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May 17, 2024 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 17 May 2024

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General Debate

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zulumonster

A plaintive call from the desperate wife of an NZDF soldier, castigating Judith Collins for the pitiful remuneration her husband receives.

https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/05/17/dear-minister-military-families-need-your-help/?mc_cid=127b146b32&mc_eid=b68775a22a

Or is there more to the story? While there is a rider at the foot of the story to say that she is a “former journalist” … it omits to mention she is still very much involved in the media, with her website stating she can provide “everything you need in the media and communications space” with the ability to “activate your voice and connect with a wider audience through the creation and implementation of a media strategy”
https://www.erinspeedy.com/
And the media wonder why they just aren’t trusted any more …
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May 17, 2024 8:08am
- cmm
  
  Sure, soldiers are not well paid. It is also a crappy life for a family man/person having to put put with deployments etc.
  
  But the transferable skills most soldiers have (responsibility, discipline, leadership etc) means they can often transition into civilian roles. Many do which is why retention in the military (especially NZ) is so low.
  
  For most people, soldiering should not be considered a long term career. Rather it is a life-phase suited to people who are young and single.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:01am
  - Flossie
    
    A family member was in the army for several years in the 1990s. He, and several others of his mates too, left as they never got deployed anywhere.
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:20am
    - cmm
      
      If he was in the army now he could be in Europe doing logistics and training Ukrainians for the meat grinder.
      
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      May 17, 2024 10:41am
      - Bevan
        
        Stupid Ukranians, how dare they defend their country.
        
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        May 17, 2024 10:56am
      - dh
        
        It’s a massive meat grinder. I have watched countless hours of Ukraine combat footage and most of it could be mistaken for WW2 and some sections of the contact line look like WW1. The difference is there is no place to hide now, you can fly a fpv kamakazi drone straight into a dugout. It’s a near peer conflict unlike Iraq or Afghanistan was and I don’t know why it has been allowed to happen. I guess Churchill is rolling in his grave
        
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        May 17, 2024 7:11pm
    - rockape
      
      Agree, I did 27 years and know that what a deployment/war was announced there was aggressive competition for unit going. When Falklands and the Gulf wars came up recruitment went trough the roof as did retention. For the first Gulf war I had just left the military and tried my hardest to re engage. It’s what you join and train for. NZ has a retention problem due to lack of deployments to combat zones.
      
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      May 17, 2024 4:47pm
  - john1234
    
    And where else can you get accommodated, fed, and your tertiary education fees paid on top of your salary? That’s worth at least $30k p.a. More if the training is expensive, e.g. pilots.
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:45am
    - cmm
      
      Certainly, it is potentially a great life for a young person. Expenses covered, disposable income.
      
      Even as a conscript in the South African Army was not too bad from that perspective.
      
      But it’s crap for family life never knowing if you’re going to get a call up to leave for 3 months leaving a young wife at home with a baby.
      
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      May 17, 2024 10:27am
    - Cassandra
      
      Her husband is neither accommodated nor fed unless he’s out in the field.
      
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      May 17, 2024 10:27am
      - cmm
        
        Don’t they do single quarters any more?
        
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        May 17, 2024 10:42am
      - Flossie
        
        Reading her complaint it appears that’s a pretty common occurrence (being out in the field or deployed)
        
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        May 17, 2024 12:54pm
    - sealegs
      
      Unless you are on field exercises or posted to a ship, food and accommodation is not free. I remmember the food back in the 80s and 90s on base it was not worth the deduction in your pay, and food on the ships was only slightly better. I couldn’t believe the quality and quantity when I left the service and went commercial fishing. No more leading hands smacking your hand with a serving spoon for daring to take more than 2 pieces of meat because you were starved. By all accounts not much has improved in the following years.
      
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      May 17, 2024 4:40pm
    - rockape
      
      From initial training to operational squadron it took two years and the cost was 4 million pounds in 1970. RAF figures.
      
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      May 17, 2024 4:50pm
    - julesnzuk
      
      John – The overwhelming majority of people in the NZ Army are not getting free tertiary education (it will be a small handful of officers only) and food and accommodation is subsidised but not free (unless deployed). A lot of people commenting on here who blatantly have no clue about the military.
      
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      May 17, 2024 8:23pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Yes, and most are taught a trade, or they use too, snd don’t they have free board snd lodgings, I know that is a bit rough, but it is a large cost I would have thought
    
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    May 17, 2024 10:55am
    - wsk12345
      
      They get very cheap housing (or used to). Yes it’s in shithole parts of the country mostly but it’s also half what anyone else pays.
      
      I had mates at a couple of bases years ago. The houses were old but fine – never saw anything like she mentions, more like a 60s state house. And my airforce mates mostly moved on to earn great $$$ after training for free.
      
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      May 17, 2024 1:28pm
  - slightlyrighty
    
    The recent raise in rents applied to NZDF personnel, in some cases up to 50%, would have a huge adverse effect on any household.
    
    The Navy used to have good housing stock in Auckland. Recently 90% of its housing stock was surrendered to local iwi as part of a treaty settlement, leaving only 27 houses on the north shore now owned by the NZDF, and anyone fortunate enough to get one of these is only allowed to reside in them for a maximum of 6 years.
    
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    May 17, 2024 12:12pm
- Wayne Mapp
  
  Why should this issue be turned into an attack on the media?
  She is simply telling her story as she sees it. Yes, as a journalist she is able to tell it more effectively than most, but her basic facts will be correct. $80,000 is about the wage of a Corporal. Her defence housing is likely to be of low quality. The rent will be pretty low so the increase in rent of 40% is probably a relatively small amount.
  Talk to any servicepeople with young families and this is the story they will tell you. It is why so many are leaving, often for greener pastures in Australia.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:07am
  - pdm
    
    WM – $80,000 plus Working for Families with two children is probably about $1,650 gross a week. Not bad dosh especially when you add on rent subsidies and what she earns as a Journalist which she conveniently omits.
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:47am
    - Cassandra
      
      Rent subsidies BS. They pay market. Service pay is rubbish.
      
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      May 17, 2024 10:37am
      - wsk12345
        
        They get very cheap rent.
        
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        May 17, 2024 1:29pm
  - Cassandra
    
    My question to her is why she didn’t write this a year or more ago. The current state of defence funding is, surely, a matter for the previous Labour government. And perhaps for previous Defence Ministers.
    
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    May 17, 2024 10:30am
    - wsk12345
      
      I doubt she could sell the story to them a year ago.
      
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      May 17, 2024 1:30pm
  - Jack5
    
    Perhaps NZ should be putting its limited resources into an army based more on what we used to call “territorials”.
    
    Boots that match our income, and certainly nothing to be ashamed about.
    
    In his memoir about modern war, American veteran and military theorist John Nagl tells of an exercise in which his unit of dug-in tanks was “wiped out” by missile-shouldering infantry from the Alaska National Guard.
    
    Meanwhile, Australia is advertising that it’s open to soldier inquiries from many countries. I imagine it might appeal especially to folk like young South Africans, Brits, and Ukrainians, as well as to New Zealanders.
    
    Possibility of adventure may be more important than pay in recruiting young people for an army. Adding even a tough of foreignness, such as Australia, may be a bonus.
    
    Its web site includes:
    
    The Army welcomes enquiries from current and ex-serving members of foreign defence forces who are interested in a new career and a new life in Australia.
    
    https://www.army.gov.au/join-army
    
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    May 17, 2024 10:46am
    - Ra Henare
      
      Seems being deployed is not working for some IDF Forces.
      https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news
      
      Five Israeli Soldiers Killed by IDF Tank Fire in Northern Gaza; Three Severely Wounded
      An initial investigation into reveals that IDF tanks, located dozens of meters away, identified a weapon and fired shells at an IDF force in northern Gaza’s Jabalya refugee camp
      
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      May 17, 2024 6:18pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        Did you get a little thrill when you read that?
        Mean while..
        https://legalinsurrection.com/2024/05/idf-footage-shows-hamas-terrorists-using-un-vehicles-in-rafah-shooting-civilians-seeking-aid-from-unrwa-compound/
        And
        https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/5/karem-abu-salem-crossing-closed-to-aid-convoys-after-attack-israeli-army
        
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        May 17, 2024 8:16pm
    - ISeeRed
      
      I’ve seen billboards around with Maori men sporting facial tattoos, South Asian with turbans, bad-ass boss babes and other sacred minorities of colour and gender. Obviously the NZDF has too many Euro Kiwi men applying. Like, eww, white guys give us the ick. Colour me unimpressed. Just another sign of the decline.
      
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      May 18, 2024 3:08pm
  - Damocles11
    
    Wayne, every man and his dog is now joining a pile-on about how bad it is in NZ. As someone else commented, where were all these stories over the last 6 years, and particularly the last 3?
    This is not a wealthy country. We had a mirage of wealth created by a property ponzi scheme due to unorthodox central bank policies since the GFC. The increase in house prices was due to increased retail bank lending. If they didn’t open the spigots and agree to the huge increases in the amounts being lent, none if it could have happened.
    Yes, we cannot afford to pay what Australia does. We had another illusion created by Robertsons massive borrowing, but it was unsustainable. A Wealth Tax won’t work here, as it has flopped when tried in Europe. A comprehensive CGT brought in around 2010 would have raised billions; it’s too late now.
    In the ‘real economy’ we export some basic commodities, but don’t have the vast mineral resources of Australia unfortunately.
    But none of this is new news.
    
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    May 17, 2024 11:03am
    - Ghost
      
      The article have been coming out for a few years, here is 3 that took 30 seconds on Google to find
      
      Article
      
      Article
      
      Article
      
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      May 17, 2024 11:09am
      - Bevan
        
        Admitedly I only gave the articles a quick scan, but I couldnt see where in the articles you’ve linked the authors were directly critical or called out the DefMin.
        
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        May 17, 2024 1:49pm
      - Damocles11
        
        Disingenuous, just generic articles, one of them just prattling about ships. If you think that constitutes an eviscerating criticism of government then your cognitive bias is showing.
        
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        May 17, 2024 2:14pm
  - Bevan
    
    Gee Wayne…
    
    Did she write a letter to Ron Mark?
    Did she write a letter to Peeni Henare?
    Did she write a letter to Andrew Little?
    
    Shit was dire during at least the last two def mins, but now that increased funding has been announced by Judith Collins she has found her voice? BULLSHIT.
    
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    May 17, 2024 11:30am
  - 70andstilllearning
    
    Why should this issue be turned into an attack on the media?
    She may have used her journalistic skills to write her letter however you seem to conveniently omit the point that she used her media connections to make it an open media letter/news item.
    Why did she not just write to the M of D privately just like any other Jane/Joe Blog is perhaps the question you should have asked!
    
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    May 17, 2024 12:24pm
    - Ghost
      
      Many people write their letters to ministers and publish them, typically they end up in the letter to editor section. I just read one where the person was demanding Winston attend Ukraine peace talks
      
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      May 17, 2024 12:45pm
      - 70andstilllearning
        
        ‘.. typically they end up in the letter to editor section …” – which reinforces my point that Jane/Joe Blog wouldn’t get a topline link on the News front page as did a journo’s opinion piece.
        https://newsroom.co.nz
        
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        May 17, 2024 1:46pm
      - Ghost
        
        It doesn’t matter that she is a journalist. Every point she raises is legitimate. Hell, people on this blog admit often the military is underfunded we need to build it up. But because this journalists has said this rather than admit she is right, people have gone after her. Drop the tribal glasses that people wear when someone isn’t kissing up to the government. Our military is in a shambles, the personal are under paid. It’s sad that she has had to write such an article. But we will continue to underfund the military, we will continue to ignore the issues.
        
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        May 17, 2024 1:51pm
    - julesnzuk
      
      Because the state of the Army is a matter of public interest. Or should be.
      
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      May 17, 2024 8:30pm
  - rouppe
    
    What does it take to make corporal these days?
    
    That’s pretty much the first step up from Private. A couple of years, keep your nose clean and have a sliver of intelligence, enough to lead a section?
    
    Corporal also means they didn’t join one of the officer programs, of which there are plenty.
    
    But why is this person corporal after 10 years? 10 years they ought to be commissioned. If they wanted to. There are certainly plenty of vacancies up the tree a bit.
    
    So, lowest possibility they joined as an infantry rifleman, with not much more than ncea l1, have been promoted through merit, but there is something preventing an officer track.
    
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    May 17, 2024 1:12pm
    - AitchW
      
      Not everyone wants a commission. Warrant Officers, the top two NCOs are, in my limited experience in the TA 40 years ago, respected by everyone with a brain.
      Also in my limited experience many NCOs are happy to get to corporal and stay there for their whole time in the army.
      
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      May 17, 2024 1:45pm
    - julesnzuk
      
      Yet another commenter who has no clue about the military. Corporal is two ranks up from private and 10 years is about right. To commission from the ranks typically takes about 20 years. Direct entry officer training is completely different – and your notion that “there is something preventing an officer track” misses the point entirely.
      
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      May 17, 2024 8:32pm
  - surfing
    
    Because the media = labour.
    
    This is a disguised attack against national, posing as a legitimate issue.
    
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    May 17, 2024 1:52pm
- Ghost
  
  None of that changes the fact those in our military who in a war will be fighting to protect this country are underpaid. Why attack her instead of dealing with the issue and that is the pay our doctors, nurses, police, military, etc are receiving?
  
  More than ever with the conflicts going on around the world we need to be building up our military.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:54am
  - cmm
    
    “None of that changes the fact those in our military who in a war will be fighting to protect this country are underpaid. ”
    
    Oh grief, the NZDF are in no position to protect NZ in a war.
    
    If a war does actually happen that threatens NZ directly then it will need every able-bodied person to step up. It won’t be just a few soldiers “keeping us safe” while the rest of us get on with our lives.
    
    Certainly some people with special skills and training (eg. artillery) would play more of a role, but they are not going to be able to defend NZ on their own.
    
    But yes, wages are low in NZ – all wages – not just government workers. And, just as with everyone else, one option is to take your skills elsewhere where they are appreciated and rewarded.
    
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    May 17, 2024 10:38am
    - herb1
      
      The whole basis of our army is to have an overall structure that when needed can be fleshed out with thousands upon thousands of conscripts or volunteers. Our army as it stands dose t have the capability or capacity to take on a small country or military. When the first Fijian coup happened we had soldiers on standby to go to Fiji. It was quickly understood the Fijian Army was more than twice the size of ours.
      
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      May 17, 2024 12:53pm
      - cmm
        
        If that is the basis of our defence strategy then the execution is terrible.
        
        It takes at least 3 months to train up vaguely competent cannon fodder. If you want people with even the most basic infantry skills (eg. fire and movement) then you’re talking 6 months minimum. Without that 6 months of training, soldiers are pretty damn useless and ineffective and survivability is low. 6 months of training can make a really good defensive force.
        
        It would take an invading military 2 days to overrun NZ. There is no 6 months to do the training.
        
        IMHO, the best model for NZ would be purely defensive, using a well trained population (aka the Swiss model). For this to work you need two things we are lacking:
        * Compulsory military training: 6 months for 18 year olds, followed by 1 week a year until the age of 30 (or whatever). Expand that slightly with a 12 to 18 month option for junior leaders (ie. corporals and lieutenants) to be squad/platoon leaders as well as trainers.
        * Dispersed armouries so that the trained population can be armed within an hour or two. I don’t think we’re really at the point of having everyone have private safes like the Swiss.
        
        Such a policy is extremely cheap to enact and is very effective as a defensive policy.
        
        If you focus on defence, and not expeditionary forces, then costs can be massively reduced.
        
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        May 17, 2024 2:03pm
      - julesnzuk
        
        CMM – it would still cost money (the Swiss defence budget is huge). People need to accept that and get over this idea of doing things on the cheap. It’s false economy. The NZDF has been run into the ground for years – it’s embarrassing.
        
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        May 17, 2024 8:41pm
  - julesnzuk
    
    Because there’s a lot of free market fundamentalists on here who don’t accept that a civilised country will always have overheads such as defence, health, police, prisons, education etc. Basically they baulk at any government spending, even on public services that a civilised, first world country should have. And they don’t appreciate the military or its culture and ethos.
    
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    May 17, 2024 8:38pm
- Cassandra
  
  I lived in Army housing for many years, in Burnham and Waiouru. No carpets supplied. But no black mould either – my wife kept the house aired and clean. But she is right: pay needs to go up massively. The Defence budget needs to go up massively – we need a new navy and the sailors to crew it, plus an Air Force and an army.
  
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  May 17, 2024 10:35am
  - cmm
    
    We first need to jump start the economy to pay for this.
    
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    May 17, 2024 10:39am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      I agree in principle, but ….
      
      Over the last three years we have paid (about) $400 million to developing countries for “climate finance”. These payments will continue and ramp up to 2030.
      
      Now I’ll take a guess that not many service personnel know about these payments. In fact hardly anyone knows 🙂 Now if we were to stop those payments, not much would happen. The EU would complain but oh well.
      
      Now let’s say we applied that $400 million each year to pay rises for NZDF personnel. There are 15,000 NZDF personnel. That comes to $26,000 each 🙂
      
      So no I don’t accept that we cannot pay the soldiers and sailors more.
      
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      May 17, 2024 11:42am
      - rouppe
        
        Exactly right. The same as councils saying they can’t afford to fix the pipes while paying for pride parades
        
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        May 17, 2024 1:14pm
      - cmm
        
        Certainly our priorities are screwed up.
        
        Yes, certainly, we could quite easily pay critical staff (soldiers, nurses, police,…) a lot more by cutting these expenses. No-brainer.
        
        However, I was thinking more of the other part – expenditure on military assets. Fighter aircraft or combat oriented ships are incredibly expensive. Keeping them trained is even more expensive.
        
        Focusing on people as well as a defensive strategy (as I outline elsewhere) is way cheaper and something I think we could afford quite easily.
        
        Equipping people as defensive infantry is cheap – less than $1k each. Add another $10k or so for training (other than pay).
        
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        May 17, 2024 2:24pm
    - julesnzuk
      
      CMM – binning all the net zero crap should help save a few billion, that should help.
      
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      May 17, 2024 8:47pm
- OlderChas
  
  I find it interesting that these problems apparently have only arisen since Judith Collins became Minister of Defence. Did the journalist ever write a similar (IMO very overstated) letter to the Ministers of Defence before Ms Collins?
  Yep, life in the military can be tough on families. After serving more than 30 years in our military I can attest to that. Wives and kids would wave us goodbye then get on with managing family life for up to 14 months as our ships did what they did. Some of us came home to meet toddlers we had never met before. Communication by letter only apart from a very rare Radio-telephone session or maybe a toll call from somewhere if we could afford it.
  $80,000 a year as a Corporal? In my time – if only!
  
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  May 17, 2024 10:57am
- Bevan
  
  Would be interesting to read her letters to the previous Def Mins considering Peeni Hanare was the worst f%^&en minister ever.
  
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  May 17, 2024 10:58am
  - Albie
    
    Can anyone here counter an argument as to why we need 3 branches of the armed services for an island country of only 5.4m people?
    Surely a combined force based on the Marine Corp model would be more useful and cost effective, or does tradition and ego trump common sense?
    From an ex Airforce serviceman BTW.
    
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    May 17, 2024 12:30pm
    - Its only I
      
      What about a space force?
      NZ could be the country that has a Zefram Cochrane type just waiting for the opportunity to invent the warp drive…
      
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      May 17, 2024 1:07pm
      - david
        
        I have a small supply of flux capacitors available – genuine buyers only need apply.
        
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        May 17, 2024 2:57pm
      - Albie
        
        Don’t be a dick. Attempting here to have a rational discussion.
        
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        May 17, 2024 4:54pm
    - cmm
      
      Yes, certainly. A non-expeditionary combined defensive service makes a lot of sense.
      
      Inter-service politics and dick measuring just adds inefficiency.
      
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      May 17, 2024 2:26pm
      - rockape
        
        Combined ops are what it’s all about. The RAF had the RAF Regt to defend it on deployment. The Navy has the fleet Air Arm and Royal Marines and the Army has the Army Air Corps.
        
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        May 17, 2024 5:03pm
    - rouppe
      
      The Marine are the maritime land force service branch of the United States Armed Forces responsible for conducting expeditionary and amphibious operations through combined arms, implementing its own infantry, artillery, aerial, and special operations forces
      
      Basically, as part of the Navy, they have their own infantry, artillery and air force.
      
      Is that materially any different to what we have now? There could probably be some efficiencies to be had, but one united states aircraft carrier has more tonnage than our entire navy, more personnel than our entire army, and more planes than our entire air force, so just calling it one name i doubt changes much.
      
      If you’re saying throw out the entire model and start again, what would you dispense with?
      
      Bearing in mind
      1. we need to patrol a huge maritime economic zone, and if we can’t board pillagers (navy) we’d have to be comfortable sinking them then and there.
      2. We need to be able to transport what capability we do have to where is needed
      3. We need to be able to kill the enemy, or materially support our allies in doing it for/with us
      
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      May 17, 2024 4:47pm
      - Albie
        
        OK, what do we dispense with? Where do we start: LAV3’s, separate army, navy and airforce bases, 3 groups of senior officers managing 3 individual services, 3 different uniforms, I could go on.
        A single defence force under one command centre at the very least could free up funding to pay service personnel better and rationalise equipment purchases further saving money, but what would I know.
        
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        May 17, 2024 5:02pm
    - julesnzuk
      
      Albie – it’s Armed Forces (not “services”) but yes, your idea isn’t necessarily silly. I’ve noticed people tend to refer to the NZDF these days (rather than “army”, “navy” or “RNZAF”) so perhaps that’s where it’s headed.
      
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      May 17, 2024 8:50pm
- Ra Henare
  
  Interesting. Looking up NZ Army payscales, I came across this
  https://force4families.mil.nz/
  
  Of course not mentioned in the moaning artcile
  
  Yep. I did 12 years in the Military Late 60s/70s. If you think they are hard done by now, compare back until then.
  But of course that was before wokeness and “”poor me”” invaded the country
  
  PS. Great spirit and comraderie was the norm in the military back then.
  
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  May 17, 2024 6:26pm
  - Ra Henare
    
    Oh by the way. Defence Force personel get Free Medical, dental, clothing(uniforms) Free training.
    Am sure her corporal was given extensive management training including free accommodation and meals as well as specific trade/operational training.
    
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    May 17, 2024 7:04pm
    - julesnzuk
      
      Ra, you served in a different era. I rather suspect salaries haven’t kept pace with inflation (and that’s just one negative aspect of a career in the NZDF),
      
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      May 17, 2024 8:19pm
- julesnzuk
  
  What the hell is an NZDF “personnel member”? Can these plonkers who work at Newshub even speak English? Leaving aside the fact that the introduction to the piece didn’t make sense why not just refer to the guy as a soldier, sailor or airman?
  
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  May 17, 2024 8:17pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  I’m sorry (um, not really), bit the f’ing political cowards that send young men to be blown to bits need to show some respect, in spades. They sit on their arses in safety. Young men (in the main) get sent to be traumatized for life and often seriously disabled. F you cowardly wnker pollies. Show some integrity and respect towards these brave people!.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:48pm
Simon

The gangs run rent boys who they pimp to homosexual clients to be used and abused. The gangs make good coin. When the rent boys get older and fatter they move them onto selling drugs. They let the rent boys join the gang for the sense of “belonging”. But in reality, they are chattel that cannot be taken by other gangs. They are often raped by senior gang members. Some rent boys lose their minds due to the sexual and drug abuse. Suicide is one way out.
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May 17, 2024 8:14am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Sounds like the Labour Party club rooms. Maybe it’s Fraser house.
  
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  May 17, 2024 8:50am
artemisia

12 boxes of scorched almonds nicked. Good score. Until the thief was nicked minutes later. And charged with 20 shoplifting offences. Scorched almonds and an alleged shoplifting history. Taking the proverbial.

Police are now reporting on shoplifters caught, and that hopefully reflects more resources assigned to identify and stop recidivists in their tracks.

Individual offences might not be in the designer handbag price range but a much bigger overall impact on furious retailers and all consumers wearing price rises.
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May 17, 2024 8:16am
- Flossie
  
  So much for the cry that “it’s poverty causing it – need to feed the family” etc. Scorched almonds are delicious, but not nutritious.
  
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  May 17, 2024 8:25am
Maggy Wassilieff

Maori Population is just over 900,000.

https://waateanews.com/2024/05/16/maori-population-tops-900000/

But this latest estimate is still based on the inaccurate 2018 census.
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May 17, 2024 8:19am
- cmm
  
  As I understand it, the 2018 census is still more accurate than the 2023 online census which had a very low participation rate, especially amongst Maori.
  
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  May 17, 2024 8:22am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Unless I’m misuderstanding the stats presented here:
    
    Maori participation rate in the 2023 census is 77%
    https://www.stats.govt.nz/reports/interim-coverage-rates-collection-response-rates-and-data-sources-for-the-2023-census/
    
    Maori participation rate in the 2018 census was 68%
    https://www.stats.govt.nz/methods/2018-census-collection-response-rates-unacceptably-low
    
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    May 17, 2024 8:39am
    - Simon
      
      No way its 900K. That would screw up all other stats like life expectancy nz. For Eg
      
      Life Exp NZ is 82.21 vs Aust 83.3. Maori life is 75. Having 900K population out of 5 million dying 7 yrs early than everyone else would be much lower than NZ 82.21 vs Aust 83.3
      
      900k is garbage. If a lot of the 900K are supposed to be kids can look up stats on kids which would place NZ worst kid stats in OECD. Not the case.
      
      Eg It is well known that Māori students as a group spend less time in the education system, and do less well in it, than non-Māori students as a group
      
      https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/publications/91416/maori-medium-and-english-medium/5847
      
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      May 17, 2024 8:45am
      - cmm
        
        What do you think is a reasonable number?
        
        It is always a possibility that the actual form-filling census numbers are accurate for Maori and that the subsequent “data correction” phase is done by activists who tilt the field.
        
        It is also possible that more people are now identifying as Maori because there is benefit in doing so, so the demographics of “Maori” shifts with time.
        
        If the demographics shift then underlying numbers (eg. health stats) would shift too.
        
        For example an associate of mine who is 1/8th Maori and far all intents and purposes is whiter-than-white only started claiming to be Maori when his daughters could benefit from it (access to university and mental health services).
        
        When he and his family now show up on the Maori side of the ledger, taking their longevity with them.
        
        Stats are only worth comparing when other factors have not changed. When demographics shift, then the stats can be very misleading.
        
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        May 17, 2024 9:50am
    - cmm
      
      I think it depends on what you are looking at:
      * The actual count itself (filling out forms)
      * The output of the entire process – including filling in with supplemental data.
      
      Actual Maori counting was very low, but after the data fill-in they think they got to 96% accuracy on the Maori numbers in 2018.
      
      “In total it is estimated that 98.6 percent of the population was counted in the 2018 Census compared with 97.6 percent in 2013. Also counted were 96.0 percent of Māori, 96.1 percent of Pacific people, 97.3 percent of Asian people, and 96.3 percent of 15–29-year-olds. ”
      
      Yet another stat where Maori perform poorly because of colonialism or something.
      
      https://www.stats.govt.nz/methods/2018-census-collection-response-rates-unacceptably-low
      
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      May 17, 2024 9:11am
    - I remember when
      
      So it was 68% and 77% of what?
      Self identification?
      
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      May 17, 2024 9:38am
      - Jack5
        
        A good point by Irw ..
        
        Continued blending of ethnic European and Maori has created a large and increasing “mestizo”-type section of the population.
        
        Unlike Canada, where the Metis are a separate First Nation and ethnic identity, NZ’s European-Maori mixed race community is offered only the official choice of White or Maori.
        
        Perhaps there should be a choice for statistics and other official purposes: Maori, Mixed (or “blended” or another euphemism), White, Asian, non-Maori Polynesian, Other, Private.
        
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        May 17, 2024 11:11am
  - Random T Person
    
    I sent my census forms back unfilled. Lost trust in government.
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:28am
    - wsk12345
      
      I ticked a fee “prefer not to say” and left the rest blank.
      
      We have no Maori blood but my bro has been on the roll as Maori for 30 years. He figured back then that there might be advantages in future, not that he has had any to date. But why would t you.
      
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      May 17, 2024 1:39pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  So does that mean 1 in 6 of us identifies as a Maori?
  
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  May 17, 2024 8:30am
  - cmm
    
    5.4M population, so yup, your Catholic School long division is still working.
    Given the advantages, I’d identify as Maori too. I am sure early Maori seafarers discovered South Africa somewhere in the 1100s.
    
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    May 17, 2024 8:36am
  - Stellaboxer
    
    The best thing this country could do for society is stop collecting race based statistics. As Morgan Freeman put it when asked about how racism should be addressed “ stop talking about it “ was his reply . It’s not such a radical idea it’s been illegal to do so in France since 1946 beforehand they were avid collectors and created a vast treasure trove of information for the Nazis to find when they entered Paris . The argument that we need the stats to best target services is politicians BS and is really that we need the stats to expand the government and public sector divide the population into self interest groups with someone other than them and their pitifully run economic system to blame for the state we’re all in as opposed to how we could be.
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:43am
    - julesnzuk
      
      It doesn’t need to completely stop but Europeans need to harden up and get a bit more muscular when it comes to expressing pride in our heritage. I’m proud to be a NZ European and happy to be labelled one. Just don’t call me a “pakeha” or “non Maori” – that horse shit needs to go immediately. (Not a huge fan of the reductive Americanism “white” either)
      
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      May 17, 2024 9:00pm
  - Paulus
    
    Maggie – Yes !
    
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    May 17, 2024 2:09pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Why 2018? Did we not do a census last year?
  
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  May 17, 2024 8:42am
  - cmm
    
    There are basically two parts to a census:
    * Actual form filling data gathering.
    * Supplementing missing information from other sources (school enrollments, births, deaths, immigration, WINZ…)
    
    The second part is required because many people are far too slack at filling out the forms. This process gets the count up from, say 68% to 96% (as it was for Maori in 2018).
    
    The second part of it takes a very long time.
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:15am
    - wsk12345
      
      I hope dines are being sent to all the people they have ide tidied that didn’t fill in a form.
      
      Oh sorry – that’s racist. Won’t happen.
      
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      May 17, 2024 1:40pm
- john1234
  
  I see. And these “Maori” who are say, 16% Maori and 74% European count as Maori of course. Of these “Maori”, how many of them are at least 50% Maori? My apologies for using deficient white, western scientific concepts such as genetics. I’m sure matauranga Maori has a much better way.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:49am
  - imalwaysright
    
    I think that maori dna has some of its origins in asia.
    Would that mean that all kiwis with asian dna could register as maori, and logically , have a stronger claim on being a maori since they are of the motherland?
    
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    May 17, 2024 10:56am
  - Paulus
    
    Winston said a couple of years ago that you could be a Maori in the ratio 1/512th
    
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    May 17, 2024 2:11pm
- pdm
  
  Maggy I think that is roughly right based on Maori making up 15/17% of the New Zealand population.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:52am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    That’s the problem… We keep being told that Maori are approx 15% of population… (for decades now) and in the meantime our population has soared and become more diverse and the birthrate of Maori is no longer that of the 1960s….
    
    https://teara.govt.nz/en/graph/30192/fertility-rates-maori-and-non-maori-1844-2015#:~:text=Information%20about%20M%C4%81ori%20fertility%20is,per%20M%C4%81ori%20woman%20in%201990.
    
    So, do we really know if Maori are the 2nd -most populous group of people in the country…. or has the Asian population surpassed it?
    
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    May 17, 2024 10:09am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      I can’t answer your last question but I am sure that the answer is available.
      
      On your posted link. Yes Maori fertility rates are way less than the 1960s. However the Maori fertility rate relative to that of non Maori is still significantly higher. Fast-forward to 2050, New Zealanders of European descent will be a minority.
      
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      May 17, 2024 10:28am
      - Paulus
        
        Yes, but the overall population percentage ratio will be from India, China and say the Philippines not so called Europeans.
        
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        May 17, 2024 2:13pm
      - Pineapple Lumps
        
        Yes, white NZers are victims of colonisation too. Just the colonisers are different races now.
        
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        May 17, 2024 7:51pm
- lastmanstanding
  
  Given no evidence has to be provided to prove one is a Maori I am very sceptical of the numbers. And what constitutes a Maori? How much ancestry? I say unless at least 50% of ones ancestry is of a certain ethnicity one cant claim to be wholly of that ancestry one can at best claim to be part of that ancestry. And as others have posted given the numbers of immigrants over the past couple of decades I doubt those with any significant Maori ancestry constitute even 10% probably less.
  
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  May 17, 2024 10:52am
- sirknz
  
  Worst attempt at a government led genocide ever…
  
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  May 17, 2024 10:59am
- Paulus
  
  Whaddaya mean, are these figures made up as no accurate figures can be found, as Maori did not participate in the Censuses to any serious degree ?
  And they want to cease the Census and let the figures be arranged again.
  
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  May 17, 2024 2:06pm
  - Nobby2
    
    My understanding is that it is a legal requirement to fill out a census form. So why aren’t the Government looking for and prosecuting and fining those who did not participate in the census or deliberately buggered up the census form. I remember the wizard of ChCh being taken to court for refusing to complete a census.
    
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    May 17, 2024 3:52pm
Maggie Pie

Vodaphone closing it’s flagship store in Queen Street due to ongoing thefts
and threats to staff. Remember how much better Auckland was prior to 2017?
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May 17, 2024 8:22am
- cmm
  
  You can understand why people prefer to shop online and provide services online.
  
  Who in their right mind would want to go to a “flagship” store in Queen Street just to buy a phone?
  Congestion, then parking, then walking a piss-smelling obstacle course of vagrants etc. Find the store somewhere between a bunch of boarded up shop fronts and sleazy XXX shops, then deal with rude staff who are stressed out from dealing with rude customers and methed-up shoplifters.
  
  I would rather visit a shop in a mall far away from the city centre or just shop online.
  
  CBDs are an idea from the 1600s when there was no communication or transport to speak of. It made sense for the business people to congregate within walking distance of eachother’s offices and the club for lunch. Those reasons are long gone.
  
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  May 17, 2024 8:33am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    And they have to keep paying the rent until a new tenant is found!
    
    Jason will be hoping no one else reads YOUR post 🙁
    
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    May 17, 2024 8:39am
    - cmm
      
      The writing has been on the wall (quite literally) for a good 25 years.
      Anyone who signed up for a 10 year lease only has themselves to blame.
      Dunno who Jason is, but maybe he should ask his mates if any of them go shopping in QS.
      
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      May 17, 2024 9:19am
      - Jethrod
        
        Jason Paris, also used to be a wheel at TVNZ
        Probably Newmarket
        
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        May 17, 2024 10:10am
      - cmm
        
        Jason Paris? I’m still none the wiser.
        
        Probably on the idiot box, which I last watched in 1997.
        
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        May 17, 2024 4:40pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Not sure about the answer to this, but can you buy a phone on line and have it delivered like our work phones are when we update
    
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    May 17, 2024 8:45am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      Of course.
      
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      May 17, 2024 8:59am
    - sirknz
      
      2 Degrees will even send it to you with no courier fee tacked on if you purchase a phone online.
      
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      May 17, 2024 9:11am
    - graham
      
      Or you can go to one of the many malls and visit the shop there, as cmm indicated.
      
      My wife visits the Vodafone – sorry, One NZ – store in our local mall when she has problems. Gets great service from helpful staff.
      
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      May 17, 2024 9:22am
      - Flossie
        
        Kudos to One New Zealand for not succumbing to naming themselves One Aotearoa.
        
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        May 17, 2024 11:26am
      - cas
        
        I bought my samsung cheapie at the local Spark store. They were very helpful then and have been subsequently. I go in whenever I have a problem with internet, phone etc rather than ring Spark and get someone in the Philippines wanting to reach out to me and say have a good day and then can’t answer any questions.
        
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        May 17, 2024 11:52am
    - Local Miller
      
      Yes, every phone my wife has bought over the past 6 years has been bought on line. My wife doesn’t like expensive iPhones or Samsungs and goes for simple and cheap because that’s all she needs. Gets a new one every 2 years, buys on line and they arrive in 2 – 5 days.
      
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      May 17, 2024 9:29am
    - cmm
      
      Why go to QS when you can buy a phone (or flog it) from the supermarket?
      
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      May 17, 2024 9:52am
      - imalwaysright
        
        I think prepay sims need ID to get the vendor to enable it. Might be wrong.
        
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        May 17, 2024 10:24am
      - Ghost
        
        No, you just buy it at a supermarket and put it in.
        
        7 0
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        May 17, 2024 10:35am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Thanks
        
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        May 17, 2024 11:06am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        “I think prepay sims need ID to get the vendor to enable it. Might be wrong.”
        
        Not in New Zealand.
        
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        May 17, 2024 11:44am
- Muttonbird
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  John Keys closed the Fort St police station in 2013. Probably a lot to do with it.
  
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  May 17, 2024 8:44am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    It wasn’t a police station was it? I thought it was one of those kiosk thingys
    
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    May 17, 2024 8:47am
  - Libertarians are right
    
    Who’s John Keys?
    Pretty sure it’s got more to do with stuff that’s happened more recently than 11 years ago.
    
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    May 17, 2024 8:57am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Who is John Keys?
    
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    May 17, 2024 8:59am
    - SometimesRight
      
      John’s Keys
      
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      May 17, 2024 9:35am
  - JimBobJoe
    
    Lol. The main police building in Auckland is in Mayoral Drive. Plod patrolling from their on foot can leave the garage door and be in Q Street about 2/3s up in about 4 minutes for fit young constables.
    
    Patrolling up and down Q Street from there easily could have 5 on patrol separated by a few minutes walking in the retail area of Q Street Between Mayoral Drive and Quay St – i.e. a copper always visible and within easy support distance of each other
    
    Its about organisation – Fort St station has little to do with controlling Q Street if you want to control it…
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:00am
    - AitchW
      
      I thought that Fort St was the Water Police base. Or was that 40 years ago?
      
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      May 17, 2024 1:52pm
      - JimBobJoe
        
        Water Police are on the Wharf. There was a patrol base on Fort Street – mostly for night work if I remember correct. Fort St is low rent pubs and massage places…. but you also get High St and Vulcan Lane drinks going thru for the kebabs. Late night down there is a be hairy if you dont have your wits about you..
        
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        May 17, 2024 9:51pm
  - Blog-aholic
    
    Who is John Keys?
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:05am
    - Biscuit
      
      Just another sig of declining comprehenion skills, Blog-aholic (and the previous posters in similar vein).
      
      I’m forever hearing about some chap called Christopher Luxton and have seen several variations of the way Jacinda Ardern prefers to spell her name.
      
      And that’s just in our ‘world-class’ mee-jya!
      
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      May 17, 2024 9:51am
      - pdm
        
        Speaking of declining skills.
        
        sig?
        
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        May 17, 2024 9:58am
  - Swifty
    
    Surely it’s the fault of the retailers isn’t it Mutton? If they would only stop selling those lovely phones people want to steal all these problems would go away?
    
    Well, that was your argument quite recently with the dairies selling fags.
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:21am
  - Local Miller
    
    Down ticked just for the “Keys” mistake. Who’s this Keys fellow and what right did he have to close a police station?
    
    8 3
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    May 17, 2024 9:30am
    - JimBobJoe
      
      Its not a mistake. Its classic Marxist tactics to denigrate a person on the other side…. its not call capitalist running dog bile, its often more subtle but still designed to de-humanise and belittle the other.
      
      Muttie has a long history of this type of communication….
      
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      May 17, 2024 11:39am
  - john1234
    
    John “Key”. If you can’t even get the guy’s name right I wonder about your grasp of more difficult details.
    Back in the real world, the closure was the call of the police commissioner. Key wasn’t even the responsible minister (Anne Tolley).
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:54am
    - plc
      
      He doing it on purpose. Yesterday it was Chris Luxton.
      
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      May 17, 2024 10:17am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        Here was me thing only dumb lefties do that.
        
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        May 17, 2024 1:11pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Have the removed the vile stench of people off the streets lying in shop doors? Is that hugely obese guy still jammed in the maccas door?
  
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  May 17, 2024 8:44am
  - MCōs
    
    Not since you went back to Dunedin, giant
    
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    May 17, 2024 8:55am
    - Random T Person
      
      Had to laugh at that one cossie
      
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      May 17, 2024 9:30am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        Good for you
        
        1 0
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        May 17, 2024 1:16pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      I have been to Auckland many times. Why the nasty vile post? I haven’t been to Auckland since covid, but I remember being there a few years back, dead beats everywhere, I don’t go to Maccas, but there was a huge Māori guy sitting right in the doorway and you couldn’t get passed.
      
      Thanks for the smear
      
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      May 17, 2024 1:15pm
      - julesnzuk
        
        Jesus even I can see it was intended as banter – and I laughed too. Perhaps chill out.
        
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        May 17, 2024 9:08pm
- I remember when
  
  You wonder why they didn’t just call the Police.
  Lack of resources?
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:40am
- Sir Cullen's Sidekick
  
  Ms Pie – There is no Vodafone in NZ. It is called One.NZ like Aotearoa instead of NZ.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:49am
softail 1450

MP, Labour / Greens are hoping we will forget their reckless disastrous 6 years that has left our country in ruins , not gonna happen..
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May 17, 2024 8:32am
- Sir Cullen's Sidekick
  
  Softail 1450 – They will be back with a bang with TPM in tow in 2026. Luxon is a one term wonder. He will never be liked by Kiwis. Even as a National party supporter and voter, I don’t like Luxon the way I used to like the traitor John Key.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:50am
  - julesnzuk
    
    What about New Zealanders? Will they like him?
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:09pm
Ipanema69

Is it s requirement to have a BMI of more than 35 to get a moko?

Asking for a friend.
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May 17, 2024 8:34am
- sirknz
  
  No, just a tenuous link to the South West of Polynesia. Less than 1% by quantum should do it.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:16am
- softail 1450
  
  Ipanema69, I can tell you that to get the increasingly popular chin tattoo as a female you MUST be fluent in Ti Reo ,this of course is being rapidly forgotten by many Māori women , it’s only a matter of time until the main headline on women’s weekly front cover will be “ the 1st pakeha woman to get Moko Kauae explains why” ,bet your bank balances on it..
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:19am
  - Flossie
    
    I’m sure I’ve seen several moko kauae on white chins already.
    Back in the day – like when I was a kid – they were only seen on respected kuia and were not a young woman’s fashion statement or badge of rebellion.
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:43am
    - JimBobJoe
      
      Indeed Flossie. It was not a right granted to all to have Ta Moke and Moke kauae.
      
      I personally would respect people who get the tats done now if they had it done in traditional fashion: with a chisel and grooved in to the face using traditional pigments and no modern anti biotics for infection.
      
      Would be fewer keen to have their faces tatted, if it was done according to old school tikanga…
      
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      May 17, 2024 11:42am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      You would get in trouble referring to “white chins” these days 🙁
      
      I used to work with a woman who had a chin tattoo. She had fair skin, blonde hair and blue eyes. I swear that she looked Icelandic. But she identified as Maori.
      
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      May 17, 2024 11:47am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    You’re some years behind the times….
    
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/358026/pakeha-woman-with-facial-moko-draws-backlash
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:51am
  - Paulus
    
    Wait until shortly a college girl turn up to school with a moko.
    Won’t be long !
    
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    May 17, 2024 2:17pm
  - julesnzuk
    
    Last time I checked any one can get any tattoo they want – I don’t believe there’s any law against it. (Although facial tattoos previously constrained your employment prospects – and I should hope they still do, regardless of whether it’s a “moko kauae” or not).
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:12pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Can a transistor get one?
  
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  May 17, 2024 11:25am
Scooter

So self mutilation is now not considered as a symptom of a psychiatric disorder, just someone wanting to jump the queue and get unnecessary surgery ahead of those who have real medical issues.

“Assessment by the acute mental health team after the teen’s emergency department admission found he didn’t have a psychiatric disorder and wasn’t suicidal, they wrote. ”

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/national/transgender-teen-tries-to-cut-off-own-breast-in-self-mastectomy-wellington-doctors/
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May 17, 2024 8:44am
- Mike
  
  That story might actually reflect the pressure on mental health services. Sadly, it might require multiple acts of self-harm before psychiatric help is considered urgent.
  
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  May 17, 2024 8:51am
  - Scooter
    
    Like you say Mike, they need psychiatric help not surgery.
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:21am
  - Local Miller
    
    Thanks to Liebour! First Clark’s government then Ardern’s.
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:36am
- Inandout
  
  Scooter, I heard Eva on ZB this morning refer to her as a ‘he’ that cut off her breasts. I tend to side with the Peru opinion of trans people.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:26am
- Scooter
  
  Also Newstalk should be reported to the broadcasting standards for promoting self harm.
  
  Surgery went well and the teen was discharged a day later, with his scars well healed and his self-esteem and confidence up at a post-operation appointment a month later, Wellington Regional Hospital doctors Mairarangi Haimona, Sue Hui Ong and Scott Diamond wrote.
  
  “He reported improvement in self-esteem and self-confidence and his ability to complete school work, and was looking forward to enrolling at university.”
  
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  May 17, 2024 4:46pm
  - Ghost
    
    They aren’t promoting self harm.
    
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    May 17, 2024 4:53pm
Damocles11

Fonterra flogging off the family silver including much-loved brands that were built up and cherished for generations. Tip Top was sold off earlier along with any parts of the business focussed on making anything other than bare basic products. Under Miles Hurrell the company is regressing, to the point where the company is narrowly focussed on producing whole milk powder – a bulk commodity with no sophistication to it and which many other countries are now producing. As NZ moves closer to AUKUS, it will see how China can easily collapse the price of our key dairy commodities. China engineered (through massive Chinese investment in Indonesia) the collapse of the price of Nickel to teach Australia a lesson in who is in charge. They have done the same with Lithium with the same objective. The NZ dairy industry can easily be crippled, and I predict this will happen within the next 5 years, and yet through our stupidity we are moving our head even further into the jaws of the lion. China’s proxy North Korea is already sounding off about New Zealand, making ominous threats, but predictably nobody has noticed this chilling new development – accept to stupidly laugh about it.
NZ is such a depressing country because of the lack of innovation and the pig-headed fixation on producing basic commodities / raw materials with no value add component, and increasingly we are doubling-down on ‘all eggs in one basket’ at a time when we *must* move away from that. We are making catastrophic mistakes in plain sight but continue to sleep walk towards disaster. If we are going to continue down the AUKUS route – and I’m not saying we shouldn’t – then we desperately need to diversify away from China and make smart decisions within our key corporate entities. Unfortunately there is no real leadership here and no strategy and no vision. The political leadership is a mixture of bland and incompetent. The PM blithely saying that “New Zealand’s best days are ahead of it” is not grounded in reality and courts disaster; it reminds me of Key’s “we are on the cusp of something special”.
(How did Fonterra initially get into balance sheet trouble, triggering their ‘back to basics’ folly? Because of a naive and fatal foray into a China which they still to this day do not understand.)
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May 17, 2024 8:49am
- Mike
  
  Perhaps John Key will reappear on TV to reassure us that his close friend Xi has all of our best interests at heart.
  
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  May 17, 2024 8:54am
  - JimBobJoe
    
    Alongside Helen Clark maybe? Helen, who is constantly spouting off about not needing to go in to Pillar 2 Aukus because it might upset the CCP.
    
    Never forget Helen signed NZ up to be a CCP trading partner and destroyed out airforce due to a ‘benign threat environment’… though of course Michael you know all this, but choose the standard blame the opposition for what you yourself do or support.
    
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    May 17, 2024 11:45am
    - Ra Henare
      
      JBJ, I actually agreed with Helen Clarks Government decision NOT to Buy F16s for the RNZAF.
      I was on active service with RNZAF at the time with lots of direct experience with strike wing.
      
      There was no relevant threat then or now that would necessitate F16s.
      Even less now with the advent of smart missiles to counter any threat coming from offshore. Remember that F16s have a fairly miserably operational range.
      
      I visited the F16 factory in Dallas and was advised F16 could make it from Dallas to Los Angles as long as they didnt have to use afterburners. (Slight further Ohakea to Williamstown (NSW).
      So could fly across the ditch but only just.)
      
      So operational ability. Limited.
      
      Back then many of my aircrew mates(Maritime/Transport) referred to the F16 idea as “”toys for the boys””
      
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      May 17, 2024 6:47pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        Ever heard of aerial refueling?
        The F16 could have provided protection for the Australian Tanker and AWACs freeing up Australian assets for other things
        They were a bargain.
        
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        May 17, 2024 8:09pm
      - julesnzuk
        
        So the money that was supposed to go on the F16s – where did that go? I’m guessing not back into the RNZAF.
        
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        May 17, 2024 9:19pm
      - JimBobJoe
        
        I always see our airforce as three roles:
        
        Martime – patrol, S&R and anti submarine
        Transport
        Fighters – that are capable of operating with the Us and Aussie.
        
        What you say may be true re the capability but the situation was not benign at the time Clark pulled the pin. The PRC was always going to be a threat and Indonesia is not particularly trustworthy
        
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        May 17, 2024 9:54pm
- JimBobJoe
  
  We have needed to diversify away from China for a good 10 plus years – the CCP has always show itself happy to pull trade based aggression. Been the odd time NZ goods have been held in Chinese Ports because of…. import paper irregularities like expired import licences etc
  
  the CCP are not and never will be a rules based entity and it is not, and will never be, a trust worthy trade partner. They will always operate as a Master in a Master/Servant relationship. Willingly being their slave is not a smart place to be…
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:05am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Just because Fontera sells butter and cheese brands does not mean that New Zealand will not be exporting butter, cheese and every other dairy product for which there is an export market. These brands may well thrive under new owners.
  
  Take cheese. Exports are growing strongly.
  
  https://www.stats.govt.nz/news/cheese-export-values-stretch-to-new-highs/#:~:text=Cheese%20exports%20rose%20%24763%20million,per%20kilogram%20rose%2026%20percent.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:17am
- Nigel Kearney
  
  A foreign investor will generally want to buy an existing successful business. Starting something new in another country is hard without local knowledge. They will get the profits, but we will keep the jobs, goods and services produced, and the tax revenue. We will also use the proceeds of the sale to do something new, and get the jobs, goods and services produced, tax revenue, and profits from that new thing.
  
  People whining about ‘selling the family silver’ are a big part of what is holding NZ back. If you are against that, you are effectively against foreign investment and in favour of NZ remaining chronically undercapitalised and having low growth. I don’t want that.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:22am
  - Damocles11
    
    The trouble comes when you see what Hurrell and co do with the ‘capital’. Fonterra is only ‘undercapitalised’ due to its past mistakes. It’s like giving yourself a disease then selling your arm for a purported cure.
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:45am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    New Zealand is running a chronic and worsening current account deficit. It can be financed by overseas borrowing or by foreign direct investment. No point complaining about selling off the family silver.
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:51am
    - Damocles11
      
      I’m complaining about how Fonterra’s overall strategy has been to pivot away from value-add, and I’m explaining to you why and how it will end in tragedy.
      
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      May 17, 2024 9:57am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        With respect, are you in a position to make an informed judgement that Fonterra’s decision will “end in tragedy”?
        
        I just searched for a random example of “value added” dairy. Baby milk formula. Exports have gone from nothing to huge in 20 years.
        
        https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102781/new-zealand-baby-formula-export-revenue/#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20the%20revenue%20generated,2.8%20billion%20New%20Zealand%20dollars.
        
        Are you saying that will now collapse?
        
        Here is cheese. Same story.
        
        https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102762/new-zealand-cheese-export-revenue/
        
        Maybe all this is going to turn to tragedy, but you have not convinced me. 🙂
        
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        May 17, 2024 11:01am
      - Jack5
        
        Unrealistic hopes were built for Fonterra in the campaign to merge farmer co-operatives and to allow the Government to bend anti-monopoly rules.
        
        Hype was Fonterra would become a new Nestle, which started as a Swiss condensed-milk producer in 1866 and is now the world’s biggest food company.
        
        Fonterra, processor and marketer, is controlled by its milk suppliers, the farmers. It’s a bit as though Gina Rinehart, of Hancock Prospecting, controlled Baowu Steel and China’s other steel making giants.
        
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        May 17, 2024 11:46am
      - Skippytony
        
        You see this shell game played all the time. “We need to focus on core business” eg sell off some assets to generate some cash. CEO Gets a bonus and moves on.
        
        Two Years later, new CEO “All we need a diversified portfolio to spread risk and manage volatility” Gpoes off on a buying spree. CEO gets a bonus and moves on.
        
        Rinse and repeat…..
        
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        May 17, 2024 11:59am
    - cmm
      
      BY: Missing a NOT maybe?
      
      The deficit can be financed from overseas, but just like charging to your credit card this:
      * Is unsustainable and is not a long term solution.
      * Needs to be paid back, maybe by our grandkids.
      
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      May 17, 2024 9:58am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        New Zealand has been running a current account deficit since 1973. It is a bit too high now, but it has been happening for 50 years, so that seems kind of permanent.
        
        Also the vast majority of overseas debt is PRIVATE debt. It is now about 85 percent of GDP.
        
        https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/new-zealand/external-debt–of-nominal-gdp
        
        EDIT – Until the last couple of years, Australia had also run a current account deficit for 50 years. It now is in current account surplus. Of course, unlike New Zealand, Australia has a broadly bipartisan position on the centrality of oil, gas, and other mining to the prosperity of Australia.
        
        I get that the current government has much to do. But I hope that t least behind the scenes they have work underway on these important issues. I would like to se this term of government as “Fix government”. The second term really needs to be “fix New Zealand”.
        
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        May 17, 2024 10:50am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        No not missing a NOT 🙂
        
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        May 17, 2024 11:01am
      - imalwaysright
        
        “…unlike New Zealand, Australia has a broadly bipartisan position on the centrality of oil, gas, and other mining to the prosperity of Australia.”
        
        That is why New Zealand is a mess.
        
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        May 17, 2024 11:14am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        @imalwaysright,
        Think about the snails, the birdies, the skinks, the stoats and weasels, the feral cats, the hedgehogs – they will all have no home if NZ starts digging and drilling!
        
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        May 17, 2024 5:31pm
- Inandout
  
  D11, if this means a reduction in block cheese prices then I am in favour. Goodman Fielder make their own brand of cheese which is Anchor.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:33am
  - Flossie
    
    I thought Fonterra owned the Anchor brand.
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:49am
    - Inandout
      
      Floss, most confusing.
      ‘Anchor Butter and Anchor Cheese are sold in New Zealand, but the brand for these products in New Zealand is still owned by a Goodman Fielder subsidiary. For butter and cheese the brand was not returned to Fonterra in the brand swap so not all Anchor branded products are Fonterra products in New Zealand.
      
      However, like most dairy products in New Zealand, the milk is still sourced from Fonterra suppliers and for butter and cheese, it is also likely that Fonterra manufactured the products with Goodman Fielder simply packaging the products’.
      
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      May 17, 2024 10:20am
  - Burtland
    
    when did a sell off ever result in lower prices
    
    if theyre sold to Europe, Fonterra will come under additional pressure to become carbon neutral/zero
    
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    May 17, 2024 10:37am
  - Paulus
    
    Goodman F are a foreign company based in Singapore I understand.
    
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    May 17, 2024 2:19pm
- kevn
  
  Damo… NZ farmers have been bust exporting our finest dairy herds/breeding stock to China for probably decades now.
  Never hear much about their dairy farms but it will be on a BiG scale to be sure.
  On the other side, have you noticed the big increase in dairy Intolerant people? There is a gap.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:34am
  - Damocles11
    
    China will move with infinite patience, and then strike. Something ‘unthinkable’ is only unthinkable until it happens, think 9/11, the collapse of the US housing market, the COVID-19 global pandemic. None of these were the Black Swan events they were made out to be, they were very predictable.
    
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    May 17, 2024 9:48am
    - kevn
      
      Damo… There will be a generational plan.
      Also, arden left some of NZs natural assets for them.
      The oil and gas ban will take decades to get exploration and access back to where it was. Marsden Point has been sabotaged making a rebuild very difficult for NZ to achieve.
      
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      May 17, 2024 6:26pm
  - cmm
    
    Fontera started out as a farmers’ coop for the benefit of the farmers.
    Then it became a multi-national.
    It no longer cares about the idea of preserving NZ breeding stock or long term NZ business advantages.
    Like any large corp it is now focused on quarter-to-quarter profits.
    
    If the next quarter can be improved by sending sperm to Chins, then so be it.
    
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    May 17, 2024 10:01am
- Grunter
  
  Damocles11 – what a rant – lots of random points of view….
  
  Regards the ‘selling the family silver’ & we need to sell more value-added argument.
  – Unless you know the actual numbers involved (and I’ll assume you don’t) then you are making a huge assumption that this is not the right thing to do. And it’s important to realise they haven’t agreed to any sale yet, they are in price discovery mode.
  – Uninformed commentators repeatedly say we need more value-added products, which is only true if we can make more money from value-added products. Often that is not the case because the cost-added exceeds the value-added. Basic business 101.
  – A great example is “make value-added products from all our logs”. There is nothing stopping anyone having a crack at NZ made wood products (eg furniture) and having a crack on the world market. But trust me – you will go broke within a few years!
  – NZ trades where we have a comparative advantage over other countries (Econ 101). We don’t have a comparative advantage on most high value sectors. That doesn’t mean we can’t in the future. But branded food products is not something that we will ever be dominant at. We have some small niche plays but that’s never going to move the dial much. Which is exactly what Fonterra have discovered over the last 20 years.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:51am
  - Damocles11
    
    Thank you for your response Miles. My key takeaway from your rebuttal is that NZ can’t do value-add. So we have no option but to continue to sell a few basic commodities to China. It now becomes clear why you need to sell off various parts of your conpany to get cash: this is to buttress Fonterra against the coming storm.
    
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    May 17, 2024 10:04am
    - Grunter
      
      Give me some examples of successful NZ value add food businesses with global scale?
      
      Value add is easy – making money from it is the hard bit. Fonterra were never going to make their branded business work. They should have sold them all off 20 years ago
      
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      May 17, 2024 10:43am
      - Damocles11
        
        Minister Todd McLay seems to think value-add is the way to go, apparently it is a “big opportunity”….just not for good old New Zealand. 😂
        
        ———
        
        ‘McClay, who is also the Trade Minister, said he was not necessarily surprised Fonterra was looking to go down this route.
        
        “I’m starting to see as I’ve been overseas, a lot of the companies who want to partner with New Zealand, looking at that value-added dairy product, as opposed to just taking cheese or butter or milk powder and selling it in their stores.
        
        “There’s a really big opportunity there.”
        
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        May 17, 2024 12:18pm
- MCōs
  
  Certain amount of hyperbole in that comment
  “Much loved” by whom?
  Mainland and Anchor are just cheese and butter
  Mainland used to have those quirky tv ad with the two old codgers advertising overpriced cheese
  Obviously their factory or whatever they owned in China was a lemon and they lost a lot of money, but it wasn’t fatal. They still managed to give Theo Spierings an eye watering amount of money
  That’s capitalism
  
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  May 17, 2024 10:17am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    The best butter to buy is the cheapest on the shelf at the supermarket. 🙂
    
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    May 17, 2024 11:03am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Comes from the same cows – moo
      
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      May 17, 2024 5:33pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Goodman Fielder will snap these brands up. When times are tough the value added is always the first thing to go.
  
  Look at forestry, how often yo we hear about value added? That’s right all the time. Timber companies making products are usually the very first thing to go down the tubes when every single product demand halts, countries want the commodity, it’s not hard to work out why Fonterra are doing this, but if it does not stack up then it’s not viable, it’s different for someone like Goodman Fielder who will want thee brands for putting on shop shelves
  
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  May 17, 2024 1:23pm
The Redbaiter

Damocles11- “Fonterra flogging off the family silver”

Great comment Damocles11. Look forward to reading more from you.
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May 17, 2024 9:00am
- Damocles11
  
  They are flogging off the family silver, the furious “we need foreign capital!” crowd totally missed my overall point that Fonterra have been narrowing their focus since they got in a mess in China. How did they get into a mess in China when they had ‘experienced senior corporate management’? How indeed. The answer to that question is all the information you need on why they will get into trouble again. Hurrell is styling himself as a genius simply by selling off different parts of his company; I can hold a garage sale this weekend and sell a bunch of stuff, it won’t make me a genius though.
  
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  May 17, 2024 9:53am
  - Grunter
    
    I think we all missed it because it was such a jumbled rambling rant!
    
    Fonterra are indeed narrowing their focus – or “sticking to their knitting”. In some cases that is a very sensible business strategy. They gave branded value-add a crack for 20 years – it did not work.
    
    That does not mean they don’t have some value add ingredient products. But their core focus should always be what they are world class at which is global dairy commodities.
    
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    May 17, 2024 11:29am
Bridgenag

Payments by industry to celebrity medical practitioners
Urgent legislation is required.

“Bias exists when professional judgments from registered medical practitioners concerning a primary interest, such as the welfare of patients, may be influenced by secondary interests, such as financial gain or loss. Conflicts of interest can affect how healthcare professionals use, see and interpret evidence. Conflicts of interest, perceived or real, can also cause a huge loss of public trust in medicine, healthcare and government.”

https://open.substack.com/pub/trusttheevidence/p/payments-by-industry-to-celebrity?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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May 17, 2024 9:43am
voltaire

My view (for what its worth) is that F should concentrate on being the most efficient efficient converter of milk (collected at the farm gate) to products like milk powder, proteins, food ingredients and such like in the world.

There is an essential dichotomy in farmers wanting the best return at the farm gate and F investing, marketing and distributing consumer branded products.

This is because to do the consumer products successfully (a la Nestle) F needs more margin and the best way to obtain a better margin is to lower your input costs i.e what you pay farmers. That formula simply does not work if a farmer wants to maximise their farm gate returns.

Also I also submit that once this divestment is complete, F switch to selling in NZD thus reducing costs further by getting rid of their very expensive forex/treasury division.
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May 17, 2024 9:44am
Bridgenag

Francis Collins’ House Testimony Released
His shocking answers speak for themselves…

“The hypothesis that the COVID-19 pandemic was the result of a lab leak or lab related accident is not a conspiracy theory. Despite previously disagreeing with the lab leak theory — both in public and in private — Dr. Collins testified that the lab leak hypothesis is indeed not a conspiracy”

theory.https://open.substack.com/pub/rwmalonemd/p/francis-collins-house-testimony-released?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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May 17, 2024 9:50am
- cmm
  
  That there was a lab leak is no longer debatable.
  
  There are maybe 10,000 wet markets in China. If it really was some mutant bat, then it could have happened at any one of those 10,000 wt markets.
  
  But no, it happened at the wet market 300 metres from the virus research centre. Talk about bad luck!
  
  The only question is how did it leak.
  
  Was it deliberate? I doubt it. If it was they would have released the virus in a wet market far away from the research centre.
  
  Was it an accident or failure of protocol? Most likely. eg:
  * Someone flushed a test tube down the wrong drain by mistake.
  * A cleaner stole some dead research animals and sold them at the wet market.
  
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  May 17, 2024 10:13am
graham

Your casual racism is starting to get a bit tiresome, Maggie.

Just saying …
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May 17, 2024 9:53am
Damocles11

‘Fairness’ and ‘justice’…..the same words the Left uses in NZ and around the world. The revolution in China was in order to usher in a ‘fair’ and ‘just’ communist society; Mao ushered in repression and The Cultural Revolution, and his collectivist Great Leap Forward resulted in a famine which is estimated to have killed 30 million people. Yes, the intellectuals in China were all for it. Yes, intellectuals are all for the modern Left.
Who defines what is ‘fair’ and ‘just’?!

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/517041/putin-and-xi-pledge-a-new-era-and-condemn-the-united-states

‘Xi, 70, and Putin, 71, signed a joint statement on Thursday about the “new era” that proclaimed opposition to the United States on a host of security issues and a shared view on everything from Taiwan and Ukraine to North Korea and cooperation on new peaceful nuclear technologies and finance.

“The China-Russia relationship today is hard-earned, and the two sides need to cherish and nurture it,” Xi told Putin.

“China is willing to … jointly achieve the development and rejuvenation of our respective countries, and work together to uphold fairness and justice in the world.”‘
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May 17, 2024 10:30am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Donald J Trump will have a few words with them after he is POTUS.
  It will be ‘re-negotiate.’ I am not joking.
  
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  May 17, 2024 5:45pm
Maggie Pie

Meant to mention this earlier actually.
Anyone else hear Hosk early this morning ripping into the Greens?
I was drying my hair and heard him saying how great James Shaw must be feeling now….. looking at the view out the window of his 39th floor office as a Director-of-Greenbridge-Capital. Knowing he no longer has to be associated with the biggest pack of losers and oddballs God ever put breath into.
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May 17, 2024 10:31am
- greybeard
  
  I heard it. I loved it, and I would be surprised if any Green MP ever appears on his program again !
  
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  May 17, 2024 11:02am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    😀
    
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    May 17, 2024 11:08am
- Benedict Yu
  
  I doubt that any of these problems will dent their vote. 15 years ago they were (mostly) an environmental party which could attract prosperous folk who wanted to make the flowers grow and to save moths. Now they are just a plain old communist party.
  
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  May 17, 2024 11:10am
  - imalwaysright
    
    I don’t think that there would be many communists who would welcome these Greens into their fold.
    Even communists have standards!
    
    10 1
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    May 17, 2024 11:25am
  - JimBobJoe
    
    Which is good for a few reasons:
    
    1- its easy to convince people they are mad and bad
    
    2 – Communists ALWAYS have internal schisms and become incoherent – result power struggles
    
    3 – because of 2 its possible that the NZ Greens will fracture into 2 or more parties in the next 3 to 5 years, and become electorally unimportant.
    
    The NZ Right should be seeking the fracture points in the NZ Greens and pressing on them relentlessly…
    
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    May 17, 2024 11:51am
    - MCōs
      
      The right, in the shape of Act, have their own credibility problems with the voters and that’s what matters, or should matter.
      For all their discipline problems with four MPs I can recall the Greens are still outnumbering Act in parliament and outpolling them.
      
      1 8
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      May 17, 2024 1:12pm
      - JimBobJoe
        
        Nice segue Cossie…. make it all about the Right…
        
        The Greens – not what they were when Rod was around. But then the electorate nowadays is definitely stupider than it was as demonstrated by their support for communism dressed up in drag and pretending to care about the environment
        
        10 0
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        May 17, 2024 3:38pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        @jim,
        The Greens are not the Greens of yesteryear.
        I used to donate to Greenpeace. Now the Greens have become a Marxist and Communist bunch of bastards. They want to destroy Capitalism!
        
        3 1
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        May 17, 2024 6:00pm
cmm

Good to see a reasonable call on a self-defence case.

There are far too many real criminal offences that need these resources. It would be pointless to waste them here.

I think decent people need to be far more comfortable with the idea of self defence.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350280960/city-mission-fatal-stabbing-murder-charge-dropped
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May 17, 2024 11:06am
- Benedict Yu
  
  This is a Florida sheriff. “If someone is breaking into your home, shoot him”. 🙂
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUcoGevAf2k
  
  He congratulates the shooter and makes a pitch for shooting courses so home owners can shoot better.
  
  Here is a specific example from the USA, all caught on film.
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg4_D-xWOCE
  
  Start at 2:50
  
  Crazy ex boyfriend of daughter starts kicking down door. Father shoots him. He faced no charges.
  
  The boyfriend was unarmed. In New Zealand would the father have been charged with murder?
  
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  May 17, 2024 11:20am
  - JimBobJoe
    
    Yes in NZ this would have resulted in a murder charge being laid by the NZ Police.
    
    9 0
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    May 17, 2024 11:52am
    - info@cruzpro.com
      
      If that happened to anyone in New Zealand hopefully that person could ask for a trial by a jury of his/her peers. I would be surprised if that person would be convicted.
      
      Seem to remember a farmer that put a shotgun bullet through the neck of one of three thieves trying to steal his quad farm bike. The thief survived but the farmer was not convicted.
      
      5 0
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      May 17, 2024 1:22pm
      - cmm
        
        You might not end up convicted, but it is still a massive drama going through the wringer.
        
        6 0
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        May 17, 2024 2:29pm
  - cmm
    
    If someone breaks into your house then I think they have decided that they no longer are entitled to any “rights” any more.
    
    Of course any shooting should be investigated, but the standard starting point is different for different places.
    
    In NZ, the starting position would likely be murder/man slaughter but if subsequent investigation shows a very clear self defence case then the murder/man slaughter charge will be dropped (as happened here).
    
    I think there should be far more of an ability for this to be cleared up sooner so that a person exercising their right to self defence does not have this all hanging over their head for a long time.
    
    I was once involved in a shooting (not fatal) in South Africa. I was quite relieved when the police didn’t even talk about pressing charges or investigation etc. I did, however, get called as a witness in the case against the offender I had shot.
    
    4 0
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    May 17, 2024 2:37pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Oh yes the Father would be charged of murder for sure in NZ. The boyfriend was unarmed?
    Never saw a gun, but if there was it would be down in the belt behind his back. The video of him on the ground is covered, so gun/no gun?
    End of the day if someone tries to break into you house – and does, you don’t offer them a cup of tea. 20mm stainless steel curtain rod is ok, but it don’t stop firearms.
    
    1 1
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    May 17, 2024 6:24pm
Chuck Bird

FYI

Why The Middle East Won’t Accept Palestinian Refugees

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7GAg8sWDpI&t=2s
9 1
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May 17, 2024 11:20am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Isn’t it great that New Zealand does not accept Palestinian refugees?
  
  2 1
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  May 17, 2024 6:30pm
Maggie Pie

Just tried to access the ‘X’ account of that nasty chap who threw the tomato juice all over Posie Parker. Was keen to see if there’s any mention of when his next court appeareance is. Unfortunately he’s made it private now.
Anyone else know when the date is?
Golly’s is on the 24th of next month and that will be interesting as well.

https://chrislynchmedia.com/news-items/protestor-who-threw-tomato-juice-charged-with-assault
9 2
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May 17, 2024 11:29am
- Muttonbird
  
  I wonder if Nosey Parker will bother showing up this time.
  
  1 5
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  May 17, 2024 6:36pm
  - Pineapple Lumps
    
    What’s with all the incorrect names, muttonturd?
    
    5 0
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    May 17, 2024 8:09pm
JimBobJoe

Deos anyone know if Paul Burns has actually appeared in Court? (see link below for background)

Or have the Police walked it back and withdrawn the charge?

Today is the scheduled day referred to in the link.

https://www.fsu.nz/man_arrested_for_offending
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May 17, 2024 11:54am
MCōs

Celtic won the Scottish league
https://x.com/sirstevotimothy/status/1791196574791459165?s=46&t=XZLqGbhN-xeYzprhTaktsg
1 1
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May 17, 2024 11:56am
- Jinky
  
  Third year in a row.
  
  0 0
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  May 18, 2024 8:18am
Maggy Wassilieff

Does Peter Dunne have the inside goods on machinations within Labour?

https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/05/17/the-contest-for-the-future-heart-and-soul-of-the-labour-party/#more-28971

(personally, I doubt it……)
3 0
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May 17, 2024 12:52pm
Ghost

Herald has done a puff piece on Julie Anne

Paywalled article

Green Rongotai MP Julie Anne Genter has admitted she crossed a line when she yelled in the face of a minister in Parliament and says she will receive de-escalation training to recognise when she’s in “fight or flight” mode.In her first extended interview since the heated incident this month, Genter told the Herald she hopes it will not become the defining moment of her 12-year career as an MP.

Looks like this is one greens investigation that will be a nothing burger

Green Party co-leaders Marama Davidson and Chlöe Swarbrick have called the behaviour “completely unacceptable” but have ruled out stripping Genter of her portfolios as an option in their disciplinary process.

If only Elizabeth Kerekere hadn’t resigned, she could be leader now, or was that bully different
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May 17, 2024 1:31pm
- MCōs
  
  Kerekere wasn’t one of the high value members of the Green caucus by the time she resigned
  
  4 1
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  May 17, 2024 2:02pm
- david
  
  “….and says she will receive de-escalation training …..”
  Interesting that you “educate” people but “train” dogs and monkeys.
  Just sayin.
  
  7 0
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  May 17, 2024 3:19pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  I think the Greens need JAG, to keep on poking the bear. They are running out of loudmouths and instigators!
  
  4 1
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  May 17, 2024 6:36pm
Swifty

A new book released – just perfect for Maggie Pie:

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/6dPRwJ4ZanivxTER/?mibextid=WC7FNe
3 0
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May 17, 2024 1:43pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  “Fire in the hole!”
  
  LOL!!!!
  
  5 0
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  May 17, 2024 2:18pm
David Garrett

Check this out…

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350280877/sex-worker-admits-killing-father-two-daniel-otess-auckland-car-park

The killer may get a prison sentence…FFS, the justice system has gone completely and utterly mad.
10 0
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May 17, 2024 1:55pm
- cmm
  
  If this had been self defence, then fine.
  
  However it was not. It was armed robbery escalated to murder + robbery.
  
  If you can’t even go to prison for that then wtf are we building prisons for?
  
  8 0
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  May 17, 2024 2:41pm
  - David Garrett
    
    cmm: to be fair, manslaughter is probably the correct charge…the definition of which is “killing by an unlawful act without intent to kill” – but a prison sentence for manslaughter – particularly given this set of facts – should be a certainty not just a possibility. And given that the maximum sentence for manslaughter is life, I would have thought a sentence of ten years or so would be appropriate.
    
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    May 17, 2024 2:54pm
    - fernglas
      
      Apart from Dean Wickliffe, who got life, you would be hard pressed to find anyone who has been given 10 years for manslaughter in this country. Appalling vehicular homicides, brutal child killings and coward punches all seem to attract absurdly light sentences. Google Ngatikaura Ngati, check out the autopsy photo’s that are available, and wonder what you would have to do to get double figures for manslaughter.
      
      5 0
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      May 17, 2024 3:28pm
    - cmm
      
      DG: Yup, thanks for the clarification. I was using murder in the more colloquial sense of the word.
      
      But no intent to kill when you poke multiple holes in a person with a sharp blade?
      
      Crimes Act says Murder includes:
      167(b): if the offender means to cause to the person killed any bodily injury that is known to the offender to be likely to cause death, and is reckless whether death ensues or not.
      
      I would say all the criteria are met here:
      * person killed
      * clearly an intent to cause bodily injury
      * clearly done in a way that could be likely to cause death.
      * was reckless as to whether death ensued.
      
      Tick, tick, tick, tick. Murder.
      
      3 0
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      May 17, 2024 4:37pm
      - fernglas
        
        The fatal wound was a severed artery in the arm. Very unlikely that this could be considered to be an injury known to be likely to cause death unless it was done deliberately (ie the artery was targeted with the knowledge that severing it would be likely to cause death). That is what you missed in your analysis above ……. “known to the offender to be likely to cause death”
        
        1 1
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        May 17, 2024 5:02pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Stop Co-Governance. Julian Batchelor.

Tikanga Part 9.

https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/tikanga-what-it-is-and-why-it-must-be-stopped-from-becoming-law-in-new-zealand-part-9/?
6 3
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May 17, 2024 2:14pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Only one downtick today?
  Come on guys, you can give me more! LOL.
  
  3 2
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  May 17, 2024 6:39pm
MCōs

There was on article on Stuff on the 13th about the car that was stolen with a baby in the back seat
https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350276858/car-stolen-baby-inside-waitara-north-taranaki
There seems to be contradictory information
“The car was left running and the owner had just exited a Waitara store” it says, which caused the woman to be pilloried on this forum as if the car theft and kidnapping was all her fault
However the article also says, quoting a bystander
“ “[The thief] ripped her out of her car and ran her over,” Martin said.”
So, which one is it?
6 1
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May 17, 2024 2:23pm
Maggie Pie

I’ll tell you something else that really grinds my gears…. the thousands of those green electric scooters that people leave strewn around the streets 🙁

Took the furbaby for a walk last night and came across one left laying right across the footpath in Arney Rd.
Very nearly tripped right over it. Actually, I inadvertantly trod on it trying to get past
and heard something snap.

They’re an accident waiting to happen if you ask me. I’m going to fire an email off to the Mayor and request action.
9 2
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May 17, 2024 2:30pm
- cmm
  
  Train your dog to “autograph” them.
  
  Yup, I agree they are a hazard. If they are blocking the path then kick them into the road.
  
  7 0
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  May 17, 2024 2:43pm
- MCōs
  
  Not an issue in Manukau City, but what is are vehicles parked on footpaths. Usually utes/vans belonging to tradies working on adjacent building sites who can’t be bothered carrying their gear from ten metres down the road
  Now that I’m shambling round with a cane I have a mobility card and one of the few delights in my otherwise miserable existence is being able to use designated car parks except when some perfectly healthy bastard takes up the space
  $200 fine, I believe, for not displaying a card
  I saw a car get towed once.
  I never used to notice until I was the cripple!
  
  6 1
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  May 17, 2024 3:22pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    And people have become sooo dam BOLSHY these days if you pull into one of those disabled car parks without a Mobility Permit.
    My partner keeps his late uncle’s one in the glovebox and puts it up on the dash cam when needed. The funniest thing is, when he thinks someone might be watching, he gets out of the car like Steady Eddy.
    LOL!!
    
    4 7
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    May 17, 2024 3:43pm
    - marleybob
      
      You must be so proud Maggie.
      
      4 0
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      May 17, 2024 5:36pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Steady Eddy the snooker player?
      
      2 0
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      May 17, 2024 7:02pm
    - MCōs
      
      I saw some people of that ilk just yesterday
      Three of them bounding out of some pitiful heap with a counterfeit mobility card
      
      1 0
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      May 17, 2024 8:03pm
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        Steady on, Cossie. They might have a mental disability or some such. You can’t always tell by looking, you know!
        
        3 0
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        May 17, 2024 9:13pm
    - julesnzuk
      
      How old are you, Maggie?
      
      1 2
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      May 17, 2024 9:25pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350281862/man-fined-600-great-white-shark-decapitation
This is mildly interesting, because although it is illegal to catch and/or kill one of these creatures apparently they have some special relevance to maori.
“DOC staff are recovering the head and jaw, which will be gifted back to iwi.”
7 0
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May 17, 2024 2:31pm
- MCōs
  
  Pity it doesn’t work the other way round, but unless it regurgitates an atm card you’re out of luck
  We were fishing near Kerikeri and a shark bit off half the kingfish I had on the line.
  I was left with the front half which moved around the bottom of the boat for the next 15min before calling it a day
  That’ll be $50 fine
  
  4 0
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  May 17, 2024 3:34pm
- John Loveridge
  
  What are the iwi going to do with it?
  
  2 1
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  May 17, 2024 9:40pm
Chuck Bird

FYI

Democrat BREAKS DOWN CRYING After Taylor Greene Revealed SH0CKING Image Of Hunter Biden’s Crimes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfoCSuO3n3w
5 1
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May 17, 2024 2:36pm
Ghost

For anyone that is interested in the topic, Dr Steven Greer has put all his files online for anyone to look at

In 2022, Dr. Greer was asked by senior members in Senate Intelligence to provide information about the UFO/UAP subject. This archive is the result of that request. This collection contains over 33 years of Dr. Greer’s extensive research and evidence from military and government contractor whistleblowers. This archive is a work in progress and will continue to be refined and expanded as time goes on. THERE IS STILL WORK TO BE DONE ON IT IN TERMS OF CATEGORIZATION AND LABELING, but we wanted to release the information as soon as we could.

Disclosure Project Intelligence Archive
3 0
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May 17, 2024 6:55pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Ghost, look behind you – no, turn again, they are behind you.
  Right turn, nope they are behind you. Invisible in a mirror.
  // 🙂
  
  2 1
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  May 17, 2024 7:26pm

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