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December 12, 2023 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 12 December 2023

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General Debate

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Chuck Bird

Good to see some balance.

PENN RAINE: Follow the money: our institutions for sale

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/penn-raine-follow-the-money-our-institutions-for-sale?postId=8033e974-3882-4e5c-bc64-fc805c212a14&utm_campaign=8f74fbfd-8f21-4ab4-ae9f-52222e38dfea&utm_source=so&utm_medium=mail&utm_content=6e7a007c-37d6-4092-b48e-897593f5dc89&cid=5ad2ad14-ab55-4e15-92b1-7b9538cabd9b
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December 12, 2023 8:04am
- lastmanstanding
  
  Yesterday on ZB Andrew Dickison was blathering on about how mean Nicola Willis is blaming Labour for the blowout with the Interislander Ferry Terminal.
  If the idiot bothered to read the SOE Act he would learn that the Minister is responsible for oversight of the Board to ensure these things dont happen by asking really complicated questions like,
  
  Is the project on budget.
  Is the project fully funded.
  Is the project on time.
  And the most important question, show me the evidence.
  
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  December 12, 2023 8:39am
- trout
  
  Thanks for the link. After the Congressional Inquiry into the response by Ivy League University administrators to antisemiticism the WSJ Editorial Board stood back and published this statement:
  ‘Taking steps against antisemitism won’t address the “deeper rot of anti-American, anti-Western” philosophies, or the DEI policies “that use race, gender and sexuality as political weapons to enforce intellectual conformity, dictate tenure decisions, and punish dissenters,” The worm may be turning.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:51am
  - Agricola
    
    I must say that after a career in daily newspapers I have come to the conclusion that the only major US newspaper worth subscribing to is the WSJ. It’s extraordinary how the Jeff Bezos vanity project Washington Post and the equally obnoxiously partisan NYTimes garner any respect at all. Unlike the NYT, which has inhabited a parallel universe since its hack Walter Duranty won a Pulitzer in the 1930s for praising Stalin’s disastrous agricultural reforms, the WSJ at least tries to steer a course between left and right barminess.
    
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    December 12, 2023 12:17pm
    - sungsamning
      
      The WaPo has cut 240 jobs recently.
      
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      December 12, 2023 7:33pm
Ehlana

For a sweeter start, today is Gingerbread House Day.

Mmmm.
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December 12, 2023 8:04am
- mikenmildagain
  
  It’s also the Pastafarian holiday of Ice Cream Day. Even sweeter.
  
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  December 12, 2023 8:39am
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Because it’s oh so “quirky”?
    
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    December 12, 2023 6:38pm
artemisia

A Tauranga iwi’s application to the Waitangi Tribunal for an urgent hearing is one of the first of many protests by Maori against the new government.

“… chief executive Paora Stanley said in a statement on Monday evening, accusing the government of acting like a “drunken sailor with no concern or idea on the process required to change policy and law”.

I expect Mr Stanley will be requesting an urgent audience with the Prime Minister and the Attorney General to brief them on the correct processes. It’s critical that they are correctly informed. And at the same time Mr Stanley can advise on the correct amount of taxpayer money required to compensate for the terrible policies and laws.
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December 12, 2023 8:04am
- thirteenstars
  
  Let them kick up. Hell, let the Tribunal start making loud noises, hurling itself about and issuing proclamations.
  
  Then perhaps the coalition will realise how deep the rot goes and how big the wrecking ball needs to be.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:52am
  - Paulus
    
    Only goes to show how useless the Waitangi Tribunal is as it has NO powers anyway.
    Should be scrapped asap finally – stupid Lange for it.
    
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    December 12, 2023 11:06am
  - igm
    
    Maybe it will make Luxon realise the need for a referendum on the ToW.
    Not worth the paper it is written on, being interpreted as a easy way of life for a few selected leeches, claiming imagined maori heritage.
    
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    December 12, 2023 3:59pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    I would love to see the far left’s stupid and destructive crap just nuked back to the stone age, so to speak.
    
    However, if that happens, they will just do the same next time they get in.
    
    We have to stop this left/right see-sawing.
    
    Swiss style direct democracy with policy cemented in with a super majority (say at least 75% in favour) would seem to be the way to go to me.
    
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    December 12, 2023 6:42pm
- herb1
  
  Mr Stanley wasn’t so concerned about the process to change policy and law , under the last Government, when it benefited Maori
  
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  December 12, 2023 10:13am
  - Loddenthinks
    
    Of course, it didn’t “benefit Maori” did it? It benefitted a few Maori, very well.
    
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    December 13, 2023 12:07am
- Paulus
  
  Isn’t it Mr. Stanley who is stopping the new Container Wharf extension, for the last 11 Years, in the largest export Port in New Zealand – through his and his Iwi’s silliness.
  And he wonders what people think of them.
  
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  December 12, 2023 11:04am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Stop Co-Governance. Julian Batchelor.
Poor Margaret Mutu is a victim. A dangerous person is radicalising the youth.

https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/how-to-analyse-the-writings-of-activists/

Her item:

https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Margaret-Mutu-The-coalition-agreements-are-a-catalyst-for-Maori-E-Tangata-1.pdf

Analysed:

https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Margaret-Mutu-commentary.pdf
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December 12, 2023 8:06am
Bridgenag

A MUST SEE VIDEO

On the Fruits of Certain Devious Schemes to Police Campus Politics and the Quiet Third Revolution in American Academia
Is “calling for the genocide of Jews” protected speech at elite American universities?

At a 5 December 2023 hearing on antisemitism held by the Education and Workforce Committee of the United States Congress, representative Elise Stefanik grilled the presidents of MIT, Harvard and the University of Pennsylvania on whether their codes of student conduct prohibited “calling for the genocide of Jews.”

https://open.substack.com/pub/eugyppius/p/on-the-fruits-of-certain-devious?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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December 12, 2023 8:09am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Ironically, Stefanik is sympathetic towards the antisemitic ‘great replacement’ conspiracy theory.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:49am
  - waikatosinger
    
    You need a better source of talking points. These are crap.
    
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    December 13, 2023 12:47am
- NothingLeft
  
  University of Pennsylvania president has just resigned.
  Harvard president (diversity hire) has just been caught for plagiarism in her PhD.
  
  Seems shitty behaviour, hypocrisy and abandonment of ethics still occasionally have consequences. Donors have had enough of woke excesses.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:50am
Ehlana

And for those who can remember him, Frank Sinatra was born 12 December 1915.

So put Ol’ Blue Eyes on and Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas.
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December 12, 2023 8:11am
G152

Looking at the hooha going on with the ‘protest’ at the National Museum in Wellington I reckon that the Treaty display should be displayed both in English and the original Maori script.
You know, the alphabet they had before they had an alphabet.
Waiting ………………………
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December 12, 2023 8:12am
- Kiwiguy
  
  Let’s take this a step further.
  Any written record of the Treaty is written using the King’s English – so the alphabet used is clearly a tool of the colonial oppressors. Maori and their activists should stop using it immediately.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:41am
  - Pope Punctilious II
    
    Not sure if I’ve misunderstood your post, but the Maaori language doesn’t use the
    “English” alphabet, because there is no English alphabet. Both Maaori and English use the Latin alphabet.
    
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    December 12, 2023 12:40pm
    - Jack5
      
      There is an English alphabet, of 26 characters, most of them in Latin script, the written basis for most European languages apart from the Slavic family and Greek.
      
      There was no “w” in Latin.
      
      The Maori alphabet, initially conceived by Western missionaries, was based on the English alphabet, but has fewer characters. It now includes a diacritic, the macron.
      
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      December 13, 2023 12:43am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  It is in English. Seems to be the Littlewood Draft. Article One says Maori ceded sovereignty. The protesters say Maori didn’t.
  
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  December 12, 2023 10:54am
  - Unity
    
    No Steve it was an earlier draft and it mentioned Forests and Fisheries which the Maori one didn’t. The Littlewood draft was the final draft and it didn’t mention Forests and Fisheries but did say ‘and all the people’ which the damaged earlier draft didn’t say. Unfortunately the Littlewood draft is not on display!! Why not, one might ask?!
    
    Go to onenzfoundation.co.nz and you will be able to read about our true history. At the moment we are living a great big lie.
    
    [Mod – link fixed]
    
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    December 12, 2023 11:01am
    - Unity
      
      My apologies – I gave an incorrect link. It should be onenzfoundation.co.nz. I urge everyone to access it and learn our true history. We are being duped big time.
      
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      December 12, 2023 1:59pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      That is why I said “seems.”
      If the Te Papa version mentions “forestry and fisheries” it is wrong – a rogue version same as the Jamed Freeman Waitangi Tribunal version.
      This may be if interest Unity. It is 53 minutes of Julian Batchelor/Stop Co-Governance on the formation of the Treaty.
      
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVgY03s6Tqc
      
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      December 12, 2023 2:00pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        James* Freeman.
        
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        December 12, 2023 2:07pm
  - MCōs
    
    The problem was there were two versions of the treaty and the vast majority of the signatories were Māori
    Originally the Treaty was written in English as I understand and lost something in the translation
    No doubt if the Māori version was translated back into English it wouldn’t be the same as the original
    
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    December 12, 2023 11:59am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Wrong. The original was written in Maori and translated to English by Henry Littlewood. The Littlewood Draft as it is known was lost but found in 1989. After that the then Govt put it in Archives NZ and it has not been seen since. Destroyed I would say, because some do not want the Gravy Train stopped.
      Explanation:
      
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVgY03s6Tqc
      Your uptick is from me.
      
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      December 12, 2023 2:04pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        The downticker needs educating.
        
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        December 12, 2023 2:09pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        MCos, partly wrong. Watch the first 10 minutes of that link.
        Henry Littlewood did not do the final English Draft, Hobson and Busby did.
        The English version was given to Littlewood and it was lost until 1989. When found it wad put into Archives NZ never to be seen again.
        I thought Littlewood did the Draft, but he did not. It is titled the Littlewood Draft because it was found in 1989. I was wrong!
        
        Too many
        Henrys!
        
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        December 12, 2023 2:40pm
Simon

When National led govt is replaced by Labo led one, then MSM will reap massive benefits. Hundreds of millions will pour into MSM. This is the motivation that’s drives the MSM narrative. The “headlines” and the narratives are all a form of corruption.
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December 12, 2023 8:16am
Vinicius

Michael Bassett having dig at 1News and their poor journalistic standards and bias.

“As we already know, adjusting to the arrival of new leaders in the Beehive is proving difficult for the Mainstream Media (MSM). Many journalists seem not to have noticed that the public voted for change. ”

And

“The MSM have a challenging time ahead of them. Many of the policies the voters approved on 14 October and which are part of the Coalition’s plans, involve repealing legislation or changing policy directions. Journalists need to come up to speed. The election is now over; many of their personally preferred options were voted down.”

Time to sell TVNZ.

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/michael-bassett-tv-one-journalists-fail-to-notice-there-s-a-new-government
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December 12, 2023 8:16am
- John Loveridge
  
  It’s worth about what Stuff went for last time around. A buck seems fair to me.
  
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  December 12, 2023 10:58am
Clyde

What action will be taken against this group that attacked Te Papa yesterday? Ignoring their blatant destruction of public property it is their stance that the East Polynesians never ceded sovereignty that is at the core. They did, and they did so as they saw it was the only way out of their self-destructive Musket wars. While the PM has made it clear that the Government view is that they govern for all New Zealanders, it is up to walk the walk now with this vile, cancerous minority that won’t accept the Government’s right to govern. How to stop the racial pot-stirring from the comfort of an Auckland University office, from a biased media and hundreds of entrenched troughers on the public teat is the hard one, but I’d suggest that the big majority of this country are sick to the back teeth of this rabble
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December 12, 2023 8:19am
- Vinicius
  
  Some questions:
  1. Does Te Papa have full security in operation, such as CCTV, security staff? If so what were they doing?
  2. Wasn’t this just far to easy?
  3. Did someone in the staff see this and turn a blind eye?
  
  If some white New Zealander’s had painted over the Maori translation there would have been an uproar and outrage from the MSM, Te Pati Maori, Maori radicals, The Greens and Willie Jackson et al.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:44am
  - G152
    
    Setup by and for the left and media propaganda
    
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    December 12, 2023 12:20pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  Again with the ‘East Polynesians’ racism…
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:50am
  - herb1
    
    Interested in how the thought process in your head calculates the term “ east Polynesian “ is racist.
    Is West European racist? South American?
    
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    December 12, 2023 10:18am
    - Clyde
      
      herb1, I don’t think it wise to assume that the milky bar kid actually has thought processes. Its just that the milky bar kid can’t accept that New Zealand was colonised by people that came from East Polynesia. Facts are not something that the milky bar kid likes, but as I’ve said elsewhere, its probably that he/she has come off vital medications. I wonder whether his/her colleagues have noticed this? Maybe at some Government Dept, or at a University? Or even a home for the bewildered?
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:42am
      - David Garrett
        
        Clyde: I was at uni during the Lange-Douglas government.
        
        I well recall an occasion when he spoke at Canterbury – I can’t remember the exact topic, but I do clearly remember him saying “Everyone in New Zealand is an immigrant”
        
        That remark didn’t go down very well back then, and of course it is tantamount to heresy now.
        
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        December 12, 2023 11:11am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      He’s refusing to use the word ‘Māori’, which is the correct =term for our indigenous people. It’s tied to the racist idea that Māori have no special place here because their ancestors came from somewhere else.
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:44am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Not indigenous, Maori are immigrants.
        Stop talking shit.
        
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        December 12, 2023 11:00am
      - Nigel Kearney
        
        Irrelevant. Maori have no special place here because nobody is entitled to anything special based on who their ancestors were.
        
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        December 12, 2023 11:23am
      - Don Beckett
        
        Actually, the word ‘Maori’ simply means ‘the people’. It is not exclusive to New Zealand Maori – the Cook Island people call themselves ‘Maori’ also, and as we all know, many of our Maori people came from the Cook Islands. The Takatimu canoe left from Takatimu beach on Rarotonga. A young Maori guy who used to work for me has direct descendents from Takatimu, and when he was about 18, he went with his parents back to Rarotonga and met his relatives from many generations ago, preserved in verbal history.
        
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        December 12, 2023 11:46am
      - Pope Punctilious II
        
        Responding to Steve Otto. That’s not a productive argument, I’m afraid. Maaori are internationally recognized as the indigenous people of NZ. “Indigenous” of course has multiple meanings, but milkenmild is using the word in the sense that’s normally applied to ethnicities or peoples.
        
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        December 12, 2023 12:44pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Exactly PPII. Clyde is using the term because he wishes to deny the indigeneity of Māori.
        
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        December 12, 2023 2:08pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        @Pope,
        Bend and twist it all you like, Maori are immigrants, they came by canoe. They are not indigenous full stop.
        People who think Maori are indigenous are part of the problem – the lie!
        
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        December 12, 2023 2:14pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Having a special place due to one’s race is what’s known as racism. But you do you.
        
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        December 12, 2023 6:46pm
- Paulus
  
  Bus Tickets anybody !
  
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  December 12, 2023 11:08am
Souvlaki

What is Chris Finlaysons problem?
He seems to be suggesting on ZB this am Seymour should capitulate to the ‘thugs veto’, because discussing the treaty in such a manner ‘will cause unrest’.
In my opinion , he is biased in favour of Maori, and cannot be regarded as a balanced commentator….which is perhaps why the media always wheel him out as some sort of ‘ oracle’ ?.
On this theme,Chris Trotter is the far better opinionist:
https://democracyproject.nz/2023/12/11/chris-trotter-contested-ground/
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December 12, 2023 8:22am
- Simon
  
  Finlayson MSM narrative promoter. Minority position that was unacceptable to the voters. He isn’t relevant.
  
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  December 12, 2023 8:31am
  - Wayne Mapp
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    I think you will find that his views a very carefully taken into account by National. He is seen as the most successful Treaty Minister since Sir Doug Graham.
    
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    December 12, 2023 9:56am
    - krazykiwi
      
      Seen as successful by whom, Wayne? His pre-parliament clients who did very well under his treaty settlements watch?
      
      Or was his success being the proverbial fox guarding the henhouse with his treaty settlement and auditor general roles, roles that should never have been allowed to coalesce?
      
      As a citizen and taxpayer I regard his influence as having been malign and wholly unsuited to the creation of a modern civil democracy.
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:06am
    - JimBobJoe
      
      Very successful Treaty Minster for Ngai Tahu to be sure Wayne.
      
      A majority of NZers voted for change. Labour halved its vote. TMP got under 3% of the vote.
      
      A majority of NZers voted to do away with racial preference.
      
      But Wayne Mapp knows better. Chris Findlayson knows better.
      
      They are obviously our cultural and political betters and we the NZ public should bend the knee to them and not discuss anything in a manner they disagree with.
      
      Wayne you failed to gain status and standing in Labour, and for so reason the Nats welcomed you in. Which just shows why all faith in the political system for Centrist and Right of Centre voters is almost gone.
      
      The Nats are just another moderate Left wing party who spout right of centre policy positions to get elected and then do little to effectively implement them if its not an easy fix or beneficial to their major donors.
      
      The country has become dependent on Government as Labour and the more hard line left want over the last 30 years – and National have done nothing to stop it.
      
      And during that last 30 years our economic, academic and societal spheres have degraded to almost 3rd world standards. Labour and National have failed to deliver….
      
      But Wayne wants it to continue because…. reasons. I suppose Wayne when you are in the political elite and get nice high paid jobs linked to government entities everything is rosy.
      
      It aint rosy out in the working class suburbs. Violence is everywhere, money is tight and people are not interested in racial division or privilege.
      
      Every failed policy and every gift of cash & influence to Maori Tribal elites (the real 1% in NZ) makes life worse in the working suburbs… You and your ilk are failures and drivers of long term destruction.
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:18am
    - Dougal10
      
      Not a high bar as history has shown.
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:19am
    - David Garrett
      
      Wayne: The most successful since Lord Montrose at giving away large sums of taxpayers’ money and weeping in the House for the Crown’s real and supposed wrongs.
      
      I pose to you the question I once asked Finlayson: Why on earth would the supposedly “full and final” settlements he negotiated be any more durable than similar such settlements in the past, starting with the settlements made in the 1940’s?
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:27am
      - Wayne Mapp
        
        They are “full and final” because of the exhaustive process of each settlement, unlike the 1940’s settlements.
        Obviously a future parliament could open them again, but I think that highly unlikely. The 1940’s settlements were up for negotiation in a little over 30 years after they were completed. It is now 30 years since the Tainui and Ngai Tahu settlements were done. No-one is seriously suggested they be re-opened.
        
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        December 12, 2023 10:55am
      - David Garrett
        
        Wayne: As your wife knows – or perhaps she has conveniently forgotten – the grounds for re-opening the “full and final” settlements of the 1940’s in the early 90’s were three-fold: 1) That they were negotiated with the wrong people; and 2) The amounts of compensation agreed were trifling; and 3) that in any event those amounts had been eroded by inflation.
        
        To take those in turn: the Tainui settlement was negotiated by Princess Te Puea Herangi, widely acknowledged to be the then matriarch of Tainui, and her chosen advisors on the one side, and then Prime Minister Peter Fraser and his advisors on the other side. So much for the “wrong people” argument.
        
        Second, the amount agreed was 6000 pounds per year in perpetuity. Research I did 30 years ago when I wrote some op-eds for the Dominion revealed that 6000 pounds was then the price of a good dairy farm in the Waikato – let’s say $3-4 million today. So hardly “trifling amounts”.
        
        Also as your wife should know, the first edition of Michael King’s biography “Te Puea” records that when Fraser made his offer after extensive negotiations, Te Puea was so taken aback by its generosity that she urged her chief negotiator to his feet to accept before Fraser could change his mind.
        (I noted that in a recent “revised” edition of King’s book that passage and several others has been edited out, including that the Mahutas had rejected a proposal that the annual payments should be paid into a special fund, the only purposes of which were to buy up land in the Waikato, and to send promising Tainui to uni.)
        
        Lastly, of course the payments were eroded by inflation. Any sums agreed to in the 1940’s became worth very much less with the rampant inflation of the 1970’s. So what? If one retired on an AMP pension of $75 a week in 1970 – a sum ample then to live on – by 1980 it was indeed if not a trifling amount, certainly worth very much less than it was. AMP was not about to top up said pension.
        
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        December 12, 2023 11:26am
      - Burtland
        
        “full and final”
        
        Ngai Tahu
        1944 £10,000 pa in perpetuity
        1998 Settlement $170M
        2012 top up $68M
        2017 top up $180M
        2022 top up $96M
        Dispute resolutions $54M
        
        https://www.govt.nz/assets/Documents/OTS/Ngai-Tahu/Ngai-Tahu-Relativity-Mechanism-payments-07-Jun-2023.pdf
        
        https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/treaty/the-treaty-in-practice/ngai-tahu#:~:text=The%20Ngaitahu%20Claim%20Settlement%20Act,from%20further%20pursuing%20its%20claim.
        
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        December 12, 2023 11:58am
      - krazykiwi
        
        Wayne: “They are “full and final” because of the exhaustive process of each settlement, unlike the 1940’s settlements.”
        
        Given Burtland’s comment above, any thoughts, Wayne, on the Exhaustive Processes™ in 1998, 2012, 2017, and 2022?
        
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        December 12, 2023 12:46pm
      - David Garrett
        
        burtland: Well said. I believe the Tainui have had THREE “full and final” settlements – the one made in 1946 to which I refer above, another in the early ’90’s, and yet another when they blew the second one, inter alia on the ridiculous purchase of a rugby league team. God knows who advised them on that ill advised purchase.
        
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        December 12, 2023 12:47pm
      - Wayne Mapp
        
        David
        As you presumably know, the top ups are actually part of the 1995 settlements, specifically the relativity provision.
        So no, there have not been new settlements since 1995, just the continuing implementation of the 1995 settlements.
        
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        December 12, 2023 2:09pm
      - David Garrett
        
        Wayne: I see you haven’t addressed my comment below, on why the three arguments relied on in the ’90’s to reject the settlement legislated for in 1946 were complete bollocks.
        
        I would very much like to read your response. The three bullshit arguments again were: 1) that the 1944 settlement was negotiated by the wrong people; and 2) that the 6000 pounds per year was a “trifling amount”; and 3) that the value of the annual payment was eroded by inflation.
        
        Only the last of the three had any validity.
        
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        December 12, 2023 3:53pm
    - Matt Long
      
      From a distance the Earth look Blue/Green, but at it’s core it’s completely Red. On Treaty Issues as well as elsewhere National is already putting Election Promises away for next time.
      Here’s Willis finding her socialist roots.
      https://www.taxpayers.org.nz/taxpayer_update_20231211?
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:44am
    - Unity
      
      No he wasn’t. He had a gross conflict of interest as he had long been in the pay of ‘Maori’.
      
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      December 12, 2023 11:29am
    - Pope Punctilious II
      
      Wayne Mapp reminds us once again why the Key government was the least effective centre-right government in living memory.
      
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      December 12, 2023 12:46pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Wayne you realise the National party is there to serve the whole NZ community right? As in not appointed to be “captain’s call” philosopher kings.
      
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      December 12, 2023 6:49pm
    - Jack5
      
      Wayne Mapp on Finlayson … the most successful Treaty Minister since Sir Doug Graham …
      
      Finlayson, as a lawyer, was acting for Ngai Tahu, and Graham was on the Government side of the deal, when the South Island tribe obtained its sweetheart deal.
      
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      December 13, 2023 12:54am
- Inandout
  
  Sou, Chris comes from a law practice that was embeded in Treaty matters so he was an obvious choice as a Treaty minister in the previous National government. Whether he was a good Minister depends on your point of view.
  
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  December 12, 2023 8:33am
  - Gravelroad
    
    The way the authoritative Mr Finlayson talks the about The Treaty and its status, it is almost though he was there at the signing.
    Helped draft it even.
    Perhaps he was there in some sort of spirit form.
    Good on him, anyway.
    Living in the past has its rewards.
    
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    December 12, 2023 9:35am
- kiwikidsnz
  
  In another eloquent article, Chris Trotter nails both Meaghers inspirational speech & the rabid Left/TPMs reaction:
  
  https://thebfd.co.nz/2023/12/11/you-dont-own-us/
  
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  December 12, 2023 8:39am
- Grunter
  
  I agree. Finlayson had his turn, and he fuelled a lot of this co-governance nonsense we now have. And to read Trotter (a raving leftie from the ’70’s) making more sense than Finlayson says it all.
  
  Finlayson said to Hosking that having a referendum can not happen because it is “too hot”. Which is exactly why we need a referendum. If we leave it as a simmering unresolved issue it will be resolved some other way.
  
  We either do it democratically, or we do it undemocratically. Hmmm, I pick the former!
  
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  December 12, 2023 8:56am
- slightlyrighty
  
  Trotter has a very good grasp on the issues at hand, and the activist nature of those who have been in the Waitangi Tribunal since 2014 have divided our country instead of uniting it.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:24am
- David Garrett
  
  Souvlaki: Aside from being an insincere and dishonest little bastard, Finlayson is hopelessly compromised on matters Maori because of his past work for Ngai Tahu.
  
  After I left parliament I wrote to him asking him why he thought the “full and final” settlements he was negotiating would be any more durable than the many such settlements which had gone before.
  
  The nasty bastard replied with a reference to my passport offence of 40 years ago (next year), and declined to answer.
  
  Of course he knows the answer: There will never be any truly full and final settlements; the Maori will always come back for more. That’s what you get when you feed stray cats.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:34am
  - Pope Punctilious II
    
    Comparing Maaori to stray cats? Come on Mr. Garrett, you’re better than that.
    
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    December 12, 2023 12:48pm
    - David Garrett
      
      Pope: I have zero respect for Maori – a minority of the population to be sure – who continually have their hands out for more. I have particular disdain for those whose demands for “more” are accompanied by a re-writing of history, e.g. finding “grievances” where there were in fact none.
      
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      December 12, 2023 1:34pm
- Wayne Mapp
  
  Chris is a good deal more balanced than many of those interviewed on RNZ this morning. This included Margaret Mutu, whose views went virtally uncontested.
  She stated that the English version of the Treaty is only a draft. She is incorrect. Hobson signed both the English and Maori versions. Thus both are authentic versions of the Treaty. Hobson could not speak Maori. The British clearly thought they were gaining sovereignty. Their entire actions over the next 50 years were entirely consistent with that.
  It is a pity that RNZ did not interview Shane Jones. NZF has made a particular point that both texts of the Treaty have to be taken into account, rather than the TPM or Waitangi Tribunal view in the Ngapuhi claim that only the Maori version counts.
  Margaret Mutu has stopped Ngati Kahu from doing a treaty settlement for the last 30 years. They are not even in discussion with the Crown, since they don’t recognise the Crown. Ngapuhi at least is having serious discussions with Crown about settling their claim, even if they have been enormously protracted.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:54am
  - nathie
    
    Well RNZ have form, and they have done it again, they have removed (or not posted) their 8.10am interview between Corin Dann and one of the Te Papa protestor (“terrorists” – as in akin to).
    
    Heard the first half of the interview but gave up after Corin continued to cede his journalist role of questioning the stance of his interviewee when the protestor spouted activist te ao maori views and Corin mostly went quiet resulting in the protester being given a free roaming platform to present radical and divisive viewpoints.
    
    RNZ – hang your heads in shame. Is that why you won’t post the interview online?
    
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport …. nope no interview showing between 8.06 and 8.17am.
    
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    December 12, 2023 10:18am
    - Clyde
      
      nathie, I’d suggest making a formal complaint to RNZ and when they dismiss it, take it to the BSA. It makes them address it, and there is always a paper trail. My suggestion is to also send a copy of all complaints to Melissa Lee. Gives her ammunition to get rid of the political appointees at Red Radio from the days of Faafoi and little willie Jackson.
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:48am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        If only National would let Melissa Lee off the leash. She can attack!
        
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        December 12, 2023 11:45am
    - Burtland
      
      https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018919152/protesters-speak-after-te-papa-vandalism
      
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      December 12, 2023 11:05am
  - Unity
    
    Wayne, the only version that is final was the Maori version. Earlier English drafts were used for an overflow of signatures but they were always stated to be defacto the Maori Treaty.
    
    Go to http://www.onenewzealandfoundation.co.nz and you will see our well researched true history which Politicians are totally ignoring. It’s an utter disgrace.
    
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    December 12, 2023 11:06am
    - Don Beckett
      
      Maori had no written language, so the treaty was drafted in English, the translated into Maori with the approval of the Ngapuhi chiefs – so the English version has to be correct, being just as original as the Maori text.
      It is now the meaning of the words that, 180 years later, the Ngapuhi are protesting about, and as anyone even remotely familiar with Te Reo, words in Maori can have multiple meanings – just look at Waka Kotahi ( First Canoe) – depending on the context.
      Its a snow job.
      
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      December 12, 2023 12:03pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Translated into Maori by Henry Williams.
        The English version was given to Henry Littlewood. Lost, then found in 1989.
        The first 10 minutes tell the events.
        
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVgY03s6Tqc
        
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        December 12, 2023 2:34pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Wayne. Have a look at Julian Batchelor’s post on Stop Co-governance today.
    He tore Mutu a new one.
    Mutu is a victim!
    
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    December 12, 2023 11:18am
Rusty

Who was the numpty from the UN who declared the world is moving to the “global boiling” stage?

Anyone in Auckland noticing that with the weather today?
37 2
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December 12, 2023 8:22am
- Ehlana
  
  The numpty identifies as boiling. You may identify as chilled (or anyone of over a hundred identifiers) if you prefer.
  
  I’m currently identifying as indoors, where the weather is good.
  
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  December 12, 2023 11:50am
  - G152
    
    In the 60s we were told that we were coming out of an Ice Age. I see little to change that statement
    
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    December 12, 2023 12:27pm
mikenmildagain

Time to celebrate one of the Catholic demi-gods: Saint Corentin of Quimper. He had a miraculous fish from which Corentin would cut a small piece to eat, and that piece would regrow. so naturally St Corentin is the patron saint of seafood. So thank St Corentin while enjoying a seafood crepe or galette.
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December 12, 2023 8:23am
- Simon
  
  Still better than any DEI hire. Imagine hiring people based on their racial makeup. The left wing religion.
  
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  December 12, 2023 8:26am
- kiwikidsnz
  
  So that’s where Green economics originated
  
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  December 12, 2023 8:40am
- imalwaysright
  
  Mike,
  I’m quite partial to the odd squirt.
  
  https://www.newscientist.com/article/2205034-sea-creature-uses-stem-cells-to-regrow-entire-body-from-a-tiny-piece/
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:23am
- Lee C
  
  I’d never thought of you as a connoisseur of seafood, Milky.
  
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  December 12, 2023 10:21am
- NZer In Exile
  
  Gosh how quirky. Ho ho ho.
  
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  December 12, 2023 6:51pm
Mickey

I have been internalising this complicated situation in my head!

Bear with me a minute and read this with an open mind and then poke holes in either the stats and/or my assumptions/deductions.

1. Stats NZ states – 5% of NZ population are LGBTQ. Let’s just say 5% are gay for simplicity.
2. Lets also assume that 50% are males, oops sorry, people with Y chromosomes.
3. Wiki states from a survey conducted in 2014 that 22% of men in prison have had gay sex (mostly consensual)

DEDUCTION 1
a) A large majority of incarcerated
peoples are gay, or;
b) Prison turns men into gays

4. Heterosexual people in prison with Y chromosomes view their homosexual
acts as being ‘situation specific’ and many gay people claim they are the way they are because of a childhood ‘situation’.

DEDUCTION 2
a) People in the LGBTQ group are
there because of a ‘specific situation’ they
found themselves in or they were exposed to
at a young age or later in adult life (i.e. not
born that way as is often claimed

DEDUCTION 3
a) A high number of incarcerated
men turn to gay sex because of the situation
they are in, i.e. a lack of straight sex (this is
concerning because if thats the only
‘gloryhole’ you can find in prison
then you need to be more creative)

*I know people who have not had sex for years and they do not go around looking for the nearest ‘brown eye’ to shove their winston into.

Lets ASSUME DEDUCTION 3 is more accurate:
1. Lets fix this by:
a. Giving more conjugal visits
b. Provide paid for prostitutes for the
ones whose missus will not ‘do it’ in prison
c. Add libido reducing drugs to
prisoners food (copper sulphate –
bluestone used to be added to
soldiers food during training)
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December 12, 2023 8:24am
- wsk12345
  
  I don’t understand what problem you are trying to solve.
  If men are having consensual sex with other men (obvs they shouldn’t be as they are in prison but let’s put that aside), why does that need to be swapped for sex with women or no sex at all.
  
  I do t mean to be rude but like labour pollys you have failed to define the problem before leaping into solutions mode.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:53am
  - Mickey
    
    Reducing gay sex in prisons, duh!
    Swapping anal sex for normal sex is normal.
    
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    December 12, 2023 10:27am
- NothingLeft
  
  Prison sex is mostly not consensual. In USA something like 20% of male inmates have been forced or pressured into having sex. Men are raped nearly as frequently as women due to huge numbers in prison.
  
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  December 12, 2023 10:01am
- Lee C
  
  Mate, if you are that keen to find out, just own it.
  
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  December 12, 2023 10:22am
- Paulus
  
  Why is it that I am still trying to find out how many people in New Zealand (Not Australia or other Overseas) Maori there are as we are being fed continually something like 16% which is totally spurious.
  The recent two Censuses and Electoral roles should give us a more true picture suggested at 8.9%.
  Lets have some truth Stats Dept please, and not your made up figures.
  
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  December 12, 2023 11:15am
  - Ra Henare
    
    Good question Paulus.
    
    It would seem that when its advantageous to recognize your non Maori background (ie the 50s) many used anglicized names.
    
    In recent times, say the last 50 years. It appears that it has become more advantageous to have a Maori name??? Maori Identity???
    
    I think it will not be a problem easily solved if identity of a race can be attributed to a remote genealogical thread.
    
    On that basis I should Identify as Welsh having had a great great great great father who was 100% Welsh.
    
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    December 12, 2023 5:29pm
Simon

People who claim to be leaders of any particular racial groups. Imagine being from a particular racial group and having some clown to presume to speak on your behalf. Why tolerate such nonsense.
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December 12, 2023 8:24am
Southern Raider

The coalition is definitely helping to bring all the nutters out into public view and highlight the systemic tribal elitism in our public service

– yesterday we had a group of white woke protesters (most looked to be elderly or Vic Uni students) attack our national museum. Somehow they considered it okay to vandalise public property and in addition the CEO of the museum seemed very relaxed that a major exhibit had been destroyed
– Chair of Whatu Ora quit because he seemed more interested in identity politics and having Māori and Pacifica as external victims
– some random tribe decided to use white mans court system to try and stop the govt from destroying their culture but didn’t seem clear on what was being threatened or how
– unionists targeted a MPs office due to repeal or a law that actually keeps workers in poverty by not enabling them new job opportunities
– Robbo got more excited attacking the govt than any passion he showed while being in charge for 6 years
– media has gone into full feral attack mode

Going to be a long three years. Only positive is that the comments on any media article almost solely support the Govt and attack the media for being radical left biased
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December 12, 2023 8:32am
slightlyrighty

Yesterday, these nutters who defaced the treaty exhibt at Te Papa may actually be proving Seymours point.

Our “Founding Document” (Which was never designed as such) is translated from english to a written form of Te Reo that did not even exist 20 years prior. As such there is a very confusing situation, and that confusion needs to be addressed.

This needs to be done in a calm and rational manner as Seymour suggests. Abseiling activists is not the way to go forward.
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December 12, 2023 8:32am
Maggie Pie

A bestie retweets….

“I’ve been saying for some time now that something is not right with this.
These poor babies will never know a Mother’s love”.

https://twitter.com/PopCrave/status/1733980899820142780
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December 12, 2023 8:35am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  How can you have ‘a bestie’? Implies there could be many ‘besties’ when surely only one could bear the superlative.
  
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  December 12, 2023 8:41am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Never give up on your dreams milkey.
    
    Keep sleeping 😀
    
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    December 12, 2023 8:44am
- kiwikidsnz
  
  Does your friend express her outrage when lesbian (& other) women ensure their children don’t have a father’s love?
  
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  December 12, 2023 8:45am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Surrogate? Hang about. Some people have been trying to convince us the men can have babies. Are they lying?
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:04am
- ClanMcleod
  
  MP – did you come across this poor baby and her mother’s ‘love’?
  
  Warning, it’s not violence but I found it quite distressing.
  
  https://x.com/tribalchief25/status/1732569079838638111?s=20
  
  I’m all for giving people a fair go, but if that toddle is the child of this excuse for a human being, she should be removed instantly and the ‘mother’ should be sterilised.
  
  Who the fuck would even think of doing something like this to a child?
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:18am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Shit parents 🙁
    
    17 3
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    December 12, 2023 9:27am
- imalwaysright
  
  They look the type that always got what they wanted for Christmas, and still do.
  And yes, putting on an effeminate voice doesn’t make you mum.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:36am
Gulag1917

Interesting read.
The British Army in Palestine
In the aftermath of the Second World War (1939-45), the British Army found itself stuck in the middle of a growing conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine. The momentous events that followed led to the creation of the State of Israel.
https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/conflict-Palestine
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December 12, 2023 8:40am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Not really a ‘growing conflict between Arabs and Jews’ so much as the Jewish revolt against the British manadate authorities.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:57am
  - Che Guava
    
    Indeed, mike. The nascent Israelis pretty much hated everyone (British, Arab et al), rather than being the passive party in the constant conflict in the region since the Zionist movement gained momentum.
    
    The disdain the Israelis so often have towards anyone but themselves is illustrated in incidents like the infamous Lavon Affair of 1954:
    
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair
    
    “The Lavon affair was a failed Israeli covert operation, codenamed Operation Susannah, conducted in Egypt in the summer of 1954. As part of a false flag operation, a group of Egyptian Jews were recruited by Israeli military intelligence to plant bombs inside Egyptian-, American-, and British-owned civilian targets: cinemas, libraries, and American educational centers. The bombs were timed to detonate several hours after closing time. The attacks were to be blamed on the Muslim Brotherhood, Egyptian communists, “unspecified malcontents”, or “local nationalists” with the aim of creating a climate of sufficient violence and instability to induce the British government to retain its occupying troops in Egypt’s Suez Canal zone.”
    
    “The operation ultimately became known as the Lavon affair after the Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon, who was forced to resign as a consequence of the incident.”
    
    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-lavon-affair
    
    “The Israelis, meanwhile, did not want the British to leave. The British presence guaranteed a buffer of sorts to an attempted Egyptian invasion of Israel. With the British gone, there would be nothing to stand between Egypt and Israel but the vast wastelands of the Sinai.
    
    Thus, the Israelis approached several native Egyptian Jews, who recruited others, usually from among their own social circle. These Egyptian Jews were ready to spy against Egypt because they never regarded themselves, nor did others regard them, as Egyptians. They attended Jewish schools, their social contacts were limited almost exclusively to Jews, and most of them did not even hold Egyptian citizenship.”
    
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    December 12, 2023 6:01pm
70andstilllearning

Amused by 3ewes crew melting down last night over Luxon’s comment that civil servants need not bother wasteing time doing RIS’s as the new Minister’s are too busy repealing things to read them. Guess Jenna’s ‘leak’ well will go dry. 🙂
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December 12, 2023 8:50am
- Maggie Pie
  
  Something i only found out last night, was that Jenna Lynch’s hubby Andrew Ketels,
  is the Act Party’s Chief-of-Staff.
  And they have a dog called….. ‘Winston’. LOL!!
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:03am
  - Paulus
    
    Lynch has hidden this partner factor for some time pretending to be top dog as political expert without pillow information
    Pleased that she has a child too, which I would have thought give her more tolerance, but actually show her ignorance in trying to outdo Tova and Jessie.
    She is till a pain in the arse, if you watch her antics with her hands.
    
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    December 12, 2023 11:21am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Does ACT know that National are dissing the RIA’s introduced last time ACT was in government?
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:05am
  - peterwn
    
    Most probably. Given the purpose behind RIS/RIA ‘s (Regulatory impact assessments), ACT would be quite comfortable for the assessments not to be done when repealing legislation that has yet to take effect. Anyway Cabinet is quite at liberty to waive the production of reports that are usually required for a Cabinet decision.
    
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    December 12, 2023 9:28am
- Blog-aholic
  
  Lynch even contradicted herself in the article because she stated that the RIS had already been done when the legislation was proposed and those RIS can be used for the repeal without creating new ones she even said “rinse and repeat”. They honestly must think their viewers are thick.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:41am
fernglas

Has anyone here tried to reconcile how the third clause of the Maori version of the treaty of Waitangi, as translated by Prof Sir Hugh Kawharu, which provides that (paraphrased) ” all the people of New Zealand shall have the same rights and duties of citizenship”, can co-exist with a first clause which apparently does not cede sovereignty to the Crown?
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December 12, 2023 8:52am
- kiwikidsnz
  
  Bruce Moon had a serve on this last week
  https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2023/12/bruce-moon-response-to-godfery.html
  
  “…is not clear why Cabinet does not use Young’s version written much closer in time to that of its source, rather than Kawharu’s version from a much later date when substantial changes had evolved in Maori meaning and usage.”
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:59am
- Paulus
  
  As Kawharu is no longer with us he must have been wrong !
  
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  December 12, 2023 11:22am
- Nigel Kearney
  
  There is no contradiction. The Maori version does not mention sovereignty simply because Maori had no word for sovereignty. But it does say:
  
  “[The Chiefs] give absolutely to the Queen of England for ever the complete government over their land”
  
  Sovereignty is the right or power to determine how you are governed. If you cede ‘complete government’ ‘for ever’ then you have ceded sovereignty, or at least all its practical consequences.
  
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  December 12, 2023 11:37am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Some goings on at Te Papa yesterday.
Radicals protesting an English translation of the Treaty. They say Maori did not cede sovereignty.
They did. Read Article one. Careful, Mr Google has mis-information.

“The Chiefs of the confederation of united tribes, and the other Chiefs who have not joined the confederation, C͟e͟d͟e͟ to the Queen of England forever the entire sovereignty of their Country.”

Expect much more of this as radicals are encouraged to go on the warpath.
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December 12, 2023 8:57am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  If some of the tribes did not cede sovereignty, what on earth were their forebears doing for the last 183 years accepting all the trappings and benefits of citizenship?
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:07am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    (by forebears… I mean the forebears of folks protesting nowadays)
    
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    December 12, 2023 9:17am
  - NothingLeft
    
    The modern house-of-cards nonsense surrounding reinterpretations and promotion of Treaty as something meaningful/important is obviously horeshit from a customary practice point of view. It was widely disregarded and barely remembered for a century. But like a decades old dress sitting at the bottom of a draw that has been pulled out dusted off, patched up and is now being worn all the time.
    
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    December 12, 2023 10:07am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Page 7 of the Stop Co-Governance booklet explains it.
    Contact them for a copy if you don’t have one. I have 6 left.
    
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    December 12, 2023 2:46pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    In Article one: ” and the other Chiefs who have not joined the confederation,”
    
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    December 13, 2023 8:12am
- Maggie Pie
  
  Most twitterati are saying it had to be an…. ‘inside job’ 🙁
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:16am
- Surely Knott
  
  How did these heavily orchestrated protests in museums happening. Does Te Papa really not have security cams on the roof?
  
  Te Papa have their security advice for museums on the net and it says building exterior: check the building exterior, ledges roofs etc to make sure that no one can enter through windows, sky light or roof. Fit windows and sky lights with grills.
  
  So how did it happen?
  
  https://www.tepapa.govt.nz/sites/default/files/te_papa_museum_secrurity_resource_guide_zv7_1.pdf
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:17am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Infiltrated by the protesters.
    Do they work there? IMO yes.
    
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    December 12, 2023 2:48pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  IIRC it is not correct to refer to “an English translation”. The Treaty is in English. It was then translated to Maori as well as can be expected, given that there had only been a written Maori language for about 5 minutes. If the Maori version is now seen as having a different meaning than the English version, that is both unexpected and bad luck.
  
  I very much doubt that the Maori language is capable of conveying complex concepts of the type conveyed by the English language. In 1840, even more so. For example, could you translate the ‘standard operating procedures manual’ for a Boeing 787 from English to Maori with sufficient precision to allow someone fluent in te reo to safely operate the airplane? I have my doubts. In contrast, that manual can (and has been) translated into Chinese and it means exactly the same as the English language version.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:22am
  - Cassandra
    
    That Christmas in Maori is Kirihimete says it all. Esperanto would be more useful. Pidgin would be more honest.
    
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    December 12, 2023 9:55am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Next you will be telling me that English doesn’t assimilate words from other languages.
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:48am
  - thirteenstars
    
    “I very much doubt that the Maori language is capable of conveying complex concepts of the type conveyed by the English language.”
    
    Bingo. Same all over the world when such cultural clashes occur. Just look at the overuse of waka because that was the only type of conveyance known to Maori. Apply that to a treaty translation where canoes can become cars can become planes can become anything that moves and you have a disagreement ripe for neo-Marxist exploitation.
    
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    December 12, 2023 10:07am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      I certainly can’t think of any English words that have multiple meanings like waka.
      //
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:50am
      - thirteenstars
        
        Waka doesn’t have multiple meanings. It has had multiple meanings attributed to it because Maori is a language frozen in time.
        
        English has literally hundreds of words for all types of conveyances, and because English is a living, dynamic language it borrows from other languages when necessary.
        
        Maori can’t do that because very quickly the number of loanwords would reduce actual Maori to a subset of the total.
        
        Cultural rigidity is the wider problem. Maori culture as a whole cannot evolve to any great degree. It must always be fixed in the past, an artifact, a curiosity, for if it does allow itself to evolve and through natural cultural osmosis become changed, like the language it will quickly be reduced to a subset of its former self.
        
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        December 12, 2023 11:17am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Waka can mean canoe, box, trough or flock.
        I can’t understand why you think English can use loanwords but Māori cannot.
        
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        December 12, 2023 2:17pm
      - thirteenstars
        
        “I can’t understand why you think English can use loanwords but Māori cannot.”
        
        If Maori were using loanwords then the example given of waka would not be used so ubiquitously that it loses all meaning. To use the word for canoe, truck and plane affords no clarity. Simply use the words truck and plane which would be actual loanwords.
        
        The overuse of such words that are intended to have wildly different meanings infantilises the language and by association also Maori by showing the language to be unsophisticated and not capable of much real-world use.
        
        Can you imagine conducting a science or philosophy lecture in Maori? 90% of the content would need to be loandwords.
        
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        December 12, 2023 2:55pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Why the downticks for you Mike? Is it because you don’t do /humour/satire much?
        You got an up from me sonny.
        I just had to look:
        I left my phone on the left side of the room.
        The baseball pitcher asked for a pitcher of water.
        The committee chair sat in the center chair.
        While they are at the play, I’m going to play with the dog.
        She will park the car so we can walk in the park.
        The crane flew above the construction crane.
        
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        December 12, 2023 2:55pm
      - Ra Henare
        
        minute (time and small) springs to mind.
        
        https://word-lists.com/word-lists/100-english-words-with-multiple-meanings/
        
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        December 12, 2023 6:31pm
  - Paulus
    
    What kind of Maori language was there in 1840 as they had no written one.
    As they were Iwi (tribal) each had their own grunt language.
    
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    December 12, 2023 11:26am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      ‘grunt language’
      WTF?
      
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      December 12, 2023 2:18pm
- Dudley Quaffquaff
  
  Their point was that that’s not what it says in the te reo version, and therefore not what the Maori signatories agreed to. If they were asked, or if they said, what it does say in the te reo version, that information wasn’t included in the report I saw.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:24am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Exactly. If ‘sovereignty’ had been translated as ‘rangatiratanga’ or ‘mana’ instead of ‘kawanatanga’ (governorship) the no Māori would have signed.
    
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    December 12, 2023 10:00am
    - Inandout
      
      m&m, I recall many chiefs signed with symbols because they had no understanding of what their English identity was. Be completely honest here, the Maori people were stoneage as evidenced by having not even a wheel. FGS the Romans BC by comparison were building huge stadiums and had piped water.
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:14am
      - Nickc2
        
        So the Romans had piped water?
        I think Maori were streets ahead, even pre-1840.
        Maori only want the money generated by such a resource and associated system while sneaking (stealing) some of the resource for themselves has always been a part of Maori psyche.
        
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        December 12, 2023 11:51am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        I knew an older Maori guy in Turangi at the Club who could speak English but not write it. Surname was ‘Hatrick.”
        When he signed into the club he drew a picture of a hat. That was his “mark.”
        
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        December 12, 2023 3:00pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        @Nick,
        Naughty!
        
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        December 12, 2023 3:02pm
      - thirteenstars
        
        “So the Romans had piped water?”
        
        Yes.
        
        https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/lead-pipes-rome-ostia-soil-samples
        
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        December 12, 2023 3:56pm
      - Jack5
        
        The Romans not only had only piped water, Nickc2.
        
        They had sewerage – 2000 years ago.
        
        The Cloaca Maxima (Great Sewer) of those times is still being used in Rome.
        
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        December 13, 2023 1:05am
    - hmmokrightitis
      
      Thats a huge assumption mike. You know this how?
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:57am
      - Paulus
        
        What did Maori use for what we call money – dollars and cents perhaps invented by them (like the wheel)!
        
        5 1
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        December 12, 2023 2:00pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        @Paulus,
        “Wheel” as in money go round?
        
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        December 12, 2023 3:04pm
    - Dudley Quaffquaff
      
      Possibly; and it’s equally possibly that if the British side had thought that the Treaty didn’t mean Maori were ceding sovereignty, they wouldn’t have signed it. They weren’t going to offer them the rights and protection of British citizens and expect nothing in return.
      
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      December 12, 2023 11:16am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        The Queen of England said to the representers that if they don’t get sovereignty then the British would be out of there. The British apparently were not going to conquer anymore.
        See http://www.stopcogovernance.kiwi
        It is all in there.
        
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        December 12, 2023 3:10pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Regardless, there is plenty of evidence that the chiefs knew exactly what the deal was. A much more powerful and organised regime with many shiny nice things was offering them full membership in exchange for that regime, with it’s rules and regulations, being in charge of everyone. Simples. But feel free to spin a bunch of florid crap.
      
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      December 12, 2023 7:03pm
  - Libertarians are right
    
    But the display does include both versions and explains the differences and why the Te Reo version is used. It’s entirely reasonable but the crazies are crazy.
    
    The Chiefs that signed the Treaty weren’t stupid like the activists like to pretend. They knew what “Governance” meant (because it was used extensively in the translated Bible) and even knew what the Crown’s sovereignty over colonies entailed.
    
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    December 12, 2023 10:00am
    - MCōs
      
      There were few Māori Christians in NZ in 1840 & none beyond the Far North.
      https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/missionaries/henry-williams-era
      
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      December 12, 2023 1:30pm
- rouppe
  
  Couple of thoughts:
  
  1. If someone had done that to the Te Reo part of the exhibit, we’d be hearing words like “white washing Aotearoa”, “far right racists”, stuff like that. Well it works both ways. Those that did that act yesterday are just as ugly, evil and extreme.
  
  2. The Treaty was penned in English and translated to Te Reo. Not the other way around.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:27am
  - Dudley Quaffquaff
    
    Indeed; but it’s what is in the te reo version that the Maori signatories agreed to.
    
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    December 12, 2023 9:51am
    - Libertarians are right
      
      Which is literally what the exhibit those morons defaced says.
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:17am
      - Dudley Quaffquaff
        
        A point that was not included or examined in the news report that I saw. Really poor and irresponsible journalism
        
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        December 12, 2023 11:00am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      How do you know? You say that with the certainty of someone who was there.
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:23am
      - Dudley Quaffquaff
        
        I used to work with both the European Union and the World Trade Organisation and I learned then that it’s a provision of international law, that where a treaty is signed in different languages, each side is bound by the version in that side’s own language. How could it be otherwise?
        
        This protest is stupid and ignorant. But if we are to have the civilised, grown-up debate that Seymour wants about what the ToW means today, we are all going to have to listen carefully and thoughtfully to viewpoints that don’t accord with our own.
        
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        December 12, 2023 10:35am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        Thanks for that.
        
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        December 12, 2023 10:50am
    - rouppe
      
      Because the Maori signatories could read?
      
      What the Maori signatories signed was what they believed, and trusted, their advisors said was in the text.
      
      From nzhistory
      
      The Māori text was translated quickly but by men who were familiar with the language. The missionary Māori they used was known to the chiefs, and it conveyed key words and meanings. Henry Williams and the chiefs had spent much of the night of 5 February talking about the Treaty and its meanings.
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:28am
    - Ra Henare
      
      My memory ,( diminishing significantly with age, but used to be photographic level)
      
      Said that the UK Foreign office of the time (19th Century) declared that any treaties translated from English to a native language. Was that the Native language version would have supremacy
      
      Unfortunately I cant put my hands on a verifiable source.
      
      Oh and for those who keep rattling on that Maori are not indigenous, while also rabbiting on about Maori being a frozen language.
      
      Found this modern interpretation of Indigenous.
      
      Indigenous peoples[a] are the descendants of the earliest known inhabitants of a territory that has been colonized. Indigenous peoples have endured domination and control by a colonial mainstream society. Indigenous peoples have different cultures and languages from the ones of the dominant colony, specially in terms of their ancestral relation to the land in question, and their dependence on it for their cultural and material continuity.[1] The term Indigenous lacks a single, authoritative definition[2]
      
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      December 12, 2023 6:50pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    What is causing the stir is the phrase “Forrest and Fisheries” which was added in the Waitangi Tribunal version done by James Freeman but introduced by the crook Sir Hugh Kawharu.
    “Forest and Fisheries” are not to be seen pre 1975.
    As I have said elsewhere, be careful with the google machine, it has been corrupted depending on where you go. Herald and stuff are off their tits on it!
    
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    December 12, 2023 3:34pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Let ‘em keep it up, it will only strengthen support for government
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:55am
Notsofast

On Islam:

Winston Churchill understood this problem when he wrote, “How dreadful are the curses which Muhammadism lays on its votaries! … Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in this world.”

It seems Maori with their current celebration of Hamas would have preferred to be an Islamist colony.
I don’t think so, but if sharing the country was inevitable, maybe the English were the least bad prospect. The actual alternative was the French, hence the treaty with England.
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December 12, 2023 9:00am
surfing

Ann Tolley, Tauranga’s Commissioner, her new great love are ‘levies’.

She’s already got one. A levy to fund council’s 300 million dollar rebuild / revamp of the council buildings / CBD area. Ratepayers will get a levy added to their rates, which could be around $1000 because my home is above average value.

Now she is looking into other levies, to fund housing development in Papamoa East. Goodness knows how much she will be wanting from me this time.

And, this will all be on top of the usual 10-20% rates increases.
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December 12, 2023 9:01am
- peterwn
  
  Perhaps it is time to replace the Commissioner with … wait for it … another Conmissioner.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:30am
- Paulus
  
  She and her Mahuta appointed Commissioners will be gone in July so she tries to carry on regardless as they have made the biggest balls up of Tauranga imaginable and she said so last week.
  Too late as only stage one of the mess is almost completed for no parking and cyclists.
  Council staff have free bus passes for them – free = ratepayers pay for them alone.
  
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  December 12, 2023 11:32am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Yup. For anything to be free, it was taken from someone else.
    
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    December 12, 2023 3:38pm
Frank the tank

For anyone under misapprehension we are effectively at war in this country. 2-3 weeks into the government and the entire federation of the left – unions, local and central government bureaucracy, the media, ClimateCult, Teachers, professional protest groups and the Iwi elite are all attempting to intimidate and bully the government into walking back its policies and pledges.

Thankfully with Peters and Seymour in government Luxon won’t have the option to pull back.
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December 12, 2023 9:06am
- Paulus
  
  Media have resurrected Political Opinions Polls today so that they can slam the MMP Government and members whenever they want.
  Part of their failure to understand that we voted for a change and MMP shows this.
  
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  December 12, 2023 2:04pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Federation of the left. What a good term!
  Intimidate? Well there are two who won’t stand for that. Luxon, not so much.
  I think this 3 way coalition might be starting to work – and I didn’t think it would.
  Go you guys, destroy the left. Media first. “You are fake news” and then stonewall them. Get the messages out on social media. Fuck red radio and red TV.
  
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  December 12, 2023 3:43pm
Surely Knott

Scrolled past my Facebook , the NZ herald headline poses the question….”The Ardern Enigma, why so many NZers turned on our most popular leader.”

But they turn off comments! Lol. It’s not a question and she’s not an enigma. NZers would be quite happy to share why the rejected NZ’s most authoritarian leader who based her behaviour on China, breached our bill of rights , locked us in our homes to coerce us into an experimental medication, encouraged neighbours and family to turn on the unvaxxed and called for two classes of people.
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December 12, 2023 9:06am
- Notsofast
  
  Surely the real point is while everyone was preoccupied with covid, no one noticed her true agenda of promoting the cunning part maori takeover of the country.
  Only a permanent student could engage in such treason.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:58am
  - Paulus
    
    Correct as he paid for media would not tell anybody !
    
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    December 12, 2023 11:33am
- ClanMcleod
  
  Enigma? Enema more like it.
  
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  December 12, 2023 10:14am
- rouppe
  
  I’m shortly off for a winter jaunt through Europe. Germany, Czech Republic, Austria, Netherlands, Switzerland, Italy…
  
  Anyone that brings up Ardern will be in for a shock.
  
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  December 12, 2023 10:33am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Enigma. Well only a select few comprehend word soup waffle.
  What did she say? I know, I know. So what was it? Oh, I don’t really know.
  
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  December 12, 2023 3:46pm
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-qfGMCVXJ8
Councillor Tony Randle on the state of democracy and governance in Wellington.
Michael Laws speaks to Councillor Tony Randle about the state of democracy and governance in Wellington. [A commission couldn’t possibly be worse could it?] [10:35]
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December 12, 2023 9:12am
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoEbeoYizXQ
“He’s Got Every Gift” – RFK Jr. Discusses Gavin Newsom as a Presidential Candidate.
Patrick Bet-David is joined by Presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr, as they discuss California Governor Gavin Newsom’s debate against Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and if RFK thinks Newsom will be running for President in 2024. [5:00]
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December 12, 2023 9:12am
Pavel

Hey can anyone help me understand something? How come when the morning show interviews a politician they always put them up against Chloe Swarbrick? Weather it’s Brooke Van Velden or Shane Jones, Chloe is always the cointerview yet I feel she is way out of her league talking on most subjects. It’s like asking a mechanic for tips on carpentry. Is Chloe the most senior mp in NZ who can shine a light on all matter of problems, she sure seems to think she knows everything. Is there no one with more clout than Chloe?
Another thing, I was watching “celebrity Brain Busters” with the kids on Sunday morning and there’s Chloe, a “celebrity” contestant. Correct me if I’m wrong but I never considered her a celebrity, she’s a stinking politician and almost every dollar she’s earned has come from a government paycheck. I always thought celebrities were people who were rich and famous for bringing joy to people through singing, acting, artwork, sports etc, not from being a life long government grifter spreading doom and gloom across everything they see.
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December 12, 2023 9:13am
- Gravelroad
  
  Yes but she is cool, a bi-sexual woman, big city urban focussed and can talk.
  Boy, can she talk – and loudly.
  She has an opinion on everything in a smart, acidic kind of way. Looks good on Tv but shallow as p..s.
  Whether or not what she says is relevant or true doesn’t matter. It is the vibe that matters.
  Ms Swarbrick is the perfect influencer for socialsm – just so exciting………….
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:48am
  - NothingLeft
    
    An intellectual midget, like all the Greens.
    
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    December 12, 2023 10:12am
  - imalwaysright
    
    She tries to appear intelligent by using a weary, condescending, monotonal delivery of words that are unnecessarily obscure and often used on the fringe of proper context.
    She does this to deter follow up questions .
    I blame the parents .
    
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    December 12, 2023 12:25pm
  - Paulus
    
    Swarbrick sounds so loud that one must consider that she is as bad as Mayor of Wellington, or on something close.
    
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    December 12, 2023 2:06pm
- OlderChas
  
  Pavel IMHO she is building up name and face recognition for when the Labour Party have to elect(?)/appoint a new leader to replace chipkins. She is showing that she can be a vacuous but reasonable looking PM just like the last female PM.
  
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  December 12, 2023 1:31pm
  - Pavel
    
    Say what you want about Jacinda but when she was first trotted out she oozed charisma and was, at the time, seen as a young, fresh, attractive face in a world of boring old waxworks. Make your own judgment of Chloe but I got a feeling I know why she’s a lesbian. She sure doesn’t have the Jacinda effect to attract voters and before anyone mentions Helen Clark don’t forget that Helen Clark was an intellectual powerhouse by comparison.
    
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    December 12, 2023 4:16pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      The awful truth if you can bear it?
      
      Adored because she was young and not too bad looking (not my cup of tea but obviously not too horrible on the eye). Hence all the brain-dead female rags fawning over her.
      
      Also bursting with gushing confidence so that also appealed to the sad and ingrained NZ ethos of “men (especially older and wiser ones) are shit and women are wonderful” among many many NZ women.
      
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      December 12, 2023 7:17pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Shane Jones was far too polite to Chloe this morning.
  I think Shane like watching Chloe being an idiot.
  Overall, a good discussion without interruptions, except from the rude studio person.
  
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  December 12, 2023 3:55pm
  - Jack5
    
    Didn’t Chloe rub her hand over Jones’s shoulder?
    
    Would there have been a reaction if he had done that to her?
    
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    December 13, 2023 1:07am
lastmanstanding

I say its time we had a binding referendum on whether or not to consign the ToW to the dustbin.
Treaties are made for circumstances of the time and that time was 1840 not 2023.
Time to move on from 1840 to 2023 and look ahead not in the rear view mirror. Time to call out the Maori and other Elites for applying a handbreak on progress. Time to decide if NZ citizens are all equal under the law.
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December 12, 2023 9:14am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  First, the Gravy Train has to stop.
  Money for nothing, and the c͟h͟e͟c͟k͟s͟ are free.
  
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  December 12, 2023 4:01pm
- Ian Boag
  
  Referenda are lazy copouts. If the coalition want to scrap/amend/whatever the place of the Treaty they should just do it ….. they have the democratic mandate ….
  
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  December 12, 2023 5:08pm
pdm

`The Government and te reo Māori: Are they trying to start a culture war? – Simon Wilson’

No Simon – a few activists, including pakeha ones and the media (people like you) are!!!!

Not worth linking to because it is paywalled.
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December 12, 2023 9:15am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  The return of rent a mob.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:59am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Did they ever go away?
    
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    December 12, 2023 4:02pm
- Blog-aholic
  
  No, that would be Labour who without mandate foisted the language upon New Zealand with a socio-lingusitic eugenics program that 85%+ of New Zealanders saw as totally unnecessary and frankly inappropriate.
  
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  December 12, 2023 10:36am
- kowtow
  
  yer I couldn’t be bothered sullying myself with reading his crap.
  
  Suffice to say he never ran a propaganda piece like that against the Ardernist regime’s “culture wars” against the tax paying working New Zealand public.
  
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  December 12, 2023 11:20am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

A metaphor. Trump compares the snake with the border.

https://www.thepoliticalglobe.com/president-trump-captivates-audience-with-the-snake-recital-at-prestigious-republican-gala/?
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December 12, 2023 9:17am
70andstilllearning

Oh dear – too bad, so sad –
“Climate advocates are warning the COP28 summit could be on the cusp of failure after a new draft of the core agreement removed a call to phase out fossil fuels, the main driver of the crisis. ”
The usual greenies howling as normal …

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2023/12/cop28-countries-fail-to-agree-on-fossil-fuel-phase-out-climate-change-advocates-furious.html
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December 12, 2023 9:19am
- Benedict Yu
  
  “a call to phase out fossil fuels”
  
  That drives me nuts. Petroleum consumption is at a record high. It is expected to peak around 2030. Gas – the same – it might peak around 2040. NOTHING that the COP28 conference resolves will change a damn thing. Oil and gas production are a function of oil and gas demand.
  
  I am fairly sure that the investors who have sunk $A 300 billion into the Australian LNG industry over the last 10 years are not too worried about the impact of COP28 on their investments.
  
  BTW – COP resolutions work on a ‘consensus’ basis. It is not majority rules. If even one nation member disagrees with the draft resolution text, then it cannot be adopted.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:30am
  - peterwn
    
    It is going to be ‘other people’ who would have to bear the brunt of phasing out fossil fuels. Not politicians nor other privileged people (yes, I mean you James Shaw and co).
    
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    December 12, 2023 9:35am
    - Cassandra
      
      How do they get home if fossil fuel is removed? Hold on, I’ve just had a brainwave……………….
      
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      December 12, 2023 10:00am
  - imalwaysright
    
    “If even one nation member disagrees with the draft resolution text, then it cannot be adopted”
    
    That’s the model of an organisation designed purely for its own existence .
    
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    December 12, 2023 1:08pm
- krazykiwi
  
  Those eco-death cultists are like turkeys complaining that Christmas has been canceled. Watching them weeping and wailing brings a spring to my step.
  
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  December 12, 2023 9:38am
  - 70andstilllearning
    
    Lol. The ” ‘Verge of complete failure’: Fury as COP28 draft doesn’t …. ” clickbait header was just too much to resist on this occasion 🙂
    
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    December 12, 2023 9:52am
- Inandout
  
  70,’ COP28 is the biggest climate conference ever held with some 97,000 politicians, diplomats, journalists and campaigners registered for the meeting’,
  This number is ridiculous and makes a complete mockery of the whole climate circus.
  
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  December 12, 2023 10:23am
  - 70andstilllearning
    
    Indeed – suspect it would be well < 1% of that number if getting there wasn't 'enabled ' by OPM of one sort or another, and as DPF pointed out a little while back, would have avoided ~600,000 tonnes of CO2 emmissions.
    
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    December 12, 2023 10:52am
  - rockape
    
    97 thousand delegates add 300 thousand support workers to that.
    
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    December 12, 2023 11:15am
  - kowtow
    
    People need to wake up to the fact that this UN bollocks has nothing to do with the weather and everything to do with subjugation of the free , productive people of the west to a neo marxist/corporatist fascist conspiracy .
    
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    December 12, 2023 11:17am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    It is astounding. I went to three of these conferences about 20 years ago. IIRC there were about 7,000 attendees.
    
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    December 12, 2023 3:43pm
- Paulus
  
  Very difficult and inconclusive outcome from Cop28 after two weeks deliberations and speeches without satisfactory conclusions to some.
  So !
  Where and when is the next conference for a similar 100,000 participants ?
  Middle East I expect.
  Think of the Jets, the 5 star Hotels, the food, the drink, and the girls.
  
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  December 12, 2023 2:10pm
  - Benedict Yu
    
    November 2024. In Azerbaijan. A major oil and gas producer. 🙂 The president – Ilham Aliyev – is kind of a dictator. There are ‘elections’ but they are reportedly fraudulent.
    
    https://www.politico.eu/article/azerbaijan-baku-host-cop29-climate-conference-agreement-uae-fossil-fuels/
    
    Each of the regions of the world gets a turn. Next year is the ‘turn’ of Eastern Europe. That is why the COP is being held in Azerbaijan.
    
    I guess the good news is that it can never be held in New Zealand because there is no venue remotely large enough. It has never been held in Australia for that matter.
    
    BTW when I attended the conferences, the food was bland and repetitive. There were no girls either 🙁 The flash food is reserved for a very tiny elite minority of attendees.
    
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    December 12, 2023 3:54pm
ClanMcleod

Warning – covid post. (for those poor people who tell me they find this stuff a bit boring, move on to the next post.)

The slow reveal of evidence and recognition of malfeasance during the last (almost) 4 years of the covid era is moving from a trickle to a steady flow.

A superb watch.

This video is from the German Parliament, a German Professor gets to educate the politicians on the reality of what was done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq2TZPEWjcA

Professor Homburg schools the German Bundestag (Parliament) on Covid Madness – unmissable official address to the country! It’s in German but subtitles are crisp.

It’s compelling information.

Then this prime example of the suppression and censorship of anyone and anything daring challenge this collapsing narrative.

In the recent Republican candidate debate live on TV, the feed suddenly went black and 8 minutes of content went ‘missing’. This is live American TV!!

Covid vaccines & operation warp speed was cut from the live feed of the latest republican debate.

This is what was blacked out from the American public.

https://x.com/wolsned/status/1733418258642993633?s=20

If msm and their big pharma pay masters didn’t want you to see it, then it’s probably worth sharing.

One last one, it looks like Andrew Bridgen is no longer the only MP in the UK parliament to speak out.

https://x.com/andreajenkyns/status/1733806656671064232?s=20

When will NZ be allowed out from under the rock we’ve been pushed under? We’ve had a couple of squeaks from Peters and I know it’s early days. But the absolute refusal to even admit there MIGHT be a problem from everyone else in parliament is of the highest concern.

As for the msm, they are beyond a joke, they are now actively guilty of supporting malfeasance and crimes against humanity.

This trickle will soon become a flood. Watch for the ‘jersey changers’ coming out of the woodwork, watch as many whine “but we didn’t know!”

The longer this goes on, the less chance of that bs excuse being accepted. You MPs and shills in the msm who deep down know for a fact there are problems, best you speak up really soon.
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December 12, 2023 9:44am
- ClanMcleod
  
  And to the downtickers, grow a pair. Tell us what you dislike about what I’ve posted and why.
  
  Then go and apologise to all the people, friends and family members you undoubtedly disowned and abused for not falling for this as hard as you did.
  
  Make it genuine. Then we might be able to move on.
  
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  December 12, 2023 10:34am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    As expected, tumbleweed. Cowards, every last one. Just like Ardern.
    
    I’ll live comfortably with my conscience, good luck with yours – and your boosters.
    
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    December 12, 2023 11:28am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Thanks for the links Clan,
      You won’t get a counterargument from the down tickers. If they are still clinging to their records of obedient compliance and self righteousness then their reasoning is clearly suspect anyway, so down ticks are their remaining currency.
      Speaking of such, Plunket did his usual party trick when Steve Kirsch rang in to discuss the health data.
      A ridiculous and ignorant performance by a petulant onanist.
      
      Brennan does a good interview with Kirsch here
      https://realitycheck.radio/steve-kirsch-on-the-nz-whistleblower-data-exposure-and-the-international-controversy-that-followed/
      
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      December 12, 2023 12:41pm
      - ClanMcleod
        
        imalwaysright – cheers. I won’t give Plunket oxygen but the comments on Twitter have been scathing.
        
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        December 12, 2023 4:07pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Downtickers tell us what they dislike?
    Nope, they are keyboard warrior cowards. Some have a pair but we have no microscopes here sorry.
    Even I fuck up, then admit the mistake. (Did so today)
    
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    December 12, 2023 4:22pm
Blog-aholic

Asking for an interested friend.
In 1840 how many of the chiefs who signed the TOW would be able to read? Given that the language was only recently alphabetised…

If they could not read because they had no written language then the TOW would have been explained to them orally either by peers or other maori speakers.

If that is the case then surely they understood very clearly what it was and what it meant?
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December 12, 2023 9:48am
- kowtow
  
  Of course they did .
  And they had missionairies on their side there to explain it all too.
  
  The chiefs would also have known that colonisation was inevitable and the Brits were the best bet .
  
  They ceded sovereignty knowingly to HM the Queen.
  
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  December 12, 2023 11:02am
Maggie Pie

Unfortunately, I can’t locate ZB Wellington on my BUSH.
By all accounts, sounds like Tory’s interview was an absolute shocker!! 😛

Anyone able to post the audio-link?

https://twitter.com/Suitandtie9999/status/1734305119905476921
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December 12, 2023 9:57am
- thirteenstars
  
  Below that tweet I saw this from Cam Slater, hilarious. I hope it’s real:
  
  https://twitter.com/kaiviti_cam/status/1734108517207064941
  
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  December 12, 2023 10:13am
- nathie
  
  Should be this one. Can you post a review of it please?!!
  
  https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/wellington/wellington-mornings-with-nick-mills/audio/tory-whanau-wellingtons-mayor-on-her-drinking-problem-commits-to-a-life-of-sobriety/
  
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  December 12, 2023 10:21am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Thx Nathie!
    Actually, politics aside, she sounds like my type of gal. Smart, articulate, and comes across as quite self-deprecating.
    Would be stoked to have her at a girls lunch. Only prob she’s given up drinking!
    
    What we should do – is send Wayne to Wellington to run things for say 3 months…. and bring Tory up here. A culture shock for both parties 😛
    
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    December 12, 2023 12:10pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Bring her up here? No way. There are enough pisspots up here already, especially on the Shore – not saying who…..
      
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      December 12, 2023 4:35pm
Fisiani2

In the next 6 working days at Parliament the new government will start getting the economy under control. By Easter the changes will be apparent and NZ starts becoming the great country it should be.
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December 12, 2023 10:20am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Easter means the year is already 1/4 done.
  1/12th of the 3 year term. Arse into gear guys, there should be some campaigning for 2026. Maybe those who missed out on a list seat?
  Arse into gear, this is not a ferry-go-round where you jump on and off as you please.
  
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  December 12, 2023 4:40pm
Inandout

If Luxon thinks the road ahead is bumpy then you have to feel for this guy in Argentina.
https://theweek.com/politics/argentina-new-far-right-president-economy-dollarize
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December 12, 2023 10:31am
- Paulus
  
  Difference is that Luxon is a Professional Person and not a Political Hack !
  He has much experience and will roll with the media denigration for existing.
  
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  December 12, 2023 2:13pm
  - MCōs
    
    He’s in the business of politics now, which is not the same as the politics of business
    
    1 0
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    December 12, 2023 6:43pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  Back in the day I spent about 2 months in Argentina on an extended vacation. It was probably the most enjoyable vacation I have ever had. It had the potential to be a prosperous, successful country but was ruined by politicians. That is why I have commented here about New Zealand “going down the Argentinian road”. The current government may be the last chance to stop that route.
  
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  December 12, 2023 4:18pm
  - Ian Boag
    
    Had its ups and downs. First time we went, they had pegged the peso to the USD (1:1) and as the NZD was 50c US at the time, everything was VERY expensive. Still a cool place …
    
    The second time we went it was 3 pesos to 1NZD. Everything was very cheap and the people were doing it all hard. We stayed in 3 star hotel in BA for NZD120/night including a big brekky. The night before we had eaten a couple of top-grade steaks plus dessert and a bottle of the local plonk for NZD100. It was a bit how Pom tourists felt coming to NZ when 1NZD was 30 UKP …
    
    For anyone thinking of a visit I recommend Iguazu (top right corner) and Salta (top left corner). Then there was Bariloche which is Queenstown in Spanish 🙂 Ah nostalgia isn’t what it once was.
    
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    December 12, 2023 5:22pm
    - MCōs
      
      I’ve never felt inclined to go to South America
      One of my sisters went to some sort of conference in El Salvador in 2017. Murder capital of the known universe. She told me whenever they went somewhere a bus load of armed constabulary escorted them.
      
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      December 12, 2023 6:39pm
BeaB

Interesting how the members of the new government are quoted carefully with all their ‘gonna’ s’ and ‘you know’s’ Funny we never saw in print Jacinda’s ‘somethink’ or ‘jeoprardy’.
The media’s protestations that they are unbiased are undermined daily by their tone, loaded language and emphases. Just look at the patronising and insidious way they portray Luxon. For instance, he never asks, he ‘pleads’.
I am eagerly awaiting the day when they dump TVNZ and make RNZ revert to being a news radio station with occasional music. That would save us millions and bring down my blood pressure. In the meantime I switch off from yet another totally partisan interview or smugly leftwing middle class panel.
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December 12, 2023 10:51am
- Blog-aholic
  
  Don’t for get communiddy and opportuniddy….
  
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  December 12, 2023 11:05am
  - Ian Boag
    
    JK was pretty big on gunna …. and “I don’t recall”
    
    1 5
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    December 12, 2023 5:24pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      That was ‘gunna’ David Lange.
      Sorry, too many young on this blog 🙂
      
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      December 12, 2023 5:31pm
      - Ian Boag
        
        Both of them then ….
        
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        December 12, 2023 5:33pm
- Swifty
  
  Another one I’ve noticed lately is that nobody just speaks on something anymore, rather he or she ‘breaks silence’.
  
  I see it all the time now.
  
  It’s just pathetic.
  
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  December 12, 2023 11:15am
  - Paulus
    
    Difficult as I just break wind !
    
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    December 12, 2023 2:14pm
krazykiwi

No 100-Day plan. No changing leaders while leaving the woke/dysfunctional/broken organisation untouched.

I suggest Luxon at al should keep their eyes on Argentina, because President Javier Milei reduces ministries from 18 to nine on first day in office.

Resource rich Argentina is a basket-case, an exemplar of socialist failings. New Zealand is heading there unless someone step up to arrest the slide. Is that Luxon? I wish I could be confident that it is he, but despite a few good signals I’ve yet to see the kind of bold economic and cultural reformation that will be needed. At best the new government is a brake on our current trajectory.
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December 12, 2023 11:15am
- Scott
  
  I’m very happy with the new government which is exceeding all my expectations.
  The move back to New Zealand and away from the people’s socialist Republic of Aotearoa is well under way.
  We need to put all of our support and encouragement to the new government in my opinion.
  
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  December 12, 2023 11:43am
  - krazykiwi
    
    “The move back to New Zealand and away from the people’s socialist Republic of Aotearoa is well under way.”
    
    I beg to differ. Our trajectory is unchanged, but the brakes have been applied which is encouraging but it is not enough.
    
    16 2
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    December 12, 2023 12:36pm
    - Paulus
      
      The media are going out of themselves to make sure that more Maori names etc continue and the name New Zealand appears to no longer exist.
      They believe that that will upset the new MMP Government that they voted against it being lefty socialists
      They should get real as this what we voted for !
      
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      December 12, 2023 2:18pm
  - MCōs
    
    New Zealand is a social democracy no matter who’s in charge.
    
    5 1
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    December 12, 2023 3:06pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      And, what is your definition of “social democracy” in your own succinct words (the short version)?
      
      I’d describe the last 6 years as an attempt at a revolution or coup.
      
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      December 12, 2023 7:20pm
Maggie Pie

OMG!

The number of people calling into Kerry Woodham and losing their sh*t
about the reintroduction of ’90-day-trial-periods’.

LOL!!

Like my partner says: “If it isn’t hurting – It isn’t working”
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December 12, 2023 11:20am
- Inandout
  
  Maggie, come the end of the Rural Show at 1pm come the kia ora kai…whatever chaps and this is where the music station kicks in.
  
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  December 12, 2023 1:37pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  “Like my partner says: “If it isn’t hurting – It isn’t working””
  
  Sounds kind of disturbing.
  
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  December 12, 2023 7:22pm
krazykiwi

Ooops. Caught with flagrant plagiarism in her doctoral thesis, Claudine Gay, the first black president of Harvard, responds with: –

“I stand by the integrity of my scholarship. Throughout my career, I have worked to ensure my scholarship adheres to the highest academic standards.”

To be clear she didn’t deny plagiarism. I suspect this will topple her leading to:
Reality: 1
Diversity: 0
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December 12, 2023 11:31am
- Inandout
  
  krazy, as they say ‘follow the money’ and in this case the major donors to Harvard will see her demise as the hundreds of millions of dollars in pledges are withdrawn.
  
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  December 12, 2023 1:40pm
  - MCōs
    
    Harvard has operating expenses of $5.9 billion in fiscal year 2023
    
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    December 12, 2023 2:35pm
    - Inandout
      
      MC, the donor list is vast but many are Jewish. I wouldn’t think the UAR would care but many other donors hopefully have a conscience.
      https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/2/26/donor-honor-roll/
      
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      December 12, 2023 3:28pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Now how far is Jaspinda up that ladder of plagiarism?
  There will be an opening to United Nations – will she run from Harvard?
  Seems to be a Doctor….
  
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  December 12, 2023 5:44pm
Damocles11

Wow, a quarter of a million ‘new Kiwi’s’ have arrived in just 1 year to put further strain on our gp’s, hospitals, schools, roads, and other creaking infrastructure. This country has become a giant mad house.

‘New Zealand’s immigration boom continues to smash all records, with 245,600 migrant arrivals and a net migration gain of 128,900 in the October 2023 year – the highest on record for an annual period, Stats NZ said today.’
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December 12, 2023 11:34am
- John Loveridge
  
  I can’t see how it can possibly be seen as good news. One of the problems is the generally low quality of the arrivals. I can’t see what the country is going to do with another quarter of a million Uber drivers.
  
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  December 12, 2023 12:39pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Indeed. Immigration has increased GDP overall while GDP per capita has declined. the average skills level of new migrants has been consistently lower than the average skill level of NZers overall.
    
    15 3
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    December 12, 2023 2:23pm
    - ISeeRed
      
      Upticked! Now, who the hell are you and what have you done with our mikey?!
      
      8 1
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      December 12, 2023 2:33pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Um. I think Mike had a holiday, and has been quiet for a while. Nothing for a few weeks and now he is in troll control again.
        Steve has been wrong sometimes……
        
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        December 12, 2023 5:49pm
    - Jack5
      
      Population statistics from the UN – by 2021:
      
      – 828 million people suffered from hunger.
      
      – About round 2.3 billion people (29.3 of the world) were “moderately or severely food insecure”.
      
      – At least 108.4 million people around the world have been forced to flee their homes. Among them are nearly 35.3 million refugees, 41 per cent of them under 18.
      
      And Labour’s fools opened the border to an insurge, mainly of low-skilled people.
      
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      December 12, 2023 2:48pm
ClanMcleod

Al Gore says that people having access to information outside of mainstream media sources is a threat to “democracy” and that social media algorithms “ought to be banned.”

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/al-gore-warns-people-having-access-non-mainstream-information-threatens-democracy?utm_source=

Just like Ardern and her UN speech stating that free speech is a weapon of war.
Like the ‘hate speech’ legislation being pushed through everywhere.

It’s clear that this is the next battleground if we want to have any semblance of true democracy left in the coming years. Democracy is under threat everywhere, globalism is creeping into absolutely everything, everywhere.

The agendas that have many people bewildered are that way deliberately. DIE, LGBTQ+, climate protesters, BLM, gender, race. None of these movements are organic. All of them are well funded by wealthy people with an agenda.

Confused, worried and frightened people are easy to control. Don’t be confused, worried or frightened. Just say ‘NO’ to all of this garbage at every opportunity.
Don’t fall for the divisive tactics, but call them out at every opportunity, because they are always weak arguments and transparently fake.

Like the circus from TPM in the NZ Parliament last week and that idiot with the feather duster on his head.
There is not a chance that that plastic fraud represent the majority of Maori.

We’re in a war which we’ll win, but we need to stay focused and ignore the baiting and distractions.
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December 12, 2023 11:39am
- Blog-aholic
  
  Free speech is and inconvenient truth to people like Gore and Ardern.
  
  Having a populace that thinks for themselves makes their ability to profit from their narrative more difficult.
  
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  December 12, 2023 11:42am
Ghost

Oh please. There was never going to be a honeymoon due to the corrupt and biased media throwing their toys out of the cot that their parties didn’t get elected. This is to be expected with the media and the opposition abusing their positions, inventing and lying. I expect because of how the media and opposition are behaving we may very well see our first assassination of a politician

Honeymoon over: Christopher Luxon drops, NZ First overtakes Act in new poll
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December 12, 2023 12:19pm
- Gravelroad
  
  The stages of facing the devastating loss of power and entrenched influence:
  Shock
  Denial
  Grief
  Anger
  Networking
  Activism
  Overthrow
  Revenge
  
  What stage are they at so far?
  
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  December 12, 2023 12:39pm
  - Nickc2
    
    Activism.
    They’re not quite at the Overthrow phase yet, but according to some activists, they’re prepared for it.
    IMO, the Overthrow phase will not be entered prior to or during the Christmas season, but preparations for it will be enhanced during the break.
    
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    December 12, 2023 12:42pm
- peterwn
  
  Chris Luxon drops 33% to 30% which is insignificant and does not deserve a headline. Actually a drop to the 20’s during 2024 and 2025 would not be a bad thing especially when there will inevitably a few bumps along the way.
  
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  December 12, 2023 12:53pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    ACT at 6%
    
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    December 12, 2023 1:32pm
- Pope Punctilious II
  
  Hipkins’ net favourability is +9%
  
  What is wrong with this country? How hopeless does Hipkins have to be to get into negative net favourability?
  
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  December 12, 2023 1:18pm
  - Jack5
    
    It’s just a poll.
    
    Even if it accurately reflects voter opinion, the Luxon dip of three percentage points may be near the limit of the effect of news media’s Left bias.
    
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    December 12, 2023 3:02pm
Bobba Fret

This interview with Tory Whanau on Newstalk ZB is worth a listen. She says she has given up drinking, but when asked if she is caught again would she resign. Oh no. she couldn’t commit to resigning if getting caught a third time!

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/wellington/wellington-mornings-with-nick-mills/audio/tory-whanau-wellingtons-mayor-on-her-drinking-problem-commits-to-a-life-of-sobriety/
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December 12, 2023 12:33pm
- Gravelroad
  
  Have listened.
  A high maintenance, self absorbed person with a drinking problem. In denial.
  No professional demeanour as a Mayor of a capital city.
  Glad she is not the mayor here.
  
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  December 12, 2023 12:48pm
Benedict Yu

The journalist cannot contain his excitement..

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/honeymoon-over-christopher-luxon-takes-a-dive-nz-first-overtakes-act-in-new-poll/NTXYYSEQBNCN7MJD3THKJXGRVA/

“Christopher Luxon takes a dive”.. because in some poll his rating as “preferred Prime Minister” has dropped from 33 percent to 30 percent.
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December 12, 2023 12:55pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Yes, and ACT down to 6 while NZF up to 8
  
  6 0
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  December 12, 2023 1:33pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Hahagaga, Luxon was at two public outings in Auckland this weekend, apparently he was mobbed at both, and one was to Otara markets
  
  13 0
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  December 12, 2023 1:34pm
kevn

BY… Pathetic tone deaf media in plain sight.
Like broken records.
11 2
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December 12, 2023 1:11pm
Bobba Fret

“A Hamilton mother who shot at police and a member of the public to help her ram-raiding children escape arrest says she was simply trying to “over-parent” after she missed a lot of their upbringing while in jail.”
I’m lost for words. What hope is there with people like this out there. And to think she is allowed to vote.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/mum-shot-at-police-to-help-ram-raiding-kids-escape-to-make-up-for-poor-past-parenting/AXW4CB6ADFEDJO6HS33RJWL3ZY/
25 1
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December 12, 2023 1:37pm
- ISeeRed
  
  WTF is a “Open Justice multimedia journalist”? Whatever happened to “crime reporter”?
  
  9 1
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  December 12, 2023 2:36pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    ISeeRed: “WTF is a “Open Justice multimedia journalist”? ”
    
    Another woke newspeak invention?
    
    8 0
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    December 12, 2023 7:29pm
Ghost

In question time when Debbie Ngarewa-Packer asked her first question after Winston replied did she mumble bloody hell?
9 1
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December 12, 2023 2:36pm
- Ghost
  
  So far the video hasn’t been put online
  
  https://ondemand.parliament.nz/parliament-tv-on-demand/
  
  3 0
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  December 12, 2023 3:58pm
goNZ1

Dear KBers – for those unable to watch 2pm Q-time today, I can solemnly say it is exciting stuff,best for years.lively and the Opposition beside themselves as go thru the 7 stages of grief – Anger at the moment…
15 1
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December 12, 2023 2:55pm
- Chuck Bird
  
  I watched and was impressed with Peters.
  
  The results from the latest poll are interesting.
  
  Support for Christopher Luxon drops, NZ First overtakes Act in new poll
  
  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/honeymoon-over-christopher-luxon-takes-a-dive-nz-first-overtakes-act-in-new-poll/NTXYYSEQBNCN7MJD3THKJXGRVA/
  
  6 0
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  December 12, 2023 3:50pm
  - Ian Boag
    
    NZ First overtakes Act in new poll
    
    So what? The next poll that matters is three years off ..
    
    5 3
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    December 12, 2023 5:28pm
goNZ1

and also TPM got a drubbing from Peters – a joy to behold it was too!
10 1
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December 12, 2023 3:18pm
Maggie Pie

Here’s a question….

Does anyone have any idea what Phil Goff and Trevor Mallard actually DO all day?

What pergormance accountability is applied to them, in order to justify their multi-million dollar appointments funded by us, the taxpayer ?

We can’t remember the last time we heard from either of the useless arsehats.
11 1
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December 12, 2023 3:24pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  “An ambassador is the highest-ranking diplomatic officer, designated by the government as its resident representative in a foreign state or before an international organization. The primary duties of ambassadors are to maintain diplomatic relations with the receiving state and promote foreign policy strategies through international organizations. Among other responsibilities, ambassadors ensure the security of their state citizens living in the receiving country, seek to build and maintain strong diplomatic and economic ties with foreign nations, and administer all the affairs of the embassy. States commonly have ambassadors in most countries with which they have diplomatic relations, and the embassy is usually located in the host country’s capital.”
  
  https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/ambassador#:~:text=The%20primary%20duties%20of%20ambassadors,policy%20strategies%20through%20international%20organizations.
  
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  December 12, 2023 3:38pm
- Libertarians are right
  
  “We can’t remember the last time we heard from either of the useless arsehats.”
  
  That’s what they do. They’re being paid to be kept out of our hair.
  
  7 0
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  December 12, 2023 3:39pm
- Ghost
  
  Trevor works very hard, well at least he did when labour were still in government. His mission to Ireland was to locate the Leprechaun and to steal their gold so that Grant could pay off his debt. Not sure what he doing now.
  
  6 0
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  December 12, 2023 3:43pm
  - fightingtemeraire
    
    He is the Ambassador Extraordinary and the Minister Plenipotentiary to St James’ Gate. The home of Guinness.
    
    6 0
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    December 12, 2023 6:21pm
Swifty

Diversity is our strength!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12852075/outrage-Muslim-parents-Renaissance-painting-nude-women-French-class-crisis-teachers.html

Yes, the less we have in common the stronger we are!

//
10 0
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December 12, 2023 3:47pm
Benedict Yu

Just finished watching Question Time. What fun 🙂

The Opposition brought a knife to a gun fight 🙂

BTW what is this thing with MPs looking like they are heading down to the club for a beer? Grant Robertson is a disgrace. No tie. Looks like he is bursting out of his suit. Some Green MP looking like a homeless person. 🙁
19 1
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December 12, 2023 4:45pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  You can bet Elf-on-the-Shelf will come in for a right old earbashing tonite.
  
  9 1
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  December 12, 2023 5:00pm
- kowtow
  
  Still wearing their pro terror tea towels I see .
  Then the maoris with cowboy hats .
  And the labourites w/o ties.
  
  What a shit show of disrespect . Would they be so disrespectful at a marae or other such august institution.
  
  9 0
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  December 12, 2023 7:31pm
MCōs

If you don’t know the background to this story then look it up
https://x.com/ananavarro/status/1734424606411235726?s=61&t=yFkzCNMWRCaVt1p5eRxUog
1 9
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December 12, 2023 5:15pm
Chris Nisbet

Did anybody else do a little jig at the announcement that the unreasonable speed limits are going to be given the kibosh?
NZActional must be having such fun undoing the f*ckuppery inflicted on us by Labour.
23 2
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December 12, 2023 5:17pm
- MCōs
  
  Not the kind of news that would cause me to get all emotional!
  
  6 8
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  December 12, 2023 5:54pm
- sungsamning
  
  I did.
  
  4 1
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  December 12, 2023 8:28pm

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