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September 27, 2024 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 27 September 2024

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General Debate

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CJames

I for one am pleased that the coalition is prepared to continue to impose some financial rectitute on the bureaucracy by calling for a halt and downsizing to Dunedin hospital because of cost blowouts. They are prepared to risk electoral unpopularity (though with the area already voting Labour Green, it is not that big a risk) to try to get changes in the mentality of government departments. The budget appears to have been deliberately understated to get approval, then scope changes are pushed through, relying on sunk costs and too big to fail scare tactics.

From the information coming out, it was a poor site needing major remedial work, they paid too much to acquire and clear it and there have been significant additions. It is a very similar situation to the Cook Strait ferries or Wellington town hall. Plus all those obvious before they started losers like Auckland trams, bike bridge over the Waitemata, and Lake Onslow. Almost every council has had comparable blowouts. It is the same overseas. Look at Snowy 2, HS2 and almost anything the Biden/Harris administration has done.

One has to look deeply at why this occurs. At both national and local government levels, there are too many that want gold plated things but know they can’t approval for it. So they get approval for a small scheme, then go for scope changes, which are always expansions, and variations because of “newly discovered” issues. These are all promoted as bigger and better – world-leading even. Lot of little bites of increases to hide what is occurring. The bureaucrats rely on the decision makers not wanting to risk public odium by calling for a halt. Once it has started and money has been spent, that is seen as a lock-in.

Contrast that with what happens in the private sector – big projects like say power stations or smaller ones like new factories or even someone getting their house built. They also have cost blowouts but they are order of magnitude smaller. Why is that? Could it be that in a company, the management and board keep a very tight rein on money and projects. When it’s your own money, you take a lot more interest in how it is spent. Fiscal responsibility and being prepared to take hard decisions. In companies, people get sacked when things go wrong. When did that ever happen in the public sector?
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September 27, 2024 8:00am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  Former Labour Health Minister goes off like a pork chop over cutbacks in the Dunedin hospital build.
  
  Mate, you had your chance to build the hospital you wanted. But you stuffed around, and all the money was pissed up against the Covid wall. Go look in the mirror.
  
  http://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/529179/sophistry-nonsense-former-health-minister-slams-government-over-downgrade-of-new-dunedin-hospital
  
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  September 27, 2024 8:09am
  - RoboRob
    
    If I recall correctly a philanthropist in Dunedin offered to pay for construction of the hospital and the Labour health minister and government refused, stating it was the governments job to build hospitals.
    
    What a bunch of fuckwits.
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:08am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Which Labour Health Minister? They had 4.
      
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      September 27, 2024 9:22am
      - cmm
        
        They had 4?
        I would argue they had none.
        
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        September 27, 2024 9:30am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        probably correct cmm.
        
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        September 27, 2024 9:50am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        He was probably talking about Hodgson which who was minister and and they suggested he was a doctor but no he was a vet
        
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        September 27, 2024 2:38pm
    - thirteenstars
      
      “…stating it was the governments job to build hospitals.”
      
      Exactly the same idiocy that has the unions and academia railing against charter schools, as if these things are so sacred that only the state can handle them.
      
      It’s precisely because they are so important that the state shouldn’t be let anywhere near them.
      
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      September 27, 2024 10:03am
    - Ghost
      
      Have you got a link? All I can remember is the philanthropist donating for a children’s hospital and mental health in Wellington.
      
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      September 27, 2024 10:31am
      - RoboRob
        
        I definately recall there was an option but finding a link is hard.
        
        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/338008/ardern-raises-stakes-over-dunedin-hospital
        
        https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/health/nurses-against-ppp-rebuild
        
        Looking at the first link it appears that national were going to do a ppp and Labour said no. So perhaps it was a ppp on the table that Labour was declining.
        
        Interestingly National were promising completion in 7-10 years, so it might have been finished now if they had been elected. JA said that was too long and Labour would get it done faster, how did that pan out :))))))
        
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        September 27, 2024 10:51am
      - Ghost
        
        I do remember something about fundraising for a charity cancer clinic, did labour stop that?
        
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        September 27, 2024 10:57am
    - kevn
      
      Robo… The philanthropist in Wellington behind the new Childrens Hospital had to put up with such nonsense.
      
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      September 27, 2024 10:35am
      - RoboRob
        
        Yeah I might have him mixed up with a promosed Dunedin PPP.
        
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        September 27, 2024 10:52am
    - Paulus
      
      Wellington has built a new Children’s Hospital, donated by a local Philanthropist Mark Dunajtschik.
      So why not Dunedin because they are halfwits – well must be to give the worse Finance Minister Robertson a $800,000 a year job doing sweet fa.
      
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      September 27, 2024 2:06pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Exactly, but not sure who has they much money, we do not have any billionaires down here
      
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      September 27, 2024 2:34pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    If Ayesha Verral hadn’t blown over half a billion dollars on Rat tests last year the hospital may still be on track.
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/493331/minister-defends-stockpile-of-60-million-rapid-antigen-tests
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:25am
    - Ghost
      
      A rat test has a shelf life of 1 – 2 years, she inherited that mess from minister little.
      
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      September 27, 2024 9:40am
      - RoboRob
        
        Labour incompetence either way 🙂
        
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        September 27, 2024 10:53am
      - David Garrett
        
        Ghost: Little fucked up literally everything he touched…most notably keeping his temper under control when he was leader.
        
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        September 27, 2024 10:59am
      - Ghost
        
        his mess in health will take a long time to clean up. I’m surprised the pike river families worked with him. Biggest failure in everything he’s been involved with
        
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        September 27, 2024 11:06am
      - RoboRob
        
        @Ghost
        
        Disagree re Pike.
        
        I think that was a stunning success for Labour and NZF. They successfully weilded Pike river as a hammer to beat National around the head with. Then after getting elected dragged it out so long that no one really cared when it returned to the same state it was under National. Political gain all the way and who cares about $80m or the emotions of the families invoiced. Labour and NZF at their very best.
        
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        September 27, 2024 1:16pm
      - Ghost
        
        Have a read of this post. If you were a pike river family, would you deal with little? I wouldn’t
        
        https://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/2014/12/how-andrew-little-failed-pike-river.html
        
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        September 27, 2024 1:31pm
      - RoboRob
        
        @Ghost
        
        I think you misunderstand me. I think Little (and Winston) are scum for the way they treaty the Pike river familys for political gain.
        
        I am fully aware that Little was in some part responsible for the deaths of the workers, which is an issue he will have to live with.
        
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        September 27, 2024 2:39pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Notice they stayed out of it while marching action was being discussed, now they are expert, the building guy for health no said today if you add all the costs up including decommissioning the old hospital and computerisation car parking and a few other costs that will make the build more than 3 billion
    
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    September 27, 2024 2:31pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    She s as do was the minister who cut funding to 1.6 billion before the election, as usual this government are budgeting more and they still whinge.
    
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    September 27, 2024 2:33pm
- Anthony Melchett
  
  Wasn’t this hospital already designed and ready to be built by the last national government?
  
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  September 27, 2024 8:17am
  - JimBobJoe
    
    Yes.
    
    But… it was a Public Private Partnership deal that the Nats had lined up. See timeline here:
    
    https://infrastructurepipeline.org/project/new-dunedin-hospital
    
    As Labour hate PPP’s they canned that approach, then respecified the whole project including appointing an ex Labour Minister to run the project in Pete Hodgson (no hint of cronyism there of course)
    
    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/health/hospital-rebuild-chairman-sacked-hodgson-given-job
    
    So all the preparation work done by the Nats was redone and a new approach taken…
    
    Which of course meant 6 years of faffing around and delivering nothing because the Ardern/Hipkins Ministry was the least capable Ministry in my lifetime of actually delivering non-ideological projects…
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:08am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Exactly, but not sure who has they much money, we do not have any billionaires down
      
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      September 27, 2024 2:43pm
- Clyde
  
  This mornings Otago Daily Times is full of outrage and encouraging all of the citizenry of Dunedin to march tomorrow to protest THIS Government’s decision to impose an upper limit on the build, but totally ignoring the basic fact that it was the PAST Government that decided to build on an inappropriate and costly site and that it completely failed to correctly cost the project. As C James says above, this is totally typical of Government (particularly of the left) and Council projects.
  
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  September 27, 2024 8:17am
  - Phronesis
    
    The ODT has a short memory:
    
    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/election-2017/ardern-pledges-quick-hospital-construction
    
    “Labour would not commit to a completion date, but is promising a quicker build than National’s seven- to 10-year timeframe.”
    
    Saturday, 26 August 2017
    
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    September 27, 2024 10:07am
    - Paulus
      
      ODT is only there to make money by sales, and Government Taxpayers money helping.
      Assume Robertson will be there leading ?
      
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      September 27, 2024 2:09pm
  - kowtow
    
    The city councillors are really pushing this.
    
    The should stick to their knitting and stop their relentless spending, pushing rates up to levels that are crucifying rate payers.
    
    Politics of distraction.
    
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    September 27, 2024 10:47am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      I told one of our councillors who had her fingers in action on line, how about wait too see what options they take? She said oh got to get the ball rolling. I told her to get her energy into cutting our rate increases back and not worry about this grand standing, no reply
      
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      September 27, 2024 2:53pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  In the Private Sector cost blowouts on a large scale means bankruptcy.
  Anything where Govt/Taxpayer money is involve the cost does not matter. Milk it for all it’s worth. Time for some serious Public Sector sackings. It is happening far too often.
  
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  September 27, 2024 8:19am
  - MCōs
    
    The Sky City Convention Centre was originally due to open in 2015 at a cost of $350mil
    From what I can figure out it’s ten years late and the cost is up around a billion dollars.
    Let’s see what happens to the cost of the redevelopment of the Auckland Airport
    
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    September 27, 2024 8:40am
    - CJames
      
      Almost all the senior management and board of Fletchers have gone because of this and other failings. The industry gossip is that it can be traced back to a management decision to get rid of a lot of their senior QS and restructuring their project management teams.
      
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      September 27, 2024 8:47am
      - RoboRob
        
        Yes, in the private sector huge blowouts like Sky city end in those in charge losing their jobs, unlike the public sector.
        
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        September 27, 2024 9:03am
      - Swifty
        
        Wasn’t that the one that was near completion but burnt down and had to be rebuilt from the ground up?
        
        That would have added a few dollars to the cost…..
        
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        September 27, 2024 9:18am
      - Matt Long
        
        Swifty, because they used environmentally friendly paper insulation instead of fire resistant product like say, wool.
        
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        September 27, 2024 11:11am
    - Grunter
      
      The free-market model often produces failures. But those failures have immediate consequences, people and capital move somewhere else.
      
      Government monopolies ALWAYS produce failures, and they seldom result in any consequences…..until they run out of other peoples money of course. That reality hit Dunedin yesterday.
      
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      September 27, 2024 9:08am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Hang on, you can’t help the fact of the fire, the casino paid did they not?
      
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      September 27, 2024 2:54pm
- PeeJay
  
  Being in the construction industry, I always find it amusing that it is always the same contractors and consultants involved in these projects. They are always hired because of their size and experience of working on these types of projects. I suppose one could argue that as the contractors and consultants are involved in all of these cost-blow out type projects, they do indeed have experience!
  
  It would seem that they just don’t have a lot of experience in bringing in projects on time and budget!
  
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  September 27, 2024 8:23am
  - sirknz
    
    You would think that part of the tendering/procurement process, that a significant part of the scoring would include “Are your projects brought in on time and on budget?”…
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:05am
    - G152
      
      We -could- use Chinese contractors
      
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      September 27, 2024 10:24am
      - Jack5
        
        As long as it’s not the Chinese contractors who build submarines:
        
        https://apnews.com/article/china-nuclear-submarine-sank-us-military-3c68bba0882fe81b3ace6da6c39e771b
        
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        September 27, 2024 1:46pm
  - RoboRob
    
    I have always though there was an un spoken agreement between contractors and government agencies, especially councils, where the contract knowingly under quotes the work. They do this so that the council (or other) can sell the build to the public and the contractor gets a job that they may never have gotten. Then over the years the coucil increases the spec to what they really want and the builder ‘discovers’ issues that push the price back to what they should have quoted.
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:06am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Kiwi builders should stick to 3brm bungalows.
      Anything bigger than that seems to go south at a great rate.
      The public pays a lot of money for incompetence.
      
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      September 27, 2024 9:30am
  - Grunter
    
    These crooks (consultants) have plenty of experience in how the system works – that is the problem. They deliberately lowball at the start, then deliberately inflate with overruns after lining their own pockets.
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:11am
  - artemisia
    
    Contract variations – where the cream is – need to be managed. Hard. Especially by the customer who has provided or signed off the requirements and made the decisions on changes. Unfortunately it is very often those customers that can’t resist adding a ‘ little bit’ here, changing something there, failing to manage scope and the supplier.
    
    General incompetence.
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:34am
- peterwn
  
  Years ago I did a business case to increase power capacity to a region. The options were a new 220kV substation (very expensive) or a second simple 66kV line. The second 66kV line was the most economic option and financial authority was obtained on that basis. I then took a years leave of absence. Those responsible for building transmission lines thought that a 66kV line was short sighted and designed a 110kV line (to operate at 66kV) on the false basis it would not cost too much more. I returned from leave but worked in a different unit. Meanwhile the 110kV line was built and the cost blow-out was obscene. If I had not taken leave I would have loudly complained about the sneaky upgrade. An internal inquiry was held, I was questioned and gallons of whitewash was applied. Then I heard that the local maintenance crew did not have the skills or equipment to work on the 110kV line, but could readily maintain the 66kV line. I happened to speak to one of the local engineers and said I had originally recommended a 66kV line and he said that was just what they needed! Now that was over 40 years ago and that 110kV line still operates at 66kV. Money down the gurgler.
  
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  September 27, 2024 8:23am
- artemisia
  
  Occam would say general incompetence.
  
  Rather than politically motivated fudging early with a view to slipping in later what they really want. Under the radar. Are they that clever? Look at the governance for a clue.
  
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  September 27, 2024 8:27am
  - CJames
    
    It is only incompetence for the first time. After that, it is learned behaviour. No doubt it doesn’t affect any of their bonuses either so is rewarded.
    
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    September 27, 2024 8:33am
  - kowtow
    
    One of the problems with this whole project is it wasn’t entirely about a new hospital , it was also about urban renewal .
    
    It could have been sited on Crown land at the already existing Wakari hospital , but no they had to site it on ex industrial , reclaimed land between two sides of SH1 , in order to give the dieing city centre a boost ( and be close to the uni ) .Wakari’s only a short hop from the uni anyway.
    
    It’s political.
    
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    September 27, 2024 8:36am
    - Taieri
      
      Former Carisbrook site was even better than Wakari.
      
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      September 27, 2024 9:12am
      - Grunter
        
        Exactly – flat land with all the services ready, right beside the elderly population of South Dunedin, easy access without causing disruption to SH1. The Scarvies could catch a bus in 10-15 mins for Med School…..
        
        It just made too much sense for the Govt, and the DCC.
        
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        September 27, 2024 12:37pm
  - cmm
    
    Is it incompetence or is it just ego-gratification with other people’s money?
    
    By the way the private sector is not devoid of these problems either.
    
    I work with a few large organisations. Once they hit the few-hundred million-dollar mark then it is easy to hide vanity projects in the engineering department and to do things that are not in the interests of the share holders.
    
    One of my customers has a research group spending millions of dollars a year investigating a new buzzwordy technology with close to zero chance of ever making a product – let alone a profit. But it’s fun and interesting, so they tell everyone they’re doing valuable research promising amazing breakthrough products.
    
    Mathematically everyone is pretty sure that a better result could be had for far less research by expanding slightly on their existing technology but the managers suppress this because they want to play with their fun technology.
    
    So the exciting stuff gets the funding and the “boring” stuff that actually pays the bills gets short changed to make that happen.
    
    Having seen this in more than one large multi-billion-dollar company I think this is more of an issue of people being allowed to spend other people’s money and forgetting what they are supposed to be doing (ie. creating value for share holders or taxpayers).
    
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    September 27, 2024 8:46am
  - JimBobJoe
    
    Appointing an ex-Labour Minister to run a respecified project in Dec 2017 seems to indicate that political interference is definitely a causal factor….
    
    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/health/hospital-rebuild-chairman-sacked-hodgson-given-job
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:11am
- rockape
  
  The cost per square meter of this hospital make it the most expensive in the Southern hemisphere.
  
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  September 27, 2024 8:36am
  - MCōs
    
    Is that water meter or electrical meter?
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:05am
    - cmm
      
      Merican spellchecker meter/re.
      
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      September 27, 2024 9:22am
  - Phronesis
    
    Given the relatively high inflation rate it would be surprising if every new hospital wasn’t the most expensive ever.
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:55am
- Simon
  
  NZ no longer has the skill set to maintain infrastructure across the board. Retiring boomers – with all that experience & knowledge gone, too much immigration screws with planning, bloated govt departments wrecked by DEI, feminized planning processes, the actual work force…..
  
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  September 27, 2024 8:49am
- the deity formerly known as nigel6888
  
  Dunedin will vote labour again, so there are no consequences for either side. Labour will never learn to manage project budgets, and there is little political risk for National in ratfucking the idiots who presided over this shit show. They do need a solid plan B for patients though, because the media ate already squealing like little piggies.
  
  Not a hard plan B though is it. “Which would you rather have, staff and procedures and reduced waiting times, or massively cost overrun buildings. Choose wisely”
  
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  September 27, 2024 8:57am
  - MCōs
    
    We’ll believe you, said nobody ever
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:27am
  - Prince
    
    It’s like an episode of ‘Yes Minister’.
    Minister: We must get on and complete the building.
    Bureaucrat: That is the last thing you should do.
    M: What do you mean ? We need the hospital.
    B: No.
    Actual Hospitals result in queues, waiting times, failure to meet targets. Bad press.
    Building Hospitals results in Hope, Future Prosperity, Pretty pictures of trees, healthy patients, sunny days.
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:38am
- MCōs
  
  The current administration has promised all sorts of new expressways in the North Island plus new Cook Strait ferries and a bridge over the Ashburton River
  Let’s see if any of them get built and if they do what the inevitability cost blowouts are.
  The previous National administration promised a four lane road Chch to Ashburton. That’s fallen through the cracks although briefly revived by the hapless Todd Muller
  This lot are doing preliminary work on an outrageous tunnel between the Wellington CBD and Kilbirnie that would cost more than four Dunedin Hospitals before it’s finished
  
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  September 27, 2024 9:03am
  - RoboRob
    
    I expect some of the promised work to actually start before the end of the first term. If they make 6 years I expect all to start and some to be finished by then.
    
    The CHCH northern and southern motorways were planned and ready to go in the 90s (?) Helen Clarks government blocked them all and it wasn’t until the Key government that they were started AND finished. What a massive improvement they have made. National governments have the management skills to actually start and complete jobs. Labour governments promise more and delivery much less.
    
    FYI the promised CHCH – Woodend bypass was planned and ready to roll under the Key govt and blocked under Labour as they wanted to focus on public transport (lol how did that go). I expect they could and possibly will break dirt sooner rather then later.
    
    I hardly think you can complain about National not building roads, its Labour that doesn’t do roads.
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:17am
- Taieri
  
  This whole project has been grossly mismanaged from the day one. The first disaster was the selection of the former Cadbury site, between two sections of SH1. The latter factor appears to be completely ignored. The site itself was unstable, with contaminated soil due to many years of industrial activity there. Initially, no car parking was planned for – according to Pete Hodgson, who for some strange and unexplained reason was put in charge of this project, there’s no need for one, due to the imminent introduction of autonomous cars, which would not require parking spaces. The only argument in favour was its proximity to the medical school, in the end it seems to have been the deciding criterion for the selection of this site.
  The ideal location, the former Carisbrook site in South Dunedin, was ignored due to its distance from the medical school. Eventually, the project started at very much the snail’s speed. And the costs started accruing exponentially even before the first turf was turned over…
  
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  September 27, 2024 9:10am
  - Chris
    
    Either Carisbrook or even up at Wakari – lots of space, not on reclaimed land and its already a Hospital campus!!
    
    The stupidity of building in the CBD on crappy low lying, reclaimed land beggars belief!
    
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    September 27, 2024 11:58am
  - artemisia
    
    Autonomous cars? Perhaps they were seriously futuristic thinkers (usng the term advisedly) and binge watching The Jetsons.
    
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    September 27, 2024 12:26pm
- Gussy Fink-Nottle
  
  CJames is quite correct regarding the practice of understating budgets. There are disingenuous feasibility evaluations for sure, but there’s also a good deal of ‘optimism bias’.
  
  If you’re interested in why so many large projects go wrong, I can recommend reading Bent Flyvbjerg.
  
  And yeah, it’s good to see our current government prepared to put the breaks on, and be a little less susceptible to the sunk cost fallacy.
  
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  September 27, 2024 9:54am
- Benedict Yu
  
  It happened with Novo pay that disastrous education payroll system that Steven Joyce had to fix. Official in charge sacked. Also the second tier executive who signed it off sacked.
  
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  September 27, 2024 10:34am
  - MCōs
    
    Here’s an article about the Novapay fiasco written in 2020 at which time the software was still flawed eight years after its premature introduction and well after Joyce had come and gone.
    The off the shelf system cost thirty million plus forty five million to fix because a bespoke system was what was required if this analysis is correct
    https://medium.com/@tomhovey/how-poor-strategy-cost-nzs-government-45-million-1cc678d81472
    
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    September 27, 2024 2:14pm
    - MCōs
      
      How many projects from mega government enterprises to domestic diy have ballooned out of control due to taking the cheap option
      
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      September 27, 2024 2:31pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Not so sure it has been down sized, there are two options, one is to take a floor or two off and retain some of the hospital for none emergency care, that would be my preferred option, that way it would not be down sized, I heard Hosking had the building person for Health NZ on radio this morning, he asked him outright, where did they get this three billion dollar price tag from? If you take everything into account, it will be over 3 billion. He said computerisation and decommissioning the old hospital into account. He stated these costs were well above 100 mill each, yet who gets want it paid, they forget Labour cut funding to 1.6 billion before the election.
  
  I say cut two stories off, retain some of the old hospital, that will probably speed the build up and save on decommissioning, sell what’s left
  
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  September 27, 2024 1:22pm
peterwn

Herald says the aborted ferry project ‘looks good’ compared with the current studies and reviews. Who is the Herald trying to kid (or are they being sarcastic)? The now aborted proposed ferries were turkeys and would have always been turkeys because they were just not suited for Marlborough Sounds conditions. This is quite apart from massive cost over-runs with no end in site. Presumably the Herald, the Seafarers Union, the Standard etc think if you tell a big enough lie (that the proposed ferries were eminently suitable) often enough, people will believe.

Shane Reti and Bish have now put the brakes on another project that was spiralling out of control – the new Dunedin Hospital. This was shaping to be a nearly as big money sinkhole as the cancelled ferries project. Shane has far better things to do with the health budget. Critics think the Government has broken promises to Dunedin. Except they do not realise if a Government politically promises anything, it is not binding on any new government. The promise disappears with the election. Anyway since Dunedin predominantly votes Labour then why should a new centre-right Government care too much about Dunedin.

The National led coalition’s attitude on spending is refreshing, the other lot thinks that money grows on trees.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/slow-government-decision-making-on-ferries-starts-to-make-irex-look-good-editorial/ZMCUAX2R7JC3RIMMK262TX5TNI/

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/529157/dunedin-hospital-outrage-over-govt-decision-to-downgrade-project
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September 27, 2024 8:00am
- Taieri
  
  Anyway since Dunedin predominantly votes Labour then why should a new centre-right Government care too much about Dunedin
  ———–
  
  The old pork-barrelling strikes again, heh…?
  
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  September 27, 2024 9:16am
- peterwn
  
  “Government did not consult with rail users before cancelling Interislander upgrade – industry expert”
  Well, the proposed ferries were turkeys anyway, so there would have been no point in ‘consultation’. Anyway Robbo had put his head in the sand and put off any decision making. The moment Nicola Willis put her feet under her Beehive desk, one of the most urgent items she had to deal with was Kiwirail’s funding request that Robbo did not want to look at. Meanwhile Kiwirail was using every accounting trick to keep things moving assuming the extra money was forthcoming. So Nicola had no time to consult with anyone except the PM and Cabinet colleagues.
  So goodness knows why the so-called industry ‘expert’ (the Mainfreight chief) thought the turkey was going to fly. He was not wanting to give an expert opinion, he was just lobbying for his company. He had just drunk Kiwirail Kool-aid.
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/529180/government-did-not-consult-with-rail-users-before-cancelling-interislander-upgrade-industry-expert
  
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  September 27, 2024 9:54am
  - Paulus
    
    The whole thing was Rail Union led taking the Labour Government by the nose for their money.
    
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    September 27, 2024 2:20pm
- Mike
  
  Why did the seafarers’ union want ships that (allegedly) could not operate in the sounds?
  I’m not saying this couldn’t happen. Our navy, for example, has several times bought expensive ships it couldn’t use.
  
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  September 27, 2024 10:21am
  - peterwn
    
    Because the union believed (or liked to believe) that the new ferries were going to work out fine. Because they were large ships there was plenty of scope for higher pay scales and featherbedding. So that is why the union wanted to poke borax at the incoming government eg calling for Nicola to be fired.
    Interestingly Parliamentary Services was a tenant of the union’s building since Robbo had his electorate office there.
    
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    September 27, 2024 11:44am
    - Taieri
      
      Because they were large ships there was plenty of scope for higher pay scales and featherbedding.
      ————
      
      The size of a ship has very little bearing on the pay scales applicable. The largest vessels such as container ships and bulk carriers are not paying particularly well. And neither are passenger ships. The Interislander ferries’ pay scales are reasonable but not the highest, even in the small NZ shipping industry. The Bluebridge’s are not even close to that. The highest paying jobs in the maritime industry are in the offshore sector, which is using fairly small vessels and on the fish factory vessels, which are generally also relatively small.
      
      As for “featherbedding”…I’ll not privilege this with comment…
      
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      September 27, 2024 12:14pm
      - wsk12345
        
        I have a mates missus works for interislander on the check in counter. Brings in just shy of $100 k pa. They can’t move – his (much more highly qualified) job doesn’t pay nearly so well.
        
        I dread to think what the people tying up the boat are paid, or the crew onboard in often horrible conditions!!!
        
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        September 27, 2024 2:20pm
      - Taieri
        
        I have a mates missus works for interislander on the check in counter.
        ————
        
        I don’t have a mates missus, but I have a copy of the employment contract for the marine crew with the pay rates and conditions.
        
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        September 27, 2024 3:18pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  Sadly the folk in Dunedin have the hospital aspirations of Australia, whilst voting for politicians who want turn New Zealand into a Fiji with mountains.
  
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  September 27, 2024 10:36am
- Paulus
  
  No, Labour makes the Money Grow on telling the Reserve Bank to print it, a normal Labour STFU.
  And would continue indefinitly under them, irrespective of the consequences.
  
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  September 27, 2024 2:17pm
Yvette

Kawanatanga (governorship)

On 28 October 1835 Busby called a hui at Waitangi. By the end of the day 34 Rangatira had signed He Whakaputanga o te Rangatiratanga o Nu Tireni (known in English as the Declaration of Independence of the United Tribes of New Zealand). – Sir Geoffrey Palmer
https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/09/24/the-dubious-politics-of-the-treaty-principles-bill/

Footnotes – Declaration of Independence of the United Tribes of New Zealand –
2. The sovereignty/kingship (Kīngitanga) and the mana from the land of the Confederation of New Zealand are here declared to belong solely to the true leaders (Tino Rangatira) of our gathering, and we also declare that we will not allow (tukua) any other group to frame laws (wakarite ture), nor any Governorship (Kawanatanga) to be established in the lands of the Confederation, unless (by persons) appointed by us to carry out (wakarite) the laws (ture) we have enacted in our assembly (huihuinga).
https://www.archives.govt.nz/discover-our-stories/the-declaration-of-independence-of-new-zealand

Footnotes – Treaty of Waitangi –
6. ‘Government’: ‘kawanatanga‘. There could be no possibility of the Māori signatories having any understanding of government in the sense of ‘sovereignty’: ie, any understanding on the basis of experience or cultural precedent.
https://www.waitangitribunal.govt.nz/en/about/the-treaty/maori-and-english-versions.

So Maori signed a document in 1835 which asserted their kawanatanga (governorship) o Nu Tireni (over New Zealand) but about four and a half years later, again at Waitangi, Maori did not understand what kawanatanga was?

When you are told a half truth, the problem is not knowing which half you have
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September 27, 2024 8:01am
Grunter

A message to all my fellow Dunedinites that are grumpy over yesterdays hospital build announcement……

“Stop Voting Labour!”

If you don’t understand that these nut jobs are socialist wreckers then you deserve a Soviet-style hospital (one that doesn’t work).
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September 27, 2024 8:10am
- RoboRob
  
  Yes, the Labour loving Dunedinites need to understand that the hospital could have been completed under Labour. Labour slow walked it knowing it was a financial dog. They also turned down the offer from someone to pay for it for them !
  
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  September 27, 2024 9:20am
  - RoboRob
    
    I am wrong abut that last bit. Labour declined a PPP on the build. Me thinks Dunedin would have been better off with a PPP hospital open now then what they currently have and might get.
    
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    September 27, 2024 11:00am
NeverMindTheBollocks

Driving an EV can be twice the price of driving an ICE car.

In the UK, EVs charged up via public rapid chargers can cost 24p+ / mile, while diesels come through at 12.5p / mile.

Charging up at home is much cheaper, but few houses in the inner suburbs of the bigger cities have off street parking, which means running a cable across the footpath and in through the letterbox flap is the only option. Lucky that the Poms don’t have ACC!

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Rising-EV-Charging-Costs-Threaten-UKs-Electric-Vehicle-Adoption.html
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September 27, 2024 8:10am
- info@cruzpro.com
  
  24p/KwH works out to be about NZ$0.50/KwH.
  
  Last time we fast charged in Auckland the cost was NZ$0.85/KwH.
  
  At home we charge for free. Electric Kiwi free hour of power gives us enough juice for our normal daily driving.
  
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  September 27, 2024 9:03am
  - Taieri
    
    Electric Kiwi free hour of power gives us enough juice for our normal daily driving.
    ———
    
    That’s very generous. And how much does the Electric Kiwi charge you for all the un-free power?
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:18am
    - imalwaysright
      
      T
      The power companies who promote the free hour of electricity make a lot of money from it.
      Most run the washing machine and have showers etc and use a lot of hot water which is then reheated at full cost in the following hours.
      
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      September 27, 2024 10:24am
    - rouppe
      
      Exactly. I’ve noticed several electricity retailers that offer “free power” have a daily rate of approaching $2 a day, while others are $0.90 a day
      
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      September 27, 2024 11:09am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Really? Buy a nice big battery+inverter, charge battery in that hour and use it to power everything for the rest of the day.
      
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      September 27, 2024 11:40am
    - sirknz
      
      When I signed up, they were the least expensive option at the time.
      
      Last time I checked on powerswitch, they were the least expensive option again.
      
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      September 27, 2024 11:51am
    - wsk12345
      
      A lot! We just switched as peak time power with them was up to 48.5 c/kWh!!!
      
      Strangely Genesis owned Frank manages about 23c/kwh all day (same as EK off peak) but we do t get the free hour anymore.
      
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      September 27, 2024 2:23pm
      - Taieri
        
        I pay 28.4 c per kWh all day. Contact Energy. No “free” hour(s).
        
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        September 27, 2024 3:21pm
  - cmm
    
    “At home we charge for free.”
    
    No you don’t. The cost is just hidden from you.
    
    9 1
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    September 27, 2024 9:25am
    - Keith White
      
      My electric motorsickle charges free from solar panels on the roof of the bike shed.
      
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      September 27, 2024 12:48pm
  - Ghost
    
    Do they only give you 1*free* hour?
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:44am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Anything “free” was taken from someone else.
    No such thing as a “free” lunch.
    
    8 1
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    September 27, 2024 10:31am
  - Handyman
    
    The article refers to 24p per mile, not 24p per KWH.
    That is roughly 37c per km (30c + 7c road tax) in NZ compared to petrol at 20c per km for average small car (including road tax).
    
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    September 27, 2024 1:36pm
- MCōs
  
  NZ is entirely different to the UK
  Most houses here have off street parking because the population density is less than a tenth of old blighty
  
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  September 27, 2024 9:25am
Matt Long

Is it a bird, is it superman? No it’s a train.
“Vital” rail link to Kauri reopens temporarily.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/529104/northland-railway-line-reopens-after-20-month-closure-for-rebuild
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September 27, 2024 8:13am
Matt Long

Sewage spill in Motueka prompts boil water notice. Prosection of Tasman District Council and officers in 3, 2, 1, never. Because human waste in aquifers is fine.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350427093/sewage-overflow-prompts-boil-water-notice
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September 27, 2024 8:16am
- CJames
  
  You can redefine the area to water bodies and add Wellington and Auckland Harbour for the same inaction. Everyone knows it is only cows that cause the aquifer pollution. That seems to be what green councilors and bureaucrats truly believe.
  
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  September 27, 2024 8:31am
- peterwn
  
  It is impossible to prevent all sewage spills unless ridiculous sums are spent on sewage systems and works. This is especially when trying to design for extreme weather events when stormwater invariably penetrates sewage systems. So some spills are inevitable and as long as the system is designed, operated and maintained to keep spills at a reasonable minimum, then prosecutions would not be warranted and these merely line lawyers’ pockets at ratepayers’ expense.
  
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  September 27, 2024 8:34am
Matt Long

This is odd, Transpower refuses compensation to businesses hit in Northland by the collapsed pylon farce, but seeks millions in compensation from their preferred contractor.
https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/09/26/transpower-seeks-millions-in-penalties-for-pylon-collapse/
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September 27, 2024 8:19am
- cmm
  
  I hope they use the irony to make new bolts.
  
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  September 27, 2024 8:47am
  - Paulus
    
    No stop some silly bastard Contractor from having any common sense and with staff with no education.
    Remember this is Northland.
    The Contractors and their Insurers should pay !
    They were Insured were they not ?
    
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    September 27, 2024 2:25pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  What was going on inside the head of the idiot who removed the nuts from 3 of the baseplates? Unsupervised does not matter.
  Common sense is not that common anymore.
  
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  September 27, 2024 8:53am
  - RoboRob
    
    Apparently it was standard procedure and had been done before despite warnings. Transpower knew it was happening but didn’t take action. Heads should roll (a fine is stupid as it would be transferring tax payer money for Trastpower to the government). There should be financial reparation for those effected up north.
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:24am
  - cmm
    
    “What was going on inside the head of the idiot who removed the nuts from 3 of the baseplates? ”
    
    A) She’ll be right.
    B) If I do this a bit quicker I can knock off for smoko sooner.
    C) If I hold the spanner this way it will look better on the Tiktok video.
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:36am
  - MCōs
    
    By the sounds of things that’s been common practice for these blokes and if the cables they’re supporting are in a straight line with the adjacent pylons it probably doesn’t matter much
    But this one was at a change in direction as I recall from the photos so there is no support from each side if the wind is blowing the wrong way.
    Apart from that all these blokes are probably on minimum wages and rushing round to get on to finish their quota or whatever
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:43am
    - peterwn
      
      And their supervisor was not supervising them. He was doing something else at the time.
      I once had to manage work which was done by a different group within our organisation. I had issues such as so much travel being booked to a job that would get you to the Moon and back. The group manager resigned and was replaced by an old mate of a senior manager who had no knowledge or experience of the electrical industry, safety requirements etc. He was allowing labourer leading hands to liven electricity cables etc. Fortunately the only fatality was a hedgehog who poked his head in the bare end of a cable that had been improperly livened. I told my boss that if it were an outside contracting group I would declare them not suitable to be awarded contracts. My boss said that would cause a stir and I lamely responded ‘I know’. But I had made the point in case real trouble happened.
      
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      September 27, 2024 10:13am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Apart from that all these blokes are ~~probably on minimum wages and rushing round to get on to finish their quota or whatever~~ thick.
      
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      September 27, 2024 11:42am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Further reading and photos I see there are 8 nuts on each baseplate.
    The item I read said procedure was to remove one nut and the square flat washer, sandblast, paint, and fit a new washer and net nut. One at a time, not remove 24 nuts!
    
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    September 27, 2024 10:36am
    - RalphT
      
      28, Steve. 24 on the pylons and 4 posing as workmen
      
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      September 27, 2024 10:49am
  - Taieri
    
    What was going on inside the head of the idiot who removed the nuts from 3 of the baseplates?
    ———
    
    Nothing.
    His head was just a place to put the hard-hat on.
    
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    September 27, 2024 12:02pm
- Bobba Fret
  
  Have Oxemon made a claim on their public liability insurance yet as surely, they are clearly liable for the tower falling over.
  Transpower should be putting the hard word on them and possibly looking at changing contractors.
  
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  September 27, 2024 10:32am
Clyde

So the Hastings Council decides by way of the casting vote of the Mayor to pay unelected youth Councillors to attend meetings and to vote. I was under the impression that in the case of a casting vote that the vote went to maintain the status quo. But it seems not in the “progressive” place of Hastings.
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September 27, 2024 8:20am
- pdm
  
  Clyde I have 3 posts on this rort over at No Minister since Wednesday.
  https://nominister.wordpress.com/
  
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  September 27, 2024 8:57am
- sirknz
  
  The gender split on this vote was very telling.
  
  I would bet that the one male councillor who voted ‘yes’ probably likes his flags with rainbows.
  
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  September 27, 2024 9:37am
- kowtow
  
  Constitution in danger .
  
  Principles of democracy deliberately , willfully denied.
  
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  September 27, 2024 10:56am
Yvette

Up-coming Treaty Bill
In the up-coming legislation regarding the Treaty ‘principles’, will mention of any future referendum indicate the outline or scope of a question such a referendum would ask – that being the stated reason for introducing the bill.
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September 27, 2024 8:35am
Pope Punctilious II

“Maori students less likely to achieve university entrance” proclaims RNZ. Yet reading carefully, we learn that a new study shows that Pasifika students are MORE likely to achieve UE than white students, when socio-economic level and other confounding factors are accounted for by multiple regression. Surely that’s what the headline should read, because that’s the real news.

Like most other NZ tertiary educational institutions, my employer is engaged in a vigorous effort to “dismantle systemic racism”. And we quite regularly hear claims that our education system is systemically racist.

I wonder if journalists will ask activists what they make of this new finding. How do you reconcile claims of “systemic racism” with the evidence that Pasifika (and Asian) students are more likely to achieve UE than white students from similar family circumstances?
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September 27, 2024 8:37am
- cmm
  
  Shut up and keep beating whitey.
  
  I expect there is limited point in trying to harvest “Pacifika guilt” or “Asian guilt”.
  
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  September 27, 2024 9:37am
- sirknz
  
  Clearly this is still racist because Maori are most affected…
  
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  September 27, 2024 9:39am
  - imalwaysright
    
    These maori activists should remember how dire was the state of their ancestors when the settlers arrived.
    Since then, their population has increased tenfold, their life expectancy has doubled, and their wealth is greater than most in the rest of the world.
    Perhaps they should be remembering the settlers with a sense of fondness rather than hatred.
    
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    September 27, 2024 10:42am
I remember when

ECan worst council for consents on time: Northern Outlook.
Canterbury’s regional council processed 26% of resource consent applications within the statutory time frame in 2023/4, significantly below the target of 95%.
This was down on 2022/3 when 35% of resource consent decisions were processed on time.

Always good to see where it is possible to improve.
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September 27, 2024 8:45am
Scooter

Listening to this interesting interview on the Platform about child poverty and abuse (and the story of Lillybing) got me thinking about the reasons why Maori seem over represented. Most seem to farm their kids out to extended family aunts/uncles etc. Maybe they resent this imposition and care less for the kids. Others are killed by a boyfriend. Some like Malakai went to a Maori friend when his family weren’t given the chance to take him. Also as mentioned in the interview many of these children wouldn’t have been born had it not been for NZ’s generous welfare state, IE paying women to breed. In the end what should be a good thing for a child to be raised by the whole family/”village” is probably what’s killing them.

https://theplatform.kiwi/podcasts/episode/lindsay-mitchell-on-child-poverty-in-new-zealand
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September 27, 2024 8:56am
- I remember when
  
  Scooter:
  How much has drug use contributed to the situation?
  
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  September 27, 2024 9:36am
  - Scooter
    
    No doubt it would have exacerbated the problem, now it would be a major reason, meth etc.
    
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    September 27, 2024 9:54am
Surely Knott

Nz prescribing puberty blockers at a rate of 7 times that of other countries!!! But why? What was the governments guidance and advice to doctors? What makes Nz so susceptible to bandwagon on these trend ideas – eg extreme covid response, gender ideology? Do doctors feel like they can voice opposition or will they be cancelled or lose their licence? Is it because we don’t have any oppositional or diversity in our media? Is it because we are a small isolate island nation?
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September 27, 2024 8:58am
- Notsofast
  
  I just read this detailed explanation, that also refers to the vast cost to pharmac.
  Any other child abuse of this kind would have people before a court of law.
  
  https://www.sciencemediacentre.co.nz/2024/09/27/puberty-blocker-prescribing-rates-in-nz-expert-reaction/
  
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  September 27, 2024 12:29pm
Grunter

Trump has painted Ukraine as a country in ruins outside its capital, Kyiv, short on soldiers and losing population to war deaths and neighboring countries. He questioned whether the country has any bargaining chips left to negotiate an end to the war.

“Any deal — the worst deal — would’ve been better than what we have now,” Trump said. “If they made a bad deal it would’ve been much better. They would’ve given up a little bit and everybody would be living and every building would be built and every tower would be aging for another 2,000 years.”

Wow – at last some honesty of what the realities are. Zelensky the Netflix actor, and UK clownman Boris Johnston should be hung & quartered for ripping up the April 2022 agreement.
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September 27, 2024 9:02am
- john1234
  
  Because appeasement has always worked well, eh?
  
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  September 27, 2024 9:19am
  - MCōs
    
    Any sort of arrangement whereby Russia acquires even more of Ukraine is a victory to Russia who have already taken over Crimea and other bits of Ukraine
    Putin ain’t going to live forever, but someone else his type will come along.
    Russians love a strongman
    
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    September 27, 2024 11:58am
    - RoboRob
      
      The alternative to a peace treaty is either outright victory for Russia or Ukraine. Which do you think is the more likely?
      
      People need to stop pretending that Ukraine is going to win this thing.
      
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      September 27, 2024 1:20pm
    - Graeme Hall
      
      Tell Helen Clark. She is looking for a command economy to run.
      
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      September 27, 2024 1:57pm
  - rouppe
    
    Exactly. Would have been 500 miles this time, 500 miles next time and by 2050 Ukraine would be half gone
    
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    September 27, 2024 12:40pm
- RoboRob
  
  This is why Zelensky is in the US (foolishly) campaigning for Harris. He needs Harris to win to keep his funds rolling in. The problem is that even if she does win, do we think Reps will look favourably on his actions? The house needs to vote in the spending bills, if the Reps win that will be harder.
  
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  September 27, 2024 9:29am
- kowtow
  
  What about the drawing ?
  
  1 2
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  September 27, 2024 10:58am
- NothingLeft
  
  The west stops Russian hegemonic ambitions in Ukraine, or fights the sequel war in 5-10 years closer to Europe.
  
  Ukraine population has dropped from about 40million to high 20’s since start of war due to emmigration.
  
  They can still win if it they can attrit Russians without losing so many troops. They need a large supply of long range attack weapons to hit military and infrastructure targets in Russia and front lines from beyond artillery + glide bomb range, or smart AI FPV drones that can take out Russian troops with operators at a safe distance (this tech is in testing, but needs to be developed further and rolled out at large scale). High volumes of glide bombs and long distance drones would be game changing.
  
  Russia is getting severely depleted as well, their soviet weapons stocks are almost all gone (and what is left is mostly garbage).
  
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  September 27, 2024 11:57am
Chuck Bird

This is a disgrace. I wonder if minors are getting there without their parents’ consent.

Puberty blocker use in New Zealand far higher than similar countries – study
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/puberty-blocker-use-in-new-zealand-far-higher-than-similar-countries-study/DNZGTK6CSFE5RK76ZOB47STJ2M

[ Mod – link fixed]
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September 27, 2024 9:05am
- Jack5
  
  Does this spell trouble for Matt Doocey, Associate Minister of Health and Minister for Youth?
  
  Doocey worked at the Gender Identity Service at the Tavistock Clinic in the UK, closed down in March after a review commissioned by the British National Health Service.
  
  Nine thousand children were treated at the clinic.
  
  If you want the background:
  
  From one of Britain’s leading Left-wing publications:
  
  https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2024/03/inside-the-collapse-of-the-tavistock-centre
  
  The final report of the Cass review:
  
  https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/
  
  From a gay web site:
  
  https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/04/10/cass-report-five-key-takeaways/#page/6
  
  From NZ’s Basset-Brash-Hyde web site:
  
  https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/citizen-science-matt-doocey-doubles-down-on-trans-healthcare
  
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  September 27, 2024 10:52am
I remember when

Code of Integrity for Sport and Recreation Draft Code:
Includes –
Purpose: (2)
(a) Whanaungatanga, which includes fostering positive relationships, connections and a sense of community between participants, particularly for people who have been disadvantaged.

Surely, if you are achieving the first part of the purpose the disadvantaged add-on is unnecessary.
Word soup!

Is, in fact, the Code simply an over reaction to a relatively small number of outcomes largely suffered by professional sports.
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September 27, 2024 9:24am
sirknz

Does nobody else see the irony of the locals having a chimp out after the chimpanzees chimp out?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/famous-tool-using-chimpanzee-abducts-baby-from-mothers-arms-kills-her-in-violent-attack/RCFWKMD3JJHVZCBFT4UPWNW4SI/

A quote from the article, “It is similar behaviour to how chimps treat one another. If they are excited they cannot control their behaviour.” but I’m not 100% sure if they are referring to the chimpanzees…
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September 27, 2024 10:27am
Swifty

I owe Willie Jackson and the team at Radio Waatea an apology for my post yesterday.

I tuned in to Waatea at 7.30am and heard their rundown for this morning’s offerings.

And I quote:

“Kia Ora whanau, you’re tuned into Radio Waatea on this cold and wet Friday morning but boy have we got a great show lined up for you today.

First up at 8am we’ve got a new weekly show, The Milton Friedman Hour, where we have a number of guests who will show us all how Maori have and will continue to benefit from free and open exchange and when we look to government to intervene in our lives, it might sound attractive but almost always ends in tears and the great loss of your money.

At 9am we’ve got the first in a 50 episode series where each week we profile a successful Maori-owned business and how they’ve succeeded without any government help. We’ve got Willie Jackson heading this one up, as he’s started heaps of successful businesses, he hasn’t let colonisation stand in his way of making his millions.

At 10am, we start another new series where we look at the lives we used to live before Europeans arrived. Today’s episode is called ‘Dig for Victory’ and looks at the fact that when Europeans arrived in Aotearoa one of the first things they noticed was that all Maori lived in the immediate vicinity of heavily-fortified pa and we explore the reasons why we felt the need to do that.

And lastly on this morning’s schedule we’ve got our regular talk-back hour and today with a look at John Tamihere’s new show ‘Best Practice in Charities Management’, Mihi Forbes takes us through the speeches of the Chiefs who refused to sign at Waitangi, and the reasons for not signing (boy are there a few surprises in there!) and lastly we’ve got a sneak peak into Margaret Mutu’s latest research study titled ‘Why organising societies along racial lines nearly always results in civil war – a study into shooting yourself in the foot.’

So there we have it whanau, a great show lined up for today. Oh, and a weather forecast has just come to hand, it’s raining in the North and it’s raining in the South, so you buggers in the middle may as well stay at home ‘cause it’s no bloody good anywhere else!”

Again, my apologies to Willie and team, my understanding of what Radio Waatea pumps out was clearly incorrect and I will know better in future.
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September 27, 2024 11:08am
- greybeard
  
  Thanks Swifty, one of your best.
  
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  September 27, 2024 1:09pm
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHRFt427vk4
Gender Confusion | Pauline Hanson’s Please Explain.
Good morning everyone! The “Please Explain” team has been hard at work on two exciting projects this week.

First, we’re thrilled to re-release “Gender Confusion.” Originally, this episode didn’t get the attention it deserved due to some behind-the-scenes hiccups, but we’ve sorted everything out! We wanted to make sure you didn’t miss this one, so here it is, ready for its proper debut.

Second, we’re putting the finishing touches on a special video about how voting works in Queensland state elections. It’s been a busy week, but we can’t wait to share both of these with you!
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September 27, 2024 11:20am
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiGoTZSwEdA
Hitler’s Springfield Ohio Restaurant.
They’re eating the Dogs at Hitler’s new Springfield Ohio Restaurant . Hitler Parody
Transcript. [No mention of Poodle Surprise, or Pomeranian Stir Fry.]
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September 27, 2024 11:21am
Jack5

A blow for South Canterbury: six hundred jobs to go as the Smithfield meat works closes.

A strange economy: export-related jobs go in meat processing and, further north, in the timber industry.

This just after Labour in its colossal immigration police brought in scores of thousands of people to fill jobs, jobs overwhelmingly in service industries.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350431061/hundreds-jobs-go-timaru-meatworks-plant-under-new-proposal

However, perhaps some displaced South Canterbury workers can move south to work at Alliance’s Southland plant?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/03/unskilled-migrants-employed-at-southland-meat-works-union-wants-industry-wide-probe.html
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September 27, 2024 11:47am
- Ghost
  
  It was expected. I was listening to a farmer saying alliance was finically fucked several months ago. That they’d reduced the payouts, making the farmers increase their shares to be able to send livestock in. She thought either alliance would sell out to the Chinese or go under
  
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  September 27, 2024 11:58am
  - Jack5
    
    Alliance Group reported a bottom-line loss of $66 million for the year ended September 2023.
    
    Alliance is a co-operative, but the transition of the Dunedin-based meat co-operative PPCS to Silver Fern Farms shows how a big overseas investor can be brought into partnership with a co-operative.
    
    Ten years ago a subsidiary of the Shanghai firm Bright Food bought half of PPCS. (Bright Food had taken a 51 per cent stake in the NZ dairy producer Synlait a few years earlier).
    
    PPCS became Silver Fern Farms.
    
    Silver Fern Farms Co-operative Ltd describes itself on its web site as owning “50 per cent of Silver Fern Farms Ltd.” The Companies Registry confirms the co-operative and the Chinese firm share ownership 50:50.
    
    Silver Fern Farms Ltd reported a bottom-line loss of $23.39 million for the year ended December 31, 2023.
    
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    September 27, 2024 12:33pm
  - MCōs
    
    That works in Timaru is a 130+yrs old and by the sounds costing a fortune to keep going
    I used to go to school in Timaru and some mates got really well paid jobs there during the summer holidays.
    Guys left school at 15 to work there with their dads and did alright while the meat prices were sailing high and the unions were strong
    When the really good times subsided they were trapped without any sort of academic qualification
    The waterfront was another lucrative place to work
    
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    September 27, 2024 1:12pm
- NothingLeft
  
  We are close to the point (no more than 5 years) where AI controlled robots and other automation will automate most meat processing jobs.
  
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  September 27, 2024 12:04pm
  - cmm
    
    While it might be hard to actually eliminate people entirely, there are certainly a lot of jobs that can be eliminated or at least reduced with technology.
    
    Robotics engineers have been looking at carcass processing for a very long time. When I lived in Auckland (1992-1995) I knew a guy who had worked on the robotic challenges of breaking down a sheep.
    
    The fish processing industry has been using robotics for countless years. Mammals are a bit more complex but it is something that can be achieved.
    
    AI or not, technology has mainly been taking away low end jobs and will continue to do so. The very worst thing we can be doing is importing a lot of low IQ people to compete in a space that is going away.
    
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    September 27, 2024 12:20pm
    - Jack5
      
      Scott Technology, an old Dunedin engineering company, now in automation equipment, is an international leader in robot work in meat processing.
      
      Scott is now 53 per cent owned by JBS SA, of Brazil, the world’s biggest meat processing company.
      
      https://scottautomation.com/en/products/meat
      
      https://scottautomation.com/en/products/meat
      
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      September 27, 2024 12:52pm
    - Swifty
      
      Our own Scott Technology are players in this area.
      
      https://scottautomation.com/en/products/meat?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_V-sULMT74qciT839pgjzVc4MYZ&gclid=Cj0KCQjwjNS3BhChARIsAOxBM6pMAiZCx1gIjuF-er6-FGmk8m9WbF_DyNlEVZ7rmZgr2jt3_zriPgoaAuA5EALw_wcB
      
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      September 27, 2024 1:04pm
    - cmm
      
      Thanks Jack and Swifty.
      Yup, I have known of Scott for a very long time but I hadn’t realised they’d made this amount of progress recently.
      No doubt this is just the thin end of the wedge.
      Scott really are world leaders. Not world class – way ahead of that – world leaders.
      
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      September 27, 2024 1:17pm
  - Taieri
    
    where AI controlled robots and other automation will automate most meat processing jobs
    ———–
    
    That’s what Pete Hodgson told us in 2017 about the autonomous cars taking people to the new Dunedin hospital. 7 years later there are no autonomous cars and no hospital by the looks of it.
    
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    September 27, 2024 1:55pm
- MCōs
  
  Labour didn’t bring the workers in in this or any case, Alliance did and by the sounds at the time it was because they couldn’t fill the positions with locals.
  Someone pulled the wool over someone else’s eyes
  That article was written a year and a half ago.
  
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  September 27, 2024 12:25pm
  - Jack5
    
    Cossie, but it sounds as though there was a migration rort going on, but the Alliance was taking care of them (second link below):
    
    https://www.farmersweekly.co.nz/news/union-flags-concerns-about-meat-industry-migrant-system/
    
    AND
    
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/130940273/house-hunting-sorted-for-meat-companys-migrant-workers
    
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    September 27, 2024 12:45pm
    - Ghost
      
      I know an immigrant that was told to work in the meat works for a year to improve their English before moving into health. They were a senior xray technican.
      
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      September 27, 2024 1:14pm
Surely Knott

The Ministry of Health Mortality Data weekly covid deaths. What’s going on? They have 2 columns 1 is within 28 days of a test, one is attributable to covid.

Deaths Attributable to covid are:

2020 = 26 deaths
2021 = 24 deaths
2022 = 2,757 deaths
2023 = 1033 deaths
2024 = 586 deaths year to date

In 2020 14 of the 26 deaths were in April presumably the Rosewood Retirement home issues.
Hardly anyone died in 2020 or 2021 of covid . Respiratory deaths weren’t much different considering influenza pneumonia was down.
What the heck happened in 2022?! 2757 deaths attributable to covid. . According to this Ministry data this winter we were having between 20 and 30 covid deaths a week. Hard to tally this statistically as the mortality data hub only has other causes of death listed until 2021.

We were having media banners telling us people were dying of covid when they weren’t. And now they are and there is silence.

https://github.com/minhealthnz/nz-covid-data/blob/main/cases/weekly-deaths.csv
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September 27, 2024 12:28pm
- cmm
  
  It’s all bullshit until there’s a a useful definition of “died from” vs “died with”.
  
  Not a single one of those Rosewood residents “died from” covid.
  
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  September 27, 2024 1:20pm
  - Surely Knott
    
    They have separated the columns. Died within 28 days of a test. And Deaths attributable to covid. Eg. Died from Covid. The data above is the number the MOH is saying died from Covid.
    
    Agree about the retirement home deaths.
    
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    September 27, 2024 2:22pm
- Inandout
  
  SK, there is a regular ad from Pfizer that mentions ‘you may have forgotten that Covid is still around’. It is of course straight out product pushing.
  
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  September 27, 2024 1:39pm
- mandk
  
  Those numbers can’t possibly be correct.
  
  The country was locked down and people were encouraged, if not coerced, into taking the vaxx to stop covid happening.
  
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  September 27, 2024 2:12pm
- NothingLeft
  
  700 people a week die in NZ. About 15-20 per week died from flu and pneumonia prior to covid – mostly those with serious commorbities that put them at deaths door anyway. So now it’s covid rather than flu killing them.
  
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  September 27, 2024 3:11pm
cmm

There are many non-scientists here that struggle with navigating the trust (or not) due to science and scientists.

Here’s a scientist addressing this.

Pretty interesting that replication, one of the most fundamental parts of Good Science, is rarely funded by funding institutions. In other words these institutions are interested in quantity rather than quality. I believe our funding bodies such as Marsden have this problem too.

I would far rather have less science, but to higher quality standards. That’s the stuff that actual helps humanity in the long term.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygC5Pk4lYzk
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September 27, 2024 1:09pm
surfing

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/timaru-meatworks-shutdown-alliance-proposes-smithfield-closure-by-years-end/R7VPPYY7JNHTFNMLDSGHWEMMEQ/

If I understand correctly, this is excellent news for NZ.

The shutdown is due to land use change, ie, people being paid to convert land from co2 belching animals to trees.

Now the world has been saved, what next?
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September 27, 2024 1:10pm
Taieri

Now the world has been saved, what next?
————

Pine cones for dinner. Medium-rare.
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September 27, 2024 1:56pm
Swifty

More far-left propaganda from RNZ and of highly dubious accuracy and once again no alternate views published on gender pay gaps nor the downsides of the extortionate Fair Pay legislation.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/529215/it-will-take-almost-100-years-to-close-gender-pay-gap-at-current-rate

Good on you RNZ, at least you’re consistent and open in your bias and your betrayal of your public broadcasting remit.
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September 27, 2024 1:57pm
- cmm
  
  I put it to you that in 100 years the Western liberalism that has peaked in this insanity will be gone.
  
  Within 50 years we expect France and many other parts of Europe to be majority Muslim. I don’t think they’re too worried about gender pay gaps and such.
  
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  September 27, 2024 3:21pm
Pope Punctilious II

“Experts” outraged by government directive to public services to deliver on need, not race. “Unscientific and dangerous!”, apparently. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/govt-directive-to-public-services-to-deliver-on-need-not-race-unscientific-and-dangerous-researchers-say/DGIFU3SWMZFAHMWQDCJJE47BRA/
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September 27, 2024 3:17pm

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