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November 19, 2023 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 19 November 2023

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General Debate

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Benedict Yu

Yesterday I was handed a reminder that it is best not to admonish folk for their bad behavior. 😳

I was visiting a reserve adjacent to the Heathcote River. Some new grass had been planted on an eroded site next to the river bank with orange cones to stop folk parking there.

A car comes flying in, knocks over the cones, and parks on the new grass seedlings. Reasonably normal looking blonde woman driver. I walked over intending to give her the benefit of my views. Then I spotted her passenger also getting out. A tall Maori guy with extensive facial tattoos and wearing an ankle bracelet.

A close brush with death. 🤯
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November 19, 2023 8:01am
- Suze Wainwright
  
  Oh, that’s just totally unreasonable racial stereotyping
  
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  November 19, 2023 8:12am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Photos fixes that. Have the Council tow the vehicle.
  
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  November 19, 2023 8:14am
  - igm
    
    Bet council would be too busy to touch a gang member or tattooed maori, especially with a scribble chin.
    
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    November 19, 2023 8:20am
    - Sensible moderate views
      
      Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
      igm, you may not realise it, but using that term for a Ta Moko comes across to me as really intolerant and dispectful of the culture of indigenous New Zealanders. Personally, I try to always show tolerance and understanding of others, not least as I hope that I might then get some back in return. Not saying that I always succeed though! Anyway, just some feedback that I hope might be useful.
      
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      November 19, 2023 10:20am
      - Don Beckett
        
        There are no indigenous New Zealanders, unless we take it to mean all those born here are indigenous – but that’s not the case.
        
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        November 19, 2023 10:40am
      - Sensible moderate views
        
        Sorry Don, I meant to reply but accidentally hit report instead. Moderators please ignore! Anyway, I was just going to offer the definition from the Oxford dictionary:
        
        indigenous “(of people) inhabiting or existing in a land from the earliest times or from before the arrival of colonists.”
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:19am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
        Māori are the indigenous people of Aotearoa.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:25am
      - Don Beckett
        
        They are the First Peoples to arrive here, but they do not fulfil the definition of Indigenous. They came here in the 12 – 13 th century as their own history states. They are no different to the arrivals 400 years later, except that they were the first – as far as we know.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:35am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
        By that criterion, only humans in Africa that can trace direct descent form early hominids could count as ‘indigeneous’.
        For normal readers, the definition is descendants of those who inhabited a country or a
        geographical region at the time when people of different cultures or ethnic origins arrived.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:42am
      - bennerg
        
        Having lived and worked in many countries in Europe, Asia, and North America, the attitude that is common there is that tattoos, especially on the face, are a symbol of low character and a criminal nature. In Japan in many places it is seen as highly disrespectful.
        
        This is not a comment on Ta Moko, but a reflection on a world view based on experience over centuries of their life.
        
        There are various components of Maori culture, many have been dropped as their once stone age culture was rapidly integrated into the rest of the world. Obviously their slavery, cannibalism and other remnants of a somewhat warfaring culture have gone, but I find it curious that there has been a renaissance of facial tattos, and some other aspects that make it a challenge for maoridom to be considered a modern society on the world stage. eg. there was a Danish diplomat who got highly offended and upset by the “maori welcome”, that they viewed as very “unwelcoming”. It is not difficult to understand why, and while it can be “explained away”, those people will still not reflect well on our country. Over time then we as a country will be seen in a less than positive way.
        
        I am at a loss to see how some try to force respect from others for what a good number consider as not “pretty”. That is not being offensive – it is a genuine and obvious observation. Like the little boy who observed and said out loud what others were afraid to day, “that the emperor wore no clothes”.
        
        Such an observation is just as valid as the attempt to say it is of some value – and in this world we all have the right to our opinion regarding style, adornment, and art forms. It’s just as valid as those that try and say colonisation was bad for Maori. It’s an opinion, and we all have the right to one. However repeating an opinion does not make it a fact.
        
        Facial adornment, whether it be tattoos, or rings, or even makeup is an individual choice. Whatever, you have to then accept that others may not share your view as to it’s appropriateness.
        
        Some say it Ta Moko more than a tattoo – but the reality is that for most, that it what it is. And they should not be critised if they find them offensive. Especially as it is related to the historical trade in tattooed heads, long abandoned.
        
        Trying to force others to accept your opinion as to whether a Ta Moko is of value or not is unacceptable. If you get push back, whether it is a tattoo or a ring etc, then instead of calling the other person out you need to decide whether your life is better with it or not. And then live with that decision.
        
        Trying to make it the other person’s problem, is a form of gaslighting.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:50am
      - Keith White
        
        “What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.”
        
        What is acceptable for one person in a particular situation should be acceptable for another person in a similar situation.
        
        Or, karma, meet dogma, when it comes to equivalence-of-rhetorical-flourishes, as it’s a two-way street.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:56am
      - Loddenthinks
        
        What a very odd thing to say. How could he possibly realise what comes across to you as as intolerant, “dispectful” or anything else?
        
        Thanks for preaching about your virtue and sanctimony though – perhaps next time you could go and lecture scribble-face and his moll about showing tolerance and understanding of others, including those who have made the effort to prepare and re-sow the grass, and those who would like to enjoy the peace and tranquility without being intimidated?
        
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        November 19, 2023 12:10pm
      - Clyde
        
        Being a woke liberal is as bad as being a criminal with face scribbles.
        
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        November 19, 2023 12:30pm
      - CJames
        
        milky
        If Maori were truly indigenous, they would not have as a critical part of their genealogy the seven canoes, nor would Cape Reinga be the departing point for their spirits back to their homeland – though North Cape would make more sense if they knew how to properly navigate. They can’t have it both ways – either they have always been here of had migration. .
        
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        November 19, 2023 1:15pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        @ Sensible,
        Seems even the Oxford has now been infested, just like the google machine.
        Wonder what Duckduckgo results are like?
        
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        November 19, 2023 1:38pm
      - rouppe
        
        Well then that definition of indigenous had changed, as it used to be defined as “originating or occurring naturally in a particular place” with no reference to colonisation.
        
        Maori arrived before European, but we both arrived the same way: by boat.
        
        Curious that there is no oral history that goes back before the arrival of the Waka. Wonder why that is
        
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        November 19, 2023 2:10pm
      - Taieri
        
        Some say it Ta Moko more than a tattoo
        ———–
        
        Once it was. And it was by no means universal, but was reserved for the people of high social status.
        Now, I suspect, for many it’s just a virtue signalling – “look at me, I’m the real article, a true Maori, untouched by the evil white man”, which is a bit strange when the surname of such person is Smith, Forbes or something similar.
        
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        November 19, 2023 3:29pm
      - Benedict Yu
        
        This guy had two bulldogs on his face. He deserved no respect – he is announcing to the world that he is a gangster.
        
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        November 19, 2023 4:39pm
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        Such a nice boy, and such a big fan of his favourite canine companions.
        
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        November 19, 2023 5:23pm
  - john1234
    
    If he sees you taking that photo… certain death
    
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    November 19, 2023 8:24am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      Yes exactly. I changed course and pretended that I had an intense interest in the local flora.
      
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      November 19, 2023 9:42am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      After they have gone. Benedict is smart enough to work that out.
      
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      November 19, 2023 10:24am
- Chris Nisbet
  
  Ankle bracelet, you say. That’s a sure sign that he’s likely guilty of ultraviolence. If it was just a bit of, I dunno, protesting about removal of basic human rights, he’d be locked away for sure.
  
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  November 19, 2023 8:30am
- kowtow
  
  Discretion is the better part of valour.
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:04am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Discretion : tick
    Valour: ?
    
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    November 19, 2023 9:43am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      Valour is valueless if you’re dead.
      
      https://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/better-part-valor-discretion
      
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      November 19, 2023 11:07am
      - kowtow
        
        Well done MW , and I know , in my case a little knowledge is a dangerous thing , but for some folk here there’s a sadly distinct literal approach to everything, combined with cough cough no knowledge at all.
        
        Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble ……….
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:12am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Depends how many lives a dead hero may have saved.
        All of us have heroes in our ancestry.
        Saying that, I wouldn’t have risked my life for some grass seed either.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:22am
- MCōs
  
  I must get an imitation ankle bracelet from the local two dollar shop.
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:29am
  - igm
    
    Better get a bar code for your chin, seems they are in vogue for the dregs of humanity currently.
    
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    November 19, 2023 10:09am
    - Sensible moderate views
      
      C’mon igm, you can do better that that. We are all human, and all deserving of compassion. Treating others with respect is worthwhile – aside from anything else it helps us to feel more a peace with ourselves. So there is even a self-interest aspect to it!
      
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      November 19, 2023 11:20am
      - igm
        
        Respect is earned not demanded, as is seen in certain political and gang arenas.
        
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        November 19, 2023 1:13pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        “You don’t have to like someone to respect them, and with that respect you gain respect back.” Or something.
        DJT.
        
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        November 19, 2023 1:45pm
  - kowtow
    
    Where ya goin’ na find da blond .
    
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    November 19, 2023 11:15am
    - rouppe
      
      If put a lazy bet on the blonde not being natural.
      
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      November 19, 2023 2:14pm
- Stellaboxer
  
  The facial tattoos are there because he’s the one that’s scared. Trust me ex corrections officer. It’s stating “leave me alone I’m really tough if I’m reckless enough to do this to myself just think what I might do to you.”
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:32am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Why am I thinking of the Govt cowboy?
    
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    November 19, 2023 10:26am
  - I remember when
    
    Also means I have no friends so I don’t have to worry about who I offend.
    
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    November 19, 2023 2:28pm
- Eugene
  
  The woke now realise that the UN definition of indigenous (living in a place before arrival of colonists) doesn’t work for Maori as by their own folklore they were the first colonists – they didn’t migrate here gradually in time immemorial across eg land bridges – instead as the supposedly greatest navigators and seafarers in world history they made planned colonising voyages). So now Mike says the definition is inhabiting an area before the arrival of people of different cultures or ethnicities- well I was here before many such arrivals – yippee I’m indigenous! Where do I sign up for free stuff?
  
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  November 19, 2023 6:45pm
  - jgw739
    
    The USA put a flag on the moon 50 years ago. Does that make them owners? Is the reflected sunlight a gift (koha)? Have they renamed it?
    
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    November 20, 2023 12:00am
- gtdriver
  
  Dam shame the 2 careless vandals didn’t end up in the river.
  
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  November 25, 2023 10:48am
Yvette

This is a partnership’: ACT’s push for Treaty referendum ‘unnecessary’, lawyer says
Joining Newshub Nation on Saturday, lawyer and chair of the National Urban Māori Authority, Lady Tureiti Moxon, agreed with Luxon.
She said a referendum is “totally unnecessary” because the principles are already defined – including partnership, participation, and protection which “came out of the [Ngāi Tahu] land claim in 1987”.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/11/newshub-nation-lady-tureiti-moxon-says-act-s-referendum-on-treaty-of-waitangi-misguided.html

He Tirohanga ö Kawa ki te Tiriti o Waitangi
A Guide to the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi
as expressed by the Courts and the Waitangi Tribunal

… In Te Rünanga o Wharekauri Rekohu v Attorney-General (1993) the then President of the Court of Appeal, Cooke, summarised the views of the judges in the Lands case in respect of partnership:

It was held unanimously by a Court of five judges, each delivering a separate judgment, that the Treaty created an enduring relationship of a fiduciary nature akin to a partnership, each party accepting a positive duty to act in good faith, fairly, reasonably, and honourably towards the other. The words of the reasons for the judgment of the five judges differed only slightly; the foregoing is a summary of their collective tenor.

“akin to a partnership” is not a partnership
“each party accepting a positive duty to act in good faith, fairly, reasonably, and honourably towards the other” is about attitude, not partnership –
not general co-management, nor co-governance
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November 19, 2023 8:19am
- cmm
  
  She might be a lawyer but in this case she is speaking as an activist, not as a lawyer.
  
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  November 19, 2023 11:39am
  - Mummy
    
    She also isn’t Lady Tureiti Moxon, she’s just Lady Moxon, married to Sir David Moxon. AFAIK there aren’t any Lady [first name] Surnames in NZ. You have to be born one, like Lady Diana Spencer.
    
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    November 19, 2023 1:28pm
Matt Long

Israel continues to ramp up violence in the West Bank under cover of the war in Gaza… oh wait.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/six-hurt-suspected-palestinian-shooting-attack-wbank-medics-2023-11-16/
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November 19, 2023 8:21am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  This first part of your comment is undoubtedly true.
  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/west-bank-palestinian-villages-israeli-army-settlers
  
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  November 19, 2023 8:33am
  - Stellaboxer
    
    The Guardian ha ha try the Beano it’s more balanced but admittedly less of a laugh.
    
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    November 19, 2023 9:35am
- Inandout
  
  ML, IDF technology is first class and they will very soon be able to laser Hamas rockets as they enter Israeli air space. Hamas may have access to billions of dollars for warfare but Israel has the brains to keep one step ahead. Arabs should remember that virtually every piece of technology they use on a daily basis was very probably invented by a Jew. Anyway, a link.
  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12747223/IDF-prepare-storm-Hamas-terror-tunnels-Israeli-troops-face-dangerous-stage-ground-invasion-enter-booby-trapped-Gaza-passages-terrorists-lie-wait.html
  
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  November 19, 2023 8:50am
  - Loddenthinks
    
    They have access to billions of dollars for warfare, that was originally given for welfare.
    
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    November 19, 2023 12:14pm
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Just two little letters different
      
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      November 19, 2023 1:06pm
      - krazykiwi
        
        Warfare: Devastating for people today
        
        Welfare: Devastating for people tomorrow.
        
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        November 19, 2023 6:14pm
- Jennycraigsfailure
  
  Just read a first hand account of the Hamas attack on the Jewish state ,with supporting video.
  It was totally disgusting, violence coupled with fanatics, it was unbelievable.
  Not AI generated, it was what happened, I can’t put up a link because if I did,you wouldn’t ever be the same again.
  Butchered women and children,body parts,male and female cut from alive victims,it was like nothing you could ever ima.
  I hope that Isreal never stop,they simply can’t, until all Hamas supporters have been eliminated.
  
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  November 19, 2023 10:01am
  - Paulus
    
    Problem is the it appears that a large numerical percentage of the people in Gaza are fully supportive of Hamas in every respect – not just the terrorists but in all things.
    Despite the destruction of Gaza will still support Hamas against all other Palestinian political parties.
    Hamas are very rich too from donations and that is why the top brass live outside Gaza and are very wealthy from the donations.
    
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    November 19, 2023 2:08pm
    - I remember when
      
      Very few Muslims disagree with the Charlie Hebdo attacks.
      
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      November 19, 2023 2:49pm
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      It’s hard to be sure, Paulus. If I lived in Gaza & was asked what I thought of Hamas, I’d be giving those boys the thumbs up. Because they’d know where I live.
      
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      November 19, 2023 5:26pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Incoming PM Chris Luxon – wait. Says who? Dame Cindy Kiro might appoint Winston Peters!//
But seriously, what is there to stop her?

“From there, the Governor-General appoints the government based on what Parliament wants, and based on the public statements. The Governor-General also appoints the prime minister, based on the political decisions.”

https://www.thepost.co.nz/politics/350100692/when-can-new-government-actually-be-formed
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November 19, 2023 8:23am
- mikenmildagain
  
  A bit naive there, Steve. The governor-general has to appoint a prime minister who can command a majority in the house of representatives.
  
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  November 19, 2023 8:29am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Hook, line, sinker, and most of my arm.
    
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    November 19, 2023 9:27am
- Cassandra
  
  Yeah right! And Hitler is living in Argentina etc.
  
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  November 19, 2023 8:29am
  - Keith White
    
    No no! Hitler’s in Moonbase Alpha, the one they left behind after filming “Space: 1999”.
    
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    November 19, 2023 12:00pm
- pdm
  
  Not going to happen Steve.
  
  Now Dame Cindy appointing Chippy with Marama Davidson as his Deputy PM is a much more likely threat to the country.
  
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  November 19, 2023 8:55am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Your alternative scenario can also not happen.
    
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    November 19, 2023 9:05am
    - Loddenthinks
      
      I bow to your greater experience of alternate scenarios
      
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      November 19, 2023 12:16pm
      - Manu-Rau
        
        LMAO! That is the funniest- and most accurate – response to Milky in the history of Kiwiblog. Well done, Sir!
        
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        November 19, 2023 3:04pm
  - Paulus
    
    If Chippy gets to try he might just make it with Winston, Maori, Greens as well as the rabble Labour.
    
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    November 19, 2023 2:10pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Seems most missed the //
  
  satire
  /ˈsatʌɪə/
  noun
  the use of humour, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people’s stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues.
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:29am
  - Dudley Quaffquaff
    
    Perhaps you could help those of us who are having trouble keeping up? How are we to understand it when you make a satirical remark, flag it as satire, and then say “But seriously” before going on to another point?
    
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    November 19, 2023 10:35am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      I always figured that the “//” was the end of the satire, otherwise I would have put the “//” at the end of the hyperlink.
      But year, what would a dumbarse retired engineer know against the wordsmiths on here?
      
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      November 19, 2023 1:52pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Yes, but further down you said now seriously, what’s to stop her doing it, first have was a joke, but not the second half
    
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    November 19, 2023 10:58am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      See my defence above.
      
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      November 19, 2023 2:06pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  She does not get to decide that, she is approached by Luxon to say he can form government, she does not get to decide who will be pm
  
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  November 19, 2023 10:56am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    I have caused enough trouble for one day Mr G. 🙂
    
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    November 19, 2023 2:07pm
Chris Nisbet

Just saw some Newshub article about some lawyer declaring that there was no need for a Treaty referendum about its nebulous (my view) principles because Maori have a partnership with the Crown. The article mentions that there already are principles (?) and they’re changing/increasing in number over time.
With some rather strange logic she declares that one of the proposed principles (that we’re all equal under the law…) is not true, and it’s not up to the government to decide that we are. She (deliberately?) misinterprets this to mean he thinks we’re all equal).

Some of us might argue this is one of the reasons we do need a referendum – remember, ACT wants this thing so we can nail some of this stuff down and rid ourselves of some of the nonsense ideas about what the Treaty (allegedly) represents.
Me, I’d rather be shot of the thing.. Any document that (according to some of us at least) divides us into two camps doesn’t fit with democratic ideals.
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November 19, 2023 8:25am
- Cassandra
  
  We’re stuck with it Chris. But a referendum (no need to hurry, let’s get used to the idea and let the angries eg Tamihere, run out of steam as their funding is removed) will cement the actual principles rather than the current flavour of the month approach as every Tom, Dick and Claudia has a go at inventing a couple of new ones.
  
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  November 19, 2023 8:33am
  - Chris Nisbet
    
    Some nicely defined principles that make it clear that we’re all as special as each other would pretty much make the Treaty an irrelevance. That’s probably good enough.
    
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    November 19, 2023 9:46am
  - septic skeptic
    
    At some point we should stop paying such reverence to historical documents and change our views as better ideas and evidence emerge. I’m thinking – TOW, Bible, Koran and the second amendment right to bear arms.
    
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    November 19, 2023 11:16am
    - Keith White
      
      I’m sure a lot of butchered and dead Israeli adults would have appreciated the right the bear arms in defense of their women, their children, their babies and themselves to try and avoid the outcome of dying horribly by Hamas butchers, torturers and rapists.
      
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      November 19, 2023 12:02pm
      - septic skeptic
        
        That’s a false equivalence in regard to the gun massacres in the USA. My point is that the US should look at gun control in the current context rather than be beholden to sacred rights bestowed in very different circumstances hundreds of years ago.
        
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        November 19, 2023 1:06pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        If you remove all the gang violence in the Cities- which count as ‘gun massacres’, then the US is way down the Worldwide list of Mass Murders.
        They could do more to stop these non stop shootings if they permitted stop and search and started de-arming the criminals.
        Gun control (whatever that is) Regulations have no effect of the gangs
        
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        November 19, 2023 3:39pm
    - Lenticular
      
      All this insane TOW bullshit (as opposed to the actual TOW which is fine) started after we ditched the Bible. You secularists cocked it up.
      
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      November 19, 2023 6:39pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Tukuroirangi is the one to watch.
    
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    November 19, 2023 2:15pm
- Michael Sommerville
  
  “Just saw some Newshub article about…”
  
  Now there’s your problem.
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:00am
  - Chris Nisbet
    
    I usually don’t go past the headlines, just visiting to keep an eye on what legacy media thinks is important, or how they’ve twisted reality.
    
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    November 19, 2023 9:37am
  - thirteenstars
    
    Indeed. Check out Newshub’s YouTube channel:
    
    https://www.youtube.com/@newshubnz/videos
    
    Look at the first ten vids listed there. The Treaty commentary is about as one-sided as it gets. This one is particularly sickening so have a bucket handy:
    
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB0ziIOrgcw
    
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    November 19, 2023 1:27pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Now I need a cup of tea and a lie down.
      2.23pm. OK, a Stella and a Jacks. Thanks for the kickoff 13.
      
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      November 19, 2023 2:24pm
    - I remember when
      
      If enough people say that’s what the Treaty says ….
      It gets to be that, that’s what the Treaty says.
      
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      November 19, 2023 3:04pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        That is exactly where the Elite Maori are aiming.
        
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        November 19, 2023 3:39pm
- CJames
  
  She might well have a law degree, but she isn’t a constitutional lawyer no can she cite the actual law which confirms her opinion. And that is all it is, an opinion by someone who is NOT a disinterested party.
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:12am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    CJames – it’s narrative control via media, pure and simple gaslighting.
    We’ve been bombarded with similar for the last 4 years and it’s becoming as recognisable as it is predictable.
    
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    November 19, 2023 9:20am
    - CJames
      
      I know it is biased reporting and trying to argue from authority as they don’t quote the views of someone giving a contrary opinion. Stephen Franks, who actually is a lot better qualified, for example would be able to give chapter and verse. Or maybe to be really provocative, DG could weigh in. He is still practicing, more than what the Dame is.
      
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      November 19, 2023 9:38am
      - ClanMcleod
        
        Yes indeed. The complete absence of alternative pov is the only proof needed that it is propaganda and narrative control.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:16am
    - Burtland
      
      Moxon is part of the gonged elite telling us what to think – probably getting worried the trough might run dry.
      
      She was a lawyer in the area of Treaty of Waitangi claims and settlements.
      
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      November 19, 2023 9:45am
      - Steve Todd
        
        Moxon is part of the gonged elite […].
        
        Not strictly true. Tureiti, Lady Moxon – not Lady Tureiti Moxon – is married to a Knight of the Realm, nothing more.
        
        See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tureiti_Moxon, including Personal life.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:05am
      - Burtland
        
        “Moxon is married to a Knight of the Realm nothing more” … Moxon is quite happy to use her husbands title to push her agenda in the media – its use is as political gravitas in narrative control.
        
        Cindy has created a bunch of these gonged idiots for narrative control, nothing more.
        
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        November 19, 2023 12:21pm
      - Steve Todd
        
        Moxon is quite happy to use her husbands title to push her agenda in the media
        
        That has always been my impression, too.
        
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        November 19, 2023 1:17pm
      - Taieri
        
        Cindy has created a bunch of these gonged idiots
        —————
        
        Moxon was knighted in 2014. Nothing to do with “Cindy”.
        
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        November 19, 2023 3:39pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Nek minut Sir Clarke Gayford.
        
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        November 19, 2023 4:32pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    An opinion is an opinion, that is all.
    Any academic qualifications mean nothing to me.
    “Lady”? I thought one inherited that? Not a gong I mean.
    As this Treaty stuff continues, prepare for more Taxpayer funded Academics to come out of the rotten woodwork.
    Tell me I am wrong. The have been two today. (or yesterday)
    
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    November 19, 2023 2:33pm
- PeeJay
  
  As much as I’d like to see the bloody thing thrown in the trash and forgotten about, it’s not going to happen. Any ‘reset’ or tweak to rules, regulations and such will just be overturned by an incoming left government.
  
  A referendum on the principles is easily winnable and cements via popular mandate something that no left government would overturn quickly – particularly if it was a sizeable victory to limit the treaty. Seymour gained considerable experience in doing the hard yards on a complex issue with the end of life choice referendum. Like him or loathe him for his role in this (and plenty on here do hate him for this), he took an incredibly emotional issue and steered it successfully through a referendum.
  
  I’d wager he and ACT would have similar success with a treaty principles referendum – the left know this, which is why they are losing their minds over it. If the left hate something so much that they go nuts and start threatening civil war, then it’s pretty clear that whatever has triggered them is probably a very good idea!
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:15am
- Philview
  
  There is a risk that Iwi could withdraw from the Treaty and backed by the Courts take full control of the country. I am sure in the long game playing out the Supreme Court is weighted towards a certain political orientation.
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:22am
- Yvette
  
  Chris Nisbet – some lawyer declaring that there was no need for a Treaty referendum because “This is a partnership’: ACT’s push for Treaty referendum ‘unnecessary’, she appears to miss the point her words were “out of the [Ngāi Tahu] land claim in 1987” and they refer to “… akin to a partnership, each party accepting a positive duty to act in good faith, fairly, reasonably, and honourably towards the other.”
  
  “… akin to a partnership” is not a partnership, but the way she presents her statement “This is a partnership” probably offends against “a positive duty to act in good faith, fairly, reasonably, and honourably towards the other” – the very referenced words she misrepresents.
  Well, she is a lawyer
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:43am
  - I remember when
    
    Akin to a partnership.
    Something like a fifth cousin?
    
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    November 19, 2023 3:12pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Zero point zero, zero, zero and shitloads of zeros to reach 0.000001%.
      But you are Maori if you feel that you are Maori.
      Now who said that???
      
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      November 19, 2023 4:40pm
  - krazykiwi
    
    “Well, she is a lawyer”
    
    But not a particularly clued up on on this topic. It is constitutionally impossible for the Crown to enter into a partnership with any person or entity. ‘Akin’ makes it clear that the Crown has never had a ‘partnership’ with treaty signatories.
    
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    November 19, 2023 6:31pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  We are the 5 year olds, and Moxon is the teacher. The three “Ps” ffs.
  No need for a referendum, we should listen to legal experts!
  Does she mean idiot Geoffrey Palmer types? He is responsible for 5 Principles that have no conclusion.
  The Net Taxpayer can not continue to fund the Gravy Train. It has cost billions all because of the rogue Waitangi Tribunal re-written Treaty by Hugh Kawharu in 1989.
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:45am
Cassandra

I thought KB might be interested in this from Michael Wolff:
“Put another way, everything that happened in the Trump White House was a product of the president’s fevered impulses: a combination of resentments, dramatic flair, score settling, lack of knowledge or understanding, and a sense of what moved his audience. But this was filtered through a management system Jared had created to lower the immediate temperature precisely to the point where the president would not notice and Jared would not be blamed. One of Kushner’s own consistent justifications for his role, and one of his stated reasons for being in his father-in-law’s White House, was that he made things less bad than they would otherwise have been.”
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November 19, 2023 8:27am
- All_on_Red
  
  Wolff is a notorious liar.
  Here he gets thrown off Morning Joe (!) for lying
  He tries to be sensationalist to sell his books.
  Some fall for it I guess.
  https://www.thecut.com/2018/02/mika-brzezinski-throws-michael-wolff-off-morning-joe-show.html
  Theres Video.
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:48am
  - Swifty
    
    What a grub he is.
    
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    November 19, 2023 10:54am
- virtualmark
  
  I’m no fan of Trump or Kushner, but here I’m with AllOnRed …Wolff is an unreliable fantasist.
  
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  November 19, 2023 4:31pm
Ra Henare

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Propaganda is slowly being exposed.

Well after the Russian invasion of Ukraine started much propaganda was exposed as faulty coming from both sides.

We all remember the early days of Covid when we where told we needed to lock everyone up to keep safe.
Take the Vaccine to keep Granny safe, etc etc etc
All that stuff debunked once the dust settled.

So early reports from any major event need to treated with large grains of salt.
Now propaganda is being exposed from the Israel/Palestine conflict.

It appears that the death toll from the Hamas terror attack (1200 odd not 1400) included the interesting information that is not what it seemed.

1. Many Israelis were killed by “friendly” fire. Being shot by special forces or killed by artillery/tank fire in to their homes when Hamas terrorists were deemed to be in the building.

2. 40 babies were not beheaded and bodies burnt.
The Israelis official list of fatalities includes ONLY one 10 month old baby girl who was killed accidently? by a Hamas terrorist in a firefight with IDF.

One of the reference for my items above
https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/

The usual KB suspects will poo poo this information but you might check its references to personal statements reported in Israeli newspapers.

Also to counter the Hamas wants the destruction of Israel there is a statement repeated from Netanyahu that this is a a war of Amalek. ie to wipe out all the Palestinians.
Reference to Amalek in the Old testament. Deuteronomy 7:1–16 and Deuteronomy 25:16–18

The more I read and research the more the black and white story of October the 7th is changing to many shades of gray,
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November 19, 2023 8:29am
- JimBobJoe
  
  Yep, the Israelis let it happen, killed lots of their own people and it was a basically a black flag operation.
  
  Hamas is basically a humanitarian organisation doing good works under hostile conditions with a few silly, over hyped boys running around doing naughty things….
  
  And those Jews are good at faking things and making narratives stick – look at that Speilberg fellah and Hollywood in general…
  
  ///////SARC!!!!!
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:34am
- Jennycraigsfailure
  
  If you saw the video I saw last night, you wouldn’t sleep for weeks.
  Hamas are scum, they need to be eliminated.
  
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  November 19, 2023 10:28am
- Burtland
  
  interesting article on RNZ – interview with military analyst Jack Wattling.
  
  Hamas can only win by damaging Israels reputation with the international community – social media is now actually part of this war
  
  CNN BBC etc have all unwittingly jointed Hamas’ army.
  
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018915979/jack-watling-the-future-of-warfare
  
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  November 19, 2023 10:40am
  - Jake Dee
    
    Haven’t seen the article yet but CLEARLY social media is part of this war as the media has been part of all wars from the beginning.
    The question is, what are you going to do? This won’t be solved by pointing out this or that little piece of spun narrative. The best we can do is develop some techniques of self defense. There are wolves and snakes out there, do go out unarmed.
    
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    November 19, 2023 1:21pm
  - kowtow
    
    CNN , BBC
    
    I’m not so sure about the “unwitting” bit.
    
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    November 19, 2023 1:23pm
- NothingLeft
  
  Only 1200 civilians; women raped and children butchered, not 1400? Well that’s OK then. Give em all a good telling off and send them on their way.
  
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  November 19, 2023 11:00am
  - Che Guava
    
    I think the point there is that a claim that was constantly made as if it was an immutable fact turned out to be false. Moreover, about a third of the deaths were actually IDF or other official personnel, so the “1200 civilians” claim is also misleading.
    
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/authorities-name-44-soldiers-30-police-officers-killed-in-hamas-attack/
    
    “The Israel Defense Forces has published the names of 378 soldiers, officers, and reservists — many of whom are local security officers — killed during the ongoing war with Palestinian terrorists since October 7, mostly on the border with the Gaza Strip and at least 56 during a ground offensive in the Hamas-run territory. Meanwhile, the Israel Police has listed 59 officers who were killed confronting the terrorists.”
    
    That’s 437 non-civilians. This distinction matters because the constant refrain is “women and children.”
    
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    November 19, 2023 11:36am
    - artemisia
      
      That is a fair point. I guess we will very soon see similar detailed data from Hamas. Including the little girl, assume injured, whose photo was published in 3 different non adjacent locations in the arms of three different men all on the same day. And including the numbers killed or wounded by Hamas friendly fire.
      
      Gazans must know as they keep publishing to the world the number of new casualties there.
      
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      November 19, 2023 12:37pm
      - Che Guava
        
        Pointing out that Hamas uses self-serving propaganda to manipulate public opinion in no way rebuts the claim that Israel does exactly the same thing. After all, Mossad’s former motto is “By way of deception, though shalt do war.” Deception and manipulating public opinion is half the battle in any war.
        
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        November 19, 2023 1:04pm
    - rouppe
      
      “mostly on the border with the Gaza Strip and at least 56 during a ground offensive”
      
      The civilians weren’t on the border. They were at a festival and in kibbutz
      
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      November 19, 2023 2:28pm
      - Che Guava
        
        This quote refers to the non-civilians. If you have any queries, take it up with the Times of Israel who wrote the article.
        
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        November 19, 2023 2:42pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        Che’s comprehension is even worse than that.
        He’s trying to include soldiers killed AFTER 7 Oct with the 1200 killed on that day.
        He even quotes it.
        “names of 378 soldiers, officers, and reservists — many of whom are local security officers — killed during the ongoing war with Palestinian terrorists since October 7, mostly on the border with the Gaza Strip and at least 56 during a ground offensive in the Hamas-run territory.”
        
        The key phrase being “killed during the ongoing war….SINCE OCT 7.
        
        Che is trying to discredit the number of 1200.
        Its quite dishonest.
        
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        November 19, 2023 3:31pm
      - Che Guava
        
        All_on_Red
        Once again, completely wrong. Or dishonest.
        
        “Che’s comprehension is even worse than that. He’s trying to include soldiers killed AFTER 7 Oct with the 1200 killed on that day.”
        
        “The key phrase being “killed during the ongoing war….SINCE OCT 7.
        
        Che is trying to discredit the number of 1200.
        Its quite dishonest.”
        
        If you’d taken the time to read it, you’d see that the date of the article I linked to is 8 October 2023 – that is, the day after 7 October.
        
        In other words, all of the 437 IDF and police I note are included in the 1,200, not additional.
        
        And if you want to question my source, it’s the Times of Israel.
        
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        November 19, 2023 3:54pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        Oh this is GOLD
        If you read the article you linked to it says this;
        “updated: 18 November 2023, 7:16 ”
        
        hahahahahahahaahahah
        What.a.fool
        
        Edit, sorry, I cant stop laughing.
        This is hilarious. All your verbiage and its just rubbish
        Take yourself serious much
        Lol
        
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        November 19, 2023 6:32pm
    - All_on_Red
      
      Hey, looking at the date on the article its says
      ‘8 October 2023, 2:30 pm Updated: 18 November 2023, 7:16 pm ”
      
      So even though it CLEARLY said updated you ignored that and claimed it was 8 October.
      How dishonest
      Good to know you have no credibility though.
      
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      November 19, 2023 7:01pm
- Che Guava
  
  “1. Many Israelis were killed by “friendly” fire. Being shot by special forces or killed by artillery/tank fire in to their homes when Hamas terrorists were deemed to be in the building.”
  
  This is a very plausible hypothesis. Just looking at the images of the aftermath from some of the cites supposedly decimated by Hamas shows clear evidence of heavy tank munitions and intense and sustained Apache helicopter gunship fire, neither of which the Palestinians have. They have AK 47s and other more rudimentary weapons.
  
  The IDF practice of intentionally killing Israelis to prevent their capture is a well established practice, known as the Hannibal Directive:
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
  
  “The Hannibal Directive is a controversial procedure used by Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) to prevent the capture of Israeli soldiers by enemy forces. In one version, it was that “the kidnapping must be stopped by all means, even at the price of striking and harming our own forces. The directive was revoked in 2016, to be replaced by a new directive of unknown content.It was introduced in 1986, after a number of abductions of IDF soldiers in Lebanon and subsequent controversial prisoner exchanges. The full text of the directive was not published, and until 2003, Israeli military censorship forbade any discussion of the subject in the press. The directive has been changed several times.”
  
  This, and others like it, is obviously an extremely Machiavellian policy, but disbelief is not an argument against the fact that political machinations are extremely grubby and often unpalatable to a public that must be convinced that they are the Good Guys.
  
  There is always every incentive to make your enemy look as bad as possible because it justifies your retaliatory response, and this extends to attributing your own actions to your enemy. This is realpolitik in action.
  
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  November 19, 2023 11:22am
  - kowtow
    
    It gets very tiresome refutting the terror apologists and their propaganda here .
    
    Thermobaric grenades and rpgs are not rudimentary . Nor are AKs when massacering festival goers.
    
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/12/hamas-planning-terror-gaza-israel/
    
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    November 19, 2023 12:18pm
    - Che Guava
      
      Actually, you’ve refuted nothing. I think you think ‘refute’ means what Jacinda thinks it means.
      
      “Thermobaric grenades and rpgs are not rudimentary . Nor are AKs when massacering [sic] festival goers.”
      
      I notice you completely dodged the Apache gunship and heavy ordinance point. Well refuded.
      
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      November 19, 2023 12:49pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        And you’ve proved nothing.
        Quoting an entry in Wiki is NOT evidence thats what they are doing.
        
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        November 19, 2023 3:33pm
      - Che Guava
        
        Is the Times of Israel a credible source, then?
        
        https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-chief-puts-an-end-to-contentious-hannibal-protocol/
        
        “The protocol has existed in the Israel Defense Forces for decades, as a response to the often incredibly lopsided prisoner exchanges between Israel and terrorist groups who kidnap IDF soldiers. It again rose to prominence 10 years ago following the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit.
        
        The directive allows soldiers to use potentially massive amounts of force to prevent a soldier from falling into the hands of the enemy. This includes the possibility of endangering the life of the soldier in question in order to prevent his capture.
        
        Some officers, however, understand the order to mean that soldiers ought to deliberately kill their comrade in order to stop him from being taken prisoner, not that they may accidentally injure or kill him in their attempt.”
        
        So we’ve established the reality, that it is a fact that this was an official IDF protocol for decades, so it is entirely plausible that it could be used again if needed, particularly if the Israelis involved were seen as being acceptable collateral damage to the real targets, Hamas.
        
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        November 19, 2023 4:07pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        Haahahaha
        You have just quoted an article which says they dont do it.
        “IDF chief puts an end etc”
        So funny
        Got any proof they actually still do it?
        
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        November 19, 2023 6:30pm
      - Che Guava
        
        It’s a bit like asking “are you still beating your wife?” isn’t it?
        
        Similarly, “do you still have a policy of killing your own personnel to prevent them being taken hostage?”
        
        There’s not an answer to this where the IDF come out looking good.
        
        It is a fact that it was once a policy (which is hair-raising in itself), so there is no reason at all why they wouldn’t dust it off and do it again.
        
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        November 19, 2023 7:10pm
- kowtow
  
  One glaring problem with your spew is that the terrorists/rapists themselves released a huge amount of video of their own atrocities ( or was that Zionist lies too) .
  
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  November 19, 2023 11:22am
  - Che Guava
    
    That’s a non sequiter. Nobody claims that Hamas didn’t do anything, the claim is that a lot of what the Israelis have attributed to Hamas was probably done by the IDF.
    
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    November 19, 2023 12:00pm
    - All_on_Red
      
      ‘probably’
      Lol
      
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      November 19, 2023 3:33pm
  - thirteenstars
    
    Won’t make an difference to the anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist you’re replying to.
    
    It’s all just a bunch of filthy Jews pulling the strings of the evil American imperialists, dontcha know?
    
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    November 19, 2023 1:35pm
    - Che Guava
      
      When you’re calling someone names and putting words in their mouth instead of arguing a substantive point they’ve made, you’re indicating that you’ve lost.
      
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      November 19, 2023 2:45pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        Being caught out blatantly lying is another sign you have lost…
        
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        November 19, 2023 3:34pm
      - Che Guava
        
        “Being caught out blatantly lying is another sign you have lost…”
        
        First, you don’t deny that ad hominems are a sign of defeat. Second, if the claim is “Che is lying” then go ahead and prove the claim.
        
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        November 19, 2023 4:11pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        Well you were caught out lying that deaths post 7/10 actually occurred on 7/10
        Lets be charitable and blame it on ‘comprehension’ issues.
        
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        November 19, 2023 6:36pm
      - Che Guava
        
        Unlike you, I am man enough to concede when I make an honest mistake. It is a rare occurrence, but I have in this case. By contrast, you’ll never admit when you are wrong, which occurs very often and very ostentatiously and obnoxiously. You certainly aren’t displacing any stereotypes, I’ll say that much.
        
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        November 19, 2023 7:20pm
- cmm
  
  ” Many Israelis were killed by “friendly” fire. Being shot by special forces or killed by artillery/tank fire in to their homes when Hamas terrorists were deemed to be in the building.”
  
  Quite like a few were killed by friendly fire, but very unlikely “many”.
  
  Tanks and artillery certainly didn’t hit that rock concert, nor many of the other civilian targets.
  
  For example, there was an Israeli police station that Hamas has overrun that the Israelis then flattened with tanks and bulldozers. Were there some Israelis alive inside when they did so? Maybe. But there were certainly many Hamas who were killed to a man.
  
  It think the Hamas actions should be broken into two:
  
  1) Their military actions. These were their strikes against legitimate military targets.
  2) Their terrorist actions targeting civilians.
  
  Both were extremely well planned and executed.
  
  The military strikes can be somewhat justified as military action. Even Israeli ex-officers are acknowledging that.
  
  Bu the strikes targeting civilians were pure terrorism. Nothing excuses that.
  
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  November 19, 2023 11:51am
- Benedict Yu
  
  I had not heard of your source, “The Greyzone”.
  
  “The Grayzone is a webshite [A] founded by Max Blumenthal (1977–), a contributor to RT. It purports itself to be “a news and politics website dedicated to original investigative journalism on war and empire”,[2] but it mostly promotes Assadist, Russian, Venezuelan, and Chinese propaganda. Especially after Blumenthal’s trip to Moscow.[3][4] The Grayzone is known for using ad hominem attacks by calling critics neocon shills,[5] or McCarthyites.[6]”
  
  https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Grayzone#In_a_nutshell
  
  [A] webshites contain really bad sources of information – or really good sources of bad information. Be forewarned, prolonged exposure may result in the following side effects: nausea, depression, high blood pressure, loss of IQ, periodic outbursts of hysterical guffaws, broken keyboards and monitors.
  
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  November 19, 2023 2:35pm
  - All_on_Red
    
    Ah, that explains a lot.
    We have many here who follow The Duran, which is another Russian Propaganda outlet.
    These nutters are funny with their Dunning Kruger effect.
    
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    November 19, 2023 3:36pm
    - Che Guava
      
      Some lap up the Judeo-American propaganda, others prefer the Russian variety. Maybe even some like a bit of Chinese from time to time. What are we to do? In the information age, we’re all awash with biased propaganda every minute of our lives, but the real Dunning Krugerites seem to be the ones who genuinely believe that theirs is the one and only exclusive source of the disinterested truth.
      
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      November 19, 2023 4:27pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        Information comes from many sources.
        I think the key is to at least understand what you are reading so then you can judge.
        You should try it sometime.
        
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        November 19, 2023 6:38pm
      - Che Guava
        
        Lol. The projection is off the charts here.
        
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        November 19, 2023 7:22pm
  - Ra Henare
    
    BY,
    So you use one website to dis another website. Interesting.
    As both you and I are truth seekers, we look at the references in any article.
    I posted that as a source, not the only source.
    
    Talking about websites and accuracy…dont forget all the Governments websites proclaiming that the Vaccine is safe and effective,
    Haha
    
    I love it when commenters rush to debunk anything they dont like. Early onset cancel culture perhaps or the begining of dementia?
    
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    November 19, 2023 5:40pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/301011294/taylor-swift-fan-dies-at-concert-during-heat-wave
The problem would seem to be the many hours wait in the sun BEFORE they were admitted to the venue.
8.5 hours waiting in line ? Crazy.
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November 19, 2023 8:31am
- rouppe
  
  It’s exacerbated by not being allowed to bring your own water.
  
  Solution seems to be to provide a source of “free” water in one place for a crowd of 60,000. Which is patently stupid.
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:00am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Seems the organisers are not too bright, or just cut things down to save bucks.
    Auckland Trusts Arena last weekend. K something. No staff, no signage, one entry line, no water, no portaloos.
    Someone needs to be in Court or they will just do it again.
    
    https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/no-water-and-no-portaloos-fans-calling-for-refunds-after-chaotic-auckland-k-pop-festival/ar-AA1k84fT
    
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    November 19, 2023 10:06am
    - MCōs
      
      K-pop, boomer
      
      4 2
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      November 19, 2023 1:48pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        I have no idea Millennials are even. Just dorks younger than me.
        There is also a Silent Generation who are not dorks. You work it out MCos.
        
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        November 19, 2023 5:00pm
  - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
    
    Yup, just greed by the Promoter and the Concession holders. Only fluids bought on site permitted.
    
    Dead punters and dehydrated fans?
    
    Just an unfortunate incident. Nothing to see here.
    
    Doesn’t Ms Swift’s company run her promotions?
    
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    November 19, 2023 2:10pm
- Max Mansplain
  
  And then 2 hours of screeching from Taylor. Oh the humanity!
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:50am
  - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
    
    Hopefully one day she’ll find a decent bloke and settle down.
    
    Then she’ll have no more material to work with…. Her entire ouevre seems to be regrettable relationships
    
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    November 19, 2023 2:12pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Who is this Taylor Swift you speak of Kemosabe?
  
  2 1
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  November 19, 2023 5:02pm
  - goNZ1
    
    A new vacuum cleaner sucking in millions of gullible female fans
    
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    November 19, 2023 8:58pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

30 psychological reasons why people lie.

Does this fit our picture? Manipulation? Attention seeking? Habit? Control (big one), Sympathy? Denial? Lots of fun in here.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/30-psychological-reasons-why-people-lie/ss-AA1k8txD?
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November 19, 2023 8:36am
3-coil

Stuff’s mind-bending hypocrisy is again on full display in this morning’s Sunday Star Times. The high priestess of woke, after preaching that the climate debate is over/the science is settled (and no debate will be entered into) again show their true colours.

Yet, it’s evidently ok for Stuff to profit from promoting immensely destructive climate change behaviours! Today, over 20 pages of paid advertising (plus more of toady “articles”) to promote long-haul Carbon-belching recreational cruise-ship and jet-airliner travel to all corners of the globe…the planet/climate be damned!

As the “planet burns” Stuff have blood on their hands. This woke crowd won’t go broke…not while they keep taking this filthy advertising lucre promoting Carbon pollution of our planet – hoping that nobody notices their hypocrisy. How can we trust the veracity of anything at all that Stuff publishes, with their barefaced dishonesty and disinformation such as this?
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November 19, 2023 8:46am
- Swifty
  
  That’s a very good point.
  
  We are surrounded in hypocrisy.
  
  Stuff are happy to profit from the marketing and advertising of frivolous fossil fuel-powered, carbon-belching extravagances – but while also being all holier-than-thou over fossil fuel extraction.
  
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  November 19, 2023 10:32am
  - oldpark
    
    Don’t forget their covertly plastic wrapped daily joke/newspaper .Wonder whats’ their take on that elephant in the room .
    Time to give fossil fuel a rest and talk about Stuff/Dominion/SST polluting the oceans with their plastic wrapped not so funny type of daily dribble .Not much news yet a huge amount of advertising everything, except what people pay for its called News .
    
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    November 19, 2023 11:58am
    - goNZ1
      
      SST is LOL
      
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      November 19, 2023 8:59pm
- Burtland
  
  if you truly want to be green, then the internet will need to be switched off
  
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  November 19, 2023 11:27am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

What if Britain had won the American Revolutionary War?

I have seen many memes on this.
British: “I say old chaps, would you kindly hand over your guns please?”
Patriots: “Fuck off!”

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/what-if-britain-had-won-the-american-revolutionary-war/ss-AA1k4RIQ?
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November 19, 2023 8:46am
- kowtow
  
  Funnily enough the American second amendment on arms is ‘ codified in the British Bill of Rights in 1689, under its Article VII, which proclaimed “that the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law.”
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:18am
- kisekiman
  
  One word: Canada.
  
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  November 19, 2023 6:35pm
goNZ1

The time has come for a Royal Commission of Inquiry into the Violent Abuse and Neglect of Maori children by their Parents/Guardians.

It is a national disgrace that the Maori elite and radicals like Marama Davidson and JT are failing to address.
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November 19, 2023 8:56am
- Ghost
  
  Or they could have an inquiry into child abuse of all children.
  
  23 1
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  November 19, 2023 9:25am
  - Cassandra
    
    Same thing really.
    
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    November 19, 2023 9:47am
    - Ghost
      
      No, an inquiry into Māori child abuse is not the same as all children.
      
      41% of child sexual abuse cases are Māori. 44% of sexually abused children are European. . Are they not deserving to be part of an inquiry because as the poster says a Royal Commission of Inquiry into the Violent Abuse and Neglect of Maori children . How about the tens of thousands of non Māori children in the Oranga Tamariki system?
      
      Minu Jo and Yuna Jo murdered and stuffed in a suitcase. Liane, Karla and Maya had cable ties put around their necks and then smothered to death. So many children deserve to have their deaths heard, their abuse heard.
      
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      November 19, 2023 10:17am
      - Che Guava
        
        Yeah but Maori are only about 17-18% of the population, whereas Europeans are over 70%, yet the absolute percentages are about the same. That means it’s a highly disproportionately Maori issue.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:42am
      - cmm
        
        “41% of child sexual abuse cases are Māori”
        
        41% of REPORTED sexual abuse cases are Maori. As we see with the current Kahui 2.0 case in the media at the moment, there is huge “cultural” pressure to cover up offending within Maori society.
        
        Even 41% is disturbingly high considering only 18% or so of the population are Maori. In other words, the Maori offending rate is around 3x the rest.
        
        But you are right that all offending needs to be considered.
        
        So to does some way of addressing the Kahui Cone of Silence prevalent ing Maori communities.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:58am
      - thirteenstars
        
        Holy Hell, that kind of Mauri math might work on the local marae but you can’t get away with it for those of us who have had at least had a high school education.
        
        The hard lesson is, get those innocent and abused Maori kids into non-Maori homes. Give them a chance. Let them thrive.
        
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        November 19, 2023 8:03pm
  - Aquarius
    
    50% of police call outs for family violence are to Māori households
    Fifty percent………..think about that
    
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    November 19, 2023 10:16am
    - Ghost
      
      44% of sexual abused children are European, 41% Māori, think about that and tell me why an inquiry should be Māori only
      
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      November 19, 2023 10:20am
      - NothingLeft
        
        Because any sane initiative to improve a complex system/problem puts effort into places where the greatest improvements can be achieved. Targeting 15% of the population to fix 50% of the problem means it’s 5x the rate of incidence and therefore pretty much the only sensible place to put in any remediation effort.
        
        But reality is it’s way more focused than that. It’s easy to identify 50% of problem.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:09am
      - David Garrett
        
        Oh I don’t know…perhaps because Maori make up only 15% of the population, but have effectively the same level of child sexual abuse as Europeans?
        
        I don’t know the maths, but that means something like 1 in 15 Maori kids are sexually abused while ‘only’ 1 in 85 Euro kids are.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:19am
      - Ghost
        
        We have a child abuse problem in this country that needs tackling. Not one ethnic group but all.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:25am
      - septic skeptic
        
        You are right in that it shouldn’t be Maori only. But it does need to address why it is disproportionately a Maori problem.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:37am
      - Ghost
        
        Yes it does, and that can be accomplished by an inquiry into child abuse/homicide, of all those cases, not just Māori
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:54am
      - septic skeptic
        
        DG, perhaps with the math it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool rather than….
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:39am
      - Ghost
        
        Perhaps it is better to admit we have a child abuse problem in this country and focus on fixing it, not focusing on one ethnic group but all. Perhaps all children matter and we should aim to tackle all child abuse. Perhaps instead of demanding an inquiry into Māori child abuse we should demand an inquiry into all child abuse, because every child that is physically, mentally, sexually abused, and murdered matter, and stopping the that from happening to any child is what matters.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:49am
      - Che Guava
        
        “We have a child abuse problem in this country that needs tackling. Not one ethnic group but all.”
        
        One abused child of any ethnicity is an issue, but unless we can get into the particulars of who’s doing what and how often, then we’ll solve nothing.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:45am
      - Ghost
        
        And that can be accomplished with an inquiry into child abuse and murder in nz, not one only based on Māori.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:55am
      - rockape
        
        Because 1 sixth of the group is committing 41% of the crime. The other 5 sixths is committing the same amount. One group appears to have a much bigger problem. With health we give more resources to a particular group.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:51am
      - MCōs
        
        “I don’t know the maths, but that means something like 1 in 15 Maori kids are sexually abused while ‘only’ 1 in 85 Euro kids are”
        
        Ask Ron Brierly. He should know
        
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        November 19, 2023 12:21pm
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        We have a child abuse problem in NZ.
        
        It seems to have increased over time
        
        There are ethnic disparities in the rate of abuse.
        
        The high prevalence of substantiated maltreatment and CPS interactions among Indigenous Māori and Pacific Islander children is striking.
        
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6687242/
        
        https://teara.govt.nz/en/graph/29237/child-homicide-rates-for-maori-and-non-maori
        
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        November 19, 2023 2:05pm
      - Paulus
        
        Thought we heard the other day from the Stats Dept/Census that Maori now are actually represented by a population of 8.7%, no longer the mythical 16%.
        Where do the 200,000 new immigrants came in this year fit into the statistics ?
        And how many of the 800,000 population in Australia are still calling themselves Maori ?
        
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        November 19, 2023 2:23pm
      - Benedict Yu
        
        “44% of sexual abused children are European, 41% Māori, think about that and tell me why an inquiry should be Māori only..”
        
        Good grief. You are living and breathing proof that any understanding of statistical analysis has collapsed. I would like to know how old you are.
        
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        November 19, 2023 4:55pm
      - Ghost
        
        So instead of being a dick, answer the question, why should an inquiry be for Māori only?
        
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        November 19, 2023 5:11pm
      - Benedict Yu
        
        I don’t know that an inquiry would yield any new information. Children are injured and killed in dysfunctional families. Those dysfunctional families have known markers. The Social Investment Agency did all the work after Bill English set it up. We also know that Maori children are overwhelmingly over represented in harm and death.
        
        A new inquiry would not tell us anything we don’t already know. The new government should reinstate the Social Investment Agency and target the children at risk. By providing support to the families or where necessary removing the children.
        
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        November 20, 2023 5:06am
- MCōs
  
  Currently there is an Abuse in Care Royal Commission of Inquiry, that has gone on and on.
  You might like to acquaint yourself with who were the perpetrators and victims, particularly in Faith-based Institutions
  
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  November 19, 2023 10:33am
- Pineapple Lumps
  
  We need to stop weaponising statistics to create lazy arguments. The left are prone to doing this for all manner of inequalities. But it is happening on KB too.
  
  Many argue against racial based privileges or positive discrimination when it suits. Saying things like they are only 1/32 maori so shouldn’t benefit from this thing for maori. Logically then, using the same argument, the greatest proportion of these abused children will be non-maori.
  
  Race is not the issue. So stop making it the issue. Or you are just as bad as Marama or Jackson or Tamihere etc
  
  As Ghost posted yesterday many of these children that have been killed died at the hands of Mums new boyfriend. Why are children not taught during sexuality and relationship education that families where a Mum and a Dad make a permanent commitment to be together creates the best environment for children to be raised and to thrive? Instead they are being taught they can identify as any form of sexual entity / deviant that they want to be. It won’t be long before being attracted to children sexually is OK.
  
  NZ is going to have increasing levels of child abuse. It is our combined moral decline that is driving this problem – not race.
  
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  November 19, 2023 12:58pm
  - Ghost
    
    We also have many parents who lack the ability to cope with the stress of being a parent and dont have basic home skills. Let’s bring back Plunkett home visits for every child to catch that. Let’s improve our mental health system to help. Let’s bring back teaching kids in school basic home skills, cooking, sewing, budgeting.
    
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    November 19, 2023 1:11pm
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    I agree it is not race or social class that causes/drives child abuse.
    
    However , substantiated child abuse is disproportionately recorded amongst certain segments of NZ society…and statistically the odds are not in the favour of children in the care of poorly educated and substance-addicted adults.
    
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    November 19, 2023 2:13pm
  - goNZ1
    
    The inconvenient truth is It is race,same as the terrible abuse going on in Aboriginal communities in Australia that some politicians there want a Royal Commission into.If people want special treatment and benefits from taxpayers based on race, they should expect scrutiny of what is really going on among the marae and whanau
    
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    November 19, 2023 9:08pm
    - Ghost
      
      The inconvenient truth is that tonight a lot of children of all ethnic backgrounds are being abused, but some want to make this a race issue to appease their racist attitudes towards Māori.
      
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      November 19, 2023 9:52pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Musk going to get stuck into Soros backed Media Hacks.

Good. Musk is just the person to straighten them out.

https://www.rvmnews.com/2023/11/musk-going-thermonuclear-filing-lawsuit-against-soros-backed-media-hacks-videos/?
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November 19, 2023 9:00am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  It’s interesting that you mention Soros when Musk has brought this on himself by endorsing antisemitic tweets.
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:04am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    What was the antisemitic tweet and what made it antisemitic Mike?
    
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    November 19, 2023 9:22am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      This is the comment which Musk endorsed as ‘the actual truth’:
      
      Jewish communties [sic] have been pushing the exact kind of dialectical hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them.”
      
      https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/16/elon-musk-antisemitic-tweet-adl
      
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      November 19, 2023 9:26am
      - CJames
        
        I thought under the rules of intersectionality, Jews were at the top of the white hierarchy. Maybe another reshuffle is needed.
        
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        November 19, 2023 9:41am
      - Stellaboxer
        
        There you go again with the Guardian I’ve pointed out a more balanced publication but the advice seems to be pearls before swine.
        
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        November 19, 2023 9:54am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Some jews seem to be allergic to the views of others who were present in their history.
        
        The accusation of being antisemitic if you question their history is analogous to being called a racist if you question a coloured persons view of slavery.
        Almost every race has been on the wrong end of slavery and almost every race has at some time been persecuted.
        Jewish history is enmeshed with all history , trying to portray themselves as the most victimised is unrealistic and has become in fact an exercise in onanism.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:00am
      - kowtow
        
        Onan.
        
        There it is again , our culture so deeply embedded in the Holy Land .
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:29am
      - ClanMcleod
        
        I don’t understand what his point is and I don’t have the time or energy to look into the Anti Defamation League who Musk apparently claimed is who he was talking about in a later tweet.
        
        What rings alarm bells for me in these days of complete narrative control is, when you search:
        
        What Jewish groups “push hatred” as was claimed in the tweet endorsed by Musk
        
        Is the absolute uniformity of condemnation of Musk, in fact there are only about 3 versions of the same message in the responses.
        
        Now forgive me for asking inconvenient questions, but apparently the world is full of absolute hatred of Jews and anti semetisim currently. If that’s the case, where are all these people who should be out cheering Musk on?
        
        I’ll reiterate though I shouldn’t have to. I abhor all violence, particularly that directed against innocent people. I don’t care which ‘side’ you are on.
        But after 4 years of similar narrative control during covid, any time I see uniformity of messaging like this, I have to ask why.
        
        I think one thing that Musk has consistently said is correct, that the only racism permitted in media these days is ‘anti white’ stories, and these are every bit as dangerous as any other form of racism.
        
        The world needs to start talking to each other and stop the hysterical hate fest that is evolving. Our species won’t last long at this rate.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:33am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        He’s agreeing that the Jews are promoting hatred of white people. That’s a definitive antisemitic statement.
        
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        November 19, 2023 11:46am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Mike
        
        “He’s agreeing that the Jews are promoting hatred of white people. That’s a definitive antisemitic statement”
        
        How is it antisemitic ?
        His observation doesn’t mean that he hates jews.
        Is it antisemitic to make an observation that casts jews in a negative light?
        Lets apply the same criteria to everyone else.
        Or is that also antisemitic ?
        
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        November 19, 2023 12:00pm
      - NothingLeft
        
        “He’s agreeing that the Jews are promoting hatred of white people. That’s a definitive antisemitic statement.”
        
        What a load of invented propagandist shite. Some Jews do promote hatred of white people, and some protestants, and some catholics and some atheists as well as all sorts of other ethnicities and religions afflicted with far-left wokester critical theory. That’s not antisemitism, that’s just observable reality.
        
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        November 19, 2023 12:01pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        NothingLeft
        The statement referred to Jews generally, unless you thought the words ‘Jewish communities’ only referred to some specific individuals.
        
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        November 19, 2023 12:09pm
      - Che Guava
        
        “Jewish communties [sic] have been pushing the exact kind of dialectical hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them”
        
        The truth isn’t anti-semitic. This is a fact. Jews feel safer, they say, in highly diverse societies with no national character.
        
        The SPLC, the ADL, Hope Not Hate and numerous other Jewish activist groups all push anti-whiteness under the guise of multiculturalism and diversity in European countries (except Israel, of course, which is intended as a Jewish ethnostate with as little diversity as possible).
        
        In the US, Jews were prominent in opposing the 1924 Immigration Restriction Act, and then in sponsoring the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 (aka the Hart-Celler Act, named in part for the Jewish congressman Emanuel Celler )
        
        Then here’s Jewess Barbara Lerner-Spectre, an academic and the founding director of Paideia, the European Institute for Jewish Studies in Sweden:
        
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G45WthPTo24
        
        “I think there is a resurgence of anti-semitism because at this point in time, Europe has not yet learned how to be multicultural, and I think we [Jews] are going to be part of the throes of that transformation which must take place: Europe is not going to have the monolithic societies that there were in the last century.
        
        Jews are going to be at the centre of that. It’s a huge transformation for Europe to make, they are now going into a multicultural mould, and Jews will be resented because of our leading role, but without that leading role and without that transformation, Europe will not survive.”
        
        Finally, here’s Michelle Goldberg in the New York Times with an article called “We Can Replace Them” (ostensibly “white nationalists”, but this is code for white people in general).
        
        https://archive.ph/syPxt
        
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        November 19, 2023 12:32pm
      - Colinxy
        
        This person once said (1 March 2022) “Some people seem to regard any criticism of Israel or of individual Jews as anti-Semitism. That’s obvious nonsense.”
        – mikenmildagain
        
        This article is anti-Elon Musk but has added further communication “backpedaling” about what Musk meant: https://www.mediaite.com/opinion/elon-musk-tries-to-backpedal-after-agreeing-with-anti-semitic-tweet-and-fails-spectacularly/
        
        It has been known for some months that Musk has had issues with the ADL, which is mentioned in the link.
        
        What Musk fully means by “You right that this does not extend to all Jewish communities, but it is also not just limited to ADL” I don’t pretend to know. However, it is clear he doesn’t mean “all Jewish communities”. Is he anti-Semitic? Almost certainly not, but mikenmildagain seems to have gone for holding contradictory beliefs that is central to Leftist beliefs (though I’ll guess that this individual will now pretend that disliking any Jewish community is anti-Semitism, unless it is disliking the Jewish communities known as Israel).
        
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        November 19, 2023 5:13pm
      - cmm
        
        “He’s agreeing that the Jews are promoting hatred of white people”
        
        He is saying the ADL are. Maybe they are, maybe they are not.
        
        But pointing a finger at ADL is not pointing a finger at Jews. Sure, ADL is a Jewish organisation (probably comprising only Jews and promoting what they perceive to be Jewish interests), but they are not Jews.
        
        Nor is it racist to say that BLM are a bunch of dick heads.
        
        If Musk said “ADL are wallies because they are Jews” then you would have a point.
        
        Antisemitism is thrown around a bit too much – like racism.
        
        BTW: I am about as far from a Musk fanboi as you can find, but you’re being silly.
        
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        November 19, 2023 8:00pm
    - NothingLeft
      
      A more nuanced view of Elon’s tweet by orthodox Jew Ben Shapiro:
      https://twitter.com/i/status/1725702681530945687
      
      Clearly nothing but a partisan attack by the usual far left interests on an innocuous observation.
      
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      November 19, 2023 12:53pm
mikenmildagain

The UK government appointed a ‘free speech tsar’ to ensure that universities protect free speech.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/oct/09/englands-university-free-speech-tsar-says-role-is-not-to-conduct-culture-wars
At the same time, the UK government was collecting information on academics and other to ensure critics of government policies weren’t allowed to speak at government events.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/18/shocking-scale-of-uk-governments-secret-files-on-critics-revealed
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November 19, 2023 9:02am
- imalwaysright
  
  Mike
  Thanks for the links, it will come to NZ soon no matter who the government is. The social reflexes have been programmed into most of the population with climate change and wuflu fear regimes. It is now much easier to ostracize anyone who doesn’t follow the narrative.
  Even some of the contributors to this site, believe it or not, who write of their belief in freedom of speech, seek to deny it for those who offend them.
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:29am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    I beleive it.
    
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    November 19, 2023 9:59am
- PeeJay
  
  Good find – read that this morning.
  
  While the Guardian can be hopelessly biased on a lot of issues, their investigative reporting is still up there with the best.
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:30am
Maggy Wassilieff

Jonathon Sumption’s speech on Free Speech

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/lord-jonathan-sumption-free-speech-and-its-enemies
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November 19, 2023 9:17am
- Master Mariner
  
  I was listening to one of his interviews recently.
  
  This statement struck a chord.
  
  ” Only Despots and Dictators control there population by Fear”
  In that context, Then what is the difference with the Covid response by most Governments ?
  
  Its all one and the same .!
  
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  November 19, 2023 1:19pm
SmokerGuy

On newshub nation yesterday a Maori commentator was saying we need to have a mature debate rather than a referendum on the treaty. But the problem is they only want a ‘mature debate’ if the outcome is what they want. If it isn’t there’s protests and complaining. Was there a ‘mature debate’ on the co governance implemented by the previous government? The answer is no and then they complain about pushback.
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November 19, 2023 9:21am
- Cassandra
  
  I’d accept a mature debate followed by a referendum.
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:48am
- Nickc2
  
  A discussion is just that, a lot of self-flagellating numpties flapping their gums in unison, and often led by similar-minded media apparatchiks and academics masquerading as subject matter experts. Additionally, discussions only lead to behaviour changes in the easily influenced.
  Referenda on the other hand lead to changes in society, laws governing society, and punishment/rewards for those whose behaviour is changed as a result of referenda outcome if a referenda’s outcome is binding on a governing body.
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:59am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Nick
    The starting point would be a referendum that asks “Do you want the treaty?”
    
    If that comes back No then we are saved the time, disruption , and cost of trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist.
    
    Otherwise its a bit arse about face.
    
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    November 19, 2023 12:11pm
- Swifty
  
  In the current atmosphere, a debate on any aspect of the Treaty, mature of otherwise, is impossible.
  
  At the first signs of debate, the merest hint, and the Left will explode in foul language and begin to hurl vicious insults and labels, while wildly questioning the motives of all who dare ask a question.
  
  The Left don’t do debate – they just impose.
  
  We should do the same back.
  
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  November 19, 2023 10:12am
  - Swifty
    
    Were these changes and actions from a labour first led by a mature debate?
    
    Changing our country’s name?
    Embedding Maori in otherwise English government communications?
    Three Waters?
    Upending our entire health system while still recovering from an international pandemic?
    Politicising our civil institutions – in their favour.
    Using taxpayer money to bribe news media organisations to follow Labour Party lines?
    Attempting to rewrite our nation’s history and propagandise it via a venal and slanted school curriculum?
    Implement racial discrimination into our nation’s policies, institutions and rules and regulations?
    Remove $100 million dollars from taxpayer pockets and consigning it to funding untested, unproven Maori woo woo masquerading as medical treatments?
    Launching untested, unproven, ill-considered changes to our justice system which, by the way, is coincident with a large spike in crime?
    
    And many, many others.
    
    No, they were not. Labour just did them. And most of them they didn’t even signal in advance – they imposed them without any prior notification whatsoever.
    
    Oh, but now they insist we have mature debates on certain matters. I wonder why?
    
    We’d be mugs to play by their rules.
    
    We should adopt the tactics of the Left.
    
    No talk. Just impose.
    
    But we could perhaps remind New Zealanders that this is merely unwinding what Labour has
    done, and did without any consultation whatsoever.
    
    No ‘mature debate’ for them, no siree.
    
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    November 19, 2023 11:31am
    - Swifty
      
      I’d add that every single one of those policies and actions brought in by Labour were divisive. Every single one. Some majorly divisive.
      
      So where was the mature debate held beforehand?
      
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      November 19, 2023 12:01pm
    - Pope Punctilious II
      
      Another gem from LINO: the decision to fund maatauranga Maaori at a higher rate than science, engineering or medicine at NZ universities. That’s right folks – producing witchdoctors is more important than producing medical doctors (I guess we can poach them from India).
      
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      November 19, 2023 12:28pm
      - lifesgood
        
        Looks like the worm is turning, a New Zealand Herald article referred to Oranga Tamariki as Child Youth and Family several times yesterday. They did intersperse OT as well but at least this is progress back to common sense.
        
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        November 19, 2023 12:49pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Why no ‘binding’ referendum? What are they scared of?
  The Truth!
  
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  November 19, 2023 10:17am
- jgw739
  
  Jacinda promised public consultation on this in 2022. Guess she was waiting for the other 98700 houses to be built first….
  
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  November 19, 2023 10:41am
- Burtland
  
  Willie had the mature co-governance debate at 70 hui with maori – then wouldnt extend it to the rest of the population as Cindy had promised in 2022.
  
  The summary report on what was proposed -too hot to handle for Cabernet- needs to be made public. This would shed some light on what the maori elite are actually thinking.
  
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  November 19, 2023 11:44am
- septic skeptic
  
  Didn’t we have a discussion on co-governance while Cindy was PM? I think I recall that being promised.
  
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  November 19, 2023 11:48am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Septic
    
    Same as the covid investigation she promised.
    
    It is currently being done in private, led by a pro jab, pro mandate Australian
    
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    November 19, 2023 12:16pm
Jimmie

For anyone wondering why the Israelis are determined to wipe Hamas from the face of this earth have a read of this story. Likely sanitized to make it viable for publication. And numpties on the left are trying to pin Israel as being in the wrong??

https://www.foxnews.com/world/israel-police-say-extreme-sexual-violence-rape-by-hamas-terrorists-was-systematic
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November 19, 2023 9:32am
- kowtow
  
  The lack of solidarity from the so called women’s movements and any number of other NGO’s etc (children, disabled, migrant worker etc) says an awful lot about how far the extreme left have infiltrated same .
  Extraordinary however that these NGO’s , un iversities etc are actually siding with extreme violent , ultra conservative , misogynistic , religious movements as per Hamas and the ayatollahs of Tehran.
  
  While they now call for a “ceasefire” they remained silent while the whole of Gaza was literally militarised by hamas basically turning it into huge bunker complex and holding the whole population hostage.
  
  The NGO’s , UN etc working there must have had more than an inkling of what was going on.
  
  “A rape crisis center at a Canadian university signed onto an open letter denying that Israeli women were subjected to rape and sexual violence by Hamas terrorists during the October 7 massacre.”
  
  https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/americas/1700326648-canadian-sexual-assault-center-cosigns-denial-of-hamas-rapes
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:48am
imalwaysright

Watching tame jack on tv1.
He’s interviewing Mahuta .
He’s wearing a tshirt and a faux combat jacket.
He looks like he’s on his way to the skate park.
Regardless of who the minister is he should show some respect for the office
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November 19, 2023 9:37am
- MCōs
  
  Apart from anything else Nanaia Mahuta is no longer a minister. She’s not an MP even.
  Would you prefer young Tame had worn one of those TV1 jackets similar to the one used by the reporter who interviewed the Chathams Island mayor?
  
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  November 19, 2023 10:50am
- Ghost
  
  He’s interviewing an ex politician. Don’t know if she has a new job yet. Nice little chat in a marae, surely there are more important things to pick apart in the interview than what someone is wearing.
  
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  November 19, 2023 10:54am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Thanks for taking the time to comment anyway.
    
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    November 19, 2023 12:19pm
    - Ghost
      
      Thanks for being such a fan of her that you ignore what she says and focus on how someone is dressed. You could have commented about her fobbing off her tweet about Israel, but how jack is dressed is far more important. A few things in that interview should have people questioning what she is saying, but na, omg did you see how jack is dressed.
      
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      November 19, 2023 12:26pm
- Steve Todd
  
  @imalwaysright @ 9:37AM
  
  This is just ridiculous anti-Tame nitpicking.
  
  That interview would likely have been recorded on Thursday or Friday – it was not a live studio interview this morning.
  
  Both Jack Tame and Nanaia Mahuta were dressed casually, and perfectly appropriately. Also, Tame has dressed similarly on a number of occasions this year, when conducting pre-recorded, out-of-studio interviews.
  
  In my view, you totally missed the mark with this churlish, completely unnecessary comment.
  
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  November 19, 2023 12:25pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    I feel like clutching my own pearls , if I had any, after that chastisement.
    
    Jack will be pleased that he has such emotionally charged fans. All the best
    
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    November 19, 2023 12:35pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    I’m an antitameite
    
    3 2
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    November 19, 2023 12:42pm
All_on_Red

Space X achieved a number of objectives today with a good launch of Starship
https://spacenews.com/starships-second-test-flight-where-to-watch/
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November 19, 2023 9:58am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Not exactly an unqualified success when your rocket explodes after a few minutes.
  
  ETA: not an explosion apparently, “a rapid unscheduled disassembly”!
  
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  November 19, 2023 10:01am
  - Inandout
    
    m&m, golly that is on par with Hamas rockets aimed at Israel.
    
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    November 19, 2023 10:22am
    - kowtow
      
      They’re so well “aimed” a relatively high percentage fall in Gaza.( to the delight of the int’l msm who then blame the “Jews”in anti semetic diatribes)
      Perhaps the “ceasefire” marchers could include their own side ,the terrorists in the demand , afterall they started it.
      
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      November 19, 2023 11:34am
  - All_on_Red
    
    Heh, Musk will be going to Mars, while you cant even get out of your basement.
    
    7 4
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    November 19, 2023 11:43am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      He’s not going to Mars, especially after his fortune evaporates with the demise of Twitter.
      
      2 13
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      November 19, 2023 11:47am
      - Inandout
        
        m&m, all Musk has to do is buy up those companies that won’t advertise with him. He is not short of a bob.
        
        7 3
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        November 19, 2023 12:01pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Inandout
        You really think he could buy IBM, Apple, and Oracle after blowing all his cash on Twitter?
        Twitter has been reported as losing 90% of its value since Musk paid $44 billion for it.
        
        3 11
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        November 19, 2023 12:13pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        ‘fortune evaporates’
        
        Lol. If Twitter disappears he’ll still have around $170 Billion to console himself.
        
        9 3
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        November 19, 2023 3:44pm
- NothingLeft
  
  Likely booster problems with fuel slosh and engine starvation during stage separation on the booster led to re-lighting engine failures and ultimately explosion. If so that will take design changes and some time to fix, but might be as simple as adding more baffles to prevent fuel slosh or modifying flip-over maneuver.
  
  Starship sprang an oxygen leak near end of its burn – likely on an engine and perhaps due to ‘hot staging’ induced damage that ultimately led to an explosion a few seconds before it would have been in orbit. But had also shed quite a few heat shield tiles during takeoff that might have caused a shuttle-like re-entry burn-up if it had got that far. That is a bigger problem to fix.
  
  SpaceX could likely do another test flight in a few weeks if it wasn’t for the re-engineering analysis and fixes they need to do. They might fly anyway accepting certain kinds of failure as they try to learn what they can with flawed prototypes.
  
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  November 19, 2023 11:29am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Nothing ,
    Does he use liquid fuel?
    I thought NASA used frozen.
    Has musk changed the technology ?
    
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    November 19, 2023 12:50pm
    - NothingLeft
      
      Liquid oxygen and liquid methane. Technically both subcooled (chilled far below their boiling point – closer to their freezing point to increase their density)
      
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      November 19, 2023 12:57pm
      - imalwaysright
        
        Thankyou
        
        4 0
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        November 19, 2023 3:09pm
  - Terry Dalee
    
    Explosions were purposely induced. Flight Termination system used to induce rapid unscheduled dis-assembly on both Starship and Super Heavy Booster.
    
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    November 19, 2023 4:24pm
  - goNZ1
    
    FAA won’t let them do anymore Starships until investigating last one is completed,which previously took 7 months. Stupid waste of money IMHO
    
    2 1
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    November 19, 2023 9:44pm
Swifty

The poor darlings are forced to steal copper to put food in their mouths.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/133293122/sign-of-the-times-thieves-risk-electrocution-stripping-copper-from-power-lines

This is not reporting – it’s far-left propaganda.

It’s also drawing conclusions in the absence of any corroborating evidence.
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November 19, 2023 10:07am
- kowtow
  
  This poverty and hunger is so widespread the copper thieving happens in wealthy countries like England ( where there’s no welfare , charities or local authorities providing no housing ,health or education).
  
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  November 19, 2023 11:37am
- Ghost
  
  If only potholes were worth money, shit load of them they could steal……
  
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  November 19, 2023 3:15pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Perhaps thievery is the source of our potholes. Having seen the closure of Marsden Pt & subsequent wailing about the disappearance of local bitumen, selected individuals have decided to corner the market by helping themselves to best quality local stuff while they can. The master plan is to sell it back to the Waka K.
    
    Easy money!
    
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    November 19, 2023 5:39pm
Swifty

May I humbly recommend this course of action to Labour politicians now out of work after the recent election.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12765453/How-David-Camerons-ex-lover-fought-addiction-new-life-NUN-praying-six-times-day-working-abbey-dairy.html

Head thee to a nunnery or monastery and spend the rest of your lives seeking penance, forgiveness and redemption for all your damaging and harmful deeds.

I won’t recommend it for Ardern. She’ll just want to run the joint for a brief spell, wreck it especially financially, and then bugger off to new pastures.
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November 19, 2023 10:51am
- nathie
  
  Brilliant! Think of the dress-up opportunities!
  
  Nuns habits for Ardern and Friar Tuck attire for Robertson.
  
  Willie, Kelvin and Phil Twyford could pretend they are the three wise men.
  
  Ginny could enforce the dress-up rules (after all Ardern wouldn’t want to damage her “saintly” reputation).
  
  And Michael Wood could be in charge of the wardrobe issuing!
  
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  November 19, 2023 11:27am
  - kowtow
    
    I thought Ardern and co long ago abandoned their Christian roots.
    
    For them cosplay as Star Wars types might be more appropriate culturally and intellectually .
    
    She a princess , with headscarf . Robbo as Jabba the Hutt…..Mallard directing the storm troopers against , well just about everyone……..
    
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    November 19, 2023 12:09pm
    - nathie
      
      Heh! So you mean Mallard is actually Vader, eliminating anyone in Labour’s way (especially people peacefully protesting oh and public servants) and protecting the socialist Empire elites … was it set on Earth in a place called Aotearoa in 2017-2022 by chance?!
      
      Apparently he was banished to the land of the leprechauns!
      
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      November 19, 2023 1:00pm
      - Paulus
        
        Understood Mallard wanted to go to Dublin as he has family who live there.
        When he is sacked, soon I expect, he will stay there drawing his huge New Zealand pension.
        Even Chippy will not touch him.
        
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        November 19, 2023 2:31pm
      - Ghost
        
        He won’t be fired, will serve his 3 years there.
        
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        November 19, 2023 2:37pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  Good for Cameron’s ex. She seems happy, which more than you can say for plenty of the aristo-blo set.
  
  St Jaxxie of the Plague, on the other hand, is looking to bat higher up the liturgical order.
  
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  November 19, 2023 5:41pm
Tauhei Notts

Go Woke. Go Broke. We have seen it written in so many places. So let’s look into it.
S&P Global Clean Energy Fund down 30% this year.
iShares Global Clean Energy Exchange Traded Fund down 30% this year.
First Trust Global Wind Energy ETF down 20% this year.
Invesco Solar ETF down 40% this year.
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November 19, 2023 11:25am
ClanMcleod

If you listen to nothing else today, listen to this interview with lawyer of the year Tudor Clee.

https://realitycheck.radio/?s=tudor+clee

His revelations about the level of abuse of legal process during covid is next level. I thought I had a good grasp on it, but not even close. Also the treatment of his girlfriend while she was in the~~MIQ~~detention centre was abhorrent.

We are only scratching the surface of the horrors inflicted on us by “kind and caring” Ardern and her backers, Let’s hope Peters gets the proper inquiry he says he wants. This festering sore needs treated.
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November 19, 2023 11:39am
- septic skeptic
  
  Wel, I guess we will find out if an inquiry was actually a priority for Winston in a few days. If you get one, I’ll admit you were right to vote NZF and that it’s a worthwhile outcome. Presently I remain convinced that Winston has other more profitable priorities.
  
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  November 19, 2023 11:58am
- Master Mariner
  
  Wait till i get started. Thanks for link.
  Ill listen now.
  
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  November 19, 2023 1:26pm
  - kevn
    
    MM… I recall you had skin in the game as miserable as it was.
    Political capers, health? Not so much.
    
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    November 19, 2023 3:42pm
    - Master Mariner
      
      Unfortunately so,
      It all become a political fear mongering campaign.
      
      As the interview alludes too, Low intelligent people put into a position power , Always ends in badly.
      
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      November 19, 2023 10:02pm
- mawm
  
  That should be mandatory listening for all the Jacindaphiles. The level of contempt these people showed to fellow New Zealanders just because they had been given power over them by the government. It brings to mind the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment where some students were made to act as guards and others as prisoners and their altered behaviour.
  
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  November 19, 2023 5:09pm
Swifty

Kiwi crony capitalists seek government help in screwing their competitors to feather their own nests.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018915786/producers-pressure-government-to-tax-netflix-and-co

All ultimately paid for by consumers, of course.

Sickening. A desire to return to the damaging protectionism and granting of privilege we thought we had escaped.

Labour would no doubt have agreed to it. They’d portray it and them coming to the rescue of a sector subject to the depredations of an international cabal. And think of the jobs it would save!

Screw it. Let’s just bring back import licenses, trade quotas, huge tariffs and supplementary minimum prices and be done with it.
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November 19, 2023 12:25pm
imalwaysright

Has anyone seen the shorts of the anika moa program where she interviews Bloomfield ?

She asks him why didn’t he just watch the movie Contagion and manage covid that way.

Bloomfield thought that was hilarious and said something like he watched it every night.
Lots of fun! Yuk yuk yuk!

It looks like those who died from covid or died or were injured by the jab he recommended or the people who lost jobs, homes and businesses (and still are) due to his willfully ignorant compliance with a regime are a source of merriment for this man.

He should be in jail.
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November 19, 2023 12:28pm
- lifesgood
  
  She is disgusting. Why would anyone watch her lighting her own farts and despite the fact I have no time for Bloomfield how could he lower himself to be part of it.
  
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  November 19, 2023 12:44pm
  - MCōs
    
    I thought that programme was good fun
    I doubt if the producers give a bag of beans about viewers who just watch to be outraged
    
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    November 19, 2023 2:08pm
    - Ghost
      
      I watched her show once when it started, it’s a pisstake show, not meant to be anything but, the one I saw was fun.
      
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      November 19, 2023 2:42pm
- kevn
  
  imalways… The cinders and ash show. As bad as each other.
  
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  November 19, 2023 3:43pm
  - Master Mariner
    
    Yep, And the reason why we are not happy is because we are Negative// FFS.
    
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    November 19, 2023 10:05pm
Ghost

Hmm, I would have thought the cars not moving the lady would have simply said. “I need to pee, BRB, if the traffic moves I’ll give you a call to see where you are”. Nope I’ll sit here, piss myself and demand compensation for the congestion on the road

Westfield Newmarket customers are demanding accountability from the mall’s owner after shoppers were left trapped in their cars for hours and one woman was forced to wet herself as the queue to exit the Auckland shopping centre’s carpark ground to a halt.

Article
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November 19, 2023 1:03pm
NeverMindTheBollocks

So, there’s a demo today in Wellington in favour of a ceasefire in Gaza.

I’m still waiting for anyone to call for the good citizens of Gaza to expel the cancer that is Hamas from amongst their midst.
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November 19, 2023 1:24pm
- Ghost
  
  How about the son of a hamas founder
  
  Article
  
  His view is what the greens etc should hear.
  
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  November 19, 2023 1:35pm
  - Captain Mainwaring
    
    The greens won’t hear it. They have cloth ears.
    
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    November 19, 2023 1:51pm
- Paulus
  
  The opinion poll recently (and formally in this blog) take in Gaza is that they almost all support Hamas against any other political party.
  
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  November 19, 2023 2:34pm
- goNZ1
  
  So how do they do that when Hamas have the guns not them?
  
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  November 19, 2023 9:50pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

“Luxon, saying much could be done in 30 minutes, said the two parties were still debating the final set of policy issues – an explanation he’d used for the past two days.”

Short meetings, different Hotels? Yep. Anyone heard of Andrea Vance, News of the World? Hacking?
Do not think that NZ suck holing media have not thought of this. I am not saying the NZ media have done this, but why short meetings at different places?

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/national-leader-christopher-luxon-promises-negotiations-are-in-last-stages-but-hurdles-still-remain/ar-AA1k9iuJ?
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November 19, 2023 2:46pm
Vinicius

Winston Peters having a real go at the journos re the $55m Public Interest Journalism Fund handout.

Starts at the 1 minute 55 second mark in this video.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/winston-peters-wants-progress-with-christopher-luxon-as-coalition-talks-drag-on-for-another-day/FT3GY2OFAVGVHFALFYS2NDBYTQ/
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November 19, 2023 3:43pm
- kevn
  
  Vini… No mention of ACT by the msm.
  
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  November 19, 2023 5:28pm
  - Vinicius
    
    Yes, Winnie going for all he can get?
    
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    November 19, 2023 8:53pm
Taieri

The local chapter of Generation Z strikes again…

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/campus/students’-rubbish-frustration-residents

Wonder how many of them voted Green this year?
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November 19, 2023 3:44pm
- Ghost
  
  Damn, I’d call them a bunch of pigs but even pigs are better than that
  
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  November 19, 2023 3:55pm
Ghost

Hmmm, party leader and not PM. Interesting

Labour leader Chris Hipkins is calling for an urgent ceasefire in Gaza, saying “the violence and the killing has to stop”.

Speaking on Sunday as party leader, not caretaker Prime Minister, Hipkins called for a halt to the “appalling attacks and violence”.

Article
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November 19, 2023 4:17pm
- greybeard
  
  In that case maybe he should have a Zoom meeting with his Hamas friends, and tell them directly.
  
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  November 19, 2023 4:28pm
  - Ghost
    
    I disagree. I think internet meetings are so impersonal. We need to get back to meeting people in person…..
    
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    November 19, 2023 4:39pm
- Swifty
  
  Unfortunately Hamas have said they have no intention of halting their attacks.
  
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  November 19, 2023 4:33pm
  - Ghost
    
    They look set to have a 5 day truce to ‘release hostages’.
    
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    November 19, 2023 4:42pm
    - Keith White
      
      They could do that anytime, but they won’t because they are immoral butchers.
      
      9 1
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      November 19, 2023 5:46pm
- Keith White
  
  I think Hipkins and Marama should immediately fly there and be human shields.
  
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  November 19, 2023 5:46pm
- Ghost
  
  But Hipkins’ statement has riled up National, with a spokesperson accusing him of “playing politics” with such a serious issue.
  
  “On Friday afternoon the caretaker Government approached National about calling for a ceasefire,” they said in a statement.
  
  “In response, National asked to see MFAT advice on the matter – we provided feedback on that advice and indicated we were open to a discussion with Labour on it.
  
  “National was then informed of the Labour leader’s statement four minutes before the press conference commenced.”
  
  The spokesperson added that National supports the goal of a ceasefire, however the conditions haven’t yet been right for one.
  
  Article
  
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  November 19, 2023 8:09pm
Chuck Bird

I just heard pro-Palestition Hipkins is calling for a cease-fire as Leader of the Labour Party.
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November 19, 2023 4:26pm
- Keith White
  
  Well Labour is pretty much always guaranteed to be on the side of racist crimhugging.
  
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  November 19, 2023 5:45pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  Given our constitutional state, I don’t actually have a problem with Chippy making it clear that he’s speaking in his role as Leader of the Labour Party. I’d be much more concerned if he was speaking as NZ’s PM, which he still is.
  
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  November 19, 2023 5:46pm
  - Chuck Bird
    
    He is not able to speak as PM unless what he says is agreed to by our future PM.
    
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    November 19, 2023 8:41pm
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Except that we don’t have a guaranteed future PM. At this point, Chris Luxon is merely the leader of the largest individual party in Parliament. There are no guarantees that he will ever be PM.
      
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      November 19, 2023 9:45pm
septic skeptic

I hope 2 of the last 3 sticky issues for the coalition negotiations are the treaty referendum and a royal commission into the covid response with wide ranging terms of reference. If so, I hope National is forced to cave in on both.
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November 19, 2023 4:44pm
- Ghost
  
  4 days ago Seymour said the referendum was still on the table, so it hasn’t been ruled out. I would expect it is one of the things they are working out.
  
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  November 19, 2023 4:52pm
  - MCōs
    
    Maybe they’re quibbling over the sitting arrangements at the conference table.
    https://x.com/kiwicraig74/status/1724544026265927881?s=61&t=yFkzCNMWRCaVt1p5eRxUog
    
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    November 19, 2023 5:20pm
    - Ghost
      
      Oh, I didn’t realise the greens co-leaders were at the meeting, interesting 😜
      
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      November 19, 2023 5:28pm
- kevn
  
  septic… winnies last chance to redeem himself.
  
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  November 19, 2023 5:29pm
- Gravelroad
  
  “and a royal commission into the covid response with wide ranging terms of reference.”
  
  You mean like this which was announced in December 2022?
  https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/12/royal-commission-of-inquiry-into-new-zealand-s-covid-19-response-announced.html
  I fully accept that it won’t please everybody as the usual suspects on here have already written it off as unsuitable and a waste of time.
  
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  November 19, 2023 7:18pm
  - ClanMcleod
    
    ffs Gravelroad, have your read the terms of reference for that faux ‘inquiry’?
    
    If you ever want to show someone a great example of narrative control, this is it. There is no ‘inquiry’. It’s a pure whitewash.
    
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    November 19, 2023 7:38pm
surfing

Why is Chris Hipkin’s calling for a ceasefire but not calling for Hamas to return hostages?

It’s almost like the hostages don’t count to Hipkins.
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November 19, 2023 5:32pm
- ClanMcleod
  
  If there is a ceasefire nobody dies. Why do you seem to have a problem with people not dieing?
  
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  November 19, 2023 7:40pm
  - info@cruzpro.com
    
    A ceasefire will give Hamas time to re-arm so more people will die?
    
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    November 19, 2023 7:57pm
  - rouppe
    
    If there is a ceasefire without conditions, there is no benefit to Israel, only to Hamas.
    
    Yes to a ceasefire that returns all hostages within 3 days. Otherwise, why would Israel do it?
    
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    November 19, 2023 8:13pm
- Ghost
  
  Actually the ceasefire currently looking possible is for the return of the hostages
  
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  November 19, 2023 8:27pm
Keith White

Hipkins, you are not just a feckless incompetent racist, you are an immoral unethical supporter of barbarism.

You want a ceasefire while Hamas who butchered, tortured, raped and murdered freely a few weeks ago, still holds a couple of hundred of hostages?

How dare you speak for our country. You’ve been fired because of your incompetent rampant racist socialist policies, and yet you also propose to give away more of our extorted tax monies to a bunch of barbaric war criminals, Hamas.

Shame on you.

If only we had a process like impeachment so that you could be removed from office before you do further damage to our country, our nation, and our reputation.
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November 19, 2023 5:44pm
NeverMindTheBollocks

Here’s one for all you funksters out there.

It’s just a jump to the left
And a step to the right …

Story of NZ politics since 1935, really.

http://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/culture-101/audio/2018915779/the-time-warp-turns-50-rocky-horror-s-richard-o-brien-and-his-kingdom-of-bling
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November 19, 2023 5:56pm
NeverMindTheBollocks

Looking at the spokespeople in the Gaza footage, it’s remarkable how clean their clothes are.

Given that they’re out of water, and all.
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November 19, 2023 6:15pm
- Keith White
  
  Their masters based in Qatar*, are “worth” (for narrow financial values of worth) over ten billion bucks. So I’d say they can afford to drop a few thou on laundry bills, so, y’know, their butcherous grunts clean up OK for primetime Al Jazeera.
  
  *”Hamas leader Khaled Mashal is a table tennis enthusiast. The billionaire lives a life of luxury in Qatar, and also in Turkey, according to reports. Mashal is one of the $11 billion Hamas triad whose lifestyle has been much different from that of the people Hamas rules.”
  
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  November 19, 2023 6:39pm
  - kevn
    
    Keith… Must be a bit unsettling for him knowing that Mossad is after your tail 24/7.
    
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    November 19, 2023 8:23pm
    - Master Mariner
      
      Yes indeed, I can picture an exploding ping pong ball .
      
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      November 19, 2023 10:12pm
gorse

Some “expert” says Mr. Luxon lost an opportunity to represent NZ’s new direction at APEC. I guess he hasn’t factored into that comment the problem he has trying to deal with Peters. If he only had ACT to deal with he would have been there. But good old “Winnie” seems to be proving to be a pain in the nether regions again.
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November 19, 2023 6:45pm
- Ghost
  
  Would he? Seymour said 4 days ago the referendum was still on the table. So it would make sense one of the issues holding things up is that.
  
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  November 19, 2023 7:49pm
- info@cruzpro.com
  
  I doubt that we’ll ever find out what the eventual agreements entail.
  
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  November 19, 2023 7:52pm
  - Ghost
    
    Incoming Prime Minister Christopher Luxon is continuing to remain tight-lipped around coalition negotiations but when everything is locked in, he’s promised to release the agreement to the public.
    
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    November 19, 2023 8:01pm
- rouppe
  
  APEC would not driver anything important to New Zealand. There’s too much other shit going on in the world
  
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  November 19, 2023 8:07pm
rouppe

“A rapid unscheduled disassembly”.

That is top quality “communications”…
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November 19, 2023 9:13pm
goNZ1

O well,we head into a new week with Mr 6% stringing things out again. I reckon one of the sticking points will be NZF wanting an even bigger Provincial Pork Fund,which Seymour will not have a bar of. If Luxon dosent want to lose his authority he needs to tell the other two they have 24 hours to sort their shit out or he tells the GG we need another election.
Voters will then realise a vote for NZF means Labours back so hopefully turf out Peter’s.
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November 19, 2023 10:07pm

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