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September 11, 2024 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 11 September 2024

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General Debate

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slightlyrighty

I see that TVNZ is breathlessly reporting the state of the Wellington Economy, and blaming the State Sector job cuts as the main factor.

That’s bull.

in 2017, there were 48000 Civil servants, and the economy was doing just fine in Wellington.

by 2023, Labour had increased this number to 63000.

To date, there have been 6500 job cuts so we are still 9000 jobs above the 2017 level, when Wellington was doing better than it is now.

In 2003, when Wellington was absolutely pumping!, we had 33,000 public servants.

but in 2010, we elected our first Green Mayor, and we have gone down the toilet ever since.
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September 11, 2024 8:07am
- RoboRob
  
  I would love to blame the Greens and the council, and I am sure they are a big part of it but there is a lot more to the job cuts then just the total number.
  
  Many of the public servants who remain employed are, rightly, concerned about their future employment. When people have an uncertain future, no matter how good the money is at the moment, they tend to tighten up their spending. Eating and drunking out are often easy places to do so.
  
  Add to this that the public service is a huge adopter of working from home and no wonder that the corporate heart of wellington is less frequented.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:09am
- Stellaboxer
  
  The reason we are where we are is the response to Covid. Everyone is happy to memory hole the whole thing because all the main parties, all or most of the media and a large percentage of the population were complicit or even calling for more.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:19am
- the deity formerly known as nigel6888
  
  Hey, Comrade, don’t let facts and evidence spoil the narrative.
  
  Council debt also rose by $1.8bn and rates by nearly 50%
  
  Feel the quality of services! So much investment in the future of our city.
  
  In fact its working so well, the Mayor is now proposing to subsidise the businesses that will be hammered by the Golden Mile fiasco. It’s like a perpetual motion machine!
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:23am
- cmm
  
  I suspect there are multiple factors at play:
  
  * general consumer confidence has gone down a lot. People are less likely to spend up.
  * household costs have gone up, less cash to flash.
  * COVID changed a lot of people’s habits – more entertain themselves at home.
  * more vagrants etc make the entertainment district less appealing.
  
  Death by a thousand cuts.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:41am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Yes it is multiple factors. Higher interest rates would have hit Wellington borrowers buying at the height of the Adrian Orr covid housing bubble. First thing to cut. Coffees and brioche from expensive Wellington eateries. Next thing. $15 glasses of wine on Friday night drinks with work colleagues.
    
    Stupid journalists.
    
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    September 11, 2024 9:49am
    - kowtow
      
      ‘Stupid journalists’
      
      They’re not journalists , they are activists seeking to guide stupid people’s thinking against the current govt.
      
      Any idiot could tell the immediate issue is the Ardern regime’s knee jerk , panicked reaction to Wuflu.
      Lockdown , wfh , low interest rates , massive regime spending , inflation and a cost of living crisis.
      Plus as you say moving the dregs into city centre housing etc
      
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      September 11, 2024 9:55am
  - sherp
    
    I run a small owner operator business in christchurch and my work slowed right down the 12 months but as soon as intrest rates lifted last month my business is booming… I guess people have been putting off work around the home for a while and now have a bit if cash to spend but they’re not spending it on expensive consumables
    
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    September 11, 2024 10:01am
- mandk
  
  I thought it was also the case that a fair number of those 6,500 jobs cut were in unfilled vacancies.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:45am
  - Paulus
    
    From what I hear from within Wellington Public Servants is that many of those made redundant were the wrong people to lose their jobs – politically and socially so !
    
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    September 11, 2024 11:54am
    - mandk
      
      Most probably true.
      
      People with the skills and attitude necessary to find alternative employment will have taken the redundancy money and moved on.
      
      Those remaining will be those less able to compete in the wider labour market.
      
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      September 11, 2024 1:16pm
      - John Loveridge
        
        That was the case last year during a round of redundancies at the Selwyn District Council. A bunch of practical, knowledgeable people in areas like property maintenance were shown the door, and middle managers, typically seat-bound middle-aged women, nominally took over their responsibilities. This has led to increased reliance on costly contractors, and more managers on generous salaries, none of whom seem to know what they’re doing. If saving money was the aim, it has been a farce, and rates still went up 15%.
        
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        September 11, 2024 3:08pm
    - Pineapple Lumps
      
      But I’m sure the improved the diversity and equity criteria!
      
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      September 11, 2024 6:09pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  Rates through the roof, plus higher interest rates. Sucks a lot of money out of the discretionary spend.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:47am
  - sirknz
    
    That’s been my experience and I don’t live in Wellington. I’ve even had to cut back my beer consumption to almost zero. the only joys in life now is my coffee at home in the morning and the little one talking away to us.
    
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    September 11, 2024 10:38am
Grunter

The main stream propaganda entity (CNN), as expected, are finally reporting what is actually happening in Ukraine. That just means they have been given the heads up that something significant is about to happen soon.

None of this is good news for Ukraine, apart from the likelihood that the days of the evil Zelensky are numbered. Let’s hope they ditch him and now attempt to sort out some sort of future with Russia.

If Ukraine carry on fighting then Russia will simply push them all the way back to the Polish border.

CNN reports
https://search.app/Xxw86RP4Ymo8yXzTA
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September 11, 2024 8:10am
- RoboRob
  
  Ignoring your comments about Zelensky, you are right with regards to CNN.
  
  The legacy US media, especially CNN, seem to get their talking points from the Dem white house. If the legacy media start reporting that things are not well in Ukraine that’s a sure sign that an announcement is coming from the Whitehouse. It could be Biden / Kamala want to massively boost support for Ukraine or, more likely, they are looking for an out.
  
  Either way it is surprising as I would not have expected any major changes between now and the election. If changes are coming its either because the Ukraine is desperate or its politically advantageous. Will be interesting either way.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:18am
- kowtow
  
  FFS the Putin regime can’t even protect its own borders .
  And the thug is sacrificing his already poor economy and poor people on his Oligarch altar.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:29am
- notreadyet
  
  I read on Gates to Vienna that there had been a Russian precision lethal missile strike deep into Ukraine on a training base with many NATO staff being taken out. A lot of Seeds training locals in the use of an AWAK plane they had donated along with many locals working on Drone tech. Reports of 100s killed and the wounded being flown west to Hospitals .
  Probably a retaliation hit for Ukraine’s recent efforts.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:35am
- Burtland
  
  3 days to Kiev – making russia great again
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:53am
- imalwaysright
  
  G
  Correct. Maybe it would be beneficial for Kamala for Ukraine to be either over or escalated. Its looking a bit stale and the dwarf is starting to look like one of those child actors to whom puberty wasn’t kind.
  
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  September 11, 2024 10:00am
- NothingLeft
  
  There’s suggestion that the west is finally going to OK Ukraine using longer range western weapons like Atacms and large cruise missiles to target Russian military in Russia.
  
  Ukraine long distance strike drones production has also ramped up a lot, with frequent strikes on Moscow now occurring.
  
  Ukraine are clearly struggling to maintain their fighting strength too, with no answer to growing Russian use of glide bombs. But at same time Russian army is looking badly depleted as well, with untrained and unmotivated and unloved fighters lacking effective weaponry.
  
  Feels like this war is nearing an end one way or another.
  
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  September 11, 2024 11:42am
- NoFax
  
  I see Grunter is still pushing for Russian Co-governance over Ukraine.
  
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  September 11, 2024 2:45pm
peterwn

So the Union called for a two Hour strike for Woolworths staff yesterday and headlines seemed to imply that most staff walked off.
However no Woolworths store seemed to have to closed or seemed unduly congested. I looked on Google News to get some idea of the numbers that went on strike. All I could come up with was a local news source with a photo of 13 staff on strike outside Alexandra (Central Otago) Woolworths. That probably represents 10 to 20% staff, hardly the number the union and media would like to think went on strike.I doubt that management or shareholders (WOW.AU) lost any sleep over this.
Strike seemed a fizzer.
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September 11, 2024 8:13am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Woolworths Glenfield mall was working fine. Down in the carpark I did see a group of people standing around doing nothing. Strikers I would say. However, they were people I do not see in the store. They were not checkout operators or grocery pickers.
  Admin I guess.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:04am
- MCōs
  
  I remember many years ago when pay talks came around in the office I was working one of the more senior engineers said to me that they always say we’re going through a period of retrenchment
  So what do Woolworths say
  “In the current challenging economic environment . . . . “
  Sure, it’s not a high skill occupation, but neither is it well paid and it’s becoming more and more dangerous and it seems to be a profitable business
  https://pmn.co.nz/read/business/that-is-criminal-why-woolworths-workers-are-walking-off-the-job-today
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:23am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Media hiding the assassination story by ignoring it.
Heaven forbid the Secret Service corruption be exposed.

https://politicalactionalerts.com/why-the-mainstream-media-is-hiding-the-trump-assassination-story/
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September 11, 2024 8:18am
- Ghost
  
  No, msm is still reporting on it. You need better sources than your usual junk sites.
  
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  September 11, 2024 8:58am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    OK. I will try CNN and MSNBC.
    Maybe TV1? Maybe just listen to red radio?
    Next you will be telling me the Secret Service are not corrupt. Why were the most useless of them on Trump’s detail, and the good ones sent to protect Jill Biden at her meeting?
    
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    September 11, 2024 9:09am
    - RoboRob
      
      Dont bother with CNN, MSNBC or TV1 none of them are covering this to any degree.
      
      I just checked cnn.com and a search for ‘Assassination’ returns zero trump related results on the first two pages. I dont thing there was a recent assassination attempt in the US.
      
      Searching for secret service, there is one story (11/09) of an official retiring. The next most recent story was Aug 24th. Not exactly wall to wall coverage is it 🙂
      
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      September 11, 2024 9:24am
      - Ghost
        
        Cnn’s last article was 29 August. No new details have come out since. Cnn ran a lot of stories on the shooting for a whole after it
        
        https://edition.cnn.com/2024/08/28/politics/fbi-gun-photos-trump-shooting/index.html
        
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        September 11, 2024 10:11am
      - Drone
        
        RoboRob, Trump’s assasination attempt is old news, a cut ear is hardly a heart transplant operation. Many more things have happened in the US since the attempt, only Steve O is fixated on it.
        
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        September 11, 2024 10:46am
      - RoboRob
        
        @Ghost
        
        Page 22 of results if you enter the keyword assassination.
        
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        September 11, 2024 11:03am
      - Ghost
        
        The article I posted was the first in a search of cnn through Google. The claim msm are not reporting is false, shown by the links to the thread. When new information is released its reported on. If trump didn’t survive it would still be a major story, but he survived. The shooter didn’t. There isn’t much more to report on except the conspiracy theories some nutjobs are pushing. I saw one fruitcake claiming a photographer shot trump and he had video evidence. Funny thing, it showed nothing.
        
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        September 11, 2024 11:28am
    - Ghost
      
      Here’s a 10 seconds search
      
      https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/melania-trump-questions-security-failure-donald-trump-assassination/story?id=113551999
      
      https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/politics/grassley-releases-new-details-of-iran-backed-assassination-plots-against-trump-biden-and-others/ar-AA1q4u4C?ocid=BingNewsVerp&PC=EMMX01
      
      https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/politics/grassley-releases-new-details-of-iran-backed-assassination-plots-against-trump-biden-and-others/ar-AA1q4u4C?ocid=BingNewsVerp&PC=EMMX01
      
      https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/usss-assistant-director-asked-to-retire-over-butler-assassination-attempt-on-trump/ar-AA1qk9JS?ocid=BingNewsVerp
      
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      September 11, 2024 9:28am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        The links I get come to me by email, not searches.
        I have no reason to believe they are ‘junk.’
        
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        September 11, 2024 9:41am
      - Ghost
        
        So you claim msm isn’t still reporting on it when you can’t be bothered to even look.
        
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        September 11, 2024 9:47am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Politicalactionalerts made the claim, not me.
        I shared the link from my email.
        
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        September 11, 2024 9:52am
      - Ghost
        
        Yeah we know Steve, you constantly post fake rubbish because you don’t bother to take a moment to check it
        
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        September 11, 2024 11:09am
  - Stellaboxer
    
    Yeah ghost it’s all over the news that the thorn in the side of the American political establishment had an attempt on his life carried out under the noses of the security service from possibly the most prime shooting platform in the immediate area even after they had the would be assassin clearly pointed out to them. Lone wolf of course just like Oswald and Ruby. The fact that it would of gotten the Democratic Party out of the corner it has painted itself into was pure coincidence. Not at all the biggest story of the century because it’s Trump and the “ far right “ that are the biggest threat to US democracy Biden said so
    
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    September 11, 2024 9:29am
    - Ghost
      
      The msm are still reporting on it
      
      Media and politicians came out condemning it.
      
      You aren’t going to get constant coverage on it, you got that for a while after it happened. Trump got an ouchie on the ear, tgr shooter got a bigger ouchie through the head. There is bugger all to report on now. But as details are released they’re reported on. Republicans calling for resignations are reported on. Even morons spreading conspiracy theories are reported on. There was only one shooter, evidence of that is trump is still alive.
      
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      September 11, 2024 10:06am
      - Stellaboxer
        
        I replied to this comment ghost but seems to have disappeared. Can’t be bothered to repeat it as I’m sure you’re not one to be swayed in your opinions anyway.
        
        [Mod – there have been no further comments from you]
        
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        September 11, 2024 12:07pm
Biscuit

US Presidential Debate today…

I will watch but will, as always, expect to be UNDERwhelmed.

Now, tell the truth, people, have any of you EVER said ‘My God, I was wrong all along. I’m changing from Candidate X to Candidate Y’ as a result of a debate?
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September 11, 2024 8:18am
- pdm
  
  Aaahh Biscuit is this a reverse of the Oscars where you and your mates sit back, supping champagne and get waited on by willing wenches?
  
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  September 11, 2024 8:23am
  - Biscuit
    
    pdm, you should know by now that the Oscars sees Yours Truly waiting on the ‘wenches’.
    
    Boy, can they sit back, sup champagne and expect mucho waiting on.
    
    I’d complain but…
    
    Oh, and I see that apart from the Debate today also sees Wellington play Otago in Dunedin as a prelude to their bringing the Ranfurly Shield back to its spiritual home after they thump Tasman on Sunday…
    
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    September 11, 2024 8:34am
    - pdm
      
      `Spiritual Home’ for the Ranfurly Shield.
      
      Dream on.
      
      Hawkes Bay hold said Shield for longer in one tenure when they get their hands on it than Wellington has ever held it in total since the Shield was gifted to NZ Rugby.
      
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      September 11, 2024 8:40am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        I always thought it belonged in the Waikato cabinet.
        
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        September 11, 2024 10:00am
    - hookerphil
      
      Many years ago – 1984 – approx – I spent a good 20-30 minutes talking with Mick Bremner – Leap Year All Black 1952 1956 1960 in Wellington where he then lived about all things rugby. I remember clearly Mick said the trouble with Wellington rugby was that they had never had a Shield era and learnt how to unify behind it.
      40 years later and nothing appears too have changed.
      I see he is still alive and 94 years old. I doubt he will have changed his view. Go Tasman.
      
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      September 11, 2024 9:05am
- Nigel Kearney
  
  People seldom admit it, but they do change their minds. For many viewers it will be their first time hearing Harris attempt to express ideas verbally. That can only be good for Trump.
  
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  September 11, 2024 8:24am
  - slightlyrighty
    
    have you heard Trump try to express an idea verbally recently?
    
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    September 11, 2024 8:29am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Does it well, doesn’t he.
      
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      September 11, 2024 9:58am
    - NothingLeft
      
      He does ramble/bluster. But that can be safely priced in and discounted. He’s superficially annoying and off-putting to those who find car-salesman type bullshitting repugnant , but policy wise he’s a relatively known quantity who might at least shift the needle towards less authoritarian/fascistic govt
      
      To my and many other’s minds a far better option than Business as usual oligarchical / permanent bureaucratic state / corporate monopolist interests empty suit candidate Kamala
      
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      September 11, 2024 1:18pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    I promise to do everything I could have done but didn’t do because if I did I wouldn’t have to promise to do it, even though I could do it now, but don’t because I don’t know what to do otherwise I would have done it.
    KH.
    //
    
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    September 11, 2024 10:09am
    - sirknz
      
      You forgot the nervous laugh followed by “OK” every 4-7 words.
      
      Kamala Harris is such an inspirational orator…
      
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      September 11, 2024 10:48am
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Plus the spiel would have been started with “So”.
        
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        September 11, 2024 9:55pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    We’ll see. Harris has been doing a lot of intensive media/debate training for two months. Maybe she will perform OK (Old dog learns new tricks?)
    
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    September 11, 2024 11:46am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Megyn Kelly post match coverage (I personally couldn’t stomach watching either Harris or Trump). She’s apopleptic about the moderator bias (predictable as head of ABC is a personal friend of Kamala that introduced her to her husband), and sounds like it was a net win for Harris as a result:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cft5c6mE8k
      
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      September 11, 2024 3:21pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  Well clearly the answer to your question must be “yes” x several million. The recent Trump-Biden debate killed off Biden and will be remembered by historians as a very significant event in American political history.
  
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  September 11, 2024 8:27am
  - Biscuit
    
    Drat ya, Benedict, I’d forgotten that one!
    
    I shall blame being dazzled by the brilliant sunshine we have in Wellington today!
    
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    September 11, 2024 8:38am
    - pdm
      
      Biscuit it may have been the reflection off Greg O’Connor swimming in the Harbour that blinded you.
      
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      September 11, 2024 8:41am
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        Ha, yes. The story just begs for the obvious observation.
        
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        September 11, 2024 9:54am
      - Nobby2
        
        Or a reflection off all the shiny turds floating in the water.
        
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        September 11, 2024 11:17am
- Swifty
  
  Steve Todd can’t wait!
  
  😄
  
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  September 11, 2024 8:29am
  - Steve Todd
    
    And it was well worth the wait, Swifty.
    
    I’ve just spent about four hours watching some ‘post-match’ analyses. The only commentary I came across in support of Trump was The Megyn Kelly Show, where all Megyn could come up with was how she disliked Kamala’s facial expressions, mocking Trump, in response to Rich Lowry saying Trump was vague and repetitive.
    
    What an annihilation! You missed a great show, Swifty. Kamala was better than I could ever have hoped for, although, admittedly, far from perfect. For example, she didn’t answer the first question, and she didn’t say she would ban abortion in months seven, eight and nine.
    
    Trump was angry, scowling, and unhinged. In contrast, Kamala was articulate, and in-control. Just as Biden is not the man he was 12 years ago, nor is Trump the man he was eight years ago.
    
    I’ve checked out many clips since about 2:45PM. This is a good summary of the Trump disaster we witnessed this afternoon (Rachel Maddow, et al): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpRtNilzLSc [17:16].
    
    Doug and Kamala were euphoric at the ‘after-party’. One can only hope there is at least one more debate (perhaps on 2 or 9 October?).
    
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    September 11, 2024 7:58pm
    - Steve Todd
      
      Oops! I’ve just realised the Vice-Presidential debate is on Wed 2 Oct, our time. So, 9 or 16 October?
      
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      September 11, 2024 8:57pm
- Paulus
  
  But, But, the media have said that Kamala won the debate !
  
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  September 11, 2024 8:31am
  - NZer In Exile
    
    They will be very very depressed then very very unhinged if we get a Trump landslide.
    
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    September 11, 2024 9:57pm
- slightlyrighty
  
  Debates like this are aimed at the undecideds, and there will be a few.
  
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  September 11, 2024 8:31am
  - kowtow
    
    “Debates” like this are aimed at the networks’ own ratings .And dare any candidate not play the game they’d be crucified by the media for avoidance , which is ironic as Harris is now forced to do what her campaign has been actively avoiding , fronting up to the media , which the media thewmselves have barely said owt about.
    
    All the world’s a stage …..
    
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    September 11, 2024 9:33am
- cmm
  
  Biscuit: As BY says, the Biden debate a few months back was pivotal.
  But I think you are still generally correct. The Biden debate fiasco was not really due to the debate itself but rather just the scales falling from everyone’s eyes and people seeing Biden as a bumbling, weak frail man no longer up to the job.
  
  One of the biggest problems with a debate is that you actually need both sides to be relatively competent for the debate to generate anything interesting. If one side is way weaker than the other then the strong side has nothing to show their display their strength against.
  
  A strong man can’t display his strengths by arm wrestling with a baby.
  
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  September 11, 2024 8:36am
  - waikatosinger
    
    But if I need one of them to stack my woodpile, the spectacle would surely convince me not to pick the baby.
    
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    September 11, 2024 10:18am
- Grunter
  
  I predict that neither Harris nor Trump will mention the $35 Trillion Debt and the corresponding $1 Trillion in interest costs. The USA is now borrowing money to pay their interest bill.
  
  All the other policy debates will be interesting, but none really matter compared to the Debt doom spiral.
  
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  September 11, 2024 8:37am
  - cmm
    
    The debt (and continued spending) is really something that no politician wants to go near because no citizen wants to go near it either.
    
    They are now burning through an extra $1tn every 100 days – 10 billion a day or $30 per person per day.
    
    Ultimately that means, on average, $30 per person per day extra liquidity that fuels the American consumer lifestyle.
    
    Take a family of 4 – that’s $120 a day , or $40k a year, of extra money flowing through their bank accounts. That is a lot of luxury lifestyle for everyday Americans that they feel entitled to. Taking it away will feel like extreme hardship.
    
    Of course stopping the debt bleeding does not pay anything back or even cover the interest. To do that over a generation (25 years) would make the Great Depression look like a time of wealth.
    
    We all know how that pans out – war.
    
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    September 11, 2024 9:52am
  - NothingLeft
    
    yeah it’s fucking grim.
    
    The whole western economic party is coming to an end in next few years and it’s going to be absolutely brutal.
    
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    September 11, 2024 1:25pm
- My-Gumboot
  
  Heaps of people have, Joe after pushing, Bill, Hillary, Barack, Michelle, Chuck, Hakeem, not so sure about Nancy though.. Suckers, the lot of them.
  
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  September 11, 2024 8:55am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Treat the debate as a comedy show. The real moderator will be Trump!
  Harris’ rule demands:
  
  https://babylonbee.com/news/kamalas-7-debate-demands-revealed?
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:15am
  - PurplePen
    
    I was all set to find it might be entertaining and exciting to watch but the format is the same as the last one which for a few exceptional moments was as exciting as watching the proverbial dry.
    
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    September 11, 2024 10:27am
- RoboRob
  
  I can guarantee, regardless of the actual debate content the legacy media coverage will be…
  
  CNN, NBC, ABC, MSNBC, PBS etc
  1) Trump racist
  2) Trump sexist & misogynist
  3) Repeated Trump lies
  4) Kamala quirky and fun. Powerful black woman.
  
  p.s. Kamala’s ‘Let me speak’ tee shirts and mugs will be on sale before the debate ends. I suspect Trump will have ‘why let a crazy woman speak’ (or similar) tee shirts ready to go too.
  
  FOX
  1) Trump triumphant
  2) Trump embarrasses Kamila on policy
  
  (Sorry the fox ones are much harder to pick)
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:31am
- MCōs
  
  The last debate was exceptionally because Joe Biden was so bad.
  This one is obviously going to be a big win for Trump or Harris depending on your bias.
  Never in a million years is ole Steve going to say Steve won, for example.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:35am
- redeye
  
  Nate Silver, a favourite of this blog, now has Trump at 64.4% likely victor. Harris 35.3%.
  In my opinion Trump lost the last election with his attitude during the debate. If he shows a modicum of humility this time and stays on message – economy and the border – it’s all over.
  https://x.com/JesseBWatters/status/1833311379056693758
  
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  September 11, 2024 10:07am
  - MCōs
    
    Humility has never been Mr Trump’s strength & today was no exception
    
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    September 11, 2024 4:45pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    I listened to roughly the last half of the debate. My impression was Trump HAS been taking onboard advice to be more circumspect with his speech.
    
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    September 11, 2024 9:59pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  From Facebook:
  “Tonight we will actually get to see a Man win an argument with a Woman.”
  
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  September 11, 2024 10:44am
  - Paulus
    
    Not according to the media though as Kamala is a superior person ~!!
    
    1 3
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    September 11, 2024 12:00pm
- Tom Hunter
  
  You might get a laugh out of this before the actual debate.
  
  It’s from 2017 where some professor re-created key portions of the Clinton-Trump debates – but “switching” things around so that the women acted like Trump and the man acted like Hillary in terms of speaking and mannerisms.
  
  He was shocked to find that the audience didn’t split on the male/female thing but on the male/female presentation.
  
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  September 11, 2024 10:52am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  I suspect quite a few Democrats wished they hadn’t seen the Biden- Trump debate just a few months back.
  Worst. Presidential. Debate. Ever. President Joe Biden and former President have just squared off in the first presidential debate of the 2024 campaign and the rest of the world has watched in slack-jawed horror as democracy’s once “shining city on the hill” hit a new low.
  
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/520785/us-hits-new-low-in-biden-trump-presidential-debate
  
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  September 11, 2024 10:56am
- Miritu
  
  Many unaware that there has already been a Kamala – Trump debate
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mlmreTsaVY
  
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  September 11, 2024 11:01am
- Scott
  
  Umm the last presidential debate was the most consequential imaginable. The sitting president of the United States was forced out of running for re election and the vice president was installed as the candidate in his place. So that debate mattered.
  
  This debate could really matter if Kamala can talk enough and get into her word salad and “unburdening herself”. 😎
  
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  September 11, 2024 11:03am
- NothingLeft
  
  for more intelligent commentary on US political kabuki and election I thoroughly recommend Eric Weinstein talking to Piers Morgan today:
  https://youtu.be/Trrp-tgKvR0
  
  4 2
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  September 11, 2024 11:51am
  - NZer In Exile
    
    I see the lefty downvote fairy has visited today.
    
    1 1
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    September 11, 2024 9:25pm
NeverMindTheBollocks

Terrace bike rack report: at 8.15am – 1 bike
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September 11, 2024 8:19am
- I remember when
  
  As Whanau said, “Told you it was a needed asset.”
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:46am
- greybeard
  
  Just wait, the Council will find that it was built in the wrong place and must be relocated !
  
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  September 11, 2024 10:36am
- Oskar
  
  Terrace bike rack at 2pm today – 2 bikes
  
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  September 11, 2024 3:35pm
G152

In memory of the 3000 Americans who went to work on this day and never came home. How those young at college and university can defend the regime that fostered such evil by protest is beyond rational thought
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September 11, 2024 8:20am
- imalwaysright
  
  Larry Silverstein had the foresight to take the day off.
  
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  September 11, 2024 10:11am
- the deity formerly known as nigel6888
  
  Being pedantic, technically tomorrow is 9/11 in the States!
  
  2 2
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  September 11, 2024 11:48am
  - Tom Hunter
    
    Yep. It’s how I always memorialise it over at No Minister, to the minute.
    
    2 2
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    September 11, 2024 1:10pm
  - Mike
    
    That’s nonsensical. Would you make children wait till Boxing Day for their presents? Should armistice day be recalled at 11 pm on 11 November?
    
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    September 11, 2024 1:27pm
Yvette

Rewriting history: how the Treaty ‘principles’ evolved and why they don’t stand up to scrutiny
Jane Kelsey, Emeritus Professor of Law, University of Auckland
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/527566/rewriting-history-how-the-treaty-principles-evolved-and-why-they-don-t-stand-up-to-scrutiny

Jane Kelsey’s article discusses the evolving interpretation of the Treaty of Waitangi principles and critiques how they have been used to reshape the Treaty’s original intent. ACT Party leader David Seymour’s Treaty Principles Bill has sparked debate about whether Māori ceded sovereignty when they signed the Treaty in 1840. Many political leaders show a lack of understanding about the Treaty and its principles. The courts and government have redefined the Treaty’s intent over time, focusing on the idea of “partnership” while prioritizing Crown sovereignty. The article argues that Treaty principles, as interpreted today, do not align with the original Treaty, and calls for a more genuine conversation about what it means to honour Te Tiriti in modern New Zealand.

For contrast, rather than balance, consider the Newroom article by Dame Anne Salmond, Distinguished Professor, also at the University of Auckland, and holder of the Order of New Zealand –

The effrontery of David Seymour’s riposte to Church leaders over his Treaty Principles Bill is breathtaking. He accuses them of being undemocratic. When the Act Party took the idea of a referendum on Te Tiriti to a general election in 2023, it won just 8.6 percent of the vote. The other 91.4 percent of the electorate did not support the proposal. In a democratic society, that should have been the end of the matter.
Having failed to win a democratic mandate for its proposal, Act made this a bottom line in coalition negotiations. Although National had won 38 percent of the vote, and its leader Christopher Luxon knew that Act’s proposal for a referendum on Te Tiriti lacked electoral support, it agreed to let it proceed to a select committee. This was an error of judgment, in defiance of the will of the people.
https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/09/09/anne-salmond-a-cabinet-of-principles/

But quoting the Jane Kelsey article (top) – … the principles produced by the courts, the Waitangi Tribunal, government agencies and some academics have reduced te Tiriti to “three Ps”: partnership, participation, protection (and sometimes prosperity). These have become embedded in the guidelines for state agencies, which then claim they are complying with the Treaty.
Maybe ACT can be thanked, after all, for exposing the chimera of Treaty principles to proper scrutiny, and opening the door to engaging with the fundamental constitutional challenge of what honouring te Tiriti o Waitangi means for Aotearoa New Zealand today.

The ACT Principles bill does not “rewrite the Treaty”, but “seems” to seek to return the Treaty to its original form, after the rewriting done in 1970s onwards.

– “seems” because, like Christopher Luxon, 440 ‘Christians’, 27 Maori interpreters, many politicians, and all other critics, I have not yet seen the bill.
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September 11, 2024 8:21am
- Taieri
  
  Having failed to win a democratic mandate for its proposal, Act made this a bottom line in coalition negotiations.
  —————
  
  We don’t know whether there’s or there isn’t a democratic mandate for this proposal as it hasn’t yet been put under the democratic scrutiny. And the only relevant scrutiny would be via a referendum. Why are Salmonds of this world so scared of it?
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:41am
- bennerg
  
  Dame Anne Salmond has incredible logic … not!
  
  When the Act Party took the idea of a referendum on Te Tiriti to a general election in 2023, it won just 8.6 percent of the vote. The other 91.4 percent of the electorate did not support the proposal.
  
  As we all know the “idea of a referendum” was but one plank in the totality of the ACT Policies. Trying to assert that just one part of that Policy package determined the whole election outcome (for ACT) is lacking credibility. Actually we can all see that Salmond is trying to justify her own viewpoint by glossing over this salient point.
  
  Especially when other sources indicate a groundswell of support to get rid of the “gravy train” in Maori politics that has beset us for the last 40 years or so since Bill Rowling and Geoffrey Palmer and his crew deposited the farcical notion of “principles of the treaty” that have since got entrenched into law.
  
  I’m a treaty supporter, but for what is is/was, relevant to the time it was written and signed. Not some imagined document of the status of the Magna Carta or US Constitution, both of which were drafted by a group of significant thinkers of their time. The ToW was apparently written by one person, James Busby, and approved by Governor Hobson who signed it on behalf of the Crown. I’m sure both were gentleman of their time, but it is simply a document with no international status as a treaty, and a court judgement in 1877 declared it to be “a simple nullity”.
  
  It was the Third Labour Government under Bill Rowling, and proposed by Matt Rata, that passed the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975 which created the Waitangi Tribunal. The long title of the Act states that it is:
  
  An act to provide for the observance, and confirmation, of the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi by establishing a Tribunal to make recommendations on claims relating to the practical application of the Treaty and to determine whether certain matters are inconsistent with the principles of the Treaty.
  
  That Act does not define “the principles”, and so is left to interpretation, the fodder of lawyers and activists who want to continue the divisiveness in our community, that plays on the goodwill and fairness of the average citizen.
  
  All power to David Seymour and ACT to clarify this mess once and for all.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:55am
  - Yvette
    
    Bennerg, your comment explains why I wrote –
    “For contrast, rather than balance, consider the Newroom article by Dame Anne Salmond”
    It perhaps is a towering delusion to think the a General Election, with multiple parties with multiple policies, is in any way a single item Referendum – and dafter still concluding “91.4 percent of the electorate did not support the proposal.”
    
    As you say –
    All power to David Seymour and ACT to clarify this mess once and for all
    
    It would be good – after 184 years!
    
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    September 11, 2024 10:33am
  - mandk
    
    Following Anne Salmond’s logic, because only a small proportion of Māori voted for the Māori Party, they shouldn’t be in Parliament.
    
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    September 11, 2024 10:44am
- Nobby2
  
  The ACT Principles Bill has never said it wants to rewrite the treaty, what it wants to do is explain the three articles in succinct, easily understood english language so everyone can understand what they really mean. The misleading interpretation of the treaty articles by the waitangi tribunal, academics, radical maori, judges, labour / green / maori party politicians, bureaucrats and all other left wing do-gooders is the reason we need to clarify the original treaty articles as ACT is attempting to do.
  
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  September 11, 2024 11:38am
kowtow

Excellent article by David Round . NZCPR.

‘In a recent Newsroom article, Sir Geoffrey Palmer launched an attack on the Coalition Government. Constitutional Law Expert David Round responds…’

https://www.nzcpr.com/a-dangerous-legacy/
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September 11, 2024 8:23am
Benedict Yu

A slightly arcane question about the Treaty Principles Bill.

The Bill will be a “Government Bill” (as opposed to a Private Members Bill). It has been approved by Cabinet.

https://www.pco.govt.nz/about-us/about-new-zealand-legislation/about-legislation#:~:text=Bills%20are%20categorised%20as%20Government,Supplementary%20Order%20Paper%20or%20SOP).

Question… Has there ever been an example in New Zealand’s political history of a Government introducing a Bill to Parliament, and the Prime Minister simultaneously telling Parliament that the Government will seek to defeat the Bill at its Second Reading?
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September 11, 2024 8:24am
- Souvlaki
  
  Indeed…..and instead of saying, like a well trained parrot” we are not supporting the bill to a second reading”…is Luxon actually capable of giving a cogent reason why National is denying democracy? No one seems to question him on this point. Why not?
  
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  September 11, 2024 8:33am
  - Ian Boag
    
    National is denying democracy?
    
    Yep. 8.6% voted for this …. we won’t know for another 2.5 years if this has changed. A rather low bar for “denial of democracy” …. ?
    
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    September 11, 2024 8:58am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      No. You are citing the ACT Party vote. Not the same thing.
      
      If the Treaty Principles Bill went to a referendum, are you suggesting that it would receive support similar to ACT’s electoral party support? I suggest the Bill would receive between 55 percent and 65 percent support.
      
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      September 11, 2024 9:33am
      - kowtow
        
        I’d go 80%.
        
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        September 11, 2024 9:37am
    - RoboRob
      
      The 8.6% has nothing to do with the ‘democracy’ of the bill. If during the first stage of the bill there is overwheming public support for it, Luxons ‘I wont support it regardless’ policy is pretty undemocratic.
      
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      September 11, 2024 9:33am
      - PurplePen
        
        I suspect if the support ends up being in favour by most he’ll flip. At the moment he probably doesn’t want to upset the other coalition party nor any more of the vocal maori and woke electorate so is just parroting the coalition agreement. Problem is the minority can be very noisy and it is difficult to hear the great silent majority of NZ most of the time. I’m guessing the only way they hear some of them is when they do visits and walk-abouts.
        
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        September 11, 2024 10:40am
    - JimBobJoe
      
      Ohhhh… look the Labour attack line. ACT didn’t get a pure majority so they are irrelevant.
      
      As you well know not many vote on a single issue.
      
      But Treaty matters are high on many peoples minds, hence a referendum to sort out what the so called principles are is so important. How do I know this? Because of the amount of noise from those who want a referendum and the corresponding noise from those who don’t.
      
      Allowing a left leaning Judiciary to decide what the will of the people is is asinine in the extreme.
      
      Every single day the Judiciary in NZ demonstrate how out of touch they are with the NZ population via their sentencing outcomes and the reasoning leading to those outcomes.
      
      If Judges want to set policy, they should resign from the bench and run for parliament. But they don’t because the enjoy wielding power from the secure of the bench where they can’t be severely criticised and held to account, unlike an elected official
      
      Oh and the percent of election party vote does not drive major policy. Labour ditched the Privy Council, a huge constitutional change, with out a proper mandate as their party vote was high 30s in percent terms.
      
      And looking back, Clark and Cullen ditching the Privy Council was a big step into the current judiciary driven lunacy of Treaty partnership and co-governance we are currently living through
      
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      September 11, 2024 9:51am
    - zulumonster
      
      That’s just old style “Tyranny of the majority” thinking there Ian – democracy has moved on don’t you know?
      
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      September 11, 2024 11:19am
  - rouppe
    
    Because for those asking him about the Bill it is enough that he says it won’t be supported.
    
    Not asking for detail means he can be attacked later if National (Luxon) were to change their mind
    
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    September 11, 2024 9:18am
- Cassandra
  
  Never. I’m confident in saying that although I really should await those who finished their law degree. It’ll be an interesting process. An awful lot of lies from the opponents – even some Native Americans who have not seen the bill and do not know that Seymour is Ngapuhi. Labour foolishly added the term “principles of the Treaty” to law without a definition of said principles, thus allowing Cooke to do his dirty work. ACT’s bill merely does what Parliament should have done 30 years ago.
  
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  September 11, 2024 8:33am
- Grunter
  
  Seymour can’t lose out of all this.
  
  If, for some miraculous reason, The Nats and Winston 1st wake up and support the Bill, Seymour takes the credit for perseverance and fighting for a good cause.
  
  If, as expected, the Bill gets voted down after the first reading, AND the significant public support for the Bill is maintained or even grows, then Seymour heads into the next election with a massive club to smack the Nats and Winston 1st with.
  
  The vital question is, how successful will Seymour be at drumming up a decent chunk of public support? I think he is onto a massive winner here and the woke Nats don’t see whats coming.
  
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  September 11, 2024 8:51am
  - Ian Boag
    
    Personally I get more concerned about the health system. Supposedly there are some targets about waiting times in the works. Chopping staff numbers and sealing with shortages will help there …
    
    Shutting down KO house building will also be good once the “social housing agencies” start doing their thing in a couple of years or so.
    
    Tiriti is a bit of a sideshow IMO.
    
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    September 11, 2024 9:03am
    - rouppe
      
      All those things you mentioned boil down to the Treaty.
      
      So it’s not a sideshow, it’s patient zero in the mortal infection taking hold of this nation
      
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      September 11, 2024 9:21am
    - Grunter
      
      A decent chunk of the issues in our Health system has been made much worse by the Labour Govt’s Treaty BS (racist health decisions and racist Head Office Blob sucking up money).
      
      So keep dismissing ‘the sideshow’ – but one day it will all come back 10x worse.
      
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      September 11, 2024 9:33am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      Good grief. Governments are required to deal with more than one critical issue at a time.
      
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      September 11, 2024 9:34am
      - MCōs
        
        Prior to the last election the various parties that now make up the government identified a number of critical issues to resolve and the treaty principles question wasn’t a high priority except for Act
        Cost of living, inflation, law and order, education, healthcare, the economy, housing all took precedence and quite frankly half of them are going backwards
        
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        September 11, 2024 10:56am
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        Indeed, but Jacinda Ardern and her ‘Lockdown” mates didn’t know how to multi-task.
        
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        September 11, 2024 11:02am
      - MCōs
        
        That’s why governments change
        
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        September 11, 2024 11:24am
    - Cassandra
      
      It’s actually a major constitutional matter and needs attention and action, Ian. For those of us with an attention span longer than 10 seconds. Multi-tasking beyond you?
      
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      September 11, 2024 9:39am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Seymour has picked the wrong starting point.
    He is trying apply an ethical solution to a problem that is now purely monetary in nature.
    Being right will not convince people whose only interest is being rich.
    
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    September 11, 2024 9:37am
  - kowtow
    
    The woke Nats indeed.
    
    Front page Herald today is yet another attack on the Nats and the Maori wards .
    
    Can you believe the free spending councils are concerned that the cost of removing this racism is prohibitive!
    
    The Nats need to grow a pair and do this race monster policy properly .
    
    Either we’re a democracy with the over riding principle of equality or we continue down the road towards more corruption .
    
    To think that organised crime doing a war dance in a council office is seen by the powers that be is normal!
    
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    September 11, 2024 9:43am
Im Right

Unless Harris has a screaming meltdown, the debate will be declared a win for Harris (CNN, NYT, WAPO,MSNBC, BBC etc).
And a win for Trump (FOX)
I’m sure if there is any non biased media outlet in the USA, that outlet will actually supply a breakdown and non biased account of how it went for both candidates.
Trouble is nowadays the media are the biggest political party.
Let’s play BINGO….how many times will Kamala use her colour as an answer/reasoning to any questions asked?….I’ll start, I guess 6!
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September 11, 2024 8:27am
Paulus

Hallelujah
The newly elected Councillors. we have heard, have agreed, at Ratepayers costs, to a Rainbow Crossing in Tauranga – the first here, probably first of many.
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September 11, 2024 8:34am
- My-Gumboot
  
  I just don’t get the obsession with Rainbow Crossings. Paint your colours on the road and have people walk all over them, just doesn’t make sense.
  
  Why not have a parade or go to the library and tell stories to little kids…
  
  Or better still just be comfortable with your own identity with out needing some sort of public validation.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:04am
  - Don Beckett
    
    Just another thing that will continue Tauranga CBD along the path of Wokington.
    
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    September 11, 2024 11:32am
artemisia

So some councils can’t afford a Maori ward referendum and the government needs to pay for it. Actually councils could have voted for the free option, and even saved the ratepayers money by not needing to pay Maori ward councillor/s.

I am sure they considered this aspect before they voted. It’s the job of councillors to understand how their decisions will be funded. Before they vote, not afterwards.
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September 11, 2024 8:35am
- 70andstilllearning
  
  Wait for said councils to use the “referendum cost” as their excuse to demand further exorbitant rates increases next year – in their minds that will be a free option when the govt’ tells them to p o ……
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:36am
- backster
  
  But they can just raise the rates and thats what Kapiti did 18%.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:57am
- rouppe
  
  I call bullshit on the $350,000 cost for a referendum. It’s held at the next council election. It’s one question on a ballot that’s already being produced.
  
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  September 11, 2024 10:29am
  - MCōs
    
    Referendums may be held at the same time as local body elections elections, but they are on separate ballot papers and counted separately
    It becomes too complex otherwise
    
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    September 11, 2024 11:37am
    - PurplePen
      
      Local authority voting documents as they’re technically called have multiple electoral issues on them such as Mayoral Issue, Councillor, DHB, Community Board some of which are STV issues and others FPP depending on each local authority. The referendum is just another issue and the people running the election would just add it to the existing voting document. Easy as pie.
      
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      September 11, 2024 5:51pm
Dave

David Round has an op-ed excoriating Geoffrey Palmer particularly and our political, judicial, bureaucratic and academic elites more generally for their role in surreptitiously imposing on New Zealanders a top-down social model we’ve never voted for.

https://www.nzcpr.com/a-dangerous-legacy/#more-39857
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September 11, 2024 8:40am
- Yabster
  
  Great article- not sure what the Govt can do about our activist judges- hard to get rid of them.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:06am
- the deity formerly known as nigel6888
  
  That is a very well written and timely article. We need remember that Sir Geoffrey is not necessarily someone you would sensibly take advice from. His track record is seriously weak, and his constant appeal to autocratic authority is troubling!
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:45am
  - Burtland
    
    is Sir Geoffrey our Biden?
    
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    September 11, 2024 11:56am
- kowtow
  
  It’s a frighteningly important essay .
  
  “Justice Glazebrook, judge of the Supreme Court, has said publicly that the Rule of Law (which is of course a Good Thing which she, as a judge, is bound to support) will not be fully established in New Zealand until the ‘process of decolonisation’ ( which she defines to include Maori sovereignty) is complete! She and her fellow Supreme Court judges have just ‘discovered’ that Maori tikanga is part of our basic underlying law. ”
  
  Who the hell appoints these people to be our highest , wisest judges .
  No wonder Labour under Clark were so eager to bin the Privy Council , looking at this how could anyone have ever thought that was a good idea,.
  
  This is yet another example of the Long March through our institutions.
  
  Be very afraid.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:50am
  - imalwaysright
    
    “No wonder Labour under Clark were so eager to bin the Privy Council”
    
    Yes, they traded legal minds for mindless legals.
    
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    September 11, 2024 10:18am
- NothingLeft
  
  Ranks with Ardern, Hipkins and Muldoon as worst PMs of last 50 years.
  
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  September 11, 2024 1:28pm
  - Quail
    
    Muldoon should not be included with that group!
    Muldoon did achieve something.
    
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    September 11, 2024 5:49pm
    - NothingLeft
      
      Muldoon was the worst over-bearing big-govt socialist in NZ history who near-to-wrecked NZ economy with his govt imposed subsidies, fake govt job bullshiterry and over-regulation of everything. And he was a bullying shit of a man to boot.
      
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      September 11, 2024 6:00pm
imalwaysright

Aussie government wants kids off social media.
But first they will trial age verification.
Therefore, everyone who wants access will have to identify and verify themselves.
This is government overreach in the guise of protecting kids.
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September 11, 2024 8:43am
- Benedict Yu
  
  It is ridiculous.
  
  Young people will simply use a VPN to bypass the regulations. You can get a basic VPN for free.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:06am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Yes, it is a ridiculous premise, but I think the real motive is to know the identity of all users.
    
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    September 11, 2024 9:43am
    - NZer In Exile
      
      AI powered browser/device/behaviour “fingerprinting” will also largely achieve that.
      
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      September 11, 2024 10:03pm
- cmm
  
  It is a hand-wringing do something… anything… response.
  It won’t be effective, but they will be able to feel good that they did something.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:56am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Its not about kids verifying their age, if they do then they have proved they are kids and won’t get access.
    Its about adults proving they are not kids, that’s where the government gets to identify individual users and record them on their own database.
    Think of the consequences of that.
    
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    September 11, 2024 10:36am
  - Miritu
    
    No, it’s a Trojan Horse on the road to mass surveillance and digital ID
    
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    September 11, 2024 11:13am
- NothingLeft
  
  Seems like over-reach doesn’t it?
  
  But humans are not evolved to deal with certain inventions that target our brains motivating desire/reward seeking channels. There’s no fundamental reason to draw a line between dugs and social media in that – they are both targeting and exploiting different evolved weaknesses in our brains.
  
  For girls/women anything that bestows attention or simulacra of it and feeds their strong desire for status via female crypto-competitive display behaviors. Its greatly magnifying narcissistic self-centered tendencies and extreme destructive hypergamy, and leading to a massive uptick in serious mental illness and unhappiness due to continual confronting feelings of inadequacy and desperation for more of the always elusive attention/recognition that’s so hard to obtain in the wide spread webs of social media ‘fame’.
  
  For boys/men porn and martial contest simulation that is producing generation of sedated herbivores who can’t be bothered leaving their bedrooms to build a productive contributing life
  
  For all; drugs that activate the brain’s sex-linked pleasure mechanisms that evolution uses to encourage mating. Narcotics etc
  
  We ban the drugs, but not the similarly destructive social media.
  
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  September 11, 2024 6:20pm
cmm

It was just an innocent, random grandfather Saia Kokohu Vi that got gunned down. Could have happened to anyone’s grandfather right?

“Vi’s 33-year old son was on bail at the Rambler Crescent address that was targeted,”. OK, things get a bit more curious. But everyone’s got a few skeletons in their closet right?

“Court documents seen by Stuff show that Vi’s son and daughter had lived with him at the Pakuranga Heights address where he was killed.

The pair were were arrested in 2022 as part of Operation Worthington, an investigation into an organised crime group in Auckland. They are facing charges including importing drugs and money laundering.”

… ok, a platoon of skeletons…

“police were investigating whether the two incidents were gang-related.”

Naah, couldn’t be. Gangs are just cultural groups. Maybe a few of them are a bit cheeky, but they wouldn’t be involved in drugs and stuff would they?

I didn’t realise they still handed out detective badges in Weetbix boxes.

“Vi, also known as Saia, has been remembered by family, colleagues and friends as a “beautiful man”.”

Of course. Pull the other one.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350410677/police-still-searching-killer-pakuranga-shooting-three-weeks-later
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September 11, 2024 8:47am
- Swifty
  
  I’ve been kept very up to date on this daily by our courier driver who knew the victim personally and worked out of the same depot as him.
  
  He is absolutely convinced that the victim was wholly innocent and his killing was retribution on the crooked son-in-law who owed the wrong people money.
  
  The son-in-law had previously taken over the father’s courier run but got sacked by the company for an approximately $30k theft of customer deliveries, and the father had just recently finished paying off the $30k debt.
  
  The father (the victim) seems to have been a good bastard, and an innocent victim of his son-in-laws criminal associates.
  
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  September 11, 2024 10:45am
  - ISeeRed
    
    Truly tragic.
    
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    September 11, 2024 7:04pm
pdm

`Actually councils could have voted for the free option,’

Arty – I told Hastings District Council exactly that in my submission on the latest District Plan.

They did not want to know about that option – or at least the minion (on $100/150,000 plus salary) who replied to me said it was not an option.

Said minion has the title – Strategy Manager.
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September 11, 2024 8:48am
- MCōs
  
  Who was the minion who thinks he’s smarter than you?
  
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  September 11, 2024 11:42am
Scooter

3 dogs put down but what about the owners responsibility. As usual probably no consequence or punishment. They’ll just get another puppy and turn it into another mean aggressive mutt, no training, probably lots of beatings etc. After all it’s how a lot of children are treated.

She saw a dog in front of her looking “frightened and confused”.

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/national/rotorua-dog-attack-three-dogs-euthanised-victim-speaks-of-horrific-attack/
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September 11, 2024 8:57am
Yvette

Treaty
The policy has been marred with controversy, causing protests and drawing criticism from both Māori and non-Māori, including a group of Māori translators who said the bill was based on a translation of te Tiriti which was “deeply flawed” and failed “international translation ethical standards”.

Piripi Walker said the translation used for the bill was not objective, informed, or faithful to the literal or intended meaning of the original text. “None of the key concepts contained in the proposed principles are truly present in te Tiriti. Instead, the proposed principles are built on additions, omissions and distortions of the original text”.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/09/09/controversial-treaty-principles-bill-heading-to-cabinet-today/

So, as an utterly simple initial basic question, where is an accurate and universally accepted translation in English of the Maori version of the Treaty signed by the Chiefs at Waitangi in 1840?

Like, when Kiingi Tūheitia earlier this year said – “There’s no principles, the Treaty is written. That’s it.”
… and called for Te Tiriti o Waitangi (the Treaty of Waitangi) to be written into legislation so politicians “can’t change nothing” [1]
– to what translation did he refer?
_______________
[1] https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/maori-king-calls-for-hope-over-protest-while-dismissing-govt-treaty-bill/M2EXZG3JLNHTPFKEEUFK7Z5QXY/
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September 11, 2024 8:57am
- cmm
  
  It is a real struggle to take documents written and translated in the past then try to “reframe” them with a modern translation.
  
  Even English, a relatively stable written language, has changed significantly in the last 180 years. Unwritten languages with many dialects such as Maori are far less stable. Worse, the concepts being talked about (sovereignty etc) were not really part of the language or in the database of ideas of the Maori culture.
  
  Any agreement written at the time (and also any translation) would thus be very difficult to construct. Re-translating it using modern language is completely broken.
  
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  September 11, 2024 10:03am
  - Yvette
    
    cmm, it is difficult as you say, but compounded too by the probability that few of those who signed would have likely been able to read, so their signing would have been based on oral interpretation of what they were asked to put a mark to, and that discussion of course is now mostly non-existent in any record.
    
    There is still the simple question suggested – When Kiingi Tūheitia called for the Treaty to be written into legislation (so politicians “can’t change nothing”), what actual text would be used.
    He has passed, but shouldn’t Kuini Nga wai hono i te po, as the Kiingitanga’s new leader, know?
    If it is not first to produce that, what is any Maori Unity for?
    
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    September 11, 2024 10:58am
    - Don Beckett
      
      Sir Apirana Ngata’s translation in 1922 is generally accepted as accurate, is my understanding.
      
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      September 11, 2024 11:40am
      - NZer In Exile
        
        You know the drill. Hater/wrecker academic revolutionaries and fellow travelers will simply rewrite Sir Apirana as a traitor /idiot/liar etc etc. Problem solved.
        
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        September 11, 2024 10:07pm
    - PurplePen
      
      If you want to know what the chiefs that were in the tent at Waitangi said at the actual ToW signing, read William Colenso’s transcript of what was said. He was in the tent at the time and was fluent in Maori. The Waitangi Tribunal has used his transcript so it has been deemed valid at least by them. Also read the minutes from the Kohimarama Conference.
      https://waitangi.com/colenso/colhis1.html
      
      https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/parliamentary/AJHR1860-I.2.1.6.19
      
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      September 11, 2024 5:58pm
- rouppe
  
  Surely the original Treaty was written in English, and translated to Maori?
  
  Not least because Maori had no written language at the time.
  
  So any confusion is because of the translation to Maori, not the other way around.
  
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  September 11, 2024 4:35pm
Handyman

There has been an increase in the number and severity of attacks on bus drivers recently.
How long before we hear calls for bus drivers to have mandatory “cultural awareness” training, including Te Reo, to better respect their passengers?
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September 11, 2024 9:06am
- rouppe
  
  They’re now talking about security screens.
  
  Which will completely remove the ability to do anything about thugs that refuse to pay a fare.
  
  So the thugs have won.
  
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  September 11, 2024 4:33pm
CJames

For those that want to indulge in a good bit of “I was right” for conspiracy theories proving actually true, I recommend Matt Ridley’s latest article in Spiked
https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/09/10/there-is-now-no-doubt-that-covid-leaked-from-a-lab/
There he lays out closely all the evidence as to why it was a lab leak – as he calls it, the worst industrial accident in history. Move over, Bhopal this one is a thousand times worse. The article is just consolidating all that he has written about.

Matt has an interesting backstory and understanding of the subject – probably better than most scientists. He wrote a very influential book on genetics. With a wife who’s a real doctor and researcher, family dinner conversations at his place must be very interesting. His life is best covered in this interview that was done twenty years ago.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200669/
More recent stuff suffers from woke politics.

Since the documents have started being released, it is obvious that the leak is by far the most plausible theory. What has been particularly telling is that a cone of silence has descended on the subject. No-one will talk about it, let alone defend it. He can’t even get papers he was asked to write published nor anyone to debate it with. About the best reason for why this is occurring is if the world finds out what happened, it will annoy the Chinese.
The closing paragraph of the article sums it up:
“ In short, those of us who argue that the pandemic began with a laboratory accident have comprehensively won the debate. I do have some sympathy with the virologists who have waged a four-year battle to suppress, censor and delete all discussion of a laboratory leak. If my livelihood depended on this kind of research, I too would probably find it hard to accept that a lab leak had happened. Scientists, politicians, businesspeople and even journalists have a vested interest in hoping the subject just fades from memory. “
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September 11, 2024 9:07am
- cmm
  
  It was bloody obvious from day one that it leaked from a lab and I don’t think that has been at all contentious for at least the last 2 years.
  
  There are something like 10,000 wet markets in China. Anyone believing that Covid turned up in the market 300 metres away from a virus reasearch lab by coincidence is probably standing in the queue to buy Auckland bridge.
  
  The only place where there is any argument is:
  * was it deliberate
  * was there genetic manipulation etc going on (aka gain of function research).
  
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  September 11, 2024 10:09am
  - Grunter
    
    I think the Gain of Function question has been answered – Yes there was.
    
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    September 11, 2024 11:26am
  - Mr Nobody NZ
    
    I’ve argued here previously nobody wants the answer to this question as the potential consequences out weigh any positive outcome it might achieve eg:
    1) If it was a leak then should reparations be required for the loss of life and economic damage?
    2) If it was leaked deliberately is it classed as a first strik using a WMD?
    3) Would the leadership of the CCP be held accountable and facebtrial at the Hague?
    4) If the CCP refused to hand over the leadership will they face. Economic sanctions and arrest warrants like Russian and Israel?
    5) Is the west prepared to go to war over this issue which undoubtedly plenty of people would demand?
    
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    September 11, 2024 11:30am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Clearly accidental. Typical chinese ‘cha bu duo’ (almost good enough) approach to everything, including lab safety. There is no economy that was harmed worse than theirs.
      
      The one sinister take on it is: Westerners were mostly all forced to take a gene therapy that created cells in our bodies that are uniquely distinct. Chinese didn’t take it. But this means that westerners with our modified cells featuring expression of that MRNA gene therapy could now be specifically targeted by viruses designed to affect only those cells. It could become a viable vector of attack for a population targetting advanced bioweapon
      
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      September 11, 2024 6:30pm
CJames

There is a lot more back story to the closures of the Karioi mills that the media isn’t covering and the Ministers just hinted at.
The pulp sells on the international market. It is in competition with Canada, USA and Australia. As well as those countries not having carbon charges levied against them, they get subsidised energy. In the US, it is about $150/MWh because their black liquor boilers are considered biomass generation. And Canada has to do what US has done to stay competitive.
So if you want someone to blame for all the workers job losses, blame our politicians and their virtue signalling over greenhouse gas emissions. Actions have consequences.
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September 11, 2024 9:15am
- Benedict Yu
  
  I thought that pulp mills in New Zealand are given free units ih the ETS?
  
  https://environment.govt.nz/what-government-is-doing/areas-of-work/climate-change/ets/participating-in-the-nz-ets/overview-of-industrial-allocation/#:~:text=Industrial%20allocation%20aims%20to%20reduce,with%20businesses%20in%20other%20countries.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:45am
  - CJames
    
    BY
    They are only given partial credits and that is just for direct inputs. There are a lot of hidden stuff they don’t get any for – big example is all the trucks bring logs to mill.
    
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    September 11, 2024 11:27am
- peterwn
  
  With some of the reporting, anyone would think that electricity prices and the big bad gentailers were to blame. This merely seemed to be the ‘last stray’, and when the Government would not promise cheap subsidised electricity the company owners threw the toys out of the cot.
  I think some nations (especially in years gone by) over-built power stations so new industries could be offered cheap plentiful power. NZ unintentionally went through that phase in the 1970’s and 1980’s when the Power Plan presumed a 7% load growth rate (ie doubling every 10 years) and there was still a ‘pipeline’ of hydro stations to be built. This 7% growth rate in electricity use persisted right from the early days of electricity through to the early 1970’s when the rate faltered to the surprise of load forecasters.
  Interestingly with the mill in question, I seem to remember Treasury querying why studies were based on the standard ‘bulk supply tariff’ at the time (the tariff was the same for every grid exit point great or small except the Aluminum Smelter) rather than presumably marginal costs. At the time the Mill would have paid the ‘bulk supply tariff’ plus a tiny margin to the local Power Board (the old NZED resisted direct supply contracts as far as politically possible).
  
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  September 11, 2024 10:04am
- Handyman
  
  Black liquor is part of the Kraft chemical process (as at Kinleith) but Winstones uses mechanical pulping which requires more electricity per tonne of output.
  
  The Winstones tragedy is purely down to the overbuild of wind generation which in turn leads to an underinvestment in reliables which results in lack of capacity in a wind drought which results in rationing and price spikes.
  
  What the green party and Labour didn’t realise is that virtue signalling wind generation only works if you have a backdoor source not included in the calculations. For example, the UK can claim 100% wind for some hours but quietly take 20% on average of its power from French nuclear. Also in the UK the government hides the true cost of wind by setting the retail cost of electricity and absorbing the rest.
  
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  September 11, 2024 10:17am
  - Grunter
    
    Same story in Germany. They have spent gazillions on solar & wind generation. They have a theoretical capacity of about 2.5x the average usage and about double the peak usage. But wind and solar make up less than half their actual usage because it sits there most of the time doing nothing.
    
    The result….?
    – cost of power generation has gone up massively
    – Germany is still the largest user of coal in Europe, which is required as their backup energy source
    – Global GHG emissions continue to rise on the same trajectory.
    
    Clearly, the German plan has failed after 30 years of trying. Following that path and expecting a different outcome is insanity.
    
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    September 11, 2024 11:37am
    - cmm
      
      Germany is a far less precarious position because they have an interconnected grid that can import power from elsewhere (eg. nuke-friendly France), as well as gas (when the Ukrainians don’t blow it up).
      
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      September 11, 2024 12:12pm
- cmm
  
  Yup, the black liquor is mainly composed of lignin which is the tarry stuff that glues the cellulose wood fibres together. This burns well.
  It is basically the same as the wood gas driven off in the making of charcoal.
  
  One of the big questions is why the NZ pulp mills are so old. Likely this is in part down to the lack of confidence in the future of NZ industry and a reluctance to commit capital.
  
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  September 11, 2024 1:31pm
  - Jethrod
    
    Yes, the last paper mill built in NZ was 1981. At the official opening by Rob Muldoon he announced that tariffs on imported paper were to be lifted, which they were. So started the inexorable decline of the pulp and paper industry.
    At the time there was 18 paper machine in NZ. Now there is I think there is only 4.
    
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    September 11, 2024 5:03pm
RoboRob

I support the concept of removing gang patches from the streets. I do NOT support the slipping in of a change AFTER submissions that (stupidly) outlaws patches inside gang member houses.

The government has no right to tell me what I can or cant wear within my own house. It is a step too far and very totalitarian. National should be ashamed.
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September 11, 2024 9:42am
- cmm
  
  I think that’s their whole goal here.
  
  Make the bill so preposterous that Act and Winston First will refuse to support it. Then National can claim they are tough on crime and nobody else is.
  
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  September 11, 2024 1:21pm
  - MCōs
    
    I would suggest it’s something they put in there now so they can take it out later to appear reasonable
    
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    September 11, 2024 4:35pm
Notsofast

This makes me proud to be a New Zealander with super heroes like the Black Caps.
I guess the wives and girlfriends were socializing with their counterparts on the tour:

“Treating our Guests with True Afghan Hospitality! 🤩

The ACB hosted a warm and delightful dinner party for the Blackcaps to showcase Afghanistan’s rich culture of hospitality. The Kiwis were also treated with Special presents and gifts. 🤩🎁”

https://twitter.com/ACBofficials/status/1832666909562593733?t=otqWE-XEYmau6nZxUeIumw&s=19
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September 11, 2024 10:30am
Swifty

The Daily Blog is livid that the Coalition opposes racial discrimination:

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2024/09/11/this-government-just-cut-free-health-to-maori-and-pacifica-to-satisfy-their-redneck-racist-electorate/
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September 11, 2024 10:53am
- Blog-aholic
  
  Golly the lonely leftists dont hold back on their name calling and their lack of understanding reality do they.
  
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  September 11, 2024 11:43am
- Grunter
  
  The ‘R’ word again…!
  
  I refuse to make decisions based on a person’s race, how they look, or who they go to bed with.
  
  ” You racist, sexist, bigot, homophobe”
  
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  September 11, 2024 11:45am
- NZer In Exile
  
  The Daily Bog is a window into the juvenile thinking of the far left. Best to keep exposure levels low to avoid becoming too wound up by their twisted thinking.
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:33pm
Eastlander

Comforting and depressing at once that Sydney has so many of the same maladies that afflict us:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-28/nsw-city-of-sydney-mayoral-debate-nightlife-melbourne/104277536

Highlights:

The long-serving mayor drew ridicule as she outlined what the City of Sydney had done to revive nightlife in the wake of lockout laws and pandemic lockdowns.

“The work we’ve done in laneways and small bars have really sort of put us in front of Melbourne, so some said —”

Before she could finish her sentence, some in the audience started laughing and heckling.

The construction of cycleways, a signature policy of the lord mayor, also dominated discussion.

The City of Sydney is due to finish building a two-way bike lane along Oxford Street from College Street to Taylor Square early next year.

“It will be a buffer between the traffic and cafes and encourage outdoor dining on Oxford Street, so it becomes a place for people, rather than a traffic sewer,” Cr Moore said.

Cafe owner Mark Duff accused the mayor of inflating the number of bicycle trips along the street.

“Her claim that there are 3,000 bike trips along Oxford Street is a total lie. We did an actual count and there was less than 400,” Mr Duff said.

“I’ve heard all this thing about late nights and all this palaver, but the major economy is daytime.

“We don’t need a bike track which will destroy our daytime business.”

Cr Moore said it was ridiculous to suggest the cycleway would stop business activity.

“It’s well known that … when there’s increased foot traffic and increased cycling, then there’s increased business,” she said.

The mayor added that the planned Taylor Square to Centennial Park stage was a state government project.

The same bold-faced denial of their policies’ effects. And how bizarre to hear teenage r/fuckcars rhetoric from someone who is Clover Moore’s age.
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September 11, 2024 11:26am
- cmm
  
  There’s a brand new walk/cycleway along the side of the SH74 near Ferrymead. It must have cost a bundle to build and is artfully planted with natives etc.
  
  I drive past it about 5x per week. In the last 6 months I have seen one group of cyclists (2 or 3 cycles) and two lone joggers.
  
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  September 11, 2024 12:22pm
  - Eastlander
    
    Hardly even worth putting a levy on them!
    
    At least from a monetary point of view.
    
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    September 11, 2024 12:42pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

The United Spot.

The Debate Night Game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze25mMr8YBI
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September 11, 2024 11:30am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

The United Spot.

The Lie Detector Test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGW70UgrwAE
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September 11, 2024 11:34am
kiwikidsnz

“Mental health issues…” yeah, right.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/us-ju-jitsu-champ-chris-bower-attacked-in-nz-chokes-out-offender-in-cafe/7AM6XR6TPNCW7AOA4CGW7DCSVA/
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September 11, 2024 11:44am
cmm

According to Stuff:
“A small electric crossover Ford New Zealand confirmed as a definite starter for our market — the Puma EV — may have fallen victim to radically changed market conditions for pure plug-in vehicles.”

No, the market conditions for EVs have not changed significantly. The blip of demand was an aberration. There has never been a real, sustained EV market.

Sure, there is some demand for EVs but as soon as everyone who wanted one had one, the market saturated and pretty much disappeared.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/350410921/ford-reconsidering-launching-new-ev-new-zealand
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September 11, 2024 12:17pm
- I remember when
  
  Most probably a victim of Ford’s decision earlier this year to rethink their small car production.
  
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  September 11, 2024 12:28pm
  - cmm
    
    I think Ford had a rethink after they realised that the EV market was a blip that quickly saturated.
    
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    September 11, 2024 1:18pm
- greybeard
  
  Why can’t EVs , in their various forms, just be regarded as just another option for people to adopt, instead of being a total replacement for ICE vehicles ?
  
  Surely the best outcome is that a mix of ICE, BEVs, PHEVs and hybrids is inevitable and will satisfy most requirements ?
  
  Why the obsession with one type being better than another ?
  
  The world’s current fleet of ICE vehicles is so immense that it will NEVER be replaced in its entirety.
  
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  September 11, 2024 7:00pm
I remember when

I see today’s Manawatu Standard front page states, “Residents organise against tolls.”
“replacing the old route through the Manawatu Gorge.”

That route that has been closed since 2017.
The Saddle Road (60 kph limit) and Pahiatua Track, both of which have a number of 30-40 kph corners, are second class highways.
This is the major highway south for Hawkes Bay travellers and unlike previous toll roads is not just a speedier alternative.
For Tararua residents (19,200), Dannevirke (5640), Pahiatua (2840), Woodville (1670) plus rural population, it is often their access to shopping, work and recreation activities.
Pahiatua’s public transport consists of a single trip from Tuesday to Friday and on Sunday Masterton-Palmerston North and return bus service (with an extra service on Fridays.)
The only justification for it being a toll road is that after seven years it still isn’t available so will be the first cab off the rank.
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September 11, 2024 12:24pm
- mandk
  
  Roads have to be paid for, so why not toll them?
  
  As you point out, there will be two alternative routes, if people want to avoid the toll.
  
  Besides, the new road will be a lot better than the old road, so a premium to use it is justified.
  
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  September 11, 2024 1:25pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Any toll roads near you, mandk? Do you use them? Or are all the roads you use paid for by other people, with no added contribution from yourself?
    
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    September 11, 2024 9:51pm
- Colville
  
  The justification for it being a toll road is that users should pay for it!
  
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  September 11, 2024 2:13pm
Taieri

The geniuses at work:

“(…)The restructure was part of a $700m overhaul of ACC’s systems that was meant to produce $438m in cost savings by 2030(…)”

https://www.odt.co.nz/business/acc-raise-levies-cover-1b-revenue-hole

Spend $700 million now in order to save $438 million in the distant future. Can’t they do a simple arithmetic anymore?

Who the fuck appoints these imbeciles to their exalted positions?
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September 11, 2024 12:31pm
- cmm
  
  That probably cost $10M in consulting fees.
  
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  September 11, 2024 2:21pm
BeaB

Surely the answer to the appalling mess of our health system that we are told about daily lies withheld two previous ministers of health. After all, for six long years, during the worst epidemic in our history, we heard none of these horror stories. Either the health system was perfectly ok or the media just didn’t tell us what was really going on. Surely not.
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September 11, 2024 12:42pm
- cmm
  
  “during the worst epidemic in our history”
  Wot? The Spanish Flu of 1918?
  
  Thousands of returning soldiers returned safely from the trenches of Europe only to die of Spanish Flu in the demobilisation camps in NZ.
  
  Bugger!
  
  In total 9000 REAL deaths out of a population of about 1million (ie. none of that died but tested Covid positive nonsense that manipulated the numbers in 2020).
  
  https://boatingnz.co.nz/2020/06/the-spanish-flu-of-1918-lest-we-forget/
  
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  September 11, 2024 2:28pm
  - mandk
    
    There have been around 4,400 deaths in NZ since the start of the COVID outbreak that have been attributed to the disease (i.e. where COVID was the cause or a contributing factor).
    
    In other words, the Spanish flu was worse than COVID by at least an order of magnitude.
    
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    September 11, 2024 3:59pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    Was an interesting commentary on this from Bret Weinstein on Rogan; a significant reason the spanish flu killed so many, particularly young adults, was that the new wonder-drug Aspirin (Salicylates) was being administered at toxic levels to treat it causing pulmonary edema and consequent death from secondary infections via pneumonia etc.
    
    https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/49/9/1405/301441
    
    Similarly for covid, a large factor in the rate of deaths was bad medical policies that caused death: intubation with oxygen delivery, remdesivir, banning and non-promotion of known safe and efficacious medications like ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, ensuring sufficiency of vit-D and zinc, weight loss etc
    
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    September 11, 2024 4:02pm
  - MCōs
    
    Polio was pretty bad too
    Not so much for fatalities, but for the effect it had on survivors
    
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    September 11, 2024 9:03pm
Colville

Any hints on where to look for a balanced view of the debate??
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September 11, 2024 2:14pm
- Flossie
  
  Very good question.
  
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  September 11, 2024 2:40pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    Megyn Kelly has a range of commentators left and right discussing it:
    https://youtu.be/5cft5c6mE8k
    
    General conclusions:
    -outrageously biased moderators and questions that almost exclusively targeted trump, and only the softest of softballs for Kamala
    -trump being triple teamed didn’t win, was on defensive frequently
    -kamala came out well compared to expectations.
    
    Left will trumpet it as a curb-stomping of Trump
    Right will say we wuz robbed.
    
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    September 11, 2024 3:42pm
    - SmokerGuy
      
      You are right but Trump is absolutely nuts! Bias moderators doesn’t account for him saying some of the stuff he did. People eating pet dogs and cats, wtf????? It’s actually embarrassing to watch.
      
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      September 11, 2024 4:29pm
      - NothingLeft
        
        So you haven’t been following news of Springfield Ohio’s diversity dividend of 20000 Haitians imported by Biden admin to add to 40000 natives? Many reports in recent days that they’ve been eating all local wildlife, specifically all local ducks and some peoples pet cats?
        
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        September 11, 2024 5:16pm
      - kowtow
        
        There have been a number of stories in the US media recently about bizarre “immigrant” behaviour.Including animal sacrifice in Queens , NY.
        
        The media get to put out these stories then they get to mock Trump for repeating the “news”.
        
        Win win.( for the left)
        
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        September 11, 2024 5:40pm
      - artemisia
        
        What say those folk are finding protein sources to survive? Eating pets is hard to justify. Unless your children are starving and you are desperate. Protein is protein.
        
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        September 11, 2024 5:55pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        A large number of Haitian illegal immigrants dumped into a small town have indeed been eating ducks from local parks as well as people’s cats in some cases. The media are gas-lighting and lying, as usual.
        
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        September 11, 2024 9:38pm
    - kevn
      
      Nothing… The most interesting thing for me was hearing kackler speak coherently for the hour. The little ear piece (with talking point coaching) allowed her to keep it up.
      
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      September 11, 2024 7:33pm
- Ghost
  
  Watched 10 minutes, that was enough. They’re both has bad as each other.
  
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  September 11, 2024 3:43pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    Superficially maybe. But Harris, or more particularly the people that control her, is infinitely worse for the prospects of preserving democracy in the US and the world.
    
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    September 11, 2024 4:04pm
  - fernglas
    
    I watched 10 seconds, and saw Trump blustering while Harris posed with a range of pre-planned facial expressions that looked like they had been taken from a primary school drama class. What a pathetic charade. If that’s the best the States can do, no wonder the world is laughing at them.
    
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    September 11, 2024 4:57pm
    - Drone
      
      New Zealand bought a woman with a suite of faces, sad happy concerned we know all about that one..
      
      14 3
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      September 11, 2024 5:09pm
      - ISeeRed
        
        “Tilty head frowny face” was Ardern’s version of Zoolander’s “Magnum” that worked magnificently on journalists. “OMG I won’t question anything she says!”
        
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        September 11, 2024 7:18pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        The BFD had quite a collection of photos of not so positive facial expressions from Jacinda.
        
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        September 11, 2024 9:40pm
  - Swifty
    
    I agree Ghost, I barely made a couple of minutes.
    
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    September 11, 2024 5:06pm
SPC

If you mean neither Fox News nor MSM USA, consider reputable media outside the USA.
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September 11, 2024 2:42pm
Gravelroad

I don’t like Trump.
I don’t hate Trump.
It wouldn’t matter what he said or did in a debate, the media here and there would say he was terrible, a ranter, a criminal, a “womaniser” and looks funny.
I don’t know why he bothers with standing for office.
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September 11, 2024 3:51pm
- Pineapple Lumps
  
  The same media that relentlessly attack anything right of the far left in NZ. That have consistently criticised the government since the election. The media that has diminishing levels of trust.
  
  All good reasons to be cynical – dismissive about anything that media is promoting!
  
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  September 11, 2024 6:00pm
- NothingLeft
  
  I think:
  1/ He’s old and wants immortality of the sort fame buys
  2/ He’s (to some degree) narcissistic
  3/ He probably has some sense of wanting to do good for his country and sees himself as a good person.
  4/ He’s old and has had a good life to date, he has little to lose and it is exciting to him
  
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  September 11, 2024 6:58pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  Yes I was listening to The Platform today. They get their news segments form some woke NZ outlet. The commentary on the Trump/Harris debate from that outlet was simply pathetic and juvenile (mostly lies and distortions).
  
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  September 11, 2024 9:43pm
Inandout

Last debate before the election so isn’t critical, but policies and the future of the US are.
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September 11, 2024 3:53pm
tknorriss

Not having any skin in the game, I was able to watch this debate quite objectively.

In my opinion Harris clearly won that debate. A large part of the reason was that she was able to bait Trump into going on looney rants. Such as claiming that illegal immigrants had been eating family pets. And I nearly dropped my coffee when Trump said that Harris “put out”.
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September 11, 2024 3:56pm
- Flossie
  
  Apparently Trump would not agree with you. I’ve just read that he said it was his “best debate ever”.
  
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  September 11, 2024 4:57pm
- Tom Hunter
  
  Fair enough, but in that case what did you think of Harris’s claim that “Donald Trump left us the worst attack on Democracy since the Civil War”, when the 23rd anniversary of the 9/11 attacks is tomorrow, US time?
  
  I have to admit that I was surprised she still tried pushing that crazy ahistorical bullshit but I guess it’s red meat time for Democrat voters.
  
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  September 11, 2024 5:49pm
  - Mike
    
    It’s pretty sad if that’s the best attack Tom Hunter can copy.
    
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    September 11, 2024 6:20pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Harris disingenuously said people died there. Yes they did but it wasn’t the protestors who did the killing. It was a protest and small number did some feral things. She was personally involved in making sure violent BLM rioters got bail.
    
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    September 11, 2024 9:48pm
- NothingLeft
  
  Look up huge influx of immigrant Haitians eating local ducks and pet cats in Springfield Ohio. Been in the news for days. Shitloads of funny memes floating around on the interwebs.
  
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  September 11, 2024 7:01pm
Tauhei Notts

The betting market agrees with Tknorriss’ assessment.
The Kackling Kamala has firmed from $2.20 to a firm $1.95 favourite, over the past two days.
My $200 on Trump at $1.50 now looks decidedly shaky.
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September 11, 2024 4:53pm
- Biscuit
  
  Two bad horses, TN!
  
  I’d not want a dollar on either of them!
  
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  September 11, 2024 7:01pm
Swifty

I’m absolutely shocked!

Just listening to RNZ as I rattle the pots for dinner and a number of texts from listeners about the Trump/Harris debate were read out and every single one of them were pro-Harris!

What are the chances? Who would have thought it? How could this be?

//
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September 11, 2024 5:04pm
- NothingLeft
  
  RNZ’s audience and staff are left to far left.
  
  And they make the sucker taxpayers pay for it.
  
  6 3
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  September 11, 2024 7:58pm
MCōs

Life’s tough for some little kids
https://thethaiger.com/news/national/rescue-worker-makes-thai-girls-kfc-dream-come-true
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September 11, 2024 5:08pm
Jack5

Woke watch:

The word “walkabout” is being dropped by King Charles from the Royal itinerary for the Australian royal visit next month to avoid offending Aboriginal people.

The Sydney Morning Herald reports the word will be replaced by the phrase “opportunity to meet the public.”

King Charles, 75, and Queen Camilla, 76, wil visit Australia and Western Samoa from October 18 to 26.

The newspaper says “walkabout” was once widely used to describe solo journeys or initiation rites, but many indigenous groups regard it offensive when used colloquially by others to describe a holiday, a hike, or going missing.

In 2016, an Australia Day dance party, “Lets Go Walkabout,” had to change its name after organisers were accused of cultural appropriation.

The Royal walkabout has been a feature of visits since Queen Elizabeth II adopted the term during her 1970 visit to New Zealand.
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September 11, 2024 5:36pm
- Pineapple Lumps
  
  I don’t realise walkabout was an aboriginal word coined into English.
  
  What language does roundabout originate from?
  
  5 3
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  September 11, 2024 6:05pm

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