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November 18, 2024 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 18 November 2024

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General Debate

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NeverMindTheBollocks

If those Restore Passenger Rail climate action people really have the courage of their convictions, they’ll be blocking SH1 at Ngauranga Gorge tomorrow morning.

Treaty carkois are all very well, but climate change is existential, don’t you know.
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November 18, 2024 8:01am
- Colville
  
  I would take a lawnchair and a bowl of popcorn and go watch that!
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:08am
  - sirknz
    
    The breathless media would add you to the numbers with a multiplier of 10.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:32am
    - Colville
      
      The way I have been putting weight on that might be fair..!
      
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      November 18, 2024 7:57pm
  - Keith White
    
    Will both sides be carrying donor cards? Asking for a neighbour who needs a new kidney but is the wrong ethnicity to move faster up the queue…
    
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    November 18, 2024 3:13pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  That would be very funny to watch.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:23am
- cmm
  
  I’m more than happy for them to put their money where their mouths are and pay full price for train tickets.
  No more taxpayer subsidies.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:39am
Grunter

Seymour on Hosking this morning was once again on point and very clear regards the Treaty Bill. He called out former PM Shipley for her bizarre comments about inviting a civil war.

By my calculation, we now have almost 90% of politicians now supporting the Māori Apartheid Party and their dangerous antics. Hipkins about to join their protest march.

So far, zero logical counter arguments from anyone. Just emotional rubbish and meaningless word salads. No realistic alternatives.

Can NZ thrive as a country if the current PM thinks our sovereignty and property laws can “evolve with the times”…….???

We are clearly in the crap big time!
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November 18, 2024 8:07am
- Burtland
  
  from the Hikoi …
  
  Misba – born in Indian now calling aotearoa home
  
  “we need to make our stand clear to te treaty and the atrocities that have been happening here in the government”
  
  seems some Indians are joining the “haters and wreckers”
  
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018964583/hikoi-m-te-tiriti-arrives-in-porirua
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:05am
  - Flossie
    
    Atrocities? Like what?
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:31am
    - burt
      
      They are going to treat all people the same !
      
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      November 18, 2024 11:39am
      - Flossie
        
        Not talking about future atrocities.
        Apparently they’ve already been happening…. “the atrocities that have been happening here in the government”
        
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        November 18, 2024 11:42am
  - John Loveridge
    
    Great, so now Indians are turning up here and, fresh off the plane, telling us how to run our own country. That’s after bailing from India, where atrocities do happen, in and out of government. The gall is breathtaking.
    
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    November 18, 2024 12:46pm
    - JimBobJoe
      
      Brits, Americans, Australians and Canadians have been doing so for quite a while: Two examples in Russel ‘Give me back my flag’ Norman and Julie Anne ‘Cars are the devils work’ Genter
      
      Overseas radicals stirring the pot in NZ is a long standing tradition – all the way back to the Labour Party’s official NZ Saint in Michael Joseph Savage
      
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      November 18, 2024 3:47pm
      - Pineapple Lumps
        
        As a NZer descended from immigrants who arrived in the 1860’s I notice that new arrivals, particularly from the UK, have a romanticised view of NZ and Māori specialness. They are very happy to get on board with Māori have special rights while not realising they are diminishing the rights of other NZers.
        
        Many immigrants are happy to jump on the bandwagon to decolonise NZ when all they are doing is colonising it themselves. It feels akin to inviting guests into your house to have them turn you out of it.
        
        But most of these new arrivals, even with citizenship rights, that say they are equal to the rest of us, are not loyal to NZ. Many jump to Australia as soon as they can. How many of them have the best interests of our country at heart?
        
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        November 18, 2024 5:52pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Apparently having an adult conversation to clarify what something really means is an “atrocity” for those who just prefer to act (insanely) on a general “vibe” instead.
    
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    November 18, 2024 6:26pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  The French do dumb things but I admire their constitution.
  
  All citizens are French. End of story. Employers cannot ask for your ethnicity and the government collects no data on ethnicity.
  
  If only we had that here.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:26am
  - kowtow
    
    All well and good but the French constitution does not run in the banlieues.
    
    NB nor does it help the future of the state that has just experienced its lowest birthrate since 1944 ( note that date) .
    
    Ou la la.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:49am
  - kiwi_chileno
    
    I like Chile’s Pinochet-era Constitution (1980 amended). Two attempts since 2021 to replace it failed after referendums.
    
    Article 1 – “Persons are born free and equal in dignity and rights.”
    
    Article 19 (2) “Equality before the law. In Chile there are neither privileged persons nor groups.”
    
    The Constitution also entrenches the ‘principle of subsidiarity’ – the State can only provide a social right (eg, education) if a private (for-profit or non-profit) entity cannot do so – “private solutions for public problems”. Hence, privatised education, healthcare, pensions, etc. Citizens also have the fundamental right to choose between a private or public provider. Some critics say that subsidiarity is the total, institutionalised, and permanent triumph of neo-liberalism.
    
    Te Parti Maori could fall foul of Article 19 (15) – “Parties, movements or other forms of organisation whose objectives, actions or conduct do not respect the basic principles of democratic and constitutional rule, who seek to establish a totalitarian system, as well as those which use violence, advocate or incite it as a method of political action, are unconstitutional.”
    
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    November 18, 2024 12:34pm
    - Mobile Michael
      
      TPM are just the latest rebrand of Communism.
      
      Stalin ruined the original.
      Castro ruined the knock-off.
      Mao ruined the rebrand.
      The Kims have ruined the remake.
      And now Chavez and Maduro have destroyed the attempt to relaunch the brand.
      
      Now we have brand version 7,529 – Te Tiriti Centric. Proving you can fool some people all the time.
      
      Thatcher, Douglas, Pinochet (although he was a nasty piece of work otherwise) and now Milei keep proving that market economics leads to better social outcomes. But truth doesn’t matter when you have a closed mind.
      
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      November 19, 2024 7:48am
  - Jake Dee
    
    Not collecting data on ethnicity is just stupid. Its a real thing and it doesn’t go away by not looking at it.
    Many great and good thing could be created by having a deeper understanding of human society and the various groups within it.
    if you are afraid to look for fear of what you might find then you are ceding power to those who are not afraid, which is as it should be.
    
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    November 18, 2024 2:38pm
- Mark Hanley
  
  I’m perplexed about Luxons stance.
  
  While I know the constitutional change process will require time to gain the overwhelming public support needed to make the change stick, Luxons harsh and unequivocal statements on the bill dying post select committee doesn’t leave the necessary wriggle room.
  
  Luxons assertion that treaty issues are more complex than Seymours treaty principals bill is simply not true. Without the treaty principals bill, Labour’s return will see the treaty being used as an excuse to funnel more money into selected Maori bank accounts.
  
  The next consideration is why the labour party hierarchy gave the Maori King so much money. It harmed Labour’s election prospects, it did nothing to improve Maori lives, and it certainly didn’t improve the lives of everyone else, so WHY?????
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:36am
  - Ghost
    
    There is absolutely nothing in this bill that stops labour returning and revoking the bill, continuing on their way they were before leaving office. Nothing stops that
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:38am
    - rouppe
      
      Absolutely true.
      
      Just as nothing stops Labour returning and putting Treaty Principles clauses back into the legislation that National and NZF might take references out of, sometime, possibly, in the future.
      
      Not to mention that each of those changes, to each of those pieces of legislation will each have to go through select committee individually, so they are going to each become subject to the vitriol we currently see. So same conversation, times 15, over the entire parliamentary term rather than just 6 months.
      
      What do you think that’s going to do to the mood of the country?
      
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      November 18, 2024 9:52am
    - RoboRob
      
      If the bill went through the whole process and a referendum was held and the bill got > 50% support then it would be VERY risky for any in coming government to simply remove it.
      
      Your ‘Labour can just dump it’ arguement also works for Nationals current principals removement system. Labour can just add them back in. It would actually be easier for Labour to do this then revoke a popular, referendumed piece of law.
      
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      November 18, 2024 9:58am
      - Ghost
        
        Labour won’t care about a referendum, it will be one of the first things along with charter schools they reverse. There is nothing you can do to stop that. The next labour, greens, maori government will reverse the bill, they will get rid of charter schools.
        
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        November 18, 2024 10:15am
      - RoboRob
        
        @Ghost
        
        Fear of what Labour might undo shouldn’t stop us from doing what we think is right.
        
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        November 18, 2024 10:40am
      - pdm
        
        RR
        
        I think you mean what we know is right.
        
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        November 18, 2024 12:38pm
    - peterwn
      
      A clause can be put into a bill to prevent its future repeal but it is ineffective unless the bill is passed by a 75% majority which will not happen.
      
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      November 18, 2024 10:16am
      - Paulus
        
        Only our top Judges can change any Laws that Parliament approve.
        
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        November 18, 2024 2:12pm
    - Mark Hanley
      
      You are correct from a legal view point, but not from a political.view point.
      
      Reversing legislation supported by 80% of voters will make Labour’s time in office very short. And if Kieron McNaulty learnt anything from Adern and Robertson, its that funnelling tax payers money off. Into friendly bank accounts, is best left until a new perceived threat is concocted, and that will require a 2nd term..
      
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      November 18, 2024 10:20am
      - Ghost
        
        Wow now we’re going up to 80% of the voters, people sure do pull figures out of nowhere. And no, labour won’t care, some of you have far more respect for labour than reality will show
        
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        November 18, 2024 10:21am
      - RoboRob
        
        @Ghost
        
        We wont know what the level of support for the bill is until a referendum is green lit. Certainly National, Labour & TPM all think it will receive over 50% support, which is why they are blocking it.
        
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        November 18, 2024 10:43am
      - Mark Hanley
        
        Survey results
        The Curia poll, published by pollster David Farrar this morning, shows 46% in support of the Bill’s proposed principles as agreed by Cabinet, versus just 25% opposed and 29% unsure.
        
        Will the 29% unsure be more likely to support universal equal human rights (the most successful constitutional underpinning in human history) or will they be more likely to vote for their hard earned tax dollars to flow into maori coffers in support of tribal rule? Depending on the answer, support is already potentially at 75%.
        
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        November 18, 2024 12:43pm
      - Ghost
        
        46% support, and you’ve invented that up to 80%.
        
        You should become a pollster for either labour of the democrats, pulling numbers out like that. Deal with actual numbers don’t bullshit them up
        
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        November 18, 2024 1:09pm
      - Mark Hanley
        
        Ghost is in full blown half truth devils advocate mode today. For example, I never said the referendum WILL get 80 pc support (although I suspect support will be overwhelming).
        
        I tend to skim over the KBers who spend their time criticizing and decrying others’ posted solutions, and surveys which support those solutions (especially KBers who use multiple monikers to give the illusion others support their negative antics)
        
        It is much more difficult and useful to concoct and post solutions… so come on ghost… what is your solution for ensuring all NZers get universal and equal human rights?
        
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        November 18, 2024 1:23pm
      - Ghost
        
        Reversing legislation supported by 80% of voters will make Labour’s time in office very short.
        
        There isn’t 80% support. You’ve pulled that figure out of nowhere. Then you’ve taken David’s poll of 46% support and invented that up to 75%. Get a job for the democrats or labour, you could get them into government with your fiddling of numbers.
        
        There is no solution, the government do not have the votes to put in a supermajority provision, and that is the only way to stop such a bill being revoked by a labour greens maori government, and make no mistake, revoking it will be a condition of maori party going with labour.
        
        This bill is dead in the water, it won’t become law, all parties but one have said that. DPF gave the better solution when he said it shouldn’t be a treaty principle bill but entrenched into bill of rights
        
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        November 18, 2024 1:38pm
      - Mark Hanley
        
        And there we have it….. ghost who says the treaty principles bill won’t get 50% support (dead in the water) suggests the treaty principles should be embedded in the NZ constitution which requires a 75% majority.
        
        My comment that ghost is playing devils advocate is obviously wrong. Ghosts contradictory solution shows he simply doesn’t understand the complexities and nuance required for implementing positive change.
        
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        November 18, 2024 2:01pm
      - Ghost
        
        There is no support in parliament for it, apart from act. It isn’t going to a referendum, you’ve been told that by national and nz first. The bill is dead in the water. It will go to select committee, return to the house and be voted down in the second reading. The bill is dead. We know that because labour, maori, greens, NZ First and national do not support it. Once it has been through the select committee that is it. That is all that national and nz first agreed to do, that is what Seymour signed an agreement to do, to only take it to select committee. It’s dead as a door knob. You want to save some of that bill then you do what dpf suggested
        
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        November 18, 2024 2:19pm
    - Taieri
      
      There is absolutely nothing in this bill that stops labour returning and revoking the bill
      ————–
      
      Like in any other proposed or enacted legislation.
      According to your logic there’s no point in passing any laws because future government can revoke them.
      
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      November 18, 2024 10:42am
      - Mark Hanley
        
        Despite Ghosts comments showing he is merely playing devils adcocate.
        
        Your reply taieri is a doozy!
        
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        November 18, 2024 12:48pm
      - Ghost
        
        If people are going to claim that this bill will stop labour repealing the law then they are speaking bullshit, there is nothing in this law that does that. Even a binding referendum does not do that because future governments are not binded to that. The only way to stop that is with a supermajority provision, and the government does not have the votes to pass it as such
        
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        November 18, 2024 1:06pm
      - NothingLeft
        
        Entrenchment is a convention, but holds no power in law – a simple parliamentary majority can break it if they wish.
        
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        November 18, 2024 3:20pm
    - Philview
      
      I think Labour/Greens/TPM will do as you suggest and pick up where they left off. I fully anticipate in 2040 He Puapua will be implemented and various Iwi will control the country. There is already ideological control of the media and no doubt online political activity will be closed. There are deeply unpleasant younger leaders emerging who will be ruthless.
      
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      November 18, 2024 1:53pm
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    why the labour party hierarchy gave the Maori King so much money. It harmed Labour’s election prospects, it did nothing to improve Maori lives, and it certainly didn’t improve the lives of everyone else, so WHY?????
    
    Labour hierarchy could see that they were losing their traditional Maori support to TMP.
    
    They tried to keep a grip on the Ratana Maori vote by having Adrian Rurawhe as speaker and by devoting $$$$$ to Waikato-Tainui.
    
    But Waikato-Tainui were cosying up to TMP, some of Ratana had already shifted allegiance to TMP (Tariana Turia, Che Wilson)….and then Labour started losing control of some of their Maori MPs (Louisa Wall, Meka Whaitiri, Kiri Allan).
    
    I think its too late for Labour to attract in young Maori candidates.
    
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    November 18, 2024 10:27am
  - Paulus
    
    Why do the Maori buy KiwiBank – but who is going to pay !
    Both feel they need something that we the taxpayer pays.
    
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    November 18, 2024 11:51am
  - Mobile Michael
    
    If ACT hit 20% in polling next month, Luxon might change tune.
    
    I’m picking 15%, but you never know.
    
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    November 18, 2024 11:54am
    - pdm
      
      MM
      
      20% is probably wishful hoping but, a good next step would be for them to head off the awful Greens in the next Poll.
      
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      November 18, 2024 12:41pm
      - Colville
        
        Above their election result would be great at the moment. Even 10% is a distant dream.
        
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        November 18, 2024 8:00pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    “it did nothing to improve Maori lives”
    
    Why the obsession with everyone but the individuals involved being responsible for improving the individuals’ lives???
    
    Most (if not all) of “the gap” between *SOME* part-Maori and every else is generally due to faulty personal attitude (due to a self-defeating sub-culture of blaming other races, “colonisation”, “institutional racism” etc etc). How do we know this is true? Look at people from other ethnicities that have actually suffered real horrors in their own lives in horrible countries, then moved to NZ and then greatly improved their lives through working, saving and getting educated.
    
    Note: I am talking about able bodied people.
    
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    November 18, 2024 6:45pm
- cmm
  
  It has evolved with time.
  This stared in 1879 and is still evolving – getting more and more militant until we get some sort of civil war.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:41am
- Damocles11
  
  With her hysterical cries about civil war, the unhinged Shipley reveals exactly what she thinks about the vast majority of responsible Maori and why her and other blueboods are appeasing like there is no tomorrow: she is absolutely terrified of Maori and views every single Maori as being on the cusp of waging violent war on the rest of us.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:44am
  - Hollyfield
    
    The comments on youtube under Matt Walsh’s piece on the haka in NZ parliament are interesting – a cross-section of opinions but also lots such as “Maori here. The Maori Party assumes they speak for all of us. If we speak out we get thrown out of the tribe (silenced).”
    and
    “as a New Zealander with maori ancestry the Labor Left the Greens and Te Pati Maori have gone full woke, they are the same as the Democrat Party in USA. As a Maori we do not support this woke brigade mainly because it divides rather than unites. Thankyou Mr Walsh.”
    
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl1iZbqlN7c&t=508s
    
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    November 18, 2024 1:02pm
- Grunter
  
  Down to Earth Kiwi Blog this morning expands on the discussion of why NZ is in the crap because of the Communist-style constitutional impacts of the extreme left.
  
  https://www.downtoearth.kiwi/post/now-we-know-how-nz-s-economy-got-broken-nz-s-judiciary-wrote-the-nation-a-communist-style-constitut?
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:40am
- thirteenstars
  
  Shipley’s comments weren’t simply bizarre but unhinged, especially towards the end where she says she “despises” Seymour and opines that if he continues “civil war” could erupt:
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcQB9_giyKQ
  
  Here’s Seymour talking to Hosking:
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glN4OXJHMMA
  
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  November 18, 2024 1:01pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    These bizarre and IMHO stupid statements from the likes of Finlayson, Shipley, and Luxon (and sadly probably many others) indicate there is something totally rotten within the National party.
    
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    November 18, 2024 6:49pm
Yvette

Does Winston know?
From the Transcript of “David Seymour’s Treaty Principles Bill. What Luxon Must Do Before It’s Too Late”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOyddq-mzsc

Julian Batchelor… As a nation, we fought against apartheid in South Africa, yet now some feel we’re embracing it here.

Luxon’s silence on these issues before his election was a red flag. His hidden ideological agenda became even more apparent when it was revealed that he had engaged with a Māori advisor before entering politics. Monday’s press conference confirmed my suspicions. Luxon let his guard down and revealed his true stance: he believes in the so-called Treaty partnership and supports co-governance arrangements between the Crown and Māori. These beliefs are rooted in his conviction that Māori were wronged in 1840 and that it’s his mission to set things right. This explains his [Luxon’s] opposition to Seymour’s bill. […]

The National Party needs to reset its approach. Instead of debating the Treaty’s modern meaning, they should return to its original 1840 intent. This means rejecting activist-driven reinterpretations and adhering to the Treaty’s original principles:

1 The New Zealand government has the right to govern all New Zealanders.
2 The government will honor the rights of all individuals to their land and property.
3 All New Zealanders are equal under the law, with the same rights and responsibilities.

These principles are straightforward and faithful to the Treaty’s intent. Supporting David Seymour’s bill would honor the original Treaty and the chiefs who signed it, as well as the British who worked to establish the colony.

In conclusion, I urge Chris Luxon to rethink his stance and support Seymour’s bill. This isn’t just about addressing contemporary concerns — it’s about preserving the integrity of our history and ensuring a unified future for all New Zealanders. […]

We never heard anything about the meeting Luxon had with the late Maori King just prior to the Maori Kings’s first Hui ā-Motu, in January at Tūrangawaewae Marae in Ngāruawāhia.

Nor do we know – see Donald Rumsfeld on unknown unknowns and “the ones we don’t know we don’t know” – the content of the Report Willie Jackson was preparing on the Hui (about 72 of them) responding to He Paupau to be offered for consideration of Cabinet, but held back by Jackson to rewrite about 20 percent of the Report because he knew his Cabinet colleagues would not find it acceptable, then the Report was shelved somewhere because of the then imminent Election – so where is that Report, huh?
Does Winston know?

Kiingitangi spokesperson Ngira Simmonds said she had a message of hope for the nation to come together and work through current divisions.
“The Māori Queen is willing to help lead a conversation about nationhood and national unity but she will not accept a unilateral process that undermines Te Tiriti o Waitangi.
“The day for constitutional reform will come, but it must be done in good faith and in accordance with tikanga, and in full acknowledgement of the foundations of our nation bound together through Te Tiriti o Waitangi as Tangata Whenua and Tangata Tiriti,” Simmonds said.
He said Te Kiingitangi stands ready to support the nation in a way that uplifts Kotahitanga and mana motuhake.”As the late Kiingi Tuheitia said at te Hui-aa-Motu earlier this year, the best protest we can do is to be Māori all day everyday,” Simmonds said. https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/11/18/maori-queen-to-join-te-hikoi-mo-te-tiriti/

Is that the content, the aspirations, of the hidden Willie Jackson Report?
Is it within the 2010 Sharples announced restraint that the Treaty would define the extent of engagement with UNDRIP?
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November 18, 2024 8:08am
- Burtland
  
  Tuku said the maori queen couldnt speak for a year – were we being mislead?
  
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  November 18, 2024 8:50am
  - MCōs
    
    Make an official complaint
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:18am
  - pdm
    
    Burt – that is said to be the protocol.
    
    But, don’t panic Tuku will be in full flight and deliver more than the required diatribe.
    
    Shame really because if the new Queen is even remotely like her late Grandmother Dame (Queen) Te Atairangikaahu she will make a hell of lot more sense than anything Morgan spews out.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:29am
    - Paulus
      
      The new Taiuni Queen is of another generation whereby she has been educated like so many young Maori women, at our expence, to do as she is advised.
      If she is like so many more young Maori women currently heaven help us.
      
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      November 18, 2024 11:54am
  - Graeme Hall
    
    Forked tongue..
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:31am
Keep on

Did Matt Walsh go over the top with his take on the haka disgrace?
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November 18, 2024 8:08am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Depends on what you think of the haka.
  
  What if the All Blacks retired the ritual, pointing out that it symbolises the violence of a culture which has no place in modern society?
  
  Some folk would cheer. Some would lose their minds.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:31am
  - kowtow
    
    Depends on what you think of the House.
    
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    November 18, 2024 11:32am
  - Frankie Lee
    
    I’m sick to death of the haka, so I loved Matts roasting of the whole idiotic spectacle.
    
    And I would definitely cheer if the All Blacks retired it.
    
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    November 18, 2024 1:12pm
- Cassandra
  
  No. He described what he saw, from his perspective. As he is entitled to. It’s not a public billboard – nobody has to look at him. But if you choose to then you’ll get what he thinks. And I thought the Scott Joplin bit was priceless.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:34am
- kowtow
  
  Did Haka Hana and her Maori Party MPs , along with the whole of the opposition , on their feet in defiance of the Speaker , go ott in disrespecting the House.
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:39am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Gerry has enabled this behavior.
    He consistently allows them to go further and further.
    His looks of exasperation are wearing a bit thin, time to crack the whip and get the House into proper order.
    Get some cops into the House and into the Gallery and start dragging these bastards out.
    The country is fucked, and we have a Parliament watching cannibalistic war dances by people dressed from a clothing bin.
    
    No chance…
    
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    November 18, 2024 11:09am
- NZer In Exile
  
  Walsh framed it in the context of bizarre and amusing things that happen in various parliaments around the world.
  
  He also framed it in the context of most pre-European cultures being extremely brutal and undemocratic.
  
  He got it right that Seymour was being rational and reasonable and the usual suspects only had name-calling and threats.
  
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  November 18, 2024 6:54pm
  - Burtland
    
    it was interesting to compare Walsh’s observations with those of Colin Peacock from RNZ on the BBC
    
    Walsh got most of the framework right and roasted the stupidity – Peacock from RNZ regurgitated all the leftard lies.
    
    It highlighted the partisan NZ media lies.
    
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    November 19, 2024 6:59am
- julesnzuk
  
  No – he was pretty much bang on. The only caveat I would’ve added is that hakas are fine in moderation, when done properly and in the appropriate context – ie in the Army, military funerals, the All Blacks (the Buck Shelford rendition only).
  
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  November 19, 2024 12:53am
Yvette

The Māori Queen, Nga wai hono i te po will be among supporters of the national hīkoi [te hīkoi mō te Tiriti] making its way to Parliament on Tuesday.
The hīkoi is in opposition of the Treaty Principles Bill and government’s policies affecting Māori.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/534053/maori-queen-to-join-te-hikoi-mo-te-tiriti

[The Maori Queen] is about to make her first major appearance since her father’s death as thousands make their way south to attend tomorrow’s final hui ā-motu. As per tikanga, she is not expected to speak at the event following so soon after the death of her father, Simmonds said. … “In keeping with our tikanga, with our customs and traditions, for the first 12 months following the death of the king, the queen will keep silence.”
https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/10/21/maori-queen-to-attend-final-hui-a-motu-hosted-by-ngai-tahu/

Date introduction of the Bill 7 November 2024 
Date of report back from select committee 19 May 2025
the Maori Queen will not supposedly break her silence until 31 August 2025

A case of actions speaking louder than words?
And how open is that to being misconstrued?
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November 18, 2024 8:13am
- Burtland
  
  more tribal elite transparency
  
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  November 18, 2024 8:53am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

More on DOGE.
Can we please have Musk and Ramaswamy visit NZ to sort out our bloated and corrupt Public Sector? Take no prisoners.

https://crystalclearnews.com/musk-and-ramaswamy-to-revolutionize-government-with-new-efficiency-department/?
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November 18, 2024 8:20am
- Lance
  
  Letting Musk near anything is a recipe for financial ruin. I would prefer someone who doesn’t lose colosal amounts of money on anything they touch and whose real source of income is subsidies from tax payers and gullible investors (presently losing their shirts).
  
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  November 18, 2024 8:28am
  - In Vino Veritas
    
    Couple of things Lance. There were many who were quite happy to ride the (immense) upside of some of the stuff he “touched”. And he doesn’t have an “income”. You might recall that he was attacked by the Democrats as not paying any tax. That’s because he didn’t have taxable income. His fortune waxes and wanes with the value of the companies he owns. He lives off loans (that are repayable) and by selling shares. Which he was loathe to do until he had twitter vote on him selling Tesla shares. Which triggered an massive tax payment.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:28am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Financial ruin of the American Public Sector. I think that is the plan and the swamp won’t like it. Destroy it and rebuild.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:48am
- Burtland
  
  looks like America may have “jumped the shark”
  
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  November 18, 2024 8:44am
- MCōs
  
  We were lead to believe Peter Thiel was going to be marvelous for NZ if he was made a citizen too.
  He didn’t come here for ceremony and I don’t think he’s been here since
  We’re only here for their comedians to poke fun at
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:26am
BarryB

Ukraine. What a mess.
Its now starting to look like the inevitable outcome of the Ukraine/Russia conflict will
be what seemed to be obvious from the start (which was actually be about 2014) – and that is a more or less type of armistice. The culturally Russian east of Ukraine will remain part of Russia along with the Crimea.

The only losers will be the people of Ukraine – John and Jill Citizen whose country has been ruined by the stupid belief that Ukraine would become part of NATO.

Several things point to this. First is Trumps election victory – he has said previously that the European members of NATO have been under paying their payments into NATO munitions supply and thus why should the US make up the difference.
Germanys Sholz has recognized the obvious and has started talking to the Russians. (Germany has a law that says any enterprise that is harmed by Germany getting involved in hostilities has to be recompensed by the German Government)
But the Poles have uped the anti a bit. The Ukraine was largely part of Poland before about 1900. In recent times the Poles have been activating their airforce when the Russians send air attacks to the Ukraine, and in fact have been active in Ukraine airspace – Sounds a bit risky – but history is important here (as it is in most European arguments).
Besides the Ukraine being historically part of Poland, the poles are also annoyed about WW2 restitution. The penalties imposed on Germany after WW2 went to the USSR and Poland got none of them. A few years ago Poland made a claim on Germany for those damages – but as one would expect the Germans said they’ve been paid – go ask the USSR for them. It would suit the Poles if Ukraine collapsed and they could take over by recovering the area of Ukraine that was originally lost to Russia/USSR. And as Zelenskyy is generally regarded as a questionable character his downfall is highly likely to set off what would generally be called ‘social unrest’ and thus the arrival of a few Polish troops to maintain social order would suit the poles very nicely. They have much experience with troops being sent in to maintain order and forgetting to go home…….
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November 18, 2024 8:26am
- Grunter
  
  I’ll add onto your comments BarryB….
  
  In recent days the evil Zelensky has shown his true depth of stupidity by announcing that Ukraine has enough nuclear material to make 17 “dirty bombs” the size of the A-bombs dropped on Japan.
  
  This pretty much secures Ukraine’s fate. The Ruskies already have zero trust of Ukraine & the West. A renewed threat of nukes (and remember Zelensy did this back in early 2022 just before Putin sent his troops in) will only bring on a Russian response that annihilates Ukraine.
  
  And yes, the biggest losers in all of this are the innocent civilians (Ukrainian & Russian) that will be killed in the coming months.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:06am
  - Lance
    
    Grunter wrote:
    “the biggest losers in all of this are the innocent civilians (Ukrainian & Russian) that will be killed in the coming months.”
    
    So you agree this is just Putin empire building over the corpses of the innocent!
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:57am
    - kowtow
      
      Not to mention the huge death toll to his own soldiery and what will be for many tens of thousands more life long severe injuries and disabilities .
      
      They and their families will not be Putin Fanbois .
      
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      November 18, 2024 10:42am
    - Grunter
      
      Lance – conjure up whatever words you like, but that is not what I said, and I never have. Just to be clear with your silly game – “Putin is NOT empire building”
      
      Putin does not have the resources to empire build. But he does have the resources to defend his western borders, which is obviously what he is doing.
      
      It is possibly too subtle for you to comprehend that when a neighbor, backed by the power of NATO, threatens you with nukes and joining your declared enemy (NATO) that you would react somehow.
      
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      November 18, 2024 4:18pm
      - Lance
        
        Ukraine only mentioned NATO AFTER Russia INVADED and annexed Crimea in a brutal murderous war.
        So I call bullshit on your analysis of Putin’s benign stand point.
        
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        November 18, 2024 4:57pm
      - Grunter
        
        Lance – that is clearly wrong. Now you are just making up weird stuff that no one could defend. I’ll make a note in future not to debate with you and waste everyone’s time.
        
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        November 18, 2024 6:38pm
  - Jake Dee
    
    I’ll look into that but I doubt its true.
    Anyone who has control of a nuclear power station can make a Dirty Bomb but they are useless in a military conflict, they are only useful for terror purposes and to contaminate the land.
    
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    November 18, 2024 2:52pm
  - JimBobJoe
    
    Ukraine saying they can launch dirty bombs at Russia is simply reminding the dictator Putin, he and his crew will pay a price if he makes his threat to use nukes real.
    
    Russia is the aggressor. The ‘NATO forced it’ narrative is a cover for Russian imperial aggression…
    
    I look forward to the Ukrainians hitting targets deep inside Russia in the same way Russia has attacked Ukrainian cities hundreds of miles the front.
    
    And while a armistice with territorial losses is the probable outcome – I hope the Russian losses are massive as they deserve all the suffering they have inflicted to be returned upon
    
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    November 18, 2024 3:58pm
- MCōs
  
  It’s not ‘the’ Ukraine. It’s a sovereign state.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:33am
  - BarryB
    
    Many sovereign states are called “The…”
    
    The United States. People dont travel to United States – they travel to THE united States.
    or
    The United Kingdom
    The Gambia
    The Bahamas
    The Central African Republic (only an idiot would travel to them…)
    The Untied Arab Emerites
    
    Sure people dont travel to The Ireland – they travel to Ireland
    or
    Scotland
    or France.
    
    etc,etc
    
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    November 18, 2024 4:12pm
  - Jack5
    
    It’s more complicated than that, Cossie.
    
    The English language “the” is a definite article, as opposed to “a” or “an,” which are indefinite articles.
    
    Russian and Ukrainian languages don’t have definite articles.
    
    Here’s an article that tries to link “the” in place names and says it’s unjustified before “Ukraine”. Its argument is frail because of the common use of “the” before “United States” and by the article’s argument it shouldn’t be used in this case.
    
    Boils down to usage, though people are making “Ukraine” in English language rather than “the Ukraine” a political choice.
    
    https://theconversation.com/its-ukraine-not-the-ukraine-heres-why-178748#:~:text=For%20most%20of%20the%2020th,%2C%E2%80%9D%20and%20for%20good%20reason.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:29pm
- Lance
  
  Do you REALLY think Putin will just take a big chunk of Ukraine and leave it at that (like he did with Crimea /sarc/) and not just rearm (and recover from the shit show the Russian economy has become) and just carry on. Then to invade more countries like the Baltic states or Moldova etc?
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:54am
  - Ghost
    
    What shit show?
    
    https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2024/09/26/why-russia-s-economy-is-holding-up-despite-sanctions-inflation-and-labor-shortages_6727299_19.html
    
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    November 18, 2024 10:17am
    - Lance
      
      Oh FFS
      Russia is running a war economy which is only a short term measure before you have to pay the piper. The govt is paying for war production (which is not a financial investment but an expense) as opposed to exporting earning income.
      Inflation is now rising rapidly, exports dropping while the Ruble falls in value.
      https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-economy-outlook-stagflation-recession-inflation-gdp-growth-ukraine-war-2024-11
      
      https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/currency
      
      Further Russia has nationalised most foreign installations, especially oil and gas with zero compensation. This will lead to a dramatic drop in production as the infrastructure fails with lack of expertise, equipment, replacements parts (embargoed) and lack of future investments.
      
      If Putin can destroy Ukraine before his economy is buggered, he wins. If not, Russia is in deep shit.
      
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      November 18, 2024 10:50am
      - Colville
        
        Why would the NATO countries ever let it go? they will just bleed Russia to death.
        
        Putin is 72 years old and ill. Russia will fall apart after he is gone.
        
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        November 18, 2024 11:32am
      - Eastlander
        
        I’ve been reading variations of this argument for more than a decade. Perhaps if you go on making it long enough it will come true.
        
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        November 18, 2024 12:04pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    Russia is nearing economic collapse. Their train system is failing (delays of months to move freight common), interest rates are nearing 30%, they have huge labor shortages, infrastructure is failing at an increasing rate and the oil and gas industry is struggling to maintain output.
    
    Majority of population are struggling to survive economically. Place is becoming a powder keg of discontent, and brain drain to west will only accelerate once Russians are free to move again.
    
    Their losses in Ukraine are catastrophic. Up to 50k a month dead and wounded now as they throw everything in to last ditch effort to take land before what appears to be an anticipated end of conflict in early 2025.
    
    Even if Russia ‘wins’ and conflict freezes on front line to give them Donbass, Zaphoresia, Crimea and east bank of Dnipro in Kherson, they are going to lose the following peace, with Ukraine attached permanently to Europe. Russia is mid-long term fucked, militarily, demographically and infrastructurally spent – this war is death knell for their ’empire’.
    
    And I am sure Xi has designs on Russia’s far east.
    
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    November 18, 2024 3:44pm
- rouppe
  
  I sometimes think that the areas of Eastern Ukraine fought over are now such a destroyed wasteland that Russia can have it.
  
  There are few options left.
  1. Ukraine pushes Russia out on its own. Not going to happen, they just don’t have the resources. Although Russia bringing in NK troops suggests they’re also scraping the bottom of the barrel.
  2. Europe combines and pushes Russia out. Don’t see any appetite for that.
  3. Russia overwhelms Ukraine. Would have done it by now if they could, don’t think that’s likely.
  4. Negotiated settlement. Most likely. Whoever ends up with the east is going to have an enormous reconstruction job.
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:03am
  - Taieri
    
    Although Russia bringing in NK troops suggests they’re also scraping the bottom of the barrel.
    ———-
    
    Cannon fodder. No Russian wife or mother is going to worry about NK lives.
    
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    November 18, 2024 10:52am
    - imalwaysright
      
      NK, like China, haven’t had a conflict of any consequence in recent years.
      Maybe NK want their soldiers to get some practical experience.
      It’s okay to train for war, but practical experience is surely at a different level.
      There is also the danger of a disused army being trained by staff who haven’t seen conflict.
      Sounds dangerous.
      
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      November 18, 2024 11:24am
      - thirteenstars
        
        NK is a slave state and its regime will be renting its slave soldiers to Russia for payment either in foreign funds or essential resources.
        
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        November 18, 2024 1:08pm
      - NothingLeft
        
        North Korea is selling slaves for Russia’s meat assaults at ~$20k + a few tonnes of rice apiece. NK is also getting 40 year old military tech to improve upon it’s 70 year old baseline.
        
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        November 18, 2024 3:47pm
    - Eastlander
      
      They’re probably not there and if they are then that is a sign of strength as it frees up their own forces for other operations. The Ukrainian government has been trying to get foreign troops for garrison duty to free up men for the front without success – if the Russians actually have managed it then once again the ‘isolated’ country will have been better served by its allies than Ukraine has been.
      
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      November 18, 2024 12:10pm
  - Lance
    
    Fair comment.
    I would add, Europe how has a clear understanding Russia under Putin poses an existential threat to them. Once a distant issue from the past only mentioned by (percieved) alramists, not any more, it is real.
    Sweden and Finland certainly have come to this realisation.
    
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    November 18, 2024 11:16am
    - Grunter
      
      What rubbish!
      
      Explain how Russia is an existential threat to Europe? How can Russia possibly conquer Europe? They don’t have the military power to do that. They know that the USSR was a disastrous mistake, they overextended and could never spread the Russian culture across Eastern Europe (let alone the whole of Europe)
      
      They can however enter a nuclear conflict and generate ‘mutual destruction’ of most of the planet – but that is not winning or conquering Europe.
      
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      November 18, 2024 4:25pm
  - BananaLlama
    
    Alot of wishful thinking about North Korean troops. They aren’t there to take part in combat operations they are there to stop Ukraine from launching attacks inside Russia because it will risk killing soldiers from a third party.
    
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    November 18, 2024 11:23am
    - rouppe
      
      Sort of. Seems like they’re going to be used to regain the ground taken by Ukraine in the Kursk region.
      
      So not in Ukraine, correct, but in battle with Ukrainian soldiers.
      
      https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/10/us/politics/russia-north-korea-troops-ukraine.html
      
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      November 18, 2024 1:19pm
  - Eastlander
    
    Number 3 is inevitable without number 4, however long it might take. The last couple of days saw rapid advances on the invaders’ part and another missile barrage against the power grid, including the substations in Transcarpathia needed for receiving energy supply from Europe. As for reconstructing the east, Mariupol has been rebuilt already. Many of the smaller settlements won’t be rebuilt since they were moribund and diminishing even before the war. In future many settlements may be lost with minimal fighting or damage, as Melitopol was in the first days of the war. Since the decisive help hoped for isn’t coming the only thing is to make peace before the situation gets any worse.
    
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    November 18, 2024 12:31pm
  - Allan
    
    Russia doesn’t want to keep what it has. That would be a strategic failure and likely to cause social collapse in Russia.
    
    The purpose of the invasion was to seize all of Ukraine and install a puppet regime as in Belorussia. From there it would pause to reconstitute and find that Russians in Moldova and Romania need rescue.
    
    The West would look on and wring their hands but be happy with peace in our time.
    
    Poland is busy rearming because they know they are going to be the target of the push west. And the Poles have a lot of history of being invaded by Russia and the mass slaughter that ensues.
    
    By this time the west is so decayed the Baltic states can be taken without NATO resistance.
    
    This is all something I have written previously. The strategic goal of Russia is to change its western boarder from thousands of kilometers of open steppe to 322k. Where Poland meets Germany. South of that is easily defensible mountain ranges.
    
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    November 18, 2024 12:48pm
- Burtland
  
  Biden just upped the ante …
  
  https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/17/europe/analysis-biden-atacms-ukraine-intl-latam/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:36am
  - Grunter
    
    Clearly, Biden wants to risk WW3 before he leaves office. We are now about to see if the dirty Ruskies are bluffing or not.
    
    I wonder what Trump is now thinking? Watching the senil lame duck President do exactly the opposite to Trump’s plan.
    
    If Putin now does nothing then there is a very real chance that he will be overthrown by the Russian hardliners. Then it will be ‘game over’ as this mess spirals out of control. If you think ‘Putin is the problem’ – think again, there is way worse sitting in the corridors of the Kremlin.
    
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    November 18, 2024 12:02pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    Limited to Russian staging areas in Kursk near where Ukraine has done their incursion. So not particularly impactful. And they’ve given Ukraine fuck all missiles to use in this way in recent times anyway.
    
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    November 18, 2024 3:49pm
    - Burtland
      
      so Ukraine can fire missiles into the Russian territory they currently occupy ?
      
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      November 19, 2024 7:44am
- Taieri
  
  and in fact have been active in Ukraine airspace
  ——–
  
  Polish military aircraft have NOT been active in the UKRAINIAN airspace.
  
  “Polish and allied aircraft have been scrambled in Polish airspace in response to a large-scale Russian attack involving cruise and ballistic missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles and targeting sites in western Ukraine.”
  
  https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/11/17/7484905/
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:49am
- Jake Dee
  
  An important bone of contention between the Poles and Ukrainians is some other unfinished business from WWII.
  It’s a complex story to be sure but involves the fascist Ukrainian forces their massacre of Poles and the current Kiev governments attitude towards it
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
  This isn’t getting any coverage in the Western press because its very important not to admit that there are any fascists in the Kiev government, or even if there are its just not important.
  The Russians think there are fascists in Kiev and it is important, therefore there aren’t any fascists in Kiev and it isn’t important.
  
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  November 18, 2024 3:08pm
nathie

Too many people are fixated on the pros and cons of the Treaty Principles Bill and by extension the perspectives of Seymour v Luxon etc.

But if one listens to Hikoi protesters (particularly the activists) they are talking about “sovereignty”, i.e. that Maori didn’t cede it.

(Hence why Seymour & the Coalition are the bad guys etc. Which of course our left-leaning MSM lap up).

And this is the same view (“that sovereignty wasn’t ceded”) that is now prevalent in education, the legal profession, even the Labour Party etc.

Think He Puapua – the blue print is there. 2040 is the destination.

So if Seymour’s bill fails, he needs to address this issue of “sovereignty”. It is the number one driver of this divisive path the far-left and the PMC Left (and now our institutions) will continue to travel.

We know National and NZF do not support this revisional “didn’t cede sovereignty” stance so ACT will be in good company.

That then puts pressure on the Labour Party, to actually make it clear where they stand on this issue.

And it will divide Labour to an extent, but of course it shouldn’t if they were to be honest.

Among the many reasons why Labour lost the 2023 election was that of He Puapua. Hipkins admitted they didn’t explain themselves and failed to take the public along with them. Even Willie Jackson could see this being a problem.

We need to all focus on this issue (“sovereignty”) not these other sides shows.

https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/360486421/im-proud-you-all-thousands-greet-hikoi-it-travels-down-aotearoahttps://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/360486421/im-proud-you-all-thousands-greet-hikoi-it-travels-down-aotearoa
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November 18, 2024 8:28am
- Grunter
  
  “We know National and NZF do not support this revisional “didn’t cede sovereignty” stance so ACT will be in good company.”
  
  Luxon….”there’s nothing I like about this Bill”
  
  So Nah – ACT are the ONLY remaining political party that support having a clear law stating that the Govt have sovereignty. Luxon sees this “evolving over time”. Hipkins agrees with The Maori Apartheid Party – sovereignty was not ceeded in 1840
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:11am
  - nathie
    
    That’s not correct.
    
    Northern iwi Ngāti Hine and Ngāti Manu have penned an open letter to the prime minister demanding he acknowledge Māori did not cede sovereignty to the Crown.
    
    Christopher Luxon told Parliament last week during Question Time the Crown was “sovereign” and Māori ceded sovereignty when signing the Treaty of Waitangi.
    
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/526393/iwi-write-to-pm-demanding-recognition-maori-did-not-cede-sovereignty
    
    I hope you are not fermenting division on the right?!
    
    Because ACT, National and NZF are lockstep on this issue.
    
    So let’s now put the pressure on Labour to explain their stance.
    
    For the sake of unity of this country.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:42am
    - RoboRob
      
      You are right. National & Luxon say Maori did cede sovereignty. However Luxon is also adamant that Maori are in a partnership with the crown. The two are mutually exclusive by definition so which is Luxon lying about?
      
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      November 18, 2024 10:04am
      - pdm
        
        Lying RR or is he so naive that he does not understand the difference.
        
        If it is the latter his main advisers are not too flash either.
        
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        November 18, 2024 12:48pm
      - RoboRob
        
        @pdm
        
        Luxon might be a wuss but he isn’t stupid. He knows the meaning of the words partnership and sovereignty.
        
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        November 18, 2024 2:27pm
    - Grunter
      
      Unity?
      
      The centre-right has moved so far left on this issue ACT are now alone on the right.
      
      NZF were never a solid partner of the right-wing parties (never forget 2017 and Winston 1st call to pick Ardern).
      
      Luxon has more in common with Hipkins on the Treaty issue than he does with Seymour.
      
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      November 18, 2024 4:33pm
- Colville
  
  There will be no progress until there is an honest discussion regarding the historical context of the Treaty, who sought it, who gained and why?
  
  In 1840, what was her that the Queen wanted?
  SFA I would think.
  Why would She want to station troops here and have them die on foreign land??
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:17am
  - pdm
    
    Colville – or even die getting here.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:34am
  - MCōs
    
    Exploitation. Just like everywhere else
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:38am
    - Taieri
      
      Exploitation
      ———
      
      Of what?
      
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      November 18, 2024 10:53am
      - Colville
        
        They were just getting in early so John Key could sell it to his mates.
        
        Cunning bastards. !!
        
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        November 18, 2024 11:44am
  - David Garrett
    
    Colville: In 1840, what was here that the Queen wanted?
    
    You are quite correct: there was nothing here that the Queen wanted, and the evidence clearly shows that the Brits were very reluctant to make NZ a colony.
    
    I firmly believe that in 1840 the Brits acted – reluctantly – with the very best of intentions, and further that Maori gained far more than they lost from the supposedly dreadful colonization.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:51am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Any peoples of the world at the time would have signed that treaty. It was a great deal for the inhabitants, especially the ability to convert many thousands of acres of disused land into cash.
      There are still many who would sign it.
      
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      November 18, 2024 11:29am
      - cmm
        
        Yup, correct especially about the land.
        
        We look at land as being valuable now, but we should look at it in terms of its value back then.
        
        Maori didn’t have stock animals for grazing, so all land was useful for was growing your kumara etc. There was no export trade so it made no sense to grow more kumara than you needed for your own self (and maybe a small amount for trade with someone who specialised in fishing or such).
        Besides, there was no machinery or draught animals so people could only farm a very limited area.
        
        It would be very hard for anyone to farm more than half an acre of land.
        
        If there were 100k Maori (I am sure there were far less), then all they could use were 50,000 acres of land (20,000 hectares) or 200 square km).
        
        Adding more land for houses etc, that means the entire Maori population could fit in 400 square km or so – 20x20km. About the area from Bombay Hills to central Auckland.
        
        The rest of the land was basically useless wastelands, especially once the moa had been eliminated. It certainly wasn’t rich agricultural land like much of it is today.
        
        They must have been ecstatic when a bunch of customers turned up and offered to buy the useless land as well as plugging them into the British Empire etc.
        
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        November 18, 2024 12:24pm
    - Colville
      
      Yip , people think of the Treaty through the lense of what New Zealand has today rather than the back water shithole it was in 1840.
      Whale oil, fur seals and a bit of timber and that was it.
      No farming as the natives were too unruly and there was only wool in 1840, meat exports didnt exist because the refrigeration wasnt invented for another 30 years.
      Why would Queen Vic fight for a country full of grumpy savages that was worthless?
      
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      November 18, 2024 11:42am
      - Paulus
        
        And watching the Hikoi they appear to be a pantomime pretending to be savages still !
        Or are they ?
        
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        November 18, 2024 12:00pm
      - Quail
        
        100% right Colville and CMM
        An example
        The Wairau plain was exchanged / sold for Blenkinsops Cannon.
        Largely a swamp , it had been fought over, and abandoned by a very small number of tribes.
        It has only become valuable today because of the prodigious efforts of imported land managers ,their associated technology , imported animals etc that has made this area what it is today.
        The sale was made on the values of the day. A cannon vs non productive unwanted swamp.
        That is reality.
        
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        November 18, 2024 8:27pm
    - Jake Dee
      
      I really don’t know where you are getting the idea that the British were reluctant to colonize New Zealand from.
      there was a mania for all manner of colonial enterprises in 19th century Britain. here is a potted history of The New Zealand Company
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Company
      You will note, founded in 1825, with support of aristocrats, members of parliament and rich business men.
      So who were “The British” ? it was never one person and the whole Empire never ran just from the mind of Queen Victoria.
      
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      November 18, 2024 3:23pm
    - thirteenstars
      
      Further, NZ was part of New South Wales, which also encompassed many of the Pacific islands. It was ostensibly under the authority of the Governor in Sydney.
      
      It was common for European nations to claim quite large areas despite not being able to exploit let alone administer them. The Dutch claimed most of Australia under such a guise, which is why it was called New Holland for a couple of centuries with the Brits only claiming the eastern zone after Cook mapped it.
      
      I suspect most Kiwis think that NZ was British from 1769 after Cook. Not at all. It was wide open with French, Americans and Russians all operating here. Given a slightly different set of circumstances NZ would most certainly have become a state of Australia.
      
      The British compact with the Maori was simply an exercise in rationalising a confused situation. It’s quite possible that NZ would have become a French possession in the 1830s had France done better during the Napoleonic Wars.
      
      History is often a close-run thing.
      
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      November 18, 2024 5:46pm
  - kowtow
    
    The context of the times are vital to understanding the treaty .
    
    That is often , I believe , deliberately ignored by the treatyists , who seem to want us all to believe that that document is the beginning and end of all matters .
    
    The British govt had no real pressing interest in these islands from a colonial position at all .
    
    They were happy to have a Resident here and ( correct me if I’m wrong) for other matters to be dealt with from Sydney.
    
    The simple fact is the London govt’s hand was forced by the NZ Company’s plans to buy the place up and once they discovered that William Wakefield had left London on the Tory they had to move into gear to forestall the Company buying the place up and they despatched Capt Hobson with instructions to get the Maoris to sign the treaty and give the Crown exclusive land rights ;
    
    therein Article 2 .
    
    That’s what the treaty is all about.
    
    But legally they needed lawful authority over the lands and subjects , thus Article 1 , surrender of sovereignty to the Crown .
    
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    November 18, 2024 11:55am
- kiwikidsnz
  
  Evidence that Northern Maori knew they were ceding sovereignty to the Crown when they signed the Treaty of Waitangi – fact checking the Waitangi Tribunal 2014 findings and the 2023 findings released on the 8th of December 2023.
  
  https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2023/12/lawrie-knight-fact-checking-waitangi.html?m=1
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:21am
  - nathie
    
    Brilliant, we need to amplify these views. But more importantly, politicians that have access to the media need to.
    
    Sure, we’ve see it all before (i.e. said and discussed by various people and authors and historians) but for some reason the activists and the institutions “talk over” this.
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:39am
- Ehlana
  
  I understand the claim that Maori did not cede sovereignty. But does it follow that they cannot have lost it?
  If a tribe/nation invades and conquers the territory of another, do they not become sovereign in that territory? Does it depend on whether or not they totally wipe out the conquered people?
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:37am
  - Don Beckett
    
    The British in supporting settlers did not ‘conquer’ New Zealand. The Maori tribes were not a united nation. The whole purpose of the Treaty was to prevent the necessity of ‘conquering’ NZ, and to prevent any further inter-tribal warfare – which, as the wise old chiefs who signed the treaty said, “our young men are all killing each other & we want /need it to stop”.
    
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    November 18, 2024 11:05am
    - Bridgenag
      
      Well said
      
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      November 18, 2024 11:14am
    - Paulus
      
      How many Maori were ther at the time of the signing of the Treaty in comparison as to how many Non Maori were here at the time.
      The Maori were overwhelmingly the greater number at the time.
      
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      November 18, 2024 12:02pm
      - rouppe
        
        So what?
        
        The technology that the British brought was far superior to what Maori had, and they knew it. They knew from how many Maori were killed by other Maori in the musket wars, muskets that were brought by the colonists.
        
        They could see how many people the British ships could bring in one go compared to two canoes lashed together, and there weren’t any more canoes coming.
        
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        November 18, 2024 1:39pm
- Yvette
  
  Nathie – So if Seymour’s bill fails, he needs to address this issue of “sovereignty”.
  
  If ACT’s bill fails, “sovereignty” and claims to it, should necessitate then that Government be confirmed as having the right to govern, Article 1 of course of the present ACT bill – hopefully also of an ACT bill to follow, be reintroduced urgently.
  
  … Among the many reasons why Labour lost the 2023 election was that of He Puapua. Hipkins admitted they didn’t explain themselves and failed to take the public along with them. Even Willie Jackson could see this being a problem.
  
  Not withstanding what Jackson’s hidden He Paupau hui responses may say, such considerations are beyond the Sharples 2010 constraint –
  
  In moving to support the Declaration [UNDRIP], New Zealand both affirms those rights and reaffirms the legal and constitutional frameworks that underpin New Zealand’s legal system. Those existing frameworks [defined in other statements as being the Treaty of Waitangi], while they will continue to evolve in accordance with New Zealand’s domestic circumstances, define the bounds of New Zealand’s engagement with the aspirational elements of the Declaration.
  https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/49HansD_20100420_00000071/ministerial-statements-un-declaration-on-the-rights-of
  
  20 APRIL 2010
  National Govt to support UN rights declaration
  Prime Minister John Key announced today the New Zealand Government has given its support to the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
  
  … • acknowledges that Māori hold a special status as tangata whenua, the indigenous people of New Zealand and have an interest in all policy and legislative matters;
  
  • affirms New Zealand’s commitment to the common objectives of the Declaration and the Treaty of Waitangi; and
  
  • reaffirms the legal and constitutional frameworks that underpin New Zealand’s legal system, noting that those existing frameworks define the bounds of New Zealand’s engagement with the Declaration.
  https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/national-govt-support-un-rights-declaration.
  
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  November 18, 2024 11:13am
  - Eastlander
    
    The problem is that as long as New Zealand adheres to the damned thing the door is open for judges to give interpretations to existing enactments that give effect to the UNDRIP to the extent that doing is not (in the judge’s opinion !) inconsistent with the substance of those enactments.
    
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    November 18, 2024 12:39pm
I remember when

“If demonstrations against the bill lead to political violence, civic disorder, or both, then Seymour will come under severe attack from his establishment critics.” Bryce Edwards.

An open invitation to those opposing the Bill?
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November 18, 2024 8:41am
- Benedict Yu
  
  I wonder whether David Seymour currently has a security detail?
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:33am
  - MCōs
    
    Of course he would
    One can imagine the amount of threatening vitriol that comes his way. Look what happened to the far less controversial James Shaw
    Anyone who sticks their head above the ramparts attracts withering online fire we don’t normally hear about, particularly women and particularly Māori women
    
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    November 18, 2024 9:52am
  - cmm
    
    The other part to this is asking whether the security detail would do anything. Are they scared of being called racist?
    
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    November 18, 2024 10:20am
- kowtow
  
  Why are these “thought leaders” blaming Seymour .
  
  They should be saying ‘political violence, civic disorder’ have no place in NZ , it’s not how we do things in a liberal democracy .
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:55am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Why are these “thought leaders” blaming Seymour .
    
    Indeed.
    
    He’s not the one using violent language or making threatening gestures or employing violent imagery.
    
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    November 18, 2024 10:44am
  - gravedodger
    
    Agreed Kowtow however the antics that led to the suspension of Parliament last Thursday have reduced that notion severely.
    
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    November 18, 2024 11:36am
  - Terry Dalee
    
    Is NZ a liberal democracy?
    I’m starting to doubt it .
    
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    November 19, 2024 12:32am
- Yvette
  
  It is a tragedy of identity politics that the person not the words come under fire.
  Will any intelligence prevail to debate issues rather than those who raise them?
  Is it because ‘political violence, civic disorder’ requires a human target?
  
  And does Police intelligence acknowledge any precedent where allowing large congregations to occur without a structured outlet, or dissipation course, asks for a result to which utter surprise will be expressed when everything turns to custard and descends into stone throwing and other violence?
  – and requiring an ACT plan B when it does?
  
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  November 18, 2024 11:25am
- Paulus
  
  I would fully expect that there will be violence in Wellington tomorrow, as a number of both Gangs, and the usual hanger on anti Government (any) Anarchists trouble makers will be back.
  
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  November 18, 2024 12:05pm
  - pdm
    
    Paulus I will bet you $1 to a knob of goat shit that John Minto is there, front and center, tomorrow,
    
    Hypocrite that he is.
    
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    November 18, 2024 12:53pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      A very enthusiastic champion of far-left fashionable causes it would appear. I do wonder how someone his age manages to avoid thinking deeply about the bigger picture on the various issues he supports.
      
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      November 18, 2024 7:15pm
- Eastlander
  
  And what will we say of his establishment critics for taking the side of those who claim a right of violent ethnic veto over Parliament?
  
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  November 18, 2024 12:40pm
Bridgenag

Sunday Strip: The Free Market of Ideas
Is out of their control

https://open.substack.com/pub/rwmalonemd/p/sunday-strip-the-free-market-of-ideas?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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November 18, 2024 8:45am
G152

How is the bus trip with walk throughs going????
And how are they all going to get back to their homes ???????
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November 18, 2024 8:50am
- Paulus
  
  On the Trains, if they are running ?
  Yea ! but who will pay the fares ?
  
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  November 18, 2024 2:50pm
I remember when

Although there hasn’t been much talk as to why, there seems to be an increased interest in rugby among the general public.
Suddenly there is an influx of exciting new players.
Why is it happening and is there, as they like to say, any ‘learnings.’
Does it highlight the failure to introduce a ‘new broom’ when Hansen retired?
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November 18, 2024 8:59am
- pdm
  
  The Razor influence.
  
  He is now getting the forward selections right.
  
  A bit of work to do with the backs – especially 10, 12 and 13.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:53am
  - David Garrett
    
    Pdm: Seriously…do people get down to the level of arguing who should wear what number jersey? In a game which is basically organized thuggery where it doesnt seem to matter who is playing where?
    
    Or am i missing something about the national religion?
    
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    November 18, 2024 5:34pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      If you thought the NZ obsession over “thugby” was bad, wait until you encounter rabid AFL supporters in Australia.
      
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      November 18, 2024 7:18pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Taxpayer funded programmes taking a very activist stance….

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2411/S00120/rnz-host-needs-to-at-least-give-pretence-of-impartiality.htm
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November 18, 2024 9:01am
- nathie
  
  Presumably Forbes does this because she believes she is on the “right side of history” (i.e. Maori “didn’t cede sovereignty”) therefore being impartial isn’t necessary.
  
  If anything presumably she thinks she is “impartial” (and the likes of ACT are on the “wrong side of history).
  
  The politicians need to view these issues through this lens.
  
  And the likes of Labour need to be held to account to explain their position, clearly and concisely.
  
  And it will be painful for Labour, so they will do their best to avoid it.
  
  But once Labour has these “difficult” conversations in public, the nation will be better for it.
  
  Either Labour support the Maori activist viewpoint that Maori (tribes in reality – not common Maori people) should have greater control.
  
  Or they don’t.
  
  And if the latter, naive elements of the MSM can be unburdened to think and report on this issue with a degree of balance by considering what sort of future this country should have for the betterment of its multi-cultural society, all citizens at all levels, the rule of law and privilege/class etc.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:33am
  - Paulus
    
    Thought Joanna Forbes, as she was born, and first came to the media as such, then changed her name, was only a very part Maori on her Father’s side.
    
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    November 18, 2024 12:09pm
    - David Garrett
      
      Paulus: Doesnt matter mate…she FEELZ Maori therfore she is one…do keep up
      
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      November 18, 2024 5:38pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Yes it’s the “vibe” that matters with these people. Delving into their reasoning (or the lack thereof) will result in a stream of insults/shaming/screaming coming your way.
        
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        November 18, 2024 7:20pm
- RoboRob
  
  Is this the perfect ‘excuse’ for the minister of braodcasting to ‘step in’ at RNZ. If RNZ are in breach of their integrity and conduct standards the board, at least, needs to act.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:35am
Matt Long

Jenny Shipley announces she can lose National more support than Wayne Mapp ever dreamed of.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/533944/treaty-principles-bill-inviting-civil-war-jenny-shipley-says
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November 18, 2024 9:02am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  When I have my leftie mates telling me I must listen to Jenny Shipley, I wonder if they have lost a few too many brain cells.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:14am
  - Tricati
    
    Clearly they didn’t have money invested in Mainzeal.
    
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    November 18, 2024 10:49am
- BananaLlama
  
  That is a really outrageous statement from her because the next thought that comes to mind is should we prepare ourselves for civil war.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:34am
- RoboRob
  
  Shipley, Mapp and Luxon, proof positive that National are just Labour with better management. I have heard this many times and always disregarded it, but Luxon really has me thinking its true.
  
  Oh and G from Dunedin (and others) National and NZF know full well that their strategy of going through every piece of legislation and surgically removing treaty references they dont agree with is…
  
  1. Never going to be finished.
  They will never check and edit every piece of legislation and national and local body levels. I’m not even sure if they have updated even one piece of legislation yet.
  
  2. Not going to stop future governments adding stuff back in
  Yes you can never stop a future government changing legislation but Seymours bill is much more likely to provide a long term change in direction.
  
  3.Not going to end legal issues in and around the RMA
  
  They know all this, we know all this, so why are we ok with them doing this?
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:46am
  - artemisia
    
    About removing treaty references in legislation, is it not likely that amendments will delete those references unless there is reason to keep them?
    
    A Bill I am interested in amends the relevant Act, Not a small Act either. The Bill does not delete treaty references from the Act because there are none.
    
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    November 18, 2024 12:45pm
    - RoboRob
      
      Governments dont amend legislation that regularly. Are you thinking that National is going to amend every single piece of legislation that has a treaty principals statement between now and 2029 (assuming a two term govt)?
      
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      November 18, 2024 2:30pm
      - David Garrett
        
        Principles mate…PRINCIPALS run schools, or are the front person in a law firm
        
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        November 18, 2024 5:39pm
BeaB

Does Debs actually know how to do a haka?
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November 18, 2024 9:03am
- Flossie
  
  I wonder does she know how to do an Irish jig? Or just like so many Maori activists does she ignore the other half of her ancestry.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:19am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Must have some Hawaiian blood…..
    
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    November 18, 2024 10:18am
    - Flossie
      
      Seriously I’m giving the benefit of the doubt that one half of her is actually full Maori. I’d bet her father is somewhat of mixed race himself.
      
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      November 18, 2024 10:38am
Matt Long

America humiliated at Apec with President Biden relegated to the back row with people like Luxon, while Xi basks in the glory, front and centre.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-awkwardly-stands-apec-photo-chinas-xi-jinping-front-center
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November 18, 2024 9:04am
- MCōs
  
  Joe Biden is of little interest to the APEC crowd anymore, whereas Xi is the dominant figure now and will be in the future as America under Trump erects trade barriers
  Australia is in a an awkward spot now with Aukus, which obviously China doesn’t like
  
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  November 18, 2024 12:36pm
  - All_on_Red
    
    The EU has passed Tariffs on China just recently.
    They are, rightly, worried about Product dumping
    And China as an economic power is in trouble
    Then there is the depopulation crisis which is accelerating
    
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    November 18, 2024 3:41pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Another “kindness” idea ends up creating mayhem.

I met with a bus driver seriously assaulted by fare dodgers and relayed his concerns to AT. Since then, I have been told by a bus contractor that AT has been repeatedly warned that its lax policy on fare dodging is leading to violence.

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2411/S00118/fare-dodging-leads-to-violence.htm
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November 18, 2024 9:06am
- peterwn
  
  Unfortunately their union in a way asked for it by telling drivers not to collect fares several years ago as a form of industrial action. The drivers also deactivated the HOP readers so passengers wanting to pay could not. So some people just got in the habit of not paying fares.
  Perhaps bus drivers should not be expected to enforce payment but have a discreet means sending a signal when someone does not tap on so a roving inspector if available can intercept the bus.
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:28am
  - artemisia
    
    I saw bus and train inspectors in Melbourne checking tickets. If no ticket, it was definitely not a polite quiet chat. Some pax clapped when the person slunk off the bus.
    
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    November 18, 2024 12:49pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Yes I’ve seen ferals wrestled to the ground by 6 ticket inspectors. That is a very dangerous job. The many Melbourne left wing loons (who think demanding fares be paid is “fascist” or something) and the ferals generally hate the ticket inspectors.
      
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      November 18, 2024 7:26pm
bennerg

Further to previous posts on the matter, I was delighted to see the reporting on TV One News 6pm Sunday that there are now calls from professionals to negotiate with Tom Phillips, re the return of him and his family to normal life. A position I took some weeks ago to a mixture of acclaim and vitriol.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/11/17/missing-marokopa-children-calls-to-negotiate-with-tom-phillips/

What was critical in this reporting was the admission of the part played by the Family Court in the whole affair, and anyone with any dealings with this entity knows of the strong bias that institution has against fathers. It also through implication confirmed that the mother had not had involvement with the kids for a period, [Mod – unsubstantiated rumour deleted]

What was heartening, was to see some genuinely positive thinking in how to deal with the situation. More than one “expert” was advocating that should they negotiate a return, to make sure the kid’s interests are top priority. And that it was imperative that they are not separated from their father. Yay! Common sense prevails.

Given recent reports on this blog of decisions made by our Courts, then if any allegations are found to be true, then I would say a sentence of Community Service for 6 months would be appropriate, and given his experience, working with kids developing self sufficiency skills may well be appropriate and a win – win.

Next, the Government needs to establish an independent Commission to review the parts played by the The Family Court, Social Services, the Police, and others in handling of this case. “If you ignore the canary, you risk blowing up the mine”.
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November 18, 2024 9:59am
- MCōs
  
  There’s the small matter of armed bank robbery charges, or similar, that can’t just be brushed under the carpet
  Is this bloke to be shown leniency for that and what is effectively kidnapping on this forum, which normally insists the book is chucked at such offenders?
  
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  November 18, 2024 12:44pm
  - bennerg
    
    This is where the framing of the narrative comes into play. The Police portrayed this as you decribe MCos, but failed and continue to do so by failing to provide the full background. Little bits creep in and you need to collect all these little tidbits to see the media have failed to give us the true picture. eg. the role of the Family Court in all this, and the circumstances that drove an ordinary sounding guy to protect his family by going bush.
    
    At the time he went bush Tom did have custody of his children, and as he had not been served any papers, a good lawyer could make hay of that one I’m sure.
    
    There has been little balanced background provided, so we are left joining the dots.
    
    As to my comment re punishment, we had published here recently yesterday about the guy who beat his neighbour who then died … and got home detention!!!
    
    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2024/11/11_months_home_detention_for_killing_an_old_man.html
    
    Tom is no kidnapper – that is ridiculous. He’s a father protecting his kids, and until the full background to his case, and the part the mother played, then you really have to apply the dictum of innocent until proven guilty!
    
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    November 18, 2024 1:22pm
- balanceplease
  
  Firstly, because of the limited information the public is allowed to have it is hard to judge if Tom Phillips is a caring father, or gone in the head. I suspect the former, he is a good father who has been driven to the point where he felt he had to take unilateral action to protect his children. The system is stacked against fathers, everyone knows that but very few will say it. His family and his community can see it though, that is why they are supporting him. They wouldn’t dob him in, even when the Police were offered a substantial reward. Happily, justice and the welfare of the children is worth more than money to some people.
  Who is it who is saying that Tom Phillips is irresponsible? Those that make a living from this rotten system. It was nearly 20 years ago that a female family court lawyer called Penny Clothier unexpectantly broke ranks, left family court practice, and publicly declared the system is chronically biased against fathers. Her courageous message was lost, the system went back to its old ways. 25 years ago there was an attempt to get 50:50 shared care between mothers and fathers as the starting point in custody decisions. A bill actually got to parliament, but it was thrown out by Helen Clark and her cronies. Politicians want the feminist vote, so they deliver what feminists want. Rot the kids.
  Meanwhile, Tom Phillips hides in the bush to protect his children. Could Tom Phillips trust any deal he was offered by the system to come out of the bush? He would have to think very hard.
  
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  November 18, 2024 1:06pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/360490166/surprise-car-now-amongst-most-stolen-nz

“MoneyHub also collected data on vehicle thefts by region and by colour. Counties Manukau had the most recorded thefts over the six-month period (687), followed by Canterbury (564) and Waitematā (522). It noted that Northland had the greatest number of thefts per capita, at 15 per 10,000 people to Counties Manukau’s 13.”

No surprises then.
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November 18, 2024 10:03am
- Jethrod
  
  And what colour cars were the most frequently stolen?
  
  //
  
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  November 18, 2024 12:52pm
AitchW

Why is it that National ex PMs swing to the left? Bolger did it now Shipley seems to be going that way too.
Are they simply Chardonnay socialists or have they been infected with the DEI virus sweeping corporate NZ?
Or are they hoping to curry favour with the left to get onto a few working parties when Labour returns to power?
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November 18, 2024 10:06am
- bennerg
  
  “If You Lie Down With Dogs, You Get Up With Fleas”
  
  It comes down to the company they keep. As politicians they have become public property, and hence the focus of any group or individual wishing to lobby for their cause. Many forgot to wear a mental “prophylactic” when dealing with such people.
  
  What must be kept in mind is that they all served in the “House of Representatives”, and therefore should be remembered for their ability to serve the public, and not use the position to their advantage and reverse the flow by attempting to tell us what we should be, and that to think.
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:48am
- cmm
  
  As they slide slowly towards the end of their perches they want to “leave a legacy” and be thought of as kind, caring, compassionate people etc.
  
  These days you don’t have to just curry leftie favours with Labour. You need to do it with National too.
  
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  November 18, 2024 12:05pm
- MCōs
  
  She’s most certainly not a leftie!
  Jenny Shipley used to be MP for Ashburton and later Rakaia and you don’t get that seat if you’re not true blue
  In more recent times she did an interview with Guyon Espiner as part of a series with ex PMs in which her views had not changed
  For her to come out against Seymour’s bill shows just how much of an out of touch and intransigent ideologue he is
  
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  November 18, 2024 1:11pm
  - Paulus
    
    Am I wrong, but wasn’t Jenny Shipley a Teacher at some time in her life ?
    
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    November 18, 2024 2:54pm
    - David Garrett
      
      Paulus: Indeed…a school teacher and a talented swimmer apparently…as a poli and later a company director, not so successful…she did however deny Clark the title of New Zealand’s first female PM…which she should wear as a badge of honour
      
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      November 18, 2024 5:47pm
  - All_on_Red
    
    ‘True blue’
    Snigger
    Wayne Mapp used to be a National MP and look at him…
    
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    November 18, 2024 3:36pm
    - Jack5
      
      Mainzeal was Shipley’s “true blue”.
      
      https://www.minterellison.co.nz/insights/supreme-court-releases-decision-in-mainzeal
      
      This link’s to an article behind a paywall, but you can get the relevant gist from the first sentence:
      
      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/companies/banking-finance/mainzeal-claims-hit-159m-dame-jenny-shipley-settles-66m-payment/6KJ3J36BC5CUZBML5NPVYYVGLY/
      
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      November 18, 2024 9:09pm
  - julesnzuk
    
    Utter drivel, MCos. You could put a blue rosette on a monkey in those seats and the monkey would win – but it doesn’t make them “true blue”. The only people “out of touch” are Seymour’s detractors and people like Mrs Shipley – who simply sounds unhinged.
    
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    November 19, 2024 1:12am
- Master Mariner
  
  “Why is it that National ex PMs swing to the left? Bolger did it now Shipley seems to be going that way too.”
  Birds of a feather etc etc.
  That is where level of competence lies, ie expectations do not meet outcomes and find similar company with the looney left.
  Dunning/Kruger and all.
  
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  November 18, 2024 3:05pm
- Keith White
  
  “And”
  
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  November 18, 2024 8:30pm
rangitoto

Sabine Hossenfelder: Science is in trouble https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtxjatbVb7M
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November 18, 2024 10:07am
- bennerg
  
  Good discussion in the comments of that video.
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:32am
- Colinxy
  
  I suspect the root problem was Postmodernism and its anger towards objective truth – replaced by subjective truths and nothing but power.
  
  This has allowed a bureaucracy to overpower science and its independence – since there’s no “objective truth”, the bureaucrats have granted themselves more and more power – since it is the only “true truth”.
  
  Logic, a tool used to establish objective truth, has been thrown out. This is demonstrably cited by Hossenfelder’s clip, alongside DPF’s various Marsden Fund posts – a bit of logic would toss out quite of bit of stupid funding/research. What has Kauri trees got to do with sperm whales for example? But bureaucrats rubberstamped it because there’s nothing in the bureaucrats’ toolbox that can reject nonsense (nor do I believe they’d want to in their desire for power).
  
  This illogic was amplified by Critical Theory as a pathway to academic success – Critical Legal Studies for example. And this problem was made even worse when Critical Theory synthesised with Postmodernism.
  
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  November 18, 2024 12:12pm
- NothingLeft
  
  The problem is that accountants, polticians and various empty-headed activists rather than actual productive researchers have ended up in control of research objectives.
  
  Science and tech research needs to identify productive individuals, grant them money and get out of their way. Grass-roots peer review and adjust funding up or down based on results every few years.
  
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  November 18, 2024 3:59pm
Scooter

Poor little kid and we can pretty much guess the ethnicity but the media is keeping very quiet and it’s well down on the list of news items.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/whakatane-homicide-inquiry-boy-8-dies-in-hospital/MVLULTI7KNFHVJZAZBEMSVBBM4/
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November 18, 2024 10:18am
- imalwaysright
  
  Scooter
  
  These fuckers who (alegedly) murdered an 8 year old child would be national news in any other country.
  That’s because any other country cares about their kids.
  In NZ, whether a murder of an 8 year old makes the news depends on if there is a welfare hikoi full of lazy pricks who are doing the bidding of their brown masters, or not.
  
  The murderer/s will adopt the Sharples procedure and say nothing whilst they are applying for social welfare grants to pay for the piss up to see the innocent child into his premature grave.
  Their harshest punishment will be their hangovers.
  
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  November 18, 2024 1:12pm
cmm

“They had no shoes, no lunches, but I wanted to know why”

It really is very easy:
Stop blaming the government and the taxpayer.
Blame the useless deadbeat parents.
Maybe look in the mirror.

Scribbling on your face and yelling at white people is not going to fix anything. Start yelling at the useless parents.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360483715/hikoi-leader-eru-kapa-kingi-they-had-no-shoes-no-lunches-i-wanted-know-why
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November 18, 2024 10:48am
- Tricati
  
  My post of the day – well said
  
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  November 18, 2024 10:50am
- imalwaysright
  
  That’s how warriors roll.
  
  The Romans, Greeks, Celts, Assyrians… They could never go past a dole office without dropping in an application.
  
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  November 18, 2024 11:43am
- Flossie
  
  The bit about how he wants things sorted so kids don’t have to pay to go to university to learn their language like he apparently had to…
  How about the family teaches kids their language, like many many Asian families do. No taxpayer assistance for those families!
  
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  November 18, 2024 11:48am
  - cmm
    
    A couple of years back I had a conversation with a Maori guy in his 20s. His father is a Maori tutor but he says his Maori is very weak and he can’t be bothered to put in the effort to learn – mainly because it isn’t worth the time. He said he might try learning more when he’s older.
    
    That’s the biggest thing. It isn’t a lack of opportunity. It’s the lack of getting off your arse.
    
    Surprise, surprise: the same people who aren’t going to get off their arse to learn a language but demand that the state sorts it out for them tend to be the same people that don’t do a pile of other things and expect the state (aka taxpayer) to sort them out. Everything from housing to feeding their kids.
    
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    November 18, 2024 12:01pm
    - Taieri
      
      It’s the lack of getting off your arse.
      ——–
      
      Not necessarily. Despite of his father being Maori tutor the guy was brought up surrounded by the mainly English speaking culture. Mentally he is not really a “Maori”. Consequently he has no motivation to learn the language he has no use for.
      
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      November 18, 2024 12:08pm
      - cmm
        
        To be fair to this guy, he was not moaaning about the plight of the Maori language like so many are.
        
        He had all the opportunity to learn and wasn’t bothered to do so because he didn’t see the value.
        
        I wasn’t blaming this particular individual for not getting off his arse. He certainly has done so and is a successful physiotherapist. I doubt he’s expecting government hand outs.
        
        He was moaning about his cousins etc back North who complain about everything and live on the dole.
        
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        November 18, 2024 12:35pm
  - Paulus
    
    Why is it that in Pacifica families all the children speak their own language fluently.
    Then why is it that Maori do not ?
    They came via the Pacific Islands from Taiwan.
    
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    November 18, 2024 2:58pm
    - David Garrett
      
      Paulus: i can tell u the answer, although you probably know it already: PI families do what Sir Apirana Ngata decreed 100 years ago – Tongan/Samoan/Nuiean (Maori) in the home, English at school.
      Up here in the Kingdom I am surrounded by people who speak both Tongan and fluent English because of that same policy
      The Maori language was (almost) lost because Maori themselves couldn’t be arsed preserving it. Simple as that.
      
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      November 19, 2024 6:33am
- AitchW
  
  In the mid 70s I attended a rural primary school in Winston Peter’s home town in Northland. Maori kids outnumbered European by about 3 to 1.
  Many of the Maori kids never wore shoes, not because they had no shoes but rather because they chose not to wear them.
  I don’t remember any of them not having lunches, and I don’t remember of them being morbidly obese either.
  My first day there the senior class did what was then referred to as Maori action songs, today would be Kapa Haka I guess.
  Quite mystifying to an 11 year old from small town Scotland.
  
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  November 18, 2024 12:00pm
  - Blog-aholic
    
    When I was a youngster in the middle of the North Island I never went to school wearing shoes in summer and if I did they came off reasonably quickly……
    I remember once I played rugby in a small town south of National Park in winter (it snowed and rained) wearing bare feet (as we all did) and using a leather rugby ball…….
    
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    November 18, 2024 12:29pm
    - pdm
      
      Blog-a.
      
      When you graduated to rugby boots did you take them off at half time because you could run faster barefeet?
      
      Some of us did at Tikokino School – not the forwards though.
      
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      November 18, 2024 1:00pm
- sirknz
  
  That was my exact reaction when I saw the headline.
  
  If he were marching for this sort of thing, I suspect a few more people might be swayed to his side of the fence.
  
  Net taxpayers have given them more than enough money by now, nothing ever seems to improve for them. Throwing money at them doesn’t seem to be working very well thus far.
  
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  November 18, 2024 12:24pm
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZDIhpzGWgQ
The DPRK Betrays China.
Now, lil Rocketman has a new source of money. The Presitator isn’t best pleased.
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November 18, 2024 11:10am
sungsamning

https://rumble.com/v5pq3uq-maga-economy-will-be-better-than-2016.html
MAGA Economy Will Be Better Than 2016.
Well, less Russia, Russia, Russia. No tax on tips. Dow is up. Same for Nasdaq, and S&P.
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November 18, 2024 11:10am
- cmm
  
  No tax on tips is a great move and might even save taxpayers a lot of money.
  
  Most of the people getting tips probably pocket it anyway and don’t tell the taxman. Most of them are going to be low income workers at the lowest tax brackets (10-12%) so any lost revenue is low. Therefore they’re basically decriminalising what happens now and saving on enforcement.
  
  Best of all it is a great incentive to get off your arse and plug yourself into the economy.
  That 10-12% is going to find its way back into the economy and stimulate the economy.
  
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  November 18, 2024 12:41pm
  - Tauhei Notts
    
    No CMM, they are on a 31%, possibly 34%, sort of tax rate.
    17.5% income tax, 1.5% ACC, 12% student loan repayment and 3% Kiwisaver deduction.
    I say 12% student loan as I have heard that the phrase most used by B.A. graduates is;
    “Will you have fries with that.”
    
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    November 18, 2024 1:43pm
    - cmm
      
      I very much doubt anyone in USA is paying Kiwisaver.
      
      The “no tax on tips” will only apply to federal income tax. Some states also add on state taxes etc which might be paid.
      
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      November 18, 2024 2:03pm
Skippytony

Somebody who should know better wants central planning to take a role in farm produce distribution – jesus where do these people come from?

https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/11/12/the-case-for-feeding-our-5-million-first-before-first-tonne-is-exported/
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November 18, 2024 11:33am
- cmm
  
  It’s a ridiculous statement anyway.
  
  There is nobody in NZ that is starving due to lack of food.
  
  ““We have probably around about a million people, about 20 percent of our population, that are unable to access sufficient affordable, nutritious food on a regular basis, ”
  
  I call Bullshit.
  
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  November 18, 2024 2:58pm
  - Jake Dee
    
    Agreed.
    “Probably’ 1 million Kiwis unable to access sufficient food? Just show me 1 (who isn’t locked in a cupboard by a crazy relative).
    
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    November 18, 2024 3:42pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    People who are cruising in life quite often don’t believe that others are really in fact doing it tough.
    
    Ask the food banks and charity services what is happening.
    
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    November 18, 2024 7:31pm
cmm

HiAce vans are the second most stolen vehicles in NZ.

Huh, nobody has tried to steal mine. But then it is 28 years old with over 400,000 km on the clock and has the ultimate anti-theft device – a manual transmission.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/360490166/surprise-car-now-amongst-most-stolen-nz
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November 18, 2024 11:54am
- David Garrett
  
  cmm: Yes! I bought a Toyota Corolla when I was last in NZ with a manual transmission for that very reason – no young scrotes who might be tempted to steal it would be able to drive it. I must say it took me a while to remember to put the clutch in at intersections! Had to relearn how to do a hill start.
  
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  November 18, 2024 12:09pm
  - David Garrett
    
    [del]…dreadful sytax! Shame on me:
    
    “I bought a Toyota Corolla with a manual transmission when I was last in New Zealand”
    
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    November 18, 2024 12:19pm
    - sirknz
      
      Was going to ask what you were up to with a manual tranny…
      
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      November 18, 2024 12:30pm
    - Allan
      
      Mr Garrett, I was thinking about you last evening.
      
      With your sharp legal mind, is it likely that Trump can sue all those ‘news’ outlets that called him a convicted felon.
      
      Being that Trump is not a convicted felon.
      
      6 1
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      November 18, 2024 12:55pm
      - David Garrett
        
        Allan: Always a bit on edge when males tell me they have been thinking about me…especially at night!
        
        I haven’t a clue mate; the US is made up of 51 legal systems, each of them based – closely or loosely – on English common law, but I have no idea of the nuances of the law of defamation which apply in any of those systems.
        
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        November 18, 2024 1:21pm
      - fightingtemeraire
        
        Louisianna is based on the French Legal System!!!
        
        4 0
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        November 18, 2024 2:02pm
      - Allan
        
        The clue is that he could sue for calling him a ‘convicted’ felon.
        
        At what point in our legal system does the offender become convicted.
        
        Trump has been found guilty but is he convicted?
        
        4 1
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        November 18, 2024 5:52pm
- MCōs
  
  HiAce utes
  Big difference
  
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  November 18, 2024 5:01pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    HiLux?
    
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    November 18, 2024 5:05pm
Yvette

Sir Ian Taylor: Why I think it’s time for a debate about the Treaty
Sir Ian Taylor writes
… one might reasonably argue that the referendum Seymour is seeking has already been held and that the Māori language version of Te Tiriti, signed by 500 Māori chiefs, including 13 wahine rangatira, would take precedence over the English language version signed by just 39.
And, with such a majority, does it really make sense that Māori would have willingly surrendered their sovereignty? Wouldn’t the more logical explanation be that Māori were giving Queen Victoria sovereignty over the European settlers, while the indigenous people of the land retained their tino rangatiratanga.
These are the sort of questions that could have been asked of Seymour at Question Time.

… Under this principle [Doctrine of Original Intent] there is a powerful argument that this would involve interpreting the Māori text of the Treaty as it was understood by the Māori signatories, who made up the majority of those who signed.
Obviously that is not a path that Seymour would like be taken down, which might go some way to explaining his argument that judges, courts and academics have had far too much influence on the way the Treaty has been interpreted to date.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360489590/sir-ian-taylor-why-i-think-its-time-debate-about-treaty

The “judicial path” should ask how did the pivotal word “akin” (to a partnership) becomes “is a partnership”? – from 1970s messing with the Treaty

It is a process that more recently is exemplified by –

“One of our critical advisers through this, who’s from the science community, mentioned to me the other day that on their calculation, give or take, possibly 5000 people have been saved by what we had done.

“So in those moments I think of that. Now those 5000 people, they don’t know who they are. They don’t know that it was them that has been potentially protected by these measures. But I just keep that in my mind. It’s been hard, but the flipside would have been even more painful.”
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-response-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-interview-on-what-government-got-right-and-wrong/PKKLCAAF6DCTUCH3AIRIP4W6TU/

Into the Valley of Death rode the 5,000
– really?
“Akin” = “is”?
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November 18, 2024 12:28pm
- Blog-aholic
  
  Indeed akin is only similar in nature or character so when something is akin it is NOT the same.
  
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  November 18, 2024 12:47pm
- Colville
  
  Sir Ian should ask…why would a nation with a standing army of 130,000 and a navy of 100,000 sign a PARTNERSHIP with county with no standing army and only a few thousand roving “warrriors” in bands that all hated each other!
  
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  November 18, 2024 1:15pm
- rouppe
  
  And, with such a majority, does it really make sense that Māori would have willingly surrendered their sovereignty? Wouldn’t the more logical explanation be that Māori were giving Queen Victoria sovereignty over the European settlers, while the indigenous people of the land retained their tino rangatiratanga.
  
  Equally, does it make sense that Queen Victoria, who had colonised many other places, including our neighbour Australia, none of which included any shared governance, would suddenly decide to do so with a tiny place on the other side of the world?
  
  I don’t think so.
  
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  November 18, 2024 1:56pm
- bennerg
  
  Regarding the versioning of the ToW, can someone clarify this from a legal point, mindful that in 1840 the document was more an “Agreement” betweeen two groups of people, at a time where there was no formal system of government, to move towards nationhood that could stand amongst others in the international community.
  
  Note that a “treaty” as defined in the Oxford dictionary is:
  
  a formally concluded and ratified agreement between states
  
  … and we know the parties to the ToW were not “states”.
  
  The ToW was authored by William Hobson with the help of his secretary, James Freeman, British Resident James Henry Williams and his son Edwards Busby – in English. For the convenience of the Maori Chiefs, it was then translated into Te Reo by Henry Williams and his son Edward.
  
  Translation is always fraught with issues, but I presume it was done as best they could given that the Maori language was far “simpler” than English and the other European languages, given the nature of Maori culture at the time. I know this as one of my ancestors who was with the CMS, worked with early Maori, having also spent time in Africa. He was German, spoke English and Maori fluently. He made this point clearly in his writings that are in our possession.
  
  The Bible was also translated into Te Reo. You can call it a version of the Bible if you like, but not in a way that would make the Te Reo version, and it’s wording supersede the original. That is why historians always try and find original versions of everything, in that way they can ascertain the original INTENT of said document.
  
  So if you want to find a way to determine the original intent of the treaty, then read the English version.
  
  If there were issues with the translation, there were enough Maori who spoke English well at the time, to be able to raise an issue and highlight that to the others, but none did.
  
  Many had interactions with the British to know fully what was being proposed. One of the first Māori to visit London was Moehanga of Ngāpuhi, in 1806 (24 years before the ToW was signed). He was presented to King George III. Hongi Hika visited London in 1820 (20 years before the ToW)) with another Ngāpuhi chief, Waikato and missionary Thomas Kendall. They helped with the compilation of a Māori alphabet and grammar, and Hongi met King George IV. So no lack of talent there.
  
  So to say that none of these people were able to pick up discrepancies between the Original Treaty (in English), and the translation provided to the Maori Chiefs as a whole, is an insult to those wise and forward thinking Maori leaders who promoted the treaty to their fellows.
  
  It is sad that some of today’s Maori view their ancestors with such disdain that they claim they were hoodwinked and cheated. My understanding is that while they had not the benefit of the then “modern technology” – which included having a written language, tools to write and print – they were particularly canny, had a strong understanding of strategy, especially in warfare, and were entrepreneurial, and understood the benefit of aligning themselves with the British version of European culture. I understand the French offer was not not to their liking 🙂
  
  IMHO in 1840 it was obvious that without a strong system of government, access to modern weapons of war, the maori were also very likely to exterminate themselves. The so called Musket Wars were a testament to that, and if allowed to continue would have seen a near innihalation of their peoples. I believe that it was clear and it was insightful leaders of the Maori people that saw the joining as one people as the only way they could progress. The part played by the Missionaries I believe has not been credited, as they very much advocated for fairness to the Maori.
  
  Anyone who has had anything to do with business mergers (eg Boeing and MacDonald Douglas) knows that the technology is easy, it is the cultures that provides the biggest challenges. There were always going to be issues, with land disputes and other civil matters, but also on the other side. Never forget the brutal murder of Rev Carl Völkner, nor the Gilfillan killings in Wanganui. You can understand this was the forging of a new world view – and there would have been many on both sides that resisted the changes made.
  
  But fast forward to 2024. What I see is an attempt by certain parties to extract advantage, by using nothing more than guilt and a revisioned view of history. And sadly people born over 180 years later are being asked to pay from their wages and salaries for something that they have not personally profited from.
  
  It is time to simplify the whole situation – something I understood David Seymour and ACT are trying to do. The current Maori Party is totally backward thinking, and their policies a bit like the idea of taxing yourself into wealth. It simply will not work.
  
  Right now there is still a large amount of respect and love for the maori culture, well the bits that we can. Cannibalism and slavery, and tribal elitism are obviously not part of that, and trying to reinvent that in a modern world is rapidly going to cause our nation to descend into increasing levels of chaos and lethargy. In the end why fight for a lost cause? Good and talented people will vote with their feet, and move the Australia and the USA. Leaving what was once a vibrant egalitarian society to a tribal elite controlling a mass of sheeples.
  
  It is time to sort this out, fairly, but honestly!
  
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  November 18, 2024 3:07pm
  - Paul Marsden
    
    Well stated and right on the nail.
    
    4 1
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    November 18, 2024 6:07pm
Ghost

Another high profiled name

Alan Jones has been arrested at his luxury Sydney apartment by NSW Police over allegations the controversial Australian broadcaster and former Wallabies coach indecently assaulted, groped or inappropriately touched multiple young men.

For the past nine months, detectives from Strike Force Bonnefin, run by the State Crime Command’s child abuse and sex crimes squad, have been conducting a top-secret investigation into Jones.

Article
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November 18, 2024 12:36pm
- Tauhei Notts
  
  When Alan Jones coached the Wallabies they would play their hearts out in the first half. If they didn’t he would pull them off at half time.
  
  3 4
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  November 18, 2024 1:48pm
  - David Garrett
    
    Tauhei: Ah, very good Sir !!
    
    1 0
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    November 19, 2024 6:39am
John Loveridge

Has anybody else noticed the wretched legacy media at it again? Apparently the carkoi is “delivering a strong message to the Government” while Brian Tamaki’s convoy is “causing chaos”.
25 1
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November 18, 2024 12:50pm
- JackRabbit
  
  And this carkoi is “well organised”, “peaceful” and give plenty of media coverage with numbers highly exaggerated.
  
  By contrast the Wellington protest in 2022 was “violent”, “disruptive”, the numbers played down, and little media coverage and what was shown was negative.
  
  Maybe this carkoi should be ignored, have the sprinklers turned on them, and continuously play “Rule, Britannia!” through the loudspeakers.
  
  16 1
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  November 18, 2024 1:32pm
Surely Knott

Three youths stab a security guard in New Lynn.
“The injury has penetrated the security guard’s vest and into her torso.”

The article doesn’t name the youths or the supermarket which they say is on Totara Ave. But google shows there is no supermarket on Totara Ave. Google says there is the Station market. (a small convenience store near the train station) Is it another public transport incident?

““Charges are now being considered..”

CONSIDERED???!?? They stabbed someone!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/three-youths-aged-13-14-arrested-after-stabbing-security-guard-in-new-lynn/I7EATGFK2RDPPKQHMT3STBO6ZM/
20 1
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November 18, 2024 1:08pm
- Colville
  
  Underage.
  
  Wet bus ticket and off out the door.!
  
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  November 18, 2024 2:01pm
- cmm
  
  The youths involved are 13 and 14 years old.
  
  HTF do you effectively deal with 13 and 14 year olds stabbing people in a society that gives murderers home detention?
  
  This is what these kids are learning. There are no consequences. THey can do pretty much anything and walk away free.
  
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  November 18, 2024 2:10pm
  - Keith White
    
    In a youth-only jail until they are 25.
    
    7 2
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    November 18, 2024 3:14pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      That is the only way to protect the general public.
      Isolate the arseholes. 10 years isolation is fine by me.
      
      5 3
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      November 18, 2024 5:06pm
  - cmm
    
    We seemed to manage a few years ago:
    
    2008: 14 year old Jahche Broughton was put away for his crimes and is still inside today.
    
    What has happened?
    
    7 0
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    November 18, 2024 5:18pm
  - greybeard
    
    First thing after arrest: down to the nearest Police Station and given 6 of the best with a long cane.
    They won’t do it again.
    
    3 2
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    November 18, 2024 6:37pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    At that age with determined and unrelenting indoctrination they could be broken down and built up into better human beings.
    
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    November 18, 2024 7:37pm
- kowtow
  
  Where’s the media stars # mob such as Alison Mau et al , this is a woman victim .
  
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  November 18, 2024 2:11pm
Jethrod

I just received this and it makes for interesting reading about what is trying to be achieved in NZ re immigration and nation hood.
https://x.com/rightmindsnz/status/1858217158683357651
4 1
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November 18, 2024 2:33pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  From the Dieuwe de Boer post:
  “The public universities and state media spew open anti-white hatred.”
  A bit wrong imo. They just spew open “white” hatred.
  I do see the reasoning of the immigration views.
  
  4 3
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  November 18, 2024 4:09pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

“Donald Trump needs to make this decision on the Epstein list.”
Trump can’t run again after his four years so why not blow it wide open. Nothing to lose – except his life!! The Democrat elite and Hollywood pedophiles need to be exposed – ALL of them!
There are the remaining secret files on the JFK assassination. Trump has RFK’s endorsement on this.

https://patriotpulse.net/jesse-watters-told-donald-trump-that-he-needs-to-make-this-decision-on-the-epstein-list/?
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November 18, 2024 4:18pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

“Call Barron and see what he thinks and let me know,” Trump said, and abruptly hung up.”

https://patriotpulse.net/barron-trump-played-this-secret-role-in-donald-trumps-victory/?
5 4
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November 18, 2024 4:42pm
cmm

“A killer who has spent more than half his life behind bars for murdering a Scottish tourist with a baseball bat when he was 14 seems more concerned with how he’s being treated inside prison than with rehabilitating himself.”

The Bro must be pissed off… if he’d committed his crime in 2023 he’d be sitting at home playing XBox.

In some ways I can understand his frustration. Why should he have sat in prison for 14 years with no parole when other bastards get two years commuted to home D?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/parole-denied-for-jahche-broughton-who-killed-tourist-karen-aim-with-bat/PSSH46GMK5DIFBLKI64OFPQARQ/
8 1
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November 18, 2024 5:14pm
- fernglas
  
  Um, a possible reason is that murderers get sentenced to life imprisonment, not 2 years, even in 2023.
  
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  November 18, 2024 9:03pm
Sparrow

I think it is certain that all political parties with the possible exception of ACT will meet the hikoi tomorrow. I have no problem with that. The demonstrators are exercising their democratic right to protest.
Where I have a serious concern is how our MPs treated other kiwi demonstrators. I know a number of them and they are not the smelly rabble as Mike calls them. They are hard working tax paying middle of the road kiwis. They were treated with sprinklers loud music, and thuggery from the police.
All our MPs are hypocrites. The silent majority is watching this different treatment.
20 2
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November 18, 2024 6:50pm
- Keith White
  
  A megaload of upticks on this, Sparrow.
  
  5 2
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  November 18, 2024 8:40pm
- Mike
  
  I hope the hikoi protestors are not planning on camping at parliament, shitting in the streets, burning playgrounds or harassing locals for weeks. Hope the police are better prepared this time.
  
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  November 18, 2024 8:50pm
  - David Garrett
    
    You were there were you Mike? Several friends of mine were, and none reported much of what you claim. And I am NOT an anti-vaxxer.
    
    1 1
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    November 19, 2024 8:05am

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