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November 17, 2024 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 17 November 2024

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General Debate

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Yvette

Although it is not part of the text of te Tiriti, Lieutenant Governor Hobson, in response to a question from Catholic Bishop Pompallier, made the following statement prior to the signing of the Treaty: “The Governor says that the several faiths (beliefs) of England, of the Wesleyans, of Rome, and also Māori custom shall alike be protected.” This is sometimes referred to as Article Four of the Treaty, and relates to the right to freedom of religion and belief (wairuatanga).
https://tikatangata.org.nz/human-rights-in-aotearoa/human-rights-and-te-tiriti-o-waitangi#

Not all Maori Chiefs were able to read, but spoke and listened, so, as with the other Articles of the Treaty, if in response to a question from Catholic Bishop Pompallier, Lieutenant Governor Hobson made the statement prior to the signing, why is it not part of the Treaty – the right to freedom of religion and belief (wairuatanga), and indeed the right to be free of religion.

“Māori custom shall alike be protected”. So “alike” is surely an operative word as much as the 1970’s word “akin to a partnership” where “akin” is misconstrued as “equal”, so “co-governance”, has changed the path of history – well, New Zealand history.
So ‘alike’ surely means the Government must be neutral – it should be secular, unless a context requires an appropriate religious response, with such services usually being provided from suitable officials or their nominations, from outside of Government?

Thus the government should not favour or exemplify any one religion – at the moment like the religious aspects of te Ao o Maori, which currently penetrates almost anything from the National’s continuance (by new appointments) for the Maori Advisory Council to Water Regulator Taumata Arowai, to pharmacy union induction, real estate qualification, and almost anything written by education’s NZCER, and law’s uptake of “tikanga”

A Secular Government should have been a clause in ACT’s bill.
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November 17, 2024 8:01am
CJames

A report has come out that the case South Africa brought against Israeil for genocide in the International Criminal Court was financed by those shining examples of human rights, Iran and Qatar. There are formal ties between ANC and Hamas and South Africans promote Islamism, being a major finance centre for terrorism – inconvenient facts that progressives gloss over. And of course, there is Russian money in there.
https://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/SA_Report_Final_111124.pdf
Why am I not surprised? Just another brick in the wall of the destruction of the credibility of “international” forums. Yet the NZ government continues to believe they do good and funds them.
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November 17, 2024 8:01am
Yvette

Hansard

RAWIRI WAITITI (Co-Leader—Te Pāti Māori):
… that is how we do it. Everybody on the Māori roll; if you are Māori, get on the Māori roll. Talk to your
[Authorised reo Māori text to be inserted by the Hansard Office.]
The rangatahi are migrating. They are registering on the Māori roll. That must be our goal.
[Authorised reo Māori text to be inserted by the Hansard Office.]
Thirty-five thousand people marched yesterday across that bridge, and they will arrive here at Parliament. And one message to you, David, is “See you next Tuesday.” Kia ora tātou.
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/combined/HansDeb_20241114_20241114_40.

Apparently, if someone says ‘See you next Tuesday’ then sniggers childishly, the appropriate response is ‘Tuesday, Wednesday And Thursday’ – the Government MPs missed an opportunity there.
______________

The Maori Party, last Thursday haka in Parliament has gotten global attention by media outlets such as the BBC and CNN.
There were “high tensions on all sides” of the Treaty debate and the issues surrounding it were “complex”, Luxon] said.
“They’ve been built up over 184 years through good debate and discussion. We go forwards, we go backwards, we don’t always agree, but actually it’s made us a much better country.
“It’s too simplistic with a stroke of a pen to say ‘we’re going to resolve 184 years of debate’.”
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/533976/treaty-principles-bill-haka-mps-must-uphold-standards-of-parliament-luxon-says.

After “We will not support it after the Committee stage” has become a broken recording, so now has “It’s too simplistic with a stroke of a pen to say ‘we’re going to resolve 184 years of debate’.”
A reasonable answer of course when you think about it is “Why not?”
“184 years” also echoes the sandpit argument “We were here first” – “So, what does that mean?”

As suggested yesterday, if Luxon wants complexity, let him implement Seymour’s simplicity.
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November 17, 2024 8:06am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Tuesday, Wednesday And Thursday’ –
  
  Do we really want our Government ministers resorting to such pathetic displays of vaginal euphemisms?
  
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  November 17, 2024 9:57am
Chuck Bird

As we can no longer comment on Bassett, Brash and Hide, I thought I would post here and let Don know later.

DON BRASH: WHY I WOULD NOT HAVE VOTED FOR TRUMP

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/don-brash-why-i-would-not-have-voted-for-trump?
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November 17, 2024 8:08am
- wsk12345
  
  Im surprised that Don was sucked in by the MSM, I thought he was more astute than that. For example why did the republicans vote down the Dems border bill? Because it locked in the rights of millions more illegals to enter the US every year.
  
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  November 17, 2024 8:19am
- Chuck Bird
  
  Does anyone have a view on whether they would vote for Trump or Harris? I would vote for Trump. Thumps up for Trump and thumps down for Harris.
  
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  November 17, 2024 8:41am
  - lastmanstanding
    
    The Donald is showing you can make DEI hires without making DEI hires. It called picking the best qualified person for the job.
    
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    November 17, 2024 9:02am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Correct lastman,
      
      Trump uses slighty different meanings for DEI.
      
      Diversity means you have the courage to be an individual.
      
      Equity means you realise that you get paid for your worth and, if you want more, become more worthy.
      
      Inclusion means that if you fulfill the D and E requirements then you are included.
      
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      November 17, 2024 9:24am
    - CrazyIvan
      
      Best Qualified? Im yet to be convinced but hope to be proven wrong but I do have doubts about a director of intelligence who’s never worked in intelligence, and an attorney-general who’s never served as a prosecutor in any capacity with little direct experience as a lawyer. They might be appointed to do different things but directly relevant experience or qualifications is not one of them.
      
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      November 17, 2024 9:28am
- Philview
  
  Don is great on the intellectual debate on Maori sovereignty but he has a soft spot for China.
  
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  November 17, 2024 8:54am
- kowtow
  
  Don’s problem, when it comes to international geopolitics, is he sees everything through a Peking lens .
  
  The irony is Americans get to vote for Trump or Harris .
  
  What choice the masses of China .
  
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  November 17, 2024 9:09am
  - septic skeptic
    
    The last 3 elections the choice has been between Hillary, Trump, Biden and Harris. That’s a fine advert for democracy!
    
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    November 17, 2024 10:06am
- Gussy Fink-Nottle
  
  Brash calls Trump a racist (as do many) with no apparent justification (except that he suggested Obama wasn’t born in the US).
  
  Do we have any significant evidence of Trump’s alleged racism? Is he demonstrably more racists than, say, Biden?
  
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  November 17, 2024 10:04am
Souvlaki

An astute column in Herald this am by HDPA…paywalled , but in essence accurately pointing out how both Labour and National have seriously misread public sentiment on both the Treaty Bill and Maori Party inspired political event …the Hikoi.
Hard to believe all Nats ACTUALLY believe Seymours bill is out of line….we know they like being “whipped”….but this is becoming ludicrous….are they all incapable of individual thought???😳🧐
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November 17, 2024 8:08am
- David Garrett
  
  Souv: As I am sure you know, MP’s from the major parties are not allowed individual thought. In fact I suspect only ACT members are entitled to vote other than the party line provided proper notice is first given, and the Bill in question is not a money matter
  
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  November 17, 2024 8:13am
  - Souvlaki
    
    Yes….depressing…why go to Parliament and be confined to the cerebral limitations of sheep!?? 🐑
    
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    November 17, 2024 8:21am
    - David Garrett
      
      Souv: Yes indeed…I could never have stood for the Nats. Even their maiden speeches follow a template, first sycophantically thanking everyone in the party “who helped get me here today”
      
      Then there might be a sentence or two of blandishments regarding what they hope to do – but nothing too specific so it can’t be held against them later
      
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      November 17, 2024 8:27am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Of course some National MPs will agree with Seymour. However crossing the floor could see them expelled from caucus and perhaps Parliament. Not going to happen.
    
    If, say, 10 National MPs rebelled, that would be more difficult to deal with as expelling them would bring down the government.
    
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    November 17, 2024 8:24am
    - David Garrett
      
      Bene: At a guess I’d say more than 10 Nats would support Seymour if they were allowed to. As you say, if 10 or more crossed the floor Luxon would have to sit up and take notice. And it’s worth noting that in Britain government members often vote with the opposition.
      
      Of course that’s a much bigger legislature so five or ten rebels aren’t of any great consequence.
      
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      November 17, 2024 8:32am
      - igm
        
        I was jested on this blog not too long ago for statingt Luxon is not good for National and also bad for democracy . . . he is unfit for purpose, as are those in Parliament, sharing and supporting his woke views.
        
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        November 17, 2024 8:50am
    - cmm
      
      What could happen is a putsch to replace Luxon.
      It isn’t clear though that there is a rebel faction or a strong contender as a replacement leader.
      
      But if Luxon doesn’t square his shoulders soon, he will lose the confidence of the people.
      
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      November 17, 2024 8:33am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        He’s not exactly on my Christmas card list.
        
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        November 17, 2024 8:42am
      - David Garrett
        
        Cmm: Whaddya mean “he will lose the confidence of the people?” IMO he’s already lost it.
        
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        November 17, 2024 9:20am
      - Ghost
        
        Has he David? Latest Curia poll has national up 3.9%, act down, and only 16% think treaty issues are a main issue.
        
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        November 17, 2024 9:27am
      - BananaLlama
        
        Ghost.
        I think you will find it is increasingly becoming an issue thanks to the Maori party and international media trying to pressure the public.
        
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        November 17, 2024 9:54am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    When has any Act mp voted differently from the party. Can you give just one instance ?
    
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    November 17, 2024 9:47am
- kevn
  
  Souvlaki… Still bubbling away internationally…
  https://x.com/HicksKiwi/status/1857663964446077076
  
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  November 17, 2024 8:28am
  - Jethrod
    
    Who the hell is Paul Hicks? I just watched his lips move for 30 seconds and knew he would have an alternate view!!!
    
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    November 17, 2024 9:03am
  - Souvlaki
    
    Yes…I’ve disseminated it widely…NZ is a laughing stock to anyone with connected cerebral synapses!🤣 🧠
    
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    November 17, 2024 9:10am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  If National MPs do express their individual thoughts they will likely have their Warrants withdrawn imo.
  
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  November 17, 2024 8:42am
  - fightingtemeraire
    
    Warrants are the Document used to appoint Ministers and are issued by the GG.
    
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    November 17, 2024 9:18am
  - David Garrett
    
    Steve O: a technical point, but only ministers have warrants…rebellious MP’s ” have the Whip withdrawn” meaning they are excluded from caucus
    
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    November 17, 2024 9:23am
Bridgenag

Weekly Round-up: DEI, Covid-19 Crimes, Gaetz, Kamala, and More…

https://open.substack.com/pub/rwmalonemd/p/weekly-round-up-dei-covid-19-crimes?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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November 17, 2024 8:16am
Bridgenag

Will they ban Alternative für Deutschland?

“On Wednesday, 113 members of the Bundestag finally submitted their motion to initiate ban proceedings against Alternative für Deutschland, the second-strongest political party in Germany.”

https://open.substack.com/pub/eugyppius/p/will-they-ban-alternative-fur-deutschland?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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November 17, 2024 8:20am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Police data breach.
We were told… the gun register would be safe and secure.
Imagine if a gang got this information.

https://centrist.nz/police-data-breach-exposes-private-gun-owner-information/?

https://goodoil.news/and-they-said-the-gun-register-would-be-safe/

If the X post is taken down the Police will do their enquiry in the dark and the public will be none the wiser of this breach.
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November 17, 2024 8:21am
- cmm
  
  It is always just best to assume that all data you have given the government has been put in nefarious hands.
  
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  November 17, 2024 8:29am
- rouppe
  
  Except the database wasn’t breached.
  
  Some plonker extracted information from the register and emailed it.
  
  You can’t code around stupid.
  
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  November 17, 2024 9:20am
cmm

Some advice sought:

I am still getting the run around from both the Privacy commissioner and IRD on their data breach.

Should I approach the Minister, or should I just assume I will get a run around there too and go for an OIA request?
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November 17, 2024 8:28am
- AitchW
  
  Cmm, if your local mp is any good start there.
  A few years ago we had IRD problems and our local MP took our case to the revenue minister who fixed it in a few days.
  
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  November 17, 2024 8:40am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  OIA usually rattles a few cages. No guarantee they will comply though.
  
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  November 17, 2024 8:51am
Keep on

Brilliant https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl1iZbqlN7c&t=775s&pp=ygUKbWF0dCB3YWxzaA%3D%3D

[Mod – please include descriptions with links]
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November 17, 2024 8:49am
- Keep on
  
  Sorry, this is Matt Walsh’s take on the parliament haka disgrace.
  
  [Mod – thanks]
  
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  November 17, 2024 9:43am
Bridgenag

The Effectiveness of Lockdowns, Face Masks and Vaccination Programmes Vis-à-Vis Mitigating COVID-19
Or not! A comprehensive review by Martin Sewell, Cambridge

“A seasonal influenza-like illness became a pandemic of governmental overreach and collective hysteria. Lockdowns turned out to be the greatest health economics mistake in modern history, face masks served no useful purpose in the community, in schools or in healthcare, whilst vaccinations were effective against severe COVID-19 in the elderly in 2021, but ultimately likely did more harm than good.”

https://open.substack.com/pub/metatron/p/the-effectiveness-of-lockdowns-face?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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November 17, 2024 8:54am
- Benedict Yu
  
  How on earth could the vaccines “have done more harm than good”?
  
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  November 17, 2024 9:14am
thetiedarch

Weird how the Treaty Hikoi got all sorts of lovely, positive attention even as it shut down the harbour bridge and irritated the millions of Aucklanders.

But Brian Tamaki’s flag march gets barely anything, and today it’s an article about how the police are upset about it and considering pressing charges.
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November 17, 2024 8:54am
- Ghost
  
  The harbour bridge wasn’t shut down. One nippon clippon was.
  
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  November 17, 2024 9:25am
Yvette

Treaty Principles Bill: Seymour’s allegations around students taking part in hīkoi ‘inflammatory’
… A statement from the ACT Party last week encouraged parents to write to their school boards to remind them of their obligations for neutrality under the public service’s integrity and conduct standards.
https://www.publicservice.govt.nz/guidance/guidance-understanding-the-code-of-conduct/impartial

So, check it out

A guide for public servants on matters of integrity and conduct
Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā tātou katoa, welcome to He Aratohu. He Aratohu puts the expectations for integrity and conduct in the Public Service, into one easily accessible resource.
He Aratohu is a composite of two words ara and tohu. Ara is a route, path or course. Tohu are symbols, signs, distinguishing features or directions. An aratohu is a pathway that has been scouted and the distinguishing features marked to make the journey of the traveller safer. He Aratohu identifies important resources that help the Public Service navigate issues of conduct and integrity.
The resources available include the expectations set by Te Tumu Whakarae mō Te Kawa Mataaho, Public Service Commissioner through the Code of Conduct (including the separate Codes of Conduct for ministerial staff and Crown entity board members and Directors of Public Finance Act 1989 Schedule 4A companies), model standards and guidance either issued by Te Kawa Mataaho or endorsed guidance provided by another organisation.

That hasn’t started that well, however –

We must carry out the functions of our organisation, unaffected by our personal beliefs

… We are never justified in ignoring the operating procedures of our organisation and interpreting government policy or exercising our decision-making responsibilities in a way that suits our personal beliefs.

When expressing our personal beliefs in any public debate, and particularly if relating to matters of government policy or activities of our organisation, we should ensure comments we make are appropriate to the position we hold, and are compatible with the need to maintain the convention of party political neutrality. If we occupy a managerial position or work closely with Ministers, we need to exercise particular care.
https://www.publicservice.govt.nz/guidance/guidance-understanding-the-code-of-conduct/impartial
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November 17, 2024 9:04am
Damocles11

Chris Finlayson, Jenny Shipley, Louise Upston are typical of the blue blood, born to rule mentality that some in the National party possess. Moreover they represent the establishment appeasers, and having appeased for decades they are now ‘all in’ on appeasement. And now here comes David Seymour, an independent thinker and an utterly honest man – the two traits that make him incomprehensible to the establishment who are all about crushing conformity and deep cynicism. You can see the desperation of the establishment in the vicious words they use to attack the ‘equal rights and democracy’ bill that has widespread popular support.
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November 17, 2024 9:10am
- Souvlaki
  
  Yes ++++ Damocles !
  This is Sunday….I dear say a number of those within the ranks of National politicians ‘consider’ themselves to be Christian….Luxon we know certainly does ! How many are polishing their haloes in church as I type ??
  Well, I’ve got news for them…. the whole lot are “PLASTIC CHRISTIANS’…reflect on it you sods. You are hypocrites!
  I am in no way religious…but know that a true Christian believes we’ re all equal before God. How do you thus reconcile this with your cowardice in failing to formally recognise we should be “equal before the law” as Seymour proposes ?
  
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  November 17, 2024 10:07am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Entire Entrenched Government Bureaucracy To Be Dismantled.
This rocket guy and Indian are going to ruin everything.

https://babylonbee.com/news/entire-entrenched-government-bureaucracy-to-be-dismantled-by-indian-guy-and-autistic-african-american-obsessed-with-rockets?
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November 17, 2024 9:13am
Damocles11

The All Blacks haka gets more ridiculous by the day, but I noted the words ‘Pakeha’ ‘Whenua’ and ‘Aotearoa’ in the preamble, also sounded like ‘Kāwanatanga’ in the one they performed just now. I do nope these fools are not making a political statement.
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November 17, 2024 9:14am
- Anthony Melchett
  
  A call for violence by a bunch of overpaid thugs who support domestic violence.
  
  But if you don’t like the haka you are racist
  
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  November 17, 2024 9:37am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  For a start they are not fools, did you not think they did a completely different haka to avoid Ka Mate after this weeks bullshittery
  
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  November 17, 2024 9:53am
G152

When will Jerry get a pair and remove dance and culture groups from the house ??? And media actually deal with reporting news????
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November 17, 2024 9:17am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  We shall see on Tuesday, I thi k there will be a huge warning, I think several people who left their seat and went to the floor will be before the committee. And hijinks from TPM will see MPs automatically removed from house, not sure what more he can do, remembering that TPM are elected MPs
  
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  November 17, 2024 9:56am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Trump Worried Everyone Will Quit Before He Can Tell Them ‘You’re Fired’
Can’t drain the swamp if the swamp drains itself!

https://babylonbee.com/news/trump-worried-everyone-will-quit-before-he-can-tell-them-youre-fired?
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November 17, 2024 9:22am
imalwaysright

Watched Claire Achmad, Childrens Commissioner,having a wee chat with John Campbell on tv1.
Apparently kiwi kids are being abused, tortured, and murdered because of “inequity”.
She smiled, through the entire chat, that smile that sends shivers through most of us who still suffer from Adern flashbacks. Combine that with the word salad of bastardised pronunciation and it becomes evident that we have another trougher.
Her summation, done with a smile of such magnitude that many of her words became merely a series of exhalations, was that we should, wait for it…. listen to the children!

Marvelous
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November 17, 2024 9:48am
Swifty

Wish me luck, dear friends, for this week I enter the belly of the beast.

Yes, that’s right, this week I begin at Wellington City Council looking after a few things for them over the next few months.

If you don’t hear from me from now on you’ll know I have been consumed by the gaping maw and things have not gone well.

Keep fighting the good fight.

Farewell.
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November 17, 2024 10:07am
Bridgenag

Might have to explain that it is sarcasm Steve
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November 17, 2024 10:11am
Bridgenag

From Sky .au

Myer has been forced to cancel the annual unveiling of its Christmas window display in Melbourne’s Bourke Street mall.

A planned protest from pro-Palestine advocates has required the retail store to scrap the tradition for this year’s festivities.
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November 17, 2024 10:15am

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