General Debate 04 October 2024

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Yvette

Labour and UNDRIP
Co-governance work put on ice
The Māori Development Minister is putting the brakes on co-governance work, while National is still unsure how it will meet the United Nations declaration commitments it signed up to more than a decade ago

08/12/2022
Willie Jackson will take a recommendation to Cabinet on December 19 to halt work on a draft plan designed to meet commitments made under the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People (UNDRIP)

The process for reaching a declaration plan was for Māori to be consulted first and then a draft drawn up by the governance group for Cabinet to sign off to then be shared with the rest of the country for feedback.

The governance group provided Jackson with a draft in June, but he never took it to Cabinet because he didn’t agree with about 20 percent of what was in it and knew it wouldn’t be palatable to his colleagues.

In the months since, the group has reworked it but Jackson is now increasingly less convinced it is the right time to push ahead with the work and wants to halt it next year …

Ardern did acknowledge that it was on the Government to make sure people were properly informed, even if some of the debate around UNDRIP had been made more difficult by some of the facts being misrepresented.
https://newsroom.co.nz/2022/12/08/co-governance-work-put-on-ice/

Where is a copy of the document which Jackson saw as unfit to present to the then Labour Cabinet?
Do Luxon, Seymour or especially Winston (because his Coalition Partners did not tell him about it) now have access to these documents?

Ardern did acknowledge that it was on the Government to make sure people were properly informed
But, as yet another Labour non-delivery, we weren’t.
We are yet to see what Labour was planning to do with their departure from the original Treaty –

– after National in finally accepting UNDRIP, had announced –
• acknowledge[ment] that Māori hold a special status as tangata whenua, the indigenous people of New Zealand and have an interest in all policy and legislative matters;
• affirms New Zealand’s commitment to the common objectives of the Declaration and the Treaty of Waitangi; and
• reaffirms the legal and constitutional frameworks that underpin New Zealand’s legal system, noting that those existing frameworks define the bounds of New Zealand’s engagement with the Declaration.
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/national-govt-support-un-rights-declaration

So after saying the Treaty, as existing frameworks define the bounds of New Zealand’s engagement with the Declaration, what were Labour planning as a departure from that?

At the moment Labour is attempting to tear apart ACT’s as yet unseen proposed bill, without disclosing their own intentions on UNDRIP and He Paupau.
Integrity, transparency, delivery?
No! … as is ever the case with Labour and Willie Jackson – sitting on a report to their Cabinet
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October 4, 2024 8:01am
- Philview
  
  The document that wasn’t presented to Cabinet but strangely the proposals in He Puapua were being swiftly implemented. The last Government was dangerous and dishonest and aided by a sycophantic media. We know that this process will kick start once the next Labour/Green/TPM Government is in place.
  
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  October 4, 2024 10:00am
mandk

Tui have got a call line so people can suggest slogans for their new Yeah, Right adverts.

How about: Islam is the religion of Peace?
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October 4, 2024 8:03am
- David Garrett
  
  mandk: Brilliant! And there is much chance of Tui doing that as me being appointed a High Court Judge
  
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  October 4, 2024 10:08am
Scott

On September 22nd DPF had a post on the proposed toll road between Woodville and Palmerston North that will replace the Manawatu gorge.

https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2024/09/an_annual_pass_for_the_manwatu_gorge_road.html

I can provide a first hand report after visiting Woodville yesterday, Thursday. Woodville is really struggling. The Manawatu gorge was closed in 2017 and like many small towns they were also badly affected by the covid lockdowns. So Woodville has had a double whammy and it shows.

Many shops have shut including the once vibrant Yummy Mummy’s which was known for its excellent cheesecake. The local restaurant on the corner has now been converted to a Salvation Army thrift shop. The town is very quiet and dull having suffered for many years after the closing of the gorge.

So I have changed my mind on the tolls. I think they should be minimal and affordable. Don’t forget we pay 70c per litre petrol excise duty to the government already, which is supposed to fund the roads.

Woodville has been hit hard enough. Get the new road built as soon as humanly possible, introduce a minimal toll and help get Woodville moving.
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October 4, 2024 8:03am
Matt Long

Russia is in discussions with the Houthis, via Iran, to transfer long-range Onyx anti-ship missiles for use against Western ships.
In June, Russian President Vladimir Putin warned that if the West continues to allow Ukraine to strike Russia, Moscow could supply long-range weapons to forces willing to retaliate against Western nations.
https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1841829392588116035
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October 4, 2024 8:09am
- kowtow
  
  The international legacy media are actively ignoring the constant attacks on shipping in the Red Sea .By Houthis , but with Iranian and Russian backing.
  Why would these attacks be given such a low media prioridy.
  
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  October 4, 2024 8:25am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Sounds like a great time to have a worldwide ceasefire.
    
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    October 4, 2024 10:05am
- JimBobJoe
  
  What a shock… not.
  
  Putin can use long range weapons, striking apartment buildings in Kiev and destroying infrastructure all over the country, but the Ukrainians aren’t allowed to hit targets deep in Russia… because that is so unfair!
  
  Houthis get sophisticated anti ship missiles from the Russians its a bad thing for the Houthis. They hit a US ship (civilian or military) then their will be a US public demand for a strike back. Marines on the ground in Yemen? Unfortunately that will happen
  
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  October 4, 2024 8:44am
- Paulus
  
  Wait until Ukraine and others really strike Moscow.
  What will Putin do then ?
  
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  October 4, 2024 8:52am
  - Mod88
    
    Strike Europe, note WEF candidate and new NATO Chief Mark Rutte (ex Netherlands PM) is in Ukraine today. Note NATO has been steadily poking the Bear since the 1990 Agreement to not expand eastwards. Note the US/Biden meddling in Ukraine in 2014. Note the Donbas Regions by way of Referendum voted to return to Russia, being populated by Majority Russian speakers. Note the Ukrainians proceeded to “Ethnically Cleanse” said Donbas after that Referendum. Did everyone think Russia would do nothing. How naïve.
    
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    October 4, 2024 9:52am
- Gussy Fink-Nottle
  
  I do wonder how the liberal left, with their support for Hamas and antipathy toward Russia, will reconcile these conflicting positions as this conflagration heats up.
  
  Are Iran the good guys, fully justified in their indiscriminate attacks on Israel? Or somewhat problematic, as shit starts to get real.
  
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  October 4, 2024 9:05am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Mark Zuckerberg has seen the writing on the wall?
Done a bit of a U turn after censoring Republican comments since pre 2016.

“We are watching him closely,” Trump wrote, “and if he does anything illegal this time he will spend the rest of his life in prison – as will others who cheat in the 2024 presidential election.”
He knows Trump means business.
So: no pressure, Mark.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/from-liberal-darling-to-phone-calls-with-trump-mark-zuckerberg-s-political-transformation/ar-AA1rEBPI?
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October 4, 2024 8:09am
- Simon
  
  Zuckerberg helped facilitate the wide spread cheating in the 2020 election. The Dems promised a digital currency for Meta. Never happened.
  
  Vast evidence collected about 2020 election fraud. Will be interesting if Trump DOJ goes after the Dem fraudsters. Suspect they will.
  
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  October 4, 2024 8:56am
- cmm
  
  Zuckerboy is a complex bloke. eg. he hunts and slaughters animals which is far from classic leftie behaviour.
  
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  October 4, 2024 9:09am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Not 🦒 giraffes I hope. 😕
    
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    October 4, 2024 9:30am
    - cmm
      
      Sometimes giraffes and elephants and such are in overpopulation and need thinning out.
      
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      October 4, 2024 9:38am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        Poor 🦒 giraffes. 😣
        
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        October 4, 2024 10:09am
  - kowtow
    
    Oh I don’t know , maybe not hunting animals but when it comes to humans, slaughter for left wing regimes from the French Revolution down to the present is a very left wing preoccupation.
    
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    October 4, 2024 9:36am
  - Nigel Kearney
    
    I don’t think he is necessarily a leftie at all. He is a businessman who understands that left-wing politicians are much more likely to pass laws that might impact his bottom line so he doesn’t want to upset them. That’s a sufficient explanation for his behaviour. Of course he could be like Musk and have a spine but not everyone does.
    
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    October 4, 2024 9:51am
  - imalwaysright
    
    He targets mainly elephants, but seems to have a fondness for donkeys.
    
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    October 4, 2024 10:08am
Bridgenag

the person (YOU) be detained in a hospital or other suitable establishment;
The appalling totalitarian proposal for N.Ireland masquerading as a public health bill.

“The N. Ireland Department of Health is seeking control of all of all of us by introducing totalitarian legislation governing, YOU, YOUR premises, YOUR animals, YOUR property and YOUR documents PLUS FORCED vaccinations and FORCED medical examinations essentially seeking to implement the WHO amendments to the International Health Regulations.”

https://open.substack.com/pub/hughmccarthy/p/the-person-you-be-detained-in-a-hospital?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
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October 4, 2024 8:12am
- I remember when
  
  Recently read an item on The Conservative Woman of a woman whose child suffered traumatic injury from a vaccine (not Covid).
  She went to a meeting of those who had suffered adverse effects and was astounded by the number of people present.
  Low percentages do not always mean low numbers.
  
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  October 4, 2024 8:45am
- Benedict Yu
  
  I’ll ask these two questions in the hope that it does not trigger folk. If it does, I’m going for an early yum cha.
  
  This Northern Ireland law is described as an “update” on existing law. On a quick look it prohibits forced medical treatment. Good. However it does seem to allow for compulsory vaccinations.
  
  1. Does the provision for compulsory vaccination exist in the current Northern Ireland law?
  
  2. How does the proposed law differ in substance from comparable laws in other OECD countries, including New Zealand, going back to the 1960s, or earlier?
  
  All countries have long had provision for some compulsory medical treatment in extreme circumstances. IMO, forced vaccination of adults needs to be a provision in cases where the disease at hand is such that an unvaccinated adult could kill others. For example, vulnerable adults may not be able to be vaccinated because they are immune compromised or vaccines are otherwise contra indicated.
  
  How then do we safeguard against authorities over stepping this authority and requiring compulsory vaccinations when they are not justified? In effect that is what happened with COVID. (Sure vaccines were not forced but Chris Hipkins is evil by describing them as “voluntary”.)
  
  I don’t know the answer to my own question. In the case of the COVID use, I am steadfastly opposed to anyone being coerced to have the vaccine. The mistakes of 2021 should never be repeated. That still leaves open the question of how to codify in law a provision for compulsory vaccination in the very rare circumstances where that is justified. I hope that this is so rare that I never see it in my lifetime.
  
  IMO it is worth addressing these issues now. The alternative is to leave the thresholds for compulsory vaccination undefined. That leads to the disaster of 2021, where a panicked New Zealand government introduced emergency legislation, with the inevitable results.
  
  That is my one and only comment today on the subject. 🙂
  
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  October 4, 2024 9:50am
  - Nigel Kearney
    
    If you allow forced vaccination, someone has to make a judgment call about whether doing that is justified in a particular case. Politicians are motivated by votes not public health or individual rights. I think that means you are choosing between four options:
    
    1. Find a way the decision can be made by wise people who care about health and rights, without politicians being involved. I have no idea how to do that in practice.
    
    2. Have a culture where individual rights are regarded as extremely important and any politician who did this without sufficient justification would know they were going to get hammered in the media and at the ballot box. Again, no idea how to get there from here.
    
    3. Accept that the possible health consequences of never having forced vaccination is the least bad option.
    
    4. Accept that the cost to rights and freedom of allowing politicians to compel vaccination whenever they deem it appropriate, is the least bad option.
    
    I have a fairly strong preference between the last two.
    
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    October 4, 2024 10:03am
  - mandk
    
    “On a quick look it prohibits forced medical treatment. Good. However it does seem to allow for compulsory vaccinations.”
    
    Those two things are mutually exclusive and can’t be reconciled.
    
    And neither can you defend the argument that the Covid vaxx was not forced.
    
    When you are faced with the choice between being vaxxed or losing your livelihood, and maybe even you home, there is no doubt that you are being forced.
    
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    October 4, 2024 10:03am
artemisia

Herald today (paywalled) Media Insider: TVNZ upheaval – state broadcaster’s strategic changes, ahead of more job losses; Stuff cutting roles in Auckland

TVNZ and Stuff interviewing colleagues about how they feel about changes and job cuts coming their way as proposals to chop / change are out for consultation.

I looked in vain for some proposed changes that might address the heffalump in the room – we the people don’t trust them any more.

Seems the focus is recent in TVNZ as staff reductions are only just happening. Though to be fair 2 FTEs were dropped the previous year. According to its annual report, TVNZ has 601 fulltime-equivalent employees (FTEs), down from 735 in 2023 and 737 in 2022.
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October 4, 2024 8:12am
- G152
  
  Sack the lot
  
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  October 4, 2024 8:17am
- Ipanema69
  
  Perhaps the talent can take a voluntary paycut to preserve other lower paid jobs?
  
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  October 4, 2024 8:25am
- fightingtemeraire
  
  Stuff seems to be cutting a lot of employees these days.
  
  How long before the “Last person leaving please turn off the lights”!!!
  
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  October 4, 2024 8:31am
G152

Today (or this evening) 1957 All HMNZS Tamaki rates and trainees were called onto the Parade ground.
And all because of a little light that crossed from horizon to horizon.
That was the Russian Sputnik. The first man made satellite….
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October 4, 2024 8:18am
Ipanema69

Just catching up on the news after a period outside the country.

Reflecting on the Andrew Coster new job announcement.

I have one simple question I would like the government to answer with respect to this appointment.

What tax cuts can I expect in the next one year, two years and five years as a result of this appointment?
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October 4, 2024 8:19am
- Benedict Yu
  
  You lost me.
  
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  October 4, 2024 9:53am
Yvette

20 April 2010 – National Govt to support UN rights declaration
John Key, Prime Minister

This [National] Government has reviewed New Zealand’s position on the Declaration. The statement of support acknowledges these areas are difficult and challenging but notes the aspirational spirit of the Declaration and affirms to continually progress these, alongside Maori, within the current legal and constitutional frameworks of New Zealand.

Many of the rights in the Declaration have been enjoyed in New Zealand for years. For example the Declaration includes rights of indigenous peoples to:
• full enjoyment of all human rights and fundamental freedoms without discrimination (Articles 1 and 2);
• live in freedom, peace and security as distinct peoples (Article 7);
• practise and revitalise their cultural traditions and customs (Article 11);
• practise and teach their spiritual and religious traditions (Article 12);
• participate in decisions in matters that affect their rights (Article 18);
• improvement of economic and social conditions without discrimination (Article 21).
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/national-govt-support-un-rights-declaration

So Labour advances He Paupau
And ACT intends to put things back as they were –

Back to what National had earlier defined they would be.
So, what is Luxon’s real problem with that?
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October 4, 2024 8:19am
- Benedict Yu
  
  “And ACT intends to put things back as they were –”
  
  Is that correct?
  
  Seymour is trying to end “the Treaty is a partnership”. That principle was fully accepted by John Key.
  
  Sorry if I misunderstood your comment.
  
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  October 4, 2024 9:56am
Anthony Melchett

The numbers are out. 4.3% of the population speak Maori.

Why then are we spending so much time and effort renaming every sign, building, department and process to have a maori name?

Why must we insert made up words into a perfectly good language?

They won’t tell you how many maoris even speak it, but it is less than 20% – even if you assume all people saying they speak Maori are Maori which they arent after they forced every teacher to do the expensive course the government just slashed funding for.

The language will survive if it’s worthy of doing so, not because you force people to see and hear it as the majority just ignore it.
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October 4, 2024 8:25am
- Benedict Yu
  
  TBH I am much less worried about Maori language issues than I am about the “te ao Maori is science” issue.
  
  Having said that I would like to see this end.
  
  “Immunisation for tamariki”
  
  https://healthify.nz/health-a-z/i/immunisation-tamariki/
  
  Virtually all new migrants to New Zealand, especially those with English as a second language, would be dumbfounded by this resource heading, and so may skip right on by.
  
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  October 4, 2024 10:02am
- mandk
  
  The results of the General Social Survey, out last week, also showed that proficiency in Te Reo is in decline, despite all that money being spent on propping up the language.
  
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  October 4, 2024 10:06am
I remember when

From the Ashhurst residents meeting to discuss the proposed toll on the Manawatu Gorge Highway.
Before its closure the gorge had 7500 trips per day while only “150 brave souls” would use the Saddle Road.
So the alternative to the toll road was used by less than 2% of the traffic when there was an option.
Yes, it is a better road than prior to the gorge closure but it is also suffering considerably from the excessive heavy traffic volumes.
There is no other toll road, or suggested toll road, where the alternatives are so massively different.
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October 4, 2024 8:31am
- Benedict Yu
  
  It is stupid. The government should kill the proposal for a toll on this road immediately.
  
  Here is an idea. Toll Transmission Gully. It is perfect for a toll road. Forecast the revenue raised. Immediately reduce petrol excise nationally so that the new roll is revenue neutral.
  
  This means that the annual payment to the owner for the next 25 years is met by people who use the road.
  
  Leave the folk in Woodville alone. I’m a fan of toll roads but this is ridiculous.
  
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  October 4, 2024 10:08am
Matt Long

Israel terror regime kidnaps Yazidi sex slave from benevolent owner of 10 years in Gaza. When will the genocide stop?
https://x.com/Khaledhzakariah/status/1841761054054908314
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October 4, 2024 8:32am
- Blog-aholic
  
  It is horrid the way they keep kidnapping peoples sex slaves…..//
  
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  October 4, 2024 8:41am
- quarterpack
  
  It is the year 1446 in the Islamic calander.
  
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  October 4, 2024 8:56am
- sirknz
  
  How dare Israel stop someone from enjoying their property as they see fit!
  
  – Minto and his mates probably.
  
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  October 4, 2024 9:03am
kowtow

A modern genocide in Syria/Iraq perpetuated in the name of religion and lo and behold with ramifications in Gaza .

Amazing how the Greens, of all things “equity”, are so vocal for Gaza and yet ;

“A Yazidi woman who was kidnapped aged 11 in Iraq by the Islamic State group and subsequently taken to Gaza has been rescued after more than a decade in captivity there, officials from Israel, the US and Iraq said.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpw5v077nyjo

All credit to the IDF!
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October 4, 2024 8:35am
Prince

Gosh, fancy a woman having different political views from her husband. Of course if that husband is Trump, this must be a shocking revelation for the Media to use against him.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world-news/350439982/watch-melania-trump-posts-video-supporting-abortion-rights-odds-her-husband
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October 4, 2024 8:47am
David Garrett

On “New Idea” (Stuff) this morning:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/wellbeing/350436144/duty-sex-necessary-compromise-or-beginning-end

And this purports to be a news site FFS…
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October 4, 2024 9:02am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  The new Xaviera Hollander?
  
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  October 4, 2024 9:37am
- Dave
  
  Under the masthead is “NZ NEWS / QUIZZES / AMERICA’S CUP / LIFE & STYLE / SPORT” etc, so probably Life & Style.
  
  As always, we don’t have to read it and we get what we pay for.
  
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  October 4, 2024 9:47am
Chuck Bird

Better than climate change hysteria.
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October 4, 2024 9:04am
- Benedict Yu
  
  What is better?
  
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  October 4, 2024 9:26am
lastmanstanding

I have been thinking about introducing myself by my name followed by Lancashire England and Buckinghamshire England to relect the origins of both sides of my family. On reflection I have decided that people who do so are pompous pretentious and attention seeking.
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October 4, 2024 9:10am
- David Garrett
  
  lastman: Are you referring to “Maori” who are as white as me, but add several supposed iwi affiliations in brackets after their name?
  
  This nonsense is now very well established: a friend of mine’s girlfriend – they are my age – now has to recite her “whakapapa” – she has zero Maori blood – before saying anything else at any meeting of the department of Auckland Council she works for.
  
  It would be interesting for someone to calculate just how much time was wasted in said meetings as each person has to go through this nonsense before the meeting can begin.
  
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  October 4, 2024 9:19am
  - Inandout
    
    DG, and this nonsense under Mayor Brown who supposedly wanted to trim operating costs?
    
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    October 4, 2024 9:30am
  - pdm
    
    We suspect our eldest daughter with not a skerrick of Maori blood does this regularly because she is a Women’s Refuge Area Manager.
    
    She would not tell us though because she knows we would tell her it is complete bullshit.
    
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    October 4, 2024 9:48am
  - BarryB
    
    I have taken to signing off letters etc with:
    Ngati Airani, Ngati Kotiana.
    meaning
    Irish tribe, Scottish tribe as my mother was Scot, my father was Irish
    
    So far no one has commented. Either they think Im a raving idiot or they dont know what it means so they shut up (like ” best keep mouth shut and be thought to be an idiot rather that open your mouth and prove youre an idiot)
    
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    October 4, 2024 9:52am
- MCōs
  
  Nothing pretentious about those nondescript parts of old Blighty
  
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  October 4, 2024 9:22am
- imalwaysright
  
  If you want to see pompous and pretentious then check out this Aussie ABC presenter introducing herself :
  
  https://youtu.be/fs5Fj7CTLAk?si=5CBjN2jmSAX6v75g
  
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  October 4, 2024 9:57am
  - Ghost
    
    Ive started watching The Summit. It’s the USA version of the Aussie show, filmed in NZ. Right at the start the host welcomes the contestants to the land the Māori call Aotearoa, the country the world knows as New Zealand. Then the host, Manu Bennett, pays respect to the people whose land we are on.
    
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    October 4, 2024 10:04am
RichardX

Newsmax settles Smartmatic defamation suit over 2020 false election claims.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/trial-begins-over-claims-newsmax-defamed-smartmatic-2020-election-reporting-2024-09-26/

Why are none of these defamation cases going in favour of the defendant?

Newsmax can be added to the list of Fox News, Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell and Kari Lake with more still to come.
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October 4, 2024 9:13am
BeaB

Heavy rain in Dunedin. RNZ goes bonkers.
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October 4, 2024 9:13am
kglm

In 2016 Trump’s opponent was an unlikable woman who had an ineffectual male VP candidate named Tim. Trump won. In 2024 Trump’s opponent is an unlikable woman who has an ineffectual male VP candidate named Tim. Curious coincidence, or prophetic?
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October 4, 2024 9:13am
Inandout

Should Sir Keir and Lady Starmer’s marriage be kept under wraps, unlike Boris Johnson whose every family movement was reported on? But of course Sir Keir has accepted gifts from a wealthy man in exchange for a pass into No 10; not a wise decision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gpMJpDDwSo
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October 4, 2024 9:26am
Matt Long

So New Zealand census show that 5% of population identifies as LBGT#, and 12% of Wellington, and is it 60% of the Labour caucus?
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October 4, 2024 9:30am
- MCōs
  
  Name those you believe make up the 60%
  
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  October 4, 2024 9:33am
- pdm
  
  Matt – what % for the Green Caucus?
  
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  October 4, 2024 9:51am
Matt Long

Why, o why is the NZ economy falling behind, it’s simply incomprehensible.
Surely all the government has to do is spend more money and everything will be great. New hospitals for everyone.
https://www.interest.co.nz/rural-news/129966/national-freshwater-policy-goal-commendable-nps-fm-approach-unworkable-and-threat
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October 4, 2024 9:35am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

There is a new video on Youtube from the website/blog that I won’t mention.
It is part 7 of a series. These videos are freely available to everyone on the Youtube site.
The last Youtube video I posted a link which was removed, so now I am waiting for a return email from DPF about whether this website/blog is banned on Kiwiblog.
If it is not banned then DPF has to tell the Moderators this. There seems to be misinformation.

[Mod – you’ve been told already by mods that you were asked to cut back on the link whoring, to stop linking it to other people’s posts, and stop posting it constantly. At no point did any moderator ban you from posting the link.]
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October 4, 2024 9:48am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Mod, on Sept 30th at 4.20pm I started with a post about Gore. After a comment from a Mod I posted a Youtube link in a reply to myself. That link was removed.
  
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  October 4, 2024 10:13am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

On a mailing list I have an email from Will Shackel, Nuclear for Australia.
“If there’s something toxic about nuclear energy, it’s the misinformation campaign against nuclear waste.
It’s not dangerous, & it’s not complicated.
‘Where will the waste go’ is a poor man’s fear-mongering.
But Australian’s have been polarised on this issue because of extremist activists.”

Fact sheet”

What about the waste?

I don’t know where to shorten that link. [Mod – you don’t with that one, I will tidy it up]
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October 4, 2024 10:06am

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