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December 9, 2023 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 09 December 2023

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General Debate

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CJames

The legacy media is trumpeting all these Cabinet paper leaks which basically you can’t kill the favoured policies of the elites. First it is no surprise that the Departments don’t want their wings clipped. Second, what is the bet that the leak is not from politicians or their staff, but from a number of disgruntled Green/ Labour voting department employees? Ones who see themselves as a modern day Pentagon Papers discloser, rather than spoilt brats.
Government often disregard the advice of Departments. Sometimes for good, sometimes for bad reasons. However, departments often get it wrong. They also do not like anyone changing their mindset. This is especially so with their current woke incarnation where the hoi polloi are reactionaries too thick to see the error of their ways.
And why didn’t this every get reported during the last three years? Reason 257 why journalists are below used cars sales people in esteem.
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December 9, 2023 8:01am
- Spam
  
  And who’s even to say that the department advice is good advice? If staffers are biased enough to leak papers when they’re unhappy with the government policies, it stands to reason that some staffers may write policy advice that reflects their own biases.
  
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  December 9, 2023 8:12am
  - G152
    
    Find the leakers, charge them with their crime so theyll only work when the left is in power.
    6 months inside should be a warning to others
    
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    December 9, 2023 8:15am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      If only. Public Sector employees are untouchable atm.
      
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      December 9, 2023 9:19am
      - Grunter
        
        Unless it is about COVID death jabs. Then you get instantly arrested and charged within days.
        
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        December 9, 2023 9:33am
    - ClanMcleod
      
      Maybe treat them like the jab database leaker? Sounds like a plan to me.
      
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      December 9, 2023 9:45am
    - kowtow
      
      Interesting to compare how the legacy media treat the guy who allegedly leaked /stole govt data as some sort of dastardly fiend ( along with what they describe as his “conspiracy theorist” allies ) as opposed to these people who’re treated as “sources” or concerned types .
      
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      December 9, 2023 11:16am
      - Jake Dee
        
        I have a whistle blower.
        He has a leaker.
        They are all spies.
        
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        December 9, 2023 4:15pm
  - pdm
    
    It is not the Government policies Spam.
    
    It is the annihilation of Labour that the Civil Servants are most unhappy with.
    
    Time for a clean out.
    
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    December 9, 2023 8:38am
    - kowtow
      
      “Gone by lunch time” .
      
      That’d teach ’em.
      
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      December 9, 2023 11:17am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Penalties are needed. ATM it is a free-for-all.
    Do what you like and stuff everyone else.
    
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    December 9, 2023 8:39am
- TripeWryter
  
  A subeditor might have asked Thomas Coughlan: ‘Hey, Thomas, you say in your story that the government has been ‘rocked’ by a leak.
  But you give no evidence of ‘rocked’. Who is ‘rocked’? What does ‘rocked’ look like?
  In your first story about a leak you said the government was ‘shaken’. Same questions.
  What will you write next: ‘the government is ‘reeling’?
  Perhaps you could stick to the facts as you know them – someone has leaked a document.’
  
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  December 9, 2023 8:15am
  - Swifty
    
    I quite agree.
    
    It’s just infantile as well as factually incorrect hyperbole.
    
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    December 9, 2023 9:14am
  - nathie
    
    It’s a bit of a shame – Thomas Coughlan was quite balanced when he was writing for Stuff and one of their better journos (top 1 or 2). Now that he works for NZH he’s going somewhat tabloid at times. C’mon Thomas, back to your roots man!
    
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    December 9, 2023 9:27am
    - Tauhei Notts
      
      I wondered if it was just a minor slight on the new leader of the NZ Transport Agency that Coughlan would repeatedly spell her name wrongly. Just put the knife in and give it a gentle twist.
      It’s Crowley, not Cowley.
      
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      December 9, 2023 10:09am
      - TripeWryter
        
        Tauhei: to be fair to him he might have received the name as Cowley and didn’t know it was Crowley.
        He also might have been in a hurry to get the story up.
        Even so, as numerous, sometimes shouting and bellowing chief reporters used to tell young reporters, ‘You double check a person’s name. Then double-check again.’
        Those were the days when chief reporters and chief subs could bellow at a reporter and no-one would think they were being bullied …
        And no-one gave a fuck about the frailty of your mental health.
        
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        December 9, 2023 10:34am
      - Beach Haven expat
        
        Absolutely bang on @TrypeWryter – and the checking so much easier with the Google machine.
        Only one point I’d tweak: “Those were the days when there were chief reporters and chief subs who could bellow at a reporter and no-one would think they were being bullied …”
        
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        December 9, 2023 8:35pm
  - R
    
    Thomas doesn’t actually have, or know of any facts. He only interviews and investigates his keyboard.
    
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    December 9, 2023 10:30am
- peterwn
  
  As things go, the leaks are trivial but are a nasty irritation for Ministers. The media would just love to see Chris and co leap up and down with rage over this. The trick is not to ‘bite’ (unless the leak is the sort of thing where someone could get a financial advantage, there is a serious privacy breach etc). Instead just quietly investigate the circumstances of the leak to the extent reasonably possible – the leaker will probably do it again then get caught.
  
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  December 9, 2023 8:17am
- Clyde
  
  Quite clear that these leaks to the biased MSM are from public servants who need to come to grips with the second word of their title – servants. I would like to see these troughers who believe that their biased opinions are more worthy than those of the elected policy makers outed and turfed out. As complicit are the so-called politically neutral MSM reporters.
  
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  December 9, 2023 8:41am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Deadwood that has been there for sometimes decades.
    You can change the Govt but the cancer is still there. Sack them all, and re-employ on a qualifications and history basis.
    
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    December 9, 2023 9:24am
    - blue collar
      
      That’s the spirit steveo !
      I’ll personally supply the DCM envelopes free of charge !
      
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      December 9, 2023 10:18am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        There’s over 60,000 of them.
        
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        December 9, 2023 11:57am
- nathie
  
  Compare and contrast. Cast one’s mind back to the ~~error~~ era of the 2017-2020 Ardern government.
  
  If anyone dared to leak against the newly appointed people’s saintly government back then, the “mood” of leftie journos and blogs was one of implying said leaker was an enemy of the people’s state! Hunt them down and cancel them!
  
  Nowadays it’s full glee from them … business has returned to usual so-to-speak.
  
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  December 9, 2023 8:55am
- lastmanstanding
  
  I see little hope of many of the new Governments policies being carried out. Why. Well you only have to watch Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister to understand Government officials have a 1001 ways to defeat the Minister without making it obvious. Viewers of both programmes will be aware of what I am talking about. Cunning and guile are the trademarks of any successful Government official who has risen high in the ranks. First they tell the Minister the policy is “courageous”. This is shorthand for ‘it will lose you votes”. If that doesnt work then its time to come up with detail to delay the policy including the need for Working Parties (remember them) White or Green Papers, consultation and focus groups. The idea is to frustrate and confuse the Minister until they forget the policy they were trying to enact. Watch and learn.
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:51am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Both leaks have been from ministries that know these papers, both times they have stated 1000s of people had access to these papers, notice no Leaks about disagreements or word’s mentioned in cabinet, both have been around not listening to the so called expert advice, something Labour did on most fronts
  
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  December 9, 2023 12:15pm
- bjools
  
  Par for the course, whenever Labour lose the Benches.
  
  It took John Ky a year to weed out the leakers planted by Helen Clark.
  It may take that long to do the same for Chris Luxon.
  
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  December 9, 2023 12:54pm
Warren

Labour have committed Political fraud on a scale never seen in New Zealand before with their lies and deciet with what they have done on Three Waters, Transport funding and and the state of the books that have been left for our Children , Grandchildren and Great Grandchildren to pay all because Labour the previous Government and their Prime Minister didn’t and couldn’t control the spending problem this Government’s MP’s had.
They controlled the media with the $55
Million bribe and let Finance Minister Grant Robertson loose to make sure National , never had a chance to know what they were leaving for them if the achieved power, so really it won’t happen but someone has to pay for what has happened and the media has to be
censured for the roll they have played as the power they gained by Labours deciet will take decades to put right.
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December 9, 2023 8:01am
- JackRabbit
  
  Warren,
  
  Just as Robertson has found a lot of nooks and crannies in which to hide debt, he will have also found lots of nooks and crannies (crooks and nannies?) to siphon off money in the form of conflict of interest contractors, consultants, iwi payments, bribing the whole country with Covid payments, Covis jobs, Vaccine jobs, WEF/Pfizer pocket pissing, extra communication (propaganda) staff, excess govt service employees, etc etc.
  
  Anecdotal and reported in the media of $22k to paint a pedestrian crossing in colour; council contracts for roadworks in the hundreds of thousands, and actual work completed in a morning.
  
  Said Pedestrian crossing painting (which in itself is a waste of money) could have been painted by senior year school children (from my generation) as a day project for sandwiches and orange juice, and a generous $500 donation to the school opera fund.
  
  At our school, several senior classes were engaged for a few hours each to help lay tiles on the inside of the new swimming pool.
  
  Iced orange juice and sausage rolls and a day’s work experience was our pay.
  
  Robbo borrowed or printed $19Bn in late Nov 2019, knowing it would be needed before the 2020 budget, for bribing NZ with Covid Theatre.
  
  A mate has suggested that based on the pattern, he thinks the total cost of bribes, not just to the PJIF, is the bulk of the $100Bn debt we now have. It was all unnecessary spending.
  
  Just as Willis is finding lots of undisclosed govt debt in SOE mouse holes, there will also be lots of dodgy payments that have gone down one way rabbit holes. If would take a full time team of auditors years to uncover it all, and none of it would retrievable.
  
  So best to just move on, and make what they find public, defund all media, and keep the fraud uppermost in the minds of the public. As each new fraud is uncovered, it should be published.
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:07am
Yvette

Blatantly cherry-picked quote –
Announcement of New Zealand’s Support for the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples – 20 April 2010

• 7. The Declaration acknowledges the distinctive and important status of indigenous peoples, their common historical experiences and the universal spirit that underpins its text. The Declaration is an affirmation of accepted international human rights and also expresses new, and non-binding, aspirations.

• 8. In moving to support the Declaration, New Zealand both affirms those rights and reaffirms the legal and constitutional frameworks that underpin New Zealand’s legal system. Those existing frameworks, while they will continue to evolve in accordance with New Zealand’s domestic circumstances, define the bounds of New Zealand’s engagement with the aspirational elements of the Declaration.
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/supporting-un-declaration-restores-nzs-mana

History …
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December 9, 2023 8:01am
- JohnRidd
  
  Do you think it was a coincidence that they chose to do this on the birthday of a mid 20th century German dictator?
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:56am
  - Yvette
    
    John, you mean the man who said “To conquer a nation, first disarm its citizens”?
    
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    December 9, 2023 11:43am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Fake quote.
      
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      December 9, 2023 12:49pm
      - Jake Dee
        
        It’s not a fake quote if you say “John, you mean the man who said “To conquer a nation, first disarm its citizens”?” is a quote of Yvette.
        However it is a misattribution if you say it’s a quotation of Hitler.
        But Snopes does have this from Hitler along similar lines
        “The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjugated races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjugated races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let’s not have any native militia or native police.”
        https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/to-conquer-a-nation/
        
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        December 9, 2023 4:22pm
kiwikidsnz

Peter Dunne (of all people) puts his finger on the pulse of Labours deliberate flaw.

https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2023/12/peter-dunne-social-investment.html?m=1
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December 9, 2023 8:02am
imalwaysright

The mainstream media is a de facto political opposition party who are unencumbered by politicians and democratic responsibility .
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December 9, 2023 8:06am
- Vinicius
  
  The TV yesterday was on 1News lunchtime bulletin (not turned on by me but someone else ).
  
  I normally never watch 1News feeble news bulletins but did look at about 10 minutes of it just for a laugh.
  Well the first 3 news item were all biased and bagging the government.
  1. Story about some medical association banging on about the cigarette sales policy.
  2. Some education protesters holding a street protest about the government (they all could have fitted in a toilet of the average sized NZ house).
  3. A story about the governments statements about Gaza. Negatively presented of course.
  
  At no time in these biased news items was any attempt made to present the government’s view, ask the relevant minister to respond.
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:55am
  - stiff cheese
    
    1news are trying to be “The Resistance News”.
    
    Ignoring the new government, their last bulletin put a caption up: “NZTA Waka Kotahi” !? . . Shouldn’t it just be “NZ Transport Agency” ?
    
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    December 9, 2023 12:04pm
    - KiwiSapper
      
      Shouldn’t it just be “NZ Transport Agency” ?
      .
      Close but no. It should be New Zealand Transport Agency. Further, for how much longer have we to endure “RNZ” and when will it revert to Radio New Zealand. That which it was before the discard of New Zealand commenced.
      
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      December 9, 2023 2:20pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  And the vulgar unions, I just wonder how much union fees are going into political sabotage
  
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  December 9, 2023 12:18pm
Philip Hart

I was going to post the same thing. These are not party leaks. This has to be the shortest honeymoon on record. Actually no honeymoon. Every day i open up stuffed/horrid to see another attack piece on the government and a fluff piece on the opposition. The media sit somewhere below pond scum.
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December 9, 2023 8:07am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Best ignore the media, I do.
  Sure I get a certain amount of info, but nit from NZTV, Red Radio, or Tova podcasts etc. My brain thanks me for this.
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:42am
- sirknz
  
  Pond scum actually serves a purpose.
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:50am
Vinicius

Dame Elizabeth Rata has written an opinion piece against indigenisation and tribalism in NZ universities.

She writes:
“Those like myself who support liberalism and oppose decolonisation and indigenisation have been, and have allowed ourselves to be silenced by accusations of racism. It is time to throw off all traces of pusillanimity and seize the opportunity offered by the new government’s commitment to free speech. To be worthy of liberalism’s high ideals, such communication must be grounded not in self-righteous passion but in the argumentative logic of reason.”

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/elizabeth-rata-in-defence-of-the-liberal-university-and-against-indigenisation
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December 9, 2023 8:08am
- Michael Johnston
  
  As much as I’d love to see Elizabeth Rata honoured with a damehood, her actual honorific is ‘Professor.’ She’s in a decreasing minority of academics holding the title that deserve it.
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:43am
  - Vinicius
    
    Thanks for the correction.
    
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    December 9, 2023 9:56am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Another one best ignored. She only gets the post 1975 Waitangi Tribunal James Freeman version.
  If anyone is racist it is her.
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:48am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    I think you have confused Prof. Elizabeth Rata with some other person.
    
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    December 9, 2023 9:52am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      You are correct. I was confused. I went back through Stop Co-Governance and found who I was thinking about. Anne Salmond – activist.
      Apologies to Elizabeth Rata.
      
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      December 9, 2023 10:28am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Anne Salmond – ~~activist~~ anthropologist.
        FIFY
        
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        December 9, 2023 10:34am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Activist Mike.
        
        https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/bruce-moon-systematically-takes-activist-dame-anne-salmonds-history-apar/
        
        https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Bruce-Moons-response-to-Anne-Salmond.pdf
        
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        December 9, 2023 11:21am
- Swifty
  
  Dr Elizabeth Rata – my dream girl.
  
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  December 9, 2023 11:10am
- Pope Punctilious II
  
  I’d love to know the down voter’s rationale.
  
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  December 9, 2023 5:34pm
TripeWryter

I am delighted to learn – at 8am – that NewstalkZB’s news service has found where Kekerengu really is.
It’s a locality in my family’s history. My great-grandfather was the postmaster there.
My grandparents married in the church.
My other grandfather farmed nearby.
Yesterday Newstalk kept telling us a fatal car accident was ‘in the Tasman district’.
That suggested a Kekerengu over the other side of the Richmond Range, in Nelson, or even over in Golden Bay, Motueka. That’s very ‘Tasman’.
Not south of Blenheim, which they have now discovered this morning.
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December 9, 2023 8:08am
CJames

I like the way the IDF paraded around all the suspected Hamas fighters in their underwear. Very legitimate reasons for making them strip with the prevalence of suicide bombers. As they weren’t in uniform, the Geneva Convention doesn’t apply. If I remember correctly, they could legitimately be shot for fighting in civilian clothes.
It is also a very good show to the cowed citizens that the thugs can be humiliated. Hard to live down that shame. Though no doubt the bleeding heat lovelies in the leafy suburbs will be upset. Have a cement sandwich. It is war.
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December 9, 2023 8:10am
- thirteenstars
  
  Yeah, Stuff featured the sad tale of terrorists, who are often keen to strap on explosive vests, stripped down to their undies. Meanwhile I couldn’t find the story of journalists and other persons attending Israel’s embassy to be shown the 47-minute video of the atrocities committed by Hamas on Oct 7.
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:05am
  - Che Guava
    
    I may have missed it, but is this 47 minute video publicly available, or are we just taking the word of one of the combatants in the conflict?
    
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    December 9, 2023 9:22am
    - Che Guava
      
      Here’s a thought experiment: would anyone here get fired-up over a Palestinian’s description of a video he claimed to have seen showing Israeli misdeeds? You’d be justified in requesting the video before you reached a conclusion, surely. You’d see his clear self-interest and be sceptical. Nobody would accept a witness in a court of law giving evidence as to the video of the crime in question, without the accompanying video, would they?
      
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      December 9, 2023 10:01am
    - thirteenstars
      
      I’m not here to teach remedial web searching.
      
      Unless you get off on that kind of thing you might like to start with the testimonies of journalists who have seen these videos and written articles about what they saw. Or the numerous eyewitness reports from first responders.
      
      Of course, they could all be in the pay of the Dirty Jews, right?
      
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      December 9, 2023 10:19am
      - Che Guava
        
        Not good enough. You make a claim, you provide the corroborating evidence that supports your claim. Not difficult, surely. Is it anti-semitic to ask for hard evidence now?
        
        If we’re happy to just take people’s word about these events, then we have to also take the word of Palestinians as well. Of course, that will never happen – but on your own standard, why not? The reason is, you don’t require any evidence when it relates to confirming your own biases. You’ll only ask for evidence and be sceptical when your biases are challenged.
        
        This isn’t someone claiming they bench pressed 200kg last night at the gym – that’s neither here nor there to almost anyone else, so we don’t need evidence. By contrast, when the thing being claimed goes to the heart of the justification for bombing the shit out of an area and potentially taking their land, you’d better have some pretty excellent evidence. Describing your evidence instead of directly exhibiting it for me to make my own judgement is a red flag.
        
        If Israel had damning evidence that supports their case, they’d show it to us all. The more damning and disturbing the better, from their PR perspective.
        
        You know perfectly well that what I’m saying is correct, which is why you have to call me names, down tick my comments, and assign motivations instead of refuting anything I’m saying.
        
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        December 9, 2023 11:41am
      - Ra Henare
        
        Having done some remedial web searching.
        I came across this journalists response to haveing seen the 43 minute restricted viewing Video.
        
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyS0MXse1Z0&t=308s
        
        PS. I am quite enjoying novara as another view on whats happening in the world.
        
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        December 9, 2023 3:36pm
      - Jake Dee
        
        The data and the sources have to be checked. Every last link in the chain from the actual event to you. If accusations were being made against you and yours, you would demand nothing less.
        Authenticated, verified, sourced and corroborated gets put in a different pile than unauthenticated, unverified, unsourced and uncorroborated.
        If you think there are some groups who deserve special treatment and can skip the queue of evidence, then it’s on to you to show us who and why.
        
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        December 9, 2023 4:36pm
    - James Stephenson
      
      I guess whoever is driving this troll account today, wasn’t rostered on two days ago, when it commented on DPF’s post after seeing said video.
      
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      December 9, 2023 12:07pm
      - Beach Haven expat
        
        All very Owen Jones. For those who don’t know he’s an odious Guardian columnist who, having watched the video at one of these screenings, had the hot take to ignore everything and claim because there was no footage of women being raped, the Israelis couldn’t make that claim.
        He was rightly called out for being morally repellent but no one has asked why he, especially given his sexuality, was seemingly so desperate to watch the worst snuff porn. Weirdo.
        
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        December 9, 2023 8:47pm
  - kowtow
    
    A released Thai hostage has given an account of his abduction , the murder of Thai colleagues on that awful Oct 7 day by the terrorists . Their harrowing experience in extensive tunnels in Gaza , regular beatings , but nothing compared to the torture meted out to Israeli hostages with them .
    
    Oh wait ! This isn’t an account from the obviously lying , exagerating IDF . Look! a Thai has said there’s extensive tunnels , he’s been held in them …….but but but some posters here say thetunnels don’t exist . They’re a figment of the IDF imagination .
    
    But this guy’s a Thai national , Thais were murdered . He saw it happen , he saw the torture.
    
    nah the apologists have that covered too.
    
    He’s being “emotional” , he would say that wouldn’t he.
    
    Can’t trust these people , can we .It’s all propaganda , used to keep the White House and Netanyahu in pole position .
    
    Oh uh er , the military industrial blah blah , Zelensky , Nato . All conspiring …….along with Thai migrant workers andf the Jewish controlled American media !
    
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    December 9, 2023 11:34am
    - Che Guava
      
      Obfuscation. We’re not talking about a released Thai hostage and what they had to say, we’re talking about a video alleged to show various acts done by Hamas that, as far as I know, isn’t publicly available and therefore has the status of hearsay. I’m unsure what the one has to do with the other.
      
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      December 9, 2023 11:55am
      - All_on_Red
        
        Hearsay is when someone says they heard someone say something.
        The Thai hostage is an actual Witness and his Testimony would be acceptable in a Court of Law.
        Unless its proved false, Video evidence has the same standing.
        
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        December 9, 2023 12:42pm
      - Che Guava
        
        “Hearsay is when someone says they heard someone say something.”
        
        It’s also when someone says they saw something, when that something would itself be the best evidence, not a secondhand account of it. Like a video, for instance. Analogously, videos of events at the Capitol on Jan 6th would be a far better exhibit to establish the facts of what did and didn’t occur, rather than someone watching said footage and then describing it. You’d want the video, not the description.
        
        I agree, the Thai hostage’s testimony would be admissible in a court of law, but someone’s description of a video they saw would be inadmissible as hearsay. The court would ask them to submit the video instead, not their description thereof. One is direct, the other is indirect.
        
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        December 9, 2023 1:16pm
- nathie
  
  Fully agree and somewhat related – suggest the Israeli govt change tactics. Stop dropping bombs (causing massive collateral damage) and instead collaborate with the Palestinian population?
  
  I.e. pay the population to be informants on Hamas to turn them in.
  
  Imagine that, Hamas thugs who silence any dissent of the people by force and death, are now hunted down like the animals they are.
  
  Bonus for us: What will the Gweens and other western far-lefties do now? Side with the Hamas terrorists or side with the Palestinian people and Israel?
  
  Oh to be a conflicted Gweenie leftie terrorist supporting hypocrite now suffering an existential crisis – bwahahaha!
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:06am
  - Che Guava
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    They aren’t trying to destroy Hamas (their stated objective, but one they seem to be failing at), they are destroying Gaza so that there will be nothing for the people they are displacing to return to, meaning they can annex the territory more easily. In fact, destroying Hamas would be counterproductive, because Hamas are the justifying pretext for the war crimes being committed.
    
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    December 9, 2023 9:26am
    - Che Guava
      
      This is just what “turning Gaza into a parking lot” looks like in practice.
      
      2 18
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      December 9, 2023 10:05am
      - mawm
        
        I must confess to preferring glazed Gaza.
        
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        December 9, 2023 12:47pm
      - ISeeRed
        
        It’s a shame seeing you burn up all the cred you built up with COVID.
        
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        December 9, 2023 3:03pm
  - Steve Todd
    
    I.e. pay the population to be informants on Hamas to turn them in.
    
    I don’t think there will be many takers for that idea, nathie. See https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-militants-west-bank-say-two-collaborators-executed-2023-11-25/.
    
    I remember, about 25–30 years ago now, seeing a photograph of an executed, near-naked, young Palestinian man (about 20 years of age). He was hanging upside down from some sort of gantry. There were many onlookers.
    
    It goes without saying, of course, that this young man, and the two ‘collaborators’ in the story I have given a link to, were essentially summarily executed, without trial.
    
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    December 9, 2023 10:10am
    - nathie
      
      I hear you Steve and acknowledge what you write as being the reality, but small steps lead to larger ones.
      
      Was thinking to make it work the IDF would have to be in charge of Gaza’s security eg boots on the ground (like they were pre-2005) and that way Hamas are no longer in control.
      
      So they cannot hang people again as they will be the ones being hunted down.
      
      (Sure I acknowledge this is wishful thinking and not likely to happen … but we need new solutions because doing the same thing (current settings) is not working. All that is happening is ongoing radicalisation is being generated and exploited by regional players and useful idiots in the West).
      
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      December 9, 2023 10:34am
      - mawm
        
        Hamas were voted into running Gaza by the Gazans.
        
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        December 9, 2023 12:48pm
    - CJames
      
      They also do similar to gays, which shows just how stupid the Queers for Palestine are.
      
      12 1
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      December 9, 2023 11:53am
    - kowtow
      
      happened again just the other day on the West bank .Murdered for ‘collaborating’ then hanged from a tower for all the mobile phone taking crowd to glory and glee in .
      
      And it happens all the time.
      
      btw the Islamic mullahs regime in Iran has hanged nearly 900 people this year .
      Where’s the legacy media on that.
      
      How about Golriz , Swarbrick et al wearing an ayatollah’s turban to parliament or one of their hate fests , that would make quite the fashion statement .
      
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      December 9, 2023 12:06pm
Lee C

I’d hit this BS with a weedwhacker.

The clue is in the word ‘Government’.

As in “This is the Government calling and we are telling you to do this”.

The line that Labour have ‘locked in’ anything is BS, (or wishful thinking) in my opinion.
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December 9, 2023 8:11am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  At the very least, the Government needs to nix the most egregious example. If it takes retrospective legislation, which is generally bad policy, then so be it.
  
  If, for example, there are locked in staff or long term IT contracts within DIA / Three Waters, then these should be terminated on normal commercial terms, i.e. 30 or 60 day notice.
  
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  December 9, 2023 8:19am
NeverMindTheBollocks

Susie Fergusson doing her best in the RNZ Saturday Morning slot.

Hard to fill the shoes of a living legend.
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December 9, 2023 8:14am
G152

Pro isis pillock warbling on this morning about the evil Israeli and the complicit Americans.
Heres a hint.
Dont attack a war ready nation and try to hide behind a civilian population when the war ready nation comes calling
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December 9, 2023 8:20am
- Che Guava
  
  Does it follow that someone is “pro isis” just because they criticise Israel and recognise the complicity of the Americans as the tip of the Israeli spear in the Middle East? It may follow as a matter of propaganda, but it doesn’t follow as a matter of logic.
  
  And is Israel really “war ready” when they rely so heavily on the blood and treasure of the Americans? Watch them start to panic when the idea of non-reliance on American aid gets brought up.
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:08am
Benedict Yu

Tova Obrien is crowing about a statement by Christopher Luxon that the Treaty Principles legislation is going no further than select committee and categorically et ruling out a referendum.

I can’t find any other reports of such a statement.
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December 9, 2023 8:22am
- pdm
  
  Time for a petition supporting the referendum I think.
  
  200/250,000 signatures could be compellingand get the referendum back on the agenda.
  
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  December 9, 2023 8:41am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    If there is such massive support, a citizens referendum could have been called any time in the last 20 years.
    
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    December 9, 2023 8:50am
    - imalwaysright
      
      The treaty industry to maori activists is what war is to the military industrial complex.
      
      There is no profit in having a settled treaty, just as there is no profit in peace.
      
      These activists depend on perceived conflict between kiwis to fuel their gravy train.
      
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      December 9, 2023 9:19am
    - ClanMcleod
      
      Every citizens referendum in NZ history was ignored by the government of the day, even though they all had 80%+ support of the public.
      
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_New_Zealand#Citizens_Initiated_Referenda
      
      CIR are a great example of virtue signaling by making people think they live in a democracy. They cost an enormous amount of time and energy to present a valid one, then to watch it ignored must be soul destroying.
      
      Either make the results binding if 60% or more agree with the proposal, or dump them completely as the meaningless gesture they are.
      
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      December 9, 2023 9:52am
- Philview
  
  Tova’s articles are now so politically biased I don’t waste my time reading them. I thought after the election that we would return to some normality but the media have gone to war against the government. There is no question that the left are going to fight like hell to bring about their plans for the country.
  
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  December 9, 2023 8:51am
  - Jack5
    
    Toxic Tova’s more interested in splitting the coalition than fighting any review of the Treaty of Waitangi.
    
    The Labour ship’s gone down. Stuff, State TV, and State radio are flotsam wreckage slower to sink.
    
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    December 9, 2023 9:17am
    - kowtow
      
      NZME as well .
      With a cuppla radio hosts being the exception.They’re the ones probably bringing in the advertising revenue.
      
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      December 9, 2023 12:21pm
- thirteenstars
  
  Here is the exchange:
  
  Tākuta Ferris: Ka tū māia ia ki tana kaupapa here kia tukuna Te Tiriti o Waitangi kia arohaehaehia, kia pōtingia e te motu whānui me te mōhio iho ki te māwehe me te kino ka whai mai i muri? Does he stand by the policy to leave the door open to a referendum on Te Tiriti o Waitangi knowing full well the division and chaos that that will cause?
  
  Rt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON: On what we have agreed as a Government, that we will pursue a Treaty principles bill to select committee, and that’s as far as it will go.
  
  Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: Point of order. With all due respect to the member’s question, I think he was asking about a referendum, not about a Treaty principles bill.
  
  SPEAKER: Well, does the Prime Minister wish to say more to that question?
  
  Rt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON: We have not committed to a referendum.
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:08am
  - thirteenstars
    
    In reply to myself, I watched the debate and when Luxon added, “and that’s as far as it will go”, I heard some ah-ha! type sounds in the chamber.
    
    I suspect Luxon revealed his true feelings on the matter, which is no surprise.
    
    Full Hansard:
    
    https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/combined/HansDeb_20231207_20231207_30
    
    Video:
    
    https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/combined/HansDeb_20231207_20231207_30/tab/video?page=3&mode=form
    
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    December 9, 2023 10:23am
    - CJames
      
      I would read that as the government has just committed for the treaty principles bill to go to select committee and made no statement on if it will go further.
      That is quite different to saying it won’t go further than select committee like some have implied.
      
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      December 9, 2023 12:01pm
      - Benedict Yu
        
        “We have not committed to a referendum…”
        
        That is not the same as ruling one out. Tova is interviewing her mind again.
        
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        December 9, 2023 12:48pm
      - thirteenstars
        
        Oh, it will, because the committee will return it to the house for its second reading at which point National will kill it with a party vote of nay. It won’t be a personal vote.
        
        Luxon has said a referendum would be “divisive”. National policy is a big no.
        
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        December 9, 2023 12:53pm
    - stiff cheese
      
      Sixteen odd years ago, NZ First tried to pass a Principles of the ToW Deletion Bill.
      
      Chris Finlayson (National Minister) didn’t want it to pass: Treaty of Waitangi Deletion Bill — 2nd reading
      
      In the House he promised to explain exactly what the principles were, but in the end he only delivers waffle and circular logic.
      
      Finlayson: “. . . in some legislation one cannot discern exactly what Parliament intended when it referred to the principles. But in most of the legislation we deal with I think it is tolerably clear …” [Okay, if it’s ‘tolerably clear’ just tell us! ]
      
      Finlayson: “In [the Privy Council’s] opinion the ‘principles’ are the underlying mutual obligations and responsibilities which the Treaty places on the parties.”. . . [Does Finlayson go on to to explain these “underlying mutual obligations and responsibilities”? NOPE. ]
      
      Finlayson: ” [Case law] over the years, has given people a pretty good understanding in most cases about what exactly the principles of the Treaty are all about.” . . [so if Finlayson has a ‘pretty good understanding’ did he go on to share it? NOPE. ]
      
      Just generalizing waffle really. You’re none the wiser at the end of it. Read it for a laugh and to get a foretaste of the obstructionism that National will try on again.
      
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      December 9, 2023 1:36pm
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        Bear in mind that Chris Finlayson is not in government
        
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        December 9, 2023 8:51pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      It’s not his true feelings on the matter, it’s what they said at the time in the agreement, it was the pitiful left with Shd and ohs, clearly not up with the play
      
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      December 9, 2023 10:24pm
  - leoj
    
    Where is Seymour on this?
    
    ACT’s vote was all about the maorification of the country and Seymour has gone quiet?
    
    Dropping their promise will mean two things: Less support for ACT next time and more support for NZF.
    
    So disappointed in Seymour.
    
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    December 9, 2023 10:39am
    - thirteenstars
      
      On what? The Treaty? The coalition deal says the Nats will support the Principles Bill to the select committee stage so Luxon has not said anything that is not publicly known. He did however let his slip show a bit.
      
      Seymour had plenty to say in the Address in Reply on Wednesday:
      
      We are going to see a constructive debate about what the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi mean, and people will get into enormous hysterics about this, because, you know, some people aren’t what you’d call intellectual. Those people who aren’t so intellectual, they tend to be afraid of debate, and so they will call you racist and they’ll shout you down and they’ll try and block the motorway. But those of us who do enjoy the contest of ideas are looking forward to having a discussion about what those principles mean and what the lens through which we view the Treaty from 2023 actually means, and I suspect that if they do their study and if they read and they take the time—and some of those people shouting in the background might actually enjoy the discussion and find that it is mana-enhancing for Te Tiriti and Māoridom. But I’m not sure that they’re up to it. The challenge—the wero—is now laid down for them.
      
      He’s not backing off. The debate will certainly take place and since Te Media Party and Te Pati Maori don’t know when to shut up, that debate will be loud and vigorous.
      
      Keep in mind because of the Nat’s reluctance to grab this issue by the scruff of the neck, there’s a plan afoot to conduct a citizens-initiated referendum.
      
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      December 9, 2023 11:53am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        Exactly, and all three parties agree on each other’s policies, the left are deranged if they thought anything else
        
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        December 9, 2023 10:27pm
    - Colville
      
      You think NZF will survive 3 years?
      
      5 0
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      December 9, 2023 1:30pm
      - cmm
        
        They will survive this term. Maybe not the next election.
        
        1 0
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        December 9, 2023 7:39pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      When BC Seymour started spouting his anti everything, he lost 50% of his support
      
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      December 9, 2023 10:25pm
- Ghost
  
  I’m not sure why people are making a big deal about this, Luxon stated this before the government was formed.
  
  https://waateanews.com/2023/11/27/national-to-support-select-committee-hearing-into-treaty/
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:37am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Some of the fans have assumed that the ACT farrago would make it to a referendum or even into law.
    
    3 17
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    December 9, 2023 10:43am
    - Michael Sommerville
      
      I don’t see their position as confused at all. I suspect you might be confused by the meaning of farrago.
      
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      December 9, 2023 1:43pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Yes he said it in an answer at question time Thursday, but I am sure in the agreement that is exactly what they stated, they didn’t rule out a referendum, but said they would push the principles to select committee, remember all 3 parties agreed with that, a discussion may well lead to a referendum, and when the dumb left start to realise this is not about dumping the treaty then they may well agree.
  
  I was shocked when Luxon said as is in the agreement that they would push it through to select committee, the left were shocked as if he haas shafted ACT
  
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  December 9, 2023 12:28pm
Paulus

But Tova is always right !
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December 9, 2023 8:24am
- Colville
  
  When Tova does the daily interview of her keyboard she always gets the answers she was expecting!
  
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  December 9, 2023 1:31pm
Scooter

Wouldn’t Brooke Van Valden and James Meager make a cute couple. I wouldn’t mind seeing their offspring paraded around parliament.
6 12
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December 9, 2023 8:26am
- lifesgood
  
  Can’t stand Van Velden, don’t foist her on the wonderful James.
  
  1 16
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  December 9, 2023 9:48am
  - Colville
    
    Can’t you handle a strong smart woman?
    
    4 2
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    December 9, 2023 1:32pm
- MCōs
  
  I don’t know that the Act leaders are inclined towards relationships
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:52am
- sirknz
  
  Dude, WTF…
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:01am
blue collar

XMAS / 21st PREZZIES FOR YOUNG MEN

anyone wondering what to get an 18 – 25 year old ….. get em a a combo kit of battery tools .
De Walt , makita , Milwaukee ….. doesn’t matter , they’re all good .
Just get the standard 18 volt , don’t need the 54 volt etc .
Usually you can get a kit of ; drill , impact drill , reciprocating ( sabre ) saw , grinder , and skill saw for around $1200 .
Will come with a charger and a couple 5 amp batteries

All young men and go getter women should have a kit , it will last a lifetime and get them out of the shit , or allow them to maintain things and create new things ….
It’ll also teach them to look after things .

Gang up with family members or if a 21st friends n chip in the $ ….. guaranteed full froth stoked-ness 🤙
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December 9, 2023 8:26am
- wsk12345
  
  We have a full garage of dewalt tools of this type. Yes they get well used and no they will not last a lifetime. We have about 8-10 batteries which are wearing out at the 4-5 year mark. The handheld tools are great otherwise, the bigger dewalt tools (thicknesser, table saw) have shown a tendency to catch on fire….the chainsaw is awesome for a large suburban property!
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:00am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  I went on a buying-spree with youngest daughter last time I visited her..and made sure she had all the power tools she required in her little rented house.
  
  Son-outlaw was aghast, and tried convincing me that I was wasting my money.
  I laughed and told him that my daughter would teach him how to use them.
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:01am
blue collar

Ps , been quiet for a while , lost me old man in tragic circumstances and other goings on ….. but gotta say ….. how good was the election ?
Wasn’t the landslide I called but hey , I actually think the 3 parties will be more effective than 2 .

Winston has the Māori activists and media bias sorted in a way that Seymour and luxon never could .

Loving the sense of action and clear plaannning .

Bring it .
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December 9, 2023 8:30am
- wsk12345
  
  Sorry to hear that about your dad.
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:01am
  - blue collar
    
    Cheers brother wsk …..
    
    One day I’ll detail the state of the hospital and 111 response when I was fanging across town with me dying dad ….. but not yet .
    
    The workers were doing their best …. Heroes all , but the state of it ….. appalling .
    
    Waiting room full
    Corridors full
    Wards full
    They had to arsehole some poor bastard off a gurney to get the old boy on one , and work on him myself with a nurse aid helper ….
    
    Carn reti , you’ve got this bro , get stuck in
    
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    December 9, 2023 9:37pm
Wayne Mapp

I think she got that from one of Luxon’s answers to a parliamentary question on Thursday.
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December 9, 2023 8:32am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  Here:
  
  Tākuta Ferris: Does he stand by the policy to leave the door open to a referendum on Te Tiriti o Waitangi knowing full well the division and chaos that that will cause?
  
  Rt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON: On what we have agreed as a Government, that we will pursue a Treaty principles bill to select committee, and that’s as far as it will go.
  
  Rt Hon Chris Hipkins: Point of order. With all due respect to the member’s question, I think he was asking about a referendum, not about a Treaty principles bill.
  
  SPEAKER: Well, does the Prime Minister wish to say more to that question?
  
  Rt Hon CHRISTOPHER LUXON: We have not committed to a referendum.
  
  There won’t be any referendum, and the ACT bill will die in committee.
  
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  December 9, 2023 8:40am
  - Rodney Hide
    
    I would say that is a breach of good faith with a coalition party — assuming he meant to say what he said.
    
    The ACT party only asked for the Three Strikes legislation to go to select committee.
    
    The reason being you can’t expect a party to sign up to a bill without proper considertaion.
    
    We figured National would be persuaded and they were.
    
    Rodney
    
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    December 9, 2023 8:46am
    - Cinematic
      
      Luxon’s statement was ambiguous and Tova is spinning hard here. There has been no change to the coalition’s position. To select committee, beyond that is a question mark.
      
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      December 9, 2023 8:55am
      - septic skeptic
        
        I don’t see any ambiguity in “and that’s as far as it will go”. I suspect a Freudian slip. Luxon could (should) have said they haven’t committed beyond that. I think National will vote against the bill, unless it is watered down beyond recognition.
        
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        December 9, 2023 10:02am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        No it was not ambiguous, it’s clear as a bell in the agreement
        
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        December 9, 2023 10:28pm
    - Tom Hunter
      
      Ex National Cabinet Minister Wayne Mapp and KB entertainer “mikenmild” are on the same side here – which is no surprise. History repeats:
      
      I know some here noted that National used to have a policy to do away with the Maori electoral seats. That policy never had a chance of proceeding because there was way too much resistance in the caucus to actually do it. In the end the policy was quietly dropped.
      …
      The policy of abolishing the Maori seats was never a core policy. There were other things that were way more important. So those who supported it, or in fact had come up with it, never even tried to push the policy within caucus to actually implement it.
      …
      Once John Key did the deal with the Maori Party in 2008, the policy simply disappeared from discussion. Everyone understood that such a policy could not survive when doing a deal with the Maori Party. That deal was done in order to balance Act, so between 2008 and 2017 National was never dependent on a single coalition partner.
      
      It’s the oozing smug satisfaction that really tops it off.
      
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      December 9, 2023 9:44am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Still link whoring, Tom?
        
        2 13
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        December 9, 2023 12:54pm
      - Colville
        
        Still blowing sailors Mike?
        
        9 3
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        December 9, 2023 1:37pm
      - waikatosinger
        
        I can understand National electorate MPs not wanting the Maori seats abolished as that would increase the percentage of Labour voters in their electorates.
        
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        December 9, 2023 3:25pm
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        As did Peters have a policy that was a bottom line with labour, but anti Nat supporters on here scoffed him down even though he is full of shit
        
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        December 9, 2023 10:31pm
  - CJames
    
    That is a willful misinterpretation milky. He is just saying they haven’t committed. I suspect he will see what the committee and more importantly public opinion polling says.
    
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    December 9, 2023 8:51am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      “We have not committed to a referendum” says it all.
      
      3 28
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      December 9, 2023 8:55am
      - Cinematic
        
        Yes it does. It says precisely what is in the coalition agreement. To select committee, beyond that remains to be seen. Read into it what you like though.
        
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        December 9, 2023 8:59am
      - Littletramp
        
        He does not say “we have committed not to have a referendum”, which you are implying.
        Left wing semantics – used to be called b/s.
        
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        December 9, 2023 9:02am
      - Cassandra
        
        Indeed. But that’s not to say that there won’t be one. And the House could pass a Principles Act anyway, without a referendum. Which Labour will overturn at its peril, speaking as a former Labour voter with strong connections to the Party.
        
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        December 9, 2023 9:03am
      - rouppe
        
        “I have not committed to breakfast”. Doesn’t mean I’m not going to have breakfast.
        
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        December 9, 2023 9:15am
      - Jack5
        
        Milky:
        
        Seymour wanted the issue before a Parliamentary committee, the coalition partners agreed. That’s all.
        
        The rest of the story is Toxic Tova filling her column with her fantasy dream of a split in the coalition. The real gap is in her brain.
        
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        December 9, 2023 9:32am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        “And the House could pass a Principles Act anyway, without a referendum.”
        
        Tova Obrien claims that to pass such an Act would require 75 percent support in the House because it changes the “constitution”. Does anyone know if that is correct?
        
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        December 9, 2023 4:37pm
      - Rodney Hide
        
        Tova is wrong. Parliament can do anything with a simple majority.
        
        Rodney
        
        1 0
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        December 10, 2023 7:22am
  - Cassandra
    
    Let’s hope that the shenanigans by the Maoris over the last week will convince enough NZers to encourage National to grow a spine. Of course defining the principles of the ToW will be divisive – the current court-defined lot have divided the country. But for the sake of remaining a country we need to put to bed any idea that sovereignty was not ceded and that Maoris have any special status.
    
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    December 9, 2023 8:59am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      The current interpretation of the treaty has enjoyed firm bipartisan support for over thirty years. It will not be overturned easily.
      
      3 25
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      December 9, 2023 9:37am
      - Che Guava
        
        True. But if you want to revolt against any entrenched state of affairs, you necessarily need to adopt a revolutionary stance.
        
        13 3
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        December 9, 2023 9:56am
      - I remember when
        
        It is the interpretation given to laws being justified by supposed requirements of the Treaty.
        Not interpretations of the Treaty.
        
        11 1
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        December 9, 2023 10:14am
      - Cassandra
        
        Nonsense, mike. It has been an incremental slide. Now we have the Tribunal saying that Maori did not cede sovereignty and that the relationship is a partnership. Cooke didn’t say that it was. Ann, that’s all. But let’s find out if there’s bipartisan support – let’s have a vote on it.
        
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        December 9, 2023 10:44am
      - ISeeRed
        
        Yes, “bipartisan support” of political parties, not the majority of voters. Most Western countries are governed by political elites whose values are diametrically opposed to the will of the people they supposedly represent.
        
        4 0
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        December 9, 2023 3:13pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Clearly the left were not listening when they released the whole agreement, there is no expectation of a referendum, the select committee on the principles may well bring into public discussion about the principles that then may well lead to a referendum.
    So the bill may not die at committee stage
    
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    December 9, 2023 12:36pm
  - JJ56
    
    It all depends on what the “it” in “that’s as far as it will go” refers back to.
    
    The Government’s agreement, or the referendum.
    
    Take your pick but I think the former is both absolutely accurate and much more likely. The latter creates unnecessary strife in the ranks.
    
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    December 9, 2023 1:55pm
- DeepBlue
  
  None of this reporting is new. The MSM and fellow travellers just haven’t read the coalition agreeme ts. Screamers they are.
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:55am
Souvlaki

Does anyone know whether Karel Sroubek, friend of the previous administration has ACTUALLY been deported as planned?
37 1
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December 9, 2023 8:32am
- peterwn
  
  Presumably his application for judicial review is waiting to be heard by the High Court so he is at liberty in NZ until that happens. The Australians would probably in that situation put him in a detention camp somewhere until the review is heard.
  There is also the small matter of Kim Dotcom’s extradition that has been hanging around like a bad smell for years. Hopefully the incoming Minister will sign off his extradition pretty smartly.
  
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  December 9, 2023 8:51am
- imalwaysright
  
  Wasn’t there a connection with ardern ? Richie “Hardcore” ?
  (What wanker gives himself a name like that)
  
  22 3
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  December 9, 2023 9:29am
  - Che Guava
    
    “(What wanker gives himself a name like that)”
    
    You do realise that you call yourself “imalwaysright” don’t you?
    
    5 11
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    December 9, 2023 9:54am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Well spotted Che, many thanks.
      Just my way of prompting those without the wherewithal to realise.
      
      10 1
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      December 9, 2023 11:40am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Don’t think he has changed his name officially to that do you?
      
      2 1
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      December 9, 2023 12:38pm
      - imalwaysright
        
        He used to be on breakfast tv years ago and went by that name. I don’t know if it is his official name or not.
        Then again, he was basically an arse kisser for the left so the moniker seemed incongruous. May have excited some in his circle though.
        
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        December 9, 2023 2:31pm
  - Ghost
    
    Many fighters come up with their own in ring persona that lives outside of he ring. Shit, in America Terry Bollea still lives off of hulk hogan. How many people remember walker smith?
    
    8 0
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    December 9, 2023 10:00am
    - Paul
      
      Or John Walker, who ran!
      
      1 0
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      December 9, 2023 7:28pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Yes, and lawnmowers.
    
    11 3
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    December 9, 2023 10:01am
mikenmildagain

Texas attorney general says he will sue doctor who gives abortion to Kate Cox. Ken Paxton issues threat after judge ruled this week that Cox, a pregnant woman with a lethal fetal diagnosis, can get an abortion

The cruelty is the point.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/08/ken-paxton-texas-abortion-kate-cox
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December 9, 2023 8:35am
- Michael Sommerville
  
  Stupidity at the highest level where dogma trumps common sense.
  
  Not unlike a government recently sent packing from these shores.
  
  16 0
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  December 9, 2023 8:44am
- peterwn
  
  The Court should issue a warrant for the arrest of the Texas AG for contempt of Court.
  
  8 1
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  December 9, 2023 9:12am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Paxton considers himself above the law. Skated on impeachment but might go down for securities fraud and bribery.
    
    3 10
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    December 9, 2023 9:41am
- mikenmildagain
  
  I’m gonna be charitable and assume that the 11 downtickers so far just don’t like me, rather than thinking a woman should be forced to give birth to a fetus with a fatal condition and at risk to her own life.
  
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  December 9, 2023 12:58pm
  - Michael Sommerville
    
    I would have to say that I don’t agree with a lot of what you say but on this particular occasion I gave you an uptick and I agree as I stated.
    
    Similarly, I can’t understand why people would down tick you on this subject unless they think that all abortion is evil. That thinking is evil and lacks empathy and common sense.
    
    I thought we were all into freedom of speech on this page. I’ll probably get down ticked for this last comment too.
    
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    December 9, 2023 1:57pm
- NoFax
  
  Linking the Guardian automatically makes me suspicious. They are extreme left activists cosplaying as journalists trying to undermine pro-life laws and, therefore, will simply lie to advanced the extreme agenda. The Guardian are extreme leftists who have a visceral hate for anything slightly right of Stalin. No matter how much you hate the media, it’s not enough.
  
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  December 9, 2023 2:29pm
DeepBlue

MSM: Luxon must get alongside business quickly.. I’m sure Luxon doesn’t need that advice. MSM really have been asleep.
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December 9, 2023 8:38am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  He has been alongside them for 2 years nearly, as opposed to Ardern saying let’s address the elephant in the room every time she went to a business speech
  
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  December 9, 2023 12:42pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Tory Whanau has been quick off the mark stating that 5 City Councillors in Wellington have breached their Code of Conduct

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/504243/five-wellington-councillors-breached-code-of-conduct-investigation-finds

But if you read through the entire Investigation report by Linda Clark, you are left with the impression that this was a jack-up from woe to go…

https://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/2312/10833030_1.pdf

4 of the named City Councillors state:
The review found there is “insufficient evidence to identify who leaked the information”. This was the main reason for instigating such a review.
..
The Mayor chose Linda Clark from Denton’s, despite their personal and business connections, which brought the report’s neutrality into question.

The report’s findings were based on incorrect assumptions, together with loose and conflated connections on comments made on other topics. The report’s recommendations do not relate to the findings and appear to be clutching at straws.

https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=157026
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December 9, 2023 8:44am
- Suze Wainwright
  
  Someone of Tory’s caliber would probably be adept at reading between the lines
  
  16 1
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  December 9, 2023 8:59am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    How do we know she didn’t blurt it out while on her knees drunk in a bar 😃
    
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    December 9, 2023 12:43pm
    - Beach Haven expat
      
      According to the stories nothing leaves her mouth in that situation. Quite the opposite.
      
      But on a more serious point, what kind of moron, having endured the week of mocking she has (either her admission she’s a complete lush or the unconfirmed claims now widely believed) thinks it’s a good idea to release this report and make comment? All it’s fine is kept the spotlight on her own failings.
      
      A few months (or the rest of her term) with head down and mouth shut (ho ho) working hard on the day job would be the mature thing to do.
      
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      December 9, 2023 9:09pm
  - krazykiwi
    
    No when one’s nose is so close to them.
    
    5 0
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    December 9, 2023 1:39pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  Channelling Tory?
  
  😛
  
  18 2
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  December 9, 2023 9:00am
  - All_on_Red
    
    Apparently the Tory Channel is quite treacherous and as it goes in and out the suck is huge. 🙂
    
    31 2
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    December 9, 2023 9:12am
- the deity formerly known as nigel6888
  
  Garbage mayor, what did anyone expect?
  
  She must be confident the video isn’t going to be released.
  
  22 1
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  December 9, 2023 9:10am
  - MCōs
    
    What video?
    
    5 10
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    December 9, 2023 10:02am
    - Steve Todd
      
      Exactly.
      
      7 1
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      December 9, 2023 10:39am
- nathie
  
  Interesting interview between HDPA and one of the accused Councillors Ray Chung yesterday.
  
  Seems as if Tory Whanau is leading a witch hunt? (Imagine if a non-leftie mayor had a witch hunt against leftie Councillors – there would be outrage and calls to resign)!
  
  Linda Clark one-time journo (i.e. defender of the 4th Estate and the right to question authority) now turned legal jack-boot for hire. Is her credibility down the toilet yet?
  
  https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/heather-du-plessis-allan-drive/audio/councillor-ray-chung-bemused-by-council-code-breach-investigation/
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:22am
  - Souvlaki
    
    ….rhetorical question huh…?
    
    7 1
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    December 9, 2023 9:55am
    - nathie
      
      Heh 🙂
      
      7 1
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      December 9, 2023 10:41am
thirteenstars

One of ACT’s Members’ bills drawn from the ballot:

“Repeal of Good Friday and Easter Sunday as Restricted Trading Days (Shop Trading and Sale of Alcohol) Amendment Bill”

https://bills.parliament.nz/v/1/a804f6b3-c745-49bc-f2ff-08dbf6be50d5

Sounds good to me but the conservatives will insist we all be forced to observe their holy days. Praise the Lord but engage in consensual capitalism and you’ll go to jail. No soup for you!
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December 9, 2023 8:56am
- artemisia
  
  Back in the day the best response to a particular Bill / Act about who you marry was – don’t like it, don’t do it.
  
  Same with shops and customers.
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:19am
  - Jack5
    
    Minor issue. Bugger all votes in it.
    
    7 1
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    December 9, 2023 9:34am
    - mawm
      
      Does it really need parliamentary time wasted on it? Surely just a quiet word to the police not to prosecute those that breach the current law is enough.
      
      4 1
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      December 9, 2023 1:15pm
- Hollyfield
  
  In recent years the loudest voices against relaxing Easter trading laws come from the unions – let the poor retail workers have a day to spend with their families; the filthy rich business owners can do with a tiny bit less profit from the millions they earn off the backs of the downtrodden.
  
  I remember some years ago taking my daughter to the movies on a wet day during the school holidays, and it wasn’t until we got to the mall to find everything shut that I realised it was because it was Good Friday. The movie theatre was open however. It made me wonder why the union fights for the retail worker’s right to spend a day with family but the cinema and cafe workers aren’t so worthy. Makes a farce of the laws when it’s not consistent, and shows no reason for the law to continue as it currently stands.
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:07am
  - Beach Haven expat
    
    It’s not that they’re not worthy, it’s that they didn’t stump up the union fees.
    
    Splitters! /s
    
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    December 9, 2023 9:12pm
- mandk
  
  I think you might find that it is the unions that fight hardest to retain these holidays.
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:27am
- Nukuleka
  
  So you’d be fine for Christmas Day and Anzac Day morning to be included in the bill? If not, why not?
  
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  December 9, 2023 11:45am
  - thirteenstars
    
    Sure.
    
    The difference with Easter is obvious. Not only is it an enforcement for heavily religious reasons, especially Good Friday, but it’s also on a four-day weekend which is the last such break that people have before summer finally ends.
    
    Further, Christmas is celebrated equally for its secular aspects as its religious ones, in fact I’d say most Kiwis don’t give more than a wink and a nod to the religious reasons. And Anzac Day is certainly secular and applies to all Kiwis regardless of religion.
    
    Let’s not forget that NZ used to close down at the weekends and the repeal of the shop trading hours laws was considered the death knell of NZ as we know it. Do you feel guilty shopping at the weekend? Or getting your house painted on a Sunday, which after all is the Christian sabbath.
    
    5 3
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    December 9, 2023 12:14pm
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      You can find a house painter happy to work Sundays? Where does one find such a fabulous worker?
      
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      December 9, 2023 8:57pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  What annoys me is Keys government but legislation to leave it to councils to decide which is fair, but why do bloody councillors all decide no way?
  
  5 1
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  December 9, 2023 12:45pm
  - Beach Haven expat
    
    Because they are led by such heavyweights as the Wellington mayor.
    
    Oh…..
    
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    December 9, 2023 9:13pm
- krazykiwi
  
  “ Sounds good to me but the conservatives will insist…”
  
  I’m assuming you are assuming Christians are all conservatives? Jesus was distinctly libertarian. He politely tore the conservative religious leaders of his day a new one when they tried to nail him for working on the sabbath.
  
  I don’t support businesses being forced to close to observe any state-recognised day – religious or not. I include ANZAC day in that.
  
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  December 9, 2023 1:51pm
- NoFax
  
  Get rid of all public holidays and let me decide when I’ll have the day off. An extra 12 annual leave would be great. I have no interest in been forced to have the day after new year as a holiday.
  
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  December 9, 2023 2:32pm
- ISeeRed
  
  Tone deaf move by ACT. Our economy isn’t teetering on the edge of a precipice because shops can open only 362 days a year instead of 365. I assume ACT pollies on six-figure salaries will still be having those days off themselves while wanting others to be working those days in retail on minimum wage?
  
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  December 9, 2023 3:22pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Dr Muriel Newman. Regime Change.

Former Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern was so obsessed with controlling the narrative that in early 2020 she declared “unless you hear it from us, it is not the truth’.” Ardern the bully.
Maori Party. Two crossed guns. Peace or violence? Not a peep from the media.

https://www.nzcpr.com/regime-change/
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December 9, 2023 9:01am
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/133419963/more-rubber-than-road-after-days-of-burnouts-leave-squiggly-black-mess

Don’t bother reading this, the executive summary is:

“Complain if you must but the police will do nothing”.
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December 9, 2023 9:07am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  Went through Woodville yesterday. Breath testing at 3pm. More than a dozen cops lined up. Not sure who they were targeting – wine-drinking Mums, Lotta Dann style? Christmas lunchers? Surely there are better road policing priorities.
  
  15 1
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  December 9, 2023 9:21am
  - NothingLeft
    
    I think if you asked average kiwi whether they would rather see more road policing and breath testing caravans or greater focus on policing gangs and catching thieves most would chose the latter.
    
    Alcohol consumption is falling over time. Drunk driving is a shrinking problem – overwhelmed by drugged driving
    
    13 1
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    December 9, 2023 11:49am
  - Colville
    
    Cops always put on the drunk stops pre Xmas just to be visible and get it in people’s heads.
    
    6 0
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    December 9, 2023 1:40pm
- imalwaysright
  
  Grey
  
  “Police said they couldn’t comment on specific locations for privacy reasons”
  
  Are they saying that roads have the rights of privacy.
  I know there is a river up north somewhere that has human rights, now they are giving them to roads.
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:46am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Watch and laugh. What a crazy socialist thinks about Wealth Tax.
She has no backup.

https://feedsnorth.com/watch-and-laugh-cnbc-host-explains-economics-to-brain-dead-liz-warren/
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December 9, 2023 9:12am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Iran poking the bear again.
America needs Trump so they can use targeted drones to take out the Iran hierarchy.
End it. Knock knock, you have two days to stop, or we stop you.

https://feedsnorth.com/iran-thinks-they-can-intrude-on-uss-eisenhower-check-out-whats-flying-right-behind-them/
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December 9, 2023 9:15am
sirknz

Stuff with the hard hitting journalism again.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/301022665/why-do-some-farts-smell-and-some-dont-and-why-do-some-farts-feel-hot

Haven’t checked it out myself so I’m not sure if it is PIJF money spent well or not.
12 2
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December 9, 2023 9:24am
- Ghost
  
  It’s an article in their health section from an Australian professor, it’s actually a reply to a 6 year old Aussie girl that wrote in to the conversation to ask the question.
  
  10 1
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  December 9, 2023 9:32am
- Ra Henare
  
  As a serial farter, found the article enlightening.!!!
  
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  December 9, 2023 4:02pm
I remember when

A neighbourhood grandma wants to take her kindergarten age grandchildren to a Nativity Play for Christmas.
She is having some difficulty finding one.
Meanwhile, last night’s TV News quoted a Hamas leader as suggesting the Israeli hostages would never be found if Israel did not stop their attacks.
Anyone expect their local support numbers to reduce as a result?
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December 9, 2023 9:24am
- artemisia
  
  The released hostages will have been carefully chosen.
  
  12 1
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  December 9, 2023 9:37am
  - Paulus
    
    I suspect that the last thing Hamas will do is to release any more hostages.
    
    10 1
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    December 9, 2023 10:57am
  - waikatosinger
    
    They will never release many of the women. They might tell the world what was done to them. Sickening.
    
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    December 9, 2023 3:18pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Interesting juxtaposition of your concerns. In your opinion, if we had more nativity plays would there be less of this alleged support for Hamas?
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:45am
  - I remember when
    
    Perhaps if Christians attacked disbelievers and committed atrocities large gathering would occur in support.
    
    8 3
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    December 9, 2023 10:01am
    - Ra Henare
      
      Yep, that has happened ie Christians attacking disbelievers….
      Ever heard of the Crusades/ 🙂
      
      Same Country same problem. Rather than Jews invading Palestine it was Christians wanting to eradicate Muslims from teh holy land.
      
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
      
      Same problem, same location. ie one set of religos attacking another set of religos.
      
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      December 9, 2023 4:07pm
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        Bear in mind that until relatively recently (3-400 years), the Holy Land was Christian. It was the Muslims who took over in 650-700 AD.
        
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        December 9, 2023 9:01pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        1400 years. Just like yesterday, really.
        
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        December 9, 2023 9:25pm
- Centrist
  
  Tell her to ring nearby churches. Decent chance that one with a few kids in the Sunday school will be doing a nativity play.
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:07am
  - imalwaysright
    
    The local trannys would be all over a nativity play at the library.
    Swaddling cloths as far as the eye could see.
    
    5 2
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    December 9, 2023 2:41pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Stop Co-Governance. Julian Batchelor.
Luxon is not leading NZ in the direction we need to go. He is being used.

https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/how-can-we-tell-luxon-is-out-of-touch-with-political-realities-in-new-zealand/

The psychology of takeover:
https://issuu.com/esisite/docs/the_psychology_of_takeover_rejig?
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December 9, 2023 9:36am
I remember when

Niwa weather outlook: What an ‘atypical’ El Nino means for your summer: 1 Dec 2023.
“An ‘atypical’ El Nino summer is set to bring plenty of variability amid the big climate driver’s traditional wet-and-dry flavours for New Zealand’s west and east – starting with a bout of humidity for the North Island next week.
For Kiwi summer, El Nino usually means hot, dry conditions for the northeast, wetter weather for the southwest, and westerly winds over most of the country.
Only, as Niwa’s just-released outlook for the next three months shows, things aren’t likely to run to script this season.”

A long winded way of saying we have no idea!
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December 9, 2023 9:38am
- H. Upmann
  
  Word salad at it’s best.
  
  10 1
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  December 9, 2023 9:52am
- imalwaysright
  
  Our weather is cloudy at present .
  NIWA might label that as “Atypical sunshine”
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:54am
Maggie Pie

SHEESH!!

It seems no matter what you do these days you just can’t win.
Imagine how silly it would look if the WHITE doll had a big flat nose and juju lips.

https://mol.im/a/10612799
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December 9, 2023 9:47am
- Che Guava
  
  We are told that “black is beautiful” (and they certainly can be) right up until black people are depicted accurately, then all hell breaks loose.
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:14am
- Yvette
  
  Maggie
  “A big flat nose” and generally a dark pigmented epidermis is a evolutionary adaptation which indicates such people to be better climatically developed to an equatoriral or closely adjacent suitability, while paler skin and a longer, narrower nose (to better warm incoming breath and retain or absorb warmth in exhaling) peoples indicates a suitability to cooler world zones.
  So, despite claims of close nature kinship and sensitivity, consider how many people are displaced or have immigrated to countries or environments that are not exactly “tangata whenua” – people of the land – including any “WHITE doll [with] a big flat nose.
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:55am
- Inandout
  
  Maggie, I loved the DM comment from someone who said his/her blow up doll has fat lips.
  
  13 1
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  December 9, 2023 10:55am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    And I spend a small fortune on regular Lip-Plumping.
    
    9 2
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    December 9, 2023 11:22am
    - Paul
      
      You don’t if you are smart?
      
      2 1
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      December 9, 2023 7:37pm
I remember when

The number of new cancers per year has increased considerably over the last 25 years.
The rate of new cancers has remained stable and the rate of deaths has reduced substantially for most cancers.
Cancer diagnosis rates are going up in younger adults, driven largely by rises in women and people in their 30s.

While these details are from the US I presume ours are comparable.
They would seem to raise two questions –
(a) Where is the improvement for reduced smoking rates ?
(b) What is causing the increases in cases for those in their 30s – those who should have benefited most.
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December 9, 2023 9:51am
- NothingLeft
  
  Fat people get more cancer. more cells in their bodies.
  
  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324779068/figure/fig2/AS:651464494022656@1532332647538/Non-linear-association-between-BMI-and-cancer-risk-a-The-relative-risk-of-overall.png
  
  And people are getting fatter.
  https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/courses-images/wp-content/uploads/sites/3838/2019/01/22144702/fig-1.png
  
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  December 9, 2023 11:32am
  - waikatosinger
    
    A fat person has roughly the same number of fat cells as a thin person. The individual cells are just bigger because they have more fat stored in them.
    
    … speaking as someone who is fat …
    
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    December 9, 2023 3:14pm
- MCōs
  
  Lung cancer kills more people than any other cancer in NZ and 80%+ are or were smokers
  A graph comparing rates of cigarette smoking with lung cancer
  https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Lung_Cancer_Incidece_vers_Cigarette_Consumption.svg/1280px-Lung_Cancer_Incidece_vers_Cigarette_Consumption.svg.png
  
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  December 9, 2023 1:13pm
  - Ra Henare
    
    Recently I commented to a NZ friend about the cost of a pack of cigarettes in Cambodia (approx $1.60 NZD pack of 20).
    His response. What about the lung cancer deaths.
    
    The normal response in NZ is that pricing cigarettes off the planet would stop/severely reduce lung cancer fatalities.
    
    Cant lay my hands on the stats right now(I am sure somebody will check)
    
    But NZ has a much higher lung cancer death per 100,000 population than Cambodia!!!
    
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    December 9, 2023 4:14pm
    - Benedict Yu
      
      “But NZ has a much higher lung cancer death per 100,000 population than Cambodia!!!”
      
      Maybe but lung cancer rates in New Zealand are way lower than 30 years ago. Those rates will continue to decline.
      
      I cannot be bothered looking up lung cancer rates in Cambodia. However if the smoking rates are high, the lung cancer rates will soar in the next 20 to 30 years. The people who died from lung cancer in the USA in the 1980s were people in their 50s and 60s who smoked in the peak smoking years of the 1950s and 1960s.
      
      I am not sure what you are getting at. Are you suggesting that smoking does not cause (most) lung cancers?
      
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      December 9, 2023 4:48pm
      - Ra Henare
        
        What am I getting at??
        
        Just commenting that Government intervention/social engineering(ie $45 for a pack of 20 cigarettes) compared to no Government intervention might not be such a great idea.
        
        Cambodians like many Asia Countries have been smoking for a very long time and without restrictions. But still low Lung Cancer death rate.
        
        I should say that in the 10 years I have been visiting SE Asia, the numbers of smokers has declined. I am presuming social conditions. Certainly not the heavy fist of Government.
        
        It is not a comment on the last 30 years of draconian Government intervention IN NZ.
        
        Bias. I am a former smoker who gave up at 30 years old because I had a family, nothing to do with Government pricing strategies.
        
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        December 9, 2023 10:06pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  Lung cancer in men peaked in 1984. In men in 1998. That is in the USA but it will be much the same here.
  
  https://www.lung.org/research/trends-in-lung-disease/lung-cancer-trends-brief/lung-cancer-prevalence-and-incidence-(1)#:~:text=The%20rate%20of%20new%20cases,men%20and%2011%25%20for%20women.
  
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  December 9, 2023 4:43pm
lifesgood

I really can’t bear to listen to that lefty Jason Walls on Newstalk ZB. Political editor? Pfft! And what’s with that dreadful accent? It sounds like nothing I have ever heard before. Strange for a boy from Mt Roskill, isn’t it?
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December 9, 2023 9:57am
- Beach Haven expat
  
  Apparently is a Kiwi but grew up in the States.
  
  I don’t think he’s a lefty, he’s just really naive and too inexperienced for the role. He claims things are new or unprecedented as he compares them to events since 2017 whereas Barry could stretch back to Muldoon for context.
  
  She might be biased, but it’s hilarious listening to HDPA when he’s on. She clearly thinks he’s a child.
  
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  December 9, 2023 9:23pm
Yvette

ACT’s Principles appear to be –
1 – The Government has the right to govern New Zealand. 
2 – The Government will protect all New Zealanders’ authority over their land and other property. 
3 – All New Zealanders are equal under the law with the same rights and duties

And that “4 – Government shall be secular” should perhaps be added.

But aren’t ACT’s 3 principles already in New Zealand law, just not together anywhere that they can be readily found?
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December 9, 2023 10:04am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Yes, they are constitutional principles, certainly. They’re just not principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:52am
  - Yvette
    
    mikenmildagain – “They’re just not principles of the Treaty of Waitangi.”
    
    • “The Government has the right to govern New Zealand” is contained in Article 1 of the Treaty
    • “The Government will protect all New Zealanders’ authority over their land and other property” is in confirming Maori have rights to their property and implies other people have rights to what is theirs
    • ” All New Zealanders are equal under the law with the same rights and duties” is in Article 3 – rights and duties of British subjects or “citizens”
    _____________
    
    If Government was declared totally secular, the opening Parliament prayer needs to drop the first sentence and change “pray for” to “seek” –
    
    Almighty God, we give thanks for the blessings which have been bestowed on us. Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and pray for guidance in our deliberations …
    
    to
    Laying aside all personal interests, we acknowledge the King and seek guidance in our deliberations …
    
    But such a declaration of secularity should eliminate all references to te Ao Maori – the Maori world view when it shifts into any expression of beliefs that gods, or atua, inhabit the natural world and shape the destinies of people.
    
    TRANSCRIPT: Governor General Dame Cindy Kiro’s full Speech from the Throne
    Karanga ki te rangi
    Karanga ki te whenua
    Karanga ki ngā pū ngahere
    Karanga ki ngā maunga kōrero
    Karanga ki ngā wai e tere nei.
    E ngā rangatira, e ngā mema Pāremata, e ngā tāngata katoa o Aotearoa, ka nui ngā mihi matakoakoa ki a koutou katoa. Kia ora.
    
    Google translate –
    Call to heaven
    Call to earth
    Call the bush guns
    Call to the mountains of stories
    Call to the rushing waters.
    Ladies and Gentlemen, Members of Parliament and all the people of New Zealand, thank you very much. Hello.
    
    – would probably need a little rewriting
    
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    December 9, 2023 11:05am
    - Dave
      
      Karanga ki ngā pū ngahere
      
      Call the bush guns??? (‘Call for bush fires’ in Google translate.)
      
      Yes, it will need quite a lot of rewriting.
      
      And rethinking. Biculturalists like to tell us how learning a second language will give us insight into the culture, but otiose stuff like this tells me how much this animist way of thinking is utterly alien to my preferred modes of thought and expression.
      
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      December 9, 2023 1:07pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Yes they bloody are, go to Waitangi and read them, don’t listen to that redefined bullshit of the 70s.
    
    The all NZers are equal is what one of the principles means in English, this crap that Māori don’t get the same rights as NZers is utter bullshit, the crap about Māori not getting health care is crap, show me where it says get you Māori have yo wait for Whitney first? It’s utter crap, you do not get health care if you don’t ask for it, Aldo this shit that naori are untrusting of health officials is the cover up for not getting help
    
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    December 9, 2023 12:52pm
  - Cassandra
    
    mike: the Principles are whatever the government says they are. Because Labour didn’t specify when it added a mention to appease Koro Wetere the door was opened to Cooke. Parliament is entitled to establish what they are. Act’s version is a start. We can’t keep finding new meanings of the Treaty. And we need to make it plain that it’s a governance thing, not a guideline for universities or any other body.
    
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    December 9, 2023 12:57pm
  - Clyde
    
    What the East Polynesians and the representatives of the Crown signed was the treaty. Anything since, including the bleatings of the milkybar kid, are irrelevant.
    
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    December 9, 2023 12:59pm
surfing

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/bay-of-plenty-times/news/tauranga-city-council-transport-boss-brendan-bisley-leaves-amid-restructuring/CL64IYD7HZAQFN5SOQQPDROBNM/

I’ve mentioned this council employee previously,for almost single handedly destroying Tauranga transport infrastructure.

Now they make him redundant, after doing all the dirty work that noone else wanted to be associated with.
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December 9, 2023 10:10am
MCōs

Interesting piece by Boris Sokratov about a number of things including being Māori
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/boris-sokratov-private-health-cover-saved-my-life-but-im-worried-for-my-maori-cousins/ZM4IZZJRM5D3DODKJZNSNZYNXQ/
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December 9, 2023 10:33am
- Ghost
  
  It’s a mind frame, some Māori buy into, many just get on with their lives, work hard, have private health insurance, own their own business and homes and don’t buy into the bullshit that because they are Māori they should play the victim card.
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:41am
mikenmildagain

I see Elon Musk is whining that another corporation, Disney, won’t advertise on X.
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December 9, 2023 10:41am
- Hollyfield
  
  He is saying he would rather forgo Disney’s advertising money than kowtow to Disney and remove X’s free speech principles.
  
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  December 9, 2023 10:49am
- Inandout
  
  m&m, keep up with the play. Musk told Disney’s CEO to FO as he won’t be told by advertisers what he can and can’t do.
  
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  December 9, 2023 11:01am
- All_on_Red
  
  Disney are probably more happy advertising on Grooming sites Tiktok and Instagram.
  Meanwhile, looks like Bob Igor’s job is in danger.
  ‘In a statement Trian Fund Management (they have $3 billion in Shares) said, “This morning, following conversations with Disney’s CEO, Disney extended an offer to Trian to meet with the board but informed Trian that the board is turning down Trian’s recent request for Board representation, including Nelson Peltz.”
  
  Trian’s statement continued, “Since we gave Disney the opportunity to prove it could ‘right the ship’ last February, up to our reengagement weeks ago, shareholders lost ~$70 billion of value. Disney’s share price has underperformed proxy peers and the broader market over every relevant period during the last decade and over the tenure of each incumbent director. Investor confidence is low, key strategic questions loom, and even Disney’s CEO is acknowledging that the company’s challenges are greater than previously believed. ‘
  
  Down $70 Billion!
  
  Elsewhere in a galaxy not too far away..
  “Dec 6 (Reuters) – Elon Musk’s SpaceX has approached investors about another tender offer that would value the company at above $175 billion’
  ‘Billionaire investor Ron Baron, who according to CNBC owns more than $1 billion worth of shares in the rocket company, last month said that SpaceX will be worth about $500 billion by 2030.’
  https://www.reuters.com/technology/space/musks-spacex-approaches-investors-another-tender-offer-bloomberg-news-2023-12-06/
  
  Not sure Musk is too worried if X loses a few million here or there.
  
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  December 9, 2023 11:25am
  - Matt Long
    
    The Bee noted MAP (Minor Attracted Persons) content on X declined 80% with Disney leaving.
    
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    December 9, 2023 12:59pm
- Keith White
  
  I see mma is whining.
  
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  December 9, 2023 12:43pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Not true, they stated they would pull advertising over his mistake over Gaza, he told them on air to get F…d
  
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  December 9, 2023 12:54pm
  - All_on_Red
    
    Actually Disney, and others, pulled their advertising due to the Fraud committed by Media Matters.
    
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    December 9, 2023 1:12pm
- Paul
  
  Much like you whine that Musk is whining.
  
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  December 9, 2023 7:47pm
Paulus

Am once again concerned to learn that in the Tairawhiti, East Coast flood region there are 48 uninsured properties.
Are we the taxpayer expected, like the Christchurch fiasco, expected to pay up to these people ?
I understand Maori are heavily involved also.
This is a Regional /Local Council issue not the ordinary New Zealand Taxpayer surely.
If so why insure ?
Auckland West Coasts people have similar problems, which the Auckland Ratepayer is to fund up I think I read.
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December 9, 2023 11:06am
Maggie Pie

NewsTalkZB reporting…..

‘UNICEF say good progress being made in reducing child poverty in NZ’

FFS! There is no such thing as ‘child poverty’ in this country…. only child neglect.
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December 9, 2023 11:17am
- Ghost
  
  Child poverty is real. I recently came across this photo of a starving child living in poverty. Do you know for just $1 a day you can give this child a warm safe home, 3 meals a day, running water. Come on people, let’s give this a child a Xmas they can remember. Look at the joy on his face when a stranger knocked on the car door he was sleeping in and gave him a sausage
  
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  December 9, 2023 11:22am
  - Jack5
    
    😲That’s a sad case you highlight, Ghost.
    
    First glance: Poor boy looks middle aged.
    
    Second, closer look: clearly brain development frozen about age 11.
    
    This is what happens in fast-food addiction.
    
    This lad has to live on sausage rolls while Right-wing politicians dine at Bellamy’s.
    
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    December 9, 2023 12:50pm
    - ClanMcleod
      
      Jack5 – 16 hours a day mining for lithium to save the planet will age you very quickly. Poor little chap.
      
      This was a photo of his first day at work.
      
      https://tinyurl.com/2tmxbcv2
      
      He’s so lucky the Labour government came up with amazing laws to make him stop smoking before it became a problem. 😔
      
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      December 9, 2023 2:32pm
    - imalwaysright
      
      Wouldn’t be the first time he’s experienced the voluntary administration of meat orally.
      
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      December 9, 2023 3:43pm
  - ClanMcleod
    
    And a ginga too, how tragic…..😔
    
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    December 9, 2023 2:28pm
- Inandout
  
  Maggie, the UN has a tarnished image.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_by_UN_peacekeepers
  
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  December 9, 2023 11:25am
- Maggie Pie
  
  There’s no doubt poverty IS real in some countries.
  It’s incredible the number of heart-wrenching requests you get on FB these days from people in places like Africa etc begging for help.
  I always give them a ‘like’.
  
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  December 9, 2023 11:58am
  - Ra Henare
    
    Good on you Maggie.
    I live in a 3rd world Country where 60% of the people live below the poverty line.
    
    Being in “poverty”” in NZ would be beyond their wildest dreams. They would consider themselves “”rich pricks.”” Free medical, free schooling, money from the Governments every two weeks. Plus other benefits.
    And all the while relaxing in good accommodation with running water and sewerage(indoor toilets)
    
    On my trips home I get enraged at the bludgers sitting on the footpath with paper cups out. They get a vocal lashing from me and usually slink off.
    
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    December 9, 2023 4:24pm
    - Maggie Pie
      
      And good on you too Ra. “Great minds” and all that stuff 😀
      
      Actually, my partner was propositioned once by a homeless woman camped in a shop doorway on Queen Street.
      She came right up to him and said…. “You kin take me ‘ome for a coupla bucks luv”
      So he gave her two dollars, picked up her cardboard box, and ran off.
      
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      December 9, 2023 5:13pm
      - Ra Henare
        
        Very droll Maggie.
        I am sure many missed the humour 🙂
        Her home being the cardboard box.
        
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        December 9, 2023 8:15pm
- NothingLeft
  
  When you treat adults like infants – giving them handouts without demanding adult levels of responsibility and behaviour, then over time they inevitably become infantile. Easy responsibility free welfare turns people into unhappy life long losers, destructive of their own lives and those of their children.
  
  Charity/handouts have to come with a very strong social contract quid quo pro in behavior. It doesn’t seem to scale in a non-destructive way outside of very close relationships of family or community where that behaviour can be monitored tracked and censured.
  
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  December 9, 2023 12:38pm
vand

“The current interpretation of the treaty has enjoyed firm bipartisan support for over thirty years. It will not be overturned easily”.

Yes Mike the elite who have much to lose eg academics and NGO do gooders that trap their “clients” at the bottom of the heap . Thus the declining outcomes for Maori after billions of dollars of govt programmes (aside from iwi settlements ).The tragedy of modern tribalism. Almost 50,000 more children in benefit income families under Labour.

Types like Tamihere’s wife and others taking a $6 million management fee from “that trust” to patronise Maori (sorry, the official version is presumably is to provide “wraparound services”.Rorts everywhere helping no one except the rorters
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December 9, 2023 11:40am
- Swifty
  
  Successive US governments have practiced positive discrimination policies for Native Americans since the early 1900s – however they remain the only group below Black Americans in social indicators.
  
  Fancy that. Over 100 years of consistent government policy and billions and billions of tax dollars spent and their policy objectives still remain not even remotely met.
  
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  December 9, 2023 12:55pm
  - Tom Hunter
    
    Breaking the Culture of Welfare Dependency:
    
    In 1983 and 1984, 80% of the Tahltan Nation were on welfare and unemployment stood at 98%, following the dispossession of property and other human rights across spanning generations. Severe alcohol and drug problems characterized social life, along with high suicide rates and very low levels of educational attainment.
    …
    Inspired by the memory of a previously successful era of trading, pre-colonization, Chief Jerry Asp began a series of reforms to restore economic freedom, grounded in historic cultural values and norms…Chief Asp was clear that wealth was always to be created and could never be taken. Federal funding was firmly declined and returned to the government, along with all conditions it required.
    …
    By 2013, it had all changed: 100% employment, zero suicides and an above-the-national-average graduation rate, from universities to trade schools.
    
    Tamahere and company will never figure this out, partly because they’ll grift at the highest levels from all that government largesse.
    
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    December 9, 2023 1:24pm
Chuck Bird

This brings hope.

The Arab Revolt against Hamas: Israel’s Golden Opportunity? | Our Middle East

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo3OIrfkUN8
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December 9, 2023 1:07pm
- Ra Henare
  
  Its a Video from JNS.
  So guess what JNS is???
  
  Jewish News Syndicate.
  
  So unbiased, selective news???
  
  You do know its a crime in Israel to support Hamas, right? ergo Israeli Arabs will most certainly condemn actions of Hamas.
  
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  December 9, 2023 4:33pm
Maggie Pie

And here’s something you don’t see very often 🙁

The Horrid reporting…. Four ‘Auckland Dental Companies’ have been put into liquidation after the IRD took action to try and recover unpaid taxes from the businesses directed by dentist Dr Scott Waghorn.

https://debtorinsight.co.nz/debtors/20678-epsom-dental-care-limited

My partner was very surprised. He has a couple of Dental Surgeon clients that he has sourced classic cars for over the years for their collections.
As he just said, Dentists are the last people you’d think would get into the sh*t financially.
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December 9, 2023 1:11pm
- All_on_Red
  
  Covid hurt them. One of our local Dentist’s had to sell his business and leave.
  
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  December 9, 2023 1:16pm
- MCōs
  
  We spent thousands at the dentist in the last 2-3 years, but they have a lot of outgoing.
  The personnel are paid big bucks and the kit costs an arm and a leg.
  I noticed our dentist just has a shitty old Japanese import in the car park
  
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  December 9, 2023 2:11pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Don’t let that fool ya Cossie 😎
    My partner will often just take the SQ7 if he’s meeting a client for the first time.
    
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    December 9, 2023 2:24pm
  - kevn
    
    mcos… Maybe parking skills are poor down sooth? Leave the ‘good’ car at home.
    
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    December 9, 2023 3:16pm
  - Observer of Life
    
    MCos: Not the same for the dentist down the road from me. He and other half drive flash European vehicles and children driving the latest and greatest sports cars. But then he’s well known to be convincing his patients they need work that isn’t necessary. Sad for those who haven’t worked it out YET.
    
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    December 9, 2023 3:50pm
  - Ra Henare
    
    You do realise you can fly to Singapore, Bangkok or other Asian Cities that practice medical Tourism.
    
    They have all the latest equipment and US, Australian, English trained dentists.
    
    Fly stay a few days holiday and all for LESS than the cost of similar treatment in NZ.
    
    I had two caps done recently 24 hours to get an appointment. 3 visits for each tooth. (preparation, fitting and followup. All the latest gear.
    
    $250USD for both in highly respected dental clinic in Siem Reap.
    
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    December 9, 2023 5:22pm
- Tauhei Notts
  
  This is the sad part of the dentistry profession morphing into the dentistry industry. Rather similar to the accountancy profession morphing into the accounting industry.
  I have had professional dentists seeking my professional services as an accountant. Nowadays they get an industrialist with a basic knowledge of accountancy to help them.
  
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  December 9, 2023 5:50pm
- Paul
  
  Clue is in the name.
  
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  December 9, 2023 7:51pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Te Pūkenga council chair resigns after push by new minister.
Slowly it starts with the DCMs.
“So they are still doing everything that they’ve always been doing, but they just didn’t have any power to make any decisions. That was all sitting with highly-paid people in a bloated head office,”
What? No power to make decisions? What the hell are they doing there then?
This ‘highly paid’ doing nothing has to stop. On your bikes!

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/te-p%C5%ABkenga-council-chair-resigns-after-push-by-new-minister/ar-AA1lbiOC?
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December 9, 2023 1:27pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Well it’s a start, and long may it continue. It only happened in Govt Departments because it was bullied. Very rare would you get this in the Private Sector.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/m%C4%81ori-names-first-waka-kotahi-now-k%C4%81inga-ora-te-whatu-ora-among-government-departments-likely-to-revert-to-english-name-first/ar-AA1laX2s?
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December 9, 2023 1:29pm
- info@cruzpro.com
  
  It only makes sense to give names to organizations that most people can understand. 99% of the people in New Zealand can understand English. Very few understand Maori.
  
  This is a no- Brainer. Thank you National, Act and NZ First!
  
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  December 9, 2023 7:00pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

See this journalist shut things down. He took Kayleigh McEnany’s words and twisted them. Kayleigh was saying what the Democrats want – meaning what the Democrats want you to hear.
I don’t know who this clown Mitch McCann is but he mentions Josie Pagani – known leftie. There ya go!
10% tariff for goods from NZ? For America that is peanuts.
The whole item jumps all over the place – is the idea to confuse the reader?
Personally I see a Trump win as good for NZ.

We know Trump will be the nominee, and we know Trump will win – short od assassination.
Trump 2024!

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/why-president-trump-2-0-could-be-a-disaster-for-new-zealand/ar-AA1ldEJ7?
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December 9, 2023 1:59pm
mogg

Time for some clear rules, the full chant at pro Palestine protests is “from the river to the sea etc, etc, etc” which in London protests has been followed by “kill the Jews”.
At Thursdays pro- Palestine protest on Lambton Quay the loud chant was rapid fire “from the river etc”. When standing right next to them I could hear a lower volume sub chant which was not at all clear except for the last words of “the Jews”. Probably only one or two people involved, but they need to be arrested.
This is already illegal and unlike the disgusting display by police in London, it needs to be enforced.
Protesters in London have been emboldened to the point where they have vandalised Jewish owned property, what comes next?
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December 9, 2023 2:10pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Dropping like flies. The heat in the kitchen is global boiling.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/tauranga-city-council-transport-boss-brendan-bisley-leaves-amid-restructuring/ar-AA1lcUsp?
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December 9, 2023 2:12pm
- ClanMcleod
  
  They’re leaving before they are kicked out on their arses. Parasites know the game is up. No doubt a tidy handshake will be part of the severance money.
  
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  December 9, 2023 2:23pm
Maggie Pie

A bestie asks…

Seems there’s a yuge number of people named O’Brien holding positions in Wellington government departments and the MoJ.
Are they related I wonder?

Probably just a coincidence.

https://www.tiktok.com/@rachruby/video/7308889611290365185
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December 9, 2023 2:48pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  O’Brien is one of the commonest Irish surnames….
  
  Must have been keen on breeding….something about papists believing every sperm is a sacred sperm.
  
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  December 9, 2023 3:51pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    LOL!! just read that 3 times. Thort you said… ‘rapists’
    
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    December 9, 2023 4:00pm
    - imalwaysright
      
      Bet you two wouldn’t bang on about Jews like that.
      Boring.
      
      2 1
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      December 9, 2023 4:30pm
    - MCōs
      
      That’s a bit surprising considering you’re one yourself
      
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      December 9, 2023 4:32pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/301024013/tauranga-womans-purse-and-bankcards-stolen-during-husbands-medical-event
Name and photo of this arsehole please.
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December 9, 2023 3:21pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  Got a better chance of having it published now than we have for the last 6 years.
  
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  December 9, 2023 3:40pm
MCōs

Shane MacGowan’s funeral
https://x.com/gavreilly/status/1733176579579056369?s=61&t=yFkzCNMWRCaVt1p5eRxUog
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December 9, 2023 3:30pm
Maggie Pie

At the risk of putting some people off their dinner….did you realise, that when those filthy Hamas terrorists set about slaughtering, raping and kidnapping innocent Israelis on Oct 7 – it wasn’t only women and girls they raped 🙁

https://twitter.com/MarinaMedvin/status/1733301273254904289

No wonder so many Rainbow Greens come out in support.
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December 9, 2023 4:40pm
- NothingLeft
  
  I would bet that the hundreds to thousands of captured Hamas fighters are not enjoying their time in custody. The gloves will be well and truly off.
  
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  December 9, 2023 4:54pm
  - waikatosinger
    
    People who attack civilians in a time of peace and engage in massacre and rape are not enemy combatants in the sense of the Geneva convention. I rather hope the Israelis just shoot them all.
    
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    December 9, 2023 6:11pm
    - Ra Henare
      
      Of course the same rules should apply to Israeli settlers who kill Palestinians?
      
      https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/3/israeli-settler-attacks-against-palestinians-by-the-numbers
      
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      December 9, 2023 8:20pm
Swifty

Douglas Murray interviews Israeli President Herzog:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g0J44KfJXJk
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December 9, 2023 6:54pm
Inandout

Well those 3 heads of universities who made themselves look idiots in front of Congress by dodging the accusation that Jews were being persecuted on campus hopefully will get sacked. In the case of Harvard one Jewish donor has withdrawn $100 million of support from the university and if others have any sense they will follow suit because a figure of over $600 million is needed to wake that institution. Nazi behaviour on campuses must be stamped on before parents take their offspring elsewhere..
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December 9, 2023 9:38pm

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