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December 2, 2023 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 02 December 2023

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kiwikidsnz

Spot the difference.

NZ prison 30 months paroled in15 months
https://i.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/133146562/parole-for-driver-who-killed-five-timaru-teenagers

Oz prison 12 years non parole 7 years
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-01/buxton-crash-sentence-tyrell-edwards-jailed/103175150
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December 2, 2023 8:01am
- Pavel
  
  Former WWE wrestler given 17 years for DUI and killing one 75yo male.
  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tammy-sunny-sytch-gets17-years-prison-deadly-dui-crash-former-wwe-star/
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:42am
  - NothingLeft
    
    Excessive. A couple of years yes, but what value does 17years serve to society? More than a million in jail costs, and ensuring that this chick will then almost certainly be a burden on welfare for life.
    
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    December 2, 2023 11:07am
    - cmm
      
      It serves as a warning to others.
      
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      December 2, 2023 1:01pm
      - NothingLeft
        
        Drunk driving stats in USA haven’t changed significantly in 30 years. Clearly deterrence is achieving little to nothing. The lengthy prison sentences appear to be nothing more than a waste of life and money.
        
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        December 2, 2023 1:31pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      NothingLeft: “Excessive. A couple of years yes, but what value does 17years serve to society?”
      
      What solution would you suggest instead?
      
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      December 3, 2023 1:48pm
- NothingLeft
  
  I can’t see what benefit is served by keeping this young idiot in jail for an extended period. He’s killed his mates and will be carrying that burden around for life.
  
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  December 2, 2023 10:05am
  - kiwikidsnz
    
    Lady Justice has scales in one hand & a sword in the other.
    
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    December 2, 2023 10:20am
  - Sacha
    
    Duh. The first time is the hardest –
    
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    December 2, 2023 10:32am
  - Pavel
    
    It’s called deterrence. Maybe if you got 7 years mandatory jail time for killing someone due to driving like an idiot it might put people off from attempting it. Accidents are accidents but when you’re intentionally driving recklessly there should be a severe price to pay. I can’t speak for everyone but personally I have a list of crimes I’d commit if the jail times weren’t so harsh.
    
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    December 2, 2023 10:38am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Deterrence has less impact on young dumb men at the tail of the bell curve, particularly when the occurrence is miniscule and they don’t pay any attention to the grown-up world anyway. They’re impulsive risk takers, who think they are immortal/bullet proof and who frequently don’t think ahead. Evolution designed them to be that way.
      
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      December 2, 2023 12:11pm
      - cmm
        
        “Deterrence has less impact”
        
        That is why you need to make it big. Big enough that it does have impact.
        
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        December 2, 2023 1:02pm
      - Bullion
        
        Agree. People in here trying to rationalise the irrational
        
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        December 2, 2023 3:03pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        “They’re impulsive risk takers, who think they are immortal/bullet proof and who frequently don’t think ahead. Evolution designed them to be that way.”
        
        Agree with that bit. However in a society with mature adults in charge they are reigned in rather than celebrated and encouraged. I’m seeing the roads progressively being filled up with aggressive and impulsive dickheads of this type. I’m also seeing car companies marketing large urban assault vehicles to these aggressive under developed people. Some adverts even have thuggish looking snarling bogans driving them. The govt here then wrings it’s hands wondering why the road toll is still increasing in spite of all their ever expanding nanny state controls. You also get incompetent/arrogant older drivers buying these urban assault vehicles to “feel safer” on the road (screw everyone else just trying to get from A to B in as affordable manner as possible).
        
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        December 3, 2023 1:59pm
krazykiwi

No time today for analysis of the MoH data leaked by an insider, but I will pull the dataset next week. Short story: Anonymized, record level Ministry data including 4,193,438 vaccination records apparently shows a causative, proximal relationship between vax shots and more than 10,000 deaths.

There has been some of commentary on this here It’s Time for Criminal Charges to be Filed Against New Zealand Ministry of Health Officials .

This whistleblower is a hero, and the gaslighting by the Ministry and MSM is a vile as it is predictable.

I wonder if Sean Plunket will wake up from his pro-vax trance and actually, you know, investigate?
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December 2, 2023 8:01am
- Opie
  
  Hipkins telling anyone who will listen that the new government has no moral compass.
  
  How about forcing kids to get jabbed against medsafe advice? And that’s just one thing he did.
  
  I’m not going to say what I think of him as it won’t get posted but I hope that Winston actually gets this looked at and hipkins, bloomfield and ardern face actual investigations
  
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  December 2, 2023 8:10am
  - goNZ1
    
    Spending my hard earned taxes on funding sex changes for alphabet people like Labour has is what I call lake of moral compass
    
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    December 3, 2023 12:54am
- kevn
  
  More data… Thanks Tom.
  https://nominister.wordpress.com/2023/12/02/covid-19-vaccines-and-vaccine-mandates/#respond
  
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  December 2, 2023 8:39am
- imalwaysright
  
  Good work Kraz,
  Plunket, on this matter, is an example of willful ignorance . Unfortunately he makes it worse by trying to humiliate callers who have concerns or information.
  He is on to the media led climate scam but can’t comprehend that the media are also a major protagonist in the covid scam.
  
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  December 2, 2023 8:49am
- Bridgenag
  
  Not Just Plasmids: Biological Contamination of Vaccines
  …and other pharmaceuticals, and more
  
  “Let me make a prediction. We are going to hear more and more about drug-resistant non-viral infections running amok. It will be presented as a big surprise, despite the WEF writing for years about antimicrobial resistance being the next big threat. ”
  
  https://open.substack.com/pub/tessa/p/not-just-plasmids-biological-contamination?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:07am
- bennerg
  
  As reported in the news:
  
  “The employee had no clinical background or expert vaccine knowledge”
  
  This is where the media are parroting the gaslighting from the ministry. The guy was an IT expert – he says he designed and built the database to record the data.
  
  So he is a talented individual, to build such systems. And as part of that skill is the ability to analyse and extract data – you cannot build these systems without having such a skill.
  
  Raw data does not lie. From what I can see what was released was straight forward “slicing and dicing” of the data – the sort anyone can do in Excel – not the sort of manipulation that is done in climate circles such as reducing the historical temperatures to make it look like present day temperatures are increasing.
  
  Elsewhere it was stated by the ministry:
  
  “the man had used Te Whatu Ora data that was not available to the public”
  
  When such a simple analysis shows such alarming indications, the following questions must be asked:
  
  1. Why was this data not available to the public? It is about us after all!
  
  2. Who else was privy to this data?
  
  3. Who is responsible for reporting on this dataset?
  
  4. What results did they obtain?
  
  5. If they did obtain a similar result (and remember data does not lie) why was this not brought to the attention of both Bloomfield and the Minister, and why was there not an immediate cessation of Covid-19 “vaccinations”?
  
  The new government needs to immediately bring in independent assessors to look at the data, and replicate (or not as the case may be) the results published.
  
  This has to happen for public confidence in our so called Health system. And if we are not being treated with the highest standards of professionalism, then heads must roll.
  
  PS: And a couple of Knight/Dame hoods as well.
  
  ===========================================
  A couple of points from the data:
  
  * One vaccinator had a mortality rate of 25%. One in four people that got the vaccine from that vaccinator is now dead. Other vaccinators were similar.
  
  * At another vaccination centre, of the 923 people vaccinated there, 276 are now dead.
  
  * In just one particular vaccination centre in Invercargill, 51 people were vaccinated within the space of just two hours. All 51 are now dead.
  
  * It has been concluded that the probability of these deaths not being from the COVID-19 vaccine are 100 billion to one.
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:13am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Benne
    We need an independent task force with powers of arrest.
    They should offer immunity to whistle blowers (apart from the main protagonists ).
    
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    December 2, 2023 9:27am
    - Che Guava
      
      From a systemic perspective, much worse than arrests and independent task forces and carrying on as before is an understanding among the majority of the public as to how illegitimate and untrustworthy the power structure is. There’s no coming back from that. Once trust is gone it’s never coming back.
      
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      December 2, 2023 10:12am
  - MCōs
    
    You don’t think that if 51 people in Invercargill had died like that someone might have noticed?
    The families, the funeral homes, the grave diggers?
    That’s 51 families all living in approximately the same location in Invercargill
    
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    December 2, 2023 10:01am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Probably all paid off by the guvmint.
      
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      December 2, 2023 10:07am
    - Keith White
      
      MC: look at the death notices in the area newspapers for that period, and your question will be answered.
      
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      December 2, 2023 10:21am
      - MCōs
        
        What do the say?
        
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        December 2, 2023 12:27pm
      - krazykiwi
        
        Try this. Oamaru.
        https://rumble.com/v1fq2on-ninety-four-freshly-dug-graves-in-a-single-small-town-in-new-zealand
        
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        December 2, 2023 12:50pm
      - Keith White
        
        MCos: I’ve been doing this research both online and in physical (when back in NZ) libraries for very many months now, because the MOH would not release any data and will not explain excess deaths.
        
        The reason I have been doing this research is in preparation for my lawsuit against the New Zealand Medical Council, because of (a) the ‘threat letter’ that if practicing doctors spoke contrary to NZMC (and the now-defunct NZMA) instructions, we would face disciplinary action and loss of registration and therefore career; then (b) subsequently because of the hidden MedSafe advice, but primarily because of the lack of NZ response or medical care for a severely vaccine-damaged immediate young family member, coerced into getting the mandated injection to ‘save’ graduation, career and employment, who subsequently had to go overseas for diagnosis and treatment up to and including ICU stays, and who 2 years later remains in daily treatment, probably for the duration of a now-shortened life.
        
        I explain the above because it’s why I do not lack motivation.
        
        You ask me: “what do they (the newspapers) say?”
        
        I’m certainly not going to detail my results here. You can do the same research I have.
        
        It’s been a sad task.
        
        A death is something that can’t be hidden, unlike lying about the causes of illness in the living.
        
        The MOH and NZMC and politicians can keep lying – as they have been doing for years now – about “mRNA injections are safe and effective… only 4 vaccine-related deaths ever happened… sudden deaths and cancers and clots and diseases would have happened anyway” etc.
        
        But if/when I have a day in court, there will be (from my side) no arguments and debates; there will be (anonymized by name but specific by location) graphics and figures correlating the vaccine lots delivered in a location, with the deaths in that location before and after the vaccine was administered.
        
        That was the only way I figured I could demonstrate correlation, as the MOH would not release the actual figures.
        
        Now of course the whistleblower has released the death figures for not just NZ but the work to see. That’s really brave of him and seriously important that we have light and clarity on what’s been deliberately been done that has killed and injured hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders, directly and indirectly, by politicians and medical and other bureaucrats.
        
        It’s taken a lot of time to get this far and there is no end yet in sight but hey –
        
        “La revanche est un plat qui se mange froid.”
        
        We’ll see who tires first.
        
        Never forget, never forgive.
        
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        December 2, 2023 1:36pm
      - krazykiwi
        
        Keith, thank you for your persistence in pursuit of justice. Everyone benefits from sunlight, except perhaps the wicked who will one day get experience retribution. More power to you, sir.
        
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        December 2, 2023 4:23pm
      - Sacha
        
        Or ask the morticians – are they still finding higher numbers among the the vaccinated?
        How about the turbo-cancers?
        
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        December 2, 2023 7:02pm
    - bennerg
      
      Assuming that the data is correct (and it is MoH data!) then that is what it is.
      
      You can download the yearly death data from Invercargill (and elsewhere) here:
      
      https://figure.nz/chart/1WdlzLBou0RzmBrp-L0tpNFBukdspbVJk
      
      It seems 2022 was a significant jump up:
      
      2014 531
      2015 579
      2016 540
      2017 552
      2018 510
      2019 573
      2020 579
      2021 570
      2022 615
      
      As I said before, and independent analysis has to be done. We are simply not seeing or getting that, and whatever the reason, we need to address it.
      
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      December 2, 2023 10:26am
      - Keith White
        
        This person* has independently confirmed the accuracy of the analysis.
        
        *Harvey Risch, MD, PhD. Professor Emeritus and Senior Research Scientist in Epidemiology / Affiliated. Faculty, Yale Institute for Global Health.
        
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        December 2, 2023 10:54am
    - Pineapple Lumps
      
      That’s the beauty of data analysis. If this is in the data then the real questions are:
      – why has this not been observed already?
      – why has the media not reported on it already?
      
      So now the data is out in the open there is an opportunity for some independent analysis.
      
      Why is that not a good thing?
      
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      December 2, 2023 10:33am
      - Nickc2
        
        why has the media not reported on it already?
        If we had a 4th Estate, they probably would have reported by now. Instead, we have a bunch of political aspirants masquerading as Journalists.
        
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        December 2, 2023 10:45am
      - mawm
        
        Pineapple – we have to apply the usual caveats about rubbish in = rubbish out. His data is compelling, the MoH seems to have acknowledged the use of MoH data but we do need an independent data analyst to be given ALL the data available and analysed in an open and transparent manner.
        
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        December 2, 2023 12:01pm
  - rangitoto
    
    You have to ask if those vaccinators with the high following death rate were vaccinating prople in care homes. People who are likely to pop off any day. It means nothing without reference to the normal life expectancy of the group being vaccinated. Looking at the overall death rate stats for the country there was an up tick last year that is higher than the population growth but hard to say if it is statistically significant.
    
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    December 2, 2023 10:09am
    - Keith White
      
      Any day more than 120 NZers die is highly statistically significant.
      
      “Looking at the government data, he ran a query to identify days when more than one hundred and twenty people died in New Zealand. Historic peaks above this level, as Smith demonstrates, are rare. This normal distribution of deaths at this level is only rarely exceeded on the occasional day, or for disaster events, such as the 2011 Christchurch earthquake, mosque shooting in 2017, or an unusually bad influenza season.
      
      and
      
      “New Zealand had a highly unusual winter flu season in June-July 2019, and no days exceeded the harm-signal level in 2020. However, in June and July 2021 Smith observed 10 days where mortality exceeded the signal-level. This could be attributed to either COVID-19 or to the injections. Yet not more than a few deaths due to COVID-19 were registered in this time period. This uptick in deaths coincided with expansion of the vaccine rollout (from July 2021 onwards).
      
      If mRNA was not the cause – then what was the cause of this unprecedented sustained spike in mortality and why are we not being told?
      
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      December 2, 2023 10:30am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Well put Keith ,
        And if our health professionals can’t or won’t explain then the only logical remedy is to replace them an launch an investigation .
        
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        December 2, 2023 10:59am
      - Pineapple Lumps
        
        Keith I appreciate your posts on here, and believe you have paid a high price over the scamdemic years.
        
        Q. If mRNA was not the cause – then what was the cause of this unprecedented sustained spike in mortality and why are we not being told?
        
        A. Stupidity, delusion, corruption….
        
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        December 2, 2023 11:20am
    - mawm
      
      Rangi – I believe his data answers that question. Some of the vaccine centres highlighted as “high mortality” centres were indeed elderly care centres while others were walk-in centres where one assumes the vaccinated represented a cross-section of our healthy population.
      
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      December 2, 2023 12:12pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    If you are vaccinating people in old folks homes then mortality rates will of course be high in short order.
    
    I’ll be very interested to see detailed analysis though. NZ is a fantastic test case for dangers of the vax as we had basically zero covid during 6 month vaccination program, and 4 million vaxxed provide a huge statistically powerful data set that can reveal subtle impacts with high certainty.
    
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    December 2, 2023 11:11am
  - Burtland
    
    if there’s nothing to see, then the MoH should explain the data,
    instead they play the whistleblower
    
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    December 2, 2023 11:23am
  - mawm
    
    Bennerg – This is MoH data, which they seem to acknowledge by accusing him of using MoH data not available to others. The MoH exists to analyse health data whether it is from heart disease, obesity or vaccines, etc. I find it hard to believe that the MoH had not noticed the increased deaths AND that the DG for Health had not been informed And that he had not informed the PM. It is truly a “tank emptying” event – I would also run away and hide overseas.
    
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    December 2, 2023 11:55am
    - bennerg
      
      One hallmark of the previous government was the elimination of goals/targets, and data to measure against.
      
      All the while claiming to be the most open and transparent government ever!
      
      If nothing else I would expect, nay demand, that our new government have as a priority, the publishing of up to date raw data that anyone can view and analyse. Crowd fund the analysis! In the UK the data they publish is a couple of weeks up to date. In NZ is is two years old: 2020 is the latest!
      
      https://www.tewhatuora.govt.nz/our-health-system/data-and-statistics/mortality-web-tool/#mortality-web-tool
      
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      December 2, 2023 12:41pm
- Grunter
  
  Looking forward to your analysis KK.
  
  On the face of it this maybe the point when ‘the dam breaks’ and data finally nails these lying bastards.
  
  I still don’t understand Sean Plunkets position? He is usually a critical thinker but he just shuts down anything to do with the jab.
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:23am
  - ISeeRed
    
    It could be as simple as: he’s had the jab and doesn’t want to believe he was conned.
    
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    December 2, 2023 2:22pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  Thanks for that. I really wanted to understand this. I have read the slide pack and I cannot adequately follow the analysis. I had to revisit “Poisson distributions”. I have an above average competency in data analysis so Sean Plunket will have no hope. The slide pack is simply not designed for your average audience.
  
  Is there a summary analysis that nails the claim that the vaccine “killed one in 1,000 people”? Apologies if it is there and I have not yet found it.
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:30am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    You are right to be skeptical. krazykiwi, of course, assumes that his ‘analysis’ next week will confirm that claim of 10,000 deaths caused by the vaccine.
    
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    December 2, 2023 9:44am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      I was not expressing skepticism. I was simply stating that on a 5 minute read of the ‘slide pack’, I did not understand the argument.
      
      I will say that the claim in a comment down the thread is astounding, if true.
      
      “In just one particular vaccination centre in Invercargill, 51 people were vaccinated within the space of just two hours. All 51 are now dead.”
      
      The chances of this being a random event are zero. Unless all 51 had terminal illnesses and all were predicted to die within two years.
      
      I would also like to see the analysis and conclusions peer reviewed by a good statistician with no prior involvement in the ‘vaccine safety’ controversy – on either side of the argument.
      
      EDIT: Dismissing the analysis because it was posted by krazykiwi does not cut it. If you want to contribute to the debate, give us your take on the analysis. I promise I will pay close attention.
      
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      December 2, 2023 10:05am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        There is nothing to perform an ‘analysis’ on.
        
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        December 2, 2023 10:08am
      - Tom Hunter
        
        If you want to contribute to the debate, give us your take on the analysis.
        
        When are you and others going to learn this about “mikenmild”. He’s not interested in contributing to any debate on any issue here. He’s not interested in providing his own analysis. He feels that would be a waste of his time in a forum and amidst a crowd of people that he utterly despises.
        
        He’s here to entertain himself with as much single-sentence snark to stir things up as he can get away with before the mods pull him for trolling.
        
        He’s here to be entertained.
        
        Don’t entertain him.
        
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        December 2, 2023 10:19am
    - mandk
      
      Why does the idea of scrutiny upset you so much, mma?
      
      It’s almost as if you are afraid that disinterested analysis of the data will show that the vaxx caused far more harm than it prevented.
      
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      December 2, 2023 10:28am
    - Pineapple Lumps
      
      I am very keen to see krazykiwis analysis.
      
      It will certainly be a lot more interesting and factual than the approach you and Mcos are taking to the situation:
      
      – attack the person who released the data, when it is the Health Department who you should be attacking for not being open with the public and actively analysing and reporting on the data
      – attack krazykiwi because evil must wage war on good
      – attack Steve Kirsch, prophets have always been dismissed by the masses, usually to their peril
      – come up with diversions, distractions, and hypothetical strawmen, basically anything but the pursuit of truth
      
      What are you so scared of? That this will erode trust in the Marxist utopian delusion? Chip away at this all day guys, but the cat has been let out of the bag and most people will be keen to see what the data analysis shows. Bring it on krazy!
      
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      December 2, 2023 10:46am
  - Keith White
    
    Benedict, this summary + analysis is the easiest one to understand, that I have seen so far.
    
    https://brownstone.org/articles/new-zealand-government-data-suggests-alarming-pfizer-death-rate/
    
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    December 2, 2023 10:12am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      Thanks for that. Definitely a case to answer. The Ministry needs to refute the claims. I don’t mean “refude” Jacinda style either. The Ministry of Health has enormous resources. If the conclusions are flawed, they should be able to tear them to pieces.
      
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      December 2, 2023 10:42am
      - Jake Dee
        
        Incorrect.
        The health ministry doesn’t need to refute these claims it needs to EXAMINE these claims. You can’t call for a refutation first and you can’t deny that there is a least a possibility that the claims are accurate.
        It’s a classic error to begin an investigation with the conclusion you want to reach already fixed.
        
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        December 2, 2023 3:05pm
      - Benedict Yu
        
        REFUTE: “prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false.”
        
        You are splitting hairs. It is pretty obvious we are in agreement. 🙂
        
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        December 2, 2023 3:48pm
    - mawm
      
      The original interview of and data presentation by “Winston Smith” by Liz Gunn (I know but look at the data not the vehicle). – 1h 4min
      
      https://rumble.com/v3ynskd-operation-m.o.a.r-mother-of-all-revelations.html
      
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      December 2, 2023 11:38am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  When I saw this reported on TVNZ last night i predicted that someone on Kiwiblog would be proclaiming this crook as ‘heroic whistleblower’.
  Quelle surprise.
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:40am
- MCōs
  
  I’ve never heard of Steve Kirsch so I did a Google search.
  Plenty of stuff along these lines
  https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/critical-thinking/steve-kirsch-and-seduction-simplicity
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:42am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    How surprising; a Grade-A crank.
    
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    December 2, 2023 9:46am
    - Keith White
      
      Precisely what the bien-pensants of his day called Dr Ignaz Semmelweiss.
      
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      December 2, 2023 11:09am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Ah, the Galileo gambit:
        https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Galileo_gambit
        
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        December 2, 2023 12:11pm
      - Pineapple Lumps
        
        Mike, I’d say you’d have more experience than most in recognising Grade A cranks.
        
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        December 2, 2023 12:36pm
      - pdm
        
        Lumpy he only has to look in a mirror to see one.
        
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        December 2, 2023 4:21pm
  - Benedict Yu
    
    I am reluctant to dismiss information because a journalist calls someone a crank. Hence my suggestion that the analysis of the New Zealand data is peer reviewed by (preferably two) impartial statisticians who have had no involvement in debates about the safety of the COVID vaccines.
    
    26 2
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    December 2, 2023 10:10am
    - MCōs
      
      Isn’t there some sort of inquiry taking place that the government wants to expand?
      
      9 2
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      December 2, 2023 10:15am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        The nutters have some hope from this, but when it doesn’t support their theories, the inquiry members will be denounced as shills for big pharma, etc.
        
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        December 2, 2023 10:20am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Yeah, no statisticians are going to waste their time on a crank’s leak.
      Even if they did, they would be attacked by the anti-vax nutters as being part of the cover up.
      
      3 28
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      December 2, 2023 10:17am
      - bennerg
        
        MMA, you claim “a crank’s leak”
        
        This is no crank – he’s the guy that designed the system that collected the data.
        
        And while observing the result, could not sit by and see no-one saying anything about what was being recorded.
        
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        December 2, 2023 11:22am
      - kevn
        
        mma… Must something in the water at Petone. This line of has got you excited.
        
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        December 2, 2023 12:45pm
    - Wayne Mapp
      
      Did you actually link to the article?
      It is an article by a bunch of researchers at McGill University. Not just a journalist’s viewpoint.
      
      16 2
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      December 2, 2023 10:23am
    - mandk
      
      Dr David Lillis would be good.
      
      8 2
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      December 2, 2023 10:31am
- Keith White
  
  Mod: this link is to an easy-to-understand summary of the excess deaths in NZ caused by the mRNA vaccine that was mandated, coerced, and enforced.
  
  https://brownstone.org/articles/new-zealand-government-data-suggests-alarming-pfizer-death-rate/
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:44am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Someone has to ask so it may as well be me.
  How much of this was Ardern aware of? How much did she censor? Who was in on the game with her?
  We now know that she constantly lied and is not to be trusted. That such a person was in this position is unbelievable.
  
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  December 2, 2023 10:09am
  - MCōs
    
    I’m sure she received thousands of emails from all over the world from unqualified ‘experts’ pointing out how evil she was.
    
    5 11
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    December 2, 2023 10:19am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      But Ardern was of course an “expert” right?
      
      7 2
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      December 2, 2023 2:47pm
      - pdm
        
        Steve – self confessed expert only.
        
        Self praise is no praise at all.
        
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        December 2, 2023 4:23pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    S.O
    I believe adern was the front , the sales rep. An acceptable face to divert and con the gullible public.
    She is a dimwitted narcissistic puppet.
    She fronted the same playbook that was rolled out in the other countries run by her fellow low IQ marxists .
    That’s not by chance.
    That is conspiracy.
    NZ was taken over by a very small number of people in a very short period .
    We need protection for whistle blowers and jail time for her and her handlers and accomplices .
    
    23 2
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    December 2, 2023 10:33am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      More reasons for her to run.
      
      17 2
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      December 2, 2023 10:51am
      - bennerg
        
        More reason to petition the Governor General to rescind her Damehood.
        
        15 2
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        December 2, 2023 11:23am
      - pdm
        
        benne – that will not go anywhere.
        
        The GG is in with Ardern and co boots and all!!!
        
        6 2
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        December 2, 2023 4:25pm
    - mawm
      
      Imalwaysright – 100 upticks – “She is a dimwitted narcissistic puppet.”
      
      10 4
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      December 2, 2023 12:36pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Who pulls the strings of this ‘puppet?’
        
        7 2
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        December 2, 2023 2:48pm
      - mawm
        
        Steve – Through 5 Eyes the CIA/USDoD. After all they created both the virus and the vaccine, and we have all these “retired” CIA and US military working for our 5 Eyes set up.
        
        6 1
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        December 2, 2023 5:23pm
    - RichardX
      
      Do you have anything resembling evidence of this conspiracy or is it just an Otto level fallacious conclusion?
      
      1 2
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      December 2, 2023 7:24pm
      - goNZ1
        
        This blog is supposed to be a GENERAL debate, not be hijacked by anti vaxxites.
        BORING!
        
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        December 3, 2023 1:03am
  - mandk
    
    I’m not sure about Ardern.
    
    She’s of limited intellect, so she would easily be persuaded by interests that are divorced from those of the nation.
    
    How anyone with even half a brain could agree to the details of the contract with Pfizer being kept secret (for how long is it – 50 years?) beggars belief.
    
    18 2
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    December 2, 2023 10:36am
  - Pineapple Lumps
    
    We know she chose to ignore Medsafe when they couldn’t approve the Pfizer medical treatment.
    
    At that point a secret committee, who they refuse to disclose, overruled Medsafe and approved the treatment.
    
    Don’t you feel grateful that they were the most transparent government ever, as well as kind, declaring war on poverty ….
    
    17 2
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    December 2, 2023 10:54am
    - kevn
      
      Texas not happy…
      https://www.zerohedge.com/medical/texas-sues-pfizer-misrepresenting-covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-and-conspiring-censor-public
      
      14 2
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      December 2, 2023 12:50pm
- ecco
  
  OMG we are not getting into this discussion again. I don’t come onto kiwiblog to read this stuff. It’s been discussed ad finitum for several years. I’m going to have my 6th Covid vax shortly. Anyone not happy with the situation should go and see Winston Peters. He’s your man.
  
  Btw Plunket is one of the best things that has happened on the media landscape lately. He and Laws. I don’t agree with everything he says but he’s a breath of fresh air compared to the last 6 years of media censorship.
  
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  December 2, 2023 11:21am
  - Bridgenag
    
    Does anyone know why Tremain hasn’t posted any cartoons for awhile?
    
    6 2
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    December 2, 2023 12:55pm
  - Opie
    
    Well scroll on chief..
    
    You are free to put whatever you wish in your body, as I should be to mine.
    
    13 2
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    December 2, 2023 1:15pm
  - krazykiwi
    
    “I’m going to have my 6th Covid vax shortly”
    
    Then you are an idiot, and the smug assumption that because you’re not dead by the vax that everyone else should just move on is reprehensible.
    
    7 1
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    December 2, 2023 4:39pm
  - goNZ1
    
    Exactly my thoughts Ecco, I hope the Mods think so too?
    
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    December 3, 2023 1:05am
- krazykiwi
  
  The dataset I’d planned to analyze was taken down, but Igor Chudov (whom I’ve come to respect) got the data and ran pretty much all the data quality verification SQL queries that I had in mind. His analysis is here. He is skeptical, as am I after reading his post.
  
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  December 3, 2023 7:45am
SmokerGuy

I don’t like Winston Peters and I think his approach this week is completely counterproductive but he has a point. The media got given money on the condition they support the governments view of the treaty. I don’t think it is bribery in a way they weren’t allowed to attack the government but it is a form of bribery. It’s quite appalling that the 4th estate were so quick to accept money with strings attached. Isn’t their whole purpose to hold the government to account on ALL issues? They can’t seem to understand what they did was completely wrong.
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December 2, 2023 8:02am
- Vinicius
  
  I agree re Peters. I fervently hope he carries on poking the borax at the media but he needs make better choices when he does it. Not during official government events that can be a free chance for the Luxon led administration to get so positive publicity.
  
  I disagree with your last sentence. And would put it like this:
  ‘They know that what they did was wrong and don’t want to admit it.’
  
  It was revealing that on NewstalkZB both Hosking and HDPA both had a tepid reaction to this news story and went out of their way to play it down. I realise neither of their shows appeared to be getting money out of this but were they told by NZME (who owns NewstalkZB) to tone down the criticisms of the media?
  
  NZME got a $6,880,099.25 handout via the PIJF.
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:37am
  - mandk
    
    Is that why Hosking got so uppity when his listeners were telling him it was a bribe?
    
    16 2
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    December 2, 2023 10:38am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Really, because Hosking did his two minute blurb before 7.30 one morning, and he was extremely angry about the PJIF he said he would never ever have taken money for this either at TVNZ or radio NZ, he said media deserve everything they get
    
    8 3
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    December 2, 2023 11:16am
- Pineapple Lumps
  
  The PIJF is a cesspit and its intention was not innocent. The paying of money to support the nefarious ideological principles of a minority is only one aspect of the funding. Another, overlooked aspect was the money was to be used to recruit young and diverse journalists who also supported said nefarious principles. This in effect means that all new journalists and the articles that they produce are aligned to the Government. Curia should survey journalism graduates from the last 5 years of classes to gain an understanding of their political leanings. Then do the same survey on graduates that were employed by the PIJF. I will put money on it that the PIJF has created an environment that has excluded any right of centre journalists from paying jobs. Effectively creating a media that is even more unbalanced and totally biased towards and supportive of the leftist Government holding the purse strings.
  
  While this may not technically meet the definition for corruption it is clearly a corrupt and systemised way of structuring a dependent media in a political direction.
  
  If there is nothing wrong with this, then let’s only employ the following people for all media and public service jobs and provide places in Universities where people must subscribe to the following:
  – believe in the principal of democracy – one person, one vote
  – believe in the principal that all NZers are equal under the law
  – believe in the principle of meritocracy, those with the talent and drive will succeed
  
  Now make sure funding for media is tied to those principles. How would the current pack of journalists respond to that?
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:48am
  - Notsofast
    
    That is obviously correct. The ideology successfully introduced during that term was never revealed to the public by the media. How anyone could not see linkage is beyond credibility. We had the wholesale linguistic transition in this time, unexplained and unquestioned. Bribery is a euphemism, and I have a theory Mr Luxon always wanted Winston in government, to be John Tamihere’s “Uncle Tom on steroids”.
    
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    December 2, 2023 10:24am
- Bullion
  
  Nzme,according to the taxpayers union, were the biggest receivers of pijf. So Thomas Cranmer, Hosking, HDPA etc. Are all biased and definitely have strong views in supporting he paupa, 3 Waters and other treaty issues.
  
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  December 2, 2023 3:13pm
Vinicius

Ananish Chaudhuri has an opinion piece over at Bassett, Brash and Hide criticising the media.

His conclusions:

“Methinks the media doth protest too much. Their outrage stems from the fact that deep inside they know that there is a kernel of truth in Peters’ allegations; that whatever the reason, the media’s independence and integrity took a hit during the Ardern years. Peters’ reservations are shared widely and the media leaders disregard this dissatisfaction at their own peril.”

Chaudhuri also is very critical of the Ardern government paying TVNZ and Stuff for advertisements that featured content with hand picked experts on such as climate change.

The media have been caught red handed and willingly fell for the Ardern government’s influence peddling scheme.

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/ananish-chaudhuri-winston-peters-has-a-point-about-media-bias
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December 2, 2023 8:06am
- imalwaysright
  
  Good point .
  If you accuse someone of something and they immediately launch into a hysterical defense then its a good bet they did it.
  
  They aren’t very bright.
  
  32 2
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  December 2, 2023 9:30am
- Pineapple Lumps
  
  I like Chaudhuri. He has tried to challenge the handling of the pandemic. He believes that management led by microbiologists/virologists/public health experts based on the lens of saving lives from a singularity is flawed. The costs in so many other ways have not been worth the benefits obtained.
  
  In simpler words, the vulnerable should have isolated, the non-vulnerable should have got on with their lives, if you were sick then stay home and definitely away from the vulnerable. If we had done this NZ would be a far more prosperous country today!!!
  
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  December 2, 2023 10:25am
G152

Wont happen.
The media has been bought and retains its biases.
Commentator and communist are very close both in the dictionary and media…….
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December 2, 2023 8:10am
Cassandra

A 501 who beat an older man half to death because he’d give him only one cigarette has been sentenced to 15 years in prison. That’s what we should be reading – he actually got community service. Apparently the 501 attended a rehab course. I despair.
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December 2, 2023 8:15am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  It pays to get a job before sentencing occurs.
  
  The judge said home detention would impact Arena’s employment and “for that reason, and that reason alone” he imposed the community-based sentence.
  
  On a charge of wounding with intent to injure, Arena was sentenced to six months of community detention coupled with nine months of intensive supervision.
  
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/503713/501-deportee-sentenced-for-attack-on-wellington-juggling-icon-who-later-died-in-loafers-lodge-fire
  
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  December 2, 2023 10:06am
  - kowtow
    
    I wonder if the judge has the capacity to call the thug up on a 6 monthly basis , to ensure he’s still ‘working’ and if not then send the prick to prison where he belongs , for the sake of the safety of society .
    
    Odd how the regime is so gung ho and safety obsessed when it comest to emplyers and their duties but whenit comes to the courts our safety , well not so much.
    
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    December 2, 2023 10:15am
Opie

Shout out to Steve Otto.

You made a comment a while ago that if you grind your welds you are a grinder not a welder.

I think of this everytime I weld now and am welding so much better! Makes me stop and think a bit before I do it to make sure it’s going to be good. My new welder has helped a lot too.

Best bit is great looking welds with no wasted time cleaning up the grinding!
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December 2, 2023 8:16am
- Keith White
  
  I have the same opinion when some people add steristrips after suturing a wound. Get the sutures right and steristrips are neither needed nor helpful.
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:46am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Strips and superglue for closing after cubital tunnel surgery for me.
    Professional job done.
    
    7 2
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    December 2, 2023 10:27am
    - Keith White
      
      Glue can be very good for sealing very clean and superficial wounds that do not require under-skin pulling-together.
      
      But over years I’ve had to incise and drain quite a few others’-glued-wounds where pus was collecting under the glue-seal. Choose the wound carefully IMO. YMMV.
      
      Advice on the internet is worth what you paid for it 🙂
      
      13 1
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      December 2, 2023 10:39am
      - Opie
        
        Keith – Somehow I feel like your advice might be worth quite a bit!
        
        3 1
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        December 2, 2023 1:29pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Superglue was originally developed for medical use.
        NASA?
        
        1 2
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        December 2, 2023 2:59pm
- kevn
  
  Opie… An after school/weekend job I had was to grind the welds flush, from about 1 meter diameter spiral machine welded pipe mounted on big rollers. Endless and dirty work.
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:53am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Those who do grind welds are doing it to make the weld presentable. So welds I have seen may as well have been put on with a shovel.
  When you do a test plate and it passes the x-ray and stress tests, you are getting somewhere.
  Mind you we had good machines. WIA and Helvi made in Italy. $3K to $7K. Can’t really lay a good bead with those tinpot Bunnings welders costing $400.
  Modern welding is MIG and TIG. I come from the old school of stick electrodes. 4mm high frequency and high tensile overhead with 170 amps pumping through.
  Thanks for the compliment.
  
  11 0
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  December 2, 2023 10:26am
  - Pineapple Lumps
    
    Steve – have you seen the next generation of welders – Laser welders? A new technology that will significantly reduce the welding time, and visually a much finer weld. I understand currently the cost of one is 10x your WIA and Helvi machines.
    
    9 0
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    December 2, 2023 11:00am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      I know of them but have never used one.
      As I mentioned ‘old school’ Brazing, and not just a sweat joint. I can make the bronze weld look like a normal fillet weld. Even silver soldering jewelry.
      
      9 0
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      December 2, 2023 11:49am
    - imalwaysright
      
      The biggest drawback with laser welding is the prep. Needs a very close fit.
      
      6 0
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      December 2, 2023 1:14pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Same with TIG. TIG is ‘clean’ welding, unless you want a shit result.
        
        5 0
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        December 2, 2023 3:02pm
  - Opie
    
    Pleasure, nothing like the skill of a talented welder.
    
    We had one welder come on site and weld up a section of an excavator undercarriage where the slew bearing mounts. He arc welded it and it looked like someone had laid it out of a silicon gun. Amazing.
    
    I imagine your welds look the same.
    
    Moved up to a decent 200amp mig just for home use, loads of duty cycle. You get what you pay for
    
    9 0
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    December 2, 2023 11:05am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Funniest was MacGyver welding two halves of a con rod with some jump leads a car battery and a US quarter as an electrode!
      
      5 0
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      December 2, 2023 2:45pm
gravedodger

Tom Hunter has a related post at No Minister worth a visit.
On the same matter a funeral yesterday for a 40 something male who had cardiac issues during an emergency tonsillectomy, last week a similar aged male spray contractor unexpected death in Hawkes Bay.
The numbers mount, roll on with that inquiry people.
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December 2, 2023 8:17am
slightlyrighty

In 2022, Parliament had it’s last sitting day on 14 December, and did not sit again until 14 FEBRUARY!

Luxon, mindful of the challenges he is facing, Parliament is likely to work through until 22 December and get back to work on 15 January!

So pleased to see politicians working like the rest of us have to.
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December 2, 2023 8:21am
- septic skeptic
  
  The press gallery will be pretty pissed about that!
  
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  December 2, 2023 10:08am
  - Beach Haven expat
    
    The child Walls was grizzling to HDPA a few weeks back about this and the effect on the press gallery.
    
    Will no one think of the press gallery?
    
    4 0
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    December 2, 2023 6:01pm
- MCōs
  
  By that logic they should start at 8am five days a week
  The select committees and constituents can look after themselves
  BTW
  I expect with this new regime Mr Brownlee will knock the speakers tours on the head.
  
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  December 2, 2023 10:10am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Your expectations will not be met.
    
    5 19
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    December 2, 2023 10:24am
- Inandout
  
  slight, it will be interesting to see if Mike Hosking continues with his 2 month break at Christmas. Big changes ahead in NZME.
  
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  December 2, 2023 10:31am
  - pdm
    
    Apparently Mike is picking up the hour that Kate was doing 5am – 6am early next year. Until they get a replacement.
    
    2 0
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    December 2, 2023 4:32pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Many Labour MPs will be chucking it, Robertson Jackson, O’Connor and maybe Parker will have been waiting for the long break and the salary before chucking it in early next year, this may well push them over and see them go sooner
  
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  December 2, 2023 11:20am
  - septic skeptic
    
    Maybe some of these troughers still need the money.
    
    8 1
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    December 2, 2023 12:02pm
ecco

$$tuffed conspicuously absent of any articles about the Tory Whanau saga today. So biased! We all know that.

The slant on any articles that do appear in the MSM are about poor old Tory and how bad it is for her that she has a drinking problem. And that we should feel sorry for her. Forget about the fact that she is supposed to be running Wellington as well.

Whanau states in her press release that she can still contribute in a meaningful way, even though she’s sick with an addictive disorder. If I were in Wellington I would not be wanting a ‘meaningful’ contribution from the mayor, I’d be expecting 110% effort and fronting up in person for all meetings. NOT appearing by Zoom.

I’m just wondering if she is staying home half the time instead of going to work, so she can babysit her dog.

It’s disappointing that another Wahine Toa has been voted in (by largely millenial girlies in Wellington) and given a chance to shine but sadly is not up to the task. Just looks like Kiri Allan mark 2, all over again.
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December 2, 2023 8:28am
- greybeard
  
  1. Driving a car
  In New Zealand, the alcohol limit for drivers aged 20 years and over is 250 micrograms (mcg) of alcohol per litre of breath and the blood alcohol limit is 50 milligrams (mg) per 100 millilitres (ml) of blood. If you are under 20, the alcohol limit for drivers is zero.
  
  2. Running a Capital City
  What is the alcohol limit in NZ for leading a capital city ?
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:38am
  - goNZ1
    
    Well it depends on political leaning,race,gender,Treaty promotion etc so can’t give you a straight answer sorry. That the current Welly mayor is still in her job may assist you with your questions
    
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    December 3, 2023 1:16am
- SoloView
  
  @ ecco
  We know that Tory has a drinking problem.
  We know of 2 possible events at bars
  We know she was a Lotto winner
  We know that many people and some councilors think she should resign.
  We know she bought her dog to work when the lease didn’t allow for animals.
  We know she’s a Maori woman.
  We know she has been absent from meetings and occasions that she should have been at.
  We know she has had Covid recently.
  We know that she has used Zoom sometimes for meetings
  We know that she was a Green party chief of staff.
  
  We know all of the above was reported by Stuff.
  
  Today’s Stuff comment at 0500hrs
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/wellington/133384538/wellington-councillors-speak-on-what-the-future-could-be-for-mayor-tory-whanau
  
  I think they cover it enough.
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:58am
  - Inandout
    
    SV, ‘moreena Wade Brown’ was the introduction and I looked at that woman and thought is that what stress does to you?
    
    8 1
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    December 2, 2023 10:39am
  - KH
    
    Do we really know she had Covid? Question. She just said that.
    It could have been actual Covid, or that Covid you catch from Chardonnay.
    
    15 1
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    December 2, 2023 11:39am
    - cmm
      
      Of course it is possible, but it seems awfully convenient timing.
      Less than 1% chance of this just happening randomly.
      
      4 0
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      December 2, 2023 4:38pm
    - Beach Haven expat
      
      I thought I read she was back at work the following day?
      
      And it was her fourth dose?
      
      If true, seems remarkable.
      
      3 0
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      December 2, 2023 6:06pm
  - pdm
    
    Solo – apparently she also puts herself about.
    
    Has anyone seen the alleged video which I saw somewhere this morning referred to as a `sex video’?
    
    7 0
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    December 2, 2023 4:36pm
    - jedmo
      
      AFAIK she’s released no further statements after that single “poor me self pity ” one. No denials or clarifications. And why should she when since then the media by omission and soft soap articles, have run all the interference for her that she could possibly have wished for. They’re a cess pit.
      
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      December 2, 2023 5:20pm
    - Beach Haven expat
      
      I’ve yet to see anyone credibly say they’ve seen it, which does undermine the whole lewd act claims.
      
      If the bloke or his mates are loose lipped enough to tell people xxx happened and they videoed it, someone would have posted it by now. They would have shared it in a WhatsApp group and it only takes one tap to them get in the wild.
      
      Not that I’m doubting she’s an unsuitable train wreck who could be a supporting character in a long-running Viz comic about two big boned lasses with loose morals. Just wondering how much as been embellished by those who like to claim they’re in the know.
      
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      December 2, 2023 6:11pm
- rouppe
  
  All you gotta do is go to the menu and choose Regional->Wellington news, and the first two or three are all about Whanau
  
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  December 2, 2023 10:34am
- surfing
  
  Anyone really believe her claim that she has covid?
  
  This is the issue — how she be trusted given her issues?
  
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  December 2, 2023 1:08pm
  - Ghost
    
    She has corona not COVID, a box of it she found in the cupboard, back to work when she’s drunk it all.
    
    10 1
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    December 2, 2023 1:20pm
bjools

I see the cease fire is over..
HAMAS killing people at bus stops in Jerusalem and now more early morning rocket attacks.
Are they running out of living hostages to exchange?
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December 2, 2023 8:30am
- Che Guava
  
  Given that the Israeli’s oft stated goal was to wipe out Hamas, they are obviously failing to do so. They’ve killed tens of thousands of Gazans in the last couple of months, yet Hamas seem largely unaffected.
  
  Maybe taking out Hamas wasn’t really the goal, and the intention was always to just completely destroy Gaza and drive the population out with no hope of ever returning? Ethnic cleansing, by another name.
  
  Even if they’ve managed to somehow kill lots of Hamas among the indiscriminate bombing, it’s almost as if by their actions they are just vindicating Palestinian opinions of Jews while creating more willing combatants to fight against Israel.
  
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  December 2, 2023 10:20am
  - Notsofast
    
    Despite being on a Christian channel, which would normally be a red flag, this guy explains you might be wrong. Son of the Hamas inventor.
    
    https://youtu.be/wpnvUIcvNUE?si=PUcc4-yWcP7F3XMt
    
    Che, I am a complete non expert, so if you listen to this guy, please explain how he must be wrong. I am genuinely interested.
    
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    December 2, 2023 10:33am
    - Che Guava
      
      Can’t you just explain why I might be wrong? Which of the statements I made is incorrect, and why?
      
      1 6
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      December 2, 2023 10:50am
      - Notsofast
        
        I post links for a reason. Not willy nilly, the guy here explains precisely why you might be wrong, and it is only 15 minutes.
        He was imprisoned with Hamas, and explains that the prime reason for Israeli success is the bleeding obvious, compulsory education for all.
        
        7 2
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        December 2, 2023 11:52am
      - Che Guava
        
        So your opinion and argument is just that guy’s opinion and argument? OK.
        
        2 4
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        December 2, 2023 12:24pm
  - Matt Long
    
    Al Jazeera, the only true media, or is Che the only true exponent of truth?Sometimes it’s hard to tell.
    I still can’t understand why Israel kills only civilians, you’d think they’d find at least some people with the Hamas uniform on.
    
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    December 2, 2023 10:47am
    - Che Guava
      
      I don’t consume any media, really, be it “Jewish” or “Arab.” I’d rather read about the history of the region to fully understand the conflict, than listen to the commentary of the combatants, or commentary aligned therewith. Some commenters seem to think this started on 7 October 2023.
      
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      December 2, 2023 10:53am
      - Beach Haven expat
        
        You don’t consume any media but are sufficiently well informed to pass comment on what is going on in the ground in Gaza, presumably while not being there?
        
        Right…
        
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        December 2, 2023 6:17pm
  - Individual Responsibility
    
    If IDF has “…killed tens of thousands of Gazans in the last couple of months, yet Hamas seem largely unaffected.” doesn’t that suggest that either the figure of 10,000 is, at best, dodgy, or that Hamas, and/or Palestinians, are very slow learners?
    
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    December 2, 2023 5:05pm
  - goNZ1
    
    Possibly it may be that the Israelis are a bit upset about 1200 of their people being murdered by Hamas in one day? Funny that
    
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    December 3, 2023 1:22am
dcrane

Fwiw, this twitter account (Igor Chudov) has been querying the database and says that it is surprisingly incomplete. Not sure what the implications are, if true.

https://twitter.com/ichudov/status/1730628286009483722
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December 2, 2023 8:31am
- mawm
  
  His latest ‘X’ edit of your link does not say that.
  
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  December 2, 2023 12:52pm
  - dcrane
    
    Here is what the latest post in the thread says:
    “This is NOT the last update, but my initial conclusion from this data is
    
    – The data is very partial and incomplete. Difficult to make vaccine inferences from it.
    
    – I cannot fathom a bona fide “whistleblowing” process that would lead to such missing data.”
    
    https://twitter.com/ichudov/status/1730734640749564154
    
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    December 2, 2023 1:21pm
    - mawm
      
      Thanks. I don’t do Twitter and when I downloaded the link it gave me only 1 post. Your’s is much more recent.
      
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      December 2, 2023 2:54pm
      - dcrane
        
        Sorry about that. Yes I have found lately that links I send with videos, for example, no longer play for people who are not logged in.
        
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        December 2, 2023 5:01pm
Chuck Bird

Winston has a point.

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/ananish-chaudhuri-winston-peters-has-a-point-about-media-bias?postId=3ecd2fd8-d421-4c14-b5a2-e66a175e4cf0&utm_campaign=2847b58c-17dd-4ba8-b256-c6f03939f691&utm_source=so&utm_medium=mail&utm_content=35982824-b041-4e54-9119-1a7f0cea81e0&cid=5ad2ad14-ab55-4e15-92b1-7b9538cabd9b
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December 2, 2023 8:32am
- Benedict Yu
  
  “Methinks the media doth protest too much. Their outrage stems from the fact that deep inside they know that there is a kernel of truth in Peters’ allegations; that whatever the reason, the media’s independence and integrity took a hit during the Ardern years.”
  
  Well put.
  
  If Winston had just made some crazy claim, it would have been largely ignored. Because, let’s face it, he has said many odd things over the years. But no, this time the media goes into meltdown.
  
  The author also nails it with this.
  
  “While “bribery” may be too strong, the evidence does suggest unusual symbiosis between the Labour Government and the mainstream media. Many in the media came to think of Labour Party policies as “their” policy, ones they felt compelled to defend.”
  
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  December 2, 2023 8:40am
  - Dave
    
    While “bribery” may be too strong…
    
    So, perhaps we can model our response on the revered words of the revered Justice Cooke and say, ‘The PIJF is akin to bribery.’
    
    25 2
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    December 2, 2023 9:00am
    - Keith White
      
      “It was an orchestrated bundling of bribes.”
      
      24 2
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      December 2, 2023 9:47am
    - ISeeRed
      
      The PIJF follows the principles of bribery?
      
      5 2
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      December 2, 2023 2:50pm
  - mogg
    
    During the Ardern years it was painfully obvious that
    MSM were the spin team for her Labour government. When a government is paying media companies tax payer money to report on the news,
    and setting guidelines as to what they can or can not say, that money is a bribe.
    
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    December 2, 2023 9:53am
    - rouppe
      
      With Willie Jackson acting as Jacinda Ardern’s Goebbles.
      
      20 1
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      December 2, 2023 10:31am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Adern, Goebbels , Willie
        
        You could be right.
        
        4 2
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        December 2, 2023 2:56pm
- Suze Wainwright
  
  Why do Audrey Young, Jack Tame and all the rest seem to be writing with such self reassuring language about how much trouble they perceive the new government to be in already?
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:11am
  - newview
    
    SW I believe so called journalists are these days just opinion writers. If they lean one way or another politically it often shows in the bias of their writing.
    Their facts (the new government is in trouble) is their opinion embellished to sell the story. In days gone by journalists would give both sides of a story and let the reader decide. Not any more. We as the readers are no better. We tend to believe what we want to believe and that is affected by our political preferences.
    
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    December 2, 2023 9:46am
  - Che Guava
    
    Because they oppose the government. It beats me why anyone would expect them to behave in any other way. Because politics is essentially about division and the distinction between “my friend” and “my enemy,” I can’t imagine why anyone would expect them to give their enemy an easy run.
    
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    December 2, 2023 9:49am
  - Biscuit
    
    Suze, can you imagine the conference call those journalists must have each week.
    
    Jack: What you gonna write about, Audrey?
    
    Audrey: Oh, I thought I’d have a whinge at the new Government.
    
    Maiki: Ooo, me too!
    
    Katie: Me three!
    
    Jack: Brilliant! And here I was at a complete loose end as to what I should write about!
    
    Tova: John Campbell told me earlier he was having a brain fart too. Jess and I are having lunch with him later. We’ll pass on your idea to him. We’d best stand aside from him though: he’ll likely wave his hands so excitedly that low-flying aircraft will be imperilled!
    
    Jack: The things we do for our public, eh?
    
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    December 2, 2023 10:18am
    - pdm
      
      Bloody hell Biscuit.
      
      Under no circumstances should you of all people be encourging those lefty fools.
      
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      December 2, 2023 4:40pm
  - goNZ1
    
    Yes,like Audrey saying Luxons govt is off to a ragged start in the first Week!!
    The only ones having a ragged week were the MSM being called out by Winnie, and Chippy laughing cynically as he attempted to recycle his surviving MPs!
    
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    December 3, 2023 1:31am
- Che Guava
  
  Imagine being surprised to learn the media are biased. Did you come down in the last shower? Technological means aside, “the media” is people. All people have bias. All of the people who own media entities have bias. All the biased people who own media entities want you to share their bias. However, they don’t want you to understand that what you believe about the world is a biased representation of reality, they want you to think your beliefs are an objective representation of reality, aka The Truth.
  
  Public or private (often a distinction without any real difference) – it doesn’t really matter. The source of the funding is less important than understanding the identity and the agenda of those providing the funding, and deciding what ideas and opinions are and are not “correct”or “acceptable.”
  
  This is why it’s so crucial to know who runs the media (including popular entertainment). Because only a tiny fraction of our worldviews are the result of direct sense perception, that’s where most of your ideas about the world come from, so you need to fully understand who’s telling you what and why they are telling it to you. This has been the case since the Gutenberg press and even since the advent of writing, and even of narrative-telling in general.
  
  The implicit, or explicit, wish to “end media bias” demonstrates a poor understanding of what the media is and the role it plays.
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:24am
- Rusty
  
  @Chuck Bird
  
  Of course the msm were bribed. There were some exceptions but the majority towed the Labour line on the covid response, climate change, 3 waters, and Maori co-governance.
  
  2 years ago Ardern shut down Auckland over ONE covid case.
  
  Can you believe that? Where was the media back then questioning her decision?
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:28am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    toed the line
    
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    December 2, 2023 9:51am
    - Matt Long
      
      In the case of the leftists in New Zealand media, towed the line is more correct.
      The effort put in to push ” progressivism” by sectors of the media like Stuff is more than acquiescence, it’s deliberate propaganda campaigning.
      
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      December 2, 2023 10:14am
      - kowtow
        
        In the case of the Ardern regime it wasn’t a line drawn on the ground , it was a noose around our necks .
        
        13 3
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        December 2, 2023 10:28am
    - Rusty
      
      milk..
      
      correct my mistake
      
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      December 2, 2023 4:35pm
kevn

kk… Indeed, Sean Plunket seems to have painted himself into a covid corner. Backing out from his stance now, would take a big effort. Let’s see if he has the guts.
The story just won’t go away but is actually building.
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December 2, 2023 8:34am
- krazykiwi
  
  A question for Plunket: “Can you confirm that no funding for, or related to The Platform comes with editorial conditions concerning Covid-19 vaccination. A simple yes or no will do. A f*ck off will also adequately answer the question”
  
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  December 2, 2023 8:42am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    IIRC he claims that the platform receives no government funding.
    
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    December 2, 2023 9:06am
    - krazykiwi
      
      Sure. What about commercial interest with editorial constraints?
      
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      December 2, 2023 9:11am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Any media source that disagrees with krazykiwi’s covid theories must be bribed by someone, or just plain evil in their own right.
        
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        December 2, 2023 9:54am
      - Vinicius
        
        I haven’t researched or done a deep dive into what NZ On Air gets up to but it seems to me there is a very strong case for there to be much more transparency about the public funding of media.
        
        Also, I wonder if it will ever be fully understood how far the Ardern government went to influence news and editorial content in some media.
        
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        December 2, 2023 9:57am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Krazy didn’t say government funding , he said funding .
      
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      December 2, 2023 9:44am
    - rouppe
      
      Cameron Slater was a big deal, until it became known he took money to do hit jobs on people.
      
      A bunch of people still hang on his word, but he’s got no credibility with me anymore.
      
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      December 2, 2023 10:28am
Chuck Bird

An example of paid for climate change BS.

https://dailytelegraph.co.nz/news/msm-climate-change-content-was-government-paid-propaganda/
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December 2, 2023 8:44am
artemisia

When does a gift or a policy become an inalienable ‘right’?

Professor Margaret Mutu offers a list of certain rights that may be removed. Including some that have been in place about 5 minutes.

The lord giveth and the lord taketh away.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2312/S00011/coalition-agreements-between-national-act-and-nz-first-signal-the-need-to-protect-all-whanau-maori-from-racist-attacks.htm
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December 2, 2023 9:08am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Holy Moly..
  
  Is this really the level of discourse that an Auckland University Professor has descended to?
  
  1. Professor Mutu seems to be confused about the meaning of the word remove.
  
  This Nat-coalition government is NOT removing :
  Māori involvement in the governance of natural resources, Māori language in government departments, the right of Māori children to be kept in their own whānau, government services being delivered to Māori, Smokefree New Zealand, etc
  
  2. David Seymour did NOT campaign on abolishing the treaty,
  
  3. This Nat-Coalition Government has NOT issued
  threats against Māori,
  
  https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2312/S00011/coalition-agreements-between-national-act-and-nz-first-signal-the-need-to-protect-all-whanau-maori-from-racist-attacks.htm
  
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  December 2, 2023 10:27am
  - pdm
    
    Maggy – activists like Mutu will always do what activists think they must do!!
    
    If they think at all of course.
    
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    December 2, 2023 4:43pm
Matt Long

UNRWA not only trains Palestinians to be terrorists but its employees are actively engaged in terror, including holding hostages taken during the seven eleven atrocities.
Another hostage allegedly held by Gaza children’s doctor.
https://m.jpost.com/middle-east/article-775777
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December 2, 2023 9:21am
- Che Guava
  
  The Palestinians and the Israelis both use violence to attain political ends. The Palestinians and the Israelis both hold political prisoners for political ends. The main distinction is that Israel does more of both, given that it is the more materially powerful of the two combatants. These are objective facts. We can characterise and distinguish the two sides by applying different labels to what they are each doing based on our perspectives and dispositions, but victims of political violence are just that, and political captives are just that.
  
  What isn’t objective is pretty much any commentary on the conflict in Palestine. See my comment above about the inherent bias of all media: of course the Jerusalem Post is going to have a certain angle on the the conflict, because it has clear bias and is not a disinterested observer.
  
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  December 2, 2023 9:38am
  - Matt Long
    
    Is your point that UNRWA is engaged purely in humanitarian work? That would require some imagination.
    
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    December 2, 2023 10:52am
- kowtow
  
  Today’s NZME Herald article form AP implies the Israelis were the ones to resume the fighting thereby ending the pause .
  
  In fact Hamas was meant to be providing another list of abductee/hostages next to be released but with only one hour to go to the next deadline , instead of releasing a list , they released a huge rocket barrage at Israel . Israel waited till the deadline to resume their justice driven campaign against the brutal terrorist regime in Gaza.
  
  None of this was included in the NZME account. How hard would it be to include just a few more facts to give a fair and factual account of the “news”.
  
  Of course what we’re presented with across the board by our “news” is almost pure propaganda , as it is not designed to inform , but in fact to elicit an emotional response, be it fear , anger , anxiety or submission.
  
  As with their coverage of Israel , it is the same with covid , climate , race , gender , class , etc
  
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  December 2, 2023 10:24am
  - Che Guava
    
    “….our “news” is almost pure propaganda , as it is not designed to inform , but in fact to elicit an emotional response, be it fear , anger , anxiety or submission.”
    
    I tend to agree. But this is no different than pro-Israel propaganda, which is always emotive, designed to elicit sympathy (inevitable but incredible comparisons to the holocaust), create anxiety, anger and fear vis a vis, in your words, “the brutal terrorist regime in Gaza” (perhaps even lying in wait in the West? So back Israel!).
    
    No serious analyses of Israel’s actions are encouraged, because serious and sober analysis tends to undermine the emotive foundation on which Israel’s position is built (and besides, anything less than unquestioned acceptance is probably an a priori sign of anti-semitism and even perhaps a latent desire for holocaust 2.0)
    
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    December 2, 2023 10:41am
    - imalwaysright
      
      I asked Lushington Brady if it was ok to criticise the Israeli government .
      He/she unilaterally concluded that to do so would be anti semitic.
      
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      December 2, 2023 3:26pm
    - Individual Responsibility
      
      You must be real fun at a party.
      
      Are you Milkenmild in drag?
      
      5 1
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      December 2, 2023 5:20pm
Cassandra

There’s an interesting article on Newsroom by Margaret Mutu – her interesting take on the ToW etc. most readers will dismiss it as the ravings of a nutter but don’t do that. It’s worth a read. Know your enemy. If enough Maori and Wellington “elites” agree with her then we’re in for interesting times. Makes Act’s principles – actually the real ToW meaning – vital.
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December 2, 2023 9:28am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Stop Co-Governance. Julian Batchelor.

https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/more-proof-the-maori-party-are-living-in-a-bubble-of-treaty-ignorance/

” a chocolate tattoo faced peacock!” Great!
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December 2, 2023 9:39am
I remember when

No I don’t smoke and haven’t since my early twenties.
My decision to quit was helped by hearing my father, who had an early morning start, ‘coughing his lungs out’ every working day.
However, was the problem the number of cigarettes a day rather than smoking.
Our ancestors grew up surrounding fires used for heat and protection.
They were often in caves or man-made constructions.
Is it just a coincidence that as smoking numbers have dropped other health ‘epidemics’ have replaced them.
Examples:
The obesity problem was largely unknown before smoking rates started plummeting.
Our asthma epidemic, a respiratory disease, has grown rapidly.
While lung, throat and mouth cancers rates may have reduced considerably, other cancers seem to be more common.
Has reducing smoking been a cause of the seeming ‘epidemic’ of mental health issues?
Have the benefits of not smoking been exaggerated and possible smoking benefits been overlooked?
Improvements in medical treatment of heart conditions, among others, have to be factored into the equation.
My memory was that the longevity of our lifespan was increasing even as smoking rates peaked.
Is it too easy to accept the ‘official’ response without fully considering other possibilities?
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December 2, 2023 10:19am
- Benedict Yu
  
  I just don’t think it is plausible that declining smoking has caused obesity. Compared to 40 years ago, people are consuming on average about 20 percent more calories. there is heaps of American data and the trends in New Zealand are almost certainly similiar.
  
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  December 2, 2023 11:02am
  - I remember when
    
    I remember a number of women, in particular, continuing to smoke because when they stopped they rapidly gained weight.
    Eating was used as a means to overcome the pangs of the need for a cigarette.
    Smoking is has a sensory component, being a feeling of pleasure, as has eating.
    Once weight is gained it is difficult to remove it.
    The reason for the diet industry.
    
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    December 2, 2023 11:39am
    - I remember when
      
      Also, especially in the earlier days, women were largely responsible for the cooking and meals in the home.
      When they ate more it probably affected the meal sizes of the rest of the family.
      The additional costs were covered by the money saved by not smoking.
      
      5 2
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      December 2, 2023 12:15pm
- Gussy Fink-Nottle
  
  Remember, you may have a point.
  Smoking supresses the appetite.
  On giving up smoking, you are inclined to gain weight.
  Like prayer, smoking ‘settles the nerves’ (or simply satisfies an artificial craving).
  Banning smoking on flights has almost certainly led to an increase in ‘air rage’ (I’m happy enough with that trade-off though).
  I don’t mind people smoking, and I don’t mind fat people (much).
  Seeing a fat person smoke makes me quite sad.
  
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  December 2, 2023 12:51pm
- MCōs
  
  Life expectancy in NZ has improved from around 70yrs in 1950 to 82yrs now
  All my siblings and I have already lived longer than our grandparents.
  Advances in medicine, awareness of diet, fitness mean the causes of death are changing.
  
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  December 2, 2023 1:30pm
- goNZ1
  
  Also given the Japanese are heavy smokers,how is it their females have one of the highest longevity in the globe?
  
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  December 3, 2023 1:40am
rouppe

Ian Taylor “already regrets voting National”

He explains it by spending most of the article criticising Winston Peters. Ummm. Hey Ian, he’s leader of NZ First.

I’m not sure what he thought would happen if Labour had got up, but sometimes smart guys can be a bit blind.

He then goes on about the repeal of the smoking legislation.

Prostitution was illegal in NZ once. Didn’t stop prostitution.
Alcohol was illegal in the USA by way of an act of Congress. Didn’t stop drinking.
JFK put an embargo on Cuban products once. Just before doing that he imported a few thousand Cuban cigars.

As if prohibition has worked. Ever. Anywhere.

Ah well….
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December 2, 2023 10:20am
- Cassandra
  
  I bet he voted for MMP too. Note he gives a boost to every lefty meme in his column. It wasn’t a bribe, RNZ is totally neutral, Maori are indigenous, ergo they have special rights n Aotearoa I suppose. Black is white. A very strange man.
  
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  December 2, 2023 10:41am
  - goNZ1
    
    He’s an outlier,I mean seriously how many senior business leaders or owners would say the previous govt was great!
    
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    December 3, 2023 1:44am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  King Country was a dry area for a while. Don’t know when.
  What I do know is dinghies were used to ferry grog across the Waikato River.
  
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  December 2, 2023 10:47am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Parts of Auckland are still dry, no bars and supermarkets not allowed to sell booze, I couldn’t work out in the west why PAC & save had two supermarkets quite close together, until we went to get some beers and the first one was unable to sell and the second could
    
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    December 2, 2023 11:27am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      The licensing trusts should have been abolished decades ago. A weird hangover (pardon the pun) from the days of electorate voting on alcohol.
      
      16 2
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      December 2, 2023 11:50am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        Agreed
        
        7 1
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        December 2, 2023 12:12pm
      - Jack5
        
        The licensing trusts of Gore and Invercargill have provided their citizens with swimming pools, skating rinks, and they subsidised the local Polytechnic to provide fees-free incentive to bring students to the region.
        
        I don’t think the locals would vote out the various trusts of the far south.
        
        Some further north were too small, and outlived their time.
        
        There were some interesting anomalies in Invercargill during the 30 or 40 years of prohibition before a citizens’ committee succeeded in getting the Government to set up the country’s first booze trust, basing it on a scheme in Carlisle, UK, during World War 1.
        
        The Carlisle scheme entailed State ownership of pubs. This began when outsiders were among the 20,000 people who thronged the area during World War 1, to work at munition plants. The last of State ownership in the region ended in the early 1970s.
        
        Anomalies during Invercargill’s prohibition included being able fairly easily to buy a barrel of beer from the brewery within the city, but being unable to buy a glass of the drink in a bar or restaurant.
        
        6 1
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        December 2, 2023 12:30pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Help me, help me, I just upticked Mike!!!
        
        2 0
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        December 2, 2023 3:43pm
      - Jethrod
        
        Steve Otto is going to HHHEEELLLLLL!!!
        
        0 0
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        December 2, 2023 6:55pm
  - alwyn.a
    
    The Eastern suburbs of Wellington were dry right through until about 1980 if I am remembering it correctly.
    That was Miramar, Seatoun, Rongotai and Kilbirnie. It’s what is now Julie-Anne Genter’s electorate. Clearly the residents of the area remain as odd as they ever were.
    
    8 0
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    December 2, 2023 3:51pm
- Che Guava
  
  Murder is prohibited, but people still do it. Should we just legalise murder?
  
  One of the functions of the law is to demarcate what behaviour society considers acceptable. Below the level of black letter law is social norms and standards. But anything that is legal is, by definition, considered permissible by wider society.
  
  5 7
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  December 2, 2023 10:58am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    When murder is legalised can you let me know please?
    Because of reasons….
    
    5 2
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    December 2, 2023 3:45pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Quite right. Tobacco, alcohol, cannabis, meth, heroin, etc should all be legally available to adults. Regulated to minimize harm, of course, but legal. No one interested in liberty and personal responsibility could argue otherwise.
  
  4 8
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  December 2, 2023 11:47am
  - rouppe
    
    Thank you for supporting my argument.
    
    The ban on meth and heroin hasn’t worked. Ergo banning tobacco won’t work.
    
    Never did I say the solution was to legalise heroin.
    
    The consequences on wider society for continuing with the proposed ban (ram raids, black market production enriching gangs even more) are much higher than the consequences of continuing with the status quo.
    
    4 1
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    December 2, 2023 12:04pm
    - Jack5
      
      A fairly recent (July) article saying Portugal is now having second thoughts about its legal-drugs policy.
      
      I think for at least one viewing, the article’s free:
      
      https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/07/07/portugal-drugs-decriminalization-heroin-crack/
      
      4 2
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      December 2, 2023 12:58pm
- KH
  
  Ian Taylor also said he was a past board member of NZ on Air. A says they were as pure as the driven snow. Yadda yadda.
  But but. As the politicians deflected the blame they pointed out it was New Zealand on Air that provided the media bribe money. And wrote the requirements that the separatist agenda was to be promoted.
  On this occasion Ian Taylor shoots himself in the foot.
  
  9 1
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  December 2, 2023 11:50am
  - imalwaysright
    
    I listened to Taylor on Leighton Smith’s podcast.
    Taylor was in favour of kids being taught maori science .
    Smith asked for evidence of maori science .
    Taylor said that maori had gravity before the white man arrived!
    Smith paused and wisely moved on.
    
    10 2
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    December 2, 2023 3:41pm
  - goNZ1
    
    Is he still an actor? Could explain things…
    
    0 0
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    December 3, 2023 1:48am
- Ian Boag
  
  Alcohol was illegal …
  
  Cannabis is illegal in NZ – that has worked well .. Ditto for heroin, cocaine and meth ….
  
  Go figure.
  
  3 1
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  December 2, 2023 7:08pm
cas

I just walked past the TV when Rebecca Wright was interviewing Julian Wilcox at some Newshub Nation breakfast party. He predicted chaotic scenes at Waitangi, Maori will be in the face of the Govt etc etc. I switched it off pretty quickly as those being interviewed all seemed to be of one mind – no balance that I could see.

Have we a date for the official release of He Puapua? It surely would suit the Govt if it was released and there seems no reason not to give it some sunlight.
12 2
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December 2, 2023 10:39am
- pdm
  
  Cas – I just googled Julian Wilcoxbecause I had never heard of him.
  
  Made sense to turn the TV off pronto.
  
  6 0
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  December 2, 2023 4:47pm
Benedict Yu

These poor children are doomed with such parents.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/wellington-woman-sentenced-after-receiving-money-from-teen-daughters-prostitution/QYRPSVCWJBGCRN4YWL4AWIIBJI/

The judge said “he said he hoped the woman and her daughter could repair their relationship.” 🙁

Stupid judge. The poor 16 year old girl should be extracted ASAP.

If it had been her father who was hiring out his daughter for sex, would the judge have been so understanding?
19 2
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December 2, 2023 10:52am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  You misspelt “Dudge.”
  
  5 1
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  December 2, 2023 4:01pm
Bridgenag

Does anyone know why Tremain hasn’t posted any cartoons for awhile?
8 2
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December 2, 2023 10:55am
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  I’ve been asking that and nobody seems to know. He’s about 83 so maybe he’s had enough.
  
  6 1
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  December 2, 2023 3:40pm
Pineapple Lumps

A commenter on here this week said it was pointless to debate abortion. All but a minority who believe in the supernatural are of the view that abortion is ok, so that should be the end of the matter.

The question I would like to ask is,

Are you comfortable with the level of abortion in NZ? It equates to 20% of babies born on an annual basis.

Uptick if yes
Downtick if no

Abortions = 13,000
Births = 57,000
7 12
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December 2, 2023 11:14am
- rouppe
  
  That question can only be answered in line with ones view on abortion in the first place.
  
  Just so long as those that support having an abortion realise they are killing a living foetus that would in the normal course of events be born healthy.
  
  4 2
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  December 2, 2023 12:09pm
  - Pineapple Lumps
    
    Rouppe – certainly those opposed to abortion are going to answer the survey with a downtick – a minority of society but will be higher on KB where there is a greater proportion of pro-family values (alt-right people as described by The Disinformation Project).
    
    I am wanting to see the views on KB when they learn the facts about the level of abortions when compared to the number of births ie 20-25%. It is a very high percentage. I was surprised to find it was that high.
    
    For instance, what cost and resource burden does this put on the Health System and what about the opportunity cost of that?
    
    1 3
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    December 2, 2023 12:53pm
    - Dudley Quaffquaff
      
      I can promise you that the public cost of thousands of abortions is a great deal less than would be the public cost of proceeding with thousands of unwanted pregnancies and births, and dealing with thousands of unwanted babies, to say nothing of the private cost.
      
      7 0
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      December 2, 2023 1:35pm
      - Pineapple Lumps
        
        DQ – you are no doubt right, but it is an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff approach to the situation. How much better would the country be if the pregnancies didn’t occur in the first place? Sure some of the pro-abortion lobby will quote the outliers eg mothers life at risk, rape, faulty contraception. What percentage of the 13,000 do these account for?
        
        2 2
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        December 2, 2023 3:00pm
      - Dudley Quaffquaff
        
        Pineapple, I couldn’t agree more that preventing unwanted pregnancies from occurring in the first place is the best way to reduce the number of abortions. The previous National government was making progress in this regard, let’s hope this one can pick up where they left off
        
        5 0
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        December 2, 2023 4:42pm
- Jack5
  
  Are you asking, Pineapple Lumps, for opinion on whether abortion is wrong when used instead of contraception?
  
  Another angle is the national birth rate.
  
  It’s a pretty big topic.
  
  What relevance are effects of national economy, lifestyle, and social welfare on home child care and housing?
  
  Why do poor countries where food for survival is a factor, why do poorest people have more children than people in rich countries like those of Europe, Japan, America?
  
  The narrower aspect, of abortion law in NZ, is dominated by the matter being a conscience vote in Parliament, rather than a party issue. That means it’s largely between each voter and the voter’s electorate MP.
  
  3 0
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  December 2, 2023 12:14pm
- Dudley Quaffquaff
  
  The right question would be, are you comfortable with the number of women who get pregnant without wanting to? Address that, and the number of abortions will go down. Ban abortion, and the number of illegal abortions, and the number of unwanted babies, and the number of women’s lives derailed, will go up.
  
  6 0
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  December 2, 2023 12:21pm
- wsk12345
  
  I am not anti abortion, in fact in my 20s and 30s had I become accidentally pregnant I would have taken that option. Contraceptives do fail. The more Ive learned about the actual procedure though, particularly the surgical option used after about 15 weeks, the less I am comfortable with it.
  
  MOST abortions in NZ are not due to contraceptive failure, they are due to not using any. (Stats are collected on this and released annually, I can find the source if needed). Ita about 65%. I don’t think we should have abortion as a form of contraceptive – the morning after pill negates any possible need in this regard.
  I also disagree with late term abortion. The proportion of women who don’t know they are pregnant by 8-12 weeks must be tiny. Why is it necessary to allow abortion at 20, 30, 40 weeks? Make a decision ffs, it’s not likely to just go Away if you ignore it.
  
  If we addressed these points, allowed abortion as an exception rather than the rule, made morning after pills free (they can be purchased from the pharmacy) then there is near to zero reasons for abortion.
  
  6 2
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  December 2, 2023 12:28pm
  - Dudley Quaffquaff
    
    Late term abortions are almost always because there’s something wrong medically, either with the mother or the baby. Those are the cases where delay and uncertainty caused by political and legal interference is least> desirable
    
    7 0
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    December 2, 2023 12:50pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    Women not using contraception and then having abortions are exactly the sort of not-thinking-ahead air-heads that we don’t want bringing kids into the world – let’s face it they will not be high quality parents. So seems like a win to me.
    
    4 2
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    December 2, 2023 1:26pm
  - kevn
    
    wwsk… The Dame, mother of one, was quite happy and supported this bill.
    
    1 2
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    December 2, 2023 1:33pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Post birth abortion is what pisses me off.
    
    3 3
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    December 2, 2023 4:29pm
    - virtualmark
      
      Um, Steve, that isn’t a thing. Despite what Fox News and Liz Cheney tell you.
      
      “Post birth abortion” = murder. Any doctor who committed it could be, should be, would be, charged with murder.
      
      There are though situations where a newborn has such significant medical issues that they can’t survive, and they die shortly after birth. That is tragic, but it isn’t abortion, and the law is sensible enough to say it isn’t murder.
      
      3 0
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      December 2, 2023 8:40pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Probably got a lot to do with incest and rape.
  I doubt the abortions are just a contraceptive as is done in some American States.
  
  4 2
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  December 2, 2023 4:05pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Tucker.

https://rumble.com/v3ywwfy-tucker-carlson-reveals-why-he-is-voting-for-trump-and-its-the-mood-of-the-c.html?
7 3
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December 2, 2023 11:15am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

This is huge. Pfizer lied.
“many of whom were coerced by tyrannical vaccine mandates to take a defective product sold by lies.”

https://thepoliticalinsider.com/texas-ag-suing-pfizer-for-vaccine-misinformation-trying-to-censor-jab-critics/?
15 3
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December 2, 2023 11:23am
Jack5

Stuff continues its campaign against the new government.

Today it trots out Ian Taylor, knighted by the Labour Government in 2021, to express – or, excuse my cynicism, feign – disappointment in the new coalition government less than two weeks after it was sworn in.

Taylor used an argument technique popular with medieval theologians, a technique learned when he was a Catholic schoolboy.

Taylor says:

“Reductio ad absurdum – a bit like Maori not being indigenous to the land because they had to travel to get here.”

A reasonable definition of reductio ad absurdum is: “a method of proving a proposition by showing that its denial leads to a contradiction.”

Does Taylor’s statement match a reductio ad absurdum argument?

Regardless, indigenous comes from “Late Latin” indigenus “born in a country, native,” from Latin indigena “sprung from the land, native.”

By this definition, everyone born in NZ is indigenous, including Maori, and excepting Maori born overseas.

As head of a successful technology company, Taylor must know that symbolic logic has helped take the world ahead at a very fast clip, unlike the basic logic of the Catholic theologians who tried to define God into existence.
15 3
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December 2, 2023 11:32am
lifesgood

I was astonished by Mike Hosking’s vehement denial that the MSM had been bribed with the PIJF. Why was he so adamant? Maybe he personally wasn’t because his right leaning is well known by his bosses but how can he talk for the whole of NZME? Wouldn’t NZME have been wise to keep such information from him? I’m a fan of Hosking but this left me disappointed in him.
26 3
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December 2, 2023 11:36am
- mikenmildagain
  
  It’s his stopped clock moment. He can’t be wrong about everything so something that upsets his usual fans is more likely to be correct.
  
  3 21
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  December 2, 2023 11:52am
  - BeaB
    
    He said they weren’t bribed because they didn’t need to be. We could all they were infatuated right from the start with Ardern and her ghostly crew of incompetents.
    
    10 3
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    December 2, 2023 2:03pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Here goes Mike with his reverse psychology again.
    “Wrong about everything”? Please Mike, tidy your act up.
    
    7 2
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    December 2, 2023 4:32pm
- kevn
  
  lifes… Have a read of this.
  https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2023/12/jc-media-take-winstons-bait.html
  
  4 2
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  December 2, 2023 12:55pm
- greybeard
  
  My email to Hosking, dated 28-11-2023:
  
  ” Mike Hosking:
  I can’t believe that you defended the PIJF this morning, and denied that it was a bribe to journalists.
  Of course it was ! Why else would it exist ?
  Why would genuinely politically-neutral journalists need to be asked by a government to observe and promote certain political points of view and in return benefit from multi-millions of taxpayer dollars ?
  Peters hit the nail on the head today, and we all know it because of the reaction. ”
  
  He was very defensive the next morning.
  
  12 3
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  December 2, 2023 3:58pm
  - Sparrow
    
    IZB is owned by NZME the owners of the New Zealand Herald. So broadcasters like Mike so called neutral and right leaning have to toe the party line its simple. He who pays the piper plays the tune. NZ media is incestuous Hoskins is no different from other so called journalists except a lot richer. He is allowed to be right leaving but only to a certain point. NZME accepted the bribe.
    
    8 0
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    December 2, 2023 6:10pm
I remember when

“I am a flawed person, but I care deeply about this city.”

But was not willing to do anything about my behaviour, until it became a matter of public knowledge.
I didn’t care deeply enough to ensure it didn’t affect my mayoral performance.
16 1
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December 2, 2023 12:10pm
- Swifty
  
  Yes, indeed.
  
  5 1
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  December 2, 2023 1:09pm
Ghost

No more Anzac Day, no more Australia Day. Just dates instead of names.

‘Don’t you dare’: South Australian govt’s decision to remove ANZAC Day slammed

Public Holidays Bill 2023
11 1
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December 2, 2023 12:15pm
Chuck Bird

FYI

A Pro-Human Environmental Policy | Michael Shellenberger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Uu5CgGY_Js
8 2
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December 2, 2023 12:26pm
Manu-Rau

Does anyone else find it laughable when Christopher Hipkins accuses his opponent of having ‘no moral compass’?

What about Toni?
18 6
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December 2, 2023 1:14pm
- Steve Todd
  
  I’m delighted to see the former prime minister has found happiness again.
  
  I’m not sure what I hate more about the filthy, conservative, Right: their smugness, or their overarching, completely unwarranted, sense of superiority.
  
  (For others, see https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2023/09/leader_approval_ratings.html#comment-3436768.)
  
  3 11
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  December 2, 2023 2:44pm
  - Swifty
    
    My god man, you’ve a memory like a steel trap!
    
    5 0
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    December 2, 2023 3:13pm
    - Steve Todd
      
      Yep, I take particular note of the more egregious examples of commenters attacking me, mocking me, etc.
      
      If Manu-Rau had left his response to me at the first paragraph, I would have noted it, and moved on. But, oh no, he had to give me the second barrel as well, thereby forcing me to say to myself, “You’ll keep, pal.”
      
      5 5
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      December 2, 2023 3:36pm
  - kevn
    
    I’m sure his ex-wife feels the same.
    
    7 2
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    December 2, 2023 4:06pm
- Ghost
  
  What about Toni?
  
  He’s got a new partner, so?
  
  Sometimes marriages don’t work, it’s best to move on
  
  6 1
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  December 2, 2023 3:11pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  “Does anyone else find it laughable when Christopher Hipkins accuses his opponent of having ‘no moral compass’?
  
  What about Toni?”
  
  What is wrong with you?
  
  5 2
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  December 2, 2023 5:25pm
Ghost

I’m sure I’ve seen this movie before…..

Five Republican senators led by Marco Rubio on Friday asked US President Joe Biden’s administration to ban travel between the United States and China after a spike in Chinese respiratory illness cases.

“We should immediately restrict travel between the United States and [China] until we know more about the dangers posed by this new illness,” said the letter signed by Rubio, the top Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Article
10 1
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December 2, 2023 2:29pm
- Keith White
  
  “I can see by your eyes you must be lying
  When you think I don’t have a clue
  Baby, you’re crazy
  If you think that you can fool me
  Because I’ve seen that movie too
  The one where the players are acting surprised…”
  
  7 1
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  December 2, 2023 5:20pm
David Garrett

Who knows what Maurice Williamson said about the drunken Mayor??

Probably something entirely innocuous…” drunken Wellington wahine” or summat…
9 1
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December 2, 2023 6:36pm
Ghost

How nice, the shift is being taken off the mayor and put on the nation wide problem

Yeah, we don’t have a biased or corrupt media…….

The Wellington Mayor’s admission of having an alcohol problem has shed light on a wider issue in New Zealand.

Tory Whanau spoke out about her addiction after an alleged drunken incident at an inner-city bar two weeks ago.

Article
9 0
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December 2, 2023 8:15pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Extraordinary that we haven’t had the Maori Party telling us how Alcohol consumption is leading to the extermination of their people and demanding that Aotearoa becomes alcohol-free.
  
  https://www.actionpoint.org.nz/alcohol-harm-to-maori
  
  9 0
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  December 2, 2023 8:56pm
  - Suze Wainwright
    
    Surely worry about smoking first… After all, tobacco lobbyists are creating a Stormtrooper army to utterly annihilate the Maori race!
    
    7 0
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    December 2, 2023 9:12pm

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