while being sworn in, he hasn’t said anything about what penalties will be imposed, he allows spectators to sing, etc. Do,you think suspension after 5 minutes of disrespect and disruption is enough?
      
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      November 20, 2024 10:46am
    - Quail
      
      Well , just for openers ,he could have banned them until they,
      (1) Apologised to the House and all New Zealand for:
      (a) the damage done to NZ international reputation , in particular exporters. and
      (b) the offence given to non TPM NZ citizens.
      
      (2) Enforce a reputable dress code,
      
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      November 20, 2024 10:49am
    - Keith White
      
      There are a lot of tools at the Speaker’s disposal, some of which others have mentioned; with a little research you could have answered your own rhetorical.
      
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      November 20, 2024 10:59am
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Recall his shifty coffee with the disgraced Green MP. The shoplifter, for clarity.
    
    4 1
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    November 20, 2024 9:26am
    - MCōs
      
      GerryBrownlee met up with Golriz Ghahraman in broad daylight on the footpath outside a coffee shop where any passersby could have taken their photograph — and did.
      Nothing ‘shifty’ about the meeting at all
      
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      November 20, 2024 10:37am
      - MCōs
        
        Here’s a creepy video of the occasion
        https://vt.tiktok.com/ZSjuFmNAf/
        
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        November 20, 2024 10:43am
      - pdm
        
        Doesn’t say much about the credibility or common decency of the person taking and publishing the video.
        
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        November 20, 2024 11:04am
    - Ghost
      
      No. I do however recall the speaker meeting in public with her and people making up shit about it. I’m surprised how similar some on the right are to what they despise in the left
      
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      November 20, 2024 10:47am
- Burtland
  
  the BBCs Katy Watson seems to be keen to lead the world wide mockery …
  
  “Davis Seymour is pushing through a bill in parliament that effectively changes the principles of the ToW which is the founding document of New Zealand”
  
  https://bbc.com/news/videos/c2078j2lx27o
  
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  November 20, 2024 9:07am
  - Jack5
    
    The BBC also seems to be leading support for the Labour Government’s death duties that will just about end British family farms.
    
    Before death duties ended in NZ at the end of 1992, families were being forced off farms in NZ. They didn’t get enough time to meet the tax deadline, and those who had plans to meet it largely prepared with life insurance, whose payouts were hit by inflation.
    
    Origins of the BBC go back to when radio was both expensive new technology and Britain needed wireless to pipe information to the huge empire.
    
    NZ long since passed the need for State radio, except for piping information and propaganda to the Pacific Islands and acting as an emergency system for New Zealand’s earthquakes and volcano eruptions — and floods.
    
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    November 20, 2024 10:17am
Matt Long

What method did Mohamed use to support himself? Initially he lived off a rich widow, but then he had to turn to plundering.
An interesting background into the world’s biggest ever colonising project.
https://x.com/realMaalouf/status/1858611528037265803
https://x.com/realMaalouf/status/1858308256650666211
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November 20, 2024 8:52am
nathie

The sad thing about opposition to the Treaty Principles Bill and the Hikoi itself is the ignorance and misinformation of the protesters.

Sure, for balance the protestors can hurl that same sentiment back towards the Coalition Govt. But listen to what the protesters are actually saying. They say “Maori are being attacked” or “the Govt is dividing the country” or “the Govt is dismantling the Treaty” etc.

Nonsense! So are these people stupid? Surely not! So are they simply low-information voters? Or simply so wedded to their worldview that they simply don’t want to consider different perspectives?

And/or is it because our MSM and Labour (and Greens & TPM) are encouraging them? I think this is more likely, in that the messaging from the Left (MSM included) both amplifies discontent, normalising it, and denigrates Govt and alternative views.

And this is where the problem lies and needs to be addressed. By the Govt and those in a position (eg ex-govt etc) to articulate their views.

Oh and even by some of ourselves here, that have fallen into the leftie trap and are now constantly bickering amongst ourselves about the politicians on our own sides.

Meanwhile the real “enemy” makes hay in the MSM and Labour/Green/TPM sunshine …
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November 20, 2024 8:55am
- Flossie
  
  I was troubled to read a crawler on the BBC tv channel last night with words to the effect that there was a protest about Maori having their rights removed. The implication was that NZ Maori were somehow being given lesser rights than other citizens.
  
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  November 20, 2024 10:00am
  - Nigel Kearney
    
    You will recall the previous National government signed us up to a UN Treaty that says indigenous people have special rights that other citizens do not.
    
    4 0
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    November 20, 2024 10:09am
    - Jack5
      
      That was under John Key.
      
      He was taken in by the fact that the declaration was “non-binding”.
      
      Yeah, right, as the great beer adverts said. 😲
      
      Thank you, John.
      
      https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/national-govt-support-un-rights-declaration
      
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      November 20, 2024 10:27am
      - Nigel Kearney
        
        There is an ‘action plan’ which the Key government also agreed to.
        
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        November 20, 2024 11:17am
  - MCōs
    
    I think you mean fewer rights
    
    1 0
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    November 20, 2024 10:28am
Northshoredoc

DPF you may want to bang this on the head.

https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19-11-2024/#comment-2017619

Slander is slander after all.
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November 20, 2024 8:59am
- Jethrod
  
  Ooohh….. that’s a right little coven of liars!
  
  1 0
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  November 20, 2024 10:03am
- AitchW
  
  Wow, that Muttonbird fellow is an angry, angry man!
  
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  November 20, 2024 10:12am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  Libel, I think.
  
  Slander is spoken, libel is in letters, as the old aide memoire has it.
  
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  November 20, 2024 10:40am
I remember when

Gerry Eckhoff: In Response to Anne Stevens – KC:
Breaking Views.
“It has always been concerning that the signing was deemed a partnership between Maori and the representatives of Queen Victoria as Justice Cook (wrongly) decided.
Indeed, his decision makes no sense given that no other similar partnership agreements exist between any other emerging nation at that time with the greatest power of the age.”

“It is worth remembering that approximately 102 countries were colonized by Britain- only “the familiar few” in NZ believe there was a partnership.”
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November 20, 2024 9:07am
Diogenes

I received an email yesterday from Don Brash of Hobsons Choice, asking me to sign on to a new protest against the Prime Minister’s approach to the Treaty Bill. The protest takes the form of a new website, ScaredyCatChristopher.nz

Don Brash says by way of explanation: “Satire and lampooning have a long history in politics and it is our view that the Prime Minister well and truly deserves to be called a Scaredy Cat. He clearly has allowed the media to bully him into making increasingly more strident statements in opposition to the Bill and seems to be so afraid of accusations of racism that he would prefer to dodge important conversations. Christopher Luxon is so afraid of the media, the Left, and Maori activists that he would rather avoid upsetting them than deliver on what his voters elected the Coalition Government to do. That’s why we have built ScaredyCatChristopher.nz so that everyone can send an email to Christopher Luxon telling him just how disappointed and disrespected we are all feeling.”

Sorry, Mr Brash, but I think this is a very retrograde step. I have been a supporter of Hobsons Pledge for several years, and am just as opposed as you are to the current attitude of National. However, I am totalling opposed to labelling Mr Luxon “ScaredyCat”. There should be no place for such derogatory schoolboy language to be used by an organisation which up to now has ostensibly been about civilised dialogue and researched fact. I am convinced that it will do nothing other than to cause Mr Luxon to dig his toes in even further, if nothing else than from the feeling that he is dealing with a bunch of juveniles who can be safely ignored.

In a reply email to Hobsons Pledge, I wrote: “I consider this to be a very bad tactic on your part. Surely there were better labels to use than this, and consequently I will not be taking any action in relation to the website, much as I abhor Mr Luxon’s attitudes.”
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November 20, 2024 9:13am
- MCōs
  
  In my opinion Mr Luxon was far too politically naive in the coalition negotiations as its transpired.
  He doesn’t agree with the Mr Seymour’s bill and yet he put it on the agenda. He should have told him no, what are you going to do about it?
  There’s two winners out of this and neither is National
  
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  November 20, 2024 10:19am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Mcos
    Good point, why engage in a sham.
    It comes across as a school yard game where one has to endure a forfeit to stay in the game.
    I think this is pissing people off more than the actual arguments.
    Juvenile time wasting.
    
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    November 20, 2024 11:05am
- pdm
  
  I agree Diogenes.
  
  I will not be participating in that Hobsons Choice campaign which looks like something dreamed up by Labour or Green Party activists.
  
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  November 20, 2024 11:12am
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx3f-4Rv5sc
Downsizing the Government to Revive Self-Governance.
The Administrative State can be downsized with relative ease. Voters want sweeping changes. The key was SCOTUS saying bureaucrats can’t make rules. Only Congress can.
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November 20, 2024 9:17am
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZDIhpzGWgQ
The DPRK Betrays China.
Now, lil Rocketman has a new source of money. The Presitator isn’t best pleased.
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November 20, 2024 9:17am
MCōs

Yesterday we caught the train to Newmarket in Auckland at about 11am. In front of us as we proceeded along the platform two guys were loudly arguing. One flabby shirtless guy had a bike in one hand and a hammer in the other and was threatening to stove the other guy’s head in.
That guy naturally kept his distance. We had to walk quite close to hammer man to exit the platform, but he was oblivious to us, the security guards, one of whom was huge, that were arriving and the police sirens.
Eventually about five police cars pulled up outside the station
Btw
That’s a desolate windy station these days with all the shops closed down
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November 20, 2024 9:55am
- Keith White
  
  We see how often cyclists ride hammered but this one seems to have taken the Cyclists’ Code way too seriously…
  
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  November 20, 2024 11:02am
thirteenstars

SpaceX conducts the 6th test of its massive Starship rocket today at 11am NZ time (4pm Texas).

Official SpaceX live broadcast is here on X:

https://x.com/i/broadcasts/1RDGlydZAeOJL

Coverage begins at 10:20am NZ time.
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November 20, 2024 10:17am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Judge Merchan Hands Trump Historic Victory.
Merchan wants to see what happens about Presidential Immunity.
imo he has the shits.

https://pjnewsletter.com/judge-hands-trump-historic-vic/?
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November 20, 2024 10:21am
Matt Long

Japan has found itself the beneficiary of manganese nodules containing $20 billion of cobalt and nickel.
It’s a real shame New Zealand doesn’t have similar resources in say the Catham Rise, but I guess if it did the taniwhas would eat them.
https://search.app?link=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.unilad.com%2Fnews%2Fworld-news%2Fjapan-rare-earth-mineral-discovery-275611-20241118&utm_campaign=aga&utm_source=agsadl1%2Csh%2Fx%2Fgs%2Fm2%2F4
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November 20, 2024 10:44am

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