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April 20, 2024 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 20 April 2024

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General Debate

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mikenmildagain

4/20 today.
Blaze it?
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April 20, 2024 8:01am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Bit early, not even 8.30.
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:19am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Always been some buzz about whether it refers to the date, April 20, or the time, 4.20 pm.
    
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    April 20, 2024 8:22am
    - Pineapple Lumps
      
      Might need to change your party affiliations from Labour to Greens Mike. They are more likely to join you in celebrating cannabis culture.
      
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      April 20, 2024 8:58am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        He did want to blaze up
        
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        April 20, 2024 12:36pm
    - Flossie
      
      In New Zealand April 20th would be 20/4.
      
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      April 20, 2024 9:08am
      - thirteenstars
        
        Technically, even pedantically, but observing the original vernacular makes more sense. After all, we don’t say 11/9 for 9/11.
        
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        April 20, 2024 11:48am
  - thirteenstars
    
    Having visited the Coromandel for an extended period last year I can tell you the time of the day is irrelevant.
    
    The scent of weed is as commonplace as the electric scooters and the two often go together, which is alarming because those things can move and are silent-but-deadly.
    
    The police up there have a, ahem, rather relaxed posture.
    
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    April 20, 2024 9:40am
    - Flossie
      
      Having resided in the Coromandel for a period of several years I disagree. There’s no more weed here amongst the general populace than in any of the other places I have lived.
      
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      April 20, 2024 10:30am
      - thirteenstars
        
        I spent a year there, mainly in Whitianga, a lot of daily walking and I can assure you hardly a day went by when I didn’t have one or two pungent reminders.
        
        I’m not condemning it, you understand. It is what it is and nobody seemed to mind. C’est la vie.
        
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        April 20, 2024 10:52am
      - Matt Long
        
        Flossie, it may depend on the circles in which one moves.
        
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        April 20, 2024 11:54am
      - NZer In Exile
        
        How do you know Flossie? Most dope smoking is somewhat furtive due to it being (to various degrees) illegal.
        
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        April 20, 2024 3:36pm
  - Pineapple Lumps
    
    Mike making a dope of himself again.
    
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    April 20, 2024 10:55am
- NZer In Exile
  
  Ah! This would explain a lot Milky. 😆
  
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  April 20, 2024 3:34pm
Anthony Melchett

New Swedish right-wing government:

Removed climate taxes causing fuel prices to collapse.

SCRAPPED Agenda 2030 global goals from government directives.

Removed renewable energy goals and will focus on nuclear power.

Going against cashless agenda.
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April 20, 2024 8:02am
- kowtow
  
  That’s very interesting .
  
  AFAIK Sweden was the first country to legislate against legal tender in what was an opening salvo in the war on real money .
  
  Talking of so called fossil fuels , the US economy is doing very well due to same ( source WSJ) , despite Sleepy Creepy Joe’s openly hostile anti attitude . But yet he and the rest of the left will take credit for the economy when in fact it’s due to good ole hydro carbons !
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:34am
- jkt
  
  We are in this together!!
  
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  April 20, 2024 10:17am
- Nigel Kearney
  
  At the moment I’m in a country where 95 Octane is NZ$0.73 per litre (they don’t sell 91). That’s what petrol should cost when the government doesn’t add extra.
  
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  April 20, 2024 12:27pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  Not surprising. Massive influx of garbage immigration probably helped swing voters to face reality.
  
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  April 20, 2024 3:38pm
Swifty

The best documentary you’ll ever see on Mr William F. Buckley Jr:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_V8Yg4aPOZc&pp=ygUbVGhlIGluc3VmZmVyYWJsZSBtciBidWNrbGV5

For me, a quite fascinating character and a highly significant figure in US politics in the latter half of the 20th Century.
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April 20, 2024 8:05am
- mikenmildagain
  
  I recommend the doco about his debate with Gore Vidal.
  
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  April 20, 2024 10:34am
  - Che Guava
    
    Gore Vidal may have been a completely up-himself liberal luvvy (in this way, a perfect mirror-image of the so-called conservative Buckley), but he was under no illusions about how the US operated at home and abroad, how it was run, and who ran it.
    
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    April 20, 2024 11:20am
- Che Guava
  
  William Buckley led the charge against America first paleo-conservatism back in the day in favour of the Reaganite globalist neoliberalism that has led America to its present dire state.
  
  And he was a CIA agent with lifelong connections to the Deep State.
  
  https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2007-mar-04-op-buckley4-story.html
  
  “I met E. Howard Hunt soon after arriving in Mexico City in 1951. I was a deep-cover agent for the CIA — deep-cover describing, I was given to understand, a category whose members were told to take extreme care not to permit any grounds for suspicion that one was in service to the CIA.”
  
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  April 20, 2024 11:17am
- NZer In Exile
  
  Comes across as a pompous ass but is actually very good. His interview with Timothy Leary is quite amusing.
  
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  April 20, 2024 3:39pm
Anthony Melchett

When I look up the Dubai flooding, there are many media outlets and fact checkers quick to say that it has nothing to do with cloud seeding.

Based on this, I’m guessing it’s fair to say it has plenty to do with cloud seeding?
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April 20, 2024 8:05am
- Stellaboxer
  
  I’m not sure about the cloud seeding thingy but if it doesn’t make it rain you have to ask why they would do it.
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:33am
- Inandout
  
  AM, this flooding happened 75 years ago in Dubai and goodness knows how many times before that.
  
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  April 20, 2024 11:18am
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Yep. Not at all unprecedented. MSM just spraying sensationalist diarrhoea as usual, for clicks and $$$, with alarmist grifter “scientists” shamefully not correcting it.
    
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    April 20, 2024 3:42pm
Bridgenag

Friday Funnies: DON’T
Marked “SAFE” from cannibals today

Great video from OZ

https://open.substack.com/pub/rwmalonemd/p/friday-funnies-dont?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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April 20, 2024 8:06am
Benedict Yu

Sadly, this episode of Mr Luxon confirms the reservations I have long held about him. He seems terrified of offending people, like the “Maori Law Society”, who are going to be hostile to this government forever.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/04/19/luxon-jones-seymours-waitangi-tribunal-comments-ill-considered/

Why does the Waitangi Tribunal have the power to summon a Minister so that she can be attacked by the Tribunal? The only reason she is being brought in is that the Tribunal is infuriated by the policy. Of course that policy is designed to stop Oranga Tamariki from using race as a criteria for choosing foster parents for Maori children who are in desperate need of care and security.

It is going to be a rocky road if Chris Luxon acts like this every time a Minister offends these people.
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April 20, 2024 8:06am
- G152
  
  Delete the Waitangi Tribunal because of their attacks upon the elected representatives of New Zealanders…
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:12am
  - Grumpy Silver Top
    
    Wasn’t the Waitangi Tribunal just that, ie a tribunal (3 judges?) that has grown fat on our taxes as they have spread their influence too far and too wide?
    
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    April 20, 2024 2:02pm
- Rich Prick
  
  Once Were Lawyers.
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:15am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  You are overstating it vastly. The officials who appeared at the tribunal advised that only the minister could explain the reasons for the policy change. The tribunal can hardly be expected to form a view on the proposed legislative change without hearing from the minister in charge of the policy.
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:16am
  - Scott
    
    It’s not often I agree with Mikey. Luxon is doing alright. He speaks softly but he is carrying a big stick. And this govt is repealing and reforming more legislation under urgency and at greater speed than any govt in history. Including on racial issues. 3 waters gone. Maori health authority gone. More to come.
    
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    April 20, 2024 8:19am
  - Lenticular
    
    They haven’t asked, they’ve made a legal demand. Summon is the correct word. And yes, it’s unprecedented.
    
    This government needs to use legislation to disarm the illiberal leftists like yourself before you damage our constitutional framework even more.
    
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    April 20, 2024 8:21am
    - Chris R
      
      It may well be unprecedented but it rests well within the Law. Your gratuitous interpretation of the “constitutional framework” is flimsy at best.
      
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      April 20, 2024 10:27am
  - Clyde
    
    And just explain what the Waitangi Tribunal are doing in this case? Their job was to facilitate the various land claims (settled multiple times finally and fully) and that’s it. A bunch of interfering entitled shills with their snouts fully immersed in the trough. Luxon, Peters and Seymour should wind up their funding IMMEDIATELY.
    
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    April 20, 2024 9:00am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      That is only part of their job. That is the problem.
      
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      April 20, 2024 9:21am
    - peterwn
      
      Softly softly catchee monkey.
      
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      April 20, 2024 9:51am
  - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
    
    Who cares if they wish to form a view on a topic vastly beyond their remit. Perhaps they could read Hansard to discover the Ministers thinking?
    
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    April 20, 2024 9:59am
  - bennerg
    
    Could have been done with a letter, rather than a “summons”.
    
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    April 20, 2024 10:00am
  - In Vino Veritas
    
    Quite right mike. Graeme Edgeler explained this the other day. The Tribunal is essentially a commission of enquiry (albeit a permanent one) and has the power to compel Ministers to appear. Crown Law are challenging the Tribunals summons in the High Court. If they lose, Chour will appear. However, if the Bill is introduced to Parliament, the Tribunal will step aside|stand down. This has happened before with the repeal of 3 Waters. Tribunal issued please attend notices, Coalition introduced bill, Tribunal stepped aside.
    
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    April 20, 2024 10:23am
    - Nigel Kearney
      
      I have no problem with courts compelling Ministers to appear. I do have a problem with courts that consider laws passed or proposed by Parliament to be matters they are entitled to investigate.
      
      If you are saying they can make the Minister testify about a law change Parliament is considering but has not yet introduced, I fail to understand the reasons for that distinction.
      
      Also, if a court or tribunal exercises a non-judicial function, they cannot expect to benefit from the convention that MPs do not criticise the judiciary.
      
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      April 20, 2024 12:35pm
  - JimBobJoe
    
    Why does the Tribunal need to get involved at all. Its just more Left wing obstruction of running NZ for all NZers.
    
    Time for the Tribunal to be disestablished as it has out lived its role
    
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    April 20, 2024 12:21pm
- Matt Long
  
  Seymour’s comments here,
  https://x.com/dbseymour/status/1780778476422705424
  The minister is trying to role back the racial imperialism that sees a child who has miniscule Maori ancestry, torn away from its foster parents to satisfy the egos of radical fools.
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:21am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    I am sure that the PM is aware of the policy. That is not the issue.
    
    The reprimand was for saying unkind things about the Tribunal.
    
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    April 20, 2024 8:28am
    - Matt Long
      
      It appears the Tribunal should be rebuked for summoning a minister for rolling back a very racist and harmful regulation.
      On the other hand metaphors like Jumped the Shark, and Giving Enough Rope to Hang Themselves come to mind.
      So go more radical Tribunal, all power to your self destructive tendencies.
      
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      April 20, 2024 10:27am
    - Chris R
      
      It wasn’t a “reprimand” it was an observation. As PM he is as entitled as anyone to make an observation. Whether Mr Seymour or Mr Peters take notice of the PM’s observation is entirely up to them.
      
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      April 20, 2024 10:30am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    If you present the most extreme characterization of a policy, you can be sure of winning the argument.
    
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    April 20, 2024 8:34am
    - Jack5
      
      Morning Mike: Characterisation of a policy as extreme is a matter of opinion. Your statement is wrong.
      
      More relevant to the discussion is the pressure on Luxon from the National Old Guard.
      
      National is plagued by never-gonna-let-go eminences grises like Chris Finlayson, Jenny Shipley, and Jim Bolger.
      
      All of them are warm to, or perhaps in Finlayson’s case is a champion of, Maori Treaty-ism.
      
      They will be working, working, working on Luxon.
      
      Thank goodness the coalition has Seymour and Peters to counter the political equivalent of a National RSA.
      
      Those oldies need to remember it’s the Maori Party that predominantly represents Maori.
      
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      April 20, 2024 9:27am
  - Grumpy Silver Top
    
    My respect for David Seymour’s intelligence and integrity grows every time I read or listen to his comments. So much misguided activity needs to be ripped out. Go David.
    
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    April 20, 2024 2:06pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Does Luxon not understand that he is shitting in his own nest?
  He is on the road to nowhere. We may even see a leadership challenge soon. Best do it now instead of in 2026.
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:33am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Yeah I think you are dreaming. 😅
    
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    April 20, 2024 8:36am
    - imalwaysright
      
      “Yeah I think you are dreaming”
      
      Maybe not.
      Luxon has shown that none of his government are off limits to being publically chastised by him, yet everyone else gets seemingly preferential treatment.
      This is wearing very thin, very rapidly.
      
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      April 20, 2024 9:00am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        Maybe with you. A leadership challenge in this term would guarantee a one term government.
        
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        April 20, 2024 9:23am
      - Ghost
        
        How strange a leader holding his minister to the rules of the cabinet manual. Guess people are just used to how Ardern ran the government and don’t want Luxon to expect more from his ministers than what they disliked about Ardern
        
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        April 20, 2024 11:51am
      - Grumpy Silver Top
        
        @imalwaysright; Do you believe everything thatv is reported in MSM? I can only surmise that you do based on your comments.
        
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        April 20, 2024 2:09pm
  - Pope Punctilious II
    
    Leadership challenge? By whom? Face it – the Nats are a liberal party with a sprinkling of conservatives, none of whom are in a position to challenge Luxon. The obvious successor is Willis, who is more liberal than Luxon on most issues.
    
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    April 20, 2024 8:46am
    - RoboRob
      
      I imagine next election will see a similar government but with increased act and nzf mps. Nz needs change and a leader who is not afraid to make unpopular decisions. luxon may be good at many things but he is certainly certainly is not that.
      
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      April 20, 2024 10:54am
      - Pope Punctilious II
        
        I hope you’re right about an increased ACT & NZF vote in 2026.
        
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        April 20, 2024 2:34pm
      - Ghost
        
        I don’t think so. I don’t see Winston first getting back in because I don’t think Winston will be in politics then. Without out him Winston first is gone.
        
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        April 20, 2024 2:52pm
      - julesnzuk
        
        What I don’t understand is that de-Maorification, abolishing the Waitangi Tribunal, getting rid of made up treaty “principles” etc wouldn’t be unpopular – quite the contrary. There would be a lot of squealing by a vocal minority but why is he afraid of them?
        
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        April 20, 2024 9:00pm
    - Matt Long
      
      The Conservatives have proven there are an unlimited succession of liberal progressives who will pick up the batten of world socialism in legacy “centre right” political parties.
      
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      April 20, 2024 10:59am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      There is one person who has been there a while and very capable of being PM.
      I will let you all guess.
      
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      April 20, 2024 11:05am
  - peterwn
    
    He is not that thick!
    
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    April 20, 2024 11:22am
- rouppe
  
  I caught that part of the news last night. They talked about the “long standing principle of not criticizing the judiciary”.
  
  The judiciary? The Waitangi Tribunal is not a court. It’s a bunch of lawyers in a room. Paid for by the Crown, sure, but they’re no more judiciary than a bunch of lawyers from Deloitte.
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:39am
  - Chris R
    
    The Waitangi Tribunal is a COURT. Did you imagine it was a knitting circle for Maoris?
    
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    April 20, 2024 10:32am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      See my comment elsewhere in the thread.
      
      From its own website…
      
      “The Waitangi Tribunal is unusual in that it was established as a permanent commission of inquiry. It differs from a court in several important respects:…”
      
      [It then goes on to explain why it is not a court.]
      
      https://www.waitangitribunal.govt.nz/about/
      
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      April 20, 2024 10:55am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Originally set up by Matiu Rata to ‘advise’ Government on Treaty affairs.
        
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        April 20, 2024 11:11am
    - peterwn
      
      Complete with a Maori Madame Defarge?
      
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      April 20, 2024 11:24am
    - kowtow
      
      Isn’t .
      
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      April 20, 2024 12:01pm
    - rouppe
      
      What an ugly remark.
      
      It is not a court. It is a tribunal. They give (their biased version of) advice. They do not make rulings. Of any kind, let alone binding ones
      
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      April 20, 2024 9:04pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  I agree with Shane Jones:
  “The Waitangi Tribunal has no business running its operations as some sort of star chamber delivering summons for ministers to rock up and be cross-examined or grilled.”
  Do we have two Court Systems in NZ?
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:44am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    The Tribunal is a “permanent commission of Inquiry”. So yes they can summons ministers whenever they like.
    
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    April 20, 2024 9:24am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Their right to summons expires when the relevant matter becomes legislation.
      
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      April 20, 2024 10:50am
    - RoboRob
      
      Perhaps that needs to be changed. Most settlements are long done and dusted. The remaining ones are from tribes who will likely never agree amongst themselves. Perhaps this government needs to end the tribunal.
      
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      April 20, 2024 10:56am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      Correction:
      
      On further research, I now understand that the Tribunal has “limited” power to summons. So my comment was incorrect.
      
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      April 20, 2024 10:57am
      - 70andstilllearning
        
        Which will be why Crown Law has lodged a challenge seeking the initiation of an urgent judicial review.
        “If the Crown proceeds to the High Court, a hearing has been set for 26 April, as per a memorandum by Judge Michael Doogan. Doogan urged Chhour to instead voluntarily attend the hearing to provide evidence.
        
        The judge indicated that the hearing must finish before mid-May, when the proposed bill is introduced and the tribunal’s jurisdiction over the matter ends.”
        
        Through his “urging of the Minister to appear voluntarily” Doogan appears to now be back pedaling and is perhaps getting desperate to achieve something before his tribunal is totally irrelevant on the matter.
        https://www.thelawyermag.com/nz/news/general/crown-lawyers-challenge-summons-of-minister-by-waitangi-tribunal/485745
        
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        April 20, 2024 11:57am
  - Paulus
    
    Yes, and more obvious one Overriding Court Unelected, and the Elected Parliament, and we know who is winning.
    
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    April 20, 2024 1:30pm
  - peterwn
    
    And the Star Chamber was abolished since it morphed from a special court to get things done quickly into a feared establishment to do the dirty work of the King and the politically powerful.
    
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    April 20, 2024 5:36pm
- Dave
  
  I notice that the Maori lawyers’ letter refers to the Waitangi Tribunal as an independent commission which ‘serves a function akin to a Court’.
  
  Hmm. So not a court then, and where have I heard that phrase, ‘akin to’, whose initial use and subsequent omission/disregard has caused endless, constitutionally destructive misunderstanding?
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:18am
  - Stellaboxer
    
    The problem INMHO is that we have at the moment a certain section of society that have been led to believe they are special and more important than the rest of us, that their circumstances are not their own fault but the fault of others and this can only be remedied by the majority giving them things. They are to be honest victims but not victims in the sense they have been seduced into seeing themselves as but rather the victims of the racism of low expectations and being robbed of any agency. Constant statistics broadcasts their failures to “them” and “us” alike as if they were one thing rather than a group made up individuals. On top of this they have a hierarchy of appalling grifters to represent them that has a vested interest in making sure nothing changes and any financial dealings end up in their own pockets.
    
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    April 20, 2024 9:53am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    “Luxon this morning said he believed the Treaty was “akin to a partnership” between the Crown and iwi, and that his Government would continue approaching Treaty”
    Jan 2024.
    
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/pms-view-of-treaty-as-akin-to-partnership-conflicts-with-act-leader-david-seymours-position/WAMV3Y67AJFD7LQ7IM276UUWMU/
    
    There he goes with his co-governance nonsense.
    
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    April 20, 2024 11:17am
- Chris R
  
  BY:The Waitangi Tribunal has the power as a Court of Inquiry to summons anyone even pond life as exhibited here from time to time. Mr Luxon would not have scaled the heights in North America that he did he did if he bore the characteristics you negligently ascribe to him.
  
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  April 20, 2024 10:25am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Dear me 🙁
    
    There is no such thing as a “Court of Inquiry”.
    
    The Waitangi Tribunal is a standing Commission of Inquiry.
    
    It is not a Court. This is self evident because its recommendations can be challenged in the courts, and its own website states that it is not a court!
    
    Its own website also states that it has “limited power to summons”. The exercise of that power can also be challenged in the courts, which may well happen in this case.
    
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/crown-lawyers-expected-to-ask-high-court-to-overturn-waitangi-tribunal-summons-of-childrens-minister/V6E3TQ6M7NGG5GRQ2WGZ6BL4SE/
    
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    April 20, 2024 10:52am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      The Maori hierarchy treat it as a Court. They think they are separate from the NZ Judiciary imo.
      
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      April 20, 2024 11:20am
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Creeping Marxism. Fake it until you make it (institutionalised).
      
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      April 20, 2024 3:45pm
  - Dave
    
    The Waitangi Tribunal has the power… to summons anyone even pond life…
    
    On the topic of summoning, in our decolonized society with its taniwhas and mauri, it’s time for a little Western cultural appreciation, courtesy of the Bard:
    
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them?
    Glendower: Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command the devil.
    Hotspur: And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil— by telling the truth. Tell truth and shame the devil.
    
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    April 20, 2024 2:12pm
    - julesnzuk
      
      De-colonised. The very (miss) spelling indicates that it’s imported American garbage.
      
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      April 20, 2024 9:05pm
- Nobby2
  
  I understood the waitangi tribunal was set up to investigate past alleged grievances against maori, then to make non binding suggestions / recommendations to the sitting Government to remedy the alleged past grievances. So what makes them think they can demand all sorts of actions from the Government on current or projected policies. It has become the ultimate trough for radical maori and their lawyers to stick their noses into and should be disbanded immediately.
  
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  April 20, 2024 11:44am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Go listen to what he actually said, and stop falling for rotten media sensationalism
  
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  April 20, 2024 12:39pm
  - Ra Henare
    
    Its always amusing that the KB commenters who poo poo MSM still believe everything they(MSM) say on “”the news””
    
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    April 20, 2024 1:41pm
- Wayne Mapp
  
  Benedict,
  
  As I am sure you know, the issue is the way Ministers are supposed to conduct themselves vis-a-vis Courts and Tribunals. They are supposed to respect Courts and Tribunals as different and independent arms of government. Both Act and NZF Ministers have breached this convention by the way they discussed them.
  
  Will this be an ongoing problem for the coalition; quite possibly.
  
  In my view, if such conventions are routinely breached, it will lead to a much more problematic relationship between the Executive and the Courts. Not a desirable thing for those who value constitutional stability.
  
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  April 20, 2024 1:54pm
  - kiwikidsnz
    
    …however a very desirable improvement for those who value democracy instead of cosy appeasement. The more so given NZ doesn’t have a formal written constitution.
    
    I’d suggest that many NZdrs over recent years have formed their own opinion of the many examples of the cowardly administration of the law so as to maximally benefit offenders instead of ensuring justice for victims & therefore hold much of the judiciary in justified contempt.
    
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    April 20, 2024 6:25pm
Yvette

Treaty?
• At present it seems we have governments that the nation in general accepts have the right to govern.
• Everyone who owns property or treasures (taonga) has the right to continue owning them until they want to sell those.
• And each person who is a New Zealand citizen over 18 years has one vote (two under MMP for the pedantic)

As far as I understand it, this is what David Seymour’s proposed bill will assert, as these rights have become a little out of focus, due mainly to the action and proposal’s of the last Labour Government.

If Maori people have another version of these points, they should really explain what they think other arrangements should be.

Otherwise the Maori King should explain what the ‘unity’ he is inciting, as a response to ACT’s proposed re-statement of New Zealand citizen rights and government role, is actually ‘unity’ for what reason?

And if there is a claim some tribes (iwi) did not ceed sovereignty in the original 1840 Maori version of the Treaty, they should explain what the consider they position to now be and why it has taken 184 years for them to decide their as yet undefined status.

‘Unity’ for what? And why?
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April 20, 2024 8:17am
- imalwaysright
  
  Seymour should have put forward a list of rights for all New Zealanders .
  
  Trying to express them as principles of a treaty, which served its purpose as soon as it was signed and is therefore now irrelevant, is a big mistake.
  
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  April 20, 2024 2:43pm
  - julesnzuk
    
    The reason he’s doing it is to end, once and for all, this endless revisionist treat principles crap that is constantly being made up to suit a far left agenda (and has nothing to do with the original ToW). His idea is right. If it’s not consolidated once and for all this revisionist nonsense will be endless and won’t stop until untold, irreversible damage to NZ is done.
    
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    April 20, 2024 9:09pm
Taieri

Why does the Waitangi Tribunal have the power to summon a Minister so that she can be attacked by the Tribunal?
———–

Because the Waitangi Tribunal can and does assume all the powers it wants. And the Government(s) (current and past) tolerate and encourage it. This is despite the Tribunal not being a court of law and its recommendations and findings not binding on the Government. The end result is the Tribunal being a power unto itself, beyond any control and any criticism, which nobody dares to challenge.
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April 20, 2024 8:24am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Your last sentence says why the Waitangi Tribunal should be disbanded.
  
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  April 20, 2024 11:24am
- 70andstilllearning
  
  “And the Government(s) (current and past) tolerate and encourage it.”
  The current government legally challenging the Tribunal summons doesn’t sound particularly like encouragement ….
  
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  April 20, 2024 12:26pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  They don’t have the right, and that has been established
  
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  April 20, 2024 12:40pm
Paulus

Why does not the Waitangi Tribunal be closed
– I do not remember voting for it !
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April 20, 2024 8:26am
- kowtow
  
  Part of the Deep State .
  
  And the Nats are deeply committed.
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:46am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Not according to zLuxon yesterday
    
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    April 20, 2024 12:42pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  If you listen to what all of what Luxon said yesterday, he suggested it will not be needed after all the payouts which only have a couple remaining are paid out
  
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  April 20, 2024 12:41pm
Pineapple Lumps

Carbon Question???

From a material perspective I understand that our planet is a closed system. There is no net change in the amount of carbon in this system, just changes in the form that it takes. For example, the process of fossil fuel extraction and then use, changes the carbon from complex organic chemicals to carbon dioxide gas. The carbon dioxide gas is then available for plants to consume and grow, through the process of photosynthesis. Overall, there is no gain or loss of carbon.

So at some point in the history of the world, the creation of fossil fuel deposits has clearly been the result of mass extinction events. At this time a massive amount of living matter – both plant and animal – has been buried under layers of earth. A process that has locked carbon in the bowels of the earth. However, prior to that event this carbon was supporting life on the planets surface.

So is it a catastrophe for this carbon to be released back into the surface/atmostphere? Logically the planet was able to cope with this carbon in the past. In fact this carbon should create an enriched environment for life on our planet – evidenced by the current greening of our planet. Something to celebrate not fear. What am I missing?
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April 20, 2024 8:28am
- Benedict Yu
  
  A couple of things.
  
  Fossil fuels were not formed in mass extinction events.
  
  Oil was formed in specific periods by plankton. See here for more.
  
  https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Oil_formation#:~:text=70%25%20of%20oil%20deposits%20existing,to%20252%20million%20years%20ago).
  
  Coal was even more remarkable. It was formed over about 50 million years, a remarkably short time frame in geological terms.
  
  https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1712062114
  
  As you point out, burning fossil fuels just release previous carbon. The problem is that they are releasing carbon accumulated over many millions of years in about 150 years, since the start of the industrial revolution.
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:26am
  - Burtland
    
    CO2 has risen 0.01% in 10,000yrs (0.03 to 0.04%)
    
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    April 20, 2024 10:25am
  - CJames
    
    Benedict – Probably the largest store of carbon in the earth is the carbonate rocks (limestone, chalk marble). That rock formation is how a lot of the CO2 dissolved in seawater as bicarbonate ions is removed as it precipitates.
    
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    April 20, 2024 10:39am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      Indeed…
      
      99.99% of Earth’s C is in the lithosphere…..(sedimentary rocks, hydrocarbons, marine sediments)
      
      and of that lot: a mere 0.0041% is fossil fuel (oil, gas, coal)
      
      https://www.coolgeography.co.uk/advanced/Stores_of_Carbon.php
      
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      April 20, 2024 1:04pm
  - Pineapple Lumps
    
    So the speed of release may create some unknown outcomes in the short term – but is that really “the problem”? My more optimistic view is the closed system we live in is very good at self-regulating and will equilibriate over time. This doesn’t suit those who fear monger that this will bring on the end of the world. The end of the world is more likely to occur from other man made events, such as those in Ukraine and Iran.
    
    I will beg to differ with you regarding your theory on how fossil fuels are created. If you look at the diagram on your plankton turning into oil link, large amounts of plankton need to die and become buried under sedimentary layers. The postulation that this occurs over large timescales is flawed. Dead organic material decomposes unless it is preserved at or close to the time of death ie within hours and days, not millions of years. Preserving a massive amount of dead living matter with sediment in a short timeframe creates preservation conditions. We see these conditions replicated here in NZ with swamp kauri. Some are recovered with green leaves – that quickly decay when bought back into the oxygen rich atmosphere. So a mass extinction event is consistent with the evidence around us, thus a more likely method to produce fossil fuels on the scale we see globally today than a gradual deposition of dead living material over millions of years.
    
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    April 20, 2024 10:50am
    - Burtland
      
      your assumption that the planet will “equilibriate over time” in a manner beneficial to humans is misplaced – this is the most likely source of our extinction
      
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      April 20, 2024 11:38am
      - Pineapple Lumps
        
        Humans are the biggest danger to humanity, not the planet.
        
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        April 20, 2024 1:29pm
      - jkt
        
        From a planetary perspective why is humans important.
        From a human perspective this planet is pretty special.
        
        Makes one understand why drinking water is considered important.
        
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        April 20, 2024 1:46pm
- artemisia
  
  Norway has developed a method to convert CO2 into rocks and drop them into the ocean. Iceland as well. New Zealand has a lot of ocean. Chat to Norway / Iceland about using some of that $NZ30 billion committed for Net Zero.
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:31am
  - bennerg
    
    But all that is predicated on the theory that CO2 is causing irreversible damage to the planet.
    
    The theory, supported by “computer modelling” appears to lack any long term scientific rigour.
    
    So why are we worrying?
    
    Where are the cross checks and balancing arguments to ensure that proposed “solutions” are in fact fit for purpose? And where the hell has the scientific method gone?
    
    Ah, the reason was given in the movie “All the Presidents Men”, “follow the money”. Cui bono?
    
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    April 20, 2024 10:08am
    - Burtland
      
      where the hell has the scientific method gone?
      
      – it got cancelled by the UN, neomarxism has no place for scientific method
      
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      April 20, 2024 10:35am
  - Stellaboxer
    
    Not going to happen artemisia. Climate change is too valuable to too many interests to have a genuine solution
    
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    April 20, 2024 10:24am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    The sea level is rising fast enough without dumping rocks into it.//
    
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    April 20, 2024 11:32am
    - jkt
      
      We can just up killing whales to match.
      
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      April 20, 2024 1:59pm
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    They’re not converting CO2 into rocks… they are pumping it under an impermeable layer of shale.
    
    https://group.vattenfall.com/press-and-media/newsroom/2024/norways-sleipner-where-co2-has-been-buried-in-the-rock-since-1996#
    
    Not going to be an economic method for NZ as our oil/gas industry looks to be a dead duck.
    
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    April 20, 2024 1:12pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  I said this the other day. Carbon has always been on this planet in one form or another.
  It did not come from somewhere else. Burning coal is burning stored energy. But coal was not always coal.
  
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  April 20, 2024 11:29am
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/350251907/warriors-fall-flat-shock-30-12-loss-dragons
Only a “shock loss” if you are a Warriors supporter ! No doubt the Dragons team and fans expected to win.
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April 20, 2024 8:30am
- Pineapple Lumps
  
  Based on prior results/relative positions on the points table the Warriors went into the game as favourites. Looked a bit off their stride – perhaps they had a bit less in the tank after playing extra time the previous week? Dragons came out fired up to play and tackled ferociously. Warriors kept themselves out of the game with penalties. Dragons deserved the win.
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:41am
Southern Raider

So we should feel good because emissions are down year on year.

This was partially driven my Marsden Point being shut down.

Amazing how the emissions cost of refining fuel overseas and then transporting it here doesn’t get counted.
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April 20, 2024 8:31am
- bjools
  
  and as for, “carbon offsets”
  How come the rules for “counting” the offset of CO2, basically only include large commercial forests.
  Not
  Gorse and scrub
  Small groups of trees (maybe planted by local councils)
  Farm shelter belts
  Your garden
  etc etc
  Count these (after all they exist and do soak up CO2) and we are already at “NET” Zero and beyond.
  Sell these “Carbon credits” and we would have no debt. over night.
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:59am
  - Stellaboxer
    
    Oh for goodness sake bjools stop making sense! Nobody wants a solution, the net zero is simply a way to oust one set of global billionaires and replace them with another. Keep up mate.
    
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    April 20, 2024 10:28am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Same as importing coal when we have our own coal. Just idiots fucking with numbers.
  
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  April 20, 2024 11:34am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    It is not the same. Burning Indonesian coal is counted against New Zealand emissions. The company that owns Huntly is free to source its coal from wherever it wants. Nobody else’s business.
    
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    April 20, 2024 11:37am
    - Pineapple Lumps
      
      You are missing a vital point Ben – the company that owns Huntly is free to use any coal available – as long as it aligns with what the Country Captain allows.
      
      When the Capitan shuts down the oil and gas industry this forces other consumers out of locally supplied energy sources (cleaner too eg Gas) into bigger quantities of electricity produced from dirty Indonesian coal. Initiatives like Healthy Homes (Heat Pump installation) and EV rebates are also driving greater demand for coal fired electricity.
      
      The market is not as free as you are suggesting.
      
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      April 20, 2024 11:49am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      I thought it had something about bypassing carbon credits. I don’t really know much about this emissions thing.
      
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      April 20, 2024 12:16pm
Matt Long

Former Wikipedia CEO and now NPR CEO being explicit that Wikipedia is no longer interested in free speech but must push the right narrative.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/wikipedia-co-founder-blasts-successor-katherine-maher-says-npr-let-go-right-away
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April 20, 2024 8:31am
- jkt
  
  And they expect us to pay for the opportunity to read the opinions of people unknown to us creating a narrative of their choice.
  
  Great business model!
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:05am
  - Che Guava
    
    “And they expect us to pay for the opportunity to read the opinions of people unknown to us creating a narrative of their choice.”
    
    That’s just a description of how the mass media works and has always worked. It’s always amusing when people yearn for a return to a non-existent past when “the media was objective and unbiased.” When exactly was this the case?
    
    Why would any media do or say anything “objective” when being objective may not serve their interests, interests that they have invested a lot of money in protecting and promoting?
    
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    April 20, 2024 10:30am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Exactly, the Washington Post was intentionally pro Hitler in the years preceding the war because it was in the interests of the papers owners.
      Now they are anti Trump for similar reasons .
      
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      April 20, 2024 11:02am
      - jkt
        
        At least one knows what The Washington Post represents.
        Wikipedia on the other hand….
        
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        April 20, 2024 2:07pm
    - jkt
      
      Wikipedia is more like Encyclopaedia than mass media.
      
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      April 20, 2024 2:09pm
greybeard

Tova is obsessed with Chris Luxon: virtually every day she posts another instalment of her vitriol and venom.
I reckon she is being paid under the table by Labour &/or the Greens to do this, as well as being on the Stuff payroll. There can be no other explanation.
Luxon must be really worrying them.
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April 20, 2024 8:34am
- hmmokrightitis
  
  If anything serves as a daily reminder why the MSM is dying in front of our eyes, its Tova’s daily rant.
  
  Did we see it when labour were tanking the economy, delivering nothing except massive increases in spending? No.
  
  And the media wonder why people aren’t listening. Because you Tova, you.
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:58am
- jkt
  
  And stuff struggles to understand why consumers of their products are leaving.
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:07am
  - Burtland
    
    the Irish woman is quite canny, bought it for $1 and now being paid to do 3’s propaganda
    
    the big question is what investor has arrived at stuff
    
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    April 20, 2024 11:03am
  - Paulus
    
    As more importantly are Stuff’s advertisers pulling out, as they are not getting what they pay for.
    
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    April 20, 2024 1:35pm
- pdm
  
  GB – maybe a top 10 list placing in 2026 is on offer.
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:59am
  - bjools
    
    If all being equal…..on the Labour list in 2026….she still wouldn’t become an MP.
    
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    April 20, 2024 10:03am
Benedict Yu

I find it odd that a decision by a newsreader to leave a job results in an outpouring of emotion and is breathlessly reported across multiple news outlets.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350251290/newhub-co-anchor-mike-mcroberts-loved-job-grateful

There is no awareness that he was part of the problem that caused the downfall of the news service. I emphasise that I am not making a personal attack. Simply that he was instrumental in delivering a news service that became, let’s face it, insufferable. ☹️
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April 20, 2024 8:35am
- Inandout
  
  BY, “I have loved telling the news each night for the last 20 years”
  I may amend that McRoberts statement to “I have loved telling my version of the news each night for the last 20 years”.
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:43am
- Jethrod
  
  And we only have 11 weeks of it to go!!!!
  
  Massive eye roll!!
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:44am
- Flossie
  
  As far as I’m concerned the sooner he goes the better. Overblown sense of his own importance. All those recent promos of him and the female co-presenter were nauseating.
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:45am
- rouppe
  
  I agree.
  
  I was flicking through the local rag the other day, there was a headline that caught my eye, within the first paragraph it was “I was talking with a wahine about…” and immediately it was in the bin.
  
  When I see that it’s one of two things: woke, or there’s a bias. Either way they’ve lost my attention
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:51am
  - Paulus
    
    I see that rather than pulling back the St John Ambulance are increasing their Maori overall robe in their advertising, hoping more Taxpayers money and not getting as much private funds any more.
    I have in the past financially supported St John – wonderful people, but no more until they get their mojo back.
    
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    April 20, 2024 1:39pm
- Pineapple Lumps
  
  Do you really find it odd that people who have worked closely together for 8 years, would be a little emotional at the abrupt ending of their entire workplace and retirement of a colleague? And given the public nature of their roles that some of this emotion would spill over into the public domain?
  
  I agree their service was insufferable and contributed to their demise and generally they seem to lack any awareness of their contribution to their situation!
  
  It is possible to have both empathy and disgust for them at the same time.
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:52am
  - Don Beckett
    
    Yeah, but 11 weeks out from when it’s gonna happen ?
    Okay in the last week – but this is just insufferable self promotion & narcissism.
    
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    April 20, 2024 10:48am
  - lifesgood
    
    No, it’s not possible. They are the architects of their own demise.
    
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    April 20, 2024 12:36pm
- Swifty
  
  He was the one that lied about Posie Parker and her supposed throwing of Nazi signs – and while pixelating the footage so that viewers couldn’t see for themselves, we just had to take his word for it.
  
  Mike McRoberts, take your place in NZ journalism’s hall of shame.
  
  You fucking liar.
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:58am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    The ABC in Australia just reached an out of court settlement with Kellie Jay Keen about the Nazi link. She has a couple of other defamation suits in progress.
    
    This is a woman who was a decades long member of the Labour Party in the UK and still very much identifies with the left. Some Nazi 😕
    
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    April 20, 2024 9:31am
    - Swifty
      
      Yep, a real she-wolf of the SS.
      
      //
      
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      April 20, 2024 9:45am
    - NZer In Exile
      
      In other words the Aus taxpayer was sent the bill for the ABCs’ out of control far-left zealots’ court settlements.
      
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      April 20, 2024 3:56pm
- kowtow
  
  ‘a news service that became, let’s face it, insufferable’
  
  When a face becomes the news there can be no doubt that the news is not news . It’s activism.
  
  ‘Oriini Kaipara, who made history in 2019 as the first woman with a moko kauae to read a major news bulletin, has moved to Three with a presenting role on Newshub Live at 4.30pm.’
  $1uffed.
  
  In many ways they insist on continuing to confirm all the things Karl du Fresne said about them in his latest missive.
  
  Self absorbed , out of touch…….
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:01am
- Clyde
  
  But he is also as woke as can be. All he ever was in his career was an autocue reader with a few journalism spots inbetween. The great unwashed cannot see the shallowness of these fronting people – remember Judy Bailey was often referred to as the “mother of the nation”. FFS, the Women’s Weakly are still doing stories on her.
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:03am
  - lifesgood
    
    At least she admits to botox. We nearly feel off our seats laughing when she appeared on TV with one eyebrow right up in her hairline. What a poser!
    
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    April 20, 2024 12:37pm
  - JimBobJoe
    
    No.. To be fair to him he did report in the field as well as anchor the nightly news.
    
    McRoberts did reportage from war fronts a number of times. Afghanistan, Iraq, Gaza etc
    
    Dont care he is out of a job… But to say his career was reading an autocue is factually incorrect
    
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    April 20, 2024 12:40pm
  - julesnzuk
    
    The stuff about Judy Bailey was silly but it’s got much worse since then – at least she didn’t promote any kind of extreme political orthodoxy, she just read the news.
    
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    April 20, 2024 9:34pm
- imalwaysright
  
  In any other country our media types would be lucky to get a job cleaning the toilets.
  
  The so called outpouring of emotion is just another of their fake news stories.
  
  Nobody cares about their self inflicted entitled trauma.
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:06am
- jkt
  
  It is all about entitlement.
  Many of these journalists hurt their own careers for the “greater” cause. Not in the pursuit of good balanced journalistic excellence.
  
  Selfless acts of self sacrifice? Let’s celebrate their bravery …….
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:13am
- kowtow
  
  Talking of media , another excellent piece from Graham Adams .In case anyone missed it.From the Platform.
  
  https://theplatform.kiwi/opinions/the-usd55m-media-fund-continues-to-stir-controversy
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:29am
- mogg
  
  According to RNZ, 70% of NZ do not trust MSM and ‘actively avoid the news’.
  They took govt money and reported what the govt wanted them to say. People do not want news they cannot trust. They are the architects the of their own downfall. They know all this, and that is what makes them so angry. They have managed to shoot themselves in the foot and the head at the same time. Hence the spiteful outpourings.
  
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  April 20, 2024 10:39am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Stuff has probably said it’s him or Hayes, and he is older and possibly thought I will fix this, there will not be twin readers, I would suggest there will not be a sports reader either
  
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  April 20, 2024 12:46pm
  - GJM
    
    Wouldn’t have anything to with insufficient DIE points, him being a white male and all?
    
    4 2
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    April 20, 2024 2:13pm
    - Flossie
      
      But he’s not is he? (A white male)
      I thought he had recently been immersing himself in his Maori roots.
      
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      April 20, 2024 4:31pm
    - Ghost
      
      Ummm, his father is Māori, so he’s not a white male
      
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      April 20, 2024 4:32pm
Yvette

Treaty principles?
While his speech to more than 10,000 people at Tūrangawaewae Marae in Ngāruawāhia was largely optimistic, Kiingi Tūheitia criticised the Government’s Treaty Principles Bill, which aimed to redefine the Treaty principles, and called for Te Tiriti o Waitangi to be written into legislation so politicians “can’t change nothing”.
He didn’t make specific references to any proposed legislation but did indicate his strong condemnation for the Treaty Principles Bill, created by Act and agreed to in its coalition with National. “There’s no principles, the Treaty is written. That’s it.”
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/maori-king-calls-for-hope-over-protest-while-dismissing-govt-treaty-bill/M2EXZG3JLNHTPFKEEUFK7Z5QXY/

And from ACT’s “Treaty” website –
The intention of the Treaty Principles Bill is to establish in law that the principles of the Treaty are what the three articles of the Treaty actually say: that the New Zealand Government has the right to govern; that the authority and ownership of land and property of all New Zealanders is protected; and that all New Zealanders are equal under the law.
The actual text of the Treaty itself is a powerful guide for New Zealand’s future. Far from a divisive document that affords unique privileges to one group, the Treaty is a taonga for all New Zealanders, establishing that all New Zealanders have above all else the same rights and privileges as each other and that the Government has a duty to protect those rights.
https://www.treaty.nz

On the face of it, what is the difference between the stance of the Maori King, Kiingi Tūheitia, and that of ACT?
And, has there ever been such a vast number of people emotively looking at an issue without honestly seeking sources available to make an informed decision?

David Seymour and Kiingi Tūheitia were both at Waitangi.
Both spoke
But not to each other
Kiingi Tūheitia had even called te Hui o te Motu – the nationwide gathering for discussion – prior to Waitanagi and the annual Ratana gathering.
So at Waitangi was such an ignoring of the much lauded process to ‘korero’ in fact a wilfully lost opportunity because other agenda exist?

So, Kiingi Tūheitia’s call for ‘unity’ is a call for unity to oppose or endorse what?
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April 20, 2024 8:38am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  In my less than humble opinion….
  
  Kiingi Tūheitia’s call for unity – Kotahitanga – is for all Maori to insist on the TofW te Reo version ONLY.
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8H-zpoMT0U
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:59am
  - Yvette
    
    As far as I can gauge the quotes in Maori, which are on the ACT Treaty website –
    https://www.treaty.nz/?utm_campaign=information_campaign
    – are from the 1840 Maori version
    
    The Maori King and his followers should not have a problem with restating them
    
    But at Waitangi there was no real talk of that it seemed
    So, instead leaving the earlier assertion that ACT wants to rewrite rather than reassert the Maori Treaty, would perhaps indicate another agenda is in play?
    
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    April 20, 2024 1:19pm
- lifesgood
  
  And the country is expected to take notice of a barely literate truck driver? Give me a break!
  
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  April 20, 2024 12:39pm
lastmanstanding

Western Governments including our own are now reaping the rewards of allowing too many immigrants and too many unskilled immigrants into their countries without having the infrastructure in place to cope. This is disadvantaging citizens who were born in the country and earlier immigrants who have contributed to the society.
These Governments have betrayed their hard working tax paying citizens using a Ponzi scheme to cover their ineptitude to develop sound policies to grow their economies internally.
Alas in our case the two main political parties are guilty so citizens have little option at the ballot box. I fear that unless the situation is brought under control we may see citizens taking their own actions. That would not be good.
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April 20, 2024 8:41am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  I see it as Labour bringing in future voters. They are well known for vote buying.
  Skill had nothing to do with it.
  
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  April 20, 2024 8:50am
  - Pineapple Lumps
    
    That may well have been the intent but the Filipino and Indian immigrants I meet aren’t too keen on the lazy left. So another example of Labour failing in delivery!
    
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    April 20, 2024 9:01am
    - kowtow
      
      At the ballot box they’ll vote for whichever party promises to transfer the most to their bank accounts in subsisdies , no matter what they say to you in person.
      
      That’ll be Labour / Green.
      
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      April 20, 2024 9:42am
      - Paulus
        
        They have to be qualified here to vote remember.
        In Aussie it can take 10 years for Citizenship, and that is required to join the Public Service, with certain exceptions such as Police and Nurses etc.
        
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        April 20, 2024 1:44pm
      - MCōs
        
        They won’t be voting at all if they’re not either citizens or permanent residents or if they’re not interested in local politics
        
        1 0
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        April 20, 2024 4:14pm
  - Burtland
    
    They strangled worker supply during covid so the Unions could up the pay rates, then brought in workers to fill the gaps in their Unionised rolls. The increased numbers restored their voter base and lamely attempted to prop the economy up.
    
    The chief perpetrator returned to his union role.
    
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    April 20, 2024 11:21am
    - MCōs
      
      Where did you read that?
      
      1 0
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      April 20, 2024 4:16pm
- MCōs
  
  Do you think the current immigrants aren’t hard working tax payers too?
  All the ones I’ve ever met, whether they be Thai restaurant workers, or nurses or whoever work long hours to get ahead and often because they’re supporting families back home.
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:34am
  - kowtow
    
    Hard working , perhaps . Remittances , hmmmm. Then the wages of all that labour ( much of it paid out of taxes) are propping up foreign economies and not being spent here .
    
    Oh well on the bright side I suppose that’s disinflationary
    
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    April 20, 2024 9:39am
    - MCōs
      
      I would suggest it’s nothing compared with profits from the banks finding its way to Oz, for example
      
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      April 20, 2024 4:20pm
  - Che Guava
    
    “Do you think the current immigrants aren’t hard working tax payers too?”
    
    Even if true, who cares? So what? Are you saying that as long as they pay tax, anyone from anywhere can come here if they can benefit from doing so? It probably does benefit new immigrants to come here – again, so what? The bigger question is is immigrants coming here good for us?
    
    Despite this being an idea many on here have supported in recent years, a country is not a business, so the principles which underpin it should not be profit and loss and balance sheets – a country is a home and extended family of people.
    
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    April 20, 2024 10:40am
    - I remember when
      
      Immigrants coming here is ‘profit and loss’.
      Once they are residents the country is home.
      Refugees are a different matter.
      
      4 3
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      April 20, 2024 11:55am
      - Che Guava
        
        “Home” isn’t just where you happen to be living and your legal status, it’s much deeper than that.
        
        The logic of the capitalist system is endless debt creation, endless consumption, and endless growth. Naturally, endless anything is a contradiction in a finite world, so it cannot go on by definition. It must end at some point, but this cannot be acknowledged because then the people running the show place themselves in danger of removal and replacement. We are on the Titanic and we’ve already hit the iceberg, but the ship’s crew are afraid of telling all the passengers because then the crew become irrelevant.
        
        It is a rule of all civilisations that they are born, they grow, the mature, and then they collapse. There are no exceptions to this general pattern. I’d say that we are at least 100 years or more into the inevitable collapse, but most of us don’t realise this because we don’t know any different to the way things are and lack the broader perspective and insight to see it.
        
        The mass immigration policies are a warning sign of where we’re at. Without mass immigration, asset prices would collapse, and because asset prices are so closely associated with security for bank lending, the economy would collapse with it.
        
        It’s got nothing to do with being nice to brown people or taking the mora stance of being “anti-racist” – without indefinite and limitless population growth, that’s the end of the economy and the political paradigm as we know it. That’s why all the “mainstream” parties all support the policy, and why they’ll studiously avoid ever debating it. It’s an accepted axiom now that “mass immigration just is.”
        
        Look speculatively 50 or 100 years into the future: what is New Zealand (along with the rest of the West) going to look like? If it hasn’t already collapsed by then, on current settings, we could, mostly due to baked-in mass immigration policies, be a nation of perhaps 15, 20 or 25 million people of all races and creeds, perhaps a White population of only about 20% or even less, extremely fractured and social incohesive, with everything on the verge of an even more catastrophic collapse.
        
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        April 20, 2024 2:14pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        I see what you are saying, Che, but your conclusion is IMO rather extreme.
        
        4 2
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        April 20, 2024 3:31pm
  - Taieri
    
    Thai restaurant workers, or nurses or whoever work long hours to get ahead and often because they’re supporting families back home
    —————–
    
    And allowing a couple of hundred of thousand Kiwi “jobseekers” to “jobseek” at their (and our) expense.
    
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    April 20, 2024 12:46pm
    - MCōs
      
      Our Thai friends who own a Thai restaurant in the Hutt told me that to get a work permit for a chef they need to have trained as a chef back in the old country.
      They can’t just grab someone from WINZ to do the work. It’s a skilled occupation.
      There’s a shortage of nurses in NZ, which is why they are recruiting offshore. When I was in hospital there were a lot from the Philippines and they were still short staffed.
      
      4 1
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      April 20, 2024 4:11pm
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        Easiest way to get the extended family into NZ, MCoS. Just advertise for a job that can’t be filled locally – say, a chef with a particular style of cooking that’s only found up the Yanstsu, then bring in the cuzzie with the fake certificates & – job done.
        
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        April 20, 2024 9:55pm
kevn

Meanwhile in the UK…
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/thought-police-home-visit-uk-man-who-expressed-anger-online-about-sydney-bishop-being
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April 20, 2024 9:11am
- kowtow
  
  The UK has gone bonkers .
  
  ‘After the defiant man attempts to walk across the road in the Aldwych area, the officer blocks him and says: ‘I don’t want anybody antagonising anybody… and at the moment sir, you are quite openly Jewish. This is a pro-Palestinian march.
  
  ‘I am not accusing you of anything but I am worried about the reaction to your presence.”
  
  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13325691/Shocking-moment-police-officer-threatens-ARREST-Jewish-man-breaching-peace-stopped-crossing-road-pro-Palestine-march-London.html#comments
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:25am
- Dave
  
  No need to worry, kevn; they’re from the government and they’re there to help. I expect, after they spoke to him, off they went to the local imam to help him and his friends.
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:27am
  - kowtow
    
    Amazing though innit , UK Plod are now notorious for not being able to turn up to real crime such as burglary .
    
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    April 20, 2024 9:36am
    - Keith White
      
      NZers have that problem in NZ too.
      
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      April 20, 2024 1:56pm
- jkt
  
  The man must be a seriously dangerous Christian bigot.
  The police is just doing god’s job…. This is super weird.
  
  I can see why we need more police on our streets, there are just so many hours in a day and so much crime to manage. Let’s hope government makes speech a crime and make it compulsory for the police to investigate every complaint as a priority. Give our police guns!!💪 These are dangerous dangerous.
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:30am
  - I remember when
    
    Yesterday’s Manawatu Standard covered items on Gang shootings in earlier incidents in Highbury/Takaro, Palmerston North, about 200 metres from each other.
    Both occurred during the day.
    One was a murder, the other a ‘shoot out.’
    
    The Gangs are criminal organisations!
    
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    April 20, 2024 11:48am
    - kowtow
      
      Isolated incidents , no doubt.
      
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      April 20, 2024 1:49pm
- Ghost
  
  Listening to the video this is because his priest contacted the police. He says “what has the priest told you”. So what has he done that has concerned his priest enough to contact police.
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:44am
Maggie Pie

They lost me at…… ‘Swarbrick says’

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/04/19/swarbrick-says-climate-minister-missing-in-action-on-fast-track-bill/

Like who gives a flying fox what she says?

SHEESH!!
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April 20, 2024 10:14am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  He’s not Missing in Action…
  
  He’s giving away $41 Million to the Asian Development Bank
  
  https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2404/S00124/41m-to-support-clean-energy-in-south-east-asia.htm
  
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  April 20, 2024 10:25am
  - Graeme Hall
    
    Enough to make a working taxpayer weep. Here we are in an economic mire & Luxon struts about Asia giving away money to countries much better off than us. Charity begins at home Chris.
    
    21 1
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    April 20, 2024 12:50pm
    - Benedict Yu
      
      Man that is a drop in the bucket 😅
      
      New Zealand has committed $1.2 billion in climate finance to developing countries just for the current three year planning period.
      https://www.mfat.govt.nz/en/aid-and-development/climate-change-support/what-is-climate-finance/
      
      The bill by 2030 will be north of 10 billion, probably 20 billion.
      Most folk have no idea this is happening.
      
      I know it might seem odd, but the bill for this government is going to be larger than the last government. Because farmers are exempt. If the farmers don’t pay, the Crown pays. 😳
      
      So you ain’t seen nothing yet ☹️
      
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      April 20, 2024 1:14pm
- Che Guava
  
  “Like who gives a flying fox what she says?”
  
  Why are you posting a link to what she says, then?
  
  3 21
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  April 20, 2024 10:41am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Honestly Che….. wakey wakey, hand off snakey 😀
    
    26 4
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    April 20, 2024 10:49am
Maggie Pie

A bestie from The Big Apple tweets….

“You’re fired!”

https://twitter.com/emilyngo/status/1781377465547682191
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April 20, 2024 10:34am
- Inandout
  
  Maggie, on the subject of human burning I believe abortion remains in some US clinics are disposed of in hospital furnaces. We can only presume the remains of late term abortions aren’t alive when incinerated. Just a thought.
  
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  April 20, 2024 1:57pm
Sir Cullen's Sidekick

Toxic Tova single handedly bringing down Luxon with thousand cuts.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350251790/tova-obrien-luxons-diplomacy-challenges-both-home-and-overseas
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April 20, 2024 10:41am
- I remember when
  
  It would be interesting to be able to measure the relative benefits of Jacinda’s “global publicity” against Luxon’s more issue specific diplomacy.
  
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  April 20, 2024 11:39am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Impossible to measure. I would struggle to name more than two or three NZ PMs who had any kind to significant global impact.
    
    4 12
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    April 20, 2024 12:20pm
    - MCōs
      
      Any Thai I ever met over there would have had as much chance of naming any of our prime ministers as Kiwis would of naming any of theirs
      For that matter it’s doubtful if one on a hundred Kiwis can name the leaders of any of the Asian, South American, African, Middle Eastern countries
      
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      April 20, 2024 12:51pm
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        Hubby watching TV news a couple of nights ago and saw item of Luxon meeting President of Phillipines…
        
        Hubby’s comment:…. “Marcos, is he still President?…I thought he’d died”
        
        (I’m beginning to wonder if hubby is a zombie corpse).
        
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        April 20, 2024 1:29pm
    - Cassandra
      
      mike: the only one would be Peter Fraser. None of the others would register globally. Ardern briefly although God know why. Certainly didn’t last long, five minutes or so.
      
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      April 20, 2024 7:17pm
  - Paulus
    
    I understand Jacinda is currently in Cambridge University doing something with a hard left Woman’s Course.
    
    8 1
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    April 20, 2024 1:47pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  And she is losing every day
  
  6 3
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  April 20, 2024 12:49pm
  - MCōs
    
    If the aim is to get people to read her pieces in Stuff I’d say she’s doing rather well judging by the mentions she gets on this forum
    For that matter Jacinda Ardern, who has been practically invisible for the last year, seems to have her every movement reported back by someone to shock us all!
    
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    April 20, 2024 4:38pm
Notsofast

This video is worth a glance for those fascinated by the Hollywood proclivity for transing their children.
Rand Paul vs Richard/Rachel Levine.

https://youtu.be/NjJfC2HaaFg?si=W-_J4yi3BeK0EyrO

Oh wait, maybe a few are fascinated by New Zealand Parliament and their proclivity to encourage transing of children.
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April 20, 2024 11:13am
mikenmildagain

Poppy Day yesterday.
How many gave in person vs donated online vs forgot or didn’t bother?
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April 20, 2024 11:22am
- Nobby2
  
  Don’t worry, you still have until next Wednesday to purchase a poppy with a donation from an RSA volunteer manned stand in all manner of public and commercial places throughout NZ. Your donation is truly appreciated by the RSA and proceeds from the poppy collection go towards the welfare of all those Service men and woman who need it.
  
  16 1
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  April 20, 2024 1:13pm
- Keith White
  
  Strutting around boasting about what donations one gives and how much is simply purchasing a virtue-signal and waving it.
  
  6 6
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  April 20, 2024 1:58pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Don’t wear a poppy then, lest people mistake it for selfish signaling of your virtue.
    
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    April 20, 2024 3:13pm
- julesnzuk
  
  Why even ask that question?
  
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  April 20, 2024 9:42pm
I remember when

Te Tiriti o Waitangi: Introduction.
Presented by Project Waitangi.
“This workshop will give participants a broad overview of the history of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, the contents of Te Tiriti o Waitangi/The Treaty of Waitangi, and its relevance to Aotearoa New Zealand society today.”
“Through educational workshops, study groups, resource material, public seminars and submissions, we assist Pakeha and other Tauiwi as tangata Tiriti (people of the Treaty) to honour our Treaty responsibilities.”
What is Project Waitangi?
Their poster shows, in red, the 64 million acres of land in Maori ownership in 1840,and, in green, the 3 million remaining in 1983.
The poster was produced by Project Waitangi, an organisation set up mainly by and for Pakeha to debate and educate on issues of racism and equality in New Zealand.

I wonder how they treat the land owned by the, lets say, 800,000 people, who claim to be Maori.
How much non-Maori land do they collectively own?
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April 20, 2024 11:31am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Would you like me to suggest a methodology you could apply to answer your question?
  
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  April 20, 2024 12:18pm
- artemisia
  
  Does (did) Project Waitangi include a definition of ownership? Including the vast number of Maori Land Court decisions since the 1860s, many made wrt land in multiple ownership, following formal meetings of owners.
  
  12 1
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  April 20, 2024 12:33pm
  - Paulus
    
    When in multiple ownership they cannot be called to pay rates on land etc for example, as no one person can be deemed to be liable.
    Councils write off unpaid Maori rates each year.
    Great con !
    
    10 1
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    April 20, 2024 1:50pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Current [New Plymouth] council rules say rates can be cancelled on Māori freehold land that is unoccupied, multiple-owned and produces no income.
      But the Government has changed the Local Government Act, making such unused land non-rateable in the first place, and requiring councils to overhaul their rating of Māori land.
      
      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/ldr/469336/more-maori-land-to-be-free-from-rates
      
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      April 20, 2024 2:25pm
- julesnzuk
  
  What’s a “pakeha”? I know I’m not one.
  
  2 1
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  April 20, 2024 9:45pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Trump trial interrupted by crazy protest.

Disturbing video.

https://www.thepoliticalglobe.com/fiery-chaos-conservative-perspective-on-trump-trial-interrupted-by-mans-dangerous-protest-04-19-2024/?
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April 20, 2024 11:56am
- kowtow
  
  He’s got the flame , sorry , fame he’s clearly been craving .
  Too bad he won’t be able to appreciate it.
  
  There’s definitely a political flavour to it though .
  
  Nutty Smoked Italiano.
  
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  April 20, 2024 12:08pm
Maggie Pie

Posted earlier about the tortured soul who set himself alight outside the Manhatten Kangaroo Courtroom where Trumpy’s ‘hush-money’ trial is underway 🙁

More of the sad details released in ‘The Daily Mail….

https://mol.im/a/13329109
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April 20, 2024 11:57am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Yep, same one.
  What did he achieve?
  
  5 2
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  April 20, 2024 12:19pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Well exactly. See where there are lots of people asking…. “why do democrats keep setting themselves on fire?”
    
    6 3
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    April 20, 2024 12:45pm
  - peterwn
    
    He achieved causing misery to those who unfortunately had to deal with the situation – the police, paramedics doctors and nurses. And the ambo service and hospital will probably have to write off the costs, presumably he won’t pay the bills.
    
    6 1
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    April 20, 2024 1:24pm
    - Maggie Pie
      
      M.A.G.A.
      
      Make Mental Asylums Great Again
      
      5 6
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      April 20, 2024 1:38pm
    - Paul
      
      Who pays then, when these sercices are on standby ?
      Those costs are written in, not written off.
      And surely their job description is ‘be heroic in misery’ ? Unless some of them enjoy it, which is actually quite likely. After all, there are other less gruesome occupations that fit the same skillset.
      
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      April 20, 2024 4:03pm
      - peterwn
        
        You are completely wrong, mate. Hospital services and ambulances work on a ‘pay’ model in NSW and the organisations who provide such emergency services provide sufficient resources to meet anticipated demand. The self-arsonist effectively denied or delayed services to the ill or accident victims. That is selfish in its own right.
        And it is quite wrong to say that the emergency people are ‘hardened’ to deal with such situations. They would be to some extent but it would get at them especially when the harm is self inflicted. Also on this basis the act of the self-arsonist was plain selfish.
        
        1 0
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        April 20, 2024 7:24pm
  - kowtow
    
    Carbon emissions .
    
    4 3
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    April 20, 2024 1:53pm
Tasman devil

So the Ministry of Education school lunch pro-
gramme employs 8 nutritionists and 6 advisors!

One part time nutritionist would surely be enough.

Similarly the Ministry of Health employs 196 in communications!

Surely a couple of pamphlet authors would suffice?

Mark my words Otago University will go bankrupt under Grant Robertson whose economic illiteracy has caused the above bullshit examples.
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April 20, 2024 12:43pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  It is insane. I could compile a variety of healthy school lunch menus in a day. All kids love bbq 🐽 pork buns 🇹🇼 so there is one day sorted.
  
  16 2
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  April 20, 2024 1:19pm
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Thousands of us survived on a couple of vegemite/marmite sandwiches for lunch for years.
    
    26 2
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    April 20, 2024 1:34pm
    - Maggie Pie
      
      My fave were Honey & Rainbow Sprinkles.
      
      Haven’t seen them for ages. Altho may be available at a K’Rd coffee shop?
      
      11 3
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      April 20, 2024 1:59pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        ‘Rainbow Sprinkles’. Too much diversity.
        
        9 5
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        April 20, 2024 2:15pm
      - kevn
        
        Maggie… Special and daily was peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.
        
        8 0
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        April 20, 2024 2:25pm
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        Ever the Party girl…..
        
        https://www.thespruceeats.com/fairy-bread-4771689
        
        5 0
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        April 20, 2024 4:12pm
      - Maggie Pie
        
        That’s it Maggz!
        I hated the crusts (still do)
        Mum used to cut mine into circles with dads beer glass.
        
        5 0
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        April 20, 2024 4:51pm
      - MCōs
        
        Back in our day hundreds and thousands sandwiches were the highlight of any kid’s birthday party
        Rainbow anything has disturbing connotations among the easily offended these days
        
        6 4
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        April 20, 2024 4:54pm
    - Benedict Yu
      
      Hell I tried vegemite once. Never again. 🙁
      
      4 0
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      April 20, 2024 5:55pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Marmite and lettuce sandwich yum.
      
      0 0
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      April 21, 2024 8:03am
- kowtow
  
  It’ll go bankrupt on his salary alone .
  
  600 k .
  
  Faaaaaark.
  
  12 1
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  April 20, 2024 1:54pm
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS7yhwFAwIM
Net-Zero-Bot | Pauline Hanson’s Please Explain.
Anthony Albanese, Adam Bandt and Chris Bowen are on a net-zero mission to send Australia broke and they don’t care how much taxpayer money they need to burn to make it happen.
8 2
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April 20, 2024 12:47pm
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=darMLMk8ZV4
Karen Chhour on Improving Oranga Tamariki Services for At-Risk Children.
Karen has a few ideas on improving Orange Tamarillo. It can’t get any worse.
11 3
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April 20, 2024 12:47pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  I thought it was changing back to an English language name?
  
  17 1
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  April 20, 2024 1:19pm
  - Paulus
    
    Nah = most are not as they can get away with not doing so.
    
    12 0
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    April 20, 2024 1:52pm
Ghost

Injuries and “material losses” have been reported after a large explosion at a military base in Iraq.

The cause of the blast – at the Kalsu facility in the city of Babylon – is currently unconfirmed

Article
7 1
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April 20, 2024 1:47pm
Maggie Pie

Coming to a town near you 🙁

I recall this case very very well.
We had actually visited Haruru Falls earlier in the same year.

If there was ever a horrible creep who deserved the death-penalty, surely it would have applied here? A truly horrific crime….

https://rnz.co.nz/news/national/514778/man-who-raped-dutch-tourist-in-northland-denied-parole-for-eighth-time
20 3
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April 20, 2024 1:53pm
- kowtow
  
  How have we made New Zealand such a dangerous country to be a woman in .
  
  It wasn’t always this way.
  
  15 3
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  April 20, 2024 1:57pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    The boomers. Wrecked everything in every western country.
    
    2 24
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    April 20, 2024 2:17pm
    - JimBobJoe
      
      For ‘Boomers’ replace with ‘Leftists’. Then Michael you will right on the money
      
      9 1
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      April 20, 2024 4:36pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    IYKYK
    
    9 3
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    April 20, 2024 2:18pm
  - Keith White
    
    “What’s this ‘we’…”
    
    10 1
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    April 20, 2024 3:00pm
- mogg
  
  A waste of space, bring back the rope.
  
  8 1
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  April 20, 2024 3:12pm
Maggie Pie

And anyone who thinks the HAMAS holocaust in Israel began on Oct 7 last year is very much mistaken.

Here’s a Palestinian terrorist interviewed back in 2018, expaining how SHE picked a pizza hutt to mass murder Jews, but says she also considered schools as well.
In the event, this horrible low life bitch went on to slaughter 16 innocent civilians, including 7 children and a pregnant girl.

https://twitter.com/arnoldroth/status/1008933072497242112

Check out the expression on the Arabs face doing the interview 🙁
No wonder the IDF are sooo determined with their mission of annihilation.
13 3
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April 20, 2024 3:42pm
- MCōs
  
  Interestingly enough I’ve just started reading a book called the ‘Final Solution’ about the Jews 1933-45.
  Anti semitism was a staple of European political life ad infinitum
  There were groups every bit as brutal as Hamas in Germany back in the twenties. When WWII came along most people of most occupied countries were very keen to at least do nothing while their Jewish neighbours were rounded up.
  
  6 0
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  April 20, 2024 5:15pm
- Inandout
  
  Maggie, Mossad have her on the list of disposables.
  
  6 1
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  April 20, 2024 5:39pm
ecco

Watching the Wellington vs Waikato netball game at TSB arena Wellington. Near full house – obviously not too much economic crunch going on with the public service cuts. Maybe need to ramp up the head count cuts a bit more…
3 5
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April 20, 2024 5:01pm
- Mike
  
  What percentage of a Wellington sports crowd would you expect to be public servants?
  
  3 2
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  April 20, 2024 5:29pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Mmmm, (if we are talking women’s soccer/cricket and the like) 98% ?
    
    8 1
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    April 20, 2024 5:37pm
  - Ghost
    
    Well since Ecco was there watching it we should be asking what government department they work for….
    
    4 0
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    April 20, 2024 5:42pm
emmess

I didn’t think was possible.
Biden is losing it even more.
He claiming his uncle was eaten by cannibals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb429k5SHIg
7 1
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April 20, 2024 5:43pm
Benedict Yu

Why would this guy ever be let out of prison?

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/04/20/man-who-raped-dutch-tourist-in-northland-denied-parole/

I honestly don’t know how a parole board could apply a risk assessment and say “yes good to go”.
9 0
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April 20, 2024 6:05pm
Maggie Pie

Home alone tonite and thort about getting KFC.
Then read a post here from Bene about ‘Pork Buns’.
Shot up to NW and sure enuff there in the freezer …. ‘Old Country Food Tradioional Asian BBQ Pork Buns’

OMG!! 15 minits in the steamer and good to go. Served it with a scoop of vege steam rice,hoisin sauce and a chekyy little chablis.

Absolutely DELISH. And still got 5 in the freezer for next time.

THNK YU BENE 😀
8 0
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April 20, 2024 6:47pm

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