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August 17, 2024 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 17 August 2024

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General Debate

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Chuck Bird

I say this was not right. What say you.

Special investigation: Her baby was taken. The apology came too late

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/an-autistic-mums-baby-was-uplifted-the-apology-from-oranga-tamariki-came-too-late/5WSBYM6I75DJJJ7M4TA3D5GFWE/
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August 17, 2024 8:08am
- Dudley Quaffquaff
  
  I say, as you’ve been told many times, that it is rude, arrogant, pointless and lazy to put up a link to a paywalled article without elaboration.
  
  As to the substance, we’re not qualified to pass judgement on the basis of the two paragraphs we are shown before hitting the paywall, and we’re almost certainly not qualified to pass judgement on the basis of the whole article either, given that it’s clearly written with an agenda and probably gives more insight and information from the viewpoint of the family, who are not restricted by professional ethics and privacy law in what they can say, than from the viewpoint of OT, who are
  
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  August 17, 2024 8:26am
- Damocles11
  
  Chuck, once again you are posting Herald articles that are behind a paywall. Opinion pieces weren’t working for you, now you are trying to lure in subscribers with an ‘investigative journalism’ piece. 🤦🏻‍♂️
  I won’t pay NZME a single cent, sorry mate. Hopefully most others feel the same. Their editorial line was already way, way Left even before they took a steaming dump on free speech by refusing to run the latest Hobsons Choice ad.
  My feeling on Oranga Tamariki is that they are in an invidious position, if they uplift they get attacked, if they don’t uplift and a child dies they are condemned. They can’t win.
  
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  August 17, 2024 9:02am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Here we go again. IIRC it was only a few days ago that a moderator reminded you of the need to provide a short summary of links to pay walled articles.
  
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  August 17, 2024 9:15am
  - Damocles11
    
    I think he works for NZME to be honest.
    
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    August 17, 2024 9:21am
  - Chuck Bird
    
    I did not notice this was premium.
    
    Days after a young woman with autism gave birth her baby was uplifted from the maternity ward, without warning and by government social workers.
    
    The boy was later adopted into a permanent “home for life”. Years later, the Chief Ombudsman found Oranga Tamariki acted unreasonably, and the Ministry for Children apologised to the mother.
    
    “It was too late to return her child, who is now 10 and remains with his adopted parents. His birth mother has no contact with him. In her first interview, she tells Nicholas Jones of her fear for other disabled parents, despite Oranga Tamariki telling her that “we hope your experience is not repeated”.”
    
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    August 17, 2024 9:27am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      From your summary, it is impossible to judge whether or not the agency acted unreasonably.
      
      Throughout western nations, such agencies are criticised on the one hand for extracting babies from supposedly loving families. On the other hand they are attacked for not acting and being complicit in the subsequent murder and assault of children.
      
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      August 17, 2024 9:44am
    - JackRabbit
      
      I did not notice this was premium..
      
      Top right hand corner of the content page.
      
      Chuck, a little piece of advice, ( I don’t believe its the first time), as I know you are passionate about digging up things of interest for us to read, and I don’t want to dampen that enthusiasm.
      
      [1] By now you should realise that only news that is NOT important news to the whole nation, are paywalled. If it is important and news, it is NOT paywalled. Only juicy content that will drive gossip and ratings is paywalled.
      
      [2] Even with a subscription to get past the paywall, all you are getting is someone else’s opinion i.e. in this case Nicholas Jones, with an implied title of “Special Investigator”. Special investigation: Apology after autistic mum’s baby taken…
      
      [3] Without disrespect to Jones, as he may be an enthusiastic “investigative reporter”, but his photo indicates he is still young without a lifetime of experience, and no doubt being in the media, he is directed to create news stories that drive ratings. If you disagree, can you direct me to the articles he has written that objectively criticise the Waitangi Tribunal, Te Tiriti, the Covid response, Covid mandates and the Covid vaccines, the former Labour govt, etc
      
      Surely an investigation into the tens of thousands of families that have been, and are still currently being destroyed by the above, is topical and needs to on the front page of every newspaper, every day, and calling for action.
      
      [4] Items that actually newsworthy and in the public interest should never be behind a paywall. Items that appear behind a paywall are juicy gossip that are there to entice you to buy a subscription.
      
      [5] All news articles without the facts are just someone’s viewpoint or summary as the see things or as the news feeds represent it. I have no viewpoint on that headline because I don’t have access to all the facts.
      
      The mother was Autistic, and I have empathy for her plight, and I dislike state intervention, but without actual facts, there are lots of questions:
      
      -What level of Autism?
      -What was her mental state at the time of the birth?
      -Was she a danger to the baby? e.g. unaware enough to likely to roll on and squash baby?
      -Too emotional and distraught to care for the baby?
      -Did she even want the baby?
      -Where was her husband?
      -Was she married?
      -How did she get pregnant? In a marriage with a loving husband? Rape?
      -Where was the father?
      -Was she ‘compos mentis’ enough to be able to care for the baby?
      -Was she in state care at the time? e.g. Mental Hospital? Or working in a high salaried job with maternity leave coming up? Or destitute? Could she even financially support a child?
      -Did she reject the child?
      -Where her parents/carers/family/the father/involved in the decision to uplift?
      
      Or maybe it is exactly how the ratings driven / subscription driven marketing headline / article paints it.
      
      I’m not justifying state intervention, but there are too many unanswered questions to treat the article at face value. We all know how easy it is be wise in hindsight, to look back at history from today’s perspective with better awareness and have regrets. Or see things differently with the benefit of hindsight, and go and put a new slant on history.
      
      Stop copying and pasting from websites. Instead comment on what you know, and have actually verified for yourself.
      
      In case I have been too judgemental, perhaps you could please point me in the direction of the actual case files from the time the uplift happened?
      
      Quite frankly, I’d prefer you to use your enthusiasm to focus on the present and go interview daily, the family of a person killed by the vaccines, and/or those suffering with health issues from the vaccines, or people whose careers/businesses/jobs crushed by the mandates and lockdowns, or families ripped apart, etc, etc
      
      That would be very beneficial and I’d look forward to reading your daily accounts.
      
      Kind Regards
      Jack R
      
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      August 17, 2024 10:47am
      - Debsta
        
        Well said that man!
        
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        August 17, 2024 11:15am
    - grumpy
      
      Of course they can return the child. They do it all the time for cultural purposes.
      
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      August 17, 2024 11:02am
- Ghost
  
  She was listed as being borderline functioning. Not sure I’d want a child raised by a mother who is listed as such
  
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  August 17, 2024 10:54am
  - coge
    
    Wouldn’t have lessened the mother’s trauma. Which would be devastating to most women. In fact it could be a whole lot worse for her, if that’s possible to imagine.
    
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    August 17, 2024 6:04pm
Yvette

Treaty principles
While his speech to more than 10,000 people at Tūrangawaewae Marae in Ngāruawāhia was largely optimistic, Kiingi Tūheitia criticised the Government’s Treaty Principles Bill, which aimed to redefine the Treaty principles, and called for Te Tiriti o Waitangi to be written into legislation so politicians “can’t change nothing”.
… He didn’t make specific references to any proposed legislation but did indicate his strong condemnation for the Treaty Principles Bill, created by Act and agreed to in its coalition with National. “There’s no principles, the Treaty is written. That’s it.” – Maori King, Kiingi Tūheitia
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/maori-king-calls-for-hope-over-protest-while-dismissing-govt-treaty-bill/M2EXZG3JLNHTPFKEEUFK7Z5QXY/

… “called for Te Tiriti o Waitangi to be written into legislation”
– I too would think recording the actual Treaty officially and publilcy – not in legislation, but an “officially stated affidavit document” perhaps through the supreme court or somewhere, as the correct translators ratified document, the English version accepted by a Maori representative group (national committee, Kingii dictate, forum, whatever, at their own expense) as being an accurate English version of the Maori version signed at Waitangi on February 6, 1840 – so everyone is “on the same bloody page” before the ACT act is delivered for consideration in November.
Simple enough request after 186 years?
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August 17, 2024 8:09am
- pdm
  
  Yvette I am not sure I would trust current judges on the Supreme Court to get it right.
  
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  August 17, 2024 10:59am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  How the tribunal can make a decision on a so called leaked document is beyond stupid, apparently there still has not been a paper drawn up, so what can have been leaked? It appears to be daily lies are coming out to try and detract from government work.
  
  The lies over the nurses and doctors to be sacked, and last night Reti was assuring people that Whangeri hospital was fully opened after some pathetic idiot reported the hospital was closed for the weekend, it’s time police spoke to these crooks
  
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  August 17, 2024 11:58am
I remember when

Went to the dentist during the week, all of the staff were wearing masks.
I presumed it was because of the flu and flu-like illnesses.

Then I paid my bill.
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August 17, 2024 8:14am
- JackRabbit
  
  Were the masks of the type Ned Kelly wore?
  
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  August 17, 2024 12:45pm
Chuck Bird

An excellent article by Peter Williams

Waitangi Tribunal Report Predictable

https://peterallanwilliams.substack.com/p/waitangi-tribunal-report-predictable
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August 17, 2024 8:16am
- Colville
  
  Of course the Waitangi Tribunal thinks they are the most important people on the face of the planet.
  
  If their trough was removed they would have to get real jobs!
  
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  August 17, 2024 8:31am
- David Garrett
  
  Chuck: Williams has nailed it…if Luxon is so piss weak that he won’t support the Bill at second reading then it’s dead in the water.
  
  I faced a similar problem in 2010 over the 3S Bill – with one major difference: National did not say they wouldn’t support 3S further, but that they would have to be convinced it was a sound measure. So Seymour has a much bigger task than I had
  
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  August 17, 2024 8:45am
  - David Garrett
    
    The Nats respond to pulling…if they become convinced that Seymours Bill has huge public support then they will change their tune and support it…so Seymour needs to generate huge public support…that should not be hard…he should be giving interviews left right and centre…and using his young minions to flood social media..but hey, what would I know?
    
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    August 17, 2024 9:08am
    - pdm
      
      Seems David Seymour is going to hold meetings around the country and hopefully this will be front and center of these.
      
      Yesterday I received notice of one in Hastings at 5.30pm on Friday 30 August. Venue is the Cheval Room at Hastings Racecourse.
      
      I intend to be there.
      
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      August 17, 2024 9:12am
      - David Garrett
        
        Pdm: Unless things have changed radically since my time, very few voters turn up to meetings…I recall one organized
        by the then MP for Palmerston North to oppose three strikes..IIRC there were maybe 30 people there…and the lefties of the time were particularly energized about 3S
        
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        August 17, 2024 9:18am
      - imalwaysright
        
        The first question of the referendum should be
        “Do you want the treaty? “
        
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        August 17, 2024 9:30am
      - pdm
        
        DG in the last two or three years I have been to 4 or 5 Seymour meetings in the Hastings area. Smallest attendance about 200 (I have a vague recollection of someone saying 230) the largest must have nudged close to 500 (my estimate but it was definitely the best attendance of the ones I went to).
        
        Will be interesting to see how many turn out a year (almost) after the election.
        
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        August 17, 2024 10:07am
      - Colville
        
        pdm.
        I go to those also.
        Yes Seymour has been getting crowds that didnt fit in the venues great to see.
        
        IMHO Luxon knows he has to fold to Seymour and is just playing a game with the media.
        
        “I was forced to agree…that is the MMP works you know…I didnt invent the system… the people get what the people want”
        
        But Seymour is going to have to publicly fight for it…and good job.. it will solidify Semour as the 2nd most important poli in NZ.
        
        (maybe the 3rd behind Bishop)
        
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        August 17, 2024 10:18am
      - David Garrett
        
        pdm: The problem mate is that at any such meeting, the speaker is normally preaching to the converted. At the anti-three strikes meeting I referred to, IIRC my wife and I were the only attendees in favour of it.
        
        Seymour needs to reach the politically neutral intelligent persons who don’t know much about the issue. The best way of doing that is social media for the young, and the MSM for the older demographic.
        
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        August 17, 2024 10:24am
      - JackRabbit
        
        @imalwaysright
        
        The first question of the referendum should be
        “Do you want the treaty? “
        
        I get that don’t like the current situation, neither do I, but think about the consequences of your idea if it was acted upon.
        
        I think you need to spend some considerable time studying the concepts of precedence and antecedence, and how it applies to the Treaty and indeed all laws in general.
        
        “Do you want the treaty? “
        
        If the answer is a resounding “no”, then all laws created by the Crown for NZ, from that point forward could easily be considered null and void, the Crown having no legal jurisdiction, and the Crown and its subjects essentially invaders that took control by force. It could easily be implied that you do not belong here, and do not own your land or home.
        
        You would be granting the Maori terrorists an open invitation for bloodshed. You can look forward to civil war.
        
        Are you by any chance in the business of selling muskets or gun powder?
        
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        August 17, 2024 12:58pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        Jack Rabbit.
        Subsequent documents validated the legal framework of NZ, so even if the treaty was abandoned, there is still laws re Crown sovereignty.
        
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        August 17, 2024 1:42pm
      - kowtow
        
        DB
        
        Quite right. The treaty must be seen in a much wider context,as well as in its wording.
        
        In essence the British being the nice people they were wanted to legitimise their planned presence here.
        The first thing was to get the chiefs to agree . Which they did . The documnt is very simple in its 3 articles .
        1 Cessation of sovereignty
        2 Sale and purchase of land
        3 Rights and priveliges of subjects.
        
        And that’s it . In context the Crown was competing with the NZ Company for the rights to buy and sell and were in a panic not to allow the Wakefields the initiative or legal standing. That also is the context of the Magistrates going to Akaroa to pre empt any Froggy claims .It was all about those rights of possesion.
        
        Similarly there can be no misunderstanding about the issue of sovereignty given Hobson’s proclamations about same.
        
        And these Victorian treaties with natives were signed in many places with many rulers , that would be an obvious place for any student genuinely interested in Crown/native relations to begin.
        One thing is for sure , the Victorians weren’t interested in “co governance” . The Crown was supreme in any declared territory .
        
        And as you say , quite rightly , following the treaty were the Royal Charter and Letters Patent setting out the constitutional arrangements which have come down to us to today .
        
        Why so many people either ignore those or are ignorant of them is beyond me . Wilfull blindness is certainly at play with the radicals .
        But this fashion for reinterpretations is a nonsense .
        
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        August 17, 2024 2:06pm
      - JackRabbit
        
        @Don Beckett
        
        And who created theses laws? The Crown? A Parliament established by the Crown?
        
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        August 17, 2024 2:48pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    New Zealanders used to be, and think of themselves, as easy going and fair minded.
    
    If there are enough of those New Zealanders still above ground, David Seymour’s Bill should be a no-brainer.
    
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    August 17, 2024 9:11am
    - Burtland
      
      NZ has become a nation of shouty karens wanting free stuff – 10000 words arent enough
      
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      August 17, 2024 11:11am
  - Souvlaki
    
    Yes !
    Luxon’s intransigence on this is to me, inexplicable.
    It IS significantly feeding an exodus of our brightest, most intelligent and aspirational youth and younger professionals….although of course ,National, like the proverbial ‘ostrich'( or Sgt Shultz in Luxon’s case ) don’t/ won’t acknowledge this. If I were a younger man, I’d be making plans to emigrate.
    Also, Luxon has the effrontery to say he is a ‘ Christian ‘….how does elevating one ethnicity above all others sit with his professed belief?
    He is in fact, a SERIOUS hypocrite, but lacks the insight to see it !
    
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    August 17, 2024 9:13am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      I do not think that you should resort to Christianity. Christians have a long history of racism. Remember the expulsion of the Moors from Spain in the 15th century by the Catholic Church? Today in the USA, many white supremacists are fundamentalist Christians.
      
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      August 17, 2024 9:31am
      - Pineapple Lumps
        
        Moors were the Muslim North African invaders. So the Spanish Christians were in an existential battle. Not disimilar to the conflict in the UK at the moment. So very simplistic and lazy to claim this was evidence of racism. Almost on par with Te Pati Māori thinking.
        
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        August 17, 2024 9:43am
      - mogg
        
        Yes and no other religious group or nationality has a history of racism. These constant accusations of racism have become entirely predictable and meaningless. With the long history of racism that has been practiced by Asian and African countries the white races look like amateurs by comparison.
        
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        August 17, 2024 9:44am
      - Rusty
        
        @Benedict Yu – Just because some white supremacists use Christian jargon does not make them Christian fundamentalists.
        
        Jesus Christ wasn’t a racialist so if white supremacists use his name you know they are lying right?
        
        Heard of William Wilbeforce, Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King?
        
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        August 17, 2024 9:48am
      - MCōs
        
        Māori are hardly invaders if that’s what you are insinuating
        
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        August 17, 2024 9:57am
      - Swifty
        
        Lumps is right about that Benedict – you refer to the retaking (reconquista) of Spain, which had been Christian for centuries, from the Muslim invaders who had carved and hacked their way across North Africa and into Spain.
        
        Unless they were stopped by force they would have taken the whole of Europe both via the South and the East.
        
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        August 17, 2024 9:57am
      - Cassandra
        
        I think that the expulsion of the Jews is a better example. The Moors were invaders. Remember El Cid?
        
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        August 17, 2024 10:00am
      - kowtow
        
        The expulsion of the Moors was as much political/military necessity , by the lights of the practice of the day ,as it was ‘Christian” racism .
        
        It certainly was not as you put it “racist”.
        
        Recall this was part of the long running crusades .
        
        How is it that in the west today Saladin’s and Mamluk victories in the Levant and subsequent expulsion of Christians are celebrated by academics and leftists and yet in the west we are still constantly treated to the old theme of those nasty ‘racist’ Spaniards, Ferdinand and Isabella.
        
        And isn’t it , from a debate point of view , interesting how in the 1920’s “peace” between Turkey and Greece was meant to be guaranteed by the wholesale exchange of religious populations , millions of them from both sides whereby Turkey was well on the road to monoculturalism , and now Islamism , while the Greeks ( and Europe) are expected by the same leftists to accept millions of migrants to their shores……..with open arms and wallets.
        
        More recently the western allies presided over Stalins genocide and ethnic cleansing of Germanic people from across central and eastern Europe in 1945 and subsequently . This was done in the name of ensuring “peace” and yet I hear not a quibble , but still the left go on relentlessly about Spanish or Christian ‘racism’ 500 years ago.
        
        And there are many many more examples of population movements in geopolitical events following war , revolution, change .
        
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        August 17, 2024 10:22am
      - Don Beckett
        
        Benedict, that is crap. The Moors invaded Spain from North Africa in an attempt to take over that part of Europe, including France. They were stopped at the Battle of Tours in- I think from memory 712 AD. It was a long & exhaustive war that lasted centuries.
        Islam has been the enemy of Christianity since its inception in 632 AD – particularly Catholocism which was the only form of Christianity until the Reformation in the 16th.century.
        It was not racism – it was & still is a religious war.
        
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        August 17, 2024 11:01am
      - Nukuleka
        
        [Leave out the name calling please. mod]
        
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        August 17, 2024 11:01am
      - Jack5
        
        Racism and other types of “groupism” seem to be characteristic of all human beings.
        
        Perhaps it comes from thousands of years of evolution, with tiny groups of cave people with clubs and limited food, driving off neigbouring groups to survive.
        
        Jonathan Swift satirised the trait with his dispute between those who cracked their breakfast eggs at the big end, and those who cracked them at the small end.
        
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        August 17, 2024 11:08am
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        “They were stopped at the Battle of Tours in- I think from memory 712 AD”
        
        Cripes, Don, you’re older than I thought!
        
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        August 17, 2024 12:43pm
      - ChristopherW2
        
        About the Moors – adding some context for a couple of the commenters in this sub-thread:
        
        The Moors were not the people who originally conquered Visigothic Spain; that was the Ummayyids (the ones who fought at the battle of Tours); after their initial ferocity, the Ummayyids showed themselves an enlightened, cultured people, who were admired, praised and frequently visited by their Christian neighbours (“a jewel in the eye of God,” one European abbess them).
        
        Unable to remain united (an ever-recurring lesson in history), the Ummayyids were themselves later replaced by the Moors, some of whom they had introduced to Iberia as mercenaries; the Moors at the that time practised a harsh, joyless religion, with a hatred of the ‘excesses’ of Ummayyid high culture, an attitude similar to the Iranian Mullahs, the Taliban, the early Protestants, the Red Guards, the Greens…
        
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        August 17, 2024 12:58pm
    - Sacha
      
      ‘brightest, most intelligent, and aspirational youth’ ?
      I’d say ‘short-sighted, and focussed on self serving’ more like.
      
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      August 17, 2024 12:03pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      So how does Nats changing there mind help anything? Let’s not beat around the bush that NZF are bitterly opposed to this
      
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      August 17, 2024 12:23pm
  - leoj
    
    Luxon is the leader of the namby-pamby party and needs to be taken behind the shed and told a few home truths.
    
    However, along with his entire party they are shit scared of maori, inherited from another who was similarly shit-scared, John Key.
    
    Just go back a few days to when Key spoke at their convention. Piss weak – yes but shit-scared too.
    
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    August 17, 2024 10:02am
  - Paulus
    
    Sadly I can see my lifetime vote not going to National if this stalls which appears likely.
    About time New Zealand came into the real world and not the original Pacificas, where they came from in recent times.
    I have travelled most of the Islands and enjoy their what can be called for example FaaSamoa, but they love that life of easy living.
    Maori remain still primitive in their concepts of many of their vocal leaders, whereas many have suceeded well in today’s New Zealand world.
    Remember it often remains all about Money.
    
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    August 17, 2024 10:08am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Again you completely over look the fact that NZF are completely opposed to the bill that incidentally has yet to be drafted.
    
    They are sticking to the coalition agreement, and right there it’s Seymour’s fault, he signed up to that piss weak plan
    
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    August 17, 2024 12:01pm
- Philview
  
  Watching TVNZ News last a visitor to these shores would have thought ACT’s position came out of nowhere. The last Government was booted out in the middle of orchestrating a power transfer away from democratic control that has to be reacted to in some way but this is not mentioned by the media.
  
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  August 17, 2024 8:47am
- Yvette
  
  Chuck
  His [ACT’s] Treaty Principles Bill is therefore an attempt to successfully define in the 21st century, in a multi-cultural and ethnically-blended modern New Zealand, just what is meant by that seemingly innocent phrase, “the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.” It was first inserted into a piece of legislation 1975 and over the last half century has turned out to be political dynamite.
  
  So Peter William’s “define the ‘principles’” is similar to my request: define an actual English version of the bloody Treaty in the first place – one where the 27 Translators, Morgan, Mahutas, Maori Kingii, ngai Tahu, Shane Jones, Winston, and David Seymour are in agreement that what is produced is an accurate translation in English of the Maori agreement the Chiefs signed in 1840 – and is what Maori are committed to.
  
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  August 17, 2024 8:51am
  - Paulus
    
    When are we going to see this Bill
    – has it ben published ?
    or are we hearing usual Maori crap?
    
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    August 17, 2024 10:11am
    - Yvette
      
      Paulus, November apparently
      
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      August 17, 2024 11:27am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      The bill has not even been drafted yet, that is what makes the tribunals findings so laughable.
      
      Seymour told HDA the bill is not even drafted
      
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      August 17, 2024 12:26pm
  - Mike
    
    If the learned jurists of the USA cannot agreee on how to interpret their constitution, written in one language, why would you expect New Zealanders to agree on the ‘correct’ interpretation of documents that were not consistently translated or explained in 1840?
    
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    August 17, 2024 10:14am
    - Yvette
      
      Mike, I was asking if Maori can agree on and publicly supply what they see as being a definitive English version of the Maori Treaty, which was signed at Waitangi – a request that they produce what they are arguing be enshrined in legislation, as stated by the Maori Kingii.
      
      They very frequently refer to it, but where is it?
      
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      August 17, 2024 11:32am
      - Dave
        
        Why should all Maori electors agree on a definitive English translation?
        
        Since the Tiriti is used as a justification and a proxy for differing contemporary political aspirations, accused by some of mistranslation, and since about half of Maori electors are on the general roll, unanimous Maori opinion is unlikely, as would be non-Maori acquiescence in any version which challenged the democratic equality of individuals.
        
        Mike is right. One only has to look at the varying court interpretations of the first and second amendments or the Dred Scott decision to realise that our differences today will not be miraculously resolved by minute exegesis of the Tiriti/Treaty.
        
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        August 17, 2024 12:55pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        I think you will find that the US Constitution is a much more elaborate & complex document than the Treaty.
        
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        August 17, 2024 1:47pm
    - NothingLeft
      
      The reason they can’t agree is because many modern jurists of the left (ie most of them) want to find any excuse for ignoring or working around what is set out in the constitution. They hate constitutional originalists because they are right (in both senses of the word)
      
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      August 17, 2024 2:34pm
- AitchW
  
  Well written, well reasoned and without the hysteria constantly and repeatedly seen from the liberal left, this article hits the nail on the head.
  If the National party continues to refuse to support Seymour’s bill past first reading then it is for purely political reasons, reasons which fly in the face of logic and, well, reason.
  How do we, the largely silent right, impress on the government our fervent view that National must support the bill for the sake of our country’s future prosperity and peace?
  
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  August 17, 2024 8:58am
  - Mike
    
    “for purely political reasons”
    Imagine that, a political party taking a political position for political reasons.
    Do you imagine that Seymour is reinterpreting the treaty principles for non-political reasons?
    
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    August 17, 2024 10:06am
    - ISeeRed
      
      Stop the gaslighting. There is no “reinterpreting” because there are no stated principles in the original treaty to interpret in the first place.
      
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      August 17, 2024 2:11pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Maori DID cede sovereignty.
  
  Article One:
  “The Chiefs of the confederation of united tribes, and the other Chiefs who have not joined the confederation, c͟e͟d͟e͟ to the Queen of England forever the entire sovereignty of their country.”
  
  The three Articles from the original Treaty are very simple to understand. Anything else is not original.
  
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  August 17, 2024 9:08am
  - Mike
    
    How was the term ‘sovereignty’ translated and explained for them, Steve?
    
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    August 17, 2024 10:07am
    - PurplePen
      
      Some extracts from William Colenso’s notes. He was the only person in the tent the day the ToW was signed who actually took notes of what was said …
      
      Tareha, chief of the Ngatirehia Tribe, rose, and, with much of their usual national gesticulation, said, ” No Governor for me -for us Native men. We, we only are the chiefs, rulers. We will not be ruled over What! thou, a foreigner, up, and I down! Thou high, and I, Tareha, the great chief of the Ngapuhi tribes, low! No, no; never, never.
      
      As each chief affixed his name or sign to the treaty the Governor shook him by the hand, saying (in Maori), “He iwi tahi tatou” (“We are [now] one people”), at which the Natives were greatly pleased. All that were disposed having signed, the Natives gave three cheers for the Governor.
      
      After some little time Te Kemara came towards the table and affixed his sign to the parchment, stating that the Roman Catholic bishop (who had left the meeting before any of the chiefs had signed) had told him “not to write on the paper, for if he did he would be made a slave.”
      
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      August 17, 2024 10:52am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      You know the website to go to for finding this out Mike.
      
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      August 17, 2024 10:59am
    - Nukuleka
      
      Are you implying that Maori aren’t intelligent enough to comprehend the term ‘sovereignty’, Mike? They certainly didn’t seem to have any such comprehension issues in understanding the term when applied to Christianity.
      
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      August 17, 2024 11:05am
  - David Garrett
    
    Sir Apirana Ngata wrote a paper in 1922 explaining the meaning and effect of the treaty. He was adamant that Maori had ceded sovereignty forever in 1840, and told his fellow Maori that if they didn’t like it, to blame their ancestors.
    
    Interestingly for me, he thought Article Three – the one making Maori citizens of Britain – was by far the most important of the three. He doesn’t say much about Article Two.
    
    Anyone who would like to read the paper can email me at: d.garrett@xtra.co.nz
    
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    August 17, 2024 11:11am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      It’s available online:
      
      https://www.nzcpr.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/TreatyOfWaitangiBySirApiranaNgata.pdf
      
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      August 17, 2024 1:46pm
    - Colville
      
      DG
      Could make for a great opinion post on here??
      
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      August 17, 2024 1:50pm
- PurplePen
  
  From Peter Williams, Waitangi Tribunal is quoted “They retained their authority to make and enforce law over their people or their territories…”.
  
  They’re correct, see section 71 of the NZ Constitution Act 1852 below. The words to note before are “should for the present” … the arrangement was temporary, and they were to govern themselves and manage dealings with each other themselves. Not anyone else. By all means let whatever chiefs remain, have them govern their maori people, but those chiefs are then governed by the crown.
  The 1852 Act was then effectively removed by s26 of the Constitution Act 1986.
  
  71. And Whereas it may be expedient that the laws, customs, and usages of the aboriginal or native inhabitants of New Zealand, so far as they are not repugnant to the general principles of humanity, should for the present be maintained for the government of themselves, in all their relations to and dealings with each other, and that particular districts should be set apart within which such laws, customs, or usages should be so observed:
  
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  August 17, 2024 11:07am
BarryB

Ive been watching and listening to stories about how the wine industry all around the world is having a hard time. In Australia and the US and France the industry is in the doldrums and slowly going broke.

Ive noticed in recent times how cafes have removed white and brown sugar from their table – leaving only raw sugar (true raw sugar is banned in some countries as its not treated at high enough temperatures and usually contains remnants of field mice and cane toads in the mixture).
The other day when I got some sushi I noticed that the ginger tasted awful – they had removed sugar from the treatment.
And the wine producers have fallen for the current fashion of hating sugar (weve been through the hate fat era, then the hate salt era ….) and the wines they produce are more and more tasting like battery acid as they ferment all the sugar out of the grape juice – or harvest when the grapes are sour – and they are marketing wines that simply dont taste ‘drinkable’. Traditionally Riesling was a sweet wine – but no longer. They are sour tasting mutants.
It just goes to show that falling for a current fashion isnt always supported by those who supposedly want it. All those impressionable wine drinkers who think that they dont like sugar dont see the result in the crappy wines they are buying and stop drinking it.
Stupid wine makers.
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August 17, 2024 8:36am
- Colville
  
  I dont know what you drink but I dont belive good red wine has ever had much residual sugar in it.
  There was a bit of a push a while back with Oz making reds that were more palatable to women…so sweeter… the idea being one bottle to please him and her. Didnt work.
  As for Rieslings etc being sweet… 99% of that crap goes into casks or into tanks to get sent to UK for cheap plonk.
  
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  August 17, 2024 10:27am
- Quail
  
  BB
  Winemakers use sugar when the Brix level of the fruit is not high enough at harvest. Usually because of not enough sun.
  The wine makers have to put in bulk sugar when the brix levels are not high enough due to seasonal variations. Brix measures must (glucose) in wine grapes which determines how much alcohol a wine will have.
  The big question is whether or not the area the vineyard is situated is actually climatically suitable for wine production.
  
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  August 17, 2024 7:15pm
mandk

It is three years until the rugby world cup, but the All Blacks are selecting players will almost certainly not still be playing by then. I have in mind TJ Perenara and Sam Cane.

Can anyone explain why younger players are not being developed instead?

I can’t see it matters how many games we lose this season, if the younger players are given the experience they need.
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August 17, 2024 8:38am
- Colville
  
  The ABs should never ever lose a game. That is the first rule. refer to first rule before applying to be a selector.
  
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  August 17, 2024 10:28am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Perinatal is gone and that’s good, I would seriously try and hold on to Cane, you will see tonight the difference in intensity. People don’t like Cane sadly because he is no MaCaw, but watch his defensive work, his tight ball game , he is by far the best flankers we have, no wonder they are trying to get Frizzle back
  
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  August 17, 2024 12:33pm
- leoj
  
  Best haka.
  
  Not the best rugby.
  
  A serious disconnect.
  
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  August 17, 2024 2:21pm
kowtow

Further to Spartacus Oblivious’ ‘Hold the Front Page’ yesterday , the Herald today leads on the front page with some guy missed a bus in LA and hasn’t been ‘punished’ yet.

This while the nation faces literally a litany of crises , emergencies and if the same media were to be believed an existential threat to our very existence on this planet if people insist on using their utes to tow their boats to the launching ramps or if we don’t give up our gas bar be ques.

And to add insult to injury the very same paper that used its front page to attack a sports man for missing a bus then ran an opinion piece by one of their own reporters whose brother is a footie player , which amounted to a monumental whinge about how badly sportsmen are treated here by our tall poppy syndromists , proving that when it comes to our te legacy media pardy ; you can have your cake and eat it!
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August 17, 2024 8:49am
- Mike
  
  If a paper upset me as much as the Herald does you, I just wouldn’t read it.
  
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  August 17, 2024 10:16am
  - Nukuleka
    
    If a blog such as Kiwiblog upset me as much as you so frequently tell us it does you, then I just wouldn’t read it either, Mike. Pot kettle black.
    
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    August 17, 2024 11:08am
    - Mike
      
      Kiwiblog doesn’t upset me. It entertains me.
      
      3 9
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      August 17, 2024 1:20pm
  - Sacha
    
    Horses for courses, Mike. I’m with you on this one.
    
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    August 17, 2024 12:10pm
Scooter

I can’t believe that Te Papà is only now going to charge people an entry fee, same for the Hamilton Gardens (I think in Sep they will start charging). Do the people that run these places not realise that overseas pretty much all places that attract tourists charge a fee.
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August 17, 2024 8:51am
Jack5

Mr Bean – Rowan Atkinson – tackles the “creeping culture of censoriousness,” the intolerance that threatens freedom of speech.

‘We need to build our immunity to taking offence,” he says in this short video.

https://youtu.be/xxWMhB4Cfm0?si=uAVcOGdS0NNrZjPO
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August 17, 2024 9:02am
- NothingLeft
  
  Amazing how his speech from a decade back is everywhere in last few days.
  
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  August 17, 2024 2:37pm
Damocles11

National are being their Labour Lite selves, ACT are doing their best…..NZ First are the real glaring disappointment, talking a big game on the Waitangi Tribunal but delivering no change at all. Winston is content being Foreign Minister and Shane Jones speaks many fine words but the action just isn’t there.
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August 17, 2024 9:05am
Jack5

A gruesome story in Britain, with an NZ twist – the five kids a pair abandoned in this country.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13750781/rotting-mummified-body-garden-girl-mysterious-Welsh-community-neighbours-murder-untold-story-Body-Garden-TV-series.html
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August 17, 2024 9:12am
- lifesgood
  
  I remember when their child abandonment story broke in New Zealand. Unspeakably evil woman with a compliant husband. Poor kids.
  
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  August 17, 2024 12:27pm
Bridgenag

Forgot whether I posted this….

New Zealand: Let’s do the time warp again!
“Health New Zealand” publishes their new pandemic plan

https://open.substack.com/pub/rwmalonemd/p/new-zealand-lets-do-the-time-warp?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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August 17, 2024 9:15am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Yes you did. I take it that you do not like it?
  
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  August 17, 2024 9:24am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  “detain persons in isolation by force and to continue to do so until necessary prescribed preventive treatment has been administered. You know what that means.”
  
  Nope, we are not going there. Forced testing of immunisation products is Nuremberg all over.
  
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  August 17, 2024 9:55am
  - JackRabbit
    
    Now we know why Labour shut down Marsden Point. You need decent Tar to make the Feathers stick.
    
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    August 17, 2024 3:05pm
slightlyrighty

“We gave Miriam the Presidential Medal of Freedom. That’s the highest award you can get as a civilian, it’s the equivalent of the Congressional Medal of Honor, but civilian version. It’s actually much better, because everyone gets the Congressional Medal of Honor – that’s soldiers. They’re either in very bad shape because they’ve been hit so many times by bullets, or they’re dead,”

Donald J Trump. 15 August 2024.
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August 17, 2024 9:42am
- kowtow
  
  And…….
  
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  August 17, 2024 10:28am
- Its only I
  
  Bone spur Trump, the coward. He is dropping supporters faster than his shyt media meme stock.
  
  If Trump ever stopped lying we would never here from it again.
  
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  August 17, 2024 11:10am
  - kowtow
    
    I’ll see your “Bone Spur Trump” and raise you, ‘Heels Up Harris’.
    
    12 4
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    August 17, 2024 11:55am
    - Its only I
      
      How is that relevant?
      
      You seem to think not liking Trump means liking Harris. Why am I limited to just two options..still better than your limiting yourself to just one man.
      
      Believe it or not some still think not liking Trump is a right they still have…sad Trumpists don’t, especially those who talked the big talk about the Jacinda lovies then go on to cancel anyone who suggests Trump doesn’t represent conservatives in any way…Fing hippocrates.
      
      Never Trumpers couldnt give a F about who the lefties run. What’s important to the massive number of non maga republicans is getting rid of the orange wanker Trump, his 2025 shit show and those who have taken brown nosing up to the level of motorboating their way in to kiss the ring….golden knee pads are provided.
      
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KZsW0fLu70
      
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJI_1uqCjmc&t=21s
      
      Your boi is hunkering down…
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC1UWEEDV_o
      
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      August 17, 2024 2:41pm
      - kowtow
        
        It’s as relevant as your bone spur jibe .
        
        Don’t get too excited by my post though , you sound like your Trump obsession is going to get the better of you.
        
        Those knee pads might be useful to Kakler though , from the rumour mill she’d have found them useful…..
        
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        August 17, 2024 3:08pm
- Steve Todd
  
  kowtow is correct, slightly: “And…….?”
  
  I referred to Trump’s disgusting comparison at 4:50PM yesterday, here: https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2024/08/general_debate_16_august_2024.html/comment-page-1#comment-3605405, making my feelings about it very clear.
  
  What was your purpose in posting your comment? What are your feelings about what Trump said?
  
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  August 17, 2024 11:19am
  - Inandout
    
    Was it Biden who left behind US soldiers in Afghanistan and rewarded that country with billions of dollars worth of brand new fighting equipment? In some countries that would be seen as a traitorous move.
    
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    August 17, 2024 12:39pm
  - slightlyrighty
    
    Firstly. I am disgusted by this comment. The fact that it was in reference to a Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient who was awarded the medal for donating to Trump makes it even more so.
    
    The fact that a Party like the GOP could elect a man like Trump to run for Commander in Chief, not Once or Twice, but three times? This beggars belief. Imagine what the relationship between the Joint Chiefs and Trump might be.
    
    Republicans can do better than this?
    
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    August 17, 2024 1:48pm
    - kowtow
      
      Wow , strong stuff .
      
      Unlike so many other Presidents Trump didn’t send soldiers to die for some political point scoring and nor has he turned any countries into failed states .
      
      I’d be a bit more emotional , if I could really be bothered , about the mass human misery that so many US Presidents of both parties have visited across swathes of humanity in relatively recent times than some poorly chosen utterance of a man known for saying silly things , surely .
      
      Oh and talking of misery Biden/Harris and other Demo crat open border types have unleashed a crime wave upon their cities and country . Now there’s something one can be genuinely “disgusted” at ( again if one felt so inclined) .
      
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      August 17, 2024 3:02pm
    - Ghost
      
      You’re disgusted why? It really has nothing to do with any of us. But if you want to get down to it he isn’t attacking veterans. What he is saying is that by the time someone gets the congressional medal of honour the they are either dead or badly injured, the presidential medal of freedom is better because they don’t get injured to get it.
      
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      August 17, 2024 3:22pm
      - Mike
        
        You have to be kidding. Imagine if our PM said that the ONZ was ‘better’ than the VC.
        
        3 5
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        August 17, 2024 4:11pm
      - Steve Todd
        
        @Ghost @ 3:22PM
        
        Oh, Ghost, that was totally beneath you.
        
        Perhaps you should check this out, from Jesse Dollemore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkejiiLo_ZM [13:07].
        
        And there are several other clips on YouTube today in similar vein.
        
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        August 17, 2024 5:43pm
      - Benedict Yu
        
        And you don’t think that sounds insane?
        
        3 3
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        August 17, 2024 8:26pm
      - Ghost
        
        Actually Benedict I don’t, I completely agree, a medal you don’t have to get shot up or killed to get is better than a medal you only get if you’re dead or badly injured. The fact you can’t only get that medal by being killed or shot up is insane and sad
        
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        August 17, 2024 8:37pm
    - Steve Todd
      
      @slightlyrighty @ 1:48PM
      
      That’s more like it. Thanks, slightly.
      
      But I have to say, this response (or something similar) should have been incorporated into your 9:42AM comment.
      
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      August 17, 2024 5:29pm
imalwaysright

Taking the piss.
Afghan refugees go back to Afghanistan for holidays!
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/08/16/asylum-seekers-in-germany-risk-deportation-holiday-country/
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August 17, 2024 9:44am
- JackRabbit
  
  Afghan refugees go back to Afghanistan for holidays!
  
  “Brewery fined $1M for failed health and safety after man on Brewery Tour drowned after falling into a vat of Guinness. Health and Safety Officials said he fell in on closing time, and was not discovered until morning. They also said he suffered badly, as the security camera footage showed drowning took 9 hours, punctuated by 11 times he got out to go to the toilet.”
  
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  August 17, 2024 3:14pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    You?
    
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    August 17, 2024 4:11pm
  - kowtow
    
    ‘An investigation has been launched at Belfast Zoo after it was reported that a worker had been ‘locked in’ to the lion enclosure.’
    
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13746127/Belfast-Zoo-locked-lions-staff-member-enclosure.html
    
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    August 17, 2024 4:44pm
    - imalwaysright
      
      Kow
      Am I going nuts?
      I’m trying to make a point about aberrant Afghans, and on one side Jackrabbit is telling me the best way to top myself is in a vat of Guinness, and on the other you are hinting at me turning myself into cat food!!
      Glitch in the matrix?
      
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      August 17, 2024 5:18pm
      - JackRabbit
        
        Sheesh! I get your point, I’m on your side but you didn’t get my dark humour. Do I have to spell it out?
        
        ~~“Afghan refugees go back to Afghanistan for holidays!”~~ It was actually: Asylum seekers in Germany risk deportation for secretly holidaying in their home country
        
        So clearly a piss-take. NOT refugees, but possibly infiltrators. You don’t seek asylum refugee status at a cost to the receiving country and then sneak back home for holiday.
        
        Especially as urgently fleeing a “savage” country usually means leaving your assets behind and often most of your money. It shows that (a) they were never in any danger in the first place or (b) they have ulterior motives.
        
        My story was also a piss-take. The man was never in any real danger as he would be alive if he didn’t keep jumping back in the vat, his ulterior motive to get free beer.
        
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        August 17, 2024 7:44pm
      - imalwaysright
        
        Understand JR,
        I got the humour, but the humour in my reply clearly didn’t make the journey to the print!
        Cheers
        
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        August 17, 2024 8:28pm
surfing

The problem with this country is that we don’t put people like this dog owner in prison, people aren’t held responsible for their actions, and consequences are a joke.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/tairua-dog-attack-victim-and-locals-fuming-over-thames-coromandel-district-council-lack-of-action/G7NW4ZIRG5FP5IKPTYNYDLHSZQ/

His excuse for owning vicious unregistered dogs?

“I couldn’t afford to have the dogs registered, I am poor, I have no money” Anscombe said”

Is he sorry?
““I haven’t apologised, absolutely not. I have nothing in particular to say to her at this stage, there is a lot more to this”

The council and police have failed their community.

I bet the moron owns an ute with no wof or reg, with a F*** 1080 sticker
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August 17, 2024 9:47am
- David Garrett
  
  surfing: How does a person with no money feed several dogs??
  
  15 1
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  August 17, 2024 10:39am
  - greybeard
    
    They eat passers-by.
    
    7 4
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    August 17, 2024 11:42am
- sherp
  
  Now imagine if the NZ tax payer wasn’t the one liable to cover the cost of suxh injuries and if you could actually sue those responsible to recover cost…
  
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  August 17, 2024 11:04am
- Damocles11
  
  His excuses don’t make any sense. The dogs are vicious because they are unregistered are they. Yeah, because everyone knows that a registered dog is a passive and obedient dog. 🤦🏻‍♂️
  
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  August 17, 2024 12:42pm
Pope Punctilious II

I’m not sure why we need a Human Rights Commission. But if we must have one, this announcement sounds like good news.

Stephen Rainbow (new HR Commissar) had the temerity to warn about the danger of trans ideology being smuggled into the so-called Conversion Practices ban (and he was proved right), so he sounds clear-eyed and unafraid to speak his mind. I know less about Melissa Derby (new RR Commissar), but she was apparently a founding member of the Free Speech Union.

Even if they don’t eventually live up to expectations, they’ve got to be an improvement on the last two governments’ appointments.
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August 17, 2024 10:16am
- Chuck Bird
  
  I met Melissa on a couple of occasions. I was impressed.
  
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  August 17, 2024 10:37am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Melissa Derby has written some damn good opinion pieces about the importance of reading in our Education system, including the value of structured literacy.
  
  https://nzareblog.wordpress.com/2023/11/16/what-literacy-is/
  
  But one of her stunners is on the value of being brought up with simple routines and expectations of good behaviour.
  
  https://commonroomnz.com/dr-melissa-derby-is-the-system-stacked-against-some-kiwis/
  
  But to suggest that Māori have no agency in determining the course of their lives is not only wrong, it is actually the very worst thing you could do to a group of people. To put it bluntly, if I wanted to destroy a group, this is exactly what I would have them believe – that the system is stacked against them and is set up to make them fail. I would have them believe that they have no agency in their lives, and no ability to influence the outcomes they experience
  
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  August 17, 2024 10:53am
  - Pope Punctilious II
    
    Thanks Maggy. I see Derby is a lecturer at Waikato Uni – it’s a pleasant surprise that to an NZ University publicly espousing such heretical views without fear of losing her funding or her job.
    
    I think the government is to be congratulated for their boldness is making these sensible appointments.
    
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    August 17, 2024 11:34am
- ISeeRed
  
  Yep. 80-90% of teenagers with gender dysphoria turn out gay so “transitioning” during adolescence is literally conversion therapy. And the ones who support erasing gays from existence are the same ones that went on and on about that “Don’t Say Gay” bill in Florida. Anyone who supports cutting breasts and genitals off barely legal teens is a fucking disgrace to humanity. Truly degenerate and ignorant.
  
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  August 17, 2024 2:23pm
  - JackRabbit
    
    “80-90% of teenagers with gender dysphoria turn out gay.”
    
    Define “gender dysphoria.” And from whose perspective?
    
    One of the great things about children is their hormones have not yet kicked in, and often view things from a sexually indifferent point of view. Especially when they are getting used to the type of body they were born into.
    
    If you have adults that are not sexually well adjusted they can interpret that indifference as “gender dysphoria.”
    
    There are a normal settling in periods for a range of biological and semantic functions. And for good reason. If babies were born with sex organs fully developed like mice, we’d have a real problem, as they’d be at it like rabbits or mice within a month or so.
    
    Males usually do not pop out of the womb as horn dogs looking for a shag in the first day, week, month, year or usually decade. And neither do females.
    
    https://glasbergen.b-cdn.net/wp-content/gallery/baby-cartoons/baby-12.gif
    
    We should allow children their sexually indifferent childhood, free from all the pressure, and free from the grooming of sexual deviants.
    
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    August 17, 2024 3:45pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

The Taxpayer’s Union.

ACC praying away injuries.
Taxpayer funded holidays.
Growth in bureaucrat’s wages.

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/newsletter_20240816
10 2
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August 17, 2024 10:25am
- Damocles11
  
  New Zealand is broke and broken. 2020 – 2023 destroyed this country.
  
  ‘ACC has spent $10.7 million on rongoā Māori ‘treatments’ since 2020.’
  
  15 2
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  August 17, 2024 10:37am
  - AitchW
    
    I wonder if the practitioners of rongoa Maori are required to furnish reports on the efficacy of individual treatments? Is that information publically available or by OIA request?
    How many patients have been required to seek further treatment following rongoa Maori sessions?
    Or are I being racist for asking these questions?
    
    7 3
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    August 17, 2024 5:59pm
    - Mike
      
      Please report back here on the results of your enquiries.
      
      3 6
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      August 17, 2024 6:31pm
  - Ghost
    
    $10 million, shit, that’s hardly anything. But if it doesn’t interest you, don’t use it
    
    2 5
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    August 17, 2024 6:47pm
- kowtow
  
  Funny innit , how te media ( and many many others) got really exercised and going against “pray away the gay” , but when it comes to mumbo jumbo relating to injuries , crickets.
  
  13 3
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  August 17, 2024 10:40am
  - Conservatarian
    
    They’re just Following The Science (TM)
    
    3 3
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    August 17, 2024 3:01pm
Chuck Bird

I am generally pro-Isreal but unimpressed with what they allow the settlers to get away with on the West Bank.
7 8
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August 17, 2024 10:39am
- David Garrett
  
  I am entirely with you on that one Chuck…Gosh, it’s almost as if Israel wishes to keep conflict alive and well there…
  
  7 6
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  August 17, 2024 10:41am
- kowtow
  
  And Iran has stepped up hanging opponents , any comments or impressions .
  Jews have been ethnically cleansed from across North Africa and the whole of the Middle East since 1948 , how does that leave you impressed .
  They were invaded again on Oct 7 and terrorism on the western banks of the Jordan has exploded exponentially in support of the Hamas/Tehran war on Israel .
  
  There is a context .
  
  Basically survival is what’s happening and it’s a struggle as old as humanity itself , and yes it’s ugly .
  
  13 2
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  August 17, 2024 10:47am
  - Chuck Bird
    
    I know a Jew in NZ who was in the IDF and was not supportive of what Isreal does on the West Bank.
    
    3 13
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    August 17, 2024 11:04am
    - kowtow
      
      So what .
      
      6 3
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      August 17, 2024 11:50am
    - Inandout
      
      I knew a Canadian who liked Justin.
      
      10 1
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      August 17, 2024 12:47pm
      - Biscuit
        
        Trudeau or Bieber?
        
        8 0
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        August 17, 2024 1:45pm
- An Old Kiwi
  
  They aren’t “allowing” the settlers to do it. The police/army etc are trying to arrest/stop them etc – but they’re also kinda busy dealing with attacks from Hezbollah, the PA, oh and Hamas.
  Eg the 12 Druze (ie not Jewish, but still Israeli citizens) kids killed about 3 weeks ago by Iranian-built Hezbollah rockets fired from Lebanon, while playing in a north Israel soccer field.
  
  7 2
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  August 17, 2024 11:46am
Jack5

Here’s entertaining NZ history video, especially for the people of Otago and Southland, after Woke downplaying of settler-forebearers as “colonisers”.

Toitu Otago Settlers Museum has put up a series of short (typically 7 min or 8 min) videos on YoutTube. They are well made, well narrated, and contain scenes from the UK as well as historic pictures from NZ.

Subjects are pioneer women and men, even goldfields bush rangers.

The video I link to below in less than eight minutes tells the story of Robert Stout, the Shetland Islander who became NZ Premier and Chief Justice, and brought scores and scores of other Shetlanders to the south as settlers.

Relevant to today, Stout was a staunch advocate of freedom of speech. He was Otago University’s first law lecturer, and was husband to a campaigner for women’s rights.

Stout left place names around Dunedin. One is “Maia” the Greek name for one of the stars in the Pleiades cluster (Maori Matariki). It was Stout’s pet name for his elder Daughter. Maia is on the western side of Otago Harbour. Maia has a “Norna Road,” named by Stout after the Norse goddess of time.

“Toitu” was controversially added to the title of the Otago Early Settlers Museum. It hasn’t ended the museum’s good work on pioneer settlers.

https://youtu.be/n7GlhHHoyjA?si=kNH3xBEgSJ-UPQqA
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August 17, 2024 10:50am
- Dougal10
  
  It should read “Toy 2 “as its upgrade came after the stadium which was” Toy 1″ for the DCC.
  
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  August 17, 2024 11:18am
- ISeeRed
  
  What does “toitu” mean and add?
  
  1 2
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  August 17, 2024 2:31pm
  - kowtow
    
    ‘The mana whenua name Toitu was given to the settlers’ museum board by the museum’s Ngai Tahu advisory group, which consists of mandated representatives from three Otago runanga and whanau groups’
    
    This was imposed in the face of huge support after “consultation” ( yeah right ) on a name , and the original was favoured for retention.
    
    So much for democracy.
    
    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/otago-settlers-museum-have-toitu-tag
    
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    August 17, 2024 3:29pm
nathie

Neighborhood Watch Warning Alert!!

Residents of Mount Eden are being warned about an angry senior citizen yelling at the clouds, warning about impending doom and to beware of “Americans”!

And to keep their cats inside in case slippers or cuddly panda bear and President Xi gift toys are thrown at them!

And a gentle reminder to the Eden Park event management team this is not the best time to be advocating for more concerts!

CCTV footage is being examined of the primary suspect who appears to bear a striking resemblance to …. former Prime Minister from decades ago, Helen Clark!

Although the evidence is so far circumstantial, Social Media (X/Twitter) profiles confirms a younger looking person also called Helen Clark is having a meltdown about Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Australian PM Albanese invoking the ghost of “ANZUS” … in which a cyber attack on one country may invoke a coordinated response by both countries.

Residents are warned that further outrage and excessive noise levels are likely to be heard across Mount Eden as Miss Clark’s typewriter furiously bangs out letters to the NZ Herald and other alt-Left media outlets condemning this attack on Miss Clark’s independent foreign policy legacy of the 1980’s!
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August 17, 2024 10:53am
- Jack5
  
  Helen Clark still on a typewriter?
  That would figure….
  Clickety clack, don’t come back …
  
  7 3
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  August 17, 2024 11:16am
  - Colville
    
    Takes real skill to balance a typewriter while riding a broom.
    
    4 2
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    August 17, 2024 1:58pm
- kevn
  
  nathie…. never fear, other avenues call her.
  https://www.downtoearth.kiwi/post/why-does-the-helen-clark-foundation-say-it-is-non-partisan-when-it-is-not-non-partisan-why-does-i?
  
  4 2
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  August 17, 2024 11:42am
Notsofast

Gender critical Stephen Rainbow is appointed to the Human Rights Commission by Paul Goldsmith.
This has enraged the cult. Rainbow is well qualified to understand the conversion therapy bill has inevitably led to an accelerated program of sterilizing gay children. Maybe the writing is on the wall for Lupron.

Who knew a name like Rainbow might come to the rescue.
13 2
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August 17, 2024 11:12am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Who is Lupron?
  
  4 0
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  August 17, 2024 12:38pm
  - Notsofast
    
    “Lupron® is a brand of leuprolide. This synthetic hormone treats symptoms of prostate cancer, early-onset puberty and other hormone-related conditions. This medicine comes as an injection that a healthcare provider will teach you how to safely inject into your body.”
    
    Seconded by the cult to block the puberty, reduce the IQ and generally turn a healthy young person into a deluded state sponsored life long patient. The life is shortened by about 15 years, though that remains to be confirmed.
    It is off label by FDA standards, and is used to sterilize sex offenders and rid them of the sexual urge.
    The children will never have sex.
    
    7 1
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    August 17, 2024 1:02pm
Pineapple Lumps

Benedict Yu states above “Christians have a long history of racism.”

Jesus, a Jew, gave his followers the mission to spread the good news that the Messiah had come to restore all people to God. Since then Christians have actively worked to cross racial, geographical, cultural, National, religious borders to share this good news with others. Because of this Christianity has spread across every continent in the world.

Often the spread of Christianity has been accompanied by education, health care, dramatic upheaval of social structures, resulting in societal benefits. This happened in England, this happened in NZ and this happened in Taiwan.

Racism on the other hand is something entrenched in humanity long before Christianity. We are inherently suspicious of other races whatever our background. We are programmed to recognise small differences in others rather than the much greater similarities. We are all capable of racism and it is possible to find examples of that throughout history. One of the earliest recorded examples is the enslavement of the Israelite people by the Egyptians.

So white people are most definitely capable of racism, as are yellow people, red people, brown people, black people, pink people etc. Christianity is a belief that transcends race. The fact we are all children of God, all with the same paternal and maternal genetic origin, is a philosophy to bring people together. Where Christians fall short of this is rightly condemned as hypocrisy but don’t be too tough we are only human after all.
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August 17, 2024 11:14am
- NoFax
  
  Only a person with principals can be a hypocrite. That’s why someone like John Key was never called a hypocrite and he was comfortable with that!
  
  2 2
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  August 17, 2024 3:36pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Trey Gowdy – What the FBI should be asking.
Cellphone footage of the Trump assassination attempt shooter. A member of the public got this when the Secret Service missed it. Many unanswered questions.

https://feedsnorth.com/watch-trey-gowdy-drops-truth-bomb-on-fbi-what-they-should-be-asking/
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August 17, 2024 12:23pm
- imalwaysright
  
  Not sure why you have 7 downticks.
  Gowdy has a good point about Trumps evidence. Maybe the Feds don’t want to complicate their self assessment!
  
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  August 17, 2024 4:27pm
I remember when

Paddy Gower: On Ice.
Paddy said there are 1,500,000,000 cattle on Earth (and 8,750,000 are in New Zealand).
Therefore for every 171 cattle/cows one of them will be on a farm in New Zealand.
So if we get rid of all our cows/cattle there will only be 1,491,250,000 left.

Well that solves that problem, doesn’t it?
12 3
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August 17, 2024 12:38pm
- kowtow
  
  Even the name of the show is particularly immature and dare I say inappropriate with the double entendre about narcotics.
  
  The damage it does in this country is unfathomable . Not funny.
  
  5 1
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  August 17, 2024 4:38pm
Jack5

The Palestinian black-and-white scarf, the keffiyeh, will become less popular in NZ if this happens to the graves of NZ soldiers …

The “Telegraph” reports:

“Hamas plotted to dig up the remains of British and Commonwealth troops buried in Gaza and blackmail the Government over their return, according to documents uncovered in the war-torn enclave.

“For more than a century The Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC), chaired by the UK Defence Secretary and supported by the Crown, has maintained a cemetery in central Gaza containing the remains of more than 3,000 Commonwealth troops from the First and Second World Wars.”

The newspaper says the plot to exhume the remains of the soldiers and hold them “prisoner” is detailed in a seven-page document, shared with The Telegraph by Israeli officials.

The Israelis believe it was written on or around Oct 5 2022 in response to comments made by the then-prime minister Liz Truss on her desire to move the British Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

Demands were to have included at least one of the following: a retraction of the Jerusalem statement; and evacuation of the soldier’s remains to cemeteries outside Gaza or the retrospective payment of land “lease fees” for the cemeteries dating back to 1917.

The graves will include those of New Zealanders killed fighting Turks in the NZ brigade of the Anzac Mounted Division in Gaza in World War 1.

These soldiers, who wore the same slouch hats as the Australian horsemen, were overwhelmingly country boys who grew up with horses.

They are commemorated in the Desert Mounted Corps memorial at Albany, West Australia, where troop convoys from Australia and New Zealand assembled before heading for the Middle East.

FOOTNOTE: Mike/Milky will pipe up with mention of the controversial Gaza village-massacre allegations against the NZ soldiers. He won’t mention that the NZ’ers ran wild after an Arab burglar murdered an NZ trooper, and that New Zealanders weren’t the only Allied soldiers who reacted.

The (Australian and NZ) Desert Mounted Corps memorial at Albany, 418km south-east of Perth:

https://monumentaustralia.org.au/content/directory/full/Desert_Mounted_Corps_Memorial-43673-90164
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August 17, 2024 12:55pm
- Inandout
  
  Jack, a despicable plan to say the least. If we are to fight fire with fire then what about raining down a thousand rashers of bacon or hundreds of gay magazines on Hamas troops in Gaza? I think the West is too soft in these matters.
  
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  August 17, 2024 2:22pm
- fightingtemeraire
  
  The CWGC maintains these cemeteries to a v high standard using local labour and these consider the soldiers there their sons and brothers.
  
  There have been instances where the CWGC expat staff have had to leave, and the locals have carried on maintaining the graves to the same standard.
  
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  August 17, 2024 2:45pm
- kowtow
  
  Funny how this BBC report doesn’t mention the desecrations in 2004 , revenge for Abu Graib .Only the Israeli , unintentional, damage from shell fire.( for which they’ve paid compensation)
  
  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-64344483
  
  3 2
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  August 17, 2024 2:53pm
- Mike
  
  Seems like Jacksie has some of the basics of the worst recorded war crime by NZ troops.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surafend_massacre?wprov=sfla1
  
  1 7
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  August 17, 2024 3:53pm
Gravelroad

Today I attended a local age-group rugby tournament.
There were hundreds of people there – old and young.
Grandson plays in the under 7 grade. But there were kids (girls and boys) younger than him in their own teams.
They had to play 3 rounds of the tournament – 20 minutes each time.
Some people might find this odd, but in a funny sort of way, it was an uplifting experience.
Lots of kids of different ages and abilities enjoying playing a sport – with no violence or negatives.
Some from small country schools, others from the larger urban schools and clubs, with their family members of all ages on the sidelines supporting them.
Even the youngest lined up at the conclusion of their games and did high-fives with the other players.
Same applies to the netball and football grades – also very well supported in our smallish town.
Not all of our society is aggrieved and disadvantaged.
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August 17, 2024 2:04pm
- Swifty
  
  Nice one Gravel.
  
  11 0
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  August 17, 2024 2:23pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350378197/even-got-rejected-kfc-desperate-jobseekers-battle-hundreds-applicants-one-role
I have some advice for this person , before he fronts-up for an interview:
Have a shower
Have a shave
Have a haircut
Lose the mask
Get some grown-ups’ clothes
11 3
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August 17, 2024 3:26pm
- kowtow
  
  ‘Labour leader Chris Hipkins said it was an especially bad time to implement such policies, given the economy was unstable and unemployment was increasing.
  
  He said it was unfair to amp up pressure on job seekers, given there were fewer jobs to go into.’
  
  No mention of the tens of thousands he brought in to compete with NZ “job seekers”.
  
  5 2
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  August 17, 2024 4:35pm
  - artemisia
    
    Also no mention by Mr Hipkins of the thousands of public sector jobs and vacancies created, some of which roles have now been classed as not required. Have to wonder if it was more important to keep unemployment numbers down than to deliver. Though we did have the Year of Delivery, the triumph of slogan over reality.
    
    Not to worry, it was only OPM.
    
    5 1
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    August 17, 2024 5:46pm
- info@cruzpro.com
  
  Employers at KFC or any business not requiring skilled workers are not likely to give skilled applicants an interview. This is because skilled employees would likely quit at the first opportunity when a better job offer comes along.
  
  6 0
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  August 17, 2024 4:46pm
  - artemisia
    
    And meantime be bored to sobs, not great for consistency or quality.
    
    4 0
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    August 17, 2024 5:48pm
Ghost

Hmmm, do turkey politicans watch Julie Ann Genter videos? Maybe old Mallard videos.

Mass brawl in Turkish parliament as pro-Erdogan MPs trade blows with opposition
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August 17, 2024 3:32pm
Swifty

Wow, they’ve really become demented over at The Standard:

https://thestandard.org.nz/chhour-needs-to-go/

See the comments.
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August 17, 2024 4:14pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  I’ll skip it thanks.
  
  6 0
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  August 17, 2024 5:40pm
  - Swifty
    
    Heh.
    
    4 0
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    August 17, 2024 6:24pm
NothingLeft

For those interested in why US polling has shifted in Harris’s favor in last two weeks, a critique of the ‘motivated’ polling being put forth by DNC aligned media by a right-aligned (Rasmussen) pollster. Effectively calling it out as yet another arm of the bullshitting DNC propaganda machine (and a snow-job):

https://youtu.be/wsRp8EdLeXA
2 3
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August 17, 2024 4:48pm
- Inandout
  
  NL, perhaps Hosking should be brought up to speed as he thinks Trump is losing, according to polls he has seen.
  
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  August 17, 2024 5:13pm
  - AitchW
    
    Hosking on Thursday morning ran through a number of polls and compared them with polls before Biden pulled the plug. Some of the polls were on the ‘battleground’ states. The trends between the two showed a marked improvement for the Democrats, so marked that a Harris victory looks likely in November.
    It would appear that, somehow, Harris is repeating the irrational adulation that Ardern enjoyed when Little lost his nerve.
    I’m no Trump fan, in fact I think the man is a narcissist buffoon but compared to
    Harris as President he’s streets ahead.
    God help America……
    
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    August 17, 2024 5:44pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    He might be. But I tend to treat everything coming out of the left’s mouthpieces (and those in their employ) with a large amount of skepticism these days.
    
    4 2
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    August 17, 2024 5:47pm
    - fernglas
      
      You don’t need anything coming out of the left’s mouthpieces to come to the conclusion that Trump is a narcissistic buffoon. It comes straight from his own
      
      2 6
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      August 17, 2024 6:23pm
    - AitchW
      
      Treat everything from every mouthpiece in America with skepticism. They are so deeply tribal, so very polarised that they all play fast and loose with the truth.
      I fear that we are heading the same way, the extremists on both sides do their best to cancel debate and stifle independent thought.
      Add to that the apartheid promoted by Maori extremists and we are on the verge of serious social disorder.
      
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      August 17, 2024 10:01pm
Surely Knott

Young Asian Assault Victim has PTSD and is seeking therapy.

10 days on from the Assault:
*Article gives no name of the offender.
* Police said the investigation into the incident remained ongoing but they were “not treating this as a hate-motivated crime”. So the police haven’t got anyone for the incident 10 days on. Seems strange. Isnt’ their CCTV? How can they know the motivation of the crime if the investigation is ongoing? Have they talked to the person who smashed the young girls face?
*National Party MP has reached out to the victims. Ah yeah fine. And then when will we see her reach out to the face smashers

Any word on the person who knocked down the elderly lady on federal street. Bet we won’t hear who did this one either. Nothing to see here. Not hate related. No description. No offender. And they wonder why people look to social media for the facts.
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August 17, 2024 5:39pm
- Ghost
  
  And why would Lu reach out to the face smasher? Nancy Lu has been working with the family, passing the information on to ministers and trying to help the family. Police have the cctv footage from the hotel.
  
  You don’t have a right to the information on the federal street attacker. He has and so does the victim a right to a fair trial. The fact he has been held in custody since his arrest shows there is far more to him.
  
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  August 17, 2024 6:13pm
  - Surely Knott
    
    Why should we know about violent criminals? Because true and accurate information is a key part of open justice, our democratic process, free speech and public safetwe are increasingly seeing important news and information not being made public.
    
    1 2
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    August 17, 2024 8:09pm
    - Ghost
      
      No, what is important is a fair trial. You don’t need to know any details prior to the trial.
      
      2 2
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      August 17, 2024 8:19pm
      - Surely Knott
        
        Great. I didn’t realise the federal st man was in custody – glad to hear it. Last I read he had simply been arrested. Hopefully the media will report the outcome of the case.
        
        Hope we see the same result for the person who has assaulted the little girl.
        
        We do sometimes have trials where the person is named before the final decision. It’s still considered a fair trial. Eg Polkinghorne, Lauren Dickason, the woman who said “she’ll be going home soon” to the Muslim woman in the Christchurch department store.
        
        2 1
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        August 17, 2024 8:33pm
Jack5

Rainbows v. Rainbow, or as Dolly Parton said: “The way I see it, if you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain.”

Was this a biased headline on the NZ Herald web site?

New human rights boss stands by
pro-Israel comments,
‘transphobia’ comments

This has been amended to:

New chief Human Rights
Commissioner Stephen Rainbow’s
pro-Israel Facebook posts,
‘transphobia’ accusations

But remaining as an overline is:

New human rights boss stands by pro-Israel comments, ‘transphobia’ accusations

But where is the evidence the subject is standing by “transphobia” comments?

The report says the new chief Human Rights Commissioner, Dr Stephen Rainbow, “was once accused of being ‘transphobic,’ prompting an investigation by his then-employer Auckland Transport.

Rainbow says an Auckland Transport investigation cleared him “over 2021 accusations of transphobia”.

The expression “stand by” normally implies a subject is holding firm on a position.

The Herald headliner seems to base this implication solely on Rainbow saying: “You don’t get to my age without having some opinions.”

The report indicates the issue centres on “a comment he [Dr Rainbow] made on a Rainbow Auckland Networking Group Facebook post asking people to sign a petition to ban gay conversion therapy.”

A side issue is whether a position on gay conversion therapy necessarily shows a person’s attitude towards “trans” people.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/new-chief-human-rights-commissioner-stephen-rainbows-pro-israel-facebook-posts-transphobia-accusations/LOFB5ENRDVFHNEWBWWK4MKNJUE/
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August 17, 2024 6:11pm
- Swifty
  
  “Speak against us, raise issues, even ask questions – and we’ll come for you.”
  
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  August 17, 2024 6:23pm

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Media Link: “A View from Afar” on the US elections.
Kiwipolitico
This will not end well
Offsetting Behaviour
Top 14 Predictions for Round 10
Stats Chat
Pretty (il)legal
Croaking Cassandra
Tory Whanau may have to sell Wellington mayoralty to make ends meet
The Civilian
The Accidental Engagement
Imperator Fish
Legal Beagle: Election '23: The Special Votes
Public Address
Making this movie might have been a mistake
Liam Hehir
Why I am retiring from political blogging
Kiwi FireWalker
Angie Warren-Clark: Meet the Newbies
Dan Moskovitz

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