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November 17, 2023 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 17 November 2023

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General Debate

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peterwn

So Tova O’Brien thinks she would be a better coalition talks negotiator than Chris Luxon – referring particularly to last Tuesday when there were no talks with Winston. Goodness knows what she expects Chris to do, if she was in Chris’s shoes she would not have a clue. Unfortunately the electorate did not give Chris a clean hand and Chris is having to make do with what he has.
The proof is in the final deal. Winston will extract what he can and Chris will call his bluff as far as reasonably practicable, yes it is brinksmanship and Chris is not without skills in that area. She refers to Chris’s ‘simpering attitude’ with disdain, but then if it helps deliver what Winston wants, then so what?
Arguably it was Jacinda who had the simpering attitude, allowing Winston to dictate where his MP’s sit in the House (nearest the Speaker) and allowing Winston to be Deputy Prime Minister. Chris unfortunately may find it expedient to yield on these points. I hope he does not as appointing a minor coalition leader as Deputy Prime Minister is a travesty of politics and a slap in the face for the hard working Nicola Willis.
Even though Chris may need to yield now, I think he is going to have some nasty surprises for Winston down the track.
See: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301010342/tova-obrien-one-of-the-most-stunning-and-humiliating-displays-of-political-brinkmanship
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November 17, 2023 8:01am
- Sensible moderate views
  
  Back to the polls? I don’t think the electorate would be impressed with that outcome.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:18am
  - peterwn
    
    Could well be, but framed in a way that puts the ‘blame’ on Winston.
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:48pm
- nathie
  
  Not going to click on the article but it was explained recently that the negotiating teams need to return to Wellington to brief the rest of the staff and MP’s and that’s what happened on Tuesday when Luxon/Seymour returned to Wellington from Auckland.
  
  Stuff’s intro uses the word “pantomime” to describe the incoming govt but a check of its meaning …
  
  a theatrical entertainment, mainly for children, which involves music, topical jokes, and slapstick comedy and is based on a fairy tale or nursery story …
  
  … better describes Stuff and Tova immaturely making sh*t up in my opinion!
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:20am
  - Damocles11
    
    She is desperate to be relevant. Came to Stuff as a much heralded new hire, but has struggled to make any impact. She is now demeaning herself to get clicks.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:12am
    - Random T Person
      
      Definitely got that vibe too, especially with the description of her podcast as ‘whip smart’. Tova is not ‘whip smart’, although there could be room for a cat-o-nine-tails there somewhere.
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:54am
    - MCōs
      
      Judging by the amount of chatter about her on this forum I think she’s making am impact alright
      
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      November 17, 2023 1:14pm
      - Jack5
        
        Are any of us chatterers paying to read Terror-Tova? I doubt it.
        
        So not much use to Stuff.
        
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        November 17, 2023 1:52pm
- Kiwiguy
  
  Yes, I noticed that Stuff, and Tova in particular, really have their knives out for the new govt. They’ve come out swinging.
  The best thing National et al can do is to ignore them, rise above the petty media BS, and show them what proper professional, mature, statesmanlike governance looks like.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:21am
  - septic skeptic
    
    The best thing National can do is stop funding them.
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:36am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Including govt advertising budgets.
      
      Any info that govt would generally advertise to citizens should go out in a monthly email to an IRD registered email address. Or mailed out to to those that don’t ‘do’ email. Could be translated to their language if not native english speakers, and personalized to an individuals circumstances – just stuff relevant to them and their family.
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:43am
      - ISeeRed
        
        No translations. Learn English. Or fly back.
        
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        November 17, 2023 2:52pm
    - Paulus
      
      Media propaganda funding is now extended to 2026 apparently by current ex Government -should be cancelled now.
      
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      November 17, 2023 11:01am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Said just that a few weeks ago.
    Trump style – “You are Fake News” Then completely ignore the attention grabbing shits! They hate it when there is no news to make news.
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:42am
- JJ56
  
  I’d have thought ACT would have prior rights to DPM if it goes to a coalition partner and would be able to extract quite a bit by way of returns.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:23am
  - peterwn
    
    Yes. Interesting that the Greens did not get a look in during 2017 talks. If the ‘second’ party was to provide the Deputy Prime Minister, then it should have gone to the Greens. One day Ministerial Services may have to face how to re-jig the Beehive to accommodate co-leaders or co-deputy leaders.
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:58pm
- Ghost
  
  Ardern ruled the cabinet? Please, she had no control over her own ministers who were bully’s and abusive to their staff, didn’t declare their shares, passed on cabinet minutes to outsiders.
  
  As Seymour has already said there was no meeting in Wellington.
  
  A new government hasn’t been formed yet former labour minister because labour shifted the goal post out to three weeks to count the votes.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:25am
  - Pope Punctilious II
    
    Ghost you’re darn right about Ardern “ruling” the cabinet. During her second term it became clear the Maaori caucus was calling the shots.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:22am
- John Loveridge
  
  Frankly, I couldn’t care less about Tova O’Brien’s opinion. There are far better commentators out there.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:25am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Her ‘biased’ opinion.
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:44am
    - Paulus
      
      Nothing new for Tova – expect she will get DCM again soon as Stuff run out of money.
      Last in first out.
      
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      November 17, 2023 11:04am
  - Warren
    
    Who will win the race to discredit Christopher Luxon on what’s happening on the Coalition talk in firming a Government, yesterday it was Jenna Lynch .
    Today we see Mathew Hooton making this statement about the Leader of National and upcoming Prime Minister Christopher Luxon.
    ” you can’t say you wern’t warned”.
    Whatever relationship building and merger-and- acquisition skills Christopher Luxon displayed in Business, they haven’t translated to political leadership.
    By 11.00pm election on election nightie was clear to everyone.
    Mathew Hooton obviously rates his own Leadership skill as he helped cause the National Party coup on Simon Bridges to put Todd Muller in the hot seat and is very well known for his dislike of the National Party.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:16am
    - Sarkozygroupie
      
      Matthew Hooton prostitutes himself out to the highest bidder. This month he has written a PR hit piece for Willie Jackson and was paid by Jackson’s Manukau Authority.
      
      Hooten became irrelevant quite some time back but he has to pay the bills. Integrity and principle doesn’t come into it.
      
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      November 17, 2023 11:31am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        Working with the Hearald pollutes them
        
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        November 17, 2023 12:25pm
  - kowtow
    
    And the boy wonder at NZME radio , jason walls says ” people are getting antsy” .
    
    Really , he can speak for the public ? No it’s the idiotcracy of te media who’re getting their collective panties in a twist.
    
    Wtf is ‘antsy” .
    
    Fuck ’em.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:49am
    - Paul Marsden
      
      The fact they are taking their time indicates to me that they are dotting their ‘ i’s’ and crossing their ‘t’s”. That augurs well for a future, stable govt that is as far removed from the last govt, as possible.
      
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      November 17, 2023 11:31am
    - nathie
      
      You probably heard it but Kerre gave him a serve when he reported in during her show!
      
      Jason was taken back by her saying the public don’t seem to care how long it is taking to form a govt and he was almost speechless whilst he sought to compose himself and respond!
      
      To be fair I reckon Jason is one of the better reporters (especially since Bazza helped him out during the Parliamentary protests last year to see both sides of the story) … but it just goes to show that most the MSM are still in their own beltway bubble fixated on coalition negotiations.
      
      Talking of Bazza (hope he recovering well) I wouldn’t be surprised (with his lifetime of experience – he has seen it all before) that if he was able to work, that he would be slamming the rest of the MSM for their self-interviewing keyboard pantomime fantasies!
      
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      November 17, 2023 12:12pm
      - kowtow
        
        Re last sentence .Soper was rightly feral on his missus’ show about how Jack Lame treated Luxon , with the repeated pointless question over the tax plan.
        Basically Soper said you interview to get info , and if it’s not forthcoming move on.
        Tell ya what that was really pointed and targetted and possibly intended not just for the listeners but also Lame and the rest of the media fools who don’t know their arse from elbow.
        
        As to Walls ; i recall him getting his panties into a very tight twist over the police attack on the freedom camp. On that last day.To the point of high emotion cos iirc he said his brother was a cop there and had such a difficult job in the face of blah blah.
        No attempt at all at professional objectivity at all.
        
        Bar one ot two very notable exceptions we are very badly served by our te media pahti and democracy suffers greatly as a result.
        
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        November 17, 2023 2:48pm
      - Beach Haven expat
        
        HDPA can barely hide her contempt of Walls on her show when he starts spouting drivel and she has to tell him what is actually happening.
        And kowtow is right – Walls was hysterical about the poor police when they stormtroopers into the protest, only admitting halfway through his brother was a cop. At least he did cough to that but was clearly compromised.
        
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        November 17, 2023 8:50pm
- Jack5
  
  One thing about Terror Tova O’Brien: you know where she stands – lies, is laying, lurks … whatever.
  
  O’Brien is still bedazzled by Ardern, long, long after the nightmare mirage popped for the rest of the country.
  
  As someone posted on Kiwiblog recently, at the Ardern press conferences it was, “Yes, Jessica, then Tova …”
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:38am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Scripted questions and answers. All of a sudden someone else gets a question in and away Ardern goes with her word soup waffle. “What did she say?”
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:50am
- I remember when
  
  Tova is the Pam Corkery of today.
  What!! It isn’t as easy once you get into Parliament.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:43am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Nightmares – Nightmares! You mentioned the ‘cork.’
    
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    November 17, 2023 2:57pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  She hasn’t got a clue what has been said, but she says it’s failure, FFS they are now talking portfolios, what part is failing ffs
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:43am
- slightlyrighty
  
  Tova has no idea about what is going on.
  
  The fact is Winston is not in a strong position as he cannot form a government with anyone except National.
  
  National has already said that going back to the polls is an option.
  
  Winston is now in the strange position of not having leverage, so the outcome of the talks is no longer about what Winston can demand, but what National is prepared to concede. It’s a very different dynamic and, as such, may take a bit longer. It would only have been a short negotiation if the Nats had rolled over for Winston.
  
  The extended nature of the process tells me that this has most certainly not been the case.
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:23am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Correct, heard Luxon asked if it’s possible and he said no, I hear Luxon has told Peters no on a number of issues, he will roll back on somethings, but that’s what you do, I still think free fees change of mind was done on purpose, he can boot that if they have to
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:28pm
- Bobba Fret
  
  I wonder why they never open Tova’s articles for comments?
  
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  November 17, 2023 11:05am
  - Colville
    
    It saves them from deleting all the comments telling them she is talking sh*t!
    
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    November 17, 2023 4:55pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    To ask the question is to answer it, comrade
    
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    November 17, 2023 8:27pm
- redeye
  
  Is this the same Tova that really screwed up her own contract negotiations when she crossed from Media Works to Today FM and ended up having to sit out a number of months doing nothing?
  
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  November 17, 2023 11:26am
  - Beach Haven expat
    
    You’d think she’d have more time to think up good lines now she has to take a taxi everywhere?
    
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    November 17, 2023 8:53pm
- herb1
  
  Her negotiating ability and strengths have been on show during her time on TV and then during her radio failures.
  Clearly her skills weren’t able to negotiate an acceptable deal with her TV employers and she clearly failed to negotiate a gentle let down for her and her fellow radio staff.
  Hardly someone with credibility in negotiations
  
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  November 17, 2023 11:54am
- Damocles11
  
  She shows up and shoves her mike under National politicians noses and asks inane questions. This morning it was – to Simeon Brown, Luxon, Bishop – “can you guarantee to Kiwis that your 3 party coalition will last the full three years?” Without a crystal ball that would be impossible. In the end she was reduced to yelling at Luxon “David Seymour wants to be Prime Minister!”
  
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  November 17, 2023 12:12pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    What a pathetic thing for her to say
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:30pm
    - Damocles11
      
      Winston gave her a real serve when she lobbed a question at him this morning, called her ‘article’ today “poppycock” and “rubbish”.
      
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      November 17, 2023 12:52pm
- maggiemay
  
  I don’t read Tova, however her headlines see to be getting more hysterical each day. Hardly unexpected.
  
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  November 17, 2023 1:29pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  A nobody grasping at straws. Ignore.
  
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  November 17, 2023 7:00pm
Yvette

‘Principles’ of the Treaty

‘Contra proferentem’ (Latin: ‘against the offeror’; or ‘interpretation against the draftsman’) in the case of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, means where it … is ambiguous, the preferred legal interpretation should be ‘one that acts against the interests of the party who provided the wording,’ while leaning towards those of the rangatira who signed Te Tiriti on behalf of their hapū, and their descendants.
There is no chance of a referendum on ‘the principles of the Treaty’ achieving this kind of outcome.

First most of those who would vote on the question would be unable to read Te Tiriti o Waitangi in the original. Their understandings of its ‘principles’ would inevitably be shaped by non-Māori understandings of Te Tiriti, and its translations into English, thus breaching the ‘contra proferentem’ rule.

Second, any referendum on ‘the principles of the Treaty’ would be initiated, framed and conducted by the Crown. That would give it a privilege and power in relation to the interests of the descendants of the rangatira who signed Te Tiriti that also violates the ‘contra proferentem’ doctrine.

Third, a referendum at a time when the descendants of the rangatira who signed Te Tiriti are a relatively small minority in the wider population would give them relatively little say in the matter. To marginalise their interests in this way would be another breach of the ‘contra proferentem’ rule.

For these reasons, the idea of putting the ‘principles of the Treaty’ to a popular vote is unjust and unwise, and should not be entertained by any responsible government. – Dame Anne Salmond
https://newsroom.co.nz/2023/11/02/dame-anne-salmond-on-treaty-referendum/

If ‘contra proferentem’ will be breached or violated by a referendum now to rid the original Tiriti o Waitangi (1840 Maori version) of post-1986 add-ons, why was ‘contra proferentem’ not breached or violated when those add-ons were added on, 1986 onwards?

Just asking for a non-Latin speaking friend
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November 17, 2023 8:02am
- Hacked-Off
  
  Sorry but you are wrong. The original of the Treaty was drafted in Whitehall and sent to New Zealand, where Governor Hobson asked the Missionary Henry Williams and his son Edward to translate it into Maori. Hence by your logic the orginal would be the balance would be towards the English ORIGINAL version, and not the Maori copy.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:26am
  - Yvette
    
    Hacked-Off – Sorry but you are wrong
    
    Who is wrong?
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:53am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    This is what happened:
    Go 5 minutes in.
    
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVgY03s6Tqc
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:59am
  - Jake Dee
    
    Sorry, I don’t see it. The treaty was still drafted by the British, Hobson was acting as an agent for The Crown and was not a party to the treaty.
    
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    November 17, 2023 2:25pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Watch again.
      
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      November 17, 2023 2:58pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Watch again. Try 7 minutes in.
        It is 53 minutes. You will have a better understanding after watching all.
        Unless you think Julian Batchelor is an Evangelistic liar?
        
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        November 17, 2023 3:16pm
- kiwikidsnz
  
  Contra Proferentum has it’s legal basis in commercial contracts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_proferentem
  
  Treaty revisionists in the Waitangi Tribunal & elsewhere have long attempted to extend it to a country’s constitutional agreements. That doesn’t make it so.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:37am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    We have a Treaty that is ambiguous.
    
    And all the Lawyers, Judges, Experts recognise that it is ambiguous.
    
    Biff it…. No amount of trying to decipher Latin or Te Reo is going to fix it.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:32am
    - septic skeptic
      
      NZ should go forward as a democracy with equal rights for all – regardless of what the treaty or any revision or translation of it says. Elevating it to the status of the Quran or Moses stone tablets is a daft idea. We can and should choose how best to run the country here and now. I’m against going for a race based system based on some dodgy interpretation of TOW.
      
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      November 17, 2023 12:58pm
- Doc
  
  There is minimal (if any) ambiguity between the final, approved English draft of Te Tiriti, the Te Reo translation that was narrated & signed and a century’s worth of back-translations from Te Reo into English.
  
  The myth of ambiguity stems from the foolhardy adoption of a previously rejected, English draft document as being the “Official” English version of the Treaty.
  
  Consider them for yourself side-by-side:
  Front page
  Back page
  
  The translation is abundantly clear and accurate. (And subsequent speeches made by various Rangatira in the decades that followed further reinforce that they clearly understood what was signed.)
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:48am
krazykiwi

Konstantin Kisin at the 2023 ARC conference with his speech entitled We are in the fight of our lives. Some extracts:

The big debates of the last decade, the culture war, the polarisation are about one thing: the future. There are people like us who believe that our future is to be prosperous, powerful and influential. We are the majority. But there are also some people, whose brains have been broken by an excess of education, who believe that our history is evil. That we do not deserve to be great, we do not deserve to be powerful, that we must be punished for the sins of our ancestors. To them: our past is abominable, our present must be spent apologising and our future is managed decline. My message to those people is simple: how dare you! You will not steal my son’s dreams with your empty words.

And finally, I say to our friends in politics … you did not get into politics to get re-elected. You got into politics to make a difference. We are in the fight of our lives. If courage means anything at all it means doing the right thing and being willing to take the punishment.

We do not get to choose whether to die or not. The only choice we have is whether we LIVE before we do

Kisin is a powerful orator. This vid is well worth 10mins of your time, as is this one from the Oxford Union debate earlier in the year.
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November 17, 2023 8:02am
- kowtow
  
  case in point
  
  London climate vandals smash bank windows to the value of half a million pounds , acquitted by a jury .
  
  That is simply perverse.
  
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  November 17, 2023 8:08am
  - lastmanstanding
    
    Despite the mounting evidence the BBC ABC CNN TVNZ RNZ et al still deny Hammas used hospitals as shields for their operations.
    The IDF are destroying Hammas bit by bit. The MSM are beside themselves such is their Antisemitism. And the joke is giving the number of gays queers alphabet soup in the MSM they just dont get it that Hammas would behead everyone of them.
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:21am
  - Taieri
    
    That is simply perverse
    ————-
    
    Not at all. It’s a very logical consequence of the brain washing that’s been going on for many years. The “climate vandals” that you refer to are just one manifestation of this phenomenon. So are the conclusions of a jury in question.
    Who is funding these “climate vandals”? Who/what else is funded from the same sources? Answering these questions provides a very clear understanding of what is really at stake here and why it happens.
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:25am
- Scott
  
  In New Zealand, now renamed Aotearoa, the narrative is we have a racist past that white people should be deeply ashamed of. That we encountered a prosperous Maori people living in harmony with the environment and we colonised them and that has led us to all the problems that Maori face today. This is the view of all of our liberal/progressive elites including the Labour party, the Greens party, the Maori party and many sections of the National party. This is also the official view it seems of the public service, the judiciary and the mainstream media. The only problem is that it is completely false.
  
  In fact by 1840 the Maori people were exhausted by war. Estimates of the deaths from the musket wars between the tribes vary from 20,000 to over 60,000. The tribes practised cannibalism, slavery and constant warfare. They were a basic tribal culture engulfed by war. No tribe actually owned any land as they were in constant fear of conquest from a stronger opponent. They killed all of the animals and birdlife that they could, including the Haast Eagle, all the species of moa, the Huia bird, the local penguins and seals and they burned 40% of the forests. When Captain Cook discovered New Zealand in 1769 the life expectancy of a Maori person was about 30 and he met some seemingly very old Maori men who were actually about 40.
  
  The colonials brought the law, they brought order and eventually peace reigned over the whole land. They brought sanitation, proper housing, farming, horticulture and a much more prosperous standard of living that was available to all.
  
  The fact is that in the 19th century the Maori people met the most enlightened people in the world at that time. I believe we should respect those ancestors more and the great country they strived to build. And I believe that we should continue their work and build up the society where we are all equal before the law, we all have the same rights and responsibilities, and we can build a prosperous future for ourselves and our families.
  
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  November 17, 2023 8:17am
  - John Loveridge
    
    Damn straight!
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:28am
  - Dave
    
    Scott, I mostly agree with your comments but with one reservation.
    
    Average UK life expectancy at the time of James Cook, while better, didn’t rise to over 40 until about 1800, when Maori life expectancy began to fall, in part because of the musket wars, but more so for the same reasons native life expectancy in the Americas fell – vulnerability to imported diseases to which Europeans had developed some resistance, and this continued long into the nineteenth century.
    
    To your list of colonialism’s benefits, I would add engineering and, horror of horrors, fossil fuels.
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:42am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Can someone please tell the Elite Maori they have got it wrong?
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:12am
    - cas
      
      Talking about the elite Maori where is Tuku Morgan these days. Suspiciously quiet I feel.
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:25am
      - John Loveridge
        
        Chained up in a dungeon somewhere, I’d hope. But it’s more likely he’s busy fomenting plans to accumulate yet more overpaid public sinecures that involve no actual work. May moths consume all of his silk underpants.
        
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        November 17, 2023 12:12pm
  - Pope Punctilious II
    
    “and many sections of the National party”
    
    That’s the most worrying aspect!
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:23am
  - NothingLeft
    
    Before the 19th century the average life expectancy everywhere and all the time was about 30, for the very simple reason that normal fertile women have about 6-8 kids on average and that must be whittled down to about 2 breeding adults or you have population growth that food and other resources can’t accommodate.
    
    So every culture had to have a way of killing off excess children and young adults before they could breed. Infanticide, slavery, disease, famine, war. It was more furtive/less conspicuous in some cultures, but it was always there.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:49am
    - Paulus
      
      It has been suggested that at the time of nhe signing of the requested treaty between the English Queen Victoria and Maori there was only something like 30,000 left as many prior killings and deaths had taken place.
      
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      November 17, 2023 11:10am
  - Tom Hunter
    
    Last year I did a post on Steven Pinker’s analysis of war deaths over time and how they’ve dramatically dropped, Less Killing.. The graph at the link is pretty astounding when you compare some of the tribal wars around the planet over time (New Guinea pops up disturbingly often well into the 20th century) with the mass slaughterfests of WWI and WWII. In terms of intensity of death they’re not even close, but I made this point:
    
    Some of the data is pretty extraordinary and I’m a little surprised that the Maori “Musket Wars” are not listed there since the estimates of 20,000 – 40,000 deaths over a thirty year period, starting with a Maori population of 100,000 easily puts them onto this graph at between 670 and 1,300 deaths per 100,000 people per year.
    
    Which is getting up near the top on Pinker’s chart.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:59am
  - Paul Marsden
    
    “This is the view of all of our liberal/progressive elites including the Labour party, the Greens party, the Maori party and many sections of the National party. This is also the official view it seems of the public service, the judiciary and the mainstream media. The only problem is that it is completely false”
    
    And I have no doubt what they will all have in common, is that will they have no forebears who faced and overcame enormous adversity, to settle and make this little country what it is (was??) today.
    
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    November 17, 2023 11:56am
  - Fuzzysnuggleduck
    
    Hi,
    we probably need to not go too far in the opposite direction in countering the Maori-wonderfulness myth.
    There is a whole lot wrong in terms of facts above, although I agree with the sentiment.
    
    The Huia was hunted to extinction after European arrival. The Haast eagle was not hunted to extinction by Maori but is supposed to have died out as a secondary effect of the extinction of large prey (moa). Yes, many birds both large and small were killed off before Europeans arrived and much forest in the south was burnt.
    Yes, their lifespan was short, as was the same as all pre-industrial or even stone age people. Hard and short like a body building midget. Teeth, bone wear etc. and living beyond 40 years was the exception. Captain Cook however did not record anything specific on their lifespans at that time, but it is theorised in more modern times that the ‘old’ people of the Maori were not as old as they seemed. It also makes sense why ‘old’ people were precious rather than seen as a burdern.
    Land was not held communally because Maori were ‘afraid of losing it in war’, the society was simply different and even chiefs had authority only so long as their tribe chose to accept it.
    
    The Musket wars are not reflective of the standard pattern of warfare before Europeans arrived either. Yes, the musket wars are the true holocaust for the Maori, and entirely driven by Maori culture (and seeking of utu for grandparent’s grievances) but wars were not so extended, far flung, or deadly before the Europeans brought muskets and potatoes as a food crop. The are however 100 times more bloody that compared to the NZ colonial wars.
    
    We can moderate the worst lies of the Maori nationalists but we don’t need to knock down Maori to the ground on all things, such as saying Europeans were simply ‘enlightened’.
    The late 18th century English were in a phase of great humanity in treatment of ‘primitive’ people compared to the previous centuries: the myth of the noble savage (a niave but less silly myth than the wonderful-Maori) and instructions to the likes of Cook or Hobson compare very favourably with other European powers, say the earlier Spanish or the later Belgians. But the Europeans such as the land speculators, the escaped convicts, traders in preserved heads and muskets and the scum of the Europeans who came here in the earliest period were much lamented by the missionaries who were trying to turn Maori to being brown Englishmen – drunkenness and whoring were on display.
    
    Maori were & are simply human, no better or no worse, as individuals. I do not believe in cultural relativity and pretending slavery and cannibalism were not horrible things. The thing which drags Maori down is not what their ancestors did, any more than ours drag or elevate us – but what drags Maori down (today) are the lies about a pre-European utopia, that Europeans were a disaster (and not a positive force) for Maori in NZ, and that Maori today are VICTIMS and owed something by other NZers, and that all their ills come from events long before they were born rather than a serious of poor life choices, lack of real aspiration and family disfunction.
    
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    November 17, 2023 1:14pm
- Philview
  
  The people who say we don’t deserve are of course Marxist revolutionaries with the same old goals. We have in New Zealand some left wing MPs who are extremists but the media would have us believe they are centre left moderates. We have known for years the political slant of our media but the way they are attacking the credibility of the new government over coalition talks is very disturbing.
  
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  November 17, 2023 8:21am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Agree. The Triggernometry channel has some excellent interviews.
  
  https://www.youtube.com/@triggerpod
  
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  November 17, 2023 8:42am
- ClanMcleod
  
  The powerful line in that speech for me is:
  
  But there are also some people, whose brains have been broken by an excess of education, who believe that our history is evil.
  
  I know you are a fan of el gato malo, so you may have read the latest one that popped into my inbox this morning. It is excellent as usual and reinforces this concern in the direction of education in recent years. Here’s a short excerpt.
  
  it’s been an article of faith for decades that those with college degrees out earn those without. and it clearly shows up in the data. the correlation is unmistakable. but, and this is a massive but, that does not mean what many suspect. it does not mean that “college creates earnings and opportunity.” for many, it starts to seem to mean the opposite: college is lost opportunity and vast expenditure and debt accumulation that will never pay for itself. and a lot of this comes down to bad expectations and a form of “lake wobegon fallacy” of statistical illiteracy.
  
  the percentage of americans getting college degrees has exploded from around 4% in 1940 to the mid 37%’s now and this actually understates the issue as this is just the number who successfully completed a 4 year degree. over 70% of recent high school grads enroll in college which means that around 45% of 16-24 year olds are enrolled in college and more than half were at some point. what was once 1 in 20 is now 1 in 2. and that’s a VERY different thing and this is where the cargo cult emerges:
  
  an institution for the top 5 percentiles of a society is a very different place than an institution for the whole top half. it must be structured differently, work differently, place different demands, and perhaps most of all: it’s output and the outcomes of those who attended are going to be different. college is not magic. it does not make people more motivated or smarter. it may select for these traits, it does not make those who attend “higher percentile” in terms of innate ability or expected outcome.
  
  past a point, it may be inflicting harm and i would argue that based on the promises and expectations, it’s creating a mathematical impossibility.
  
  The whole article simply points out that you can’t make the 95 percentile all earn the 5 percentile of top wages. It’s a mathematical impossibility.
  
  To tie this to the comments by Kisin, is this the reason why the whole of western society is apparently imploding and becoming so caustically polarised?
  
  Massive numbers of university educated people who’s expectations have been crushed while simultaneously financially crippling most of them for the rest of their lives?
  
  To add to the problem, because there aren’t enough genuine high paying jobs for the number of people with degrees, most of those who don’t get there, finish up angry and bitter and working back in education or worse, a bureaucratic chair polishing role in government or local council?
  
  Is this the cancer that is the reason for the incredible amount of apparently insurmountable division we are seeing everywhere?
  
  Not saying we shouldn’t educate people, we should, but it certainly seems as though the field of education is going in the wrong direction.
  
  Anyway, el gato malo does the analysis way better than I ever could. Check it out, sort of lengthy, but an outstanding read.
  
  https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/how-higher-education-became-a-cargo
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:20am
  - Taieri
    
    But there are also some people, whose brains have been broken by an excess of education, who believe that our history is evil.
    ————-
    
    Education? Or mis-education?
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:27am
    - ClanMcleod
      
      Good point. Indoctrination is the better description.
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:45am
      - oldpark
        
        Hi ClanMcleod .
        
        Just curious .Falls, Shankill ,Ardoyne, Bone, Short Strand Ballysillan Etc!Etc! or out in the country .
        
        Asking for some people from the mentioned Ghettos? Nuff Said .
        
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        November 17, 2023 1:55pm
  - kiwikidsnz
    
    Peter Turchin has long explained this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction
    https://www.niskanencenter.org/are-we-overproducing-elites-and-instability/
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:44am
  - Jake Dee
    
    I’ll check it out but this looks like Peter Turchin’s Elite Overproduction hypothesis. He’s got some good examples of how this has caused social instability across history.
    In China the Taiping rebels were led by educated men who couldn’t get official positions. The French revolution was full of lawyers and low-level intellectuals who couldn’t advance further because they weren’t nobility.
    
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    November 17, 2023 2:42pm
Yvette

Although Newshub has clickbait–headlined her article as “Disrespectful, arrogant”: ACT’s proposed Treaty rewrite is presumptuous in the extreme” [1], Dame Anne Salmond makes, as I personally perceive her English to mean, the point that you need fluent Maori language to accurately understand the intent of the original te reo version of the Treaty. And I would think it goes further than that, as to need a complete context of a moment in History that is perhaps impossible for anyone, not being about 200 years old, to gauge.

Like –

The term used in the te reo Māori version, ‘kawanatanga’, was a transliteration of the word ‘governance’, which was then in current use. Māori understanding of this word came from familiar use in the New Testament of the Bible (when referring to the likes of Pontius Pilate), and from their knowledge of the role of the Governor of New South Wales, whom they referred to as ‘Kawana’.

– Waitangi Tribunal https://www.waitangitribunal.govt.nz/treaty-of-waitangi/meaning-of-the-treaty/

So, is the Waitangi Tribunal provided translation [2] of the te reo Māori version of the Treaty, done by former Tribunal member Professor Sir Hugh Kawharu, acceptable to Dame Anne Salmond, or what translation does she use to inform her article or any other matter regarding the Treaty?

And what ‘new’ translation warranted the post-1986 add-ons to allow that concept of Queen Victoria agreeing to a position of “co-governance”, a 50/50 royal role with Maori?
____________
[1] https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/11/opinion-act-s-proposed-principles-of-the-treaty-bear-almost-no-resemblance-to-the-original-document.html
[2] https://waitangitribunal.govt.nz/treaty-of-waitangi/translation-of-te-reo-maori-text/
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November 17, 2023 8:04am
- ClanMcleod
  
  Sounds a lot like ‘make it up as you go along to suit whatever narrative you’re trying to push’ by Salmond.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:23am
- Taieri
  
  the point that you need fluent Maori language to accurately understand the intent of the original te reo version of the Treaty
  ————
  
  And an ability to enter the minds of the original signatories to precisely determine their intentions as they were nearly 200 years ago.
  An ability, which, Dame Salmond as an accomplished anthropologist and environmentalist, undoubtedly possesses in a great abundance.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:32am
  - Paulus
    
    For Maori t0 even try and understand the Treaty it is necessary for Maori speak in one language. from the time and understand what it means – which is not possible today.
    
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    November 17, 2023 11:13am
  - Dave
    
    Doing these things, if possible, enables an originalist interpretation of the ToW, assuming one can completely free oneself from contemporary beliefs, but when society’s demographics and beliefs have changed, originalism is not necessarily sensible or relevant.
    
    In 2023, what is the Crown, a Maori , a subject, property? What are (same) rights and privileges?
    
    The US has the same problem with originalist and living-document interpretations of the constitution and solves the conflict formally through constitutional amendments, less formally through manipulating who sits on the Supreme Court.
    
    NZ’s attempt to solve this dilemma is the Waitangi Tribunal, an unaccountable, unrepresentative body with deficient standards of evidence.
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:50pm
Opie

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/national/ashley-bloomfields-fluoridation-orders-ruled-unlawful-by-high-court-failed-to-consider-bora/

It’s on ZB plus (thanks Cranmer!) Bet you don’t see this reported anywhere else.

“…Justice Radich wrote that, “There is, in my view, no getting away from the fact that the Director-General did not turn his mind to Bill of Rights Act considerations when making the decision.”

I’m not sure bloomfield even knows what the bill of rights act is.

It seems pretty normal for him to trample over peoples rights in favour of his preference to force medical practices on them.

How does a guy that forced illegal lockdowns, illegal mandates and now illegal fluoridation have a knighthood?
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November 17, 2023 8:05am
- Ghost
  
  It’s all over the media.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:11am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    Ghost – it took me a while to find any reference to it in the msm in NZ.
    
    Nothing on the Whoreald. Other than something about Whangarei carrying on with the programme despite the High Court ruling.
    
    Took me a while going through Google to find links to the news on Stuff and RNZ, both sites I never visit these days to be fair.
    
    Just another example of a tyrannical government acting illegally without any consequences. The system is in complete mess. Here’s hoping the new team can restore some semblance of order.
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:49am
    - Ghost
      
      Na it’s been on most of the news. Kiwikidsnz posted it in general discussion 3 days ago, I thought you missed it as you didn’t reply to their post.
      
      https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2023/11/general_debate_14_november_2023.html/comment-page-1#comment-3468349
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:00am
      - ClanMcleod
        
        I’ve been pretty busy the last few days and missed that post cheers.
        
        But I NEVER go near Stuff or most NZ mainstream media. I check the Whoreald for their headlines.
        
        I get all the msm feedback from those staunch people on KB who take one for the team and update us on their usual dribble!
        
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        November 17, 2023 10:50am
- Taieri
  
  How does a guy that forced illegal lockdowns, illegal mandates and now illegal fluoridation have a knighthood?
  —————
  
  In the very same way as Jacinda the Kind.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:34am
- ClanMcleod
  
  Because the system is rotten to the core.
  
  It’s the same system that let Michael Baker get away with publicly lying, live on air when he stated he had never said “masks don’t work” when there are multiple sources proving he clearly did.
  
  https://rumble.com/v1cjmox-july-16-2022.html
  
  It’s the same system that let the head of the Immunisation Advisory Centre, Nikki Turner’s husband get away with a wet bus ticket for a “conflict of interest” regarding training of ‘vaccinators’ before the jab rollout.
  
  A spousal relationship at the heart of the Ministry of Health’s $16.5 million contract to educate the army of vaccinators to administer the new Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine raised red flags over the conflict of interest at the time but went ahead nevertheless.
  
  Paywalled, but another revelation about just how broken our systems are.
  
  https://tinyurl.com/5n99e24x
  
  Just a couple of examples.
  
  We were ruled by criminals during the last 4 years. What happened to them? They got feted, high paid jobs, awards and accolades.
  
  The system is utterly screwed. Let’s hope the new lot can fix it.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:40am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Clearly whatever Baker says is not worth a tin of shit.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:22am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Remember the first days of Lockdown were illegal.
    
    The DG of Health – Ashley Bloomfield – had clearly never read the Health Act and had no idea what his powers entailed.
    
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-lockdown-unlawful-for-first-nine-days-high-court-finds-but-says-action-was-justified/
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:40am
    - ClanMcleod
      
      And now he’s the 2ic in charge of the proposed WHO Pandemic Treaty that threatens the sovereignty of NZ.
      
      He should be in jail.
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:54am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Your downticker should be in jail. Get back to the Strandard!
        
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        November 17, 2023 11:48am
      - ClanMcleod
        
        Steve Otto – it’s great confirmation that you’re over the target. 😉
        
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        November 17, 2023 12:13pm
    - peterwn
      
      High Court displays some common sense. It is not really surprising that Health Ministry made a few slips along the way.The Office Solicitor would be more to blame than Ashley.
      
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      November 17, 2023 1:10pm
- Yvette
  
  Opie, from your link –
  Friday’s decision ruled the orders contained a procedural error where Bloomfield failed to give specific consideration to the Bill of Right Act when making the decision in July last year.
  
  But … Taumata Arowai took over from the Ministry of Health as the drinking water regulator on 15 November 2021 …
  https://www.taumataarowai.govt.nz/news/articles/new-drinking-water-rules-and-standards-take-effect/
  
  So, why was Bloomfield making any orders at all to add fluoride to more than a dozen drinking water supplies across the country?
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:10am
- kowtow
  
  That man stood on the Podium of Truth ,the only source thereof and declared that Pink Hair’s companion had not been swimming .
  
  The whole covid cover up / scam encapsulated in that one short episode.
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:55am
artemisia

Job cuts are proposed at Stats NZ to reflect that the data world has changed and it is time for a different approach. Would not be at all surprised if Stats NZ knows it can achieve similar levels of census responses using data already available, maybe a few paper based collections as a check.

Stats NZ has more than 1,000 employees, probably many more at census time, with comms staff apparently feeling targeted.

Sounds like some smart thinking going on. Have to say they do a pretty good job, despite being smacked at census time, that as much political as anything.

It does have a Maori name of course – only 18 letters in it! – but fortunately it is not prominent on their site.
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November 17, 2023 8:07am
Simon

If you wear a mask in court during your criminal trail you are guilty. You would think defence lawyers would tell their scum clients this.
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November 17, 2023 8:09am
- kowtow
  
  Same for people at pro Hamas demos.
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:57am
Simon

Is the labo party toxic in of itself or just attract toxic people?
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November 17, 2023 8:10am
- peterwn
  
  Both.
  
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  November 17, 2023 1:11pm
Simon

MSM very frustrated with coalition talks. Because until they are over MSM cant blame Nat led govt for poverty, homelessness, food banks, mental health problems.

If you think MSM is garbage now just wait.
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November 17, 2023 8:15am
Damocles11

Tova O’Brien is the epitome of the desperate modern day ‘celebrity journalist’, abusing the platform she has been given by writing increasingly shrill and unhinged tabloid style pieces that are rapidly burning up any credibility that she may once have had. She’s is to sensible political discourse what Tony Alexander is to objective and unbiased information about the future direction of the property market.
The demise of Stuff and NZME cannot come soon enough.
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November 17, 2023 8:19am
- Random T Person
  
  Just ignore the silly little girl, for goodness sake. I see Tova’s byline, I don’t bother reading. She is a puella (thanks, one of the Maggies I think?), a high school-level writer, and I would suggest, a high-school level thinker.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:14am
  - sirknz
    
    High school seems a little generous…
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:28am
    - Don Beckett
      
      “puella” is Latin for ‘ a little girl’.
      
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      November 17, 2023 12:31pm
  - nathie
    
    Yep the bylines today of Tova (further besmirching the already besmirched Stuff) and Matthew Hooten (besmirching the NZH) demonstrate the opposite effect by highlighting it’s definitely not worth reading those articles!
    
    Even HDPA and Hosking have pulled back on this self-keyboard-interviewing nonsense in the last 24 hours or so.
    
    Tova and Hooten seem to be a bit slow (or unwilling) to recognise reality and continue with their “pantomime” productions for their own giggles and egos!
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:33am
- plc
  
  So true about Tony Alexander…..he was regarded as a joke by people in Wholesale Banking when he worked at BNZ
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:21am
- kowtow
  
  Lynch not much better.
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:58am
- MCōs
  
  Tova O’Brien’s style of writing is probably designed to bolster readership as much as anything and I doubt if she cares too much who agrees with her.
  Going by the number of people on this forum who seem to read her on Stuff, Sinead Boucher is grinning!
  
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  November 17, 2023 12:05pm
herb1

Article in Stuff this morning about inquest into death of Invercargill toddler.
Coroner finds death due to numerous assaults by boyfriend including severe trauma to spine, which caused his death.
No mention of murder or manslaughter charges pending.
Am I missing something
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November 17, 2023 8:22am
- Tempist
  
  Boyfriend later died in custody, according to RNZ report
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:23am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Shit happens.
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:29am
    - ClanMcleod
      
      Good shit happens sometimes too.
      
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      November 17, 2023 9:57am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  SOCKs syndrome.
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:28am
  - graham
    
    Missed this one … what does “SOCKs” stand for please?
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:04pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Some Other …. Kids
      
      Cam Slater.
      
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      November 17, 2023 12:44pm
NeverMindTheBollocks

I see a surprising number of e-bike riders wearing open toed shoes, and seldom see any wearing gloves. Contrast with motor cyclists, who generally have loads of safety gear. In urban settings, e-bikes aren’t much slower than motorbikes.

It’s almost as if e-cyclists think themselves different, and immune to the laws of physics.
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November 17, 2023 8:23am
- Taieri
  
  What you won’t see very often is high visibility clothing, which, in my view at least, should be compulsory for the cyclists using public roads. And, I say this being one of the cyclists…
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:37am
  - Ian Boag
    
    Rear vision mirrors should be compulsory too
    
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    November 17, 2023 1:45pm
- JackRabbit
  
  …and immune to the laws of physics.
  
  And immune to the laws of the road.
  
  Cruising through red lights next to the gutter, undertaking a line of traffic stopped behind a keep clear zone, that are is allowing right turning traffic through.
  
  Alternately riding on the road, and then footpath, as they choose, zigzagging through traffic, and riding at night without lights.
  
  Riding on road then at intersections shifting onto the side road pedestrian crossing pulling out at speed on front of left turning cars.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:41am
  - Bridgenag
    
    There are scooters around on the roads in Auckland.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:31am
- david in Aus
  
  E-bikes are speed limited to 25 km/hr. Cycling is a normal activity, you should be wearing your every day clothes. Lyrica is not required.
  
  You didn’t mention pedesterians, by your logic they should be wearing high visibility clothes and helmets as pedesterian deaths outnumber cyclists four-fold.
  Moreover, restrict the things that kill pedesterians and cyclists: motor vehicles such as SUVs unless you actually use them off-road.
  
  The reality is cars are essential but we need a culture of respect on the roads. Even better, is bike infrastructure where cars and bikes are separated. Pedesterians have footpaths, cyclists should have the option of bikepaths to where you want to go.
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:50am
  - david in Aus
    
    As a bike commuter I pay heck alot of rates which pays for roads. With near zero wear and tear from bicycles, we deserve better. Motorists have motorways where cyclists and pedesterians are excluded, other road users need similar infrastructure. Getting rid of often free storage of privately owned machinery (cars) on public roads should open up space.
    
    We should be comfortable with kids biking to school. The fact that most parents are not because of safety concerns tells you alot about the state of biking infrastructure.
    
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    November 17, 2023 11:15am
    - david in Aus
      
      The dutch have 1/3 of the rate of cycling deaths compared to this part of the world. They don’t wear helmets or any other ‘gear’.
      Motor vehicles cause the deaths.
      
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      November 17, 2023 11:37am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        You’re in the same club as Julie Anne Genter right?
        
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        November 17, 2023 11:53am
      - NothingLeft
        
        The dutch live in an extremely densely urbanised country where modern town planners did not get the chance to stupidly separate residential areas from planned industrial and business areas, meaning many more people live close to where they work and public transport is more of an option. And the netherlands are legendarily flat.
        
        In dead-flat Chch with a relatively dry climate and not-bad wind cycling accounts for something like 1% of daily trips, and it is a best-case scenario for NZ. Cycling is just not compatible with most people’s lives – eg if you have kids, pets or hobbies that require you to be able to travel around town on a flexible schedule, carrying various equipment or people, or responding to unexpected issues like sick kids, or are older or otherwise more likely to be badly effected by a crash etc (cyclists fall off and get hurt a lot compared to cars).
        
        People don’t want to cycle, it’s slow and inconvenient and they would rather not exert themselves or waste the time on it. Cars are getting cheaper and robo-taxis with or without ride-sharing for commuters will make them even more convenient.
        
        Building any infrastructure to support cycling – or impeding vehicular transport to pander to a vanishingly small minority of cyclists is a colossal waste of money.
        
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        November 17, 2023 12:17pm
      - david in Aus
        
        @SteveOtter. I pay $10000 per year to Auckland Council in rates. I want what I pay for- decent infrastructure.
        Genter? I look at the arguments, not the person. Most Green policies are semi-communist, so I am not inclined to align with them on most issues. I especially dislike hypocrites, which I find many Greenies to be. Using their oil based cellphones, cars, clothes but then wanting to ban oil exploration in NZ.
        
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        November 17, 2023 12:30pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Jacinda banned the oil exploration. Captain’s call.
        No select committee, no parliament vote, just her alone.
        Personally I think it is illegal. Just tear the paper in half and carry on exploring.
        
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        November 17, 2023 12:48pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Dutch culture is not full of bogan f-tards in ever increasingly big “high and mighty” “look at me” f-wit vehicles. They also have very high pop density compared to NZ (making cycle-only paths affordable).
        
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        November 17, 2023 7:36pm
    - david in Aus
      
      @nothingleft. You’re right only 1% of trips are done by cycling. Is it the chicken or the egg? Without infrastructure it will hard to set a higher percentage biking. NZ has a better climate for bike commuting than anywhere in the world. 50% of all car trips are done within 5 km. I know myself how easy it is to make excuses not to use active transport: too cold, too wet, not feeling right, my dog ate my homework…. Not everyone can commute by bike, but if we take 5 to 10% off the roads in cars, we wouldn’t need to spend all this money on new roads.
      
      Most people are inherently lazy, that’s the human condition. We are designed to eat tasty food in excess and avoid exertion, hence our obesity rates.
      
      We need to encourage people to be active and fairly price the space utilised by private motor vehicles. Cars are very space inefficient. Space on the road is taken by mostly single occupancy cars.
      
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      November 17, 2023 2:25pm
      - NothingLeft
        
        I strongly reject the sotto voce effort to force others into behaviour that they do not want to by urban planners and their co-religionist cycling zealots. If is the ugliest of human tendencies – a desire to exercise power and dominance over others (and so ascend societal hierarchy) by subtle or direct means that we see in all fringe ‘revolutionaries’; Greens, woksters, Maori supremacists, Religious fundamentalists, the Safety Elves and Karenocracy in general.
        
        It’s misanthropic narcissism. Every revolutionary is a closeted aristocrat. They are the last people we should ever listen to in setting policy because they only feign interest in the welfare of others.
        
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        November 17, 2023 3:00pm
      - david in Aus
        
        Your choice not to take active transport. Let others have the opportunity to bike commute safely. I am all about choice. That is what the centre right should be about. Your freedom to swing your arms stops when you hit my face.
        
        Many people are forced to take cars because of the lack of safe alternatives. The balance is too car centric.
        
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        November 17, 2023 4:01pm
      - david in Aus
        
        @nothingleft. You and I agree on something. We are not keen on entitled Karens and Kevins. We just disagree who we think are the entitled ones are. I think it is some motorists who have an entitled mindset: petrol taxes paying for roads etc, cyclists taking space from cars, parking etc. Thinking roads are for motor vehicles only.
        
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        November 17, 2023 4:26pm
    - Benedict Yu
      
      “Motorists have motorways where cyclists and pedesterians are excluded, other road users need similar infrastructure.”
      
      Sorry you are deluded. There are 1000 fold more car users than cycle users.
      
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      November 17, 2023 6:36pm
      - david in Aus
        
        Where do get the 1000 fold from? We know from world cities that non-car commuting can be over 50%. Auckland is the second worst city in Australasia for congestion. As Auckland grows what the best path forward? More car based roads because most trips are made by cars? Illogical.
        
        The last thing we need is something like Los Angeles. I go to conferences there, it takes 20 minutes to cross the road in places. Ghastly car centric places. Where do you hear, we need more traffic? The cities you want to live are people centric not car centric.
        
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        November 17, 2023 7:42pm
  - Paulus
    
    Problem is that they use the maximum speed even in restricted roads and paths.
    
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    November 17, 2023 11:18am
    - david in Aus
      
      Are they breaking the speed limit? How about reflecting on the shit drivers we have in our midst. Those inattentive on their phones. Those wandering their two tonne machinery in and out of cycling lanes, not giving way, weaving in and out of traffic.
      
      We have shit cyclists and motorists, but which one will cause more damage?
      
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      November 17, 2023 11:26am
    - david in Aus
      
      The biggest problem is the Us and Them mentality. We need a culture of respect on the road. To remedy this every motorist should try cycling in rush hour, cycling in the gutter, and cars passing by illegally within 1.5 metres.
      That is why most bike commuters are male (90%), women are anxious because of the poor infrastructure.
      
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      November 17, 2023 11:33am
      - plc
        
        David, are you in Aus?
        
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        November 17, 2023 11:45am
      - david in Aus
        
        Does David-in-NZ make your feel better?
        I am not in Aus.
        
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        November 17, 2023 11:51am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        1.5 metres? What planet do you live on?
        Best come to NZ and see the shit skinny roads.
        
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        November 17, 2023 11:56am
      - david in Aus
        
        Exactly, most motorists don’t follow the guidelines.
        Try cycling on Great South Road from Penrose to Otahuhu, trucks are especially awful in respecting space.
        
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        November 17, 2023 12:10pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        David, you are not getting it. Let me help.
        For a truck and trailer to give 1.5M clearance, the truck would be facing oncoming traffic. Got it now?
        Class 5 License here.
        
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        November 17, 2023 12:51pm
      - david in Aus
        
        @steveotto. It is legal to overtake a cyclist crossing solid whites when it is safe. As a truck driver you should know that. You can’t cross the solid white line if you are overtaking a motor vehicle or animal drawn carriage.
        
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        November 17, 2023 1:13pm
      - david in Aus
        
        @steveotto. Thanks for making the point for me as a truck driver. A separate bike lane is safer, especially if a truck driver says it is impossible to pass appropriately in a shared lane
        
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        November 17, 2023 1:34pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        [Mod – stop calling people here trolls]
        
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        November 17, 2023 3:22pm
  - Tauhei Notts
    
    I think a pedesterian is one who walks home from a Presbyterian church service.
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:10pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Or carries his bike because there is no room on the road!//
      
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      November 17, 2023 3:25pm
      - Bridgenag
        
        Bikes should not be on the road. A total dangerous hazard in the country when it is impossible to pass. I friend has an electric bike and only goes on footpaths. High viz with bell
        
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        November 18, 2023 8:50am
krazykiwi

DPF, quite a bit of political activity in the USA right now. I wonder if Kiwi In America could be invited to supply a guest post or two? I always learn things from his contributions.
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November 17, 2023 8:23am
- Tom Hunter
  
  I’m amused by DPF’s determination to highlight Trump and ignore Biden, especially as the Democrat PTB are slowly ramping up the pressure to boot him in 2024. I did laugh at Biden calling Biden’s man Axelrod a “prick”, which the latter was vastly amused by.
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:48am
  - kowtow
    
    Biden’s just reffered to Xi as a dictator , Blinken apparently visibly winced .
    
    This follows him at the Vet Day ceremony wondering around lost again .
    
    The man’s got dementia .
    
    But the media pardy still suffers TDS.
    
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    November 17, 2023 11:03am
  - Tom Hunter
    
    Heh. And 12 minutes after my post…. a miracle.
    
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    November 17, 2023 11:09am
  - MCōs
    
    Trump sells more newspapers
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:09pm
Flossie

I’m over hearing that someone was/is a “star”. Quickly scanning news this morning I read about a Music Star, a Rugby Star, and a Media Star within about five minutes. I had actually heard of one of them and not for the reason they are touted as being a star.
Everyone who had minor success even once upon a time is now bestowed with the title Star.
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November 17, 2023 8:25am
- Damocles11
  
  Video killed the Radio Star.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:11am
  - Raphael
    
    will AI kill the video star?
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:51am
- MCōs
  
  “Everyone who had minor success even once upon a time is now bestowed with the title Star.”
  
  Jesus Christ Superstar
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:31am
  - Don Beckett
    
    God is not mocked.
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:37pm
    - MCōs
      
      Jesus Christ wasn’t God
      He was allegedly the son of God
      
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      November 17, 2023 1:04pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        Jesus Christ is God, and the Son of God – The Father, The Son & The Holy Spirit – The Holy Trinity.
        God is a trinitarian God – beyond our understanding, but so revealed through the scriptures & in Christ’s own words. Held in belief through Faith.
        
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        November 17, 2023 2:26pm
  - Ghost
    
    John Farnham was a good Jesus
    
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5woMZtClhI
    
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    November 17, 2023 1:19pm
    - Fuzzysnuggleduck
      
      John Farnham is (was?) a great vocalist, but JC has to be Ted Neeley.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rEVwwB3Iw0
      Here he is 14 years later than the 1990s Farnham performance – 40 years after the original movie production, in his 70s – and still tolerably hitting the notes; despite being ill during this particular performance.
      The back tracking is also more faithful to the original.
      Definitely preferred the version with the Ian Gillan-style screaming vocals the ‘The Voice”s style
      The original movie always brings me back to childhood. The final funky title track with Carl Anderson, damn that was great.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlOxUcTcUH0
      These day there would be fat backing dancers, ala Lizzo.
      
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      November 17, 2023 1:57pm
      - Ghost
        
        Here is Ted 2 months ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kafVDGP2H8A
        
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        November 17, 2023 2:09pm
- Dave
  
  Harry Secombe said decades ago something like, a star is anyone who has appeared on TV; a superstar is anyone who has shaken Lew Grade’s hand; a super-superstar is someone who has refused to shake Lew Grade’s hand.
  
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  November 17, 2023 1:16pm
- Jake Dee
  
  True, that’s why they invented the term “superstar”. Later we got “megastar”
  Grade inflation.
  
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  November 17, 2023 2:53pm
slightlyrighty

I like the term “Excess of Education”

I didn’t at first as I beleive that it is not possible to be educated to excess, but considering the statement, I realised what Kisin was trying to say.

It’s an extension of the Peter Principle where people are promoted beyond their ability. In this case, people are being educated beyond their ability to comprehend and examine.

That’s why we see so much of this reactionary type politics at University. Young people who are smart enough to read and repeat, but not experienced enough to examine, study and comprehend.
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November 17, 2023 8:28am
- Random T Person
  
  What’s sorely lacking in this age of readily available information is curiosity. And critical thinking. Not the same thing as education, not by a long shot. And I think the focus shouldn’t be on ‘education, education, education’, but curiosity and critical thinking. I reckon the pandemic showed up the educated vs the thinkers, and it was the tradies and other ordinary people who were doing the thinking, whereas the over-educated did as they were told to do, follow the manual, don’t question.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:17am
  - krazykiwi
    
    Agreed. If the only thing school did was to stoke curiosityand develop critical thinking the next generation of kids would be 1000 times better of than than today’s kids … an abused cohort who are treated as a Marxist blank-canvas.
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:47am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    The old adage is still true. Teach people HOW to think, not WHAT to think.
    
    Otherwise it’s indoctrination, not education.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:00am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Consider how many brain cells are used up when you learn something….
  
  I’m done with learning… preserving my brain cells for my dotage.
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:48am
RockyJ

I get the impression on social media that public servants are getting windy over the imminent takeover by a centre right government.

Example are:
• alarmist posts on instructions to take te Reo out of official communications
• a surge of publicity by the Human Rights Commission about the value of cogovernance and calls for peace in Palestine
• advertising by the Maori Health Authority on the dangers of smoking for Maori (and incidentally blaming Capt Cook for bringing the evil weed to our country).
• appeals to consider the difficulties redundant public servants will have to face.

These are all sudden and new occurrences over the last couple of weeks and impress me as a way to shore up bureaucrats in opposing the incoming government plus justifying the existence of redundant departments.
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November 17, 2023 8:30am
- Random T Person
  
  I saw some comment on Reddit from a public servant worried about their job coz Natz. My immediate thought was, well, if you are adding value, how could you possibly be concerned about job security?
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:18am
  - sirknz
    
    They are on Reddit and probably an active participant in the r/nz left wing echo chamber, they aren’t adding value to anything. The last time I was on Reddit my account had been blocked from posting on r/nz with no reason given. Probably had something to do with not buying in to their group delusion about how wonderful Labour was doing back in 2019.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:05am
    - nathie
      
      Amazing to look back at the years 2017-2021 where if anyone said anything bad about Ardern, those people were cancelled, boycotted or looked down on.
      
      Especially by the MSM as well as on online channels.
      
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      November 17, 2023 12:23pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Public Sector is over populated by 70% imo.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:36am
- John Loveridge
  
  I wouldn’t be at all concerned about the ability of the wheels of government to keep turning smoothly if most of the many thousands of seat-polishing civil employees accumulated since 2017 are sacked.
  
  Perhaps they could all be replaced by a few doctors and nurses?
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:37am
- Paulus
  
  Changes are afoot in Wellington – two of my family in good jobs, and well paid, have been told that they all have to apply for their jobs now.
  
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  November 17, 2023 11:20am
  - nathie
    
    Is that because Grant Robertson/Labour called for $millions of savings to be made in the public service a few weeks ago?
    
    Guess it would take that long for management to respond.
    
    Guess the likes of Stuffed/TV1/TV3 will (try to) forget that Labour instigated this …
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:27pm
Scooter

Very interesting interview on Reality Check Radio with Neville Munro about Scott Watson. A couple of points after listening to it, he basically accuses the police of accessories to murder as they didn’t follow up on eye witnesses sightings of Olivia and Ben on a ketch after they went missing. He also accuses the Judge of breaking the law in allowing the police to vet the jury and not allow anyone who had knowledge of boats. If the police and or judge are innocent will they charge him with defamation?

Also will be interesting to see what information he is sending to Rodney Hide, supposedly direct information from the people involved, gang involvement, drugs?

Scott Watson surely could not be kept in jail for the rest of his life (is he only granted parole if he admits he’s guilty?) In recent times when murderers are on home D, surely he has served more than what is necessary, 24 years, even if you believe he is guilty.

https://realitycheck.radio/neville-munro-longtime-advocate-raises-questions-around-the-scott-watson-case/
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November 17, 2023 8:36am
- imalwaysright
  
  Scooter
  Keeping someone in prison past their sentence because they do not admit guilt is wrong.
  The sentence was for the crime and he has served it.
  Continuing imprisonment is punishment for not believing the court was right .
  Therefore he is in prison indefinitely because of his belief of his innocence .
  How can that be justified .
  Is disagreeing with the court a crime.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:39am
  - Chuck Bird
    
    The sentence was life.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:55am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  One thing that always got me was, the water taxi driver said they guy with them had a 5 day growth of facial hair, photos at midnight at Furneaux Lodge showed Watson clean shaven at mid night
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:52am
  - Scooter
    
    Also the unshaven guy people identified was seen at the bar from 8pm and Scott Watson on a boat with others until 930.
    
    Another good point was that the media played a huge part in discrediting him from the start encouraged by the police. There was no way the jury were unbiased.
    
    This whole case stinks and like others before will eventually be uncovered. Not many crimes or cover ups remain so in NZ, it all comes out in the end.
    
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    November 17, 2023 11:00am
  - Fuzzysnuggleduck
    
    There are good rebuttals to all of this. I suggest looking at Ian Wishart’s online content.
    This is not like the Crewe murders. Scott Watson was a POS, witnessed by many people at the location, he IS the person that people recall there. He had the stubble if you look at the right pictures. This all took place in a place where boats don’t come and go (especially on New Year’s) without a photo or being noticed by more than one person.
    The water taxi driver was not even sure, and put a question mark on his own sketch (which you can see online) around how many masts there were. Note that the vessels are tied together in the dark, and the perception of lights on the masts was not something he even asserted at the time. The later media statements are not consistent with his initial statements, yet he became more certain in years later of what he saw….muse upon that, in the context of kids that were brought up that Peter Ellis molested them and years later as adults believe it due to the reinforcement of ‘memories’.
    The sketches made by Scott Watson found hidden in his cell are creepy as hell and both sadistic, mocking and disturbed. Look for those online too and read his own writing on the sketch.
    Character witnesses and people close to Scott talk of his oft stated rape and murder fantasties, and how he turned mundane conversations to that.
    He also had more of a record for violence and bad character than has been let on – again, the evidence of past brushes with the police are online.
    Sightings of his vessel and timelines which don’t fit into the well-known public narrative are detailed by Ian as well. I was happy to doubt the police and the verdict but I have come to the opposite conclusion over time. It is best to look at statements made closest to the events. If people take the time to read read read in detail rather than just the headlines and sound bytes you might well not see Scott as another Arthur Allan Thomas. He is not.
    The idea that the bodies are actually hidden somewhere on land is an interesting one, especially in the context of rechecking timelines and other witnesses not often mentioned by the MSM click-baits.
    
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    November 17, 2023 3:20pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Gerald Hope was the one directing the Police here there and everywhere, except where the bodies were.
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:40am
- Jake Dee
  
  It’s interesting to see the Scott Watson case heating up again but lets not get stuck on minor details and lose sight of the bigger picture.
  A murder case with no bodies is always going to be tricky but if ben and Olivia aren’t dead then where are they now?
  
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  November 17, 2023 3:02pm
Benedict Yu

I really like Ben Shapiro. However the Israel situation seems to be taking a toll on him. Getting into a twitter fight with your own employee from The Daily Wire seems a step too far.

https://www.mediaite.com/news/by-all-means-quit-ben-shapiro-replies-to-candace-owen-as-daily-wire-spat-escalates/

“‘Emotionally Unhinged’: Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens Get In Wild Fight After He Tells Her ‘By All Means’ Quit”
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November 17, 2023 8:46am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  This will continue. Neither of them are quitters. I like the speeches Candace Owens gives, especially about Blacks leaving the Plantation, and Fatherless homes. I follow her on Facebook. The Dems have been screwing Blacks over since the year dot, just for the vote.
  Ben Shapiro is good on a range of subjects. Really I don’t think they should be fighting in public. Both are above that. I wonder what set them off?
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:02am
  - Lenticular
    
    Candace Owens has expressed too much sympathy for the Palestinians and criticism of Israel for Shapiro.
    
    I have a bob each way on this one, leaning towards Shapiro.
    
    The things Owens said were ignorant and wrong (most notably, implying that Israel may commit a genocide).
    
    But OTOH it actually is true that Shapiro is entirely emotional about Israel and doesn’t seem to handle anyone having anything but a 100.000% rigidly pro-Israel view at any time.
    
    This is despite his repeated claim that his employees are free to have their own editorial stances on any issue. He makes a great song and dance about it but as soon as it involves Israel, it’s simply not true. The criticisms of him on those grounds are correct.
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:18am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Wasn’t Hillary Clinton taking political advice from the head of the KKK?
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:48am
  - Jake Dee
    
    Ben Shapiro is a dedicated Zionist. The current situation is going to be highly emotional for him. Everything is going to be dialed up to 11.
    
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    November 17, 2023 3:05pm
- NothingLeft
  
  My estimation of Ben has gone down. I generally agree with his statements on Israel and Hamas, and understand his frustration at those who are more equivocal in their support and condemnation for his ‘tribe’ and their mortal enemies. But he should non-the-less govern his emotions and language and keep it civil with colleagues.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:31am
  - imalwaysright
    
    NothingLeft
    
    Shapiro and Douglas Murray, along with others who were known as proponents of freedom of speech, have shown uncharacteristic
    intolerance of those people who question the Israeli side.
    
    They cite Voltaire and their die in a ditch allegiance to freedom until someone says something that offends them.
    
    The right to be offended is clearly one they don’t apply to themselves .
    
    They both seem to be good people and definitely do more good than harm, but they have damaged their own credibility .
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:19am
    - Scott
      
      I can’t speak for Ben Shapiro, although he is Jewish himself and probably feels this very deeply. But I do think we can be sympathetic to Douglas Murray who is in Gaza and is seeing first hand what is happening. He has seen the footage of the atrocities that Hamas committed against Israeli families on 7 October. Like many people he is shocked and appalled at what has happened and is still happening.
      
      I guess it’s hard to keep spouting the “both sides are at fault” narrative, when one side is deliberately killing babies.
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:44am
      - Ra Henare
        
        Both sides are deliberately killing babies.
        Anyone who thinks the Israelis dont know they are killing babies doesnt understand the use of bombs in warfare.
        
        Unfortunately Douglas Murray is milking the Israeli story(he has seen the footage!) without reporting on the babies blown to bits by Israeli bombs.
        
        Which he could see by visiting bombed areas in Gaza.
        
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        November 17, 2023 6:37pm
    - Jake Dee
      
      Good points, the John Stuart Mill bit “he who only knows his side of the argument knows little of that” keeps coming back to me.
      
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      November 17, 2023 3:07pm
    - Fuzzysnuggleduck
      
      The Douglas Murray part is not right – he gave very good replies while live with Piers Morgan, and in the context of how Hitchens’ might have reconciled freedom of speech limitations to calls to Jihad made on Armistice day in the context of the cenotaph.
      Protests can be allowed to go ahead, but they might sometimes need to make way or be separated out.
      A bit like the Trans and the TERFs thing – go ahead, but only 1 can operate on the same space at the same time.
      Anyway, I listened to Murray responding to all this, and he made reasoned and generally coherent rebuttals to why he didn’t think that, as per the tenuous claim, the “WW2 veterans went to war” precisely so that Palestinian supporters can call for Jihad on the street.
      In the context of the West, and freedoms, you don’t have to tolerate intolerance. These mass movements are less like walking with placards more like a violent cancerous underbelly flexing its muscle.
      And if I was really going to get philosophical, because I can’t express myself or do justice to precisely what Murray said, when it comes down to it, Islamist and pan-Muslim tribalism within the West in particular should be resisted for its own merit. Letting those that hate all our Western freedoms draw on freedom as a defence is something I loath. They offer nothing other than an eroding of all that is good and converting the West into the repressive and backward shitholes which they came from.
      It goes beyond being offended, and more like a hint of real danger. ‘The strange death of Europe”, and Milo said long ago ‘Western Europe is lost’.
      Murray did also say that being a hypocrite is not the worst accusation that can be made in the world. People can change their positions, or think something different to what they thought in the past. In this case – when it comes to hosting jihadis or Hamas leaders on welfare in the UK, or what is being said inside Mosques – we need to push back.
      
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      November 17, 2023 3:37pm
slightlyrighty

So much discussion about the length of the negotiations for the new Government, and nobody seems to think about why….

Previous negotiations were simple. Winston goes to each party, gives a list of demands and goes with the party that gives him the most things on the list.

It’s different now. A short negotiation would have been Winston turning up with a list and Luxon rubber stamping it….

I think what’s happening is Winston showed up with his list, and for the first time, got a counter offer. The negotiations are no longer about what the major party will give Winston, but what compromise Winston and NZ First will accept, and that will most certainly not be everything on his list.
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November 17, 2023 8:48am
kowtow

Where are the fact checkers .

This is total nonsense from newshub ;

‘Al Shifa Hospital has been under constant attack by Israeli forces with hundreds killed on the site and hundreds more trapped inside.’

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/11/israel-hamas-war-former-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-wants-world-leaders-to-remember-our-shared-common-humanity.html
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November 17, 2023 8:56am
- NothingLeft
  
  was video of a walk through by IDF yesterday showing some of the weapons caches and go-bags of Hamas fighters that they found at the hospital (MRI facility). Also clear evidence that they were holding some of the children and female hostages in the hospital.
  
  Fuck em.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:34am
  - MCōs
    
    I’m skeptical of any videos the IDF produce
    I’m not saying it’s not authentic, but that sort of stuff has been faked since movies were invented to make the other side look like rat bags.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:10am
    - I remember when
      
      I’m skeptical of any videos…….
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:35am
    - Tom Hunter
      
      Given the huge amount of video and pictures taken with Hama’s own GoPro cameras and phones the real question is why what the IDF has shown about the hospital tunnels have to be faked.
      
      In other words, based on what Hamas boasted about doing on October 7 and how they did it, the Al Shifa stuff is small beer and merits merely an “of course” shrug of the shoulders.
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:45am
    - kowtow
      
      Right this very minute the IDF are furiously building tunnels in the Negev desert with mock up of Shifa hospital in the background in order to film and discredit Hamas ( and all their apologists) .
      
      Very shortly theIDF will release these vidoes in a pure deception / propaganda exercise , assisted by their hi tech AI people.( afterall we all know how cunning and clever they are )
      
      Just wait , coming real soon , from a movie studio the likes of which would make Hollywood blush .
      
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      November 17, 2023 11:37am
- Benedict Yu
  
  It is astonishing that Harvard University employs Jacinda.
  
  She unloads the usual word waffle:
  
  “Ardern stated the “only way to find long-term peaceful resolution to difficult and complex conflicts is if you find a way to end the violence and grief in order to give yourself the space to then have those conversations”.
  
  “”How would I have reacted as a leader? I simply would have reminded everyone to remember our shared common humanity”‘
  
  OK so if Jacinda had been the PM of Israel on 7 October she would have “reminded everyone to remember our shared common humanity.” 🙁
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:37am
  - Taieri
    
    What a shame she didn’t remember “our shared common humanity” when she stopped mothers from burying their sons or wives from burying their husbands…
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:42am
    - krazykiwi
      
      Or locked sick, desperate New Zealanders in other countries, forcing them to become criminal over stayers, while welcoming hip-hop DJ’s, children’s entertainers, and mountain bike competitors into our country.
      
      Ardern was and remains the source of my enduring disdain on account of her wicked cruelty.
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:05am
      - kowtow
        
        ‘mountain bike competitors ‘
        
        No David Clark wasn’t competing , he was on his own.
        
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        November 17, 2023 1:49pm
    - I remember when
      
      Taieri:
      And ignored a considerable amount of evidence advising of the lack of danger from outdoors contact.
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:32am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      or neighbours checking on the welfare of each other…
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:51am
  - John Loveridge
    
    Ardern’s woeful lack of knowledge of world history, particularly Middle Eastern history, and human behaviour in general, is on painful display here.
    
    Because she is both dim-witted and self-absorbed, and has an eager audience that exhibits the same traits, she truly believes her own contemptible, trite waffle.
    
    That Harvard University, a centre of intellectual excellence for nearly four centuries, takes her seriously is an alarming sign of the decline of the academy.
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:47am
    - ClanMcleod
      
      Read my post upthread in response to krazykiwi’s post about the speech by Konstantin Kisen.
      
      That will go some way to explaining why higher education seems to be in such dire straits currently.
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:06am
    - I remember when
      
      Did Harvard University take her seriously?
      Or, did they recognise the growing problems created by our acceptance of PR without indepth analysis?
      If it looks the part and sounds about right, is female, young and shiny……..
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:28am
      - Don Beckett
        
        Harvard University is NOT the highly acclaimed institute of learning that it was 20 – 30 years ago – it has gone woke & ideological mainly leftward.
        
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        November 17, 2023 12:51pm
    - Fuzzysnuggleduck
      
      Be Kind.
      
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      November 17, 2023 3:45pm
  - Albie
    
    Reply to Benedict: 9:37am-Words cannot describe how much I despise our ex pm!
    Instead of spewing out a lot of virtuous nonsense on a subject she knows very little about, why doesn’t she don a tea towel and pay for a ticket to Gaza to repeat her words of wisdom to Hamas face to face!
    It would be the one and only occasion I would go out of my way to watch her on tv again.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:40am
  - kowtow
    
    From the regime that did more than any other in the short history of NZ to set one race against another .
    
    One set of citizens against the other ( based on alleged medical status)
    
    Or who emptied the prisons setting the criminal class against the law abiding .
    
    City against farmer .
    
    Tenant and landlord .
    
    and there’ll be more besides .
    
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    November 17, 2023 11:48am
    - nathie
      
      And enabled the Ram Raiders.
      
      Including for the same kids/people to do it again … and do it again … and do it again …. and do it again as the only “consequences” was a “wrap around” cuddle and KFC if they were uncooperative!
      
      I bet even a “telling off” was banned in case it infringed their human rights and made them relive the hurts of “colonialism” or such other wokey tosh!
      
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      November 17, 2023 12:39pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    So why doesn’t Ardern say how to end the violence and grief?
    Or she does not know so talks shit?
    “remember our shared common humanity” is not going to stop animals from beheading babies is it?
    Typical of the last six years – utter rubbish that nobody can make head or tail of.
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:12pm
  - Jake Dee
    
    Sounds like the standard response from a Communications Major. Pure symbolism.
    
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    November 17, 2023 3:10pm
  - Ra Henare
    
    BY, sorry to interupt your fine piece.
    
    reminded everyone to remember our shared common humanity.” 🙁
    
    Of course the lack of shared common humanity didnt start on Oct 7th.
    
    That was just another tragedy in a long list of tragedies on both sides due to a lack of shared common humanity on both sides.
    
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    November 17, 2023 6:41pm
Maggie Pie

Just received a number of emails from our Insurance Company updating the various Policies we have with them.

First thing I noticed, the covering-letters no longer begin with ‘Kia Ora xxxxx’….or sign off ‘Nga Mihi’

It’s only taken them 6 years to finally wake up to all this sh*t. LOL!!
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November 17, 2023 9:04am
- alex Masterley
  
  I am waiting for the he/him she/her bollocks that appears on all sorts of correspondence to go.
  That will be a red letter day.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:10am
  - Taieri
    
    I am waiting for the he/him she/her bollocks that appears on all sorts of correspondence to go
    ————
    
    I ignore any correspondence containing personal pronouns regardless of whom it is coming from.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:52am
- John Loveridge
  
  Has the election result woken these institutions up to the fact that most people abhor the Maorification of everything?
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:50am
  - Paul Marsden
    
    And something that I believe, Luxon has been unable to grasp.
    
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    November 17, 2023 11:38am
- rouppe
  
  Maybe that’s to distract you from the premium rise. I got one recently for a house that has never been damaged in any earthquake or flood, and the premiums went up 27%
  
  TWENTY SEVEN percent premium rise, for what?
  
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  November 17, 2023 3:01pm
Suze Wainwright

I distinctly remember Thomas Coughlan gleefully tweeting anything he possibly could to ridicule the National Party about during the recent election campaign.

Then one day, he finally tweeted something about Te Pati Maori’s economic policy (to do with their view on exports – i.e., that TPM didn’t believe in the need for them) and that he found that ‘concerning.’

One can only hope that journalists such as Coughlan seriously interrogate Te Pati Maori and the Green Party of Aotearoa/New Zealand about exactly what they would demand to be part of a future coalition government. (At least do that rather than concentrate solely on cheapskate, har dee har har ‘gotcha’ moments with the incoming government).
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November 17, 2023 9:15am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Yes, snd it’s the same with these people saying we can’t be globalists, what ever that means, but if it means selling to the world then we have no alternative, we are a small population the size of Sydney, we are too small to survive otherwise, places like the states that do try and stand on their own two feet at times can simply survive supplying the country their selves, but it simply does not work in a small nation
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:57am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    We have to be global in trade, we’re too far away from most things to be fully independent.
    
    The resistance to ‘globalism’ isn’t about trade, it’s about not wanting to be governed or directed by unelected globalist bodies, particularly those who are predominantly funded by individuals with massive wealth.
    
    We’re talking in particular about the WEF, UN and WHO. There are others. If they get their way it will be the end of democracy and the beginning of a nightmare era for the vast majority.
    
    If you think the covid restrictions were bad, this will be next level bad.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:11am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      They say Luxon is a globalist, yet I have heard hime say before the UN don’t run this country, it’s pathetic saying he is a globalist, they lose all credibility when speaking this crap
      
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      November 17, 2023 12:38pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

It seems the pink terror was not confronted, just scared. You make your bed, you lie in it!

https://nznewsessentials.com/we-are-not-making-excuses-for-the-people-who-were-nasty-but-didnt-siouxsie-wiles-provoke-them/
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November 17, 2023 9:20am
- Benedict Yu
  
  This is a good point:
  
  “There were dire consequences to many from the lockdown measures she advocated. There’s no indication Wiles had any sympathy for those people. Instead, it seems, she felt she knew best.””
  
  She became a highly visible figure on an issue that divided the country more than any other in living memory. Nobody forced her to do it, including her employer. She can’t say what she did was part of her job. She became political, tweeting how pleased she was that Labour won the 2020 election.
  
  She is still blinded by her certainty that her every utterance was correct.
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:44am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    BY – I would contend that the only thing Wiles is blinded by right now, is the abject terror that she was wrong about everything she promoted and that she knows (and always knew) she was wrong about everything she promoted.
    
    Her concern is that the truth is now becoming apparent to most people. She’s fears being caught out.
    
    Like the NZ parliamentary MPs almost 100% refusal to talk about the negative outcomes of covid policies. Also their refusal to acknowledge, let alone investigate the causes of the alarming increase in excess all cause mortality.
    
    There is a dawning realisation among many that things aren’t quite right. The likes of Wiles can smell the change in the wind.
    This is what she is worried about. She KNOWS she was wrong.
    Her biggest problem is that more people now also know she was wrong.
    
    Same thing applies to rest of the ‘experts’ who bombarded us with their ‘science’ on an almost daily basis. The truth comes out eventually. This is what they all fear.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:19am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Don’t forget Shaun ‘Handy’ Hendy. He was on about $2million a year to give us his pearls of wisdom courtesy of his Winxp excel spreadsheet.
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:41am
      - ClanMcleod
        
        imalwaysright – yes. The list of perpetrators is long. Here’s my top 12.
        
        Jacinda Ardern
        Ashley Bloomfield
        Chris Hipkins
        Michael Baker
        Shaun Hendy
        Siousxie Wiles
        Rod Jackson
        Helen Petoussis Harris
        Nikki Turner
        Michael Plank
        Nick Wilson
        
        Other than the politicians, note how many of them are connected to Otago or Auckland University. That’s a major concern.
        
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        November 17, 2023 11:04am
      - ClanMcleod
        
        The links to those NZ universities may be explained by the fact that the Ardern government ~~funded~~ bribed Auckland University/Te Pūnaha Matatini to the tune of many millions to produce the amazing models that supported the bullshit narrative.
        
        https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2110/S00081/why-is-sean-hendys-modelling-group-getting-6m-for-advice-treasury-is-paying-30k-for-elsewhere.htm
        
        Also, Otago University’s ‘Infection Group’ is heavily funded by The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation and Gate’s other project, GAVI.
        
        Interesting to note, when I tried to find the link to the ‘Infection Group’ funding page on the Otago website, the page was ‘missing’. Quelle surprise….
        
        Thankfully we have the ‘Wayback Machine’ for when these ‘mishaps’ occur.
        
        https://web.archive.org/web/20211026152235/https://www.otago.ac.nz/infection-group/funding/
        
        Also, the dodgy $16.5 million government contract to train vaccinators made it’s way to Otago and Auckland universities, among other entities connected to Auckland University.
        
        The conflict and the Covid contract: The $16.5m health contract and the spousal relationship that raised red flags
        
        A contract for the work was signed in February 2021, and it contained a considerable evaluation component, worth more than $2m the Weekend Herald understands. Health New Zealand (Te Whatu Ora) declined to release the value under the provisions of the Official Information Act (OIA), citing commercial sensitivity.
        
        Most of that evaluation work was ultimately subcontracted by the University of Auckland to the University of Otago.
        A second subcontract went to the National Institute for Health Innovation (NIHI), also housed at the University of Auckland. All of the evaluation work was overseen by Otago’s Dr Tony Dowell, who, additionally and as a direct contractor to IMAC, helped shape the evaluation requirements decided upon in the first place. IMAC’s medical director, Dr Nikki Turner, is married to Dowell.
        
        Quite the incestuous money go round.
        
        Paywalled.
        
        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/the-conflict-and-the-covid-contract-the-165m-health-contract-and-the-spousal-relationship-that-raised-red-flags/4BINFLXUYBHAZCSAA3RKY4IGFE/
        
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        November 17, 2023 12:10pm
- John Loveridge
  
  Wiles is very sanctimonious and fond of the sound of her own voice. She eagerly grabbed the opportunity to thrust herself to the front of the discourse on a very divisive and controversial matter which has had serious repercussions for the nation. That she has made enemies should come as no surprise to her, but in classic narcissistic fashion she seeks to have others punished for the negative outcomes of her own actions.
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:00am
- I remember when
  
  To be fair to Suzie,
  nobody could have seen that coming,
  most could not see that coming,
  hardly anyone could see that coming,
  Siouxsie could not see that coming.
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:13am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    ‘I’m bored, let’s go for a swim, fuck everyone else.’
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:22pm
- Tom Hunter
  
  You all might appreciate my recent series of posts on the Lockdowns:
  setup 2020-21
  
  aftermath 2021-22
  
  now 2023
  
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  November 17, 2023 11:05am
mikenmildagain

[Mod – take your crap elsewhere]
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November 17, 2023 9:22am
- Ghost
  
  So?
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:28am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    What?
    
    2 20
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    November 17, 2023 9:33am
    - Jack5
      
      Tim Costley explained the background of the video in a TV interview three years ago.
      
      It was a joke video among bored military men, made at a dull overseas post during his 20 years in the Air Force. It ended up on line.
      
      An Internet peccadillo, poster Milky. That’s all.
      
      The TV interview:
      
      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/01/tim-costley-goes-from-air-force-rocker-to-national-candidate-for-taki.html
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:13am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        For those bemused by the moderator’s intervention, it was a harmless reference to Costley’s joke video being highlighted atm on Wikipedia’s ‘Did you know?’ section.
        
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        November 17, 2023 10:20am
      - Ghost
        
        A change to his wiki that was done yesterday, how strange you know about it so fast
        
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        November 17, 2023 10:31am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Ghost. it was featured on the Wikipedia home page, as I noted.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
      
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      November 17, 2023 10:33am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Exactly Ghost! If it had been a goat we might have reason to be concerned 😀
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:34am
  - Swifty
    
    Excellent!
    
    A history of making sheep fornication jokes should be a mandatory requirement for our politicians in my view.
    
    As the Left has insisted on swearing fealty and slavish devotion to the Treaty in order to get civil service roles – I would greatly hope National and ACT would now do the same for sheep shagging humour. Tell some good sheep rooting jokes at your interview or you won’t get a look in.
    
    The world would be a better place.
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:45am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      The funny thing is Aussie have 10 times the sheep we do and they always had us on
      
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      November 17, 2023 9:58am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        It was always the ratio of humans to sheep that made NZ a ‘pervert’s paradise’, to use Billy Connolly’s expression.
        
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        November 17, 2023 10:22am
      - Jack5
        
        The “sh-” alliteration is important for the vocal punch of the joke/insult.
        
        Milky, Mikenmild, Mikenmildagain, Muttonhead …. you get the picture.😃
        
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        November 17, 2023 10:35am
    - Swifty
      
      I’ll start.
      
      It is true that New Zealanders root sheep and prefer the ewes back legs in the gumboots technique so they don’t run away, but the Aussies however prefer face to face so that they can kiss them at the same time.
      
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      November 17, 2023 1:30pm
      - Jack5
        
        Not just New Zealanders are the butt of sheep jokes.
        
        Here’s one from the Internet:
        
        The condom was first invented by a Welshman by using a sheep’s intestine.
        
        The English later improved it by removing the intestine from the sheep first.
        
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        November 17, 2023 2:18pm
      - Colville
        
        Isn’t it why the Scots invented kilts..? coz their sheep could hear a zipper being lowered and would run away..!
        
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        November 17, 2023 4:58pm
Maggie Pie

I hate gossip, but according to one of the girls from tennis, Kiri’s old squeeze Mani Dunlop is the leading contender to become Chief-of-Staff for Te Maori Pardy.
Apparently, Kiri was approached for comment but has not responded to messages.

You heard it here first.
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November 17, 2023 9:26am
- MCōs
  
  Te Pāti Māori
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:53am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Not where we live Cossie 😀
    
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    November 17, 2023 9:56am
    - Don Beckett
      
      I thought it was ‘The Maori Party’ to 85% of Kiwis.
      
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      November 17, 2023 1:01pm
      - alex Masterley
        
        I call it the “T Party”. That works as well as anything else.
        
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        November 17, 2023 1:16pm
  - Benedict Yu
    
    In my experience, English speakers refer to it as “The Maori Party”.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:05am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Maggie wrote it in ‘Jacindaspeak’
      
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      November 17, 2023 12:26pm
      - nathie
        
        Did Willie have to whisper in her ear what to call them by chance?
        
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        November 17, 2023 12:46pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Was she not working for TPM during the campaign? Asking for one of the boys at tennis 😝
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:00am
Lenticular

A challenge to the world view of secular classical liberals:

We read a lot at the moment about the Left abandoning Enlightenment values of reason, limited government, freedom of thought and conscience, etc.

All of the observations about the Left are true, but crediting the Enlightenment with the good things the Left hates is wrong. The Enlightenment giving us liberty has been repeated in schools so often that most people, even at KB, take it for granted, but it’s not true.

The Enlightenment was a cover band. All its best bits came from the Reformation and at most were put into practice more consistently.

James Madison in a letter in 1821 said that religious liberty came from Martin Luther’s thought:

“[the American model of religious liberty] illustrates the excellence of a system which, by a due distinction, to which the genius and courage of Luther led the way, between what is due to Caesar and what is due God, best promotes the discharge of both obligations.”

Martin Luther wrote in “On Civil Government”:

“God has ordained the two governments: the spiritual, which by the Holy Spirit under Christ makes Christians and pious people; and the secular, which restrains the unchristian and wicked so that they are obliged to keep the peace outwardly… The laws of worldly government extend no farther than to life and property and what is external upon earth. For over the soul God can and will let no one rule but himself. Therefore, where temporal power presumes to prescribe laws for the soul, it encroaches upon God’s government and only misleads and destroys souls.”

and

“We are to be subject to governmental power and do what it bids, as long as it does not bind our conscience but legislates only concerning outward matters…. But if it invades the spiritual domain and constrains the conscience, over which God only must preside and rule, we should not obey it at all but rather lose our necks. Temporal authority and government extend no further than to matters which are external and corporeal.”

So why does every school child learn that John Locke came up with this stuff? It’s not true.

Anyone interested in considering this should read about the Two Kingdoms Doctrine or read On Civil Government.
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November 17, 2023 9:32am
- Swifty
  
  Please explain what you mean about the spiritual domain.
  
  What exactly is it? And how do we know?
  
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  November 17, 2023 9:51am
  - Lenticular
    
    That’s in the quote from Luther, not my terminology, but refers to Christianity’s core business: questions of ultimate right and wrong, and the existence and character of God.
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:01pm
    - Swifty
      
      The existence and character of (the Christian) God?
      
      Oh that’s easy.
      
      The most murderous, vengeful, megalomaniacal, wasteful, barbaric, capricious fictional character ever invented.
      
      A quick critical reading of The Bible will confirm all I have written.
      
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      November 17, 2023 1:24pm
      - Lenticular
        
        Oh, you want to trot out stock standard atheist talking points rather than discussing the origins of our civil liberties?
        
        How amazingly unsurprising, online atheists never like discussing the poisonous fruit of their silly beliefs.
        
        Re: the core argument, I bet you’ve never even read the Bible through once. You haven’t, have you? Be honest. I have. Quite a few times now.
        
        God is great, and one of the many proofs of the pudding is comparing Christian societies to atheist societies in any conparable era.
        
        You guys are at about 0/90 for producing decent societies; every single atheist state has been a human rights nightmare. Yes, including non-communist ones like Revolutionary France.
        
        BTW: An omniscient, infallible, eternal God absolutely should be a dictator. For the same reason you don’t allow the ants in your garden to decide how to run the house.
        
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        November 17, 2023 1:39pm
      - Swifty
        
        “….discussing the poisonous fruit of their silly beliefs.”
        
        Your the one with ‘beliefs’ – I go where the evidence and facts lead me.
        
        “An omniscient, infallible, eternal God absolutely should be a dictator.”
        
        Except for the one tiny flaw in your argument – such a being doesn’t exist. Well, at least the one that meddles in human affairs and tells us not to jerk off that is.
        
        Choose to be a slave to an imaginary super-being if you like mate, but leave me out of it.
        
        And I have read the Bible. As a kid I was forced to by people like you. People like you who filled my head with all sorts of stories and make believe and presented them to me as fact.
        
        They did me a grave disservice.
        
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        November 17, 2023 2:12pm
      - Swifty
        
        Oh and sorry, I should have responded to your question about the origin of our civil liberties.
        
        Yes, very happy to.
        
        And let me start by volunteering that I’m aware of many Christians who led the charge over the centuries. They, Christians, have made an enormous contribution to where we are now and the lives we enjoy – as well as having committed some of the most unpardonable sins and atrocities along the way.
        
        By the way, in my own family there is a long, long history of Christianity driving good works and the very best of intentions towards their fellow men and women.
        
        That however doesn’t say one single thing about the existence of a god. Not one. Nor that those people were somehow divinely inspired. They may have thought they were, but that is something different.
        
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        November 17, 2023 2:42pm
      - Lenticular
        
        Hang on a second: You’re claiming you were forced to read the entire Bible as a child? I call BS. Not even the JWs or other cults do that.
        
        Which books have you actually read? As opposed to reading snippets by atheist apologists?
        
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        November 17, 2023 3:23pm
      - Ghost
        
        Bull. I had friends who were forced to read the bible as kids.
        
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        November 17, 2023 3:32pm
      - Swifty
        
        I see you openly me a liar, and without any evidence whatsoever – you don’t know me from Adam.
        
        I’ve only ever been called a liar once before on Kiwiblog and guess what that was over? Whether I had read the Bible as a kid, but not by someone with your username. Was that you with a different alias?
        
        Thanks for revealing your character to us so fully and openly.
        
        You debate dishonestly.
        
        You’re full of it pal.
        
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        November 17, 2023 5:08pm
      - Lenticular
        
        @Swifty:
        A simple question, that would have eliminated all this back and forth:
        
        Have you ever read the Bible through? Yes / no?
        
        For all your complaints about me, you haven’t actually just declared that you have. Be honest. Have you? Yes or no?
        
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        November 17, 2023 8:23pm
      - RichardX
        
        A dishonest Christian who believes he knows everything about you. Not surprised.
        
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        November 17, 2023 8:39pm
      - Ghost
        
        I think you are wasting your time Swifty, this person is so up themself they can’t comprehend anything outside of their own very small reality.
        
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        November 17, 2023 9:20pm
    - Lenticular
      
      Btw: When a movement’s claim is that it’s rational, sensible, based on facts and logic, but then it results in mass murder in 80+ cases whenever it’s in government, it actually does undermine that claim.
      
      In the same way, if you claim that Christianity is completely irrational, evidence free, and follows a deeply immoral God, but Christian societies keep turning out well, it actually does undermine that claim.
      
      It doesn’t prove God, but it does destroy those two specific claims, especially the first one.
      
      Hey, you like logic:
      Why are atheists the single most left wing religious voting bloc in the USA? Pew has 80% of them voting for the left since 2008.
      
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      November 17, 2023 3:35pm
      - RichardX
        
        Show me a government that ruled on atheistic principles. You can’t because they don’t exist.
        
        The only thing atheists have in common is that they don’t believe in gods.
        
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        November 17, 2023 8:42pm
    - Lenticular
      
      @Ghost
      No, you almost certainly didn’t. You very likely had friends who had to read sections of the Pentateuch, the Gospels, and snippets of the rest. Try asking them how many of the 66+ books they read. You’ll get a number less than 10.
      
      The number of children who read the entire Bible is basically nil.
      
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      November 17, 2023 3:39pm
      - Ghost
        
        Actually I did. I even had one friend who would take his bible to primary school and read it at lunch time instead of playing with the rest of us because that is what his parents wanted him to do. You have no idea of what other people were made to do, so stop pretending you do
        
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        November 17, 2023 3:48pm
      - Lenticular
        
        @Ghost
        Sure, and at a child’s reading pace it’d take multiple years to finish.
        
        Really, virtually no child reads Malachi. Or Haggai. Or Job. Or Chronicles. Or the Pauline epistles.
        
        I know many families that actually do push Bible reading hard. None of them would expect a child to read the whole thing. It’s 50% bigger than the entire Lord of the Rings, with a way higher difficulty in most sections.
        
        I’m aware that it’s usually not done to deny others’ anecdotes, but really, a little critical appraisal is in order here. The chance of you knowing multiple such children? Nope. Not buying it.
        A children’s or teenager’s version, sure.
        
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        November 17, 2023 4:44pm
      - Ghost
        
        The sad part is you actually believe what you are saying and actually think you are so all knowing that you know what people have and haven’t read. And actually I had a lot of religious friends growing up, some I still know and who because of how their parents forced it on them as kids abounded it the moment they left home.
        
        Instead of pretending you know everything you should try to actually realise you don’t. You are so up yourself in thinking your way is the only way that when people tell you something happened you want to argue it didn’t.
        
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        November 17, 2023 5:21pm
      - Swifty
        
        Well said Ghost.
        
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        November 17, 2023 5:09pm
      - Lenticular
        
        @Ghost On other topics, you’re pretty reasonable.
        
        As you still know these people, why don’t you just ask them if they read the whole thing?
        
        Because tbh, it’s not normally a credible claim that you know multiple people who read through an adult level, 1000 page book as children, or even that you happen to know with any degree of surety if they did or not.
        
        Go ask them, then tell me your results. I’ll believe you (really). But tbh, they are going to settle the argument by surprising you and shaking an assumption you’ve been carrying around with you.
        
        On the offchance they do say yes, do ask them how old they were, for context.
        
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        November 17, 2023 8:30pm
      - Ghost
        
        Yeah, I like my friends, I’m not going to ring any up and say there is some twit on kiwiblog that doesn’t believe how strict your parents were with your bible studies.
        
        You actually need to get over yourself and stop being a dick. Two people have told you the same thing now and all you can do is pretend you know better and it can’t be right. You don’t know how other people lived their lives, you don’t know a damn thing outside of your own experiences, grow up and stop pretending you know better than others.
        
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        November 17, 2023 8:59pm
- kiwikidsnz
  
  If God’s the answer you’re probably asking the wrong question.
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:10am
  - Lenticular
    
    The suicide of the West within a generation of abandoning God still won’t make you wonder if it was a good idea, huh?
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:12pm
- rjay
  
  Lol. School children learning philosophy!
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:23am
  - Lenticular
    
    First year pol sci students are just about children in my book 😉
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:08pm
- Jake Dee
  
  You should read some Curtis Yarvin AKA Mencius Moldbug. He makes a convincing case that secular progressivism is the direct descendant of protestant Puritanism.
  https://www.unqualified-reservations.org/2007/09/how-dawkins-got-pwned-part-1/
  
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  November 17, 2023 3:16pm
  - Lenticular
    
    I never understood the Moldbug fans and this one doesn’t help, imho.
    
    The part where he acknowledges but then handwaves away the fact that fundamentalists are anything but antinomians after saying antinomianism is a fundamental characteristic of progressivism makes the whole argument pretty ludicrous.
    
    I’d also point out wokeness looks very much the same in formerly Catholic countries as in formerly Protestant countries.
    
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    November 17, 2023 3:44pm
  - Lenticular
    
    But I forgot to say thank you for an interesting contribution. The idea of a parasitic memeplex is quite fun and maybe even accurate.
    
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    November 17, 2023 4:47pm
Maggie Pie

Is it true, that in the last 6 years, nearly a THIRD of this country’s working-age population is now on some sort of government benefit?

Source: Kerry Woodham.
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November 17, 2023 9:59am
- NothingLeft
  
  It’s an inevitable consequence of women voting their preference to compel others to financially support their lifestyles come hell or high water – state as replacement for husbands/families/close communities. It will only ever get worse and eventually lead to death of democracy with repressive authoritarian takeover like venezuela.
  
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  November 17, 2023 11:03am
- rouppe
  
  “Some sort of government benefit” includes:
  * job seeker
  * sickness benefit
  * DPB
  * Accommodation supplement
  * WFF
  * Family tax credit
  * In work tax credit
  
  There is a long list of payments available, and that doesn’t include the “one off” emergency payments.
  
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  November 17, 2023 2:54pm
  - Wayne Mapp
    
    rouppe,
    
    The last three on your list are really tax credits for those in work and who have dependent children. That probably covers around 1 million families or nearly a third of those between 18 and 65. Every tax system in the OECD would have some mechanism like that.
    
    The real test is the numbers who basically get their income from the state without working.
    
    There are about 3.5 million people aged 18 to 65.
    
    About 2 million are in the work force and pay tax to a greater or lesser degree.
    
    Around half a million don’t work, but don’t receive any benefit from the government. These are mostly, though not exclusively, women at home raising children.
    
    Nearly half a million are full time students, most of whom get a student allowance.
    
    The actual full time beneficiaries are about half a million. There are three categories. The unemployed, those who are sick or have a disability, and those who are on the DPB (solo parents).
    
    So realistically 1 in 7 of those aged 18 to 65 are in receipt of a full time benefit. There will be quite a few low income workers who also get the accommodation supplement.
    
    Do all the groups who get some form of benefit add up to 70%? Probably yes if you include the family credit of tax for working families, but that mostly results in a reduced tax rate on the family income.
    
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    November 17, 2023 5:21pm
    - artemisia
      
      “Quite a few” getting Accommodation Supplement – that would be just under half a million households including other housing support but mostly AS. I guess that is “quite a few”. September 2023 numbers from HUD.
      
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      November 17, 2023 6:28pm
I remember when

The NY Times reports that congenital syphilis has become more than 10 times as common over the past decade, the CDC states.
More than 3700 cases of congenital syphilis were reported in 2022.
It caused 231 stillbirths and 51 infant deaths.
The number were rising even before the pandemic, but in the past few years, a drop in routine preventative care, a shift to more telehealth appointments for prenatal care, and reduced clinic hours may have exacerbated the situation.
In 2021, there were 177,000 caes of syphilis, 1.6 million cases of chlamydia and more than 700,00 cases of gonorrhea.
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November 17, 2023 10:00am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Looks like the same thing is happening here.
  
  https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases/be-safe-get-tested-syphilis-increase-sparks-concern-life-threatening-impact-unborn-babies
  
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  November 17, 2023 10:08am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    So the MoH is publicly raising concerns about the relatively small number of cases of syphilis in NZ.
    
    There were 487 cases of infectious syphilis in 2022, with the majority (289) reported in the second half of 2022. This compares with 449 cases in 2021.
    
    But I can find nothing on their website regarding the alarming rise in excess all cause mortality?
    
    The OECD reports for September 2023 and the first week of October, records there were 577 excess deaths up 17% on the long term average. That is a rate of 155 additional deaths per week above what you might expect for the time of year. Last year (2022) for the corresponding period there were 339 excess deaths, 68 per week, up 10% on the long term average. Even this figure was a record. 2023 is 70% higher than that.
    
    https://hatchardreport.com/alarming-acceleration-in-new-zealand-excess-deaths/
    
    155 excess deaths per week but the MoH is apparently more concerned about less than 10 cases of syphilis per week?
    
    I think they might have their priorities skewed.
    
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    November 17, 2023 10:42am
    - krazykiwi
      
      I work for a 110-employee company. Anecdotal I know, but over the last 12 months two of my colleagues have suddenly lost otherwise fit, healthy partners each being <50 years of age. Spanning back over ~30 years I have only known of 2 or three other equivalent losses.
      
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      November 17, 2023 12:46pm
  - Lenticular
    
    At some point, technological progress can no longer cover cultural and moral decline. Prepare for more and more disease and more and more ineffectual turning to technical solutions.
    
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    November 17, 2023 8:33pm
Maggie Pie

And reports of 16 new migrants living in a three beddy out South Auckland way must be of real concern to INZ and Te Whata Ora, surely to goodness?
The outbreak of serious illness or disease must be on the cards in situations like that 🙁
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November 17, 2023 10:42am
Bridgenag

Statement and Testimony, COVID-19 Vax Injuries
A statement prepared for the November 13 House of Representatives Hearing

“The emergency use authorized genetic therapy-based vaccine products have been rushed through a highly abbreviated regulatory process, forced via unethical coercion, enticement and compulsion to be accepted, and predictably now we have large numbers of US Citizens who have been damaged by these products as well as the non-pharmaceutical intervention policies which have also been mandated and enforced by the federal government.”

https://open.substack.com/pub/rwmalonemd/p/statement-and-testimony-covid-19?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
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November 17, 2023 11:02am
- ClanMcleod
  
  In NZ? “Get your booster!”
  
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  November 17, 2023 12:20pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Stop Co-Governance. Julian Batchelor.

Start a T.E.G.
These days even the Google machine is corrupted. Truth is sometimes hard to find. And then there are radicals spewing their nonsense with people believing the lies!
https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/what-is-the-most-crucial-thing-you-can-do-practically-to-stop-the-radical-maori-takeover-of-our-country/?
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November 17, 2023 11:36am
- Inandout
  
  SO, you are correct about Google. Try entering Greta Thumberg and you will see screeds of items praising her, but nary any criticism. The cleansers must have at some time worked for the old Twitter.
  
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  November 17, 2023 12:28pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Same as trying to find out the size of the kickback Pfizer gave to Ardern. She didn’t do it for peanuts. Safe and Effective.
    The Google Cache has been scrubbed thoroughly.
    It was there once. One of this things I should have screenshotted.
    
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    November 17, 2023 12:57pm
    - Wayne Mapp
      
      Steve,
      
      Irrespective of what you think of Ardern, you know that this is a straight out lie.
      
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      November 17, 2023 2:22pm
      - Jake Dee
        
        You can’t say that, regardless of what the actual facts are or what he knows or doesn’t know. Not knowing if something is true is not the same as knowing it is false.
        
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        November 17, 2023 3:21pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        I don’t know that at all Wayne.
        Ardern is the liar. Please tell me she does not tell lies.
        “Well, I actually believe it is possible to exist in politics without lying and by telling the truth,”
        
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        November 17, 2023 3:58pm
      - Lenticular
        
        Most of the US Congress bought Pfizer stocks just before instituting mandates.
        
        There have been huge covid corruption scandals in EU countries too.
        
        If you and your fellow establishment cronies have nothing to hide, release the details of the contract.
        
        FWIW I don’t believe JA got a personal kickback, but she certainly went about things in a way that invites such allegations.
        
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        November 17, 2023 8:36pm
    - Ghost
      
      It’s still there Steve as is the evidence the claim was made on a junk tabloid style website. Do you believe everything on the internet?
      
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      November 17, 2023 2:25pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        NO. But there were many things that sort of disappeared.
        Scrub here scrub there, scrub everywhere. So if it was non-evidence why was it removed?
        Oh, it breaches blah blah blah rules.
        
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        November 17, 2023 3:31pm
      - MCōs
        
        Translation
        
        ‘Yes. If it suits my point of view’
        
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        November 17, 2023 4:17pm
    - krazykiwi
      
      Yeah, no solid evidence of that. While there’s little agreement about her net worth, there is no disagreement that it has increased significantly since becoming PM. It’s also no secret that she kept all but Pfizer’s MRNA vax out of New Zealand and that Pfizer has a bribery and corruption rap sheet that would make your average gangster’s eyes water. Circumstantial? Sure, but anyone who thinks this kind of corruption is impossible will also, I suspect, enjoy browsing bridge catalogs.
      
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      November 17, 2023 2:35pm
      - Ghost
        
        She’s so wealthy she had to go to Westpac to get a loan to buy her house.
        
        Pfizer wasn’t and still isn’t the only covid vaccine avaliable here
        
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        November 17, 2023 2:39pm
      - krazykiwi
        
        Pfizer was approved in Feb 2021, and it was the only ‘vaccine’ available for many months despite Moderna and Novavax both having been provisionally approved. Both Bloomfield and Ardern dodged questions on when supply of those two products would be sorted. AstraZeneca was approved and then withdrawn, as was AstraZeneca. There is no question that Pfizer had New Zealand well and truly in the bag.
        
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        November 17, 2023 3:09pm
      - Wayne Mapp
        
        Krazy,
        
        Absurd.
        
        There is simply no way any NZ PM would be bribed in the manner of a third world dictator.
        
        Of course you can ask me to prove it and of course I can’t. I can’t know whether there is a secret Panama account into which Pfizer has paid million of dollars for Ardern’s benefit.
        
        But only conspiracy theorists would think that could have happened. Mind you, I guess the fact that NZ ranks at the top on the anticorruption index is also the result of a conspiracy.
        
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        November 17, 2023 3:48pm
      - krazykiwi
        
        Wayne, I didn’t ask you to prove anything. That is, as you say, impossible. But I’ll mark you down as someone who believes corruption is impossible in New Zealand because reasons. Because ‘no way’. Because ‘impossible’. Or perhaps, using the Mapp Defence Of First Resort™, because ‘it would be political suicide’
        
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        November 17, 2023 4:09pm
      - krazykiwi
        
        “There is simply no way any NZ PM would be bribed in the manner of a third world dictator.”
        
        Also Wayne, I should remind you that Ardern acted in the manner of a well accomplished third world dictator throughout the latter part of her rule.
        
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        November 17, 2023 4:14pm
      - kowtow
        
        Third world ?
        
        MahutaCorp
        Journalism fund
        Provincial “growth” fund
        
        Recently concern over the revolving door of consultants and the so called public service
        
        And setting up a huge 3 waters structure based on tribal boundaries not to mention a race based “health” service all does start to sound “third world” and many aspects have /had more than a whiff of corruption about it/them.
        
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        November 17, 2023 4:46pm
      - Lenticular
        
        Mapp probably thinks the entirety of Mahuta’s family got hired to senior positions with no qualifications by an honest and impartial process too!
        
        Don’t you, Wayne! Never anything to see here!
        
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        November 17, 2023 8:40pm
    - NothingLeft
      
      Has she had any book deals with large signing bonuses, or been given any highly paid but low effort NGO jobs? Or received big paydays for the odd waffling speech to people who could care less what she has to say?
      
      These are the most popular methods to launder bribes to politicians these days.
      
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      November 17, 2023 2:43pm
      - Ghost
        
        This is the claim Steve keeps trying to push
        
        https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/claims-about-jacinda-arderns-wealth-not-worth-a-brass-razoo/
        
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        November 17, 2023 3:05pm
      - kevn
        
        kk… Trust is looong gone. Isn’t it?
        
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        November 17, 2023 6:01pm
    - Swifty
      
      I really do think you should come up with the absolute clear, slam dunk hard evidence of that Steve or you should stop repeating it.
      
      I say it never happened. Prove me wrong or quit it.
      
      Good lord there is more than enough to have a go at her and her mates about without having to make shit up.
      
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      November 17, 2023 2:58pm
      - Jake Dee
        
        I think there is a very high (90~95%) probability that you are right and he is wrong but let’s stick to the rules. He doesn’t have to prove you are wrong, he has to prove that he is right. The burden of proof is on the affirmative of the proposition.
        
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        November 17, 2023 3:27pm
      - kevn
        
        Ghost… and who checks the supposed fact checkers?
        
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        November 17, 2023 3:32pm
      - Swifty
        
        Jake Dee:
        
        “He doesn’t have to prove you are wrong, he has to prove that he is right.”
        
        That is exactly what I have invited him to do.
        
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        November 17, 2023 4:11pm
      - Ghost
        
        Well kven you could check where the claim came from, a junk tabloid website then ask yourself is such a website is legit. But I think if Steve can not back up his claim the PM took a $23 million bribe he should follow politics, rise, withdraw, apologise and stop making it.
        
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        November 17, 2023 4:16pm
      - Ghost
        
        Btw, for people who don’t know this is the website the claim originated from
        
        Apumone.com
        
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        November 17, 2023 4:20pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        The evidence is gone. The Google Cache scrubbed. Yes Swifty, I can’t prove it.
        How many times do I have to say? The Google Cache has been scrubbed! ffs.
        
        Sometimes there are many things that I should have taken a screenshot of.
        Of course, I could just make a false screenshot!
        
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        November 17, 2023 4:48pm
Maggie Pie

Can anyone give me a head up on all this ‘Black Friday’ sh*t?

I always thort it was only when it fell on the 13th.
Just saying.
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November 17, 2023 11:54am
- MCōs
  
  It’s an American term
  It refers to the day when retail outlets supposedly become profitable for the year by way of mega sales.
  That is out of the red & into the black
  
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  November 17, 2023 12:19pm
- kowtow
  
  More corporate marketing crap from US and A .
  
  The Friday that follows Thanksgiving . How it has anything to do with us , like the Warehouse Halloween nonsense, is beyond me .
  
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  November 17, 2023 12:24pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  American. Black Friday is the Friday following Thanksgiving, which is the fourth Thursday in November.
  Typically a good punchup day to get the goods you want.
  
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  November 17, 2023 12:34pm
- Jake Dee
  
  It’s a forced marketing meme pushed by American retailers. Discount all your old junk to make way for all the new crap in time for the holiday season.
  
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  November 17, 2023 3:30pm
- Colville
  
  In USA its the mega sale day that kicks off the Xmas shopping season.
  
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  November 17, 2023 5:06pm
ClanMcleod

Things that come back to haunt you.

In compiling information in a prior post re Shaun Hendy and his complicity in the nightmare of the last 3 + years, I came across this gem of a quote from the man himself.

At 3pm on Monday June 8, I turned on the TV with the rest of New Zealand. I cried quietly to myself as the Prime Minister announced the country would shift back to Alert Level 1 at midnight. We had beaten it.

Oh dear…….

https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/2021/03/17/covid-19-cried-quietly-to-myself.html
14 2
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November 17, 2023 12:31pm
- nathie
  
  Clan – let us all not forget that even one year later Doctors that had concerns were ridiculed, villified and cancelled from Govt health contracts and thus impacting their livelihoods.
  
  And these people (Hendy’s mates) were leading the charge against them …
  
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/125605155/the-doctors-trying-to-hijack-new-zealands-covid19-vaccination-rollout
  
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/126234156/doctor-who-sent-antivax-text-to-patients-says-his-contract-has-been-terminated
  
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  November 17, 2023 12:51pm
- Jake Dee
  
  It’s interesting, isn’t it? a respiratory virus whose main symptoms are psychological, emotional and political.
  
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  November 17, 2023 3:33pm
Maggie Pie

Who’s with Plunko on this?

Shaun Plunket labels the NZ-Islamic-Federation…. “a bunch of arseholes” and tells them “to go back where you came from”

WATCH:

https://twitter.com/theplatform_nz/status/1725295883783487864
14 2
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November 17, 2023 1:01pm
- Ghost
  
  Yeah, become a part of the country, accept our ways or bugger off.
  
  8 2
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  November 17, 2023 1:12pm
  - MCōs
    
    Funny
    Doesn’t work that way for “expats” in SEAsia
    
    3 5
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    November 17, 2023 2:04pm
    - kowtow
      
      Funny they’d get banged up , beaten up , bashed or deported if they broke the law or rules in most SE Asia countries .
      
      Haircuts at Singers for starters back in the day, and there’s still a long drop there for idiots who think drugs are ok and the cane …….
      
      And as you well know try insulting a temple or the King in Old Siam .
      
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      November 17, 2023 2:30pm
- kowtow
  
  Odd , in his previous job he used to cut off callers who were saying the exact same thing as he just said.
  Very rudely and abruptly at that .
  
  What’s changed.
  
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  November 17, 2023 2:25pm
- Swifty
  
  Re the FIANZ guy, and I’m sorry if this appears a bit off topic or obscure, once you realise that Islam is not ‘just’ a religion; that it is also, some say entirely, a political system – then all becomes clear.
  
  The FIANZ spokesman is just the political spokesperson for a political organisation representing a political ideology.
  
  An organisation and ideology which has driven Jewish persecution, to varying degrees in different times and places, for 1,400 years.
  
  Of course he would come out against Israel and anything Jewish – he is following a very, very long tradition. Right back in fact to the days where Mohammed and his mates fabricated the Koran and the Hadith.
  
  A very good question to the FIANZ spokesperson would be to ask him to direct New Zealanders to FIANZ’s press releases condemning Muslim versus Muslim violence and butchery in recent times including the hundreds and hundreds of thousands killed just in the last ten years in Syria, Iraq, Yemen and many other places around the globe.
  
  Or call for ambassadors to be booted out of the country.
  
  He won’t be able to. The only country and country actions they find the time to condemn is Israel.
  
  Funny that.
  
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  November 17, 2023 2:53pm
  - Jake Dee
    
    I can’t see any meaningful distinction between a religious and political ideology. They’re all based on abstract metaphysics.
    
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    November 17, 2023 3:38pm
    - Swifty
      
      I’m not clever enough to understand your point – all I know is that any ideology that openly states it wants everyone to adhere to its precepts and that it wishes to dominate the whole world is one that must be resisted.
      
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      November 17, 2023 4:08pm
    - Lenticular
      
      It’s pretty simple, Jake:
      Islam prescribes a specific governmental form (Sunni: caliphate), with specific constitutional features (a specific system of legalistic theocracy), and an entire, quite detailed legal code.
      
      Christianity prescribes repentance and faith in Christ, and acceptance of civil authority. It prescribes no form of government.
      
      Never mind abstract metaphysics, there’s a very tangible difference re: government.
      
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      November 17, 2023 8:49pm
Maggie Pie

WHY WE MUST NEVER FORGET.

“With or without baking powder”?

https://mol.im/a/12689829
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November 17, 2023 1:28pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  I did not read, sorry.
  Sick.
  
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  November 17, 2023 5:52pm
Swifty

A few days ago I saw a Jake Tapper piece where he played video recordings of Hamas leaders saying the recent attack on Israeli civilians is the first of many and that they are going to keep on attacking until they are finally victorious.

(I’m sorry I can’t find it today, maybe someone else can. It was definitely within the last week.)

Given this I’ve got a couple of questions.

1. If this is the case, what do NZ Green MPs etc believe Israel should do in response?

2. Does this alter the same MPs calls for a ceasefire, given that Hamas leadership has now openly said they have no intention of honouring it?
9 1
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November 17, 2023 1:41pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  You mean this A-Hole, Swifty?
  
  https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1719662664090075199
  
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  November 17, 2023 3:02pm
  - Swifty
    
    That’s it! The very one.
    
    Thanks.
    
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    November 17, 2023 3:20pm
Maggie Pie

A bestie retweets…

‘Kiri 2.0 without the booze’.

https://twitter.com/NewstalkZB/status/1725319591780397078
6 1
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November 17, 2023 2:16pm
Taieri

My heart is bleeding for these poor dears:

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/victoria-university-students-win-fight-over-attending-lectures
6 0
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November 17, 2023 3:02pm
- info@cruzpro.com
  
  57 years ago I was a student at the University of California at Berkley.
  
  One semester I decided to home teach myself and not attend lectures. While the class jumped around through the text book, I read and studied the entire book. If I didn’t understand something I would back up a chapter and re-read it until I understood it.
  
  I asked other students what the homework assignments were so I could do what was required.
  
  That semester I received the best grades I ever got in university. There were a few good teachers but a whole lot of crappy ones.
  
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  November 17, 2023 6:43pm
Vinicius

Who is Peters having a go at in this video who asks a question at the 15 seconds’ mark? Sounds like Tova? He tells her that her column this morning was ‘poppycock’ and ‘absolute rubbish’.

He also has a go at one of the others. All rather amusing. Luxon needs to do this stop being so nice.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/11/17/winston-peters-spars-with-media-over-coalition-talks/
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November 17, 2023 3:16pm
- Ghost
  
  poppycock’ and ‘absolute rubbish’.
  
  Shit that could be just about every ~~journalist~~ tabloid writer in NZ.
  
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  November 17, 2023 3:21pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  I get tired of hearing that guy Jason Walls on ZB making sh*t up about the coalition talks, because he says he can’t get Winston Peters to stop long enough to answer his questions.
  
  If it was ME, I’d have Winnie eating out of the palm of my hand.
  
  Just saying.
  
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  November 17, 2023 3:34pm
lifesgood

Does anyone know where Jason Walls gets his weird accent from. It really grates on me.
5 1
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November 17, 2023 3:38pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  He went to school in Mt Roskill.
  
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  November 17, 2023 3:50pm
- Vinicius
  
  He’s from the USA.
  
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  November 17, 2023 4:01pm
Ghost

Pathetic

Two men have had their sentences of home detention downgraded to a nightime curfew, after earlier admitting that, as students, they sexually abused teenaged girls – some of whom they filmed and shared the digital files with friends.

Judge John Bergseng gave both 26-year-old men permanent name suppression at a hearing at the Auckland District Court in August. He is yet to issue his reasons for the decision.

Article
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November 17, 2023 4:12pm
- Ghost
  
  Might as well add this one here too
  
  Former knight, James Hay Wallace, has been granted parole and is due to be released on December 11, his lawyer David Jones KC told Stuff.
  
  Article
  
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  November 17, 2023 4:14pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    That guy is now 85.
    
    1 0
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    November 17, 2023 7:05pm
    - Maggie Pie
      
      yes – makes you wondwr how long hes been ‘at it’
      
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      November 17, 2023 7:37pm
fernglas

If it’s okay for Hipkins to renege on a promise not to introduce capital gains and wealth taxes under his leadership because they lost the election, then is it also okay for him to go back on the promise that Labour would not form a coalition government with NZ First for the same reason?
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November 17, 2023 6:40pm
kevn

Ghost and SteveO… Try finding this on google for instance. You won’t.
duck duck go has it. FWIW
Pre biden.
https://wiba.iheart.com/featured/common-sense-central/content/2021-01-19-the-complete-list-of-president-trumps-accomplishments/
6 1
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November 17, 2023 6:48pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  kevn yes Trump may be a “dick” so to speak in some respects (mainly his manner of speaking which leaves a lot to be desired, and some sleazy but not criminal antics), but those ARE impressive and patriotic achievements. I’d rather a patriotic and high achieving occasional “dick” in charge of the USA than a pack of highly unpatriotic and destructive woke grifting idiots, any day.
  
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  November 17, 2023 7:12pm
Maggie Pie

Some drunk guy sneeks up behind Winston during tv press conference outside hotel…throws hands around his shoulders and gives Winnie a kiss on the cheek.

Winnie looks startled but turns to him and yells….”Hey! I’m not with the Labor Party!”

LOL – bring it on i say 😀 😀 😀
6 1
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November 17, 2023 7:46pm
- Ghost
  
  He didn’t look like this did he?
  
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  November 17, 2023 8:29pm
  - Scooter
    
    JuJu lips Hipkins
    
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    November 17, 2023 8:42pm

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