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January 27, 2024 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 27 January 2024

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Yvette

■ Kīngitanga: ‘We’re going to go to Waitangi in force’
■ Hīkoi ki Waitangi to stand up for Te Tiriti
■ Shane Jones issues challenge to his hecklers – come to Waitangi

• The signs of a growing sense of unity across Māoridom • PM Luxon shrugs off criticism at Rātana • Strong message sent to parliament from Rātana over Te Tiriti • …The group says it was protesting over-fishing and a government proposal to introduce a bill redefining the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.

Māori will not sit idly by should the government attempt to meddle with te Tiriti o Waitangi

Surely the utterly simple point is that the Treaty has already been meddled with.
The National Coalition are only keen that the Treaty be seen again in its original unmeddled-with translation.

But it seems no-one has expressed it simply and loudly enough, or in unison as a coalition should.
Shane Jones seems to speak for New Zealand First, David Seymour for ACT and, bluntly, Christopher Luxon dithers for National.

And if Maori won’t even consider the simplicity of putting right what Labour, in particular, has broken – they then probably simply have some other opportunistic agenda.
That simple …
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January 27, 2024 8:01am
- JJ56
  
  Thankfully it looks as though we are going to all have a debate about the place of the Treaty in the modern world, something a small minority don’t want.
  
  The subtle irony is this is our democratic right, something that some wish to see as a lesser right.
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:54am
  - Stellaboxer
    
    Those that wish to stifle any debate are those that have ridden the furthest on a gravy train they fear has reached the buffers. When people once employed by the Labour Party as cultural advisors take to organising boat ramp blockades to fishing competitions and out on their arse politicians make thinly veiled threats of violence towards the population it’s very clear in my opinion that the realisation that they are ‘just one of the boys ‘ has come as a very unpleasant shock. Tantrums will occur, lies and misrepresentation will ensue and an attempt to whip the wider Māori population into a moral panic designed to get that train back on the tracks has already began. These clowns are so transparent they should just be ignored most of all by Māori.
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:26am
- Christopher Thomson
  
  Piglets squeal the loudest when they are pulled off the sows tit.
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:58am
- R
  
  That Maori activists, allegedly speaking for ALL Maori, don’t understand, or don’t want to understand, that the coalition govt is NOT attempting to change the TOW from the original document; is a good indication that maori are not yet mature enough to govern a country. Someone needs to take the Jacksons, Harawira’s and the likes aside and explain in very simple words, that the problem they have is with the reinterpretation of the TREATY phraseology by Palmer and a judge or two.
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:58am
  - David Garrett
    
    R: They know very well that the treaty itself is not under threat….they are just playing to the gallery…and the bros who are too stupid to know any better.
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:13am
    - Paulus
      
      And the so called Media Gallery and Party will support Maori if they are to continually condemn everything the ELECTED Government does, which is what they are trying to do, irrespective of anything they did not vote for.
      
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      January 27, 2024 1:32pm
- Damocles11
  
  Maori were promised protection as British subjects, otherwise the French would have grabbed these islands. Dunderheads can maintain the fiction – as many Maori do – that 80,000 Maori (including women, children, elderly) would have defeated powerful European Empires, but it is simply not credible. The Treaty of Waitangi was not some magnanimous gesture by Maori and it was not some dirty trick by the British. It was a document asserting British paramountcy here, shutting the door on the French and any other European power. In exchange for becoming subjects of Queen Victoria, Maori got to keep their lands and possessions and got the protection, governance, and laws of the British Empire. Any other reading does not make sense. Yet what I see repeated often today is something along the lines of ‘the Treaty allowed Europeans to settle in NZ and established a partnership, and Maori did not cede sovereignty’. That is just pure nonsense, it would have made the Treaty a piece of inconsequential fluff. Europeans had already settled here, Maori had already sold them land, colonisation was underway regardless of any Treaty.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:07am
  - David Garrett
    
    Damocles: All correct… and let’s not forget, the chiefs repeated their allegiance to the British Crown at the Kohimarama conference in 1860.
    
    Sadly grievous wrongs were soon visited upon various iwi in what are now correctly called “The Land Wars”, because that is exactly what they were about – settler grabbing land Maori did not want to sell,
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:17am
    - Jigsaw
      
      Only partly true. Te Kooti and his reign of terror had nothing whatever to do with land but much more to do with Maori latching on to aspects of the Old Testament. The massacre at Matawhero in Poverty Bay was mainly visited on Maori -my great-grandfather was involved and later fought Te Kooti under the command of Major Ropata from Nagi Porou. Much more complex that ‘just about land.’
      Most land was sold by a willing seller (if not their own!) to a willing buyer who often was taking a risk.
      
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      January 27, 2024 11:42am
      - David Garrett
        
        Jigsaw: I suggest you borrow the Report of the Sim Commission”, published in 1927 from your local library.
        
        It was extremely blunt and critical of the government of the 1860’s for a document of its time. In short Sim, a retired High Court judge, found that confiscations of land in the Waikato and Taranaki were unlawful, and recommended “fulsome compensation forthwith”. Nothing happened for another 20 years.
        
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        January 27, 2024 6:14pm
  - Damocles11
    
    The ‘Kingites’ set up a rival sovereign and tried to unite all Maori under that rival sovereign. Having already pledged allegiance to one sovereign, this is a clear case of ‘no man can serve two masters’. Rebels and pretenders and rival claimants have not been well treated throughout history. If we are hand-wringing over what occurred in New Zealand then we should also shed copious tears for every other historical rebel that lost their lands, titles, and life when they did not toe the line. As far as I know the Crown has humbled itself and apologised for ‘wrongs’ and sought to make restitution. Whereas Maori conquerors like Te Rauparaha simply took whatever they liked, ‘might is right’, and would laugh at the idea of ‘apologising’. In the Maori world, if you were weaker you didn’t deserve to hold on to your land, liberty, or life – as Maori behaviour in the invasion of the Chatham Islands amply demonstrated.
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:56am
- Grunter
  
  The Māori elites only have one agenda. The ultimate goal is Māori separatism where those elites run the cutter as they see fit.
  
  I say, no, I don’t want that for New Zealand. Then they call me a racist.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:08am
  - Damocles11
    
    How would this separatist ‘Maori state’ be funded (and who would govern it? The Kiingi?) If it is to be funded out of our tax dollars, the revolution will start shortly thereafter.
    
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    January 27, 2024 10:44am
    - Lance
      
      Yes
      Taxation without representation was the cause of the American revolution
      
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      January 27, 2024 11:17am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Magic money tree; it’s a foundational assumption on the left that money is always available to do whatever you want, you just have to have the political will, and all those who claim you have to earn it before you can spend it are just so ignorant of the latest This Time It’s Different™ rationalisations/sophistry as to why it wont create another Venezuela, Cuba, Zimbabwe, Argentina etc.
      
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      January 27, 2024 11:25am
- Beach Haven expat
  
  And with impeccable timing after the hui and Ratana comes the clueless academic claiming NZ supporting the military actions against the Houthis is a breach of the Treaty.
  Could there be a more insightful example of how special interest groups are mangling the ToW to fit their own narrative?
  This is why all the principles crap needs hosing away and a hard reset performed.
  
  PS If we’re so intent on taking down the Houthis, where does this leave the Blowfish?
  (Sorry, couldn’t resist)
  
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  January 27, 2024 5:52pm
peterwn

The News Publishers Association has appointed Andrew Holden (former Press editor and PR person) to lead the industry’s lobbying efforts with the government which is going to be a tough call. Seems the media has bet the bank on a Labour government being returned and now faces having to deal with and ask favours from those the media previously trashed and vilified.
You reap what you sow. I have no sympathy for MSM.
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January 27, 2024 8:01am
- Damocles11
  
  If government money continues to flow to the Leftist activist mainstream media then my vote will be withdrawn from the political party I deem most responsible.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:06am
- Grunter
  
  Imagine the uproar if the new govt gave them new funding, BUT only if they followed David Seymour’s interpretation of the Treaty.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:11am
  - imalwaysright
    
    G
    They’ll take it.
    Its not about the treaty.
    Its all about the money.
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:06am
    - Paulus
      
      That sounds like US Style of everything.
      Money whether earned or politically judgmentally media collected.
      Over there the Lawyers can take 40% of the earnings which is why they tell there ignorant clients to sue.
      
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      January 27, 2024 1:37pm
- nathie
  
  “… now faces having to deal with and ask favours from those the media previously trashed and vilified.”
  
  Previously? More like currently and continuously as well as the fact that it is accelerating.
  
  And it is accelerating to the point that it is causing divisions within society.
  
  If the MSM want govt (financial) support, it will have to amend their codes of conduct to provide balanced viewpoints from both left and right perspectives (and from progressive and conservative).
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:28am
  - Damocles11
    
    “We think you’re evil and we tell the New Zealand public that you are every single day, now please give us money so we don’t go broke”.
    
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    January 27, 2024 10:46am
- Beach Haven expat
  
  From when I’ve heard him speak, he seems an intelligent fellow. So he must be turning around to those he represents and asking what they expect him to get while they continue to attack the Government.
  
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  January 27, 2024 5:57pm
Matt Long

Newspaper owners to staff; push left wing progressive sewage in your articles, workers rights and socialism.
Also newspaper owners; BTW, you’re fired.
“Laid-Off Stuff and Media Works Reporter Sits On Street Corner With Sign Reading ‘Will Call You Racist For Food'”
https://twitter.com/TheBabylonBee/status/1750611933806371313?s=20
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January 27, 2024 8:07am
- Damocles11
  
  Getting rid of the non-political sports journos first, the Leftist activists will be the last to go when they finally shut the doors.
  
  ———
  
  ‘Proposed lay-offs at Stuff:
  The media company is expected to lose up to five sports journalists as part of a proposed restructure presented to staff on Thursday. Media Insider understands about 16 sports journalists in total are affected as a result of the planned restructuring.‘
  
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  January 27, 2024 8:21am
  - Damocles11
    
    “Why aren’t the public buying our content?”
    
    “I bet they don’t like our coverage of sport!”
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:13am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Interest in sport is declining strongly, particularly in younger advertising-focused demographics. Most young adults have little to no interest in sports, unlike people of several generations back because they have more interesting things to devote their spare time to.
      
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      January 27, 2024 11:32am
  - Beach Haven expat
    
    Stuff already has hacked away at its sport teams. Presumably the ladies at the top of the company don’t understand its value in bringing in readers.
    
    I had the misfortune to have dealings with La Bouchier. Very muddled thinking and constant changes in direction. A year after telling me I wasn’t experienced enough, one of her minions contacted me asking for (free) advice on copying an innovation I’d brought in. Poor minion was told to ask her boss why I was not so politely not willing to aid her.
    
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    January 27, 2024 6:02pm
- Inandout
  
  ML.Megan and Andrew sum up the layoffs, and they are substantial.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydQArbXx3HI
  
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  January 27, 2024 8:58am
- ClanMcleod
  
  We predicted this over the last few years. No surprise, other than the length of time it took. I guess the gravy train eventually ran out of gravy.
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:14am
Yvette

• Pita Tipene (Ngāti Hine) said he was angry and frustrated about a call to remove Te Mana o te Wai principles from Northland’s freshwater plan

• Tai Tokerau-based Green MP Hūhana Lyndon (Ngāti Hine, Ngatiwai, Ngā hapū o Whangārei) said she was also “also gravely concerned about this massive about-face” on the draft freshwater plan.
“It took my breath away. I thought ‘are you kidding me?’ ”

• PM warned on scrapping te mana o te wai policy
Māori iwi, business and environmental leaders including Traci Houpapa, Paul Morgan and Kingi Smiler have joined freshwater experts in writing to Prime Minister Christopher Luxon to urge him not to make a “terrible mistake” on clean drinking water and healthy rivers.

Te Mana o te Wai
The National Coalition should check where the worship of water spills over into te Ao Maori – the Maori religious world view.

Sun Tzu would …

Remove the Maori Advisory Council to the new Water Regulator.
It will upset Tuku Morgan and Advisory Council Chair, Tipa Mahuuta – but do it
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January 27, 2024 8:09am
- pdm
  
  `Remove the Maori Advisory Council to the new Water Regulator.’
  
  Christopher Luxon.
  
  `Lets do this!!!’
  
  Pronto.
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:43am
- Grumpy Silver Top
  
  It’s not about the water. It’s about the gravy train being derailed.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:20am
- Paulus
  
  Our Government did not, like Labour, invent these things – it was part of their Election Manifesto.
  
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  January 27, 2024 1:40pm
kowtow

Talking of te media , that really was a news blitz on behalf of Kiri Allan yesterday .
Front page NZME and then an “exclusive” thatnight on TV1 .

Not sure what they’re up to , but the NZ public , as usual, is being played , bigly.
Te Media Pahti is not your friend.
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January 27, 2024 8:11am
- Damocles11
  
  Public rehabilitation job, as she’ll be lined up for future roles within the Leftist matrix.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:09am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Martha Luther King
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:09am
Grunter

The leaked jab data isn’t going away. Have a read of Steve Kirsch emails to Health NZ etc. They are obviously worried to be chasing him down like this, and as Steve points out, the data can not be tracked to individuals so what else are they worried about?

https://open.substack.com/pub/stevekirsch/p/health-new-zealand-is-at-it-again?r=7myba&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
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January 27, 2024 8:11am
Chuck Bird

If Gaza were to become a separate country. It would be free to make trade deals and form alliances with other countries. It would be allowed to have its own army, navy and air force and buy what weapons.

Does anyone think NZ’s suggestion for a 2 State solution for Israel makes sense?
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January 27, 2024 8:13am
- Damocles11
  
  The ‘two state solution’ would create a Palestinian state out of Gaza and the West Bank, with some sort of access way between the two areas. If this ends the conflict & brings peace to this area of the Middle East then it would be hard to see why the Palestinian state should not be allowed defence forces like any other state.
  
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  January 27, 2024 8:18am
  - Chuck Bird
    
    How would you suggest this would bring peace to the area? Hamas wants to destroy Isreal.
    
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    January 27, 2024 9:48am
    - Che Guava
      
      They both want to destroy each other Chuck. Stop pretending that Israel a blameless, morally upright victim of circumstance, because that is false.
      
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      January 27, 2024 10:09am
      - Chuck Bird
        
        If Israel what to eliminate Gaza they could. I do not say Israel is blameless especially on the West Bank but your claim is wrong.
        
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        January 27, 2024 10:49am
      - Che Guava
        
        “If Israel what to eliminate Gaza they could”
        
        I don’t think there’s any real doubt about this. After all, that’s what they’ve been up to for the last few months, in case you hadn’t noticed.
        
        By contrast, Hamas have no capacity at all to eliminate Israel.
        
        This stark contrast, which has moved well beyond theoretical and is proved by the reality on the ground, makes claims that “Hamas want to destroy Israel” about as fanciful in the realm of reality as the claim that “I want to bang a supermodel.”
        
        Maybe so, but then reality breaks through and all becomes just words.
        
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        January 27, 2024 10:54am
      - Beach Haven expat
        
        Hamas has no capacity to take out Israel? Left to keep taking out 1,200-1,400 people at a time without consequences would eventually get them there. Not sure Israel’s birth rate would keep up.
        
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        January 27, 2024 6:08pm
    - Damocles11
      
      Hamas wouldn’t feature in a ‘two state solution’, obviously!! Did I not make that clear by saying that it would be a solution? The Palestinian Authority or some new political entity would need to govern Palestine. There would need to be a peace treaty between the Palestinian state and Israel.
      If no solution is found along these lines, war will never end in this region.
      
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      January 27, 2024 10:13am
      - Beach Haven expat
        
        The PA are mot models of a liberal wing of the Palestinians. They pay salaries to captured terrorists. And cash to families of the dead ones.
        
        And to Che’s rant about the Jews cause trouble wherever they go so deserve it – just Wow. Throwing the Nazi slur is never a good argument but maybe just reflect on who rose to power on that particular narrative. I’m surprised the mods are allowing Dollar Shop versions of Hitler’s speeches to be posted.
        
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        January 27, 2024 6:15pm
    - imalwaysright
      
      “Hamas wants to destroy Isreal”
      
      There are now far fewer people wondering why than there were a few months ago.
      
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      January 27, 2024 10:15am
      - Che Guava
        
        Indeed. They don’t want to destroy Israel for no reason, the reason is the behaviour of the Jews. The Jews always neglect to mention the last part of the equation.
        
        “Anti-semitism” is a phenomenon just like any other. We can thus observe it, and then try to account for why it exists. It is also a persistent phenomenon with a very long history, so there is a lot of data to analyse.
        
        What is dismissed as the “irrational anti-semitism” that seems to follow the Jews around everywhere they go is actually a perfectly rational response to the often bad collective Jewish behaviour. Taken on a smaller scale, if everybody concludes that one particular guy is an asshole, then maybe they’ve all got a point.
        
        Rather than analyse the common element in anti-semitism, we are told to ignore the obvious and blame everyone else except the Jews.
        
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        January 27, 2024 12:35pm
    - Romney
      
      Like we did to Germany and Japan. Crush and humiliate them. Destroy Hamas, then build a country worthy of the name and run it for them until they can manage themselves. At least two generations. Anything less perpetuates the status quo.
      
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      January 27, 2024 10:45am
      - Don Beckett
        
        Israel have already done that, & all they got in return were rockets, terrorism & a threat to be exterminated.
        
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        January 27, 2024 11:07am
      - Chuck Bird
        
        The US did not Crush and humiliate Japan and Germany, especially Japan. They are both democracies.
        
        Can you name a Muslim majority country that is a democracy? The US hoped to turn Iraq into a democracy. Muslims prefer a theocracy to a democracy.
        
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        January 27, 2024 11:15am
      - NothingLeft
        
        “…Muslim majority country that is a democracy”
        
        Malaysia, Indonesia, Albania, Bangladesh
        
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        January 27, 2024 11:42am
      - Matt Long
        
        Democratic countries formerly under Islamic Rule
        Greece, Albania, North Macedonia, Kosovo, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria.
        
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        January 27, 2024 12:19pm
      - Che Guava
        
        “Like we did to Germany and Japan. Crush and humiliate them. ”
        
        That’s guaranteed to a) not work, and b) ensure that the problem rears its head in the future but even worse.
        
        WW2 was guaranteed at the signing of the Treaty of Versailles at the end of WW1. Hitler and the Nazis and their anti-semitism didn’t arise in a vacuum, it was born out of the punative policies imposed on Germany. People forget that Germany was never actually militarily defeated in WW1 – the Allies never entered Germany – they came to the table in good faith and were totally scapegoated and shafted for their troubles.
        
        And yes, many who did the shafting among the French, British and Americans were Jewish, as were many of the leaders of the post-war wave of Marxist revolutions that nearly swamped Europe. This was one motivation for the persecution of Jews in the Third Reich.
        
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        January 27, 2024 12:45pm
      - Che Guava
        
        Chuck
        “The US did not Crush and humiliate Japan and Germany, especially Japan. They are both democracies.”
        
        They were both proud self-determining sovereign nations that, as a consequence of their defeat, were turned into “democracies” completely under the thumb as vassals of the US. The “liberal democratic order” has been occupying them continually, militarily as well as socio-economically, since 1945. The US never left. The humilation continues, even if the present generations fail to appreciate it and are told it is for the best.
        
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        January 27, 2024 12:57pm
      - Dave
        
        For Che @ 12.45.
        
        WW2 was guaranteed at the signing of the Treaty of Versailles at the end of WW1. Hitler and the Nazis and their anti-semitism didn’t arise in a vacuum, it was born out of the punative policies imposed on Germany. People forget that Germany was never actually militarily defeated in WW1 – the Allies never entered Germany – they came to the table in good faith and were totally scapegoated and shafted for their troubles.
        
        That’s an impressive number of historical half-truths for one paragraph.
        
        Though Versailles made a new war more likely – Foch accurately predicted in 1919 a rerun of The Great War in 20 years time – it was scarcely inevitable. German diplomats in the 1930s were confident that the territorial losses and the financial penalties of 1919 could be reversed without war.
        
        The Nazi party didn’t become a major political force until economic collapse ten years later.
        
        Anti-semitism has a long European history, and continued into the early 20th century. For a German army example from 1916, search Judenzahlung.
        
        Yes, Versailles was punitive, but Germans quickly forgot the far more draconian terms they had imposed at Brest-Litovsk a year earlier, and the terms which concluded the Franco-Prussian war less than 50 years ago.
        
        Correct, Allied armies had not entered Germany during the war, but in 1918 Ludendorff, having concealed the magnitude of successive German defeats from the government, demanded an unrealistic armistice to buy time to revive the army and thwart German collapse, but the Allies, with German power irretrievably waning and the other Central Powers collapsing, weren’t having it. Of course, Hindenburg and the military were content to let others take the blame for defeat, rather than blame their own pursuit of unachievable goals.
        
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        January 27, 2024 5:59pm
      - Beach Haven expat
        
        Worked with Germany and Japan but Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya not so much.
        
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        January 27, 2024 6:17pm
      - Beach Haven expat
        
        When is Che going to deny the Holocaust happened?
        
        I’ll save your crayons for you having to write your next post out. Just copy and paste this:
        “It was just a series of misunderstandings. Which the Jews then exploited.”
        
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        January 27, 2024 6:23pm
      - Jake Dee
        
        And yet that is exactly what we DIDN’T do to German and Japan after WWII.
        Have you heard of the Morgenthau plan to deindustrialize and depopulate Germany after the war so it could never threaten peace again?
        Considered and rejected. what happened was the Marshall plan with massive investment and rebuilding. later we had European integration and re-arming under NATO. The East Germany government was full of ex-nazis and the Japanese businesses are still full of the old Samurai clans.
        There is real history here that can show us the way forward.
        
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        January 27, 2024 10:25pm
    - Paulus
      
      Not only Hamas want to destroy Israel but Iran, Lebanon and of course behind much of it Putin.
      But don’t forget the UN/Hague Courts whereby South Africa was paid US$400,000 to bring charges against Israel.
      South Africa genocide – of all countries, but money counts.
      
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      January 27, 2024 1:44pm
      - Jake Dee
        
        Paid by whom?
        
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        January 27, 2024 10:26pm
- Dudley Quaffquaff
  
  NZ’s suggestion? The “two state solution” has been mainstream international opinion for years.
  
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  January 27, 2024 8:26am
  - Chuck Bird
    
    Is NZ not meant to have an indpendant foreign policy?
    
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    January 27, 2024 9:55am
    - Don Beckett
      
      The “two state solution” will not include the west bank. You can take that to the bank.
      
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      January 27, 2024 11:08am
      - Damocles11
        
        There is *already* a rump Palestinian state in the West Bank, run by the Palestinian Authority.
        
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        January 27, 2024 12:03pm
    - Dudley Quaffquaff
      
      We’re small, distant, unimportant on the global stage and have no especial interest or expertise in the region, which reciprocates by having no especial interest or expertise in us. I’d need a lot of convincing that the benefits of developing and promoting a distinctive, independent and properly thought through policy position in this regard would justify the costs.
      
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      January 27, 2024 12:38pm
  - David Garrett
    
    Dudley: the “two state solution” – or rather variants of it – have been floated from time to time for 120 years, even before the declaration of the state of Israel in 1948.
    
    To be fair, although now Israel says it won’t have a bar of it, in the past it has usually been the Palestinians who have rejected it.
    
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    January 27, 2024 10:06am
    - Che Guava
      
      “…in the past it has usually been the Palestinians who have rejected it.”
      
      Let’s accept that at face value. This is only half the story at best. As always, the “why” needs to be considered, not just the what. When terms being offered are completely unsatisfactory and weighted towards one side, there is no obligation to accept.
      
      For example, would you enter into an agreement for sale and purchase that would screw you over to the benefit of the other party? If you continually rejected such contracts over time, you’d perhaps become known as “the guy who kept rejecting agreements,” but, while true, that would be only half of the story.
      
      The problem would be with the terms of the agreements, not your arbitrarily rejecting them in the interests of simply being an obstacle to agreements being reached.
      
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      January 27, 2024 10:24am
  - Paulus
    
    Palestine is already a state – under Mahmoud Abbas
    Mahmoud Abbas also known by the ame Abu Mazen is the president of the State of Palestine and the Palestinian National Authority (PNA).
    
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    January 27, 2024 1:47pm
    - Jake Dee
      
      Pure semantics.
      The West Bank is not a state it’s an occupied territory. Try making a definition of a State and see how many conditions The West Bank meets. It has less power and authority than Transnistria and considerably less than Hong Kong, neither of which are states.
      
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      January 27, 2024 10:32pm
- Grunter
  
  To me, a 2 state solution was always the sensible way to go, possibly even the only viable option.
  
  But after what happened on Oct 7th, and now the aftermath, a 2 state solution is gone for generations to come, maybe forever (IMO). Too much hate and death.
  
  Now there is no solution that I can see. Maybe someone can come up with something soon, otherwise it’s escalation here we come (from both sides).
  
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  January 27, 2024 8:31am
  - Chuck Bird
    
    There is no good solution. However, the UN could help if they were not so anti Jewish. They should say no cease fire until all hostages are returned and Hamas is unable to fire missiles.
    
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    January 27, 2024 9:35am
    - David Garrett
      
      Chuck: And you think Hamas would respond to such a declaration by the UN?
      
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      January 27, 2024 10:08am
      - Chuck Bird
        
        No. Of course not. But as long as the UN does not call for the return of hostages it allows Israel to ignore calls for a cease fire and sound reasonable expect to Jew haters.
        
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        January 27, 2024 10:35am
      - Paulus
        
        Israelis support the sanctity of Life, whereas the Hamas and others support death as they are taught from birth, and their education from the Koran.
        Virgins matter to them as they are taught.
        
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        January 27, 2024 1:49pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    ‘Forever’ is a long time, Grunter
    
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    January 27, 2024 10:16am
  - imalwaysright
    
    ‘Two state solution’ has connotations of an ongoing link.
    
    Would ‘independent countries’ be a better outcome more favourable to both sides.
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:16am
- Littletramp
  
  If you were able to achieve this without participation/interference of Hamas, Mossad, CIA & MI6, a 2 state solution would be possible.
  Then you just have to work out who gets the offshore oil & gas resource.
  Short answer – no ain’t gonna happen.
  
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  January 27, 2024 8:41am
- thirteenstars
  
  There is no two-state solution. It’s a lie told by each side for very different reasons.
  
  If the West Bank had free elections tomorrow, which the Palestinian Authority won’t allow, Hamas would be elected, just like it got elected in Gaza.
  
  There are actually three states in existence: Gaza claimed by Hamas, West bank claimed by the PA but actually Fatah, and Israel proper. Hamas and Fatah are at each other’s throats and both attack Israel. There is no Palestine because they’ve balkanised themselves out of existence.
  
  Good luck.
  
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  January 27, 2024 8:44am
  - Jake Dee
    
    Why even bother with Free Elections? that’s just a ritualistic fig leaf that The West believe bestows legitimacy on a regime.
    Mao Zedong was perfectly correct when he said “The new regime flows from the barrel of a gun”. President George Washington and the United States of America weren’t established by free elections neither was Israel, New Zealand or any part of The British Empire, all barrel of a gun.
    That’s not me endorsing that reality, just pointing it out.
    Peace will only come in Gaza through an armed force (hopefully an international one) than can make both the Israelis and the Palestinians bow down to it.
    
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    January 27, 2024 10:42pm
- Tommo
  
  Isn’t that kind of what happened post 2005?
  
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  January 27, 2024 8:51am
  - Chuck Bird
    
    Sort of but not quite. Gaza never was an independent state or a country as is suggested by NZ and some other countries.
    
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    January 27, 2024 9:21am
- mandk
  
  No proposed 2-state solution makes sense when one side has the steadfast, avowed intention to wipe the other off the face of the map.
  
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  January 27, 2024 8:53am
  - Damocles11
    
    Obviously that stance would need to change. There is already a rump Palestinian state in the West Bank, run by the Palestinian Authority.
    
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    January 27, 2024 12:02pm
- I remember when
  
  A two state solution.
  Israel arms itself.
  Palestine arms itself.
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:16am
- CAKE FACE1
  
  New Zealand = 268k km²
  Canterbury Region = 45k km²
  Israel = 22 km²
  
  So Israel is just less than half the size of Canterbury…
  
  The two-state solution would make Palestine much less than one quarter the size of Canterbury.
  
  Would Palestine be a viable state? Hmm.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:19am
  - Don Beckett
    
    Rubbish. Israel is over 22,000 sq.kms. Where did you get your figures?
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:13am
    - Chuck Bird
      
      He missed putting a k after the 22 as he did with the other areas.
      
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      January 27, 2024 11:18am
  - Lance
    
    The map of Israel fits roughly over the North Isalnd of NZ from Hamiltion North.
    I have seen the overlay in the Israel consulate in Auckland, it’s quite remarkably similar
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:25am
    - CAKE FACE1
      
      New Zealand = 268k km²
      Israel = 22k km²
      
      NZ is therefore about 12 times the size of Israel, which is tiny.
      
      Egypt, on the other hand, is 1,010k km², or 45 times the size of Israel.
      
      So many Arabs are crowding into the tiny areas of Gaza or the West Bank, when the Middle East is so massive…
      
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      January 27, 2024 12:42pm
  - Taieri
    
    Singapore = 734 km 2
    
    Is Singapore a viable state?
    
    For comparison, the administrative area of Dunedin is 3314 km 2
    
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    January 27, 2024 1:49pm
    - CAKE FACE1
      
      “Is Singapore a viable state?”
      
      Yes. Singapore has a huge port, rule of law and a strong economy.
      
      On the other hand, Gaza and the West Bank are very small, and these Arab enclave economies are completely reliant on UN welfare.
      
      I don’t think that Singapore and Gaza are economically or socially similar.
      
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      January 27, 2024 5:10pm
      - Taieri
        
        Of course they are not similar. But the land area does not determine the prosperity of a state. Switzerland is small. Mongolia is big. And the difference is…
        
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        January 27, 2024 6:59pm
      - Jake Dee
        
        Make it an international protectorate under a UN mandate. It’s been done before.
        
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        January 27, 2024 10:45pm
- sungsamning
  
  No.
  
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  January 27, 2024 5:16pm
Matt Long

Socialists the world over want other people to find their fancies.
In Wellington they want to spend on anything but the their three waters, which people outside the region should pay for.
In the USA Sanctimonious Sanctuary Cities, having found stinky migrants actually turning up in their midst instead of staying in Texas where they belong want the federal taxpayer to fund getting rid of them.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/gop-lawmaker-moves-defund-sanctuary-cities-slams-hypocrisy-they-seek-federal-aid-migrant-crisis
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January 27, 2024 8:18am
- Matt Long
  
  Meanwhile Biden’s border policy of “let them all in and the border states be damned,” is creating a cold civil war, with armed state forces facing off against armed federal forces.
  Thank heavens Trump isn’t president, otherwise there’d be armed insurrections and civil war.
  
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  January 27, 2024 8:22am
  - Grunter
    
    Here’s a decent summary of Biden vs Texas
    
    https://mises.org/power-market/its-biden-vs-texas-and-texas-right
    
    One interesting statement from the Tex Govnor “6 million illegal immigrants in 3 years”. Apparently lots of sick people now flooding hospitals etc
    
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    January 27, 2024 8:26am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Under Trump there would be far less crossing the border.
    Joe wants them for future votes.
    
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    January 27, 2024 8:36am
    - Paulus
      
      I understand in many places and States in the USA you do not need any real identification to vote !
      Biden knows that too.
      
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      January 27, 2024 8:48am
    - pdm
      
      Steve I think you mean Joe’s mates in the Democrats want them for future votes.
      
      Joe himself would not have a bloody clue what is happening around him.
      
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      January 27, 2024 9:02am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Yes, you would be correct.
        
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        January 27, 2024 9:57am
  - thirteenstars
    
    If Trump had been president for the last three years the border would have been closed and Texas would have no reason to be taking the action it is now.
    
    10,000/day are crossing the border. That’s 1% of the US population every year just in illegal crossings. That’s where the conflict arises. Shut that down and you’ve made a pretty good start.
    
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    January 27, 2024 8:55am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Thing is there are many people from even the middle east getting into Mexico and then crossing the border. That means trouble.
      
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      January 27, 2024 9:59am
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        Africans cross to Brazil & then head North.
        
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        January 27, 2024 10:18am
    - imalwaysright
      
      250,000 legal immigrants to NZ last year.
      And they couldn’t give a toss about the treaty.
      The maori activists should be worried.
      NZ is changing.
      
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      January 27, 2024 10:24am
      - thirteenstars
        
        The real figure is nett migration which is those allowed in minus those who left, and that figure from memory is evenly split with the nett gain being ~130k.
        
        So yes, 250k have come in but 120k have buggered off and they’ve gone for better prospects elsewhere, and they are most likely hardworking middle class types.
        
        In the large Kiwi exodus to Australia in the early 80s, Muldoon (the main cause of the exodus) quipped that every such emigrant raised the IQ of both countries. Well, we have the reverse now, our best departing, being replaced by mostly those of quite different cultural and religious backgrounds.
        
        It’s as if we had no control over our own immigration policies.
        
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        January 27, 2024 11:23am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Thirteen ,
        You are right about the nett migration , however my point is that there are 250,000 immigrants who don’t particularly care about the treaty thereby diluting support for it and reducing tolerance of activists .
        
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        January 27, 2024 12:28pm
      - thirteenstars
        
        “250,000 immigrants who don’t particularly care about the treaty”
        
        Sure, but what else don’t they care about? What’s the sense in merely importing a mish-mash of mostly Asian cultures to a country that is of Western culture and values?
        
        Why aren’t we sourcing immigrants from like-minded countries? Why aren’t we making it very attractive for them to bring their capital and similar values here? We have a small population and to increase it 1% per year through immigration is only 50k people yet we bring in 250k from mostly non-like-minded areas.
        
        I’m not anti-Asian in the racist sense but to import such large numbers from very different cultures as we are doing is effectively national suicide.
        
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        January 27, 2024 12:55pm
      - backster
        
        Migrants last year….45,000 Indians + 10,000 Fiji Indians, 34,000 Phillipines, 28000 Chinese, 26000 Returning New Zealanders, 9000 South Africans, 7,000 Australians 6,000 UK…I think we should all be worried.
        
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        January 27, 2024 1:15pm
      - imalwaysright
        
        Thirteen,
        Agreed
        
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        January 27, 2024 1:43pm
    - virtualmark
      
      Except …
      * large numbers of illegal immigrants were coming across the border during Trump’s Presidency too,
      * Trump failed to pass any material immigration laws, even when he had a GOP Senate and House,
      * So Trump too was releasing large numbers of immigrants into the interior,
      * Meanwhile Biden is returning over 3 times as many immigrants back to Central & South America has Trump was.
      
      The reality is that the US, regardless of who is President, needs to commit more money and resource into:
      1) Tightening its southern border,
      2) Building a lot more capacity into immigrant/asylum processing, and
      3) Taking active steps to improve life for people in central & South America so that they have less incentive to come north … much of this problem is due to places like Guatemala, Nicaragua and Venezuela being basket cases, often in part due to US foreign policies.
      
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      January 27, 2024 11:09am
      - NothingLeft
        
        Trump started building the wall in 2016-2017, but then the Dems gained control of house in 2018 and stopped it and even started dismantling portions of it (Trump made some major efforts after 2018 to keep it going using executive powers that were nobbled by Dems) and otherwise preventing more construction continuing to this day. This has been a deliberate policy of Dems who clearly want a whole lot of illegal immigration to:
        1./ increase their voting base
        2/ keep labour costs low for the ‘servant/labourer’ class.
        
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        January 27, 2024 11:51am
      - virtualmark
        
        I’m all for the US building a serious wall along the border, but Trump never committed to a serious build-out. And, of course, Mexico was never going to pay for it.
        
        Beyond Fox News fictions I don’t see evidence that Biden wants or welcomes illegal immigrants. He’s asking Congress for at least US$15b to employ more border agents … and they’re refusing him.
        
        And illegal immigrants can’t vote. And if they could be shown to somehow having illegally voted then (a) those votes would be cancelled and (b) Trump might have actually had something serious to take to his election court cases.
        
        But yes, labour is a dirty secret. If the US were to actually locate and deport all the illegal immigrants then much of the US farming & construction industries would grind to a halt. Truth is the US needs working-age immigrants to replace retiring boomers and to do the jobs that native-born ‘Muricans don’t seem to want to do.
        
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        January 27, 2024 12:19pm
      - virtualmark
        
        Quotes from a White House statement made earlier today:
        
        “Two months ago I instructed my team to begin negotiations with a bipartisan group of Senators to seriously … address the border crisis.”
        
        “What’s been negotiated would – if passed into law – be the toughest and fairest set of reforms to secure the border we’ve ever had in our country.”
        
        “This includes an additional 1,300 border patrol agents, 375 immigration judges, 1,600 asylum officers, and over 100 cutting-edge inspection machines to … detect fentanyl.”
        
        “If you’re serious about the border crisis, pass a bipartisan bill and I will sign it.”
        
        https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/01/26/statement-from-president-joe-biden-on-the-bipartisan-senate-border-security-negotiations/
        
        Biden is not the holdup here – the GOP House is, it seems at Trump’s instruction.
        
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        January 27, 2024 1:19pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        1) and 2 ( correct,
        ” Taking active steps to improve life for people in central & South America so that they have less incentive to come north”
        Nope virtualmark. Trump looks after Americans first.
        No more milking US Taxpayers to donate to other Countries. America first.
        Do you think America should treat citizens and especially Veterans like SHIT?
        Right turn Clyde>>>>>
        
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        January 27, 2024 6:11pm
Yvette

The American Museum of Natural History’s Hall of the Great Plains is being closed this weekend as the museum works to comply with new federal rules governing the holding and display of Native American cultural items.

… But the action by the American Museum of Natural History in New York, which draws 4.5 million visitors a year, making it one of the most visited museums in the world, sends a powerful message to the field. The museum’s anthropology department is one of the oldest and most prestigious in the United States, known for doing pioneering work under a long line of curators including Franz Boas and Margaret Mead. The closures will leave nearly 10,000 square feet of exhibition space off-limits to visitors; the museum said it could not provide an exact timeline for when the reconsidered exhibits would reopen …

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/26/arts/design/american-museum-of-natural-history-nagpra.html – subscription access

Watch this happen here, when they catch up
Defacing the Treaty display in Te Papa was perhaps the start
Back in 2008 I nearly saw the galleries dedicated to the Eastern Woodlands and the Great Plains, me standing on the brink of entry saying to a friend “Let’s see this, I have always been interested” but her seven year old son said “Let’s not, we get so much of this stuff at school”
So we didn’t
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January 27, 2024 8:18am
kowtow

Who knew that the guy leading the illegal blockade of public fishing ramps and roads up North has a conviction for assaulting John Key in 2009 and two /3 schoolboy witnesses of a robbery committed by 2 nephews of Hone Harwira in 2011 .

Who knew this thug is a Crown Maori relations advisor who addressed Ardern’s cabinet in 2019 and he also has some role in police relations up there.

I suppose all this Establishment Elite dystopian lunacy comes under active protection of treaty “principles”.
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January 27, 2024 8:20am
- pdm
  
  TV1 said last night he was also a Farmer and a School teacher.
  
  A bloody school teacher:
  What qualifications does he have.?
  What is he teaching the impressionable young minds where he teaches?
  
  Scary!!!
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:49am
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    What does he farm? What grows well up north?
    
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    January 27, 2024 10:19am
  - Grunter
    
    I never watch it but it sounds like TV1 News has gone to a whole new level of BS and lies?
    
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    January 27, 2024 10:21am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Last night TV 1 failed to mention his convictions against the school boys.
    
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/man-who-assaulted-schoolboy-witnesses-to-be-re-sentenced/ZQABB4WC3PYGXMBK76P57N3ZXU/
    
    It was a deliberate attempt to paint him as a righteous political warrior… not as a bully thug.
    
    Strange how he is now a school teacher when he has convictions for assaulting 2 schoolboys.
    
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    January 27, 2024 10:22am
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Yep. If he’d been a teacher in the 50s & 60s, he’d have been right up with the zeitgeist. But not now.
      
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      January 27, 2024 10:23am
- nathie
  
  Would it be fair to say that when people are prone to inflicting violence (eg against innocents as per your examples) and so much so that they are convicted, that they are also violent in their own home?
  
  Should OT and Woman’s Refuge be paying this disgraced thug a visit?
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:40am
  - imalwaysright
    
    “Should OT and Woman’s Refuge be paying this disgraced thug a visit?”
    
    They normally turn up after the police and the undertaker.
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:24am
- Damocles11
  
  He was on the gravy train, a smart guy would have stayed on it.
  
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  January 27, 2024 12:04pm
Tomtoddy

The Ferald’s online edition this morning has almost no content I would call news – not news we would have encountered 20 years or so ago. Instead it is opinion, vague stories of individual’s personal lives, how the demons killed someone’s cat and how weird things we might do are linked to the past.

“Don’t read it” you say. I am an old news junkie. It is hard to find anything that covers events.
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January 27, 2024 8:24am
- Grunter
  
  I can’t find anywhere that covers local and NZ news. Maybe the odd piece of commentary on The Platform which I sometimes pick up. But old style NZ journalism has gone I’m afraid.
  
  Reading the Saturday paper over a coffee…… I miss that!! The ODT is now also a shambles.
  
  All a bit sad really.
  
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  January 27, 2024 8:41am
  - Bridgenag
    
    Used to like the Listener before it went woke
    
    Haven’t wasted money on the Ferald for 15 years
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:18am
- Opie
  
  It’s a good point.
  
  If you just want news it’s very difficult to find. Canterbury beat wellington in a cricket thriller yesterday to make the final. No mention.
  
  I won’t read stuff, newshub and begrudgingly look at newstalk zb which gets worse by the day.
  
  Used to read the dominion and and evening post every day, internet news sites are like reading women’s magazines and left political propaganda
  
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  January 27, 2024 8:47am
- Debsta
  
  With ya there Tom!
  
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  January 27, 2024 8:47am
- Rusty
  
  @Tomtoddy
  
  Do you remember the 8 o’clock and Auckland Star newspapers?
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:04am
- ClanMcleod
  
  Try this out. I found them almost 4 years ago, it’s been quite excellent and covers numerous subjects of world importance.
  I don’t always agree with them, if I did I would be concerned because that’s not how the world works.
  
  https://www.ukcolumn.org/
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:17am
  - Debsta
    
    Thanks Clan will do, but still doesn’t solve issue of finding balanced NZ news.
    
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    January 27, 2024 9:35am
    - ClanMcleod
      
      Right now it’s totally impossible to find balanced NZ news, not good for the country long term. We’re a bit of a basket case.
      
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      January 27, 2024 5:16pm
- kiwikidsnz
  
  All MSM has total silence this morning on the Doubtless bay fishing comp protest, anyone else know what happened today?
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:37am
  - Damocles11
    
    I guess if the police sent them packing then they won’t cover that.
    
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    January 27, 2024 10:19am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    I wonder if the Police involved themselves to stop boats being launched, saying they are preventing any trouble. Also instructing media to shut up.
    With the current state of the Police it would not surprise me one bit.
    
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    January 27, 2024 10:20am
- Damocles11
  
  Please stop funding people like Simon Wilson and Rod Emmerson, I implore you. Would you put money towards a paper called ‘The Socialist Gazette’ or ‘The Marxist Daily’? The old Herald is dead and gone, something awful took its place.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:18am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  It just goes to show that there’s a market for NZ news. The media owners can’t spot the business opportunity under their collective noses.
  
  Dumber than a bag of hammers.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:25am
- julesnzuk
  
  “The Ferald” – ha ha, love it! (The nickname not the paper, to be clear!)
  
  I listen to the Platform (very good) and read the opinion pieces on there. Also “Basset, Brash and Hyde” is good.
  
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  January 28, 2024 12:58am
Yvette

Seymour should publicly ask “Why did the Labour Government install te Puna, a Maori Advisory Council, to preside over Taumata Aorwai, the Water Regulator – and not have advisory council for any other ethnicity or religious world view relating to water?”

■ Education Act 1964 (Section 77)
77 Teaching in State primary schools must be secular
78 Religious instruction and observances in State primary schools
78A
79 Attendance at religious instruction or observances not compulsory

■ New Zealand is a secular nation, meaning there is a formal separation between the state and religious entities.

Except one …
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January 27, 2024 8:26am
Drone

Is this the end of a world where rules work. From the Guardian “The UN’s international court of justice has ordered Israel to ensure its forces do not commit acts of genocide against Palestinians in Gaza, in a historic decision.” Israel will ignore this ruling, which will give every despot the belief that they can ignore the IJC and other world organisations that attempt to police violent actions. Finally, it comes down to the strong imposing their will on the not-so-strong, as it always has. We’ve seen it over the last few years America and the UK invading Iraq, Russia invading Ukraine, Israel invading Gaza. World order is breaking down. Sweden formally a neutral country is talking about introducing conscription. Australia will have nuclear submarines. America is concerned China will invade Taiwan and halt the production of iPhones. Where will it end..
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January 27, 2024 8:27am
- Grunter
  
  Where will it end? No one knows of course but history shows that there are always hotspots where wars repeat themselves for geopolitical and religious reasons (Drone you’ve listed most of them).
  
  The big difference now of course is most sides have nukes. So far these have been a great deterrent to war. But that now feels like it is not true anymore.
  
  I hope I’m wrong. But do I trust any of the current crop of world leaders to defuse all these conflicts – no I do not.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:31am
- Che Guava
  
  The irony is that much of international law since 1945, including the ex post facto formulation of the idea of “crimes against humanity,” was a response to the Jewish experience.
  
  Now that “the Jewish experience” includes flattening Gaza, killing its inhabitants, or forcing them to flee – at the very least a campaign of ethnic cleansing – they’ll continue to ignore international law, just as they have done since at least 1967 with their illegal settlements in the West Bank.
  
  I just hope the Jews will immediately stop using their propagandistic phrase “Never Again,” given that they are currently engaged in similar behaviour themselves.
  
  Relatedly, it seems the Jews have got their own “Greta” to assist them in improving their public image, currently in the toilet globally:
  
  “Do not use other genocides to describe this one.”
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZN3A0L2gwk
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:46am
Matt Long

What I cannot understand here is that people who are so in tune with the Mauri of various and all entities, and need to be paid to be consulted over all decisions that might affect Mauri of same, could not possibly leave rubbish around the sacred treaty sacred grounds, so what’s this article all about?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/waste-busters-wanted-to-help-clean-up-at-waitangi-day-commemorations/FNSPVYDHFBASHHFCDBDHIXFVC4/
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January 27, 2024 8:38am
- Southern Raider
  
  Same as when you go to the beach and look at who gets up and walks away from their KFC and McDonalds rubbish, even though a bin in only 5m away
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:18am
  - Media hater
    
    At Milford Beach it is always the Pacific church groups who leave their crap strewn everywhere, including beer bottles in the sand. It happens every summer.
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:40am
Southern Raider

Internal war is brewing in the USA

Biden ripping down border fences in Texas and trying to tell Texas they can’t put them back up

Texas is giving him the middle finger and putting more fences up and other states sending razor wire to Texas
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January 27, 2024 8:47am
- Che Guava
  
  Why is the federal government actively facilitating the illegal entry of millions of people to the United States? It’s a policy, not just a failure of a policy to keep them out. Given that a country is not a country without recognised borders that are stringently enforced, this policy by itself makes the federal government completely illegitimate.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:31am
Southern Raider

National already soft on crime and all talk?

Radical Māoris blocking boat ramps and northland Police just “monitoring the situation”
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January 27, 2024 8:49am
- pdm
  
  Where is Mark Mitchell?
  
  He should be condemning these unlawful actions and kicking Coster into action..
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:53am
  - Ghost
    
    I’d suggest reading what Trudy Allen (Ngāti Kahu) has said
    
    I can understand your frustration unfortunately the law is the law … they have a right to protest… however they cannot obstruct anyone the next few days … that is when the police have been instructed by council the legal owners of the land which is the land the sailing club is on the car parking area including the boat ramp the police have be authorised to trespass if they obstruct any boats who are wanting to launch at Taipā and arrest if the protesters actions are unsafe for the community. That’s as much as the police are legally allowed to do.
    
    Facebook
    
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    January 27, 2024 10:19am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      The Police will be branded “Racist” if they arrest protesters.
      Orders from the higher ups will have already been given.
      
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      January 27, 2024 10:34am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Ring 111 and tell them they are pro Israel .
        They’ll be banged up within the hour.
        
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        January 27, 2024 11:34am
    - kiwikidsnz
      
      Its a lot simpler than that
      https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM328261.html#:~:text=42%20Preventing%20breach%20of%20the%20peace,-(1)&text=provided%20that%20the%20person%20interfering,from%20its%20continuance%20or%20renewal.
      
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      January 27, 2024 10:57am
    - Ghost
      
      Latest update on that community page, police are turning people away and advising them to use other ramps.
      
      It’s a fun page to read. Looks like a little iwi fight in one post, appears someone turned up to the protest driving their doc car.
      
      Another person offering kfc to use the ramp
      
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      January 27, 2024 11:07am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        So run out of petrol the becomes a Police problem for false.
        Oh never mind. Cuddles Coster has the sorted right?
        
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        January 27, 2024 6:15pm
    - Southern Raider
      
      If that was the case Police would have removed them by now as they aren’t simply protesting, they are actively blocking the public from access public land
      
      All the Police have done in this sorry episode is reinforce Māori radicals are above the law and can do whatever they like as they are untouchable
      
      Imagine what would happen if this was a group of white, Asian or Indian protesters
      
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      January 27, 2024 11:28am
      - Matt Long
        
        It’s like the Gaza protests, police policy is to let the protesters do what they like and arrest anyone who opposes them for disturbing the peace.
        
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        January 27, 2024 12:25pm
    - kowtow
      
      Hmmm.
      
      Even if council own the roads that these people are obstructing then if someone turns up and wants to use the road and if the obstruction is likely or does lead to the public getting angry and possibly trying to run the blockade then I’d suggest that blocking of the road is a breach of the peace and police can act irrespective of council’s ownership.
      
      imho.
      
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      January 27, 2024 12:55pm
kiwikidsnz

Tremain eloquently sums up the mood of the nation again
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/tremain-thursday-s-cartoon
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January 27, 2024 8:50am
mandk

When is the ICJ going to hear the case against the government of Gaza for the attack it launched on Isreali civilians on 7/10/2023?

… crickets …
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January 27, 2024 8:56am
- Drone
  
  Never mnadk, they’re still finalising the judgement on Israel..
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:34am
- Che Guava
  
  Gaza is an illegally occupied territory, and an occupied population is entitled to use force against it’s occupiers.
  
  Moreover, being the occupier to begin with, Israel cannot then claim “self-defence” to justify the force it uses against Gazans.
  
  https://jacobin.com/2021/05/israel-palestine-right-to-self-defense-justification-for-war-article-51-un-charter
  
  “But today Israel uses self-defense as its key rhetorical tool for war. By invoking self-defense, Israel changes the conversation from its colonial crimes against the Palestinians to the injuries it has itself incurred as a result. Yet it is precisely because Israel is denying Palestinians their human rights, including the right of self-determination, that it cannot claim self-defense as a legal justification for the use of force. In fact, Israel’s conduct is clearly part of a state-driven occupation project for which it is criminally liable.
  
  There are two main reasons why Israel’s self-defense premise is flawed.
  
  First, self-defense does not apply to an occupying state’s wars against those it occupies — it is not relevant for Israel in relation to the Palestinians.
  
  Second, what Israel does in Gaza violates all known conditions for self-defense, especially the necessity of war when peace is easily available, discrimination between soldiers and civilians, and the proportionality of harm inflicted in achieving military aims.
  
  As a justification for war, self-defense is based on article 51 of the UN Charter, which specifies: “Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.”
  
  Barring Security Council authorization, this is the only legal justification for the use of force by states against other states. No mention is made of nonstate actors here. Nor is the analogy between individual and state rights that informs it conceptually unproblematic: states do not have the rights of individuals.”
  
  https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/10/commission-inquiry-finds-israeli-occupation-unlawful-under-international-law
  
  “There are reasonable grounds to conclude that the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory is now unlawful under international law due to its permanence and the Israeli Government’s de-facto annexation policies,”
  
  “The 28-page report focuses on the sustenance and advancement of the settlement enterprise, including statements made by Israeli officials indicating the intent to maintain permanent control over the land in violation of international law. The Commission concludes that by continuing to occupy the territory by force, Israel incurs international responsibilities and remains accountable for violations of the rights of the Palestinians individually and as a people.
  
  “By ignoring international law in establishing or facilitating the establishment of settlements, and directly or indirectly transferring Israeli civilians into these settlements, successive Israel governments have set facts on the ground to ensure permanent Israeli control in the West Bank”, Ms. Pillay stated.”
  
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  January 27, 2024 11:12am
  - Southern Raider
    
    It’s not occupied. Israel left in 2005 and even walked away from warehouses, houses and glasshouses. Gazian’s destroyed them all and then started waging a proxy war
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:29am
    - Che Guava
      
      “It’s not occupied. Israel left in 2005…”
      
      They certainly came back in 2023 and are occupying it for the foreseeable future. By implication from your remark, they were illegally occupying it until they “left” in 2005.
      
      Besides, I think it’s also denying reality to say that the practical effect of a total blockade, controlling all checkpoints in and out of Gaza, and determining what goods do and don’t enter Gaza doesn’t amount to an occupation.
      
      Beyond this, the Jewish settlements in the West Bank are all illegal under international law.
      
      When the conditions imposed by Israel’s policies result in easily foreseeable violent blow-back, it’s pretty rich to claim self-defence.
      
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      January 27, 2024 12:25pm
      - cmm
        
        It has always been within the rules of law to blockade an enemy or invade them to strike their military capability.
        
        The West bank stuff is an entirely different issue from Gaza so conflating them does not help support your argument about Gaza.
        
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        January 27, 2024 8:16pm
    - Jake Dee
      
      We’ve been through all this before and at considerable length.
      Israel never ‘left” Gaza. it (along with Egypt) maintained complete control of all access in and out of Gaza. Blocking all transit by sea and air and tightly restricting all transit by land. The launched frequent attacks into Gaza using whatever methods they saw fit and anytime they liked.
      None of that can be (honestly) denied.
      
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      January 27, 2024 10:54pm
  - mandk
    
    I wonder why you didn’t answer the question.
    
    No point in asking.
    
    Everyone knows why.
    
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    January 27, 2024 1:46pm
Jack5

Joel Maxwell, a part-Maori who works out biracial angst on Stuff, today throws his teddy bear right out of the cot. In fact right out of the newspaper window.

Maxwell, breaking in and out of the Maori language he learned as an adult, seems to be willing violent humiliation of Winston Peters and David Seymour at the Waitangi function.

Why the fuck would non-Maori go to Waitangi to provide some sort of humiliation fun for activists? Sex tools and mud thrown in politicians’ faces, and now hints of more serious violence.

Why must Waitangi Treaty be marked as a ritual humiliation for the non-Maori majority?

Helen Clark had the right idea. Mark the day with a quiet ceremony elsewhere. Take the naval honour guard away, too. WTF is the use of it if it can’t protect our elected politicians?

The sort of crap Stuff subscribers get for their money:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/te-ao-maori/350158670/e-pai-ana-te-wera-o-te-turama-arotahi-ki-enei-kaitorangapu
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January 27, 2024 9:07am
- Inandout
  
  Jack, now the American MSM is laying off hundreds of staff our local legacy media must surely follow suit. This Maxwell guy scratched away for years on local freebie newspapers and if I recall was not the most energetic of reporters. His inane Stuff contributions will no doubt hasten the demise of his employer.
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:48am
  - Damocles11
    
    You left out the ‘s’ in insane.
    
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    January 27, 2024 2:33pm
- David Garrett
  
  Jack: I didn’t agree with much that Clark did, but refusing to go to Waitangi to be abused and possibly assaulted was absolutely the right call.
  
  If Luxon gets mud/eggs/dildos thrown at him, I hope he has the guts to refuse to go next year.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:13am
  - imalwaysright
    
    D.G
    
    Luxon is a mug for going to Waitangi.
    The activists have planned their disruptions and the ‘media’ have written their headlines.
    All they need now is to get him on camera.
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:39am
- Damocles11
  
  Waitangi Day is just a day of humiliation and angst for all of us, nothing but division, chest beating, abuse, & the customary spectacle of the media feasting upon this nations anguish.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:22am
  - julesnzuk
    
    I think the lack of civic pride in Waitangi Day is sad. Not sure how we have allowed what should be a national day of celebration (given that the Treaty was hugely progressive for its time) to be hijacked by extremists and their useful idiot riff raff. Why do they get to own Waitangi Day?
    
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    January 28, 2024 1:08am
- rockape
  
  I can never understand Maori wanting to celebrate effectively giving their country up. Bit like the Germans celebrating ,” Battle of Britain” day.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:37am
  - Damocles11
    
    They don’t celebrate it as far as I’m concerned, it’s a day to hurl dung at ‘pakeha’.
    
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    January 27, 2024 10:50am
  - virtualmark
    
    And yet the clear evidence in front of all our eyes is that Maori choose to live “Western” lives, not Maori ones.
    
    I don’t see modern Maori wearing traditional clothing, living in tribal groups in traditional whares, eating traditional foods and so on. I do see them living as nuclear families with Western clothes, houses, cars, food etc.
    
    So maybe they voluntarily made a contract with the Westerners because they could see that would give them a better life?
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:13am
    - Damocles11
      
      They seem to have jettisoned the cannibalism as well, but the infanticide is taking a bit longer to get rid of.
      
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      January 27, 2024 2:36pm
  - julesnzuk
    
    They didn’t have a “country” to give up. You’re making the mistake of looking at it through a contemporary lens.
    
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    January 28, 2024 1:04am
I remember when

New Zealand’s Covid cases are trending downwards.
So once again, as with every outbreak, the present dominant strain is imploding.
It will, of course, be replaced by another briefly dominant type.
What are the odds of the manufacturers producing the right vaccine?
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January 27, 2024 9:13am
- ClanMcleod
  
  Slim, but it’s still experimental mRNA technology. Anyone contemplating taking it is playing Russian roulette.
  No proof of causation yet, but more than enough alarming signals with rises in cancers, heart issues, clots, tumours and in particular, increased all cause mortality in young people.
  
  In years to come, people will look back in disbelief at the actions of health authorities and government.
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:23am
- Keith White
  
  They don’t need to make the right vaccine.
  
  They only need the taxpayers to fund whatever vaccine they package, to make a profit.
  
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  January 27, 2024 9:41am
I remember when

Is the Kiri Allan court case becoming an example of the Americanisation of our legal system.
Should a lawyer have allowed themselves to be interviewed as Kiri Allan was, before the her case has been heard.
As Kiri said she asked herself during the interview “what the heck was she doing here?”
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January 27, 2024 9:20am
- thirteenstars
  
  How is that an example of “Americanisation”?
  
  She’s the defendant so I think she’s allowed to say what the heck she likes, and so is her lawyer.
  
  The judge or jury will decide on the facts presented in court.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:27am
I remember when

Does Australia Day show the difficulty with a National Day.
If Australia is celebrating what it has become as a country, surely the arrival of the Europeans was the correct starting point.
Naturally, the indigenous people will have different opinions, but no date they can point to that is as appropriate.
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January 27, 2024 9:28am
- Damocles11
  
  Leftists stirring up as much societal division as they can, all through the Western world.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:23am
oldpark

What an indictment of a section of the holier than thou so called United Nations .Go Figure.

US Pauses UNRWA Funding Over Claims 12 Workers Involved in Oct. 7 Attack
US Pauses UNRWA Funding Over Claims 12 Workers Involved in Oct. 7 Attack
An employee of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees UNRWA gives a shot of the Sputnik V Covid-19 vaccine at UNRWA’s in the southern Gaza Strip in 2021. (Abed Rahim Khatib/Dreamstime.com)
Friday, 26 January 2024 10:52 AM EST

The United States is troubled by allegations that 12 UNRWA employees may have been involved in the Oct. 7 Hamas attack on Israel and has temporarily paused funding, the State Department said on Friday.

“The Department of State has temporarily paused additional funding for UNRWA while we review these allegations and the steps the United Nations is taking to address them,” spokesperson Matthew Miller said.

© 2024 Thomson/Reuters.
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January 27, 2024 9:41am
Burtland

Seems the UN’s UNRWA had staff actively involved in Hamas’ 7 Oct slaughter …

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68104203

The UN has failed massively under Guterres who is “horrified by this news” – time he was tossed out.
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January 27, 2024 9:55am
- Matt Long
  
  I think the correct quote is Guterres is horrified this was made public. It’s been well documented that UNRWA has been a sponsor of terror for a long time.
  
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  January 27, 2024 12:32pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Luxon waking up and giving Seymour more responsibility?

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/luxon-gives-seymour-new-role-managing-treaty-principles-bill/ar-BB1hhijj?
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January 27, 2024 10:06am
- Inandout
  
  SO, either that or letting Seymour take the flak while he can remain aloof and inclusive.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:27am
  - David Garrett
    
    Inand: Not so much “letting Seymour take the flak”, but further distancing the Nats from the proposed Bill. See my comment below.
    
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    January 27, 2024 10:49am
- Souvlaki
  
  An excellent move.
  Surely even the dimmest of people can see, if the country refuses to accept truly equal rights for us all, regardless of ancestry…the long term future of NZ is fucked irrevocably. The movers & shakers, real brains, will simply piss off to where they’re wanted & needed. NZ will then inevitably drift towards 3rd world status….the exact opposite of what honest Maori want, I suspect ! If they’re ‘in trouble now’…….the future looks infinitely grimmer for THEM under Tuku Morgan et als ‘dream’ .
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:39am
- David Garrett
  
  Steve O: NO it’s the absolute opposite! In short, Luxon is further distancing himself from Seymour’s proposed Bill. Before this “promotion”, a Nat minister – Goldsmith – had the formal responsibility for introducing the planned Bill and supposedly shepherding it through Parliament (although Luxon has made it clear that they won’t support it past the Select Committee).
  
  The Nats tried the very same thing with the three strikes Bill 14 years ago: suggesting that Rodney be the Minister responsible for it. He was too smart to fall for that, and the 3S Bill became a part of National’s Sentencing and Parole Reform Bill.
  
  I don’t know who’s advising Seymour on parliamentary tactics, but they are not doing much of a job. Or Seymour is refusing to listen, which is entirely possible.
  
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  January 27, 2024 10:46am
  - bennerg
    
    I’d suggest Seymour is aware of this, and given the massive support for such a move, will only make him stand out from the rest of the coalition. A long term strategy on his part.
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:14am
    - David Garrett
      
      Damocles: All correct… and let’s not forget, the chiefs repeated their allegiance to the British Crown at the Kohimarama conference in 1860.
      
      Sadly grievous wrongs were soon visited upon various iwi in what are now correctly called “The Land Wars”, because that is exactly what they were about – settler grabbing land Maori did not want to sell,
      
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      January 27, 2024 11:28am
    - David Garrett
      
      bennerg: Maybe…but unlike the 2008 Confidence and Supply agreement in which the Nats committed to, after Select Committee stage, giving the 3S Bill “full and fair consideration”, all Seymour has managed to secure is the Nat’s support at first reading. They have made it very very clear that they will not support it beyond that stage.
      
      It would be a major political loss for the Nats if Luxon announced that after all, they were going to support it through second reading and beyond. So Seymour faces a much bigger challenge than I did with 3S 14 years ago – but that is his challenge: to convince the Nats that there is massive public support for his Bill, which therefore justifies him – Luxon – saying “We made the wrong call; we are going to support the Bill further”
      
      This will be by far Seymour’s major challenge of his political career thus far – far more so than getting the Assisted Dying legislation through parliament – and that was a pretty big challenge.
      
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      January 27, 2024 11:35am
    - Colville
      
      bennerg.
      Agree.
      Seymour sees its as a way to distance ACT from the extremely wet Nats.
      Maybe National wont have a choice but to support it next time around??
      
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      January 27, 2024 11:41am
      - Matt Long
        
        If the Red Blues prevent it from going forward they’ll shift support to Act, and a Citizen Initiated Referendum could be passed by a large majority before or at the next election. (To be ignored by the government as usual.)
        I’m not sure whether Act planned to make their referendum binding or not.
        
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        January 27, 2024 12:38pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Luxon will wake up as soon as he is challenged, DG.
    
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    January 27, 2024 6:18pm
Jack5

Culture war …

Florida is clamping down on “liberal” requirements in core courses at its state universities, by ending a compulsory requirement for sociology study.

The Florida Board of Governors has also stopped state and federal funding for diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) programmes.

Sociology courses will remain available but will not be required. The board first removed principles of sociology from general education core course options on November 9 before voting for final approval this week.

The board approved a regulation prohibiting Florida universities from using state or federal funds to support campus activities that advocate DEI or “political or social activism.”

The regulation defines social activism as an activity organised to change a government policy or achieve a social issue.
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January 27, 2024 10:12am
NeverMindTheBollocks

Thinking about the salary for policy analysts. The Left tell us that we have to increase their salaries to get good people. But, the only buyer for policy analysts is the government. If the government decided to cut their salaries by 10%, what are they going to do? Get a real job? Don’t make me laugh. They’ll just suck it up.

Do it, Nicola!
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January 27, 2024 10:12am
NeverMindTheBollocks

Has anyone heard from Biscuit today? I’m worried about him.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/39392653/liverpool-boss-jurgen-klopp-leave-end-season
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January 27, 2024 10:28am
- Biscuit
  
  Sad news, NMTB, but I – and, hopefully, Jürgen – will get through it all!
  
  (Nice – and novel! – that Klopp has got his ‘I am burned out’ story into the public domain before, oh, getting stopped for careless driving and/or uplifting items from high-end boutiques, eh?)
  
  Of more concern to me was the news earlier this week that a decent-sized earthquake had struck Hawkes Bay and that some of said Bay’s land is now 20 cm closer to Upper Hutt than before.
  I am, fearfully, gazing at the Remutaka Hills every now and half-expecting to see pdm and his ilk in a ‘Beverley Hillbillies’ style Oldsmobile intent on taking over my back lawn…
  
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  January 27, 2024 12:16pm
Vinicius

Joe Biden has allowed his administration to be hijacked by the climate change pressure groups again.

The Associated Press reports:

“Biden delays consideration of new natural gas export terminals, citing climate risk”.

• The election year decision by President Joe Biden aligns with environmentalists who fear the huge increase in exports, in the form of liquefied natural gas, or LNG, is locking in potentially catastrophic planet-warming emissions.

https://apnews.com/article/lng-exports-biden-europe-climate-russia-3c2bfd853c0d53531a677b142b009dbc
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January 27, 2024 10:40am
- virtualmark
  
  This is a poor decision economically, politically and for the environment. Hard to see what Biden’s doing here other than perhaps throwing the Green-wing of his party a bone.
  
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  January 27, 2024 11:15am
Ghost

I guess he could start a go fund me

Donald Trump has been ordered to pay US$83.3 million (NZ$136 million) to columnist and rape accuser E. Jean Carroll.

The former president, 77, had been found liable for defaming the journalist by lying about sexually assaulting her in a Bergdorf Goodman dressing room in the 1990s. He was facing up to US$24 million total in damages.

The New York jury returned with a verdict less than three hours after beginning deliberations.

Trump must pay $7.3 million for “emotional harm”, another $11m for “reputational damages” and $65m for punitive damages.

Article
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January 27, 2024 11:00am
- David Garrett
  
  Ghost: He will of course be appealing that as far as the US system permits him.
  
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  January 27, 2024 11:06am
  - virtualmark
    
    David,
    
    My understanding is that because this case was purely to consider whether Trump defamed her and then arrive at a value for damages (*) Trump can only appeal on grounds of whether the amount of damages is unreasonable.
    
    (* The first trial decided on the question of whether Trump sexually assaulted Carroll or not, and the jury decided he did. AFAIK Trump hasn’t appealed that verdict, just whined about it publicly which then led to this subsequent defamation trial)
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:25am
    - David Garrett
      
      virtual: Thanks for that. But as I said, he will most definitely appeal whatever he can as far as he can.
      
      Looks very like the US is about to have a President who a jury has found HAS “grabbed [the complainant] by the pussy” rather than just talking about doing so, which he admitted to in the past.
      
      That said, that level of damages is utterly ludicrous for something that clearly didn’t bother the woman until Trump became President.
      
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      January 27, 2024 11:54am
      - Ghost
        
        Amazing huh. The two possible people that could be president. Shit America how did you end up like this
        
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        January 27, 2024 12:03pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        You are correct David.
        VM doesn’t know- as usual.
        ‘WASHINGTON, May 11 (Reuters) – Former U.S. President Donald Trump on Thursday appealed a New York jury’s verdict in a civil case that he sexually abused and defamed writer E. Jean Carroll.’
        https://www.reuters.com/legal/trump-files-notice-appeal-lawsuit-brought-by-e-jean-carroll-2023-05-11/
        
        This will go the way of what happened to Stormy Daniels. She ended up owing Trump money.
        Carroll- the lying fantasist, is of course having everything funded by a Democrat Donor.
        I think Trump will end up Bankrupting her.
        
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        January 27, 2024 1:17pm
      - virtualmark
        
        Sigh.
        
        I did say that as far as I knew Trump hadn’t appealed the original case. As you point out, he has. I wasn’t aware of that.
        
        It will be interesting to see how that appeal goes. I can’t find any info on when it will be heard, or on what grounds Trump is appealing. But I’d be sure any half-qualified lawyer would be telling Trump to shut up about Carroll and never mention or refer to her again.
        
        Meanwhile it’s likely that within the next week or so there’ll be a verdict in the NY AG case with the expectation of damages in the range of $100m-$300m and Trump being banned from the real estate industry in NY state.
        
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        January 27, 2024 1:41pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        [Mod – deleted], you said “AFAIK Trump hasn’t appealed that verdict”
        To which I replied “VM doesnt know- as usual”
        So you didnt know
        And Trump will appeal that NY case and win the Appeal.
        There is no justification for the charges at
        [Mod – debate without the personal abuse]
        
        LOL
        
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        January 27, 2024 3:04pm
- virtualmark
  
  Trump recently testified in the NY AG trial that he has US$400m of cash on hand. So hard to see how he could get out of this damages payment (well, other than inviting a perjury charge).
  
  And given that it’s also hard to see how an appeals court could rule that the damages charge is unreasonable.
  
  He’s fu(ked.
  
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  January 27, 2024 11:16am
  - All_on_Red
    
    When the assault conviction is inevitably reversed then there is no defamation and Carroll will then have a major problem.
    And he doesn’t have to pay whilst the Appeal is in progress.
    I hear Stormy Daniels is now reduced trying to scratch out a living showing her saggy tits and butthole now-LOL
    
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    January 27, 2024 1:21pm
    - virtualmark
      
      “inevitably reversed” is a bold claim.
      
      I realise you desperately want it to be reversed, because that’s nicer than learning your hero really is a sex offender. But if it’s such a lay-down misere that the appeal will “inevitably” be successful why didn’t Trump’s lawyers use whatever argument that rests on in the original case? And why did Joe Tacopina (Trump’s lawyer) quit these cases a few weeks ago?
      
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      January 27, 2024 1:45pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        There is NO evidence he did it or was even there.
        Its quite shocking that you display absolutely zero objectivity.
        If your son (if you have one) was convicted on such a basis, as Nothing Left details, then you would be crying to the heavens.
        But your animus towards Trump just allows you justify it.[Mod – debate without the personal abuse]
        
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        January 27, 2024 3:02pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        Oh and stop lying and saying he’s my hero.
        I have criticised him many times.
        You really need to get a grip on yourself as your hatred for Trump is clearly causing you to believe anything bad which he accused of.
        Your behaviour is delusional.
        I will defend anyone where I see a situation which is unjust.
        
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        January 27, 2024 3:11pm
      - virtualmark
        
        Red, you seem upset.
        
        I asked two pragmatic questions:
        1) if Trumps case is so strong that it’s inevitable the verdict will be reversed on appeal then why didn’t his lawyers present that strong case at the original trial?
        2) if Trump’s case is so strong that an appeal will be successful then why did his lead lawyer on this case quit a week ago, rather than have his Perry Mason moment at the appeal?
        
        All I’m trying to do is caution you that I don’t see any appeal here as inevitably being successful.
        
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        January 27, 2024 3:30pm
      - Its only I
        
        VM, you have walked into the cults inner sanctum and suggest their Jesus 2.0 may be a rapist.
        
        What your inadvertently doing is suggesting the Truth Denying Sycophants are more progressive than the crazy US Democrats…How so you may ask…well Jesus 1.0 was a humble carpenter, Jesus 2.0 is a Frat boy in makeup who rapes women, steals money from charities, commits fraud, buys hookers and can’t tell the truth even if it fixed all of his problems, doesnt know a single word from any version of a bible and brags about it..If that’s not progressive then WTF is?
        
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        January 27, 2024 3:58pm
- virtualmark
  
  I won’t be surprised though if Trump defames her again within the next 24 hours.
  
  The man has the impulse control of a blowfly at a barbeque.
  
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  January 27, 2024 11:19am
  - David Garrett
    
    Virtual: The man has the impulse control of a blowfly at a barbeque
    
    I do like that!
    
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    January 27, 2024 11:38am
    - virtualmark
      
      To be fair I stole it off someone else, because I liked it too.
      
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      January 27, 2024 11:52am
- NothingLeft
  
  Guilty of being orange man bad in an extremely partisan jurisdiction. A manifestly unjust verdict, with no corroborating evidence, just her unsupported and literally fantastic say-so. The list of points that make it extremely unlikely is long. Among them:
  -nearly 30 years ago, when complainant was a far-past-her-prime 52
  -unknown date somewhere in 1994-1996 range (how can you defend without knowing the date?)
  -‘rape’ in dressing room of a department store by a well known celebrity (Trump), but no staff remember this unusual/memorable activity.
  -no mention to anyone until after he was president, like the recent Brett Kavanaugh rape accusation politically motivated take-down effort
  -mirrors plot of a 2012 episode of law and order SVU
  -dress she claims she was wearing wasn’t even made until after she originally claimed the rape happened (1994).
  
  After so much time there is simply no possible evidence based defense that can be offered to such an unsupported and unverifiable claim, and yet a conviction and enormous fine was handed down. Note that this was not a criminal conviction – which would of course never happen due to all these factors, but a civil case, setting dangerous precedent for money-grubbing false accusations.
  
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  January 27, 2024 12:33pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    It’s sad that people like you want to continue the defamation of a victim of sexual assault.
    
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    January 27, 2024 12:54pm
  - virtualmark
    
    And yet a jury of his peers found that on the balance of probabilities Trump had indeed done it.
    
    I know, I know, hard to believe that a guy who’s on tape saying you can just grab them by the pussy grabbed someone by the pussy. And not just one, multiple women testified to Trump grabbing them too.
    
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    January 27, 2024 1:14pm
    - Inandout
      
      virt, yet his pussy crime pales when put beside the Love Island lot, the gaggle of pedos and weirdos. Because Trump hasn’t appeared on the visitors’ list the diversion into civil mtters and memory recall must be ramped up.
      
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      January 27, 2024 2:08pm
    - NothingLeft
      
      And yet a jury of ~~his peers~~ New York Democrats found that ~~on the balance of probabilities Trump had indeed done it~~ Orange Man Bad.
      
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      January 27, 2024 2:30pm
    - All_on_Red
      
      ‘balance of probabilities’ – snigger
      No evidence required huh
      Orange Man bad -reeeeee
      
      The case will be reversed on Appeal
      
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      January 27, 2024 2:59pm
      - Vory v zakone
        
        Yep the appeal 💥 What will happen when the subpoenaed emails that she deleted (she admitted in court that she deleted them) are recovered and used?Plus the story about the dress she was ‘wearing’ at the time of the incident and the claims by her friends that Carroll was a drug addict back then.
        AOR it’s another case of Trump using himself as bait. His exposures over the next few months will be fantastic 😎
        #thebestisyettocome
        
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        January 27, 2024 7:27pm
nathie

Been thinking about Labour and Hipkins’ appearance at Ratana where he said “Labour failed to bring non-Maori along with them”.

Again, instead of examining this statement and giving it plenty of air/print time scrutiny (eg the pros and cons/examine both sides of the arguement etc), the MSM have dismissed it. Gone. As if Hipkins never said it. MSM don’t want to go there (and give the “other side” coverage).

But that’s not what I have really been thinking about. What it was is that Labour only exist (support wise) because of the sympathetic leftist MSM. They give Labour a false sense of security. That their policies are what NZ need and that there is widespread support for them.

That’s both Labour and the MSM’s fallacy.

So Labour blunder on and can’t figure out why their support is dropping (and won’t recover under this lot). But Labour don’t cares because the MSM tells them they love them and to carry on.

More people voted for change (and recent polls still support this). They don’t want Labour’s agenda nor the MSM’s agenda. Labour and the leftist MSM are wrong.

When one is wrong they need to accept or recognise this and make change. Are Labour and the MSM up to this?
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January 27, 2024 11:06am
- virtualmark
  
  Or, maybe Chippie it’s that Maori are now bumping up against the limits of non-Maori tolerance?
  
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  January 27, 2024 11:18am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Labour thought they had the Maori vote for eva.
  
  Labour couldn’t see that the support from the Ratana faithful was no longer enough to prop up their Maori seats.
  
  Labour have been outmanouevered by Te Pati Maori.
  
  I suspect the appeal of Ratana has been overtaken by the the Pai Mārire revival (being led by Waikato-Tainui )
  
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/teahikaa/audio/201842650/it's-something-to-revive-the-tikanga-of-pai-marire
  
  Labour lost the pakeha working class ages ago.
  Labour now seems to be a loose collection of union stooges and middle-class academics and bureaucrats. .
  
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  January 27, 2024 2:36pm
  - Damocles11
    
    Maori have always been about “what have you done for us lately?” – remember that they have jumped to NZ First and the Maori Party with their electorate vote before. This latest loss of the electorate seats by Labour is just a repeat of history. If they think they can get more out of some newcomer, they are off like a shot.
    
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    January 27, 2024 3:57pm
  - JimBobJoe
    
    Pai Marire… goodness and peace.
    
    Just like Islam claiming to be the religion of Peace, Pai Marire fundamentalists were the Hauhau. A bunch of murderous thugs who killed hundreds of Maori as well as numerous Europeans – women, children as well as men.
    
    IF this is what the Kingitanga are seeking to emulate then NZ is in for some very unsettled times.
    
    You National Party blog monitors need to have a really good look at TPM, who they are fronting for and what fringe, violent elements are attached to them. All the shouting White Supremacists is proving a smokescreen for some quite nasty Maori radicals to hide their intent behind…
    
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    January 27, 2024 7:07pm
Tomtoddy

https://twitter.com/TheFirstonTV/status/1750603779886477497

Poor old Joe. Lost his marbles. Actually rather funny if he didn’t have the code for the big bang.
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January 27, 2024 11:18am
- Inandout
  
  Tom, this is elder abuse on display. That wife of his should be made to answer.
  
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  January 27, 2024 12:13pm
- MCōs
  
  It may be a genuine clip, but then again it’s more likely it isn’t
  
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  January 27, 2024 1:27pm
  - Inandout
    
    MC, you are so brainwashed by the dying US media. If you desire go onto any YouTube video of Biden speaking and moving, it is sad.
    
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    January 27, 2024 2:11pm
  - Ghost
    
    It’s genuine, but it’s nothing we don’t know, he’s not fully home
    
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    January 27, 2024 2:54pm
  - virtualmark
    
    If you go to https://www.meidastouch.com/news/fox-plays-edited-clip-to-spread-lies-about-biden-speech-in-wisconsin they have both the short clip Fox News edited (that TomToddy posted a link to) and also the full video. The Fox News edit is (unsurprisingly) misleading.
    
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    January 27, 2024 3:25pm
    - MCōs
      
      Well, fancy that
      
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      January 27, 2024 4:03pm
- sungsamning
  
  The football Joe thinks he has only has a code that is the speed dial number for the local Baskin Robbins.
  
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  January 27, 2024 5:52pm
Waipuk

Own nothing – Be happy

https://youtu.be/InAKOZdsJw0?si=ZdBSBrjyHXL6f52t
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January 27, 2024 11:26am
Bernard Black

I was browsing Netflix the other night when I came across a documentary film called Mr Organ by investigative journalist David Farrier who works for The Spinoff.
Farrier seems to style himself as NZs own Louis Theroux, only without Louis intelligence and ability to have a shave in the morning.
It all centred around Michael Organ, convicted boat thief and notorious wheel clamper.

Shot over 5 years it included many interviews with Organ.
Farrier managed to dig up some old flatmates to bad mouth Organ (were they paid for the interviews?) And doorstepped some of Organs relatives who had absolutely nothing to say.
He also tried very hard to portray Organ as some sort of monster who harrased someone in to committing suicide, interviewing Phil Goff in the process.

All I can conclude from this tedious excuse for a documentary is that Michael Organ is rather narcissistic, a know all, a grifter and a tedious bore, someone you would definitely not want to sit next to at a dinner party.
But a master criminal he is not.
If tempted to watch it don’t bother.
As for Mr Farrier, well thats one way to completely waste 5 years of your life I guess.
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January 27, 2024 12:18pm
jon

What is going on with this Principles of the Treaty select committee? I note Nats will have four members, Labour two and the Greens and TPM one each. No members from Act or NZF who both have more MPs than TPM and yet miss out on representation!
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January 27, 2024 1:18pm
- Damocles11
  
  ‘Luxon scuppers bill, many people unhappy’
  
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  January 27, 2024 2:40pm
Chuck Bird

I wonder if this will affect Trump’s chances.

Donald Trump ordered to pay $136 million to rape accuser E Jean Carroll

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/donald-trump-walks-out-on-lawyers-closing-at-defamation-trial-before-jury-begins-deliberations/ILFH5V67URDIRPK4WXOENVWDIA/
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January 27, 2024 1:42pm
- peterwn
  
  Pocket money!
  
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  January 27, 2024 1:59pm
- greybeard
  
  That statement would be better if there was a hyphen between “rape” and “accuser”.
  Big difference between
  “Donald Trump ordered to pay $136 million to rape accuser E Jean Carroll” and
  “Donald Trump ordered to pay $136 million to rape-accuser E Jean Carroll”.
  
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  January 27, 2024 2:37pm
- All_on_Red
  
  The injustice of it probably increases his support
  
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  January 27, 2024 3:26pm
  - Couchpotatoe
    
    He hires the best looking defence attorneys.
    
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    January 28, 2024 1:32pm
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hArDAjfSSa0
Wokesters Slightly Concerned About Collapse of MSM.
It looks like record numbers of ‘journalists’ will be enrolling in coding courses this year too. Couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of people.
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January 27, 2024 1:51pm
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B-AM9jXCkY
Kari Lake Reveals Second Bribery Attempt.
Arizona Republican Senate Candidate Kari Lake spoke out on a second allegation of bribery against her — this time from a very wealthy supporter with deep pockets and deeper ties. While speaking directly to supporters last night on a live-stream, after Arizona GOP Chairman Jeff DeWit was captured on leaked audio appearing to bribe Lake and resigned from his position, Kari Lake revealed the story of ANOTHER instance in which she was offered money to make political strategy changes.
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January 27, 2024 1:52pm
- kevn
  
  Sun… They are prepared to eat anyone who isn’t anti Trump.
  
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  January 27, 2024 2:12pm
thirteenstars

Latest from the Taxpayers’ Union about the document leaks:

…unlike the US – where a new administration can replace/appoint most of the leaders of government agencies – New Zealand has a politically neutral public service.

Or so they claim…

Before Christmas, we saw the leaks about the so-called ‘fair pay’ agreement changes and, more recently, the Treaty Principles Bill – clearly aimed to undermine policies that were explicitly campaigned on by the parties making up the new Government.

This week it was Casey Costello’s turn. Radio NZ was clutching its pearls after it obtained a document that purported to show that the new Associate Minister of Health, Casey Costello (our former chair), had asked officials for advice on freezing tobacco excise.

It looks to be a carefully calculated sting operation by the bureaucrats.

In fact, we think the new Government has a real problem on its hands: The professionalism (or lack thereof) by the bureaucrats across dozens of government agencies risks undermining the decision-making process and having a chilling effect on constructive communication and the need for Cabinet government to be based on well-informed decision making.

This behaviour from some officials is nothing more than a political hit-job seeking to make it harder for the Government to unwind the past six years of wasteful, bureaucratic and ineffective policy.

Nicola Willis has a big decision to make when it comes to appointing the new Public Service Commissioner in just a few months. We need someone willing to tackle The Blob head on. And the names reportedly being considered do not inspire confidence.

https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/240127_newsletter

Perhaps a few TDS sufferers will begin to wake up because this is precisely what happened to the Trump Administration for four years as leak after leak occurred, all carefully designed to cause death by a thousand cuts, and for the same ideological reasons. They didn’t do it because they thought Trump was a loudmouth or a narcissist, but because they didn’t like his policies. Rinse and repeat in NZ, 2024.
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January 27, 2024 2:38pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  A ‘sting operation’ huh? The evil public servants lured Costello into asking stupid questions?
  
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  January 27, 2024 4:41pm
  - JimBobJoe
    
    No question is silly Michael. When considering Policy change or new Policy ALL avenues should be explored so a good understanding of the fact base and potential consequences of various approaches are understood.
    
    You expect Public Servants to keep policy advice to the Minister confidential so that policy debate can be had in a free, frank and impartial way (You know in line with Public Service stated ideals), up until the Policy is announced or put out for comment if that is deemed necessary
    
    Frankly, if I was Minister Costello I would read the riot act to the Agency Head or Heads involved, and state that if more leaks occurred I would expect their resignations and the heads of the policy units providing the advice their resignations as well.
    
    Enough resignation cycles will clean out the corrupt political operatives at the Senior Policy Analyst and Manager of Policy Advice teams level.
    
    Having worked in a few agencies off and on over the last couple of decades, I KNOW that Government Agencies are now highly politicised to a level that was not true in the late 1990s.
    
    Political neutrality in the Public Service needs to be brought back in to focus. If the Public Service cant sort themselves out – then a restructure via a rewrite of the appropriate acts and then mass redundanices should be executed. No mercy
    
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    January 27, 2024 7:54pm
    - Ghost
      
      Associate Minister
      
      And although no question is silly she should have been upfront and owned that she asked for that instead of lying about it.
      
      Imagine if this was a labour associate minister or minister who was asked did you request this advice and said no, despite the evidence they did, people here would be in an uproar. But silence.
      
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      January 27, 2024 8:04pm
      - JimBobJoe
        
        Dont care about what she did – if she has lied, then its up to Seymour and Luxon to decide if she stays. The Public Service needs to get neutral quick or they need dealing to.
        
        A good sacking of analysts wouldnt go a miss – particularly at the Senior level as they are warping the whole thing…
        
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        January 27, 2024 8:48pm
      - Ghost
        
        It’s obvious she lied. Great to see you have no problem with an mp lying.
        
        And her boss is Winston
        
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        January 27, 2024 9:46pm
- sungsamning
  
  Agreed, and its easier for Trump to do something about it. He can get rid of them with either a law change, or an EO, and pink slips.
  
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  January 27, 2024 5:58pm
  - MCōs
    
    The president can’t change the law
    
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    January 27, 2024 8:10pm
Ghost

I’m shocked you live so close and didn’t go pick them up yourself

A woman is “perplexed and angry” after discovering she paid $47 for Domino’s to deliver pizza to her house, 3.5 kilometres from the store.

Article
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January 27, 2024 2:53pm
- All_on_Red
  
  How can she say ‘ after discovering’ she paid $47 for delivery.
  The total cost was $117
  She would have had to pay before they even did the order so should have noticed then
  Dont know what Dominos charge but would have thought $11.70 each was a pretty good price.
  Something doesnt seem right
  
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  January 27, 2024 3:22pm
  - greybeard
    
    Jesus!.
    How stupid can people be !
    (a) Pay for having some stranger to make you one or more pizzas
    then (b) pay for some other strangers to deliver this/these pizzas to them !
    At every stage of this transaction there is the possibility of corruption, rip-off, etc.
    Just make your own food items !
    
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    January 27, 2024 5:30pm
    - MCōs
      
      I don’t think there was any problem with the pizzas or the delivery
      It was the failure to comprehend the cost breakdown
      
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      January 27, 2024 8:06pm
bjools

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world-news/350160303/un-workers-sacked-allegations-involvement-hamas-attack-israel-emerge
HHHMMM????
How do we believe anything the UN says about Gaza?
Even the international court quoted this tainted source.
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January 27, 2024 3:03pm
Master Mariner

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/AI-Boom-Could-Slow-US-Clean-Grid-Ambitions.html
Who signed NZ up to Data centres and already stripping limited supply.
Has any one seen the actual contracts suppying clean power ?
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January 27, 2024 3:09pm
kevn

MM… Now, who was ‘in power’ back then? Someone with a desire for virtue signals. Not so hot on details.
“Just sign here…yessir, done big guy”.
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January 27, 2024 4:03pm
- Master Mariner
  
  Yes indeed.
  Have you seen this interview regarding taking out Hostage negotiator in Lebanon ?
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPHmovWe2ts
  
  Alistair Crooke. Fascinating Interview
  
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  January 27, 2024 5:46pm
Ghost

Sad case, and she had insurance but this wasn’t covered.

A New Zealand grandmother’s visit to family in Australia has turned into a nightmare after an infection left her incapacitated and unable to return home.

The family of Sui Manase now faces a bill of up to $100,000 for a repatriation flight from the Australian outback to Auckland.

Article

Go fund me
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January 27, 2024 4:11pm
- Swifty
  
  Thanks – happy to slip her some dough.
  
  2 0
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  January 27, 2024 4:34pm
- JimBobJoe
  
  Why was she not carrying Travel insurance to cover this type of stuff?
  
  1 1
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  January 27, 2024 8:50pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Put the cuckoo back in the clock!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZIWf818nu8
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January 27, 2024 4:19pm
Swifty

“Trans-women are men. Get over it!”

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13011839/I-went-agonising-operation-thought-woman-finally-make-happy-devastating-revelation.html

A good and important contribution to the trans debate. Worth a read – particularly regarding the bullying, abuse and nastiness from the trans lobby. Who needs to resort to that if your arguments are good, sound and compelling?
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January 27, 2024 4:31pm
- Ghost
  
  I don’t believe this person has had the chop yet, guess when their career is over she’ll identify as a guy again
  
  Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas is asking the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) to overturn a policy that would otherwise prevent her from competing in women’s races at elite competitions, the Swiss-based court announced Friday.
  
  Article
  
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  January 27, 2024 4:40pm
Ghost

Mark the date, February 9th someone is going to be unhappy

A note accompanying the U.S. Supreme Court’s schedule for Feb. 8, the day the high court is set to hear the first oral arguments in the case, indicates that it intends to announce written opinions on the very same day.

Article
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January 27, 2024 5:06pm
surfing

Another day, another ram raid…

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/bay-of-plenty-times/news/bay-of-plenty-mall-evacuated-following-brazen-daylight-ram-raid/JZ72QJOZVFFGFGATVR5337VFEY/

Kiri Allen will be upset that the offenders might go to jail, if they’re caught.

Still waiting for National to make changes.
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January 27, 2024 5:55pm
- kevn
  
  surfing… Fog cannons… pfft.
  
  3 1
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  January 27, 2024 6:04pm
- Ghost
  
  Well you have the new ram raid bill that national supported from labour, but other approaches will take longer than the few weeks parliament was operating that they have been government for before the holidays.
  
  https://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2023/0283/latest/whole.html
  
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  January 27, 2024 6:13pm
- Inandout
  
  surf, It makes one wonder whether Mark Mitchell has been hobbled and is reluctant to get tough on any issue.
  
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  January 27, 2024 6:31pm
  - Ghost
    
    No, it makes one wonder who thinks that the mess can be turned around in such little time, most of which has been Xmas holidays
    
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    January 27, 2024 6:39pm

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