General Debate 01 October 2024

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Swifty

Welcome to beautiful Birmingham!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nTHSxVafIoo

What a delight!
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October 1, 2024 8:06am
- David Garrett
  
  Swifty: I find it extremely puzzling that it is taken as a given by many that “diversity” is a great thing, and that it, and the multi-culturalism that goes hand in hand with it, should be encouraged. I fundamentally disagree, and would rather see the NZ of the 1970’s than where we are heading.
  
  I grew up in Gisborne in the 1960’s and early 70’s. Gisborne always had a large Maori population, but there was also a sprinkling of Chinese – mostly market gardeners, and all very well respected – and a few Indians. Other than them, there was the Zame family from Italy, and the Greek chap who ran the Lyric Cafe – the closest thing to an ethnic restaurent we had back then. There was no doubt that the dominant culture was New Zealand European, followed closely by Maori.
  
  I go now to parts of Auckland which are starting to resemble the Birmingham shown in that clip: Mostly Indian shops with a few ethnic takeaways. Every dairy, gas station, and liquor store is owned and run by Indians. The language on the the street is a polyglot – with very little English. Signage in languages I don’t understand. That is not how I want my country to look and sound like.
  
  I currently live in Tonga, where palangis like me make up perhaps 1-2% of the population, with Indians and Chinese making up perhaps 10% – maybe a bit more. The population is overwhelmingly Tongan, and Tongan culture – very different from ours – is clearly in evidence everywhere.
  
  And that is just as it should be – while being very polite about it, they make it clear that it is for us to adapt to their way of life, and not the other way round. And their way of life is very different from ours. I regularly tell palangis who moan about this or that to fuck off it they don’t like it – it is their country.
  
  However the corollary of that is I need to get out regularly; I want to hear my own language spoken, and not only hear Tongan. I want to be able to go into bars and cafes that are staffed by smiling white girls speaking English. I want to be able to park in the street without fear of some clown parking right behind me, and then fucking off for 30 minutes, which is a constant worry up there. I want to be able to approach traffic roundabouts 95% certain that no-one will come steaming through oblivious of me or anyone else.
  
  But after a few weeks of “decompressing” I am happy to go back to all the positive things up there. But I am and will always be a foreigner, a palangi, and it is for me to adapt to how things are done up there, and not to expect them to adapt to me.
  
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  October 1, 2024 9:49am
  - cmm
    
    Diversity being a good thing is just one of those things people say with zero proof – however if you say it enough then it becomes “the truth”.
    
    Same as “women can do anything men can do” etc etc.
    
    There are now cafes in Chrishchurch with ??Arabic?? signage.
    
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    October 1, 2024 10:02am
  - Nigel Kearney
    
    Ethnic diversity is neither good nor bad. But immigrants from India are certainly a net benefit to NZ. The small retail businesses may be what you see, but health, IT, and telecommunications in NZ could not function without Indians. They are also generally responsible, law abiding, and great parents.
    
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    October 1, 2024 10:11am
    - David Garrett
      
      Nigel: I agree with your point regarding the place of Indians in the economy. But ask yourself: Have you never – after a long wait listening to muzak – had a helpline answered by an Indian with very poor English, and found yourself thinking: “Oh no…” Well, I sure have.
      
      At the very least, immigrants to our country should be fluent in English – to a standard where an ordinary European or Maori New Zealander can readily understand them. It’s not an onerous requirement: our local general store and liquor store is Chinese run, and the family who own the stores – hugely respected by the way – are all able to communicate in English.
      
      The kids of course, who were born here, speak English with a NZ accent. I so envy them when they switch effortlessly from English to Mandarin and back again. And their parents taught them Mandarin without $1 from the taxpayer being required to fund those lessons.
      
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      October 1, 2024 10:25am
Yvette

“Treaty” Law
I have commented a couple of times, that I think it is a pity ACT does not just propose legislation which states – totally independent of the Treaty – that the Government does have the right to govern, restate legal property rights, and that all New Zealanders have equal rights and responsibilities.

It can be claimed that current two consecutive Prime Ministers claim two utterly opposite views – Luxon that Maori ceded sovereignty, and Hipkins that they didn’t – that the late Maori King said in January there are no Principles, the Treaty is written and that is it, but Geoffrey Palmer had in the 1970s inserted s9 in Law (outside of Cabinet), Tukuorangi Morgan believes Maori own water, and the present National Government has retained the Maori Advisory Council to the Water Regulator (Taumata Arowai) which could seem to confirm Morgan’s propriety view, when it is clearly the essence of life but still just pure water, and that should be it – all this garbage gives a context where law is required to clarify the circumstances but should not be entangled in it. Observe the crappy last sentence is to appreciate what I mean.

Maori did not seem to condemn Labour for it re-interpretation of the Treaty – ‘akin’ to a partenersip, and Geoffrey Palmer’s single handed ex-Cabinet efforts and then embedded for all Ardernity, Mana o te Wai and so on – it was in their favour, but promise a stink greater than the 1981 rugby protests, because ACT would put the Treaty back the way the Maori King claimed it to be.

If ACT’s proposed law is halted where National and New Zealand First plan it will (the latter not placing New Zealand first), does that mean the baby of “democracy, property rights, and equality in voting and social responsibilities” is thrown out with the Waitangi bathwater?

Will all New Zealanders’ rights be diminished by entanglement with New Zealand’s so-called “Founding Document”? Not ironic … much!

Once a simple law restated Government, property and equal rights, then all contradictory departures from the Treaty could have been challenged, but unfortunately we are going to try it arse about face, and without a plan B.
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October 1, 2024 8:06am
- Tomtoddy
  
  Luxon has to consider the consequences of refusing to back ACT’s principles bill. The likely outcome would be a huge boost to the elite driving separatism, Māori language forced even further on us, more division, more uppity actions over land, controls, representation, etc,
  
  The renewed vigour and greater arrogance that would follow the ditching of the bill should be keeping Luxon and his team awake at night. NZ will become even more of an ugly place, race wise as the elite will be emboldened to push harder and faster.
  
  Civil unrest will become a factor that Luxon and co will need to consider. There has to be a way to stop the current growth of division before hot heads take over.
  
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  October 1, 2024 8:33am
  - Colville
    
    Tomtoddy.
    
    I think you have it totally backwards. Its the center you need to be thinking about not the fringes.
    
    New Zealand has moved a long way leftward under the boot heel of Jacinda and co and it will take a while for the ship to come back to center. If Luxon and co back anything to overtly anti Treaty they will get booted out and not get to bring the electorate back to their side of the fence.
    In my view getting the bulk of New Zealand back to thinking about earning a living, that crime is bad and needs to be punished, that kids need to go to school and that taxes should be spent carefully. Real basics that have somehow become strange and need explaining. Look at the shit they are getting over the Dunners hospital…a total cluster of not their making and they are expected to eat that shit and deal with that problem and find $3bil!!
    
    It wont help anyone if Luxon is booted out in 2026… he needs to cement his position and National (and ACT) need to be there for at least 3 terms and hopefully as many as 5 terms.
    
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    October 1, 2024 8:59am
    - David Garrett
      
      Colville: I take your point – but I agree with those who say things have gone so far that helm needs to the swung 20 or 30 points to starboard (the right) and not the 10 points or so Luxon is steering.
      
      No matter what he does, there isn’t a hope in hell of his government winning five elections, and frankly it would probably be bad if they did. All governments “run out of steam” at some point, and arrogance and entitleitis takes root.
      
      The most any government has served in NZ is four terms, under Keith Holyoake and Jack Marshall in the 1960’s. And that was first past the post, where there were effectively on two choices: a National government or a Labour one. Things are much more complex now.
      
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      October 1, 2024 10:00am
    - Cassandra
      
      Coalville: the pendulum won’t swing by itself. Every opportunity Nat MPs get to state the obvious – we’ve got to wrk together – must be taken. And that includes using the media properly. Ardern’s great skill was moving the media dial; Luxon should copy that. Some funding here, favouritism there, a bit of stick – will do the trick. Okay, a lot of stick then.
      
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      October 1, 2024 10:14am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  You first paragraph is already covered with the three Articles of the Treaty.
  
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  October 1, 2024 8:38am
  - Yvette
    
    Steve, the first paragraph says – “it is a pity ACT does not just propose legislation which states – totally independent of the Treaty”
    It is anticipated the National-led Coalition Bill will link to the Treaty.
    
    I contend that is a mistake, as the ‘three Articles of the Treaty” would be incontestable if stated independent of the Treaty, supported by the UN Declaration of Human Rights and supposedly by our Bill of Rights.
    Otherwise it is just another argument about the meaning of the bloody Treaty.
    That is the difference.
    
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    October 1, 2024 9:09am
    - pdm
      
      I like that thinking Yvette.
      
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      October 1, 2024 9:25am
- slightlyrighty
  
  The problem with the far left is that it cannot grasp the concept that preferential treatment to one ethnic group is the same discrimination to other ethnic groups.
  
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  October 1, 2024 9:41am
Swifty

I foresee new positions being created in our zoos – people running around with brush and shovel collecting lion, tiger, chimp, monkey and exotic bird hairs and feathers to repatriate back to their country of origin:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350430889/international-kiwi-feathers-making-14000km-journey-home

Surely a most life-fulfilling job for those lucky enough to get them.

//
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October 1, 2024 8:14am
- cmm
  
  I expect it was flown first class – couriered in a box accompanied by a Maori escort.
  
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  October 1, 2024 9:44am
  - David Garrett
    
    cmm: A Maori escort of four or five, just like the Great Kumara Repatriation in the 1980’s.
    
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    October 1, 2024 10:01am
    - cmm
      
      I grew up in Africa eating kumara. It was funny as hell when we first got here having NZers introduce kumara to us as NZ food.
      
      In Zulu/Xhosa they are called patat (probably derived from the batata – the Portugese word for potato). My favourite was roasting them in the ashes of a fire on the beach.
      
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      October 1, 2024 10:07am
Swifty

Dagestani life hack:

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/5QoNBDrpNmL2mXQr/?mibextid=UalRPS

Diversity is our strength!

//
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October 1, 2024 8:21am
pdm

I am pleased to see The Taxpayers Union taking up the cudgels for Hastings District Ratepayers by challenging the giving Voting Rights and Remuneration to Volunteer Youth (and youthess) Council Advisers, including I believe 2 15 year olds,

I have made Jordan Williams aware that the same deal has been applied to a presently unknown number of Volunteer Iwi Advisers. These are not to be confused with the two Maori Ward Councillors put in place under the Nanaia Mahuta rort.

I remind you the Youth Council deal went through due to Mayor Sandra Hazelhurst’s casting vote. Furthermore I found out late yesterday that Councillors were given less than 48 hours notice of this item being on the agenda.

If Mayor Hazelhurst had any morals she would resign immediately. and maybe CEO Nigel Bickle should do the same.
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October 1, 2024 8:24am
- Blog-aholic
  
  I think it is clear that the mayor has a dim view of democracy (the thing she used to get elected) and a dimmer view of reality…..as to morals and ethics, I think her actions speak to those too…..
  
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  October 1, 2024 8:29am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  I do hope Jordan Williams gets the hard questions answered, and exposes any perceived corruption. Those interested should get themselves on the Taxpayer’s Union mailing list.
  
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  October 1, 2024 8:43am
  - pdm
    
    Taxpayers Union are raising funds for a Judicial Review through the High Court.
    
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    October 1, 2024 9:08am
- Grunter
  
  I think most, if not, all local Councils have inserted paid Iwi representatives into committees and sub-committees where they have voting rights. Even those councils with no Maori Wards, the dilution of democracy by stealth has happened under our noses.
  
  I challenged the Dunedin City Council on this a few years ago and got the usual “you’re a racist” response. One councilor even added that I should visit the Dunedin Museum and learn about local history as that would educate me on why local Iwi have special rights.
  
  A National-led Govt will never challenge this IMO. A Labour-led Govt will entrench it even further.
  
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  October 1, 2024 8:55am
Bridgenag

The Blokes at Bowls swear by this stuff

DMSO is a Miraculous Therapy for Chronic Pain and Musculoskeletal Injuries
The decades of evidence DMSO revolutionizes the practice of medicine

https://open.substack.com/pub/amidwesterndoctor/p/dmso-is-a-miraculous-therapy-for?r=3rl49t&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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October 1, 2024 8:38am
MCōs

This day in 1926 Suzanne Aubert died and a few days later had the biggest funeral ever for a woman in NZ
She established a soup kitchen in Wellington in 1901 that is now located at 132 Tory St.
She also started the Sister of Compassion who instigated the first crèche in Wellington to look after the little kids of mothers’ who had to work.
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October 1, 2024 8:40am
Tomtoddy

“The 65 and over share of the population in the USA rose as much in the 10 years from 2010 to 2020 as it did in the 50 years from 1960 to 2010.”

“The USA’s working age population is projected to grow by 6 million between now and 2040, while the over-65 population will swell by 20 million.”

I expect NZ’s numbers would be similar. The challenge is partly having to pay retired people a reasonable income but more importantly its their health care costs that loom as unmanageable.

Commonsense demands something be done now and not to wait when the problem is a tsunami- sized issue.
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October 1, 2024 8:54am
- ChristopherW2
  
  I’m reminded of Peter Costello noting that to frame an aging population as a terrible problem obscures the fact that people – ourselves and our loved ones – are living longer. Our loved ones not being dead is a good problem, if it is even a problem at all.
  
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  October 1, 2024 9:06am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Australia moved about 20 years ago to progressively increase eligibility for the aged pension from 65 to 67
  It was done gradually with protection for anyone over 50 when the decision was made.
  
  It should have been done here. Eventually it will be forced, without the smooth, 10 years transition that Australia managed.
  
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  October 1, 2024 9:11am
  - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
    
    Yes, this is however the NZ way, we will put it off until there is a crisis, then we will ram it through because TINA.
    
    This is how we did the 1990s reforms – 20 years later than Australia had incrementally started to open its economy.
    
    MMP and the pandering for votes that it requires, simply means the crisis, when it inevitably comes will be much tougher and much nastier.
    
    #New Zimbabwe
    
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    October 1, 2024 9:17am
  - peterwn
    
    Winston Peters will need to be pushing daisies first. Keeping super at 65 is his bottom line. If there is any hint of change he will make it an election issue.
    I have sympathy with raising it to 67. However I do agree with a comment made by Andrew Little a while back that people who do significant manual work and cannot really carry on after 65 should receive the super then.
    
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    October 1, 2024 9:24am
  - pdm
    
    BY – I agree.
    
    In my view we should start from 1 April 2025 raising age of eligibility for NZ Super to age 70 by 2050 using 6 monthly increments.
    
    At 70 I was working at least 45 hours a week as a Security guard checking properties, climbing stairs, opening/closing heavy gates etc, over two 13/15 hour shifts and one 7 hour shift – all at night.
    
    Sometimes I got an hour off at midnight but often that was interrupted by alarm call outs.
    
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    October 1, 2024 9:32am
  - cmm
    
    It was considered under John Key, but they didn’t want to rock the boat.
    
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    October 1, 2024 9:45am
- Flossie
  
  Any suggestions as to what the something that must be done ought to be? Sure raise the pension eligibility age a couple of years, but that’s not going to do anything much to help the problem of health care for the aging population.
  
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  October 1, 2024 9:13am
  - Nigel Kearney
    
    It has to involve transitioning to a system where people are responsible for their own retirement, through forced savings if necessary. Retirees being funded by the next generation is a form of pyramid scheme which will collapse when the population stops growing or when high income earners have had enough and arrange to pay tax elsewhere.
    
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    October 1, 2024 10:16am
- Inandout
  
  Tom, Muldoon arranged for the retiring age to increase from 60 to 65, but over a long period of time.
  
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  October 1, 2024 9:17am
  - Cassandra
    
    Bolger I think. Muldoon not keen on 65.
    
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    October 1, 2024 10:21am
- Grunter
  
  I agree, and I think it is now most likely too late, but the change is a necessity. By 2060, NZ will have 2 million retirees. The numbers simply do not compute when you plug in the unrealised liabilities for healthcare, retirement funding, and tax revenue. NZ Treasury has done the numbers, see here:
  Treasuries long-term fiscal analysis
  https://www.treasury.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2021-09/ltfs-2021_2.pdf
  
  The only detailed analysis and alternative thinking on this that I see as a workable way forward is Sir Roger Douglas and Rob McCulloch’s recommendation. I have posted that several times before, link below (thanks NZCPR):
  
  https://www.nzcpr.com/theres-got-to-be-a-better-way/
  
  Countries such as Singapore have a completely different philosophy – save for the future rather than hope that future taxpayers will simply cough up.
  
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  October 1, 2024 9:23am
  - Miritu
    
    “Countries such as Singapore have a completely different philosophy – save for the future rather than hope that future taxpayers will simply cough up”
    But NZ is a socialist paradise, so all will be fine
    
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    October 1, 2024 10:02am
- Tauhei Notts
  
  Tom,
  Roger Douglas brought this matter to our attention FIFTY years ago.
  And still little has been done about it.
  The problem I see is that people aged 60+ have a high voting percentage. People under 45 have a much lower voting percentage.
  Hence, the eminently suitable National Superannuation Surcharge was politically unfeasible.
  The Greedy Wrinklies would ensure that any party which proposed re-introducing such a sensible surcharge would have two shows in the polls;
  1. My show
  and
  2. No show.
  My 50 year old daughters tell me that I am a wrinklie, BUT I am not a greedy wrinklie.
  
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  October 1, 2024 9:23am
  - Inandout
    
    TN, yet in local elections the green youth seem to vote and not the older age groups.
    
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    October 1, 2024 10:06am
- David Garrett
  
  Tomtoddy: What “something” do you have in mind? Or does your thinking go no deeper than that?
  
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  October 1, 2024 10:04am
imalwaysright

Here’s an article on child abuse in care.

“https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/24/new-zealand-probe-finds-200000-children-vulnerable-adults-abused-in-care

“Sexual abuse was “commonplace”, with abusers grooming those in their care and, in some cases, trafficking survivors to members of the public, the report said.”

To be included in a RC report there must be evidence.
Who was trafficked, by whom and to whom?

There are government records of where these kids were, when they were there, and who the staff were.
We also have survivors capable of identifying these people.

But selling kiwi children to kiwi adults for sex doesn’t seem to be a big deal.
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October 1, 2024 9:27am
Bridgenag

Eleven Serious Problems with the New York City Spring 2020 Mass Casualty Event
Critical issues that demand immediate attention from authorities and citizens.

“The specter of death & doom in New York City was used to substantiate a pandemic declaration, upend life as We the People knew it, and usher in months & years of harms against children and adults around the world.”

https://open.substack.com/pub/woodhouse/p/eleven-serious-problems-with-the?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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October 1, 2024 9:42am
zubrick

15% of oz population nz born and growing. currently 670k. people are seeing the writing on the wall. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10-01/the-great-kiwi-rate-hike-experiment-and-where-it-all-went-wrong/104412704
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October 1, 2024 9:58am

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