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October 13, 2023 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 13 October 2023

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General Debate

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Benedict Yu

This is disappointing.

At the time of the attack on the Chistchurch Mosques, the overwhelming majority of New Zealanders condemned the atrocity. The Muslim community in Christchurch was provided with significant moral and financial support. The justice system tried the murderer and imposed the most severe punishment possible under New Zealand law.

Yet now we have the Islamic Women’s Council of New Zealand issuing a statement essentially saying that Israel brought the attack by Hamas on itself.

“Most politicians and countries have said and done nothing to prevent these atrocities and clear violations of human rights towards Palestinians for years, yet those same people and nations with power to influence have rushed to the microphones and stood in front of cameras within the last day and a half calling out and condemning Palestinians.”

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2310/S00090/islamic-womens-council-of-new-zealand-urges-consistent-commitment-to-human-rights-amidst-ongoing-palestinian-crisis.htm

The statement does not mention Hamas by name. Nether does it acknowledge families being massacred and babies having their heads chopped off.

We are often reminded by Islamic communities and lobby groups that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful. This is undoubtedly true. However the peaceful members of Islamic communities undermine our trust and goodwill towards them when they fail to condemn acts of depravity committed by Muslims.
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October 13, 2023 8:00am
- Scott
  
  A few nights ago a professor from Otago University was interviewed on TV news about the situation in Israel and he urged negotiations and a two state solution. Like all of these professors he sounded very reasonable and very learned. He is also very wrong. Because what if one side does not ever want to negotiate?
  
  A quick Google search will find the charter of Hamas. Hamas are the rulers of the Gaza Strip, having been elected in 2006. In 2005 the Israelis completely withdrew from the Gaza Strip, to the point of removing all Israeli citizens by force.
  
  The Hamas charter is very clear, here is Article 13 –
  ” [Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith…
  There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad.”
  https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm
  
  Can we at least pay these people the courtesy of believing what they say? They believe in jihad. They believe there is no solution to the Palestinian problem through negotiation. They believe in “freeing” Palestine from the river to the sea. This means the destruction of the Jewish state. They believe this is their religious duty.
  
  If people won’t believe their words, then believe their actions. The deliberate targeting and killing of families is not a bug of Hamas, it is a feature. They really believe it is their religious duty to destroy the Jewish state and destroy its inhabitants. They really believe this is the will of Allah. These people cannot be negotiated and reasoned with. They can only be resisted.
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:02am
  - artemisia
    
    In Chris Trotter’s article today – When the devil comes knocking – he makes this point. And relates it to New Zealnd.
    
    “It is, however, worth asking what was going through the minds of the Palestinian voters of Gaza when, in 2006, as free citizens, they embraced the manifesto of Hamas and hoisted it into government. Remember, this was before they discovered that, having voted Hamas in, they were not going to be permitted to vote Hamas out
    
    ZB PLUS, paywalled.
    
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    October 13, 2023 8:28am
    - Ra Henare
      
      Artenisa, Shades of Kiwis who 3 years ago voted in Labour not realizing that Maorification, and significant division the country were on the agenda.
      
      Same as those who vote Green do not realise they are voting Marxist dogma. Nothing about environment at all. Rod Donald would be appalled at what his [arty has become…
      
      Like Patrick Moore and Greenpeace parting ways when Greenpeace took a turn away from its original objectives of environment to political.
      
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      October 13, 2023 12:41pm
    - Waipuk
      
      You could ask the say question of voters who vote for labour
      
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      October 13, 2023 12:41pm
  - G152
    
    Sadly the media are somehow missing that this time it was the hamas who attacked innocent civilians.
    For that major omission the media should be shut down and those biased socalled reporters banished.
    In the meantime bomb the hell out of the perps and their apologists
    
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    October 13, 2023 8:34am
    - Local Miller
      
      What do you mean “this time it was the hamas (sic) who attacked innocent civilians” ?
      It has ALWAYS been Hamas attacking innocent civilians and Israel exercising restraint and targeting military/Hamas installations. Where civilians in Gaza have been killed by the IDF, it’s almost always because Hamas won’t let them leave the are around their installations and use them as human shields. They do this specifically so they can accuse Israel of “war crimes”.
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:07am
      - Ra Henare
        
        LM, One wonders where you get your news from?
        
        This statement is defiantly a fairytale
        
        Where civilians in Gaza have been killed by the IDF, it’s almost always because Hamas won’t let them leave
        
        Maybe LM you dont realise that aerial bombing (By IDF forces) does not discriminate against innocent civilians and Hamas ideologs.
        
        As previously mentioned this conflict will be solved by politicians not “”bombing the shit”” out of innocent civilians.
        
        Think Afghanistan IRAQ, Serbia and countless others. Remember the Northern Ireland Violence was almost eliminated by political will. Not killings
        
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        October 13, 2023 12:47pm
      - artemisia
        
        Didn’t the IDF have a longstanding policy to knock on the roof to warn occupiers? And now give some sort of warning before taking out a neighbourhood, at least sometimes?
        
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        October 13, 2023 2:58pm
  - Philview
    
    I read an article by the same Otago Professor where he said Hamas made a mistake in that they thought Israel wouldn’t react. Come off it, Israel is reacting in exactly the way Hamas and their allies have planned. It is a question of what they (Hamas) have planned next that is of concern to the rest of the world.
    
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    October 13, 2023 8:43am
    - thirteenstars
      
      Bingo.
      
      The academics and sly commentators would like to pretend Hamas did this out of some righteous indignation at being held in the “world’s largest prison camp”, because to say otherwise would be to admit that there’s a greater, more wicked purpose in play, orchestrated by interests using Palestinians as a good excuse to eradicate Jews.
      
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      October 13, 2023 9:46am
    - Paulus
      
      Remember the Leaders of Hamas having received Billions of US Dollars assistance now live in their own palatial enclaves, I understand, in Jeddah.
      And roam around the world First Class to spend whatever they can for their families.
      I hope they are no going to be very cautious because Israel are know for finding and eliminating their enemies no long as it takes.
      All the Munich ones got done remember.
      
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      October 13, 2023 2:28pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        That was my thought Paulus. I would suggest those guys become invisible, because if they continue being out in public, they will be terminated fairly smartly.
        
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        October 13, 2023 4:45pm
  - JackRabbit
    
    Scott, this is not a war about religion. It is a war about money. Specifically the arms industry cashflow.
    
    Defense stocks are on the rise again. How did arms destined for Ukraine paid for USA tax dollars arrive in the Gaza strip?
    
    If you really wanted to stop the war on the Gaza strip you would drain the swamp, impeach Biden, and reinstate Trump, who by all evidence won the last election.
    
    But Trump had to go, because be brokered peace, thereby stopping wars, and impacting the cashflow of the arms merchants.
    
    He shut down the USA funding in Wuhan to Fauci’s pet virus projects, (which Biden reinstated upon getting back in office). No viruses, no pandemics, and pharma stocks would drop.
    
    Money is what underpins all political moves. Not religion, not politics. Even in NZ. We think the destruction of NZ has been dons by a bunch of red left wing student politicians.
    
    Think again. Follow the money. Was Ardern simply misguided when she banned oil and gas exploration? No. She was mothballing the industry for future Blackrock types who when NZ is bankrupt will pick up these assets at fire sale value. Or will just take said assets (including Three Waters) when NZ defaults on money borrowed which had NZ assets as security.
    
    Follow the money. Who benefits?
    
    The arms merchants are in business as are the political figures that set policies that create or enable unrest. Like other businessmen, they have profit targets and cashflow models. They will have cashflow models fro tanks, rocket launchers, anti-aircraft guns / rockets, helicopter gunships.
    
    If their cashflow is dropping, they will get out, market and create sales. And in the true spirit of marketing, (but clearly unethical in this instance) they will create a need and fill it.
    
    They crunch the numbers, and decide what they need to sell to reach their targets, and what ‘needs’ they are going to have to ‘create’ and go and do it.
    
    It happens with war, drugs (oxycontin), vaccines (Pfizer/Moderna/Biontech). It even happens with drugs we regard as helpful, e.g. Sugar diabetes drugs. By simply changing what is the “normal” range, you create a need when suddenly people are now outside the normal.
    
    And if your medications create a dependency because they are not curing the disease or solving the cause of the problem, you have eternal cashflow from a patient until they die, and being funded by state medicine, it has little direct impact on the wallet of the patient.
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:18am
    - waikatosinger
      
      There are multiple motives in play. Some of those supplying rockets and weapons might be motivated by money. But the people shooting unarmed teenagers at a rock concert and chopping the heads off babies are not doing it because they are paid.
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:06am
      - JackRabbit
        
        But the people shooting unarmed teenagers at a rock concert and chopping the heads off babies are not doing it because they are paid.
        
        Are you sure about that?
        
        Who pays for their weapons, who listens to them, who blows sunshine up their collective arses and throws unending validation and money at them?
        
        Its called grooming. Leftists by nature are lazy, so they don’t do anything unless someone feeds them and their leftist ideas.
        
        If Arden wasn’t groomed she would still be working in a fish and chip shop. I went to high school with people that were groomed, and where groomers played and shaped the warped ideas of their victims, instead of putting them on the straight and narrow.
        
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        October 13, 2023 10:38am
      - JackRabbit
        
        And one of those groomed victims became a prominent Marxist goon, promoting similar ideas to Ardern, Hipkins, Little and the Greens.
        
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        October 13, 2023 11:07am
    - NZer In Exile
      
      JackRabbit I do think you are onto something. Basically the super rich Davos set think they are god kings and want to maximise returns even further while clearing their “holiday planet” of too many pesky cockroach ordinary humans.
      
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      October 13, 2023 7:00pm
    - Ghost
      
      I’d disagree about reinstating trump. He’s part of the story, part of the swamp.
      
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      October 13, 2023 7:14pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    Immigrants should leave religious and political bigotry and racism in their own country.
    
    Some of them want it both ways.
    
    They want to continue supporting their religious and political régimes, the very reason they left their homeland, from the safety of New Zealand and expect sympathy and political influence with their victimhood as payment.
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:25am
    - Nickc2
      
      IMO, among the squillions of so-called refuge males of fighting age flooding into Europe and other leftist Nations/Countries, is an Army of Radical Muslim Sleepers on the move.
      Australia has discovered this (albeit too late) with their pro-Palestine riots in NSW and AFIK Victoria is the next target on their list.
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:48am
  - Beach Haven expat
    
    Heard someone say something obvious but profound. If Hamas puts down its weapons there will be peace. If Israel does, there will be genocide.
    
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    October 13, 2023 1:21pm
    - Nickc2
      
      Very true I fear!
      
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      October 13, 2023 2:03pm
- Simon
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  “This is disappointing.”
  
  Just wait until National do side deals with the Hamas loving Gween Party.
  
  Gweens support Hamas and National in the next few years will deal with them in an attempt at virtue signaling. Many around here will overlook National dealing with woke Hamas loving Gweens.
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:12am
  - Captain Mainwaring
    
    Simple Simon is excelling himself this morning. No sign of the pieman.
    
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    October 13, 2023 8:15am
  - Damocles11
    
    You must have a massive chip on that shoulder Simon.
    
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    October 13, 2023 8:18am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    They are not Greens and have not been Greens for a long time.
    They are commies.
    
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    October 13, 2023 8:45am
    - JackRabbit
      
      Yes,
      
      They are no longer the watermelon party – Green on the outside and pinko in the middle. They no longer disguise their Marxist values. Any slight tinges of green remaining are envy.
      
      People like Chloe Swarbrick are simple wind up toys that spit out Marxist inspired propaganda such as ‘climate change’ and ‘diversity’. Chloe probably came out of the same factory as Greta, but on a different production line.
      
      They are totally programmed, which includes programming that prevents them from discovering they are programmed, and and self inspection/reflection/questioning as to the validity of the lies they spout forth. i.e. no conscience or self diagnostics. Hipkins exhibits similar traits.
      
      Having being totally programmed and indoctrinated, there are nothing more than vexatious automatons. Only other programmed automatons will find anything in common and therefore be compelled to vote for them.
      
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      October 13, 2023 9:33am
      - Sacha
        
        ‘Chloe probably came out of the same factory as Greta, but on a different production line.’
        
        Nice one, Jack.
        
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        October 13, 2023 11:20am
      - John Loveridge
        
        Has anybody seen little Greta lately? Or is she yesteryear’s poster child?
        
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        October 13, 2023 7:09pm
    - Matt Long
      
      Steve O, please leave off Criticism of National until after the election.
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:26am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Sorry.
        
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        October 13, 2023 11:34am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Once Were Environmentalists. featuring the life (and lies?) of James the MSc
      
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      October 13, 2023 12:14pm
  - lastmanstanding
    
    Last night Chippie looked like a barking terrier chasing a car as he did in the last debate. Luxon looked Prime Ministerial. BTW what was the crack Chippie made to Luxon about a Bentley. Anyone know.
    Im still predicting a low turnout and Nat/ACT just getting over the line even though Luxon dropped the ball by not ruling out NZF when Chippie did. That was a rooky mistake. Never give your enemy oxygen or a life line.
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:04am
    - JackRabbit
      
      If Luxon ruled out NZF and therefore what NZF, Winston, Costello, Murfitt and others in NZF are saying, National’s polling would have slumped in the same way ACT slumped in the polls when he started attacking Winston and saying Seymour started saying he wouldn’t work with Winston.
      
      Every time Luxon says that he doesn’t want people fighting for freedom of expression and medical freedom (which he slovenly and condescending calls “anti-vaxxers”), they oblige and move away from National.
      
      It does not matter how people lose their lives and sustain injuries: Mosque shooting, terrorist attack, medical experiments, when you deny the deaths and injuries, deny compensation and gaslight the victims and victims families trying to speak out, it has consequences.
      
      Luxon and Seymour, perhaps once good people, have made a pact with evil in order to be in power.
      
      Both Luxon and Seymour either can’t read the room, or their masters or those that have leverage over them won’t allow then to deviate from the prescribed narrative. In short, they are crapping their pants at telling the truth.
      
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      October 13, 2023 11:05am
      - imalwaysright
        
        All Quiet on the Winston Front
        
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        October 13, 2023 12:32pm
    - Paulus
      
      John Key has a Bentley which he bought after he left Parliament.
      yes, I am jealous for that, but my wife would not let me !
      
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      October 13, 2023 2:31pm
  - Lance
    
    Zero evidence, unhinged drivel.
    And that’s my most charitable assessment of your latest anti-National diatribe.
    
    Seriously for a moment, you need help for such unrelenting and irrational bitterness.
    
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    October 13, 2023 11:26am
  - Media hater
    
    Simon, are you for real? I do not think you are even a good faith critic. Just a tedious troll.
    
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    October 13, 2023 11:49am
- Paulus
  
  Ardern saw political capital by what she did with the Muslim Community and the (no name) Christchurch shooter.
  She has benefited from that in many parts of the World even today.
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:19am
  - Matt Long
    
    Do you remember the academic who call the Christchurch massacre Christian Terrorism?
    And the terror attack at the Sri Lankan Church that followed?
    The academic left in NZ must have been very proud.
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:28am
    - Matt Long
      
      Scott Adams skewers leftist academia, (Robots Read News comic strip. )
      https://scottadams.locals.com/upost/4713771/robots-read-news-about-blm-doubling-down#gallery-post-4713771
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:29am
  - mawm
    
    Now that we know what the Islamic Women’s Council of New Zealand feel about the slaughter of “other people’s women and children” can we get our guns back. Asking for a friend who wants to protect his wife and children.
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:38am
- Frank the tank
  
  What is more appalling is still neither Hipkins nor Luxon have come out and called Hamas (in its entirety) a terrorist organization.
  
  Is live sheep exports to the middle east really worth that?
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:21am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Live sheep exports have now been banned.
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:32am
    - NothingLeft
      
      So Greebour don’t like ritualistic slaughtering of sheep by Muslims, but they are cool with it for Israeli babies?
      
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      October 13, 2023 12:17pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Why do Muslims come to New Zealand for the Freedom, then proceed to try and turn New Zealand into the same sort of shithole they left behind?
  Leave your baggage at the airport before boarding a plane to New Zealand.
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:22am
  - cmm
    
    Exactly the same as Californians going to other states and Californicating them.
    
    The problem is not in the land. It is not in the water. It is in the people: in their attitudes and values. The Middle East is a shithole because of the people and their values. If they drag their same attitudes and values halfway around the world they won’t change anything.
    
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    October 13, 2023 8:31am
  - bjools
    
    Everywhere they go.
    UK, Sweden, Germany, France and Australia etc
    
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    October 13, 2023 8:44am
  - Tom Hunter
    
    The Magic Dirt Theory.
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:08am
  - MCōs
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    “Why do Muslims come to New Zealand for the Freedom, then proceed to try and turn New Zealand into the same sort of shithole they left behind?”
    
    I would suggest you’ve never been to a Muslim country nor do you know any Muslims in NZ who have migrated from these countries.
    If you did you could put the question to them face to face.
    BTW
    Not a million miles from my place, out towards the airport, there are a couple of Islamic schools and a mosque, but Muslims don’t creep around the streets like the Mormons & Seventh Day Adventists forever annoying the residents even when they’re told not to come back.
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:30am
    - All_on_Red
      
      What?
      You’ve never been visited by Jihadi Witnesses
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSyPgQeGlgU
      
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      October 13, 2023 9:35am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Correct. I have never been to a Muslim Country – and I have no intention of going to one. There is one Muslim lady I talk to in the local mall. Just talk talk, never about Hamas, Palestine, Israel, etc. She is a nice person, the only Muslim I talk to. I don’t know where she comes from, and I only know her first name by her namebadge.
      Actually MCos, I have not traveled much other than Alaska twice via Hawaii 3 days stopover each way.
      Never been to Oz even though I have a brother there. Oz just does not interest me.
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:11am
      - OlderChas
        
        Having had to visit Oz many times for work Steve, I can advise you never to visit. Every time I went there I found the place over-run by bloody Australians!
        
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        October 13, 2023 10:43am
      - Nickc2
        
        Is your brother’s name Des?
        
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        October 13, 2023 11:00am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        That is what I fear OlderChas. Even my brother has picked up the NSW accent.
        
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        October 13, 2023 11:36am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        @ Nick. That would be a cousin.
        
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        October 13, 2023 11:37am
      - Ra Henare
        
        Thanks Steve for identifying yourself as a media regurgitator.
        
        Not having travelled eliminates most knowledge of your fellow man and feeds the biases you are fed on a daily basis by media manipulators.
        
        I have travelled extensively, lived on 4 continents and find that the common people and belief systems NEVER match the crap put out by the media.
        
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        October 13, 2023 12:56pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        @Ra,
        Big deal sonny. Some of us just like it here without traveling to other Countries and listen how great they are compared to NZ.
        
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        October 13, 2023 5:40pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      So if you are a female born into a religious Muslim family, you have more freedoms than those “creeping” (which as you know MCōs is a stinking lie) Mormons & Seventh Day Adventists ???
      
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      October 13, 2023 7:48pm
- kowtow
  
  The fact that a self described so called women’s council can’t find it in their hearts to condemn the planned ,deliberate literal slaughter of whole communities including the elderly , women and children , many sheltering in “safe rooms” who were burned to death and the hostage taking of so many women is in itself very eloquent .
  
  Likewise the refusal of our media to label them what they are ; terrorists .
  
  The same media has now moved to “Gaza misery” mode playing the league table equivalence game .Which is of course a nonsense .
  If these people adopted modern ,democratic norms there’d be , all things being equal , peace and prosperity.
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:28am
  - Bridgenag
    
    Little jewish school in Remuera closed today because they are worried about the anti semitic escalation.
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:50am
- Rusty
  
  @Benedict
  
  Hamas actions have been despicable and deserve worldwide condemnation.
  
  But can I add when Bush/US invaded Iraq in 2003 on a false premise of weapons of mass destruction thousands of innocent Iraq citizens died.
  
  Did the christian world condemn US actions over this?
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:31am
  - Che Guava
    
    One of the main reasons for Islamic terrorism in the West is due to our, or particularly the US’s, unconditional support for Israel. I fail to see how Israel’s interests are also ours. Some vague notion of “they are the only democracy in the Middle East” seems to be the main argument. It’s unclear why I should care about the political systems in the Middle East. History will show that one of the main factors in the decline of the US was the blood and treasure it spent for 20 years fighting someone else’s wars in the Middle East.
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:52am
    - Lance
      
      So if we could magic away Israel, there would never be any Islaimic terrorism upon the West ever again?
      Wow, whatever you are smoking, can I have some, it must be powerful stuff.
      
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      October 13, 2023 11:30am
    - JimBobJoe
      
      Islamic Terror attacks against no Islamic people started while Mohammed was alive, the Arabian peoples subdued (including Jewish Tribes living in what is today Saudi Arabia) and it has continued to the present day
      
      It is a setting in the religion.
      
      The West inviting Muslims into their countries was, is and will always be a mistake.
      
      Individual Muslims at work are often engaging and happy people. But the fundamentalist urges in Islam as a religion are incredibly strong. Once a population of Mulims is large enough in a Western country that fundamentalist strain demands Sharia, demands respect for their values while pissing on others, and belittles & derides the host culture
      
      Europe threw Islam out of France in the 700’s (step up Charles Martel), out of Spain in the 1200-1400 period and again in the 1600’s at the Gates of Vienna (step up Jan III Sobieski and the Winged Hussars)
      
      So blaming the West for Islams violent streak is ignoring what Islam is and has been since Mohammed founded the religion and promptly attacked Meccan caravans…
      
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      October 13, 2023 12:46pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Guava you are aware their prophet had a murderous hatred for the Jews? As far as I’m aware simply because they mocked his plagiarising of their religious books. So what if Israel has a relationship with the US?? So does Saudi Arabia and many other countries. You attempts at arguments on this issue are piss weak and pathetic.
      
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      October 13, 2023 6:52pm
      - Che Guava
        
        Why did their prophet have “a murderous hatred of Jews”? Why is this, or versions of it, such a common theme throughout history?
        
        And to say that “Israel has a relationship with the US” is to completely understate the situation to the point of parody: not only do they “have a relationship with the US,” the Israel lobby is probably the most influential lobby group in US politics, with AIPAC being the prime example.
        
        As can be deduced from the servile attitude of almost all US politicians towards Israel and Jewish interests more generally, it is obvious that Israel is in such a powerful position that it effectively dictates American foreign policy no matter if it is bad for America (an overt instance I cite being the two decades of war waged in Israel’s backyard for seemingly no other plausible reason).
        
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        October 13, 2023 8:14pm
  - Ehlana
    
    What do you mean by “the christian world”? Even in Western countries where Christianity remains the state religion, there is generally freedom of religion and Christian affiliation and church attendance have been in decline for decades, so it is probably no longer accurate to refer to them as Christian countries.
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:56am
    - MCōs
      
      Christianity is the state religion of England and the King/Queen is the head of the Church of England.
      I expect if Charles or the next bloke leaves the church they would have to abdicate.
      Fornicating hypocrites, the lot of them!
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:20am
      - krazykiwi
        
        As a Protestant I have always been quietly mocking of our number who speak disparagingly Catholicism.
        
        Based on my reading – and I’m open to correction – The Protestant church only came into existence because Henry VIII wanted to screw/marry/kill his way across the country and Rome wasn’t supportive .. so he cut loose and established himself (the sovereign) as the head of the church thereby removing his accountability.
        
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        October 13, 2023 11:19am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Yes it was a false premise.
    
    I am not sure what you mean by “Christian world”. However I do recall many people in the West being stridently opposed to the invasion of Iraq.
    
    TBH I was of two minds. They got rid of a despot who was also killing thousands of his own people, especially the Kurds.
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:35am
    - Rusty
      
      @Benedict
      
      Ok, how about christians in the US ?
      
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      October 13, 2023 11:32am
- KH
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  The thing is Benedict is that they are right when they say “..that Israel brought the attack by Hamas on itself..”
  Israel over many years made this attack inevitable. It can happen again and worse.
  In the next week’s and months we will see true horror in Gaza.
  I suggest that Israel needs to change course to survive.
  I know many here won’t like this comment, but please consider the risks to Israel’s survival.
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:36am
  - Dave
    
    Change course to what?
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:41am
    - Matt Long
      
      Why can’t the Jews in Israel just commit collective suicide to bring peace to the Middle East? The plaintive wail of hand wringing victim blames across the world.
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:35am
      - Matt Long
        
        Blamers, dammit.
        
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        October 13, 2023 11:51am
  - All_on_Red
    
    Yep, by just being Jews, Hamas and Gazans are always going to keep killing them.
    They have said it many times.
    We should believe what they say when they say it.
    
    I think Israel is going to survive just fine.
    Looks like they are turning Gaza into a wasteland so they can have peace.
    Not sure where the Gazans are going to go.
    Egypt hates them (most of the ME does) and most likely will not let them in.
    The US might end up having to ship them to Iran.
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:44am
    - Che Guava
      
      “Looks like they are turning Gaza into a wasteland so they can have peace.”
      
      War is Peace.
      
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      October 13, 2023 9:54am
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Gaza was handed over to the “Palestinians” gratis and Jews were forcibly pulled kicking and screaming out by the Israeli govt. So Gaza should by now be a thriving and peaceful state co-existing with Israel. But what happened? The population there voted in violent “Islamist” totalitarians who keep launching terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians.
        
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        October 13, 2023 7:12pm
    - Matt Long
      
      It looks like that because the media use close angle photography to catastrophise events and get more viewers.
      I don’t need to see satellite pictures to know that the whole of Gaza isn’t being turned to rubble.
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:38am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    “I suggest that Israel needs to change course to survive.”
    
    OK. What do you want them to do?
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:37am
  - mawm
    
    KH – you do know that Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians in return for peace – a promise that have not honoured.
    
    Every time there is an outbreak of hostilities between them it is as a result of Hamas attacking Israeli civilians, and every time Israel responds there is the usual outcry of disproportionate response, for Israeli restraint and that it is Israel’s fault. Hamas on the other hand has in its charter that it wants to drive Israelis out of Israel. So what course do you suggest Israel follows? That Israel packs up and leaves? They just allow Hamas to kill their citizens? Pray do share your wisdom with us.
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:53am
  - Ra Henare
    
    It would appear that many commenters here are giving kneejerk reactions to a complex situation.
    
    Many do not know that Israel illegally annexed(UN declaration it was illegal.) large chunks of Palestine after Israel creation in 1948.
    ie the source of much Palestinian discontent.
    
    In the world of Western Propaganda, extremists do “”despicable things”” to get media attention.
    World Trade Centre?
    Bombing Busses and Underground in UK
    etc etc
    
    An interesting observation.
    
    The western reaction to few babies apparently having their heads chopped off but no reaction to late stage abortions which requires dismemberment of a living pre birth child.
    
    Not condoning anything. Just an outsiders view on the world
    
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    October 13, 2023 1:07pm
    - ISeeRed
      
      Most of “Palestine” is now Jordan. Why doesn’t Jordan let the “Palestinians” resettle there? Saudi Arabia is huge, rich and empty. What doesn’t it help out with resettlement? One thing I do know: New Zealand is not a Muslim country. I don’t want more Muslims here. Once they reach critical mass, it never goes well for the host country. EVER.
      
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      October 13, 2023 2:12pm
    - JimBobJoe
      
      “Many do not know that Israel illegally annexed(UN declaration it was illegal.) large chunks of Palestine after Israel creation in 1948.
      ie the source of much Palestinian discontent.”
      
      SO in 1948 what happened? Arab nations made a coordinated attempt to destroy the newly created Israel – and Israel fought them off and as part of that fighting off seized a bunch of land. Thats call spoils of war. And that has been repeated a number of times Golan, Sinai though SInai was given back to Eygpt for peace.
      
      And yes some land was grabbed illegally and some Israeli atrocities have occurred.
      
      But the Palestinians have been their own worst enemy – go ask the Hasemite Kings of Jordan who threw the Palestinians out after the PLO staged an attempt to kill the King and take over Jordan…
      
      The whole problem is intractable – the Jews have a historically valid claim on Judah and Israel going back to 1400 BC or earlier….. The Arab Palestinians have been in the area for hundreds of years following the ousting of most of the Jews from their homeland following one rebellion against the Romans too many…
      
      A two state solution in the area is the answer. But Hamas, PLO wont accept that instead they preach genocide under the slogan of From Jordan to the Sea.
      
      One final point – its notable the Arab world after trying numerous times to destroy Israel via conventional war have given up and instead sponsor terrorism instead…. Israel is a fact, it wont allow itself to be destroyed so we will all just have to watch massacre and counter massacre for a long, long time
      
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      October 13, 2023 2:15pm
- BarryB
  
  “Over the centuries more harm has been done to humanity by the administrators of religions than any other cause.”
  
  There is nothing wrong – in fact there are many positive reasons – with having a religious belief and following it. One big positive is self discipline. If everyone followed the rules in the ten commandments then society would be a much better place, and I could list many other benefits. But the input that administrators – or leaders – of the various religions have (and had) causes endless misery. The leaders of Islam constantly push the ‘There is only one religion and those who do not follow it must be eliminated’ line and thus we see the sort of behavior that is going on in Israel, and we get these stupid statements from the Muslim women group.
  In the UK we endlessly witness the self destructive behavior of the Archbishop of Canterbury who heads a church where they want to please everybody and this results in actually pleasing nobody and people wonder why the place is falling to bits.
  Northern Ireland is an example of the cost of the action of the administrators – where the church leaders pushed dumb ideas like underground brick walls in cemeteries so that Protestants and Catholics would be kept apart even in death – plain stupid.
  Fortunately it seems that the Christian world is slowly riding itself of rabid confrontations – but there are still plenty of oddballs: Destiny Church and exclusive Brethren being just two of them, but at least the various groups aren’t trying to kill each other or non-believers.
  In the Islamic world they have a long way to go before they experience peace. The two main Islamic beliefs systems – Sunni and Shia – hate each other and regularly try to slaughter each other. Both seem to believe that all non-Islamic people are evil and should be removed from the face of the earth.
  This endless desire for hatred comes from the top. Yes – there are regular claims that the Islamic world is all about peace – but some (many) the leaders preach hate.
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:44am
  - Damocles11
    
    If you are following a religion, surely that isn’t ‘self discipline’, that’s ‘imposed discipline’?
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:17am
    - Matt Long
      
      Whether it’s self discipline or imposed discipline depends on who hold the power to impose discipline.
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:49am
    - JimBobJoe
      
      No its choice to follow a religion and hence a self discipline…. at least in the West.
      
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      October 13, 2023 2:22pm
  - Rusty
    
    @Barry B
    
    Did christians in the bible belong to a religion or a faith?
    
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    October 13, 2023 11:37am
    - Don Beckett
      
      Both – not mutually exclusive.
      
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      October 13, 2023 2:51pm
- Observer of Life
  
  Like all things Muslim, I always get the feeling the women are doing the hard yards for the men. In this case, are they the mouthpiece of those “in charge” aka “the men”. We get a lot of comment from the women on all thing’s controversial, but not the men. Is that because it is perceived to be softer? Which in this case, they’re so wrong. How could a mother of any religion believe decapitating, let alone injuring a baby for “the cause” is acceptable?
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:06am
  - Matt Long
    
    That would depend in New Zealand whether the baby had proceeded through the magical canal of personhood.
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:51am
- Tom Hunter
  
  This is disappointing.
  …
  Yet now we have the Islamic Women’s Council of New Zealand issuing a statement essentially saying that Israel brought the attack by Hamas on itself.
  
  Actually this is entirely to be expected.
  
  Old-fashioned theories about why the Jews deserve what they get have been replaced by de-colonisation theory, which is very academic and which has the added bonus of also being weaponised against Europeans, European culture and the West in general, given all the Euro colonisation that’s happened.
  
  Speaking of weaponisation, This is what de-colonisation means, as explaind by various people, starting with this journo as she gets annoyed at her fellow Lefties:
  
  “what did y’all think decolonization meant? vibes? papers? essays? losers.”
  
  Exactly. Real decolonization is a physical process. It is about removing bodies from a place.
  
  Remember that the next time you meet somebody who votes for the Greens and especially anybody who votes for Te Paiti Maori.
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:15am
- Che Guava
  
  We can condemn violence without completely ignoring the reality and the causal relationships between events. There is a strong tendency to never attribute agency or to question the behaviour of the Israelis in the ongoing conflict, or Jews more broadly. It is always “irrational hatred of Jews” that is cited to explain anything that happens which effects them negatively. It’s always an external force or influence.
  
  You don’t have to support Hamas’ tactics to be able to look at the objective facts here re: Gaza. For around the last 15 or so years, about 2 million Palestinians have literally been fenced into an area about 5 miles across and 25 miles long, with anything or anyone coming into or out of the area having to pass through checkpoints manned by Israelis. Power, food and other resources are restricted and controlled, and Palestinians are routinely killed by the IDF.
  
  Obviously, these conditions are one of the main contributing factors to the recent outbreak of violence. The violence is condemnable, but the motivations for the response are perfectly rational on any sober assessment. If you treat people like “animals” and routinely describe them as such, then don’t be surprised when they eventually bite back.
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:15am
  - All_on_Red
    
    Cool propaganda Bro
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:00am
  - Ehlana
    
    Che, I get that Israel is blockading Gaza, but Gaza also has a land border with Egypt. So, what I don’t understand is why Hamas (who are the current government in Gaza) haven’t developed trade links with Egypt (a Muslim-majority country) as a counter to relying on Israel.
    
    And how effective can this blockade be if weapons are constantly get through it to be lobbed at Israel?
    
    To me, these are stumbling blocks to the blockade argument. What would happen in Gaza if Hamas stopped attacking Israel and used its blockade defeating methods to improve life for the Palestinians there? Has anyone thought of trying that?
    
    And no, I don’t think Israel is blameless – settlements in occupied territories don’t make any sense to me either.
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:07am
    - All_on_Red
      
      Don’t forget the Port and their own fishing grounds.
      The 30,000 Gazans who worked in Israel every day
      And the underground Aquifer of water which Hamas ended up polluting and stealing the pipes for Rockets
      One could go on.
      Lol
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:11am
  - Local Miller
    
    There is so much that’s false or misleading in this.
    The reason Israel search those crossing the border is because they have had so much experience with terrorists coming into Israel from Gaza.
    “Power, food and other resources are restricted and controlled” BS. Gaza basically doesn’t produce anything, and they could get food from other sources and import through their port, but they don’t. The depend on Israel, then try make it look like they are being forced into this situation. This is of Hamas’ own making. Don’t try blame Israel.
    And this lie: “Palestinians are routinely killed by the IDF” The only Palestinians being killed by Israel are terrorists. And using “routinely” makes it sound like the IDF walk around killing people just because they can.
    Che Guava, you really need to get a grip on the reality in Israel and along it’s borders.
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:28am
    - Che Guava
      
      I do have a grip on the reality in Israel and along it’s borders, and because it’s a reality that many don’t want to hear or don’t understand, my opinions on this topic are apparently quite unpopular. But truth isn’t a matter of popularity.
      
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      October 13, 2023 11:17am
  - Manu-Rau
    
    2 million people living in an area of 50 square miles? That’s a lower population density than Tokyo, Hong Kong, Singapore and most cities in China. For some reason, they manage fine, and certainly don’t go around trying to kill people.
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:37am
    - Taieri
      
      That’s a lower population density than Tokyo, Hong Kong, Singapore and most cities in China.
      ————-
      
      Most of these places, apart from Singapore, have a hinterland. Singapore has a great location.
      Gaza has none of these things.
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:49am
    - Che Guava
      
      “That’s a lower population density than Tokyo, Hong Kong, Singapore and most cities in China. For some reason, they manage fine, and certainly don’t go around trying to kill people.”
      
      The population density isn’t really the key issue, it’s the fact that the Palestinians are enclosed and controlled by an openly hostile Israel and a client-state of the US and Israel in the form of Egypt.
      
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      October 13, 2023 11:20am
      - Lance
        
        Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
        You are asserting Egypt is a puppet of the US?
        
        Fuck me… is this a deliberate parody account?
        
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        October 13, 2023 11:36am
      - Che Guava
        
        That’s exactly what I’m saying. Why do you think they are no longer an enemy of Israel, whereas they have fought wars in the past? The former Islamic enemies of Israel have either made deals with them (and by implication, the US) or have been regime-changed by the US on their behalf. Who are the holdouts? Principally Iran and Syria (and Palestine, of course, to the extent that it is a coherent political entity). Anyone with a decent grasp of geopolitics knows this.
        
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        October 13, 2023 3:56pm
      - kevn
        
        che… So who are all/were those thousands that work in Israel?
        
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        October 13, 2023 4:02pm
  - KH
    
    Exactly right CHE. The attack was inevitable, Unless something changes there will be more attacks, even more dangerous.
    
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    October 13, 2023 12:15pm
    - Che Guava
      
      Clearly, the bigger aim is war with Iran as the missing piece of the chessboard, along with Syria which they have failed at so far. Everyone else has been bought off or overthrown. However, if the Israelis go too hard on Gaza, they run a real risk of a unified Islamic coalition turning against them.
      
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      October 13, 2023 4:01pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Che Guava: “There is a strong tendency to never attribute agency or to question the behaviour of the Israelis in the ongoing conflict, or Jews more broadly.
    
    Explain “or Jews more broadly” . I think you’ve given your rotten game away there.
    
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    October 13, 2023 7:54pm
- kiwikidsnz
  
  https://youtu.be/zsNj8DiJv-A?feature=shared
  
  Israel is reaping what it has sowed for several generations, with the connivance & support of the UK & USA. Consider how you’d react if they had instead decided to unilaterally make the South island another peoples homeland.
  
  No excuses for wilfully murdering innocents – on both sides.
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:22am
  - Libertarians are right
    
    It’s closer to making the Chatham Islands a home for Moriori. I’m not sure if there is still a Moriori presence in the Chathams though? Jews have always lived in Israel. They have been persecuted and mistreated as a minority for a few hundred years, but they’ve always been there.
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:41am
    - Che Guava
      
      The problem is, the Arabs/Muslims have lived there for just as long, and as your comment implies, they have been the majority. It doesn’t matter what historical connection the Jews claim and how valid it may be, there is the practical obstacle that others already live there too.
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:00am
      - All_on_Red
        
        Saying this is about land is disingenuous.
        And pointless as Israel isnt going anywhere.
        This is a religious war. The objective is to get rid of the ‘Great Satan’, and the way Iran and Hamas want to do that is Genocide ‘From the River to the Sea’.
        
        There are many other Countries in the ME who are quite happy to live alongside Israel.
        The Gazan could have had prosperity. Look at other Coastal cities (Monaco!) but they have chosen Jihad.
        Well FAFO how that works out
        
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        October 13, 2023 10:20am
      - mawm
        
        Che – The Temple Mount is a holy site to Jews being the site of the first Temple of the Jews thousands of years before Islam entered the figment of Muhammad’s imagination. And as is their usual practice conquering Muslims build their mosques on the sites belonging to other religions. The Jews probably have every right to claim it back but have shown amazing restraint.
        
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        October 13, 2023 11:09am
      - Ehlana
        
        Isn’t that why the early UN partitioned the British mandate into two countries? To try to accommodate both groups?
        
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        October 13, 2023 11:26am
      - NothingLeft
        
        In the end it makes no difference. Israelis are not going to disappear or hand back any territory (unless nuked, which is likely to happen in next few decades as nuclear weapons become more common) – they are vastly more competent than the Arabs they have displaced.
        
        Israel will slowly (or rapidly as with Gaza now) squeeze the Palestinians out, and will likely ultimately succeed as Palestinians give up and depart.
        
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        October 13, 2023 12:29pm
      - Libertarians are right
        
        Ehlana – yes but large numbers of “Palestinians” moved out for a bit so their neighbours could wipe out Israel. It failed and Israel took more land to shore up its borders (Israel’s mandated middle is very narrow and extremely easy to split the country in half). The claims of “occupied land” stems heavily from that.
        
        I find the complete lack of discourse re the formerly Christian country of Lebanon to be disappointing too (as proof of hypocrisy, not whataboutism).
        
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        October 13, 2023 1:03pm
      - Che Guava
        
        “Saying this is about land is disingenuous.
        And pointless as Israel isn’t going anywhere.
        This is a religious war.”
        
        This is completely self-contradictory: it’s not about land, it is a religious war, but then Israel isn’t going anywhere (i.e. not leaving the land that is obviously at the heart of the dispute).
        
        This is a territorial dispute with religious overtones, not the other way around.
        
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        October 13, 2023 2:58pm
- krazykiwi
  
  This is a well reasoned article: Sacrificed for the cause: why no Arab countries are coming forward to provide safe haven to Gaza’s civilian population..
  
  The author argues that Hamas have been cleverly manipulated into turning all Gaza into victims of Iran’s strategic interests in the region, notably dead-ending the Saudi’s plans to joing Bahrain and UAE in having an economic and collaboration agreement with Israel.
  
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  October 13, 2023 12:45pm
- Ra Henare
  
  Maybe some perspective behind the ISlamic Womens Council.
  
  https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/whats-the-israel-palestine-conflict-about-a-simple-guide
  
  PS. there were no beheaded babies. The beheaded was an IDF soldier.
  
  Propaganda is rife in any conflict. That includes our elections when Hipkins lies when he says NZ is doing well in GDP per capital.
  
  Love the NZ media glorifying a NZ born(left NZ when a toddler) Jewish Soldier. Will they do a glorification piece on aa NZ Born Palestinian civilian killed in the conflict….Thort not
  
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  October 13, 2023 2:13pm
Vinicius

My brickbats and bouquets for the election campaign. These are in no particular order. I expect some down ticks!!

BOUQUETS

– Winston Peters for running a campaign where his experience showed.
– Christoper Luxon for trying to talk policy and not losing his cool in the daily pressers where the media were very biased.
– David Seymour for not being afraid to speak his mind on issues that others wouldn’t go near.
– James Shaw, I don’t agree with his policies but he knew how handle himself debates without being a rude little jerk.

BRICKBATS

– Hipkins for being rude in the debates and coming across like a sore loser. Did everything but run on his and Labour’s record.
– Winston Peters for not being able to elucidate in any detail what his party’s policies are.
– National for making a hash of re going into coalition with NZ First and Winston Peters. Too much mixed messaging.
– Te Pati Maori for having screwy and divisive policies.
– Marama Davidson for coming across like an immature 15-year-old school girl in debates.
– The media for being very biased and in the tank for the left throughout.
– The Electoral Commission for not getting out voting papers in a timely manner.
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October 13, 2023 8:05am
- Damocles11
  
  Down-ticked for giving a bouquet to the rude and vile James Shaw, who is an obnoxious commie creep.
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:17am
  - Vinicius
    
    Uptick given for being honest and funny!
    
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    October 13, 2023 8:22am
    - Damocles11
      
      Up-ticked.
      
      [If everyone on KB made posts as incisive as yours, it would rapidly become a waste of time. Please add some value. mod.]
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:18am
  - sirknz
    
    Shaw always comes across to me as that weird uni student who would turn up at at a high school party with cider.
    
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    October 13, 2023 1:59pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  Just on the last point, the easy vote card is not a “voting paper”. I decided to vote on impulse when I was passing a polling place. Finding me on the electoral roll took the guy 30 seconds.
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:22am
  - Vinicius
    
    That’s correct Benedict. I should have said Easy Vote Cards.
    
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    October 13, 2023 8:33am
  - peterwn
    
    Possibly the timetable is too tight with possibly insufficient time between close of nominations and completion of easy vote packs (which contain a schedule of all list candidates) and ballot paper printing. Reducing early voting to one week would give the Commission staff more breathing space while causing minimal inconvenience.
    
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    October 13, 2023 8:37am
    - Jethrod
      
      Um, we have known since the 19th of January when the election is to be held. Another stuff up was the Census.
      All reflects badly on Government departments and ultimately the government in power.
      
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      October 13, 2023 9:55am
      - Dudley Quaffquaff
        
        Yes, but we didn’t know until last month who was going to stand for election in each seat, or who was going to meet the deadline for enrolling to vote. That’s information that is needed before voting packs can be sent out.
        
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        October 13, 2023 12:40pm
    - Mark Hanley
      
      Rubbish.. The electoral commission had 3 years to plan and prepare.
      
      I’m not sure late voting packs are accidental.
      
      And I’m concerned people can enrol and vote without ID. The government already have systems in place (eg. passports) to pre check applicants credentials so why haven’t they been used for the election.
      
      The electoral commissions chances of scrutinizing and verifying all the votes/voters post the election is NIL.
      
      When i floated the idea of electoral fraud yesterday I got responses from people with an indepth knowledge of ready made excuses for the diabolical voter registration.
      
      Me thinks thou doth proteat too soon, too much, and with too much detail.
      
      It won’t change the result but Labour are earnestly trying to minimize the schlacking.
      
      7 1
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      October 13, 2023 10:15am
      - Ghost
        
        Any person enrolling now will make a special vote that won’t be counted until their information is confirmed.
        
        Not everyone has ID
        
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        October 13, 2023 10:20am
      - Mark Hanley
        
        Sure. Not everyone has ID but the same applies to people applying for passports.
        
        Passport applicatnts credentials are checked against birth certificates, bank statements, and utility bills, etc. All possible for the electoral commiaaion to check in the year leading into an election.
        
        And it is not just special votes. Fraudsters who know. someone’s name, address and dob can claim to be them and vote under their name in their electorate.
        
        As I said it won’t affect the result but it certainly seeds foul play!
        
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        October 13, 2023 12:04pm
      - peterwn
        
        Nominations do not close three years before the election. Final election arrangements (eg printing) cannot commence until nominations close unless the Commission can procure a suitable fortune teller with crystal ball – then an election would not be necessary anyway.
        
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        October 13, 2023 12:07pm
      - Mark Hanley
        
        Wtf have nominations got to do with enrolling to vote.
        
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        October 13, 2023 4:04pm
    - HeatherW
      
      The easy vote cards list the electorate and the page and line number from the printed roll of the name of person listed on the card. These rolls cannot be printed until after the rolls close and are checked. This election the electoral rolls closed on 10th September. Changes after rolls close would require a special vote e.g. new enrolments, change of address etc.
      
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      October 13, 2023 12:21pm
    - sirknz
      
      I had a job some years ago where we sent direct mail donation requests to ~120k people all over the country. We had different splits based on the previous amounts given. It was less than two weeks for the data to be pulled from the system, all the cards to be sent out, and donations to start coming in.
      
      For the easy vote packs, the printers should have been set up ahead of time and the rough numbers for each electorate would have been known. Looking at the supplied documentation, most of it would have been preprinted blanks and the glossy pamphlet most certainly would have been printed months ago. Same deal with voting forms. These would be preprinted blanks with the details added ahead of early voting.
      
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      October 13, 2023 2:33pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Not fused about Shaw. He talks in riddles and does not answer the questions asked.
  Winston Peters another who I can’t stand. Yes he has shown his experience at being how slippery he is.
  Upticked.
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:26am
  - cmm
    
    Shaw can do that because he never actually has to deal with anything real.
    
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    October 13, 2023 8:52am
    - nathie
      
      You mean like claiming an unfinished degree at VUW to gain entry to higher study and then gain employment!
      
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      October 13, 2023 9:05am
  - Vinicius
    
    Most of the voters who support Winston Peters unfortunately are my generation (65+) who should know better.
    
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    October 13, 2023 8:59am
    - Hollyfield
      
      My parents, late 70s and mid 80s, were planning to vote for Winston but have completely gone off him in the last week to 10 days. Now voting Act.
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:21am
- krazykiwi
  
  Winston Peters for running a campaign where ~~his experience showed~~ he leveraged the gullibility of voters in precisely the same way as he did the last election, and the one prior, and the one prior etc.
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:35am
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Definition of of a politician, KK
    
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    October 13, 2023 8:52am
  - Vinicius
    
    Ardern leveraged the gullibility of voters in 2017 and 2020. Soon has it got too hot in the kitchen she was gone and left NZ in a right royal shambles.
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:41am
Tomtoddy

The MSM stoop to new depths of smug, self-aggrandisement this morning desperate for some modicum of affirmation praising themselves for election campaign coverage. In a sort of up-yourself, hi-fiving session all the journalists get a nice hug for their contribution toward independence and professionalism.

The $55 million we shovelled into their coffers got a mention – the last vestige of conscience??? – as NOT being a factor in biased writing. What self serving, immature tripe. https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/one-vote-for-the-media/ar-AA1i6HRM?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=EDGEXST&cvid=7bb80bc5997941ae980b9cc77b24e941&ei=10
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October 13, 2023 8:10am
- Simon
  
  The amount of the corrupt payments by Labo via NZ on Air to MSM was closer to $100 million. The $55 million was additional to usual round of corrupt payments.
  
  Weak & pathetic National will keep NZ on Air intact. National will continue to grovel before those who received the corrupt payments.
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:29am
  - Bridgenag
    
    Remember those awful advertisements for covid and road crashes or something…….About the time I stopped watching
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:00am
  - NothingLeft
    
    Labour have also doubled govt advertising to $125 million a year – funneled into their media mates pockets to fund their Labour propaganda machine
    
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    October 13, 2023 12:31pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  Have a taxpayer funded Friday night beer, MSM.
  
  With luck, it will be your last.
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:54am
- Clyde
  
  Absolutely spot on comment. The MSM have a great deal to learn about objectivity BUT WILL NOT DO SO. This crop of “journalists” are, in the main, fresh out of an education system that has required them to adopt left-leaning positions.
  
  The absolute key to New Zealand’s success in the future will be the total clearing out of the entire education sector for EC to Universities. The Department of Education is riddled with the ideologies of the “maori are always right” sector and teacher education is so social manipulation aligned that all effective education is rendered impossible.
  
  Only one way to deal with the Universities and that is to stop all funding associated with courses and departments that are similarly infested with the sort of nonsense being rammed down the throats of those attending. He Puapua and similar programmes of BS tripe were all funded by Universities by activists such as Jacinta Ruru. Defunding the BS will change their directions.
  
  Journalism is but one of the many vocations that have been infiltrated by the BS – the key to reversing the trend is the education sector.
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:02am
  - Sacha
    
    I think it was yesterday that I heard a chap on a sports show giving his OPINION on the situation in Israel. It occurred to me that once upon a time such matters were discussed by people who had some knowledge of the topic.
    I think that sports ‘hosts’ should stick to what they KNOW something about.
    I mean, I don’t comment on football of any sort . . . . .
    
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    October 13, 2023 11:45am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Hahahaha…
  
  Looks like our MSM journos can’t tell spin from gyration.
  
  https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/rob-macculloch-nz-media-spins-the-imf-gdp-figures-in-labour-s-favor
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:46am
- In Vino Veritas
  
  Tim Murphy. ‘Nuff said.
  I did laugh when he included Moana Maniapoto as a “professional”, and Sean Plunkett and Peter Williams with the “fringest, wackiest parties and causes”. I’d suggest that says more about Murphy (and how much stead anyone should put in anything he says) than Plunkett, or Williams.
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:59am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Stop Co-Governance. Julian Batchelor.
This is from later yesterday that I missed.

https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/who-should-you-vote-for-we-examined-each-party-and-their-stance-on-co-governance/

The Labour Party is missing, it that because they still have no Policies? At least there is a link to National Policies. Clearly Labour was going to steal National Policies – as they have none of their own!
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October 13, 2023 8:16am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  This is today’s post from Stop Co-Governance.
  It was put up yesterday
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:26am
Lenticular

May God have mercy on our country and give us good leaders rather than the ones we deserve.

And may the election itself go smoothly and be clean.
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October 13, 2023 8:19am
penguincouple

Ways (that sound outrageous but not utterly impossible) for the Left to win this election:

1. Labour pulling out of all electorate races, asking supporters to give their electorate vote to Greens or TPM, and create a ridiculous number of overhangs.

2. The Left collectively announces that Chris Hipkins is stepping down as the Leader of the Coalition and installing Chloe Swarbrick as the new Jacinda and bank on another mania.

3. Bribing Winston with baubles… … truckloads of that. This man is, as Seymour said, the least trustworthy politician. He will do anything for power and at his age of 7x, why would he even care for any public backlash and future electoral consequences?

4. Newly identified way (and I stress readers to take this with a sense of humour and with no disrespect to the families of Neil) – somehow “persuading” one of the candidates to “drop out” of a Labour sure-win electorate to force multiple by-elections later on and create massive overhangs.

These all sound ridiculous because usually one would like to think they can have faith in the intelligence of the general public to punish such exploitation. Not quite anymore for me seeing Labour still manage to garnish around 30% support after wrecking the country for 6 years, and NZF hovering above 5% despite being the reason this government got in without winning the bigger chunk of votes in the first place.

Good luck to us all this weekend. May God bless New Zealand.
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October 13, 2023 8:21am
Frank the tank

Whatever happened to Matthew Tukaki?

I thought he would be front-and-center this election telling us how to vote….
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October 13, 2023 8:22am
- KH
  
  Tukaki is probably cleaning toilets now in a mine camp in WA. Well hopefully.
  He outrageously claimed to speak for Maori but got caught out. Had to happen. And the CV padding bit him back.
  The media would broadcast anything he said for far too long. Now they pretend they didn’t. Shockers.
  
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  October 13, 2023 12:26pm
Damocles11

‘Brace yourselves, the next government will be even worse’, writes overly-dramatic attention seeker & Leftist commentator Matthew Hooton. He seems to have left the reservation since his failures vis a vis Todd Muller. What a strange chap.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/election-2023-brace-yourself-national-set-to-outdo-labours-tragicomedy-matthew-hooton/XCUDVUVIQZE3FG2YIZLIJGNSJQ/
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October 13, 2023 8:22am
- Suze Wainwright
  
  PR agents have to limelight themselves somehow
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:42am
- Jethrod
  
  A real turncoat is the said Mahooton. (see what I did there)
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:04am
graham

Some people who watch One News (myself included – SWMBO insists) noticed on Sunday that a Labour Party attack ad (featuring Winston Peters with Chris Luxon tucked in his top pocket, and the words “If National win, you lose”) appeared as a backdrop to a weather report on the 6pm bulletin on Sunday.

(Paywalled article: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/media-insider-7-political-media-experts-5-questions-nrl-defamation-case-production-gremlins-at-tvnz-stuff-nzme/UL2B3RRX4NEJPIAN7WQ7CUOMSU/ )

According to the article, those people who noticed this and happened to wonder just what on earth was going on are “conspiracy theorists” (which appears to be currently the medias favourite derogatory term, used to denigrate just about anybody they don’t like).

Naturally, TVNZ claim that “the image was shown in error”, having been used in the previous story.

Sure. The image was shown “in error”. Twice.

Thing is, I could almost believe that, but the fact that they proceed to slam anybody who noticed and commented on this as “conspiracy theorists” is just childish. How many times have the media noticed “errors” which they then gleefully leap on and blow up out of all proportion?
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October 13, 2023 8:23am
cmm

A naive Aotearoan pro-Palastiniaan dupe gets educated by an Arab. Worth a watch:

https://www.facebook.com/YosHaddad/videos/1354502338663818/?extid=WA-UNK-UNK-UNK-IOS_GK0T-GK1C&mibextid=ep6mZa
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October 13, 2023 8:24am
Grunter

“They know there is a big problem!”

Common discussion topic last night with the boys having a few beers (old mates that I haven’t seen for a couple of years).

Completely unsolicited by me, several told the group of their recent experiences with our shitty health services. Three seperate stories to do with heart problems over the past 6 mths. The interesting bit, all said they were repeatedly asked by different Dr’s and nurses…
“So, when did you last have the COVID vaccination?”

Now why would they ask that question…..repeatedly???

It just so happens all 3 had been ‘boosted’ within 2 mths, which straight away raised the eyebrows of the Dr’s

Dr’s used to only ask things like “Do you smoke? Drink?” etc

Maybe, just maybe the reality is hitting the wall of deceit ??
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October 13, 2023 8:28am
- JimBobJoe
  
  Just in time for National to carry the can of:
  
  1/ Get to the root cause
  2/ finding the money to fund more heart treatments
  
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  October 13, 2023 3:45pm
Bridgenag

hamas me no questions, i’ll tell you no lies- from bad cattitude.
what if this attack was not to help the palestinians but rather to throw them to the wolves to break up any potential deals and shore up power for iran?

hamas just threw palestine under the bus in brutal fashion by committing atrocities sure to generate the most severe of reprisals. and it was not done to protect or promote palestinians. it was done to cause them instant, deadly harm because that is in the best interests of iran, the paymaster who has been calling the tune. and those interests diverge greatly from those of the palestinian people.

https://open.substack.com/pub/boriquagato/p/hamas-me-no-questions-ill-tell-you?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
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October 13, 2023 8:30am
- Libertarians are right
  
  Of course it is. Gaza exists as it does for one reason – to destroy Israel. It could have been a Singapore but the intent has always been to use those people as a weapon against Israel. It is disgusting and evil and 100% the fault of the Islamic supremacists in charge.
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:49am
nathie

19,925 people voted in the NZ Herald’s poll on who “won” last night’s leaders debate and 70% declared Chris Luxon to be the winner.

Although the poll isn’t scientific, Luxon’s 70% figure is more than double Hipkins’ 30% and is worth taking note of.

But still the MSM say that Hipkins won the debate! Meethinks the MSM are suffering from Labour Stockholm Syndrome!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/election-2023-tvnz-debate-the-final-showdown-between-national-leader-christopher-luxon-and-labour-leader-chris-hipkins/IEDH7ML6LVEBFJFWEY3ZHEF7KM/
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October 13, 2023 8:30am
Simon

Rampant gun crime. You would think that after the Tarrant murders that any crime involving guns would be absolute taboo in NZ. No the Tarrant murders were used to go after lawful gun owners. The crims using guns are tolerated and its not even a second thought.
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October 13, 2023 8:37am
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  Speaking of guns, the neighbour who shot the dog that killed the woman in Moerewa will no doubt be investigated for having an unlicenced gun.
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:17am
  - Matt Long
    
    So how’s that microchipping going? Oh it’s going great, saving lives and property everywhere, just like ankle bracelets.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/family-mourn-elderly-moerewa-woman-killed-in-northland-dog-attack/MWHEBEZ3HJCDNGXU33HHCBHOQU/
    
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    October 13, 2023 11:29am
  - sirknz
    
    It’s alright, the gun was probably on the register…
    
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    October 13, 2023 2:40pm
Damocles11

Cutting off all sources of government funding to the rabid Left wing mainstream media must be one of the first priorities for the incoming government. They have cooked their own goose with their behaviour.
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October 13, 2023 8:38am
- thirteenstars
  
  Forget about it.
  
  I’ve read National supporters on this very blog say there’s nothing wrong with the PIJF, we just need to get rid of those pesky Treaty obligations in it.
  
  They don’t get it. They never will.
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:15am
Maggie Pie

Having watched the so-called Debate last nite, I’m convinced Chippie has been spending far too much time hanging out with Shaneel.

To me the decision is easy, would you rather have a Schoolboy, or a Statesman, as your Prime Minister?

Now all you need to decide, is what you want out of life….

>>> More Tax, More Government, More Crime, More Agnes’s ?

OR

>>> Less Tax, Less Government, Less Crime, Less Agnes’s ?

The decision is yours…. vote 2 Ticks Bloo.
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October 13, 2023 8:40am
- kevn
  
  Maggie… Agnes as our typical NZer. No a leftie plant. More like your average labour type.
  https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/11/auckland-woman-owes-government-188-000-after-lying-about-relationship.html#lnnl77efhujoba8urih
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:45am
- Damocles11
  
  So we should vote for National?
  
  Yet you yourself will not vote?
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:51am
- krazykiwi
  
  A mostly fair dichotomy, but you won’t get ‘Less government’ from National. National governments are only slightly less bad at growing the state than are Labour governments.
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:59am
- Cassandra
  
  Plus National will give us more ToW too. Party vote ACT.
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:06am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Yes,
    Luxon will try to heal the maori activists/medias lovechild that they have named Racism.
    
    He will strive to appease the activists in the vain hope that they will be satisfied and will stop calling everybody else racist.
    
    What he will achieve will be multiplying the length of the gravy train and making every seat first class.
    
    The maori activists are laying low because they know Luxon is vulnerable and will give them more than the current régime .
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:11am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

This came to me a few days ago from Dane Giraud, Former Council Member Free speech Union. I could not find this on their website to get a link. Images are missing.

Dear Steve,

You may remember me from my time as a Council member of the Free Speech Union (and may even recognise the handsome face below!) It is great to be speaking to you again, and to know that the Union has only gone from strength to strength.

I am extremely grateful to the Union who invited me to share with you a very personal story.

I’ll be honest, I messed up.

Allow me to explain… Along with being a passionate free speech supporter, I am a member of New Zealand’s Jewish community.

You will be aware of the savage attacks in Israel by Hamas that occurred on Saturday. This was the deadliest pogrom since the Holocaust. As I write, over 1,200 Israelis have been killed. The scenes have been harrowing, to the point where, perhaps like you, I now cannot bring myself to watch any of the clips.

The massacres have left the global Jewish, and indeed the wider community, reeling. 260 young people were mowed down at a music festival. Hamas fighters traveled house to house, butchering entire families, including children. IDF soldiers have found the bodies of decapitated Jewish babies. About 150 Israelis were taken back into Gaza, including children. Words cannot capture the barbarity we all witnessed.

I was in a state of absolute shock over the weekend, picking up information on the tragedy as it rolled in, when I saw on Twitter a repost from Massey University Dean’s Chair of Communications, Mohan Dutta. In the Tweet, Dutta endorsed the idea that Hamas had every right to ‘retake the land’. The Tweet struck me as particularly callous as events were still unfolding, so I reposted myself, voicing my disapproval.

The following day, I saw Dutta had seen my repost and was inspired enough by it to write a blog about it. In a close to impenetrable diatribe, Dutta attacked my tweet as ‘racist’, but what really got my blood boiling was this passage:

His words, not mine: this man was calling mass murder a powerful model for decolonizing resistance and was expressing his support for it. Remember, this is a state-funded academic writing this, paid for by you and me, expressing full-throated support, and glee, for brutal antisemitic violence, in a very public blog.

Enraged, I took to Twitter and tagged his employer, Massey University, asking them how it could possibly be that such an individual could be working for them and why we – the taxpayers – were paying for him. I was clearly trying to cancel this man. When some Tweeters called out the hypocrisy of my having been a free speech activist who was now trying to cancel a man for speech I didn’t like, I denied this, and even managed to cook up a fair defense of my position. But it was all phony baloney.

Cancelling this man was exactly what I was trying to do – and I was wrong.

Pretty soon, I was feeling ashamed and mad at myself that this man had made me compromise my values. A phone call with a friend and Council Member of the Free Speech Union helped me reflect on this even more: My instinct to cancel Dutta had been natural. This is why hate speech laws and censorship make sense to many people. This man hurt me deeply by expressing joy at the brutal mass murder of my people, and my instinct was to hurt him back, to punish him, to take something off him.

If you think back hard enough, Steve, you may have felt this instinct too. I would say we all have. But, after cooling down, I understood that silencing Dutta wouldn’t make the Jewish people safer. It wouldn’t be protecting us.

In fact, it would likely make us far less safe.

An analogy came to me: whenever we take a child to a doctor, we say to them, “Remember to tell the doctor exactly where you feel sick!”. Why? Because medical professional or not, these people aren’t mind-readers, so can’t always see, say, an ache in your arm. If they don’t know about it, they can’t fix it. Free speech exists to fulfill a similar function in our society.

Dutta feels empowered to speak due to our liberal democratic system, and because he does speak, we can properly diagnose his worldview and start to address it. Dutta spreads his antisemitism under the banner of ‘decolonisation’, a vogue term in progressive academia, but few, if any of us, know what it really means. Well, for Dutta, it seems to mean the murdering of Jews.

How many academics agree with Dutta’s interpretation of decolonisation? Is this position the norm, now? Or is he a complete outlier?

How would we ever know if we silence such academics and make them share their thoughts at a whisper level; spoken only in sealed-off ideological bubbles? How could people develop powerful counterarguments to his and other views without exposure to them, fortified by debate and direct engagement?

What I needed to do was to amplify his claims not try to silence them, so that we can collectively wrestle with the totality of his worldview, to fully understand them, and to produce counterarguments that can be readily available to any of the young learners Dutta may be seeking to influence.

The re-emergence of Holocaust denial, though distressing, can in turn demand stronger Holocaust education to counter it, while laws against Holocaust denial can remove an urgency to keep this past alive in hearts and minds. We are naive if we think we can create a society without offensive, and at times even dangerous, ideas which we will have to counter. This is how we grow intellectually and morally.

I believe Dutta to be a deeply unpleasant person, generally (some of you may have followed other recent exposure he’s had to public scrutiny). And as a Jew, I have even less reason to view him with any generosity. But I’m back baby!

After feeling the very human impulse to cancel someone and working through it, I would defend Mohan Dutta’s right to free speech; indeed, it is vital, because sunlight will always be the best disinfectant for troubling ideas, while bacteria grows in society’s moist, dark corners.

To censor is a very human impulse, but it doesn’t make us safer. If there are bigots, or extremists, or even terrorists out there, we need to know. Don’t make the mistake I did and give them legitimacy or validation by trying to suppress them.

Speak out, instead. Our voices are more powerful than we often believe.

Dane Giraud
Former-Council Member
Free Speech Union
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October 13, 2023 8:40am
- kiwikidsnz
  
  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67083432
  
  Why BBC doesn’t call Hamas militants ‘terrorists’
  
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  October 13, 2023 8:58am
  - All_on_Red
    
    Do you think Hamas are Terrorists?
    Was that a Terrorist attack?
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:23am
    - mawm
      
      AoR –terrorism, the calculated use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective. (Britannica).
      
      What do think has just occurred?
      
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      October 13, 2023 11:23am
      - KH
        
        Like bombing apartment buildings in Gaza? 500 dead children.
        
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        October 13, 2023 3:05pm
- john1234
  
  Best way to deal with Dutta is to make sure everyone hears what he has to say. That way he cancels himself.
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:01am
  - Blog-aholic
    
    Follow Karl du Fresne’s encounters with Mr. Dutta.
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:30am
- Diogenes
  
  This is one of the best commentaries on free speech I have read. I am in awe of Dane.
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:52am
Prince

Headline on Stuff this morning.
‘Act won’t back med school’.
The truth, contained in the article but hidden 5 paras down, quote from Brooke Van Velden..
‘“We need to make every health dollar go further at this point. We’re not convinced that establishing a whole new medical school is a better option than expanding the two we already have. However, we’re open to listening to both sides.”

Still, I have to recognise that even Stuff has some self-awareness. They have ditched the anti-National/Act cartoons the last 3 days, replaced by some generic image. Back on Monday no doubt.

‘
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October 13, 2023 8:42am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Special grandma of the Labour Party.
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October 13, 2023 8:50am
Cassandra

Nota bene: Luxon confirmed yesterday that he would not agree to ACT’s policy of a referendum on the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. NZ is condemned to a slide downhill to an ethnostate, just a little bit slower under a National PM.
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October 13, 2023 8:58am
- Benedict Yu
  
  It would be amusing if Winston insisted on such a referendum.
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:26am
- Chuck Bird
  
  Seymour should be civil to Peters and stop calling him untrustworthy and Peters would support him on a few issues.
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:40am
  - Libertarians are right
    
    Calling Peters untrustworthy is being civil.
    There are far more uncivil things that can be said about Peters that are 100% accurate.
    
    13 2
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    October 13, 2023 9:56am
    - Colville
      
      I could use a long list of banned nouns to accurately describe Mr Peters.
      
      6 0
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      October 13, 2023 10:25am
      - Jethrod
        
        One for every letter of the Alphabet:-
        A ….AR..
        B…. bar
        C….(remind me)
        etc
        
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        October 13, 2023 2:39pm
Gravelroad

I’m not sure that Hipkins’ unprofessional and cynical outburst against National MP Uffendell would have gone down that well with the old-school, traditional Labour voter.
Especially the older woman variety who think socialism is “kind” and respectful/respectable.
Sure, Hipkins’ strategy will have appealed to the hard core unionists and communists emanating from way back in the UK, but not the little old ladies from down the road here.
Some of them will be feeling a bit uncomfortable about a former Minister of Education behaving like a petulant, bullying school kid at playtime.
But as with everything Labour does, the ends always justify the means.
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October 13, 2023 8:58am
Maggie Pie

What hope for the State-of-Israel if this continues?

The next generation of Terrorists…..it’s truly frightening 🙁

https://twitter.com/Cooolwanyc/status/1712496227164586057
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October 13, 2023 9:01am
- Clyde
  
  As I’ve said before Maggie, education is the key to what happens to a country. The only difference between what is being taught to the Palestinian kids and our kids is the degree of division.
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:10am
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Clyde unfortunately far left lunatics have a death grip on education here and in the west in general. This has happened slowly but surely since the late 1960s.
    
    Did you by any chance attend RUE?
    
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    October 13, 2023 7:56pm
- krazykiwi
  
  That is heartbreaking. Kids who deserve a long, rewarding life have instead been brainwashed that “stabbing jews”, “driving over them [jews]” and “being a suicide bomber” is their destiny.
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:13am
- MCōs
  
  I distinctly remember an Irish priest from the local parish telling us how evil the Orange men were in Northern Ireland
  And they were!
  All the kids from our school used to go to the Murder House at a state school down the road where the Protestants tried to kill us!
  
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  October 13, 2023 2:18pm
  - MCōs
    
    A bit of Timaru history from 1879
    https://www.nzjh.auckland.ac.nz/docs/1994/NZJH_28_1_04.pdf
    
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    October 13, 2023 2:41pm
Benedict Yu

For decades, the United States has run a system to alert the public to missing or abducted children. It is called the “Amber Alert” system.

Now California has decided to introduce a separate alert system for black children only. This will be called the “Ebony Alert”.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/california-just-created-ebony-alert-find-missing-black-children-rcna119679

It leaves me lost for words. But I guess it is California. ☹️
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October 13, 2023 9:04am
- Blog-aholic
  
  Would there be an outcry of racist is they changed Amber to Ivory?
  
  The Amber alert came about because a little girl called Amber was kidnapped…..
  
  Does kidnapping now have a colour preference? Clown World 101.
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:32am
- Ehlana
  
  The Ebony alert will be used for missing black people aged 12 – 25.
  
  I guess the Amber alert system might cut off at 18, or whatever age people can leave home.
  
  Surely the answer to black children not being on Amber alerts is to put them on Amber alerts, not create a separate system.
  
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  October 13, 2023 1:56pm
robjonsco

lately when I look at YouTube or something on the internet I get Green Party adds popping up. At first this irritated me but now it amuses me as they are paying for it and will never vote for them. Dont get me started on all the mining, and energy consumption required to build and maintain the internet.
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October 13, 2023 9:15am
RichardF

I’m hoping someone with knowledge of the electoral system can help me out. If Hipkins wins Remutaka tomorrow and quits politics (because Labour are out), what happens in Remutaka? Would there be a by-election?
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October 13, 2023 9:16am
- Ghost
  
  By-election
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:19am
  - Libertarians are right
    
    A good riddance election more likely.
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:58am
  - Matt Long
    
    Like what happened when aunty Helen quit and that lovely young Jacinda got her seat.
    
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    October 13, 2023 11:38am
  - peterwn
    
    And Ginny well be eyeing the seat. Bish will probably wallop her in Hutt South and she would probably fail to get in on the list.
    
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    October 13, 2023 11:55am
    - Vinicius
      
      Hutt South is one of the most interesting of the electorate seats. And the party vote in the same seat.
      
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      October 13, 2023 1:59pm
    - Libertarians are right
      
      She may have to fight Mahuta for it (Mahuta isn’t on the list). Of course, the issue with the Maori seats is which candidate’s “supporters” are going to show up?
      
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      October 13, 2023 2:33pm
- Damocles11
  
  Surely people in Remutaka wouldn’t be stupid enough to re-elect that pathetic clown Hipkins?
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:31am
  - peterwn
    
    Unfortunately there is one born every minute. However the thought of Emma Chaterton taking out the seat is just so delicious.
    
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    October 13, 2023 11:53am
  - JimBobJoe
    
    Remutaka or as we used to call Rimutaka is a Deep Red seat – it covers Upper Hutt which has pockets of low income BUT stretches down in to State House central in Naenae and Taita plus working class Stokes VAlley….
    
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    October 13, 2023 3:54pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  yes
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:38am
Benedict Yu

Just a thought that kept percolating yesterday while I was driving to Central Otago.

If ACT ends up with less than 10 percent of the party vote, it will be a disastrous result for David Seymour.

Also, if Winston does go with National, I believe that he will insist on a coalition with National only. He will force National to deal with ACT. It will mean that ACT will get a few minor portfolios and no ACT Ministers will be in Cabinet.
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October 13, 2023 9:17am
- Opie
  
  Hence why we won’t know the election result for 6 weeks.
  
  Winston will make his demands, then go off fishing
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:55am
- Chuck Bird
  
  I and John Key think you are wrong about Winston. At his age, he is thinking of a legacy. If he makes unreasonable demands and forces a second election that would be his legacy.
  
  John Key was on with Hosking this morning.
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:00am
  - Ghost
    
    I agree, he wants to repair the damage of going with ardern and fix his legacy. I think we’ll know the got on the night.
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:04am
    - Colville
      
      Had a chat with a chap yesterday that put forward the argument that Winson has a huge grudge over how Labour lied to him and disrespected him, hiding information and policies, very specifically the Maori caucus within Labour.
      
      If true, it could make for a very large broom to sweep thru our legislation WRT Te Tiriti.
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:29am
      - Lance
        
        Nobody does utu like Winston
        
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        October 13, 2023 11:48am
  - Jethrod
    
    Promise him Foreign Affairs and a knighthood in 18 months and he will agree with anything.
    
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    October 13, 2023 2:48pm
- Damocles11
  
  You think NZ First will get a higher share of the party vote than ACT?
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:34am
- Libertarians are right
  
  The thing about ACT is a lot of people that aren’t actually ACT’s niche looked at them. Eventually, they moved back to National/New Zealand First. I hoped he’d keep them but it was a low chance.
  Covid has certainly hurt him of course as well.
  
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  October 13, 2023 2:37pm
emmess

DPF on Cam Slater’s radio show
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gyted_vLP78
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October 13, 2023 9:19am
- Swifty
  
  Thanks!
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:42am
- emmess
  
  I like Farrar’s suggestion at 17:00
  Of a small party running in a terminally ill person in a seat, and euthanising themselves.
  Given the TPM’s disdain for democracy, I think that would be a legitimate tactic in future, in seats that they have a chance in, in future.
  
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  October 13, 2023 11:19am
hullkiwi

For those of you who enjoy having recurring nightmares, or are insomniacs and need lots of reading to send you to sleep….

Well, Alex Holland is here to help, he has compiled his lists into a single website….

https://laboursfailures.com/

Labour voters should never be allowed to forget what they helped to do to NZ!
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October 13, 2023 9:22am
- krazykiwi
  
  Wow. That is a HUGE compilation. This one sticks in my craw:
  
  August 2023: The IMF now forecasts NZ will have the second worst economic growth in the world next year, just edging out Equatorial Guinea (which has been ripped apart by civil war).
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:37am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Corrections giving $100,000 for tattoo removal.
  I say no tattoos were removed.
  What are the chances of getting Chippie to sit down and start answering?
  
  Zilch, and too late. Maybe email it to him!
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:46am
  - Jethrod
    
    $100,000 for vasectomies would be far better value.
    
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    October 13, 2023 2:50pm
goNZ1

Online poll on NZHerald on who won the debate last night –
20,201 votes
30% Chippy
70% Luxon

all the media ” experts ”say Chippy won,which shows how out of touch they are!
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October 13, 2023 9:24am
- mogg
  
  Did they ever get around to asking Hipkins about Labour’s unsustainable levels of borrowing and debt,
  or was it all just ‘gotcha’ crap again.
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:37am
- hullkiwi
  
  Chippie & Labour are in trouble tomorrow, not helped by the the media (including RNZ’s attempt at statistical analysis of last night’s debate) continuing to tell voters that Labour is gaining momentum. Early voting suggests low turnout, which is bad news for Labour & co.
  
  The Herald poll result is not scientific, but there is no way National have that many trolls, members or programme bots to give that level of support to Luxon. Hence the underlying message is, Labour are in trouble.
  
  One post script before tomorrow & something for M. Woods to reflect on. Many months ago she predicted that this year’s election campaign would be a dirty election campaign.
  
  Well who brought us the dirty election campaign? M Woods, no less.
  
  National & Luxon have not fought a negative campaign because any number of focus groups and polls have told the National party that negative campaigning is a turn-off for voters.
  So, as results come in tomorrow evening….who will be reflecting on what went right and what went wrong with their respective campaigns….?
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:17am
  - Damocles11
    
    Vote Woods out! Hopefully the people of Wigram wake up to themselves and get rid of ‘KiwiBuild (non)reset’ Woods, one of the most useless cabinet ministers we have ever seen in the history of this country.
    Twyford, Michael Wood, Woods, Hipkins….surely they must all be shown the door by the voters.
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:38am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Vote her out but she is No 5 on the List.
      
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      October 13, 2023 10:50am
      - Captain Mainwaring
        
        She may well be but is looking increasingly like she will do a ‘Mr Creosote’ before the next election.
        
        5 0
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        October 13, 2023 12:00pm
      - imalwaysright
        
        Candidates standing in an electorate shouldn’t be on the list.
        
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        October 13, 2023 3:33pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    Early voting is normal. Higher than 2017, lower than the highly anomalous 2020 covid election.
    
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    October 13, 2023 3:58pm
Cassandra

“Israel publishes picture of baby murdered by Hamas.” Someone yesterday disputed the beheading of babies by Hamas. Above is the headline in the UK Telegraph. It happened all right. Islamic extremists are keen on decapitation. One can now understand all those calls for an end to the violence. Right after Israel terminates Hamas and its leadership. We’ll get to understand “with extreme prejudice”, for those with 50 year memories.
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October 13, 2023 9:41am
- All_on_Red
  
  It has been quite revealing viewing the comments of those who disputed the event.
  They are showing us who they are.
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:27am
  - krazykiwi
    
    I think it’s fine – wise even – to question the narrative we’re fed. In any conflict there will be parties keen to exploit the emotional triggers and/or entrenched beliefs of the spectators, and I have all too many times been conned into barking at passing cars. I have no view on this particular claim of barbarity because I have no stomach for the research needed to get a better idea of the facts.
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:55am
    - Ehlana
      
      Yes. I steeled myself to look at a video purportedly showing Israel troops beating people up. It turned out to show a few soldiers in a tussle with a few people, one of whom was a woman knocked to the ground by a solider. There was pushing and shoving going on, sure, but not what I understand by “beating up”. We seem to have more violent school age thugs in NZ.
      
      It struck me that advocates (for Palestine and other causes) want to make things sound as bad as possible to get your attention, on the basis you’ll read the headline rather than watch the video. The tactic backfires however, if the videos don’t deliver.
      
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      October 13, 2023 2:02pm
- Ghost
  
  Joe never saw photos
  
  Article
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:28am
Suze Wainwright

Harman in Politik believes south Auckland is going to hand Labour the election.

Labour strategists are spending all day there today creating benefit mega fear, thereby creating a 2005-type election result…
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October 13, 2023 9:46am
- Vinicius
  
  That’s why they planted that woman to ask that question about benefits in the debate last night.
  
  Also, isn’t Harman an old leftie journo going back to the days of David Lange and the 1984-90 Labour government?
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:05am
  - Suze Wainwright
    
    With Politik, I think he tries to market himself as completely unbiased and neutral but he definitely puts the boot into the National Party at every possible opportunity (often with the tedious ridicule stuff too).
    
    Much like the most of the msm, he takes unbridled joy at negative poll results for National and provides alternative counter spin for negative poll results for Labour.
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:32am
Scooter

I wonder what sentence this poor excuse for a mother will be given. It’s a never ending cycle of crime in these dysfunctional families.

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/crime/ram-raids-hamilton-mum-admits-shooting-at-police-to-help-kids-escape-arrest/
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October 13, 2023 9:48am
- Lance
  
  More pressy cards?
  
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  October 13, 2023 11:50am
Colville

I suppose one positive that could come out of Winston being in coalition would be that both ACT and NZF want the Treaty gone… and that could be very interesting in the next few years..!
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October 13, 2023 9:52am
- Drone
  
  In your dreams Colville, not a chance. The maori corporations would rebel as would the labour and green pollys. Plus there would be international condemnation from the WEF team.
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:23am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Which Treaty?
  There is nothing wrong with the original in Maori and the Littlewood Draft.
  It is the 1975 Waitangi Tribunal rogue version that has to be eliminated. Only then the Gravy Train of forestry and fisheries will be stopped.
  Forestry and fisheries were added in 1989 by Sir Hugh Kawharu.
  This is the version that two generations have been brainwashed with.
  
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  October 13, 2023 11:02am
  - Matt Long
    
    The “Principles” of the treaty.
    
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    October 13, 2023 11:42am
  - Colville
    
    I dont know where you get that idea from Steve…
    
    Her Majesty the Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the Chiefs and Tribes of New Zealand and to the respective families and individuals thereof the full exclusive and undisturbed possession of their Lands and Estates Forests Fisheries and other properties which they may collectively or individually possess so long as it is their wish
    
    Its in Te Papa… you can see the original online..!
    
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    October 13, 2023 2:44pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Colville.
      Watch and learn – are these all lies??
      Nobody seems to want to learn the truth. 53 minutes, but most will not watch 10.
      
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVgY03s6Tqc
      
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      October 13, 2023 5:47pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Just re-read that. You mention “Forest and Fisheries” They are not in the original version written in Maori, or the Littlewood Draft.
      What you have posted is the 1975 Waitangi Tribunal re-written version, with Forest and Fisheries inserted by Sir Hugh Kawharu. It was then messed with by Sir Geoffrey Palmer to further the confusion.
      We now have a Treaty which is believed by two generations. It is not the same as the original.
      I guess you did not look at the link I provided, by Julian Batchelor of Stop Co-Governance? Scared of the truth Colville?
      
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      October 14, 2023 9:12am
Vinicius

What might happen to Labour numbers in Parliament if they have a bad election night and who they could lose?

https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/10/13/jack-tame-bad-night-for-labour-could-be-disastrous-for-its-future/

I’m not a Jack Tame fan but the article is worth a read.
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October 13, 2023 10:03am
- plc
  
  I thought it was quite a superficial analysis… the words “No shit, Sherlock” came to mind.
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:19am
  - Colville
    
    and please please please let it happen…!
    
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    October 13, 2023 2:45pm
Cassandra

UK Telegraph: “It seems clear that for the fourth time since Hamas took over Gaza back in 2007, the IDF will go into the Strip on the ground. But this time, things are going to be different. The Israelis are going to attempt what they have never managed or even seriously tried: to actually eliminate Hamas, rather than “mowing the grass” as they have done before.” Hamas’ top leaders live in Qatar and other places, in 5 star hotels – I wonder if some silenced Uzis are on order?
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October 13, 2023 10:12am
- thirteenstars
  
  The Egyptian border is a problem.
  
  If the IDF can destroy Hamas infrastructure within Gaza the only way long-term to stop fresh jihadis and weapons from coming over the Egypt-Gaza border is to have a border within a border, one that Israel controls.
  
  Even that can only be temporary because for Israel to totally control all four sides of that strip is not a rational solution to the problem.
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:27am
- rockape
  
  Funny that the uk is sending a military package. Question, is it coming from Hereford?
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:34am
- MCōs
  
  I’ve never been to Israel or Gaza, but generally speaking there have been many instances of countries trying to root out organizations in this fashion and getting nowhere.
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:54am
  - Matt Long
    
    Unfortunately it like the greens, Rod Donald died and Fitzsimmons retired only to be replaced by even worse people. Israel may successfully kill the architects of this lot of atrocities but the hydra will grow more heads.
    
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    October 13, 2023 11:47am
  - Lance
    
    It worked in Malaysia.
    Isolate and protect the innocents and shoot the terrorist scum when they try to infiltrate.
    
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    October 13, 2023 11:53am
    - cmm
      
      What do you mean “worked”?
      
      I assume you are referring to the Malaysian Emergency. 12 years it took and dragged in the whole British Commonwealth.
      
      Sure, it got rid of the commies, but at a huge cost.
      
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayan_Emergency
      
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      October 13, 2023 2:32pm
      - Lance
        
        But it did work.
        The proposition was raised that there is no solution for insurgency/ terrorism, I suggest history teaches us otherwise.
        I never suggested it was going to be easy.
        
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        October 13, 2023 2:47pm
      - Keith White
        
        It’s always cost-effective overall to get rid of Communists.
        
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        October 13, 2023 3:55pm
  - cmm
    
    Fighting terrorists amongst a civilian population has never really worked well.
    
    It is going to be massively difficult in Gaza city. It is going to take house to house searching by infantry. This could be very costly in lives, slow, and incredibly antagonistic to civilians. The last factor is unfortunately likely to increase support for Hamas amongst the Gaza population.
    
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    October 13, 2023 1:11pm
    - Prince
      
      John Campbell and other media ‘experts’ say the ‘bed leg’ comment was a zinger and won Hipkins the debate.
      Would they take the same approach if, after Hipkins said he spent $600 a week on groceries, Luxon had ‘zinged’ back ‘but you’re separated, the wife and kids have left you, what on earth do you spend it all on ?’
      
      Just imagine the uproar ! What a zinger.
      
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      October 13, 2023 4:42pm
JackRabbit

…all the media ” experts ”say Chippy won,which shows how out of touch they are!

All the media ” experts ”say Chippy won, which shows how deep their snout are in the state media trough, and how much they fear the input pipe to feed trough being sealed up. Because then they will have to survive by telling the truth, a novel concept for which they are trained.
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October 13, 2023 10:19am
- Blog-aholic
  
  Media and experts is an oxymoron.
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:35am
- krazykiwi
  
  Speaking of the pipe being turned off, I see that The Washington Post, a Bezos-owned rag, is laying of 240 staff, that being 9.6% of their staff.
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:47am
  - Keith White
    
    “Faster, please.”
    
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    October 13, 2023 3:55pm
Maggie Pie

Just been doing my Spin-Bike workout while watching Aljaz.

Was surprised to hear there is currently 170,000 Americans in Israel!
They were reporting the US Government will soon begin operating 4 evacuation flights
a day for those who wish to leave.
The only hold up has been waiting for the State Department to decide wether the flights will be free-of-charge. SHEESH!!
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October 13, 2023 10:39am
- JimBobJoe
  
  Why does this surprise you Maggie? 6 Million Jews (according to Ben Shapiro) live in the USA, almost as many as live in Israel itself….. Many of them have family members in Israel and visit regularly, some visit to attend specific Rabbis lectures, some Americans retire to Israel, some go for business particularly in the High Tech area where Israeli firms are at the forefront of their respective Tech fields…. the two countries at the power elite level are intertwined quite deeply..
  
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  October 13, 2023 4:09pm
Blog-aholic

Scanning through some youtube today I came across a older CNN interview from 2014. It is an interview of a son of one of the founders of Hamas and is worth viewing to get an insight to what religeous ideology looks like.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KakxXN5Z-XI
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October 13, 2023 11:11am
Sparrow

I listen to our local radio station which has a short news broadcast every hour until 6pm. Has old time music and no political bs. Did not watch last night’s debate but apparently the public overwhelmingly had Luxon as the winner. Well on this short news update from 1ZB a Jason Wallis claimed Hipkins had won as he had got under the skin of Luxon. So our political journalists don’t consider policy or achievements and ignore public sentiment so chose the most obnoxious leader. Drain the Swamp that is the media. Unbelievable
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October 13, 2023 11:24am
- Gravelroad
  
  Even if Hipkins had “got under the skin of Luxon” so what?
  If that’s the best Hipkins can do then it doesn’t say much for him, his reputation or his suitability as a Prime Minister.
  The immature media is all about “gotcha” moments – which have been planned and paid for by the Labour Party.
  
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  October 13, 2023 12:47pm
  - Swifty
    
    I quite agree. The media want us to be focussed on trivia because they don’t want us looking elsewhere, where Labour is weakest.
    
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    October 13, 2023 1:25pm
  - kevn
    
    Gravel… I was waiting for Luxon to leave his podium, walk over to hipkins and tell him to just shut up for a few minutes.
    
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    October 13, 2023 4:12pm
    - Captain Mainwaring
      
      Chipster was all flushed in the face and verging on tears at one point.
      
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      October 13, 2023 8:41pm
kglm

Once elected, one of the most important things the new Government should do is sell the state owned media, TVNZ and RNZ. Clearly these are politically activist organisations, and not impartial reporters of the news. The boards are responsible for the direction of the companies and have allowed then to become the activist entities that they are because of the attitudes of the staff that have been employed. The responsible Minister should invite the boards and CEOs of these entities to their office and demand their resignations, then appoint new boards tasked with preparing TVNZ and RNZ for sale. If the new Government does not sort out TVNZ and RNZ these organisations will still be undermining their shareholders (the Goovernment) when the next election occurs.
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October 13, 2023 11:25am
- marcw
  
  I’d start with TVNZ, and give RNZ the opportunity to see the writing on the wall and belatedly see some sense as to their fate if they refuse to change. Losing a “proper” RNZ would be a shame, but if they choose not to be impartial, so be it.
  
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  October 13, 2023 11:34am
  - JimBobJoe
    
    Make RNZ an NGo and cut its funding on a sinking lid over 3 years – and the new RNZ can editorialise all it likes with out the credibility of being the States broadcaster.
    
    The new RNZ can find its fund via sponsorships and subscriptions, with out non Leftie taxpayers having to see their taxes go to an organisation that hates anyone Right of Centre….
    
    Play “Time to say goodbye” here, with listening emphasis on Godbye
    
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    October 13, 2023 4:12pm
- Sacha
  
  I’d like the new government to have its own radio outlet – could be on the net – and use it to release any information.
  No outside interviews.
  Freeze out the Wokies and Hysterics.
  
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  October 13, 2023 12:06pm
  - krazykiwi
    
    I don’t support that.
    
    Consider a new power you would like your most trusted political leader to have.
    
    Then imagine it being wielded by the political leader you most despise.
    
    Because one day it will be.
    
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    October 13, 2023 1:07pm
    - Swifty
      
      That’s a good point but that’s not how the left think.
      
      They will implement something for political advantage but will scream blue murder when that very same thing is used by others against them.
      
      They have no shame and don’t for a minute play fair. We must never forget that.
      
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      October 13, 2023 1:23pm
  - Ehlana
    
    They don’t need a radio outlet, Sacha. They just release their own press releases onto the government website. And put anything too political for that onto their Party websites.
    
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    October 13, 2023 4:03pm
- Albie
  
  kglm- sale of state broadcasters- what about TV3 Newshub? Agenda Lynchmob and her crew are just as biased.
  Unfortunately I feel the problem is not just the institutions, but the sub 40 age group they employ, (Simon Wilson included). These “journalists” have been brainwashed with the liberal agenda and climate change nonsense since high school or earlier. Their tertiary studies are just the finishing school.
  
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  October 13, 2023 12:57pm
  - Ehlana
    
    Isn’t TV3 privately owned? That makes them a market problem.
    
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    October 13, 2023 4:04pm
    - Prince
      
      Yep. Absolutely no need to fund them in any way. Let the market decide.
      
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      October 13, 2023 4:37pm
    - Albie
      
      Correct, the problem is bigger than just going after the state owned media.
      
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      October 13, 2023 4:37pm
- NothingLeft
  
  Media funding must become long-term unbiased and outside of govt control, with a mechanism to stop a future left wing govt coopting them with govt money again as Labour have done.
  
  A large endowment for support of right wing media (similar to Guardians endowment) would be one way to do it, and perhaps should be done as a long term protection measure to try and maintain some media balance in NZ even through the next left wing govts likely inevitable attempts to undermine media (they’ve demonstrated endlessly unethical behavior of a might-make-right ilk in last 6 years)
  
  Or pass law to get each MP to decide annually where to put a 0.83% fraction of total govt media spend (and entrenching that rule if possible). Though that might stop hard questioning that irritates politicians. It’d be even better if it was decided by taxpayers (eg as part of tax return or an emailed response form each year).
  
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  October 13, 2023 3:54pm
Southern Raider

First New Zealander killed in Israel by Hamas

He was born in Wellington and loved rugby.
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October 13, 2023 11:42am
MCōs

A clip from 2014
https://x.com/cooperstreaming/status/1712245994606444847?s=61&t=yFkzCNMWRCaVt1p5eRxUog
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October 13, 2023 11:44am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Who believes this shit one day before the Election?
4% drop, oh wow. Then GST coming off.
Trickery!

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/rejoice-fruit-and-veg-prices-drop-considerably-as-supply-ramps-up/ar-AA1i7EVA?
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October 13, 2023 11:50am
- Ghost
  
  I’ve noticed the groceries have been dropping the past few weeks.
  
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  October 13, 2023 11:56am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    We haven’t yet, and it is hard on a fixed income.
    Dip into the nest egg and it never goes back.
    
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    October 13, 2023 12:40pm
    - 70andstilllearning
      
      “We haven’t yet ….”
      Not surprising Steve – just more selective reporting by newshub trying to help Labour.
      
      “Monthly change
      Food prices fell 0.4 percent in September 2023. After seasonal adjustment, they rose 0.1 percent.”
      
      It just depends on which Stats release you use – the “news” release or the index release with the not so flash detail.
      https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/food-price-index-september-2023/
      
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      October 13, 2023 1:40pm
Ghost

Another lie from Mr Hipkins

Did 11,000 people really get a vaccine exemption?

In March, Covid-19 Minister Chris Hipkins answered National MP Chris Bishop’s questions, stating up to 2600 people had received a service disruption exemption and up to 304 a medical exemption between November 2021 and February 2022. (The data provided monthly figures, so a person with an exemption granted in both November and February could have been counted multiple times.)
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October 13, 2023 12:05pm
- 2ic
  
  I see in the article that Stuff, to their credit, have followed up on on this Winston Peters truth-bomb dropped in The Press Leaders Debate. This is a national scandal that should have been headline news over the last week or more, so not surprisingly the MoH, rather than defend the indefensible, have just gone to ground:
  
  “Stuff asked the Ministry of Health to confirm and explain the 11,005 figure. However, the media team stopped returning our calls.”
  
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  October 13, 2023 1:55pm
  - Blog-aholic
    
    Open AND Tranparent?
    
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    October 13, 2023 2:01pm
- kevn
  
  Ghost… Plus of course, the cluster of docs in Northland and Dunedin. Plus other areas no doubt.
  
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  October 13, 2023 4:10pm
MCōs

Talk about locking someone up and throwing away the key
https://aseannow.com/topic/1309101-official-gets-50-years-in-jail-for-wrongful-use-of-official-sedan/
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October 13, 2023 1:20pm
- Lance
  
  Not quite the same thing.
  But in our overland trip through Africa (1988) two numb-skulls from our group were caught buying Hash in an obvious setup.
  The choice from the police was a US$20 bribe (each) or 20 years in a shit hole prison.
  Hmmm, tough choice.
  
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  October 13, 2023 2:53pm
miltonF

It’s interesting how the govt is highly selective on its “misinformation” purges. A nurse was suspended for spreading misinformation about Covid 19 vaccines. Claiming that they alter your DNA (possibly true) and other loopy claims.

What about the medical practitioners that claimed you wouldn’t catch Covid if you were vaccinated, and that there is zero risk of taking the vaccine? Doctors who claimed healthy people and children were at risk from Covid? What about the “professionals” who claimed we could eliminate Covid? Why are these misinformation spreaders not purged also?
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October 13, 2023 1:50pm
- krazykiwi
  
  We’ve witnessed what the authorities have long and secretly yearned for: A pogrom against any person or any group that questions their authority. In the process the protections offered to ordinary citizens by our civil liberties statutes have been exposed as unfit for purpose. In my view fixing this is the most urgent task to be addressed by an incoming government. Sadly I expect this will be ignored.
  
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  October 13, 2023 3:41pm
- kevn
  
  milton… Doing what they were told to do by the Medical Council. Most of them toed the line, almost all of them.
  
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  October 13, 2023 4:07pm
Maggie Pie

Anyone know anything about this NZ-Loyal-Party?

The trolley-guy at NW gave me a brochure when I was there earlier. He was saying they’re going to introduce a 1% Tax Rate for everyone!
Don’t know why I hadn’t heard of them sooner…website looks interesting. You can link here:

https://nzloyal.org.nz/pages/monetary-system-taxation-part-two
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October 13, 2023 1:55pm
- greybeard
  
  1% transaction tax ?
  
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  October 13, 2023 1:56pm
- Inthe09
  
  In the far North their signs with Liz Gunn on them outnumber Labour and Nationals combined.
  
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  October 13, 2023 4:39pm
Jimbo666

Wasn’t that the policy of the discredited “Social Credit party”?
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October 13, 2023 2:10pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Newshub helping Hipkins with his lies:
“We’ve got a proven track record of delivering stable Government.”
Seriously?

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/would-the-left-or-right-be-a-more-stable-government-poll-results-reveal-what-kiwis-think/ar-AA1i4U0E?
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October 13, 2023 2:46pm
- krazykiwi
  
  But he’s right.
  
  It is a stable government.
  
  It’s just the remaining 99.97% of New Zealand that’s turning to shit.
  
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  October 13, 2023 3:33pm
- Ehlana
  
  Maybe he means he thinks his remaining Ministers are stable?
  
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  October 13, 2023 4:06pm
Vinicius

Our good host DPF talking to Michael Laws on The Platform. Recorded today.

https://youtu.be/oXEQ7fS0zsg
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October 13, 2023 2:58pm
emmess

Still no Roy Morgan poll?
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October 13, 2023 3:13pm
- emmess
  
  Finally
  https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/9362-nz-national-voting-intention-september-october-2023
  
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  October 13, 2023 7:23pm
  - Don Beckett
    
    I think the National support will be more than 30.5 %. My take, 37%
    
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    October 13, 2023 7:46pm
bjools

One of my clients, a govt. agency.
Has just sent me an application to a procurement agency. That seems to be a data base of suppliers.
If you register, although free, they reserve the right to charge fees in the future.
Where my concern is peaked.
Under the terms and conditions
I must comply with Australian consumer law (they are based in Melbourne).
They are a private company.
Seems contra to this govt.s ethos.
And
Subjugates control in this area to a PRIVATE…FOREIGN company.
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October 13, 2023 3:18pm
Maggie Pie

$TUFFED

Go Woke – Go Broke. I’ll give ’em till Xmas 😀

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300988705/stuff-group-withdraws-from-x-formerly-twitter
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October 13, 2023 3:38pm
- emmess
  
  Here is Clarkson’s response.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi7V_RoUW3k
  
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  October 13, 2023 3:40pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  Hmm….and wonder if this might have something to do with it?
  
  https://twitter.com/CranmerWrites/status/1712240660009615609
  
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  October 13, 2023 4:02pm
  - fightingtemeraire
    
    They are broke and after the election they will be gone.
    
    Remember they and the Herald wanted to merge but tye Commerce Commission said no.
    
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    October 13, 2023 4:19pm
- sirknz
  
  This move alone will have removed about 30% of the mis/disinformation from the NZ Twitter-sphere…
  
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  October 13, 2023 4:05pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  May they go down in a screaming ball of fire!
  
  …figuratively speaking of course (for any woketards about to hit the panic button).
  
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  October 13, 2023 7:21pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  ‘ We are increasingly concerned about the volume of mis- and dis-information being shared on the platform’
  
  Pot, kettle, black?
  
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  October 13, 2023 7:32pm
- Ghost
  
  I think there main problem was they couldn’t push their propaganda on twitter, people were calling them out and they couldn’t control the narrative
  
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  October 13, 2023 7:36pm
BananaLlama

Cast my vote for ACT today, hall looked pretty empty but people must be coming through in drips and drabs judging by the big stack of easy vote cards they had off to the side.
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October 13, 2023 4:17pm
Suze Wainwright

Gosh, look!

Talbot Mills has come back to the party!

(Even though it still acknowledges National/ACT/NZ First)
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October 13, 2023 4:21pm
- Vinicius
  
  Yup still favours the right. Winston told the media today he’s not going with Labour. Not sure if I can believe him or not.
  
  The extra seat for National from Port Waikato may come in handy.
  
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  October 13, 2023 4:44pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    Winston (as always) trying to pump up his votes by pretending he’s ‘safe’ and that he will do something about issue ‘xx’. But as we all learned to our detriment in 2017-2020 he’s a deceitful untrustworthy bastard once the results are in. He only cares about being the limelight, and he’ll always chose personal aggrandizement ahead of issues.
    
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    October 13, 2023 5:03pm
Prince

Media beat-up of the day today is Luxon spending $60 a week on breakfasts and lunches.
Seems reasonable to me. Packet of weetbix, 2 loaves of bread, marg and spread, coffee, sandwiches.
On the other hand Hipkins pretends he spends $600. But he is separated from wife and kids.
So who sounds the most truthful ?
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October 13, 2023 4:30pm
- graham
  
  Labour leader Chris Hipkins said he would spend between $300-$400 for a weekly family shop, and said Luxon’s $60 spend left him “very concerned about [Luxon’s] diet”.
  
  … says the man who keeps getting pictured eating donuts, sausage rolls, soft-serve ice-creams …
  
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  October 13, 2023 4:44pm
  - Suze Wainwright
    
    Yes, but Chris Luxon eats KFC and that got the attention of some Aussie nutritionist
    
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    October 13, 2023 5:02pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Particularly when the sausage rolls are free
    
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    October 13, 2023 7:33pm
Inthe09

In the supermarket this afternoon and started talking to a women, early -80s at a guess – she mentioned she hadn’t voted ‘yet’ but wasn’t sure she would this time.

I asked if she was happy with how things were going (we’d been commenting on the cost of everything prior) – she said no – so I replied ‘It’s a chance to change things if you want to’. Her reply – ‘Oh I only ever vote Labour, but I might give this one a miss’.

Let’s hope there are a lot more like her tomorrow.
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October 13, 2023 4:36pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Woo hoo!!
  
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  October 13, 2023 5:50pm
Swifty

A likely final post in advance of tomorrow’s election.

In the event that Labour loses power, what an inditement on that new generation of Labour leadership, Ardern, Robertson and Hipkins, who were to carry on the torch from Clark and Cullen et al and lead the Labour movement into broad sunlit uplands.

Look at their backgrounds – all political operatives since University, all intelligent and educated, all meticulously groomed for leadership (and I might say all protected from having jobs or careers in the private sector), all ‘public service’ their entire careers – and for what?

Their political careers will be in ruins, Labour’s reputation wrecked for a decade or more and millions of New Zealanders left with ashes in their mouths.

Ardern, Robertson and Hipkins have absolutely squandered the opportunity they were given. New Zealand is demonstrably worse off in nearly every area that matters and we are a more divided and dangerous society than we’ve ever been.

It has been Labour’s arrogance and ‘we know best’ attitude that has led us to this point. They have chipped away at our fundamental freedoms and rights, greatly expanded racially discriminatory policies and laws, squandered our wealth, corrupted our civil service and news media and openly played favourites – all they tell us while either condescendingly patting us on the head, telling us it’s all for our own good, or worse calling us filthy names for opposing them or merely asking questions.

They have launched change after change that not only did the great majority of us not even remotely ask for, but worse have led to outcomes opposite to those intended.

The last three years especially have just been an absolute disaster for the nation – with great lists of Labour promises lying on the floor discarded, abandoned and trampled on by them in their new found and very last minute rush to convince us all that they have reformed, they’ve learned their lesson and that all will be well from now on – oh and here look here’s a couple of bucks off your bananas and potatoes this week.

Again, should Labour lose tomorrow I hope my countryfolk will pat themselves on the back briefly before we set to work righting all the wrongs of the last few years and rebuilding our nation into what it is capable of being – ambitious, adventurous, independent, prosperous, extremely well educated and full of resourceful men and women who can hold their own anywhere internationally – and free from and actively recoil from dependence on the evil clutches of nanny state.

Never will I be more relieved at the throwing out of this ruinous Sixth Labour Government, the members of which should abandon and flee their political careers never to return.

I hope New Zealanders have learned a lesson from all of this. Run away, as fast as you can, from political careerists who promise everything while asking for your vote.
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October 13, 2023 6:20pm
Ghost

Strangely stuff have started to do something so unexpected, investigate stories and not push labour propaganda

A hundred Covid vaccine exemptions covered thousands of health care staff in “critical” health services during the pandemic – the largest covering 971 workers.

Te Whatu Ora says the Significant Service Disruption Exemptions were temporary, the longest of them lasting eight weeks. They were granted because “a critical health service would not be able to be provided if the workers were unavailable”, a statement said.

Stuff can confirm the number of health care staff exempted – 11,005 workers – after New Zealand First leader Winston Peters was quizzed on the numbers at The Press Leaders debate.

Article
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October 13, 2023 6:26pm
greybeard

I have just watched a TV3 news item about the woman killed by a dog, in Moerewa. Other family members were also injured in this attack.
The dog was killed by a neighbour, who shot it ( lucky the neighbour had a gun ! ).

I know this part of NZ and it is feral, even without a dog problem.

According to the TV report, there are huge numbers of unregistered dogs in the area, over 1000 more than a year ago .

You can guarantee that most are not de-sexed.

I cannot imagine why people would want so many dogs, and I cannot imagine how these people can afford to actually feed them.

Such organisations as SPCA and particularly the local Council are having no impact on this problem, assuming they are trying to solve it, or are being allowed to solve it.

I am a dog lover, and look after a family dog for a great part of the year, but I think the first thing to do is to round up these animals and either euthanase them or have them adopted , quickly.
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October 13, 2023 6:31pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/cricket-world-cup/133057604/cricket-world-cup-all-you-need-to-know-as-the-black-caps-face-bangladesh
Kane Williamson out within 4 balls.
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October 13, 2023 6:41pm
Maggie Pie

One of the girls from tennis was telling us earlier that Labors ‘Talbot Mills’ internal poll had them 10% ahead of National.

Just tried the link she gave me but keep getting a ‘404 Error’ message.

Anyone have access to it?
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October 13, 2023 6:58pm
- Ghost
  
  This link?
  
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  October 13, 2023 7:02pm
  - Don Beckett
    
    Good one, Ghost. 😆
    
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    October 13, 2023 7:38pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  Hitler imagined he could still win when all of Berlin was smashed to pieces and he was hiding in his bunker from the Soviets who had surrounded him.
  
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  October 13, 2023 7:04pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Should be room for a good Downfall parody tomorrow night, with Chippy in the starring role.
    
    ‘But we still have Wellington Central’
    
    Cue nervous glances from the top brass
    
    ‘Mein Fueher, the National candidate slipped through our man and our Green ally …’
    
    With trembling hand, Chippy slowly removes his glasses …
    
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    October 13, 2023 7:40pm
- oldpark
  
  Maggie “Talbot Mills Poll ”
  
  Labour 30
  National 35 .
  According to Heather Newstalk ZB earlier this evening .
  Regards..
  
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  October 13, 2023 7:48pm
  - TeresaAnn
    
    Labour probably leaking false numbers. If it was accurate I am sure they would publish it. Two ticks National for me tomorrow. Have heard in various parts of the country there have been queues to vote this week.
    
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    October 13, 2023 9:09pm
Ghost

New Zealand set for a new Prime Minister and a three-party governing coalition: National, ACT & NZ First

Support for a potential National/ACT right-leaning coalition is now at 42%, down 7% points from August 2023, as support for the libertarian-leaning ACT fell swiftly in September-October.

Support for National was virtually unchanged at 30.5%, down 0.5% points from August (but up 4.9% points since the 2020 NZ Election), while support for ACT dropped significantly, down 6.5% points to 11.5% (but an increase of 3.9% points since the last election). ACT lost a slew of candidates (six) in the lead-up to the election and this has clearly had a negative impact on their support.

The combined support for a potential National/ACT coalition is now at its lowest for exactly two years since October 2021 and the two parties will not be able to form government without the help of New Zealand First and long-time leader, Winston Peters.

Support for New Zealand First continued to surge in September-October and was up 2% points to 7.5% – the highest level of support for the ‘populist’ party for nearly six years since December 2017.

Article
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October 13, 2023 7:26pm
NZer In Exile

Feels like Christmas Eve when I was 5 years old.

Tomorrow Santa is (hopefully) going to put this toxic clown show out of NZ’s misery! 🌞
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October 13, 2023 7:43pm
ecco

Went down to Sylvia Park shopping mall at 7pm this evening for dinner. Saw a very long queue at the voting booth in that mall. Could deduce that all these people are left wing voters. A large cohort of the island community were there as this is basically the mall that South Auckland shops at. Just hope people on the right have turned out in force too in their electorates.
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October 13, 2023 8:54pm
- Ghost
  
  That’s a pretty good talent you have there, looking at someone and deciding you know who they are voting for. I’d expect Pacific Islander to be out in force as they have a few pacific island candidates to vote for, one of them is standing for national
  
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  October 13, 2023 9:21pm
  - Swifty
    
    Naida Glavish can tell if someone is a racist just by looking at the shape of their mouths!
    
    She is clearly an advanced version of us mere mortals.
    
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    October 13, 2023 10:21pm
Swifty

Capitalist scum!

https://fb.watch/nEJCKYXiCy/?mibextid=v7YzmG

//
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October 13, 2023 9:18pm
Truman lodge

Election is a fix

Labour/Green/TPM to win by one seat

Amazing what is happening in NZ
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October 13, 2023 9:35pm
- Ghost
  
  You’ve been saying for a few days now, hopefully you’ll come back tomorrow and admit you were wrong and not just disappear
  
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  October 13, 2023 10:01pm

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