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November 18, 2024 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 18 November 2024

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General Debate

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NeverMindTheBollocks

If those Restore Passenger Rail climate action people really have the courage of their convictions, they’ll be blocking SH1 at Ngauranga Gorge tomorrow morning.

Treaty carkois are all very well, but climate change is existential, don’t you know.
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November 18, 2024 8:01am
- Colville
  
  I would take a lawnchair and a bowl of popcorn and go watch that!
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:08am
  - sirknz
    
    The breathless media would add you to the numbers with a multiplier of 10.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:32am
- Benedict Yu
  
  That would be very funny to watch.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:23am
- cmm
  
  I’m more than happy for them to put their money where their mouths are and pay full price for train tickets.
  No more taxpayer subsidies.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:39am
Grunter

Seymour on Hosking this morning was once again on point and very clear regards the Treaty Bill. He called out former PM Shipley for her bizarre comments about inviting a civil war.

By my calculation, we now have almost 90% of politicians now supporting the Māori Apartheid Party and their dangerous antics. Hipkins about to join their protest march.

So far, zero logical counter arguments from anyone. Just emotional rubbish and meaningless word salads. No realistic alternatives.

Can NZ thrive as a country if the current PM thinks our sovereignty and property laws can “evolve with the times”…….???

We are clearly in the crap big time!
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November 18, 2024 8:07am
- Burtland
  
  from the Hikoi …
  
  Misba – born in Indian now calling aotearoa home
  
  “we need to make our stand clear to te treaty and the atrocities that have been happening here in the government”
  
  seems some Indians are joining the “haters and wreckers”
  
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018964583/hikoi-m-te-tiriti-arrives-in-porirua
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:05am
  - Flossie
    
    Atrocities? Like what?
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:31am
- Benedict Yu
  
  The French do dumb things but I admire their constitution.
  
  All citizens are French. End of story. Employers cannot ask for your ethnicity and the government collects no data on ethnicity.
  
  If only we had that here.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:26am
  - kowtow
    
    All well and good but the French constitution does not run in the banlieues.
    
    NB nor does it help the future of the state that has just experienced its lowest birthrate since 1944 ( note that date) .
    
    Ou la la.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:49am
- Mark Hanley
  
  I’m perplexed about Luxons stance.
  
  While I know the constitutional change process will require time to gain the overwhelming public support needed to make the change stick, Luxons harsh and unequivocal statements on the bill dying post select committee doesn’t leave the necessary wriggle room.
  
  Luxons assertion that treaty issues are more complex than Seymours treaty principals bill is simply not true. Without the treaty principals bill, Labour’s return will see the treaty being used as an excuse to funnel more money into selected Maori bank accounts.
  
  The next consideration is why the labour party hierarchy gave the Maori King so much money. It harmed Labour’s election prospects, it did nothing to improve Maori lives, and it certainly didn’t improve the lives of everyone else, so WHY?????
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:36am
  - Ghost
    
    There is absolutely nothing in this bill that stops labour returning and revoking the bill, continuing on their way they were before leaving office. Nothing stops that
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:38am
    - rouppe
      
      Absolutely true.
      
      Just as nothing stops Labour returning and putting Treaty Principles clauses back into the legislation that National and NZF might take references out of, sometime, possibly, in the future.
      
      Not to mention that each of those changes, to each of those pieces of legislation will each have to go through select committee individually, so they are going to each become subject to the vitriol we currently see. So same conversation, times 15, over the entire parliamentary term rather than just 6 months.
      
      What do you think that’s going to do to the mood of the country?
      
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      November 18, 2024 9:52am
    - RoboRob
      
      If the bill went through the whole process and a referendum was held and the bill got > 50% support then it would be VERY risky for any in coming government to simply remove it.
      
      Your ‘Labour can just dump it’ arguement also works for Nationals current principals removement system. Labour can just add them back in. It would actually be easier for Labour to do this then revoke a popular, referendumed piece of law.
      
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      November 18, 2024 9:58am
      - Ghost
        
        Labour won’t care about a referendum, it will be one of the first things along with charter schools they reverse. There is nothing you can do to stop that. The next labour, greens, maori government will reverse the bill, they will get rid of charter schools.
        
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        November 18, 2024 10:15am
      - RoboRob
        
        @Ghost
        
        Fear of what Labour might undo shouldn’t stop us from doing what we think is right.
        
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        November 18, 2024 10:40am
    - peterwn
      
      A clause can be put into a bill to prevent its future repeal but it is ineffective unless the bill is passed by a 75% majority which will not happen.
      
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      November 18, 2024 10:16am
    - Mark Hanley
      
      You are correct from a legal view point, but not from a political.view point.
      
      Reversing legislation supported by 80% of voters will make Labour’s time in office very short. And if Kieron McNaulty learnt anything from Adern and Robertson, its that funnelling tax payers money off. Into friendly bank accounts, is best left until a new perceived threat is concocted, and that will require a 2nd term..
      
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      November 18, 2024 10:20am
      - Ghost
        
        Wow now we’re going up to 80% of the voters, people sure do pull figures out of nowhere. And no, labour won’t care, some of you have far more respect for labour than reality will show
        
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        November 18, 2024 10:21am
      - RoboRob
        
        @Ghost
        
        We wont know what the level of support for the bill is until a referendum is green lit. Certainly National, Labour & TPM all think it will receive over 50% support, which is why they are blocking it.
        
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        November 18, 2024 10:43am
    - Taieri
      
      There is absolutely nothing in this bill that stops labour returning and revoking the bill
      ————–
      
      Like in any other proposed or enacted legislation.
      According to your logic there’s no point in passing any laws because future government can revoke them.
      
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      November 18, 2024 10:42am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    why the labour party hierarchy gave the Maori King so much money. It harmed Labour’s election prospects, it did nothing to improve Maori lives, and it certainly didn’t improve the lives of everyone else, so WHY?????
    
    Labour hierarchy could see that they were losing their traditional Maori support to TMP.
    
    They tried to keep a grip on the Ratana Maori vote by having Adrian Rurawhe as speaker and by devoting $$$$$ to Waikato-Tainui.
    
    But Waikato-Tainui were cosying up to TMP, some of Ratana had already shifted allegiance to TMP (Tariana Turia, Che Wilson)….and then Labour started losing control of some of their Maori MPs (Louisa Wall, Meka Whaitiri, Kiri Allan).
    
    I think its too late for Labour to attract in young Maori candidates.
    
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    November 18, 2024 10:27am
- cmm
  
  It has evolved with time.
  This stared in 1879 and is still evolving – getting more and more militant until we get some sort of civil war.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:41am
- Damocles11
  
  With her hysterical cries about civil war, the unhinged Shipley reveals exactly what she thinks about the vast majority of responsible Maori and why her and other blueboods are appeasing like there is no tomorrow: she is absolutely terrified of Maori and views every single Maori as being on the cusp of waging violent war on the rest of us.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:44am
- Grunter
  
  Down to Earth Kiwi Blog this morning expands on the discussion of why NZ is in the crap because of the Communist-style constitutional impacts of the extreme left.
  
  https://www.downtoearth.kiwi/post/now-we-know-how-nz-s-economy-got-broken-nz-s-judiciary-wrote-the-nation-a-communist-style-constitut?
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:40am
Yvette

Does Winston know?
From the Transcript of “David Seymour’s Treaty Principles Bill. What Luxon Must Do Before It’s Too Late”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOyddq-mzsc

Julian Batchelor… As a nation, we fought against apartheid in South Africa, yet now some feel we’re embracing it here.

Luxon’s silence on these issues before his election was a red flag. His hidden ideological agenda became even more apparent when it was revealed that he had engaged with a Māori advisor before entering politics. Monday’s press conference confirmed my suspicions. Luxon let his guard down and revealed his true stance: he believes in the so-called Treaty partnership and supports co-governance arrangements between the Crown and Māori. These beliefs are rooted in his conviction that Māori were wronged in 1840 and that it’s his mission to set things right. This explains his [Luxon’s] opposition to Seymour’s bill. […]

The National Party needs to reset its approach. Instead of debating the Treaty’s modern meaning, they should return to its original 1840 intent. This means rejecting activist-driven reinterpretations and adhering to the Treaty’s original principles:

1 The New Zealand government has the right to govern all New Zealanders.
2 The government will honor the rights of all individuals to their land and property.
3 All New Zealanders are equal under the law, with the same rights and responsibilities.

These principles are straightforward and faithful to the Treaty’s intent. Supporting David Seymour’s bill would honor the original Treaty and the chiefs who signed it, as well as the British who worked to establish the colony.

In conclusion, I urge Chris Luxon to rethink his stance and support Seymour’s bill. This isn’t just about addressing contemporary concerns — it’s about preserving the integrity of our history and ensuring a unified future for all New Zealanders. […]

We never heard anything about the meeting Luxon had with the late Maori King just prior to the Maori Kings’s first Hui ā-Motu, in January at Tūrangawaewae Marae in Ngāruawāhia.

Nor do we know – see Donald Rumsfeld on unknown unknowns and “the ones we don’t know we don’t know” – the content of the Report Willie Jackson was preparing on the Hui (about 72 of them) responding to He Paupau to be offered for consideration of Cabinet, but held back by Jackson to rewrite about 20 percent of the Report because he knew his Cabinet colleagues would not find it acceptable, then the Report was shelved somewhere because of the then imminent Election – so where is that Report, huh?
Does Winston know?

Kiingitangi spokesperson Ngira Simmonds said she had a message of hope for the nation to come together and work through current divisions.
“The Māori Queen is willing to help lead a conversation about nationhood and national unity but she will not accept a unilateral process that undermines Te Tiriti o Waitangi.
“The day for constitutional reform will come, but it must be done in good faith and in accordance with tikanga, and in full acknowledgement of the foundations of our nation bound together through Te Tiriti o Waitangi as Tangata Whenua and Tangata Tiriti,” Simmonds said.
He said Te Kiingitangi stands ready to support the nation in a way that uplifts Kotahitanga and mana motuhake.”As the late Kiingi Tuheitia said at te Hui-aa-Motu earlier this year, the best protest we can do is to be Māori all day everyday,” Simmonds said. https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/11/18/maori-queen-to-join-te-hikoi-mo-te-tiriti/

Is that the content, the aspirations, of the hidden Willie Jackson Report?
Is it within the 2010 Sharples announced restraint that the Treaty would define the extent of engagement with UNDRIP?
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November 18, 2024 8:08am
- Burtland
  
  Tuku said the maori queen couldnt speak for a year – were we being mislead?
  
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  November 18, 2024 8:50am
  - MCōs
    
    Make an official complaint
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:18am
  - pdm
    
    Burt – that is said to be the protocol.
    
    But, don’t panic Tuku will be in full flight and deliver more than the required diatribe.
    
    Shame really because if the new Queen is even remotely like her late Grandmother Dame (Queen) Te Atairangikaahu she will make a hell of lot more sense than anything Morgan spews out.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:29am
  - Graeme Hall
    
    Forked tongue..
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:31am
Keep on

Did Matt Walsh go over the top with his take on the haka disgrace?
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November 18, 2024 8:08am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Depends on what you think of the haka.
  
  What if the All Blacks retired the ritual, pointing out that it symbolises the violence of a culture which has no place in modern society?
  
  Some folk would cheer. Some would lose their minds.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:31am
- Cassandra
  
  No. He described what he saw, from his perspective. As he is entitled to. It’s not a public billboard – nobody has to look at him. But if you choose to then you’ll get what he thinks. And I thought the Scott Joplin bit was priceless.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:34am
- kowtow
  
  Did Haka Hana and her Maori Party MPs , along with the whole of the opposition , on their feet in defiance of the Speaker , go ott in disrespecting the House.
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:39am
Yvette

The Māori Queen, Nga wai hono i te po will be among supporters of the national hīkoi [te hīkoi mō te Tiriti] making its way to Parliament on Tuesday.
The hīkoi is in opposition of the Treaty Principles Bill and government’s policies affecting Māori.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/534053/maori-queen-to-join-te-hikoi-mo-te-tiriti

[The Maori Queen] is about to make her first major appearance since her father’s death as thousands make their way south to attend tomorrow’s final hui ā-motu. As per tikanga, she is not expected to speak at the event following so soon after the death of her father, Simmonds said. … “In keeping with our tikanga, with our customs and traditions, for the first 12 months following the death of the king, the queen will keep silence.”
https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/10/21/maori-queen-to-attend-final-hui-a-motu-hosted-by-ngai-tahu/

Date introduction of the Bill 7 November 2024 
Date of report back from select committee 19 May 2025
the Maori Queen will not supposedly break her silence until 31 August 2025

A case of actions speaking louder than words?
And how open is that to being misconstrued?
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November 18, 2024 8:13am
- Burtland
  
  more tribal elite transparency
  
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  November 18, 2024 8:53am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

More on DOGE.
Can we please have Musk and Ramaswamy visit NZ to sort out our bloated and corrupt Public Sector? Take no prisoners.

https://crystalclearnews.com/musk-and-ramaswamy-to-revolutionize-government-with-new-efficiency-department/?
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November 18, 2024 8:20am
- Lance
  
  Letting Musk near anything is a recipe for financial ruin. I would prefer someone who doesn’t lose colosal amounts of money on anything they touch and whose real source of income is subsidies from tax payers and gullible investors (presently losing their shirts).
  
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  November 18, 2024 8:28am
  - In Vino Veritas
    
    Couple of things Lance. There were many who were quite happy to ride the (immense) upside of some of the stuff he “touched”. And he doesn’t have an “income”. You might recall that he was attacked by the Democrats as not paying any tax. That’s because he didn’t have taxable income. His fortune waxes and wanes with the value of the companies he owns. He lives off loans (that are repayable) and by selling shares. Which he was loathe to do until he had twitter vote on him selling Tesla shares. Which triggered an massive tax payment.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:28am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Financial ruin of the American Public Sector. I think that is the plan and the swamp won’t like it. Destroy it and rebuild.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:48am
- Burtland
  
  looks like America may have “jumped the shark”
  
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  November 18, 2024 8:44am
- MCōs
  
  We were lead to believe Peter Thiel was going to be marvelous for NZ if he was made a citizen too.
  He didn’t come here for ceremony and I don’t think he’s been here since
  We’re only here for their comedians to poke fun at
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:26am
BarryB

Ukraine. What a mess.
Its now starting to look like the inevitable outcome of the Ukraine/Russia conflict will
be what seemed to be obvious from the start (which was actually be about 2014) – and that is a more or less type of armistice. The culturally Russian east of Ukraine will remain part of Russia along with the Crimea.

The only losers will be the people of Ukraine – John and Jill Citizen whose country has been ruined by the stupid belief that Ukraine would become part of NATO.

Several things point to this. First is Trumps election victory – he has said previously that the European members of NATO have been under paying their payments into NATO munitions supply and thus why should the US make up the difference.
Germanys Sholz has recognized the obvious and has started talking to the Russians. (Germany has a law that says any enterprise that is harmed by Germany getting involved in hostilities has to be recompensed by the German Government)
But the Poles have uped the anti a bit. The Ukraine was largely part of Poland before about 1900. In recent times the Poles have been activating their airforce when the Russians send air attacks to the Ukraine, and in fact have been active in Ukraine airspace – Sounds a bit risky – but history is important here (as it is in most European arguments).
Besides the Ukraine being historically part of Poland, the poles are also annoyed about WW2 restitution. The penalties imposed on Germany after WW2 went to the USSR and Poland got none of them. A few years ago Poland made a claim on Germany for those damages – but as one would expect the Germans said they’ve been paid – go ask the USSR for them. It would suit the Poles if Ukraine collapsed and they could take over by recovering the area of Ukraine that was originally lost to Russia/USSR. And as Zelenskyy is generally regarded as a questionable character his downfall is highly likely to set off what would generally be called ‘social unrest’ and thus the arrival of a few Polish troops to maintain social order would suit the poles very nicely. They have much experience with troops being sent in to maintain order and forgetting to go home…….
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November 18, 2024 8:26am
- Grunter
  
  I’ll add onto your comments BarryB….
  
  In recent days the evil Zelensky has shown his true depth of stupidity by announcing that Ukraine has enough nuclear material to make 17 “dirty bombs” the size of the A-bombs dropped on Japan.
  
  This pretty much secures Ukraine’s fate. The Ruskies already have zero trust of Ukraine & the West. A renewed threat of nukes (and remember Zelensy did this back in early 2022 just before Putin sent his troops in) will only bring on a Russian response that annihilates Ukraine.
  
  And yes, the biggest losers in all of this are the innocent civilians (Ukrainian & Russian) that will be killed in the coming months.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:06am
  - Lance
    
    Grunter wrote:
    “the biggest losers in all of this are the innocent civilians (Ukrainian & Russian) that will be killed in the coming months.”
    
    So you agree this is just Putin empire building over the corpses of the innocent!
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:57am
    - kowtow
      
      Not to mention the huge death toll to his own soldiery and what will be for many tens of thousands more life long severe injuries and disabilities .
      
      They and their families will not be Putin Fanbois .
      
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      November 18, 2024 10:42am
- MCōs
  
  It’s not ‘the’ Ukraine. It’s a sovereign state.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:33am
- Lance
  
  Do you REALLY think Putin will just take a big chunk of Ukraine and leave it at that (like he did with Crimea /sarc/) and not just rearm (and recover from the shit show the Russian economy has become) and just carry on. Then to invade more countries like the Baltic states or Moldova etc?
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:54am
  - Ghost
    
    What shit show?
    
    https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2024/09/26/why-russia-s-economy-is-holding-up-despite-sanctions-inflation-and-labor-shortages_6727299_19.html
    
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    November 18, 2024 10:17am
    - Lance
      
      Oh FFS
      Russia is running a war economy which is only a short term measure before you have to pay the piper. The govt is paying for war production (which is not a financial investment but an expense) as opposed to exporting earning income.
      Inflation is now rising rapidly, exports dropping while the Ruble falls in value.
      https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-economy-outlook-stagflation-recession-inflation-gdp-growth-ukraine-war-2024-11
      
      https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/currency
      
      Further Russia has nationalised most foreign installations, especially oil and gas with zero compensation. This will lead to a dramatic drop in production as the infrastructure fails with lack of expertise, equipment, replacements parts (embargoed) and lack of future investments.
      
      If Putin can destroy Ukraine before his economy is buggered, he wins. If not, Russia is in deep shit.
      
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      November 18, 2024 10:50am
- rouppe
  
  I sometimes think that the areas of Eastern Ukraine fought over are now such a destroyed wasteland that Russia can have it.
  
  There are few options left.
  1. Ukraine pushes Russia out on its own. Not going to happen, they just don’t have the resources. Although Russia bringing in NK troops suggests they’re also scraping the bottom of the barrel.
  2. Europe combines and pushes Russia out. Don’t see any appetite for that.
  3. Russia overwhelms Ukraine. Would have done it by now if they could, don’t think that’s likely.
  4. Negotiated settlement. Most likely. Whoever ends up with the east is going to have an enormous reconstruction job.
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:03am
  - Taieri
    
    Although Russia bringing in NK troops suggests they’re also scraping the bottom of the barrel.
    ———-
    
    Cannon fodder. No Russian wife or mother is going to worry about NK lives.
    
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    November 18, 2024 10:52am
- Burtland
  
  Biden just upped the ante …
  
  https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/17/europe/analysis-biden-atacms-ukraine-intl-latam/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:36am
- Taieri
  
  and in fact have been active in Ukraine airspace
  ——–
  
  Polish military aircraft have NOT been active in the UKRAINIAN airspace.
  
  “Polish and allied aircraft have been scrambled in Polish airspace in response to a large-scale Russian attack involving cruise and ballistic missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles and targeting sites in western Ukraine.”
  
  https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/11/17/7484905/
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:49am
nathie

Too many people are fixated on the pros and cons of the Treaty Principles Bill and by extension the perspectives of Seymour v Luxon etc.

But if one listens to Hikoi protesters (particularly the activists) they are talking about “sovereignty”, i.e. that Maori didn’t cede it.

(Hence why Seymour & the Coalition are the bad guys etc. Which of course our left-leaning MSM lap up).

And this is the same view (“that sovereignty wasn’t ceded”) that is now prevalent in education, the legal profession, even the Labour Party etc.

Think He Puapua – the blue print is there. 2040 is the destination.

So if Seymour’s bill fails, he needs to address this issue of “sovereignty”. It is the number one driver of this divisive path the far-left and the PMC Left (and now our institutions) will continue to travel.

We know National and NZF do not support this revisional “didn’t cede sovereignty” stance so ACT will be in good company.

That then puts pressure on the Labour Party, to actually make it clear where they stand on this issue.

And it will divide Labour to an extent, but of course it shouldn’t if they were to be honest.

Among the many reasons why Labour lost the 2023 election was that of He Puapua. Hipkins admitted they didn’t explain themselves and failed to take the public along with them. Even Willie Jackson could see this being a problem.

We need to all focus on this issue (“sovereignty”) not these other sides shows.

https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/360486421/im-proud-you-all-thousands-greet-hikoi-it-travels-down-aotearoahttps://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/360486421/im-proud-you-all-thousands-greet-hikoi-it-travels-down-aotearoa
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November 18, 2024 8:28am
- Grunter
  
  “We know National and NZF do not support this revisional “didn’t cede sovereignty” stance so ACT will be in good company.”
  
  Luxon….”there’s nothing I like about this Bill”
  
  So Nah – ACT are the ONLY remaining political party that support having a clear law stating that the Govt have sovereignty. Luxon sees this “evolving over time”. Hipkins agrees with The Maori Apartheid Party – sovereignty was not ceeded in 1840
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:11am
  - nathie
    
    That’s not correct.
    
    Northern iwi Ngāti Hine and Ngāti Manu have penned an open letter to the prime minister demanding he acknowledge Māori did not cede sovereignty to the Crown.
    
    Christopher Luxon told Parliament last week during Question Time the Crown was “sovereign” and Māori ceded sovereignty when signing the Treaty of Waitangi.
    
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/526393/iwi-write-to-pm-demanding-recognition-maori-did-not-cede-sovereignty
    
    I hope you are not fermenting division on the right?!
    
    Because ACT, National and NZF are lockstep on this issue.
    
    So let’s now put the pressure on Labour to explain their stance.
    
    For the sake of unity of this country.
    
    7 0
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    November 18, 2024 9:42am
    - RoboRob
      
      You are right. National & Luxon say Maori did cede sovereignty. However Luxon is also adamant that Maori are in a partnership with the crown. The two are mutually exclusive by definition so which is Luxon lying about?
      
      5 0
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      November 18, 2024 10:04am
- Colville
  
  There will be no progress until there is an honest discussion regarding the historical context of the Treaty, who sought it, who gained and why?
  
  In 1840, what was her that the Queen wanted?
  SFA I would think.
  Why would She want to station troops here and have them die on foreign land??
  
  9 0
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  November 18, 2024 9:17am
  - pdm
    
    Colville – or even die getting here.
    
    5 0
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    November 18, 2024 9:34am
  - MCōs
    
    Exploitation. Just like everywhere else
    
    1 5
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    November 18, 2024 9:38am
    - Taieri
      
      Exploitation
      ———
      
      Of what?
      
      0 0
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      November 18, 2024 10:53am
  - David Garrett
    
    Colville: In 1840, what was here that the Queen wanted?
    
    You are quite correct: there was nothing here that the Queen wanted, and the evidence clearly shows that the Brits were very reluctant to make NZ a colony.
    
    I firmly believe that in 1840 the Brits acted – reluctantly – with the very best of intentions, and further that Maori gained far more than they lost from the supposedly dreadful colonization.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:51am
- kiwikidsnz
  
  Evidence that Northern Maori knew they were ceding sovereignty to the Crown when they signed the Treaty of Waitangi – fact checking the Waitangi Tribunal 2014 findings and the 2023 findings released on the 8th of December 2023.
  
  https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2023/12/lawrie-knight-fact-checking-waitangi.html?m=1
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:21am
  - nathie
    
    Brilliant, we need to amplify these views. But more importantly, politicians that have access to the media need to.
    
    Sure, we’ve see it all before (i.e. said and discussed by various people and authors and historians) but for some reason the activists and the institutions “talk over” this.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:39am
- Ehlana
  
  I understand the claim that Maori did not cede sovereignty. But does it follow that they cannot have lost it?
  If a tribe/nation invades and conquers the territory of another, do they not become sovereign in that territory? Does it depend on whether or not they totally wipe out the conquered people?
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:37am
  - Don Beckett
    
    The British in supporting settlers did not ‘conquer’ New Zealand. The Maori tribes were not a united nation. The whole purpose of the Treaty was to prevent the necessity of ‘conquering’ NZ, and to prevent any further inter-tribal warfare – which, as the wise old chiefs who signed the treaty said, “our young men are all killing each other & we want /need it to stop”.
    
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    November 18, 2024 11:05am
    - Bridgenag
      
      Well said
      
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      November 18, 2024 11:14am
I remember when

“If demonstrations against the bill lead to political violence, civic disorder, or both, then Seymour will come under severe attack from his establishment critics.” Bryce Edwards.

An open invitation to those opposing the Bill?
23 0
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November 18, 2024 8:41am
- Benedict Yu
  
  I wonder whether David Seymour currently has a security detail?
  
  9 0
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  November 18, 2024 9:33am
  - MCōs
    
    Of course he would
    One can imagine the amount of threatening vitriol that comes his way. Look what happened to the far less controversial James Shaw
    Anyone who sticks their head above the ramparts attracts withering online fire we don’t normally hear about, particularly women and particularly Māori women
    
    5 5
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    November 18, 2024 9:52am
  - cmm
    
    The other part to this is asking whether the security detail would do anything. Are they scared of being called racist?
    
    6 1
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    November 18, 2024 10:20am
- kowtow
  
  Why are these “thought leaders” blaming Seymour .
  
  They should be saying ‘political violence, civic disorder’ have no place in NZ , it’s not how we do things in a liberal democracy .
  
  10 1
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  November 18, 2024 9:55am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Why are these “thought leaders” blaming Seymour .
    
    Indeed.
    
    He’s not the one using violent language or making threatening gestures or employing violent imagery.
    
    7 0
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    November 18, 2024 10:44am
Bridgenag

Sunday Strip: The Free Market of Ideas
Is out of their control

https://open.substack.com/pub/rwmalonemd/p/sunday-strip-the-free-market-of-ideas?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
6 1
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November 18, 2024 8:45am
G152

How is the bus trip with walk throughs going????
And how are they all going to get back to their homes ???????
8 2
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November 18, 2024 8:50am
I remember when

Although there hasn’t been much talk as to why, there seems to be an increased interest in rugby among the general public.
Suddenly there is an influx of exciting new players.
Why is it happening and is there, as they like to say, any ‘learnings.’
Does it highlight the failure to introduce a ‘new broom’ when Hansen retired?
3 3
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November 18, 2024 8:59am
- pdm
  
  The Razor influence.
  
  He is now getting the forward selections right.
  
  A bit of work to do with the backs – especially 10, 12 and 13.
  
  3 1
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  November 18, 2024 9:53am
Maggy Wassilieff

Taxpayer funded programmes taking a very activist stance….

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2411/S00120/rnz-host-needs-to-at-least-give-pretence-of-impartiality.htm
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November 18, 2024 9:01am
- nathie
  
  Presumably Forbes does this because she believes she is on the “right side of history” (i.e. Maori “didn’t cede sovereignty”) therefore being impartial isn’t necessary.
  
  If anything presumably she thinks she is “impartial” (and the likes of ACT are on the “wrong side of history).
  
  The politicians need to view these issues through this lens.
  
  And the likes of Labour need to be held to account to explain their position, clearly and concisely.
  
  And it will be painful for Labour, so they will do their best to avoid it.
  
  But once Labour has these “difficult” conversations in public, the nation will be better for it.
  
  Either Labour support the Maori activist viewpoint that Maori (tribes in reality – not common Maori people) should have greater control.
  
  Or they don’t.
  
  And if the latter, naive elements of the MSM can be unburdened to think and report on this issue with a degree of balance by considering what sort of future this country should have for the betterment of its multi-cultural society, all citizens at all levels, the rule of law and privilege/class etc.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:33am
- RoboRob
  
  Is this the perfect ‘excuse’ for the minister of braodcasting to ‘step in’ at RNZ. If RNZ are in breach of their integrity and conduct standards the board, at least, needs to act.
  
  10 0
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  November 18, 2024 9:35am
Matt Long

Jenny Shipley announces she can lose National more support than Wayne Mapp ever dreamed of.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/533944/treaty-principles-bill-inviting-civil-war-jenny-shipley-says
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November 18, 2024 9:02am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  When I have my leftie mates telling me I must listen to Jenny Shipley, I wonder if they have lost a few too many brain cells.
  
  30 0
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  November 18, 2024 9:14am
  - Tricati
    
    Clearly they didn’t have money invested in Mainzeal.
    
    4 0
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    November 18, 2024 10:49am
- BananaLlama
  
  That is a really outrageous statement from her because the next thought that comes to mind is should we prepare ourselves for civil war.
  
  11 0
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  November 18, 2024 9:34am
- RoboRob
  
  Shipley, Mapp and Luxon, proof positive that National are just Labour with better management. I have heard this many times and always disregarded it, but Luxon really has me thinking its true.
  
  Oh and G from Dunedin (and others) National and NZF know full well that their strategy of going through every piece of legislation and surgically removing treaty references they dont agree with is…
  
  1. Never going to be finished.
  They will never check and edit every piece of legislation and national and local body levels. I’m not even sure if they have updated even one piece of legislation yet.
  
  2. Not going to stop future governments adding stuff back in
  Yes you can never stop a future government changing legislation but Seymours bill is much more likely to provide a long term change in direction.
  
  3.Not going to end legal issues in and around the RMA
  
  They know all this, we know all this, so why are we ok with them doing this?
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:46am
BeaB

Does Debs actually know how to do a haka?
9 0
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November 18, 2024 9:03am
- Flossie
  
  I wonder does she know how to do an Irish jig? Or just like so many Maori activists does she ignore the other half of her ancestry.
  
  16 0
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  November 18, 2024 9:19am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Must have some Hawaiian blood…..
    
    4 0
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    November 18, 2024 10:18am
    - Flossie
      
      Seriously I’m giving the benefit of the doubt that one half of her is actually full Maori. I’d bet her father is somewhat of mixed race himself.
      
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      November 18, 2024 10:38am
Matt Long

America humiliated at Apec with President Biden relegated to the back row with people like Luxon, while Xi basks in the glory, front and centre.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-awkwardly-stands-apec-photo-chinas-xi-jinping-front-center
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November 18, 2024 9:04am
Maggy Wassilieff

Another “kindness” idea ends up creating mayhem.

I met with a bus driver seriously assaulted by fare dodgers and relayed his concerns to AT. Since then, I have been told by a bus contractor that AT has been repeatedly warned that its lax policy on fare dodging is leading to violence.

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2411/S00118/fare-dodging-leads-to-violence.htm
16 0
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November 18, 2024 9:06am
- peterwn
  
  Unfortunately their union in a way asked for it by telling drivers not to collect fares several years ago as a form of industrial action. The drivers also deactivated the HOP readers so passengers wanting to pay could not. So some people just got in the habit of not paying fares.
  Perhaps bus drivers should not be expected to enforce payment but have a discreet means sending a signal when someone does not tap on so a roving inspector if available can intercept the bus.
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:28am
bennerg

Further to previous posts on the matter, I was delighted to see the reporting on TV One News 6pm Sunday that there are now calls from professionals to negotiate with Tom Phillips, re the return of him and his family to normal life. A position I took some weeks ago to a mixture of acclaim and vitriol.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/11/17/missing-marokopa-children-calls-to-negotiate-with-tom-phillips/

What was critical in this reporting was the admission of the part played by the Family Court in the whole affair, and anyone with any dealings with this entity knows of the strong bias that institution has against fathers. It also through implication confirmed that the mother had not had involvement with the kids for a period, [Mod – unsubstantiated rumour deleted]

What was heartening, was to see some genuinely positive thinking in how to deal with the situation. More than one “expert” was advocating that should they negotiate a return, to make sure the kid’s interests are top priority. And that it was imperative that they are not separated from their father. Yay! Common sense prevails.

Given recent reports on this blog of decisions made by our Courts, then if any allegations are found to be true, then I would say a sentence of Community Service for 6 months would be appropriate, and given his experience, working with kids developing self sufficiency skills may well be appropriate and a win – win.

Next, the Government needs to establish an independent Commission to review the parts played by the The Family Court, Social Services, the Police, and others in handling of this case. “If you ignore the canary, you risk blowing up the mine”.
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November 18, 2024 9:59am
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/360490166/surprise-car-now-amongst-most-stolen-nz

“MoneyHub also collected data on vehicle thefts by region and by colour. Counties Manukau had the most recorded thefts over the six-month period (687), followed by Canterbury (564) and Waitematā (522). It noted that Northland had the greatest number of thefts per capita, at 15 per 10,000 people to Counties Manukau’s 13.”

No surprises then.
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November 18, 2024 10:03am
AitchW

Why is it that National ex PMs swing to the left? Bolger did it now Shipley seems to be going that way too.
Are they simply Chardonnay socialists or have they been infected with the DEI virus sweeping corporate NZ?
Or are they hoping to curry favour with the left to get onto a few working parties when Labour returns to power?
9 1
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November 18, 2024 10:06am
- bennerg
  
  “If You Lie Down With Dogs, You Get Up With Fleas”
  
  It comes down to the company they keep. As politicians they have become public property, and hence the focus of any group or individual wishing to lobby for their cause. Many forgot to wear a mental “prophylactic” when dealing with such people.
  
  What must be kept in mind is that they all served in the “House of Representatives”, and therefore should be remembered for their ability to serve the public, and not use the position to their advantage and reverse the flow by attempting to tell us what we should be, and that to think.
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:48am
rangitoto

Sabine Hossenfelder: Science is in trouble https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtxjatbVb7M
5 0
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November 18, 2024 10:07am
- bennerg
  
  Good discussion in the comments of that video.
  
  3 0
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  November 18, 2024 10:32am
Scooter

Poor little kid and we can pretty much guess the ethnicity but the media is keeping very quiet and it’s well down on the list of news items.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/whakatane-homicide-inquiry-boy-8-dies-in-hospital/MVLULTI7KNFHVJZAZBEMSVBBM4/
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November 18, 2024 10:18am
cmm

“They had no shoes, no lunches, but I wanted to know why”

It really is very easy:
Stop blaming the government and the taxpayer.
Blame the useless deadbeat parents.
Maybe look in the mirror.

Scribbling on your face and yelling at white people is not going to fix anything. Start yelling at the useless parents.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360483715/hikoi-leader-eru-kapa-kingi-they-had-no-shoes-no-lunches-i-wanted-know-why
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November 18, 2024 10:48am
- Tricati
  
  My post of the day – well said
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:50am

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