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November 16, 2021 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 16 November 2021

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General Debate

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CJames

To see what the other side think, I ventured over to the dark world of the Stranded. I took one for the team. People concerned about the abuse that gets through the moderators here should compare it to there. Kiwiblog stands out as mild-mannered discussion.
The article that took my interest was the claim of how good the modelling, particularly the latest by Gary Jackson reported on RNZ website, was to what has eventuated. The only model they discuss is one from the end of October so it has been running for just two weeks. I kid you not. Already, the actual ICU is only half what was predicted, but that is just a mere bagatelle. No mention of previous modelling efforts of Mr Hendy, the 80k deaths and the like. So he is now a non-person. But science is still supreme.
And there is the claim strict lockdowns worked – the only reason for the spread was people weren’t obeying them. No sense of disconnect or a look at the consequences. No doubt written by someone on full pay in their lounge with all their deliveries and services by plebs, sorry essential workers. Of course if those essential workers aren’t vaccinated, then they are the unclean and deserve to be cast out of society.
Is there a parallel universe out there we don’t know about?
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November 16, 2021 8:00am
- CJames
  
  Here is the RNZ article.
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/454804/modelling-shows-covid-19-hospitalisations-may-double-in-auckland
  Note it is only for Auckland
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:01am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Isn’t that a bit understated? I’m sure it could be trebled if we just used fortran for the coding.
    
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    November 16, 2021 8:09am
    - bennerg
      
      With COBOL we can give you anything you want!
      
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      November 16, 2021 10:59am
      - KevO'Brien
        
        Real fun with APL where there were competitions for single line programs that could do the most.
        
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        November 16, 2021 4:05pm
  - Tony Stuart
    
    There are already more people in hospital with Delta (90) than the highest daily number of Covid infections during to 2020 outbreak (88). It won’t be long until the number of people in hospital as a result of Covid will hit three figures.
    
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    November 16, 2021 8:11am
    - rouppe
      
      Meanwhile seventy THOUSAND elective surgeries have been cancelled, negatively impacting the quality of life for those people
      
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      November 16, 2021 8:36am
      - doggone7
        
        You reckon people being aware of that might make them think the implications of Covid are serious and wide reaching?
        You know those who didn’t mind life carrying on as normal from the time it first arrived and down played the seriousness of it.
        And those out there just about every day chanting about ‘choices,’ I wonder how they view the choices of those whose surgeries have been cancelled?
        
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        November 16, 2021 9:40am
      - UrbanNeocolonialist
        
        And those cancelled surgeries will lead to a substantial number of deaths.
        
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        November 16, 2021 9:46am
      - kevn
        
        @rouppe… That is conservative, more like 150,000 over NZ. Collins indicated that number as well, a few weeks ago.
        
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        November 16, 2021 9:49am
      - alan
        
        I am supposed to see a eye specialist every 4 months at Wellington Hospital because I have glaucoma to serious eye issues. I was supposed to go in September but it was cancelled with a new date of 4 December. God knows what my eyes will be like then.
        
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        November 16, 2021 11:07am
      - Suze Wainwright
        
        Yep, my local DHB has sent me a letter telling me to fark off for at least 6 months before I could possibly get a basic scan done
        
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        November 16, 2021 12:10pm
    - Albert_Ross
      
      True no doubt, but what point is made by comparing a cumulative total (hospitalisations) with a daily total (new cases)? It’s like saying this car has done 250,000k while that one has a top speed of 150kph.
      
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      November 16, 2021 8:41am
    - Sacha
      
      It would be really interesting to see what sort of treatment they had received for symptoms before they became sick enough to be admitted with complications.
      Were they given advice about taking zinc/vit D3/aspirin or warned of the significance of shortness of breath?
      It would help if they were given an antiviral IMMEDIATELY they became symptomatic – but no, the government/MoH in their wisdom are withholding effective treatment in order to pursue their own agenda.
      It’s not about the people.
      
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      November 16, 2021 9:04am
    - kowtow
      
      I have no doubts that as restrictions are lifted/ eased this kungflu will hit the hospitals very hard .
      
      Hospitals will be over run and there’ll be many cases of “displaced mortality” among the very old and very sick.
      
      So given that ,what was the “go early , go hard” all about , the cost to the economy , and all the other loses of freedom and coniptions.
      
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      November 16, 2021 9:06am
      - ClanMcleod
        
        This was always going to be the outcome. It was warned about from the beginning, but Ardern decided she knew better than everyone else and she would eliminate it.
        In the meanwhile, no general health advice to the population and zero improvement in the health services and their ability to respond. Nothing. Instead Ardern bans antibody testing, bans HCQ and basically bans Ivermectin. Why?
        That is malfeasance.
        
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        November 16, 2021 10:31am
    - Ed Snack
      
      And yet they absolutely will not consider ANY treatment for cases to try to prevent them becoming more serious. Just how can that be justified ?
      
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      November 16, 2021 9:18am
    - Man Among the Ruins
      
      You are being misled. Like the Covid death figures, the Covid hospitalisation figures are designed to misled: just as any deceased who happens to also have Covid is classed as a “Covid death,” anyone who is in hospital for any reason and also happens to have Covid is classed as a “Covid hospitalisation.” There may not have been any purely Covid hospitalisations in NZ, just as there have been no purely Covid deaths.
      
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      November 16, 2021 11:23am
  - pdm
    
    Hawkes Bay Nurses protesting outside the Hospital – obviously they have been put off due to the vaccine mandate.
    
    A better idea would be to get rid of the plethora of middle managers that have accumulated at Hawkes Bay hospital in the last few years. Most of them only interested in their own job security and offering nothing to the efficient running of the hospial – which is a shambles at best and chaotic at worst.
    
    The number of horror stories about patients not being properly cared for grows by the day – yours truly being one of them a couple of months ago.
    
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    November 16, 2021 10:01am
- Mr_Blobby
  
  Welcome to another day of lockdown tyranny.
  
  “Parallel universe out there we don’t know about”.
  
  Welcome from the Independent Republic of Blobby.
  
  The minister of finance has just advised that the non performance bonus from New Zimbabwe has just turned up.
  
  Now I’m not the economic and financial genius that my mate Robbo is.
  
  I always believed, in fairness only economics 101, that you made stuff, sold it for money, and used that money to buy stuff that other people made.
  
  This new theory of paying people money, you don’t have, not to make stuff and to use that money to buy stuff other people have made, effectively more money chasing less stuff.
  
  Is revolutionary. Brilliant, why did nobody think of this before.
  
  Todays agenda, it is shaping up to be a nice day.
  
  I might declare a National Picnic Holiday, all the citizens of Independant Republic of Bobby and friends can attend.
  
  We will select a location where we can observe the oppressed scared sheeple of New Zimbabwe scuttling around with their face nappies on.
  
  Maybe giving some helpful advice, like if you double mask you will be twice as safe, only to watch them take fright that someone spoke to them and quickly run away. I believe many are to scared to even leave their houses.
  
  I have wondered about people driving around alone in motor vehicles with a face nappy on depriving themselves of oxygen, is it some sort of asphyxiation fetish, I did try to find out, I ask one nice man if he wore a condom when he is at home alone and playing with himself, he looked at me as if he was from Mars.
  
  You are right must be some “parallel universe”.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:43am
- bronny1
  
  What is the Stranded?
  
  [A nickname for the left wing blog, The Standard – Mod]
  
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  November 16, 2021 1:10pm
- Alan1930
  
  1. Unless you have formal qualifications in the fields of statistical analysis or vaccinology (which clearly you don’t) then any research that you try to do yourself is going to be deeply flawed and completely unreliable – thus it’s completely nonsensical to rely on it to make important medical decision when qualified professionals in both of those fields have already conducted extensive peer reviewed research. There’s a reason X-Rays aren’t interpreted by florists – and neurosurgery isn’t done by real estate agents. At some point you have to trust highly qualified professionals because you don’t have the skill set to evaluate their work.
  
  Here’s a link that touches on that: https://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/126726310/a-few-social-media-reckons-or-likes-arent-research
  
  2. There’s nothing in the mRNA vaccine that hasn’t been in mRNA vaccines for decades (fat to carry the message, salt to adjust the PH, sugar to protect it against the low temps); only the 4000 letter message is different. Refusing vaccination on the basis of insufficient long term safety data is as ridiculous as avoiding a new brand of food for 40 years that has the same fat, salt, and sugar as other products that have been on sale for decades.
  
  Here’s a link that touches on that: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-rod-jackson-soon-everyone-in-nz-will-be-immunised-against-covid-19/O2DWYJUZ5RHQA7KXB4YSF2MYFU/
  
  3. As of today 6781 kiwi doctors have said “get the jab”. If they had an average of 20 years training and experience then, in not getting the jab (and with no medical training what-so-ever), your trying to assert that you can make a better medical decision than a group of doctors with over 135,000 years of collective training and experience – and that’s in addition to many other checks and balances that have gone into ensuring it’s safe.
  
  Here’s a link to back that up: https://www.doctors-stand-up-for-vaccination.com/
  
  My sincere advice is to stop believing nonsensical information that’s present in the majority of posts in sites like this one – stop being an arse – and go get jabbed.
  
  Seriously, the decision is a no-brainer. Will you die if you don’t? … you’ll die either way; research clearly shows that 100% of kiwis die within 120 years of being born. Will you die due to the vaccine? No. Will you die from COVID-19? … nobody knows – but “not dying” is a stupid benchmark – it’s not exactly a “validation of an anti-vax position” if you “only” end up with a catheter up your urethra – tracheostomy in your throat – several IV lines in your veins – in an induced coma for many weeks – on powerful antivirals to try to kill the infection (which have had even less time for testing) – powerful antibiotics to counter the ventiallator attributed pneumonea – steroids to try to get your lungs functioning (that leave life-long scarring) – whilst having lost 20kg due to muscle atophy — followed by years of PTSD. Just think, potentailly all of that just to avoid a harmless 3 second jab. Seriously?
  
  In my opinion, sites like this are dangerous. They’re echo chambers where people with nonsensical thinking get validation from other people with equally nonsensical ideas; it’s not reality – it offers only a VERY distorted view of reality, but it seems real when you don’t have reliable sources of information to counter at.
  
  The bottom line is that people’s response to covid is natural selection at work. The benefits of the vaccine have been staggeringly proven. At this point your choice is clear; you can choose to be one of the smart ones who maximises their chances of survival be being vaccinated or you can become a walking petrie dish that makes the problem worse for yourself everyone else. Please, don’t be that idiot.
  
  Here’s a link that reinforces that: https://www.miamitimesonline.com/opinion/coronavirus-is-a-sad-study-of-natural-selection/article_2cde76de-efa9-11eb-9b84-4b2c08b3511c.html
  
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  November 16, 2021 3:13pm
  - Alan Wilkinson
    
    Except that risk varies enormously depending on age and health. So much so that children aren’t offered the jab.
    
    Your one size fits all assumptions are statistical nonsense.
    
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    November 16, 2021 5:14pm
    - Alan1930
      
      “Except that risk varies enormously depending on age and health.”
      
      Indeed it does – in addition to many other variables, including the covid variant; a lot of what applied to initial strains doesn’t apply to Delta.
      
      Currently 219 of the 345 who are hopitalised are under 50 years of age; that’s 63%
      
      I’m really at a loss to understand why non-vaxxed members here all seem to think that they’re at the peak of physical condition and unlikely to be affected by covid to any significant degree; I’m sure that every single one of them works out regularly – is at the idea body fat percentage – eats only healthy foods – doesn’t drink alcohol or smoke and is at a favourable age … as are all those they care about.
      
      “So much so that children aren’t offered the jab.”
      
      The reason children are CURRENTLY not offered the jab here in NZ is because the safety data hasn’t been reviewed by our authorities yet. Approval is expected in the next couple of months. Children may – on average – suffer less symptoms than adults, but they’re just as effective petrie dishes for incubating mutations – and just as effective at passing it on.
      
      “Your one size fits all assumptions are statistical nonsense.”
      
      Sounds like you’re feeling threatened by a dose of realism. If others want to be influenced by your stupidity then that’s up to them; Natural selection couldn’t care less about the intellectual masturbation that many here like to engage in (validated by those who like to watch). Will be interesting to see how many here change their tune once they’ve been infected.
      
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      November 16, 2021 6:10pm
  - Alan1930
    
    @Mods: Apologies – this was intended as a reply for the long @2ic post further down. If you’re able to move it then that would be appreciated. If not then never mind. Many thanks.
    
    [Sorry can’t move posts – make a copy and paste a new post at the correct location, and I will delete the original when I see your response. mod.]
    
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    November 16, 2021 6:17pm
  - Spoff
    
    “At some point you have to trust highly qualified professionals”
    Yep.
    Robert Malone is credited with inventing a key component of the mRNA process.
    https://thenewamerican.com/dr-robert-malone-this-is-the-largest-experiment-performed-on-human-beings-in-the-history-of-the-world/
    Dr. Byram Bridle – PhD, Viral Immunologist & Associate Professor at the University of Guelph.
    https://drbyrambridle.com/
    Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi, post-doctoral researcher at the Max Planck Institute of Immunobiology and Epigenetics in Freiburg and at The Protein Laboratory in Copenhagen.
    https://evidencenotfear.com/tag/dr-sucharit-bhakdi/
    Geert Vanden Bossche received his DVM from the University of Ghent, Belgium, and his PhD degree in Virology from the University of Hohenheim, Germany. He held adjunct faculty appointments at universities in Belgium and Germany. After his career in Academia, Geert joined several vaccine companies (GSK Biologicals, Novartis Vaccines, Solvay Biologicals) to serve various roles in vaccine R&D as well as in late vaccine development. Geert then moved on to join the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation’s Global Health Discovery team in Seattle (USA) as Senior Program Officer; he then worked with the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization (GAVI) in Geneva
    https://www.geertvandenbossche.org/
    
    …..to mention just a few.
    
    “There’s nothing in the mRNA vaccine that hasn’t been in mRNA vaccines for decades”
    The first in-human trials of the mRNA procedure took place in March 2020. They are on-going.
    
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    November 16, 2021 7:56pm
mikenmildagain

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Happy International Day for Tolerance!
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November 16, 2021 8:00am
- RalphT
  
  If there’s one thing I won’t tolerate it’s tolerance.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:16am
  - Mike
    
    That’s odd. I am very intolerant of intolerance.
    
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    November 16, 2021 8:30am
    - RalphT
      
      Now comments like that I really, really can’t tolerate. Personal insults like that are bordering on falling into the reporting category ?
      
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      November 16, 2021 9:31am
      - RalphT
        
        Sorry, wrong place – my comment was meant to be in response to pdm’s oh so hurtful remark suggesting that I might be Jacinda.
        
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        November 16, 2021 10:26am
  - pdm
    
    Ralph are you Jacinda in drag?
    
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    November 16, 2021 8:32am
  - Mr_Blobby
    
    Im offended.
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:48am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  Honoured in the breach these days, methinks MnM
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:22am
  - Mike
    
    Yes. Lots of angry people around, especially in blog comments threads,
    
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    November 16, 2021 8:32am
    - Ed Snack
      
      Lots of angry people around because of lockdowns, mask mandates, mandatory vaccinations, and other stupid policies that have little or no real world impact on the disease.
      
      All very well for the average Wellington bureaucrat, at home on full pay doing 9/10ths of FA as per usual, getting richer by the week. But your small business owner/worker in many industries in, say, Auckland, and it is a rather different story.
      
      But as usual Labour is pondering to its base, the wealthy and “woke” urbanites.
      
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      November 16, 2021 9:21am
    - Alan Wilkinson
      
      Not much tolerance of unvaccinated in be kind socialists or in our supine constitution/courts.
      
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      November 16, 2021 9:31am
- mandk
  
  You know what?
  
  I can’t abide people who put stuff like that on KB.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:27am
- rouppe
  
  What response do you get when you post that at The Standard?
  
  I care to much for my health to look
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:37am
- Aunty
  
  [Not even when it’s in context sorry. mod.]
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:12am
- Don Beckett
  
  Tell that to our “caring” Prime Minister.
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:41am
- BassilFawlty
  
  I strenuously refute that.
  
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  November 16, 2021 11:28am
Warren

9COVID-19 Delta Outbreak: 36 Million of MIQ Bill’s not issued due to incomplete or inaccurate data.
What business in todays world could afford to lose 36 Million dollars because ther billing system is old and error prone and really would the person in charge still have a job of there boss found out it had been like that for near on two years like this has since Covid -19 hit our shores.
Newstalk ZB can reveal invoices for close to 14,400 people weren’t issued due to incomplete or inaccurate (MIQ) data- this dispite these people having left managed isolation months ago.
There is also roughly 7,800 returnees who officials have not been able to figure out whether, or how much, they should be charged.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-36-million-of-miq-bills-not-issued-due-to-incomplete-or-inaccurate-data/RBH7RHYDKZXMISZJBCRI37XUKI/
No it was only yesterday we heard that their are several people living in Kainga Ora state homes that don’t pay rent and threaten there Neighbors with violence but don’t get evicted because of Labours and Jacinda Ardern our Prime Ministers be kind policy, well enough is enough and it’s time for the Taxpayer to fight back because we seem to be paying for those that contribute nothing to have abetter lifestyle that the one the Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern allows us.
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November 16, 2021 8:00am
- kiwikidsnz
  
  How hard would it have been to get these people to be required to provide a credit card on booking as the MIQ hotel did for any normal accommodation reservation.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:19am
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Let alone the airline tickets that got them back into the country.
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:08am
  - Mr_Blobby
    
    What about the homeless person sneaked in at the very beginning, it was how long before they found out,
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:54am
  - KKKKatee
    
    Not hard at all. If you book any accommodation anywhere in the world, credit card details are a prerequisite of the booking process.
    
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    November 16, 2021 12:37pm
- Ra Henare
  
  Having been thru MIQ twice. Oct 2020, July 2021.
  Their systems are CRAP.
  Wrote to head of MIQ with review and recommendations.
  Yep, zero response.
  They know best dontcha know.
  
  But what do I know, only in the systems business for 35 years.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:22am
- cmm
  
  The Che beret wearers have never run a business. Getting things like people’s names and addresses seems like pretty hard work.
  
  But this screw up sets a benchmark. If they can’t even capture someone’s name and address right, then getting harder things right is surely beyond them.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:53am
  - oc35
    
    One would think they at least obtained an NHI number from which an address would be available – eventually if arrivals returning from living overseas.
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:04am
  - Miritu
    
    I’d rather authoritarian governments were like this
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:46am
  - Suze Wainwright
    
    Che was only good at running revolutions; but even there he failed. In his last one (Bolivia), he had a colleague who apparently knew how to implement communism better than he did (leaving him somewhat high & dry)…
    
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    November 16, 2021 12:21pm
- Jim
  
  This is the best (of many) examples of Labour Party Public Sector financial accountability since the unfathomable $2.75 MILLION gifted to the Mogrel Mob Rehab Services Inc.
  In order to pay for this ineptitude I do hope the PMs fading majority are all loyally paying the new 39% tax rate.
  
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  November 16, 2021 1:41pm
2ic

Apologies for the long post, but I’m just after some feedback on a risk/benefit analysis of getting vaccinated I’ve done for myself – and some comments from readers on how they came to their decision.

I’m under a lot of pressure to get vaccinated but am concerned about the alarming level of adverse events being reported and lack of any long term safety data. I’m trying to do the best risk/benefit analysis I can based on real data, as I have no trust in Government and MSM spin.

There is some good data being collected in the UK which breaks down outcomes into age brackets and vaccination status to get an idea of the effectiveness of the vaccine. I’m having a look at the latest COVID-19 vaccine surveillance report (11 November 2021 – week 45) from:

COVID-19 vaccine weekly surveillance reports (weeks 39 to 45)
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-surveillance-reports

I’m particularly interested in the raw data in Table 4 (page 19) and Table 5 (page 20) for hospitalisations and deaths. Of course, this needs to be balanced against the Vaccine Uptake chart on page 14.

In my age bracket of 50-59, there are actually more hospitalisations and deaths in the fully vaccinated (‘second dose > 14 days’ column), but from the Vaccine Uptake chart I see the 50-55 and 55-60 age ranges are around 87% and 89% vaccinated, so I’ve taken an 88% figure for the 50-59 age range.

From this I’ve worked out that for my 50-59 age group, I’ve got around 5x greater risk of hospitalisation and 6x greater risk of death than being unvaccinated.

This is large as a Relative Risk Reduction, but it is off a pretty low risk baseline of around 0.27% mortality for someone in my age bracket according to this study:

Infection fatality rate of COVID-19 in community-dwelling populations with emphasis on the elderly
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.08.21260210v1

So the Absolute Risk Reduction is very small – my unvaccinated 99.73% survival rate becomes 99.96% if I’m vaccinated. I don’t have any comorbidities and am taking Vitamin C, D, Zinc and Quercetin to help protect myself, so I think my risk is very low even unvaccinated.

I have to weigh this up against the risk of a serious adverse event caused by the vaccines. Everyone is familiar with the high levels of adverse events and deaths reported to VAERS in the USA, but there are some alarming figures from the UK also. This is from an article by The Expose (https://theexpose.uk/2021/11/08/covid-vaccine-deaths-330-percent-higher-than-deaths-due-to-all-vaccines/), but I link the source documents below:

https://theexpose.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/FOI-21-907-Response-1.pdf
“The MHRA has received a total of 404 UK spontaneous suspected ADR reports for any vaccine between 01/01/2001 – 25/08/2021 associated with a fatal outcome.” (excludes Covid vaccines)

So 404 deaths reported over 20 years for all vaccines other than the Covid vaccines – that’s around 20 per year. How does this compare with the Covid vaccines? Have a look at the ‘Annex 1: Vaccine Analysis Print’ documents on the UK ‘Coronavirus vaccine – Weekly Summary of Yellow Card Reporting’ page:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting#annex-1-vaccine-analysis-print

Vaccine Analysis Print – COVID-19 Pfizer/BioNTech Vaccine
TOTAL FATAL OUTCOME REPORTS 597

Vaccine Analysis Print – COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca
TOTAL FATAL OUTCOME REPORTS 1118

Vaccine Analysis Print – COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna
TOTAL FATAL OUTCOME REPORTS 19

That’s 1,734 reported deaths from the Covid vaccines compared to an average of 20 per year from all other vaccines combined over the previous 20 years. That’s 87x more deaths being reported from the Covid vaccines – and the UK began their rollout in December 2020, so it hasn’t even been 12 months.

It’s difficult to quantify this against the protection offered by the vaccines, but I’m not convinced that I’m better off getting vaccinated – particularly as the long term safety of the vaccines is still not known.

Pfizer’s own trial data – 22,000 vaccinated, 22,000 placebo over 6 months, showed good protection from Covid-19 but no reduction in all-cause mortality:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1.full
“During the blinded, controlled period, 15 BNT162b2 and 14 placebo recipients died”

So there’s probably not much in it – I’m inclined to think you’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t.

I’d be interested in any comments, and how others have fared with their own risk/benefit analysis of getting vaccinated.
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November 16, 2021 8:01am
- stewmar
  
  Take a chill pill
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:27am
  - 2ic
    
    Well I’m probably facing being unable to be around my own kids. So sorry, I’m not feeling particularly chill at the moment.
    
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    November 16, 2021 12:08pm
    - bronny1
      
      Why? If your kids are healthy you could give it to them without them even knowing they have it!
      And what’s more you are more likely to give it to them if you get vaxxed cos you might not even know you have it!!!
      
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      November 16, 2021 1:16pm
    - dannz
      
      Personally, I prefer an experimental treatment to an experimental disease.
      That’s pretty much what it boils down to.
      
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      November 16, 2021 2:35pm
      - Anthony Coates
        
        If that’s what it boils down to, I’d suggest boiling it again. =)
        
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        November 16, 2021 10:27pm
- mawm
  
  Start looking at beyond the immediate effects of the vaccines and look at long term problems, search out the all cause mortalities and the rise in relationship to vax roll out. Listen to those who are qualified about what happens to your immune system such as killer T cell depletion. What happens to your stem cells and a resultant decreased life span. It is all out there and by experts who are specialised in their fields.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:29am
  - Man Among the Ruins
    
    Just cite your civil and human rights. Going into the weeds about the medical unknowns (which are, however, manifold) is a bit of an unnecessary distraction from the fundamental issues of the bare right to refuse, which is affirmed in NZ’s law.
    
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    November 16, 2021 11:35am
  - 2ic
    
    I’d appreciate it if you could provide some links to reputable sources.
    
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    November 16, 2021 12:02pm
    - mawm
      
      Do you own research. Reid has a depth of knowledge that’s unbeaten, and provides good commentary and good links.
      I generally don’t keep record of the articles I read so here is just some interesting videos.
      https://www.bitchute.com/video/KwrjSPC8Jwi7/
      https://vladtepesblog.com/2021/10/29/peter-mccullough-speaks-to-mrna-shot-safety-efficacy-and-continued-need-for-early-treatment/
      https://www.americaoutloud.com/covid-and-your-cells-q-a-with-dr-peter-mccullough-and-dr-vincent-giampapa/
      https://brightlightnews.com/covid-vaccines-are-literally-weakening-the-immune-system-pathologist-dr-ryan-cole-md/
      https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/scotland-is-87-adult-vaccinated-weekly/comments
      
      I can’t find the long version of the Dr Cole video. It’s around. Peter McCullough is highly qualified and is pursuing developments in Covid and the vaccines. Alex Berenson is a good journalist to follow.
      
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      November 16, 2021 1:59pm
      - mawm
        
        I meant to include this link to read in conjunction with the Alex Berenson piece.
        https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/are-vaccines-driving-excess-deaths-in-scotland-a-professor-of-biology-asks/
        
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        November 16, 2021 2:12pm
- Matt Long
  
  I did a quick look at the numbers for asymptomatic Covid cases yesterday, studies are supposed to show numbers between 4 and 30 percent of cases are asymptomatic.
  Does anyone have any reliable numbers on this? Like a random antibody sampling trial verses symptomatic cases from the same population sample?
  I suspect the studies based on NZ refusing to allow antibody testing which may be an international trend. Also the information I saw didn’t talk about severity of symptoms.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:32am
  - MCos
    
    Over 90% of polio infections are asymptomatic. However 0.5% result in permanent paralysis.
    Polio is highly contagious.
    In the good old days a school of a thousand kids might have one or two kids crippled and that’s what scared the shit out of the parents.
    You can imagine what it was like when the vaccine came along.
    
    The covid-19 vaccines clearly aren’t as effective as the polio ones & they’re going to need constantly topping up, but it’s the best we’ve got as far as I’m concerned.
    Around 10% of known covid cases in NZ are fully vaccinated and 3% of subsequent hospitalizations, which is the important number both for the individual and the community.
    
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    November 16, 2021 10:03am
    - bronny1
      
      Hahahahahahha
      “Aren’t as effective” – is it three or four fully vaxxed people have now died of covid in the past fortnight?,
      
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      November 16, 2021 1:18pm
      - RightNow
        
        Counting the gunshot victim?
        Another death reported today, no disclosure of their vaccination status, so most likely also double jabbed.
        
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        November 16, 2021 2:12pm
    - Happy1
      
      There was a similar broha about the Salk vaccine. The developer of an alternative vaccine, Dr Sabin, was scathing in his criticism describing it as dangerous and experimental and predicted that it would be the biggest disaster ever. The Salk vaccine was made by multiplying full strength virus in monkey tissue and then adding formalin to kill the virus before injecting into the arm. Because of a manufacturing error one batch wasn’t killed properly and many kids got polio, some died. Fortunately the internet wasn’t around then and the various conspiracy theories never gained traction.
      
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      November 16, 2021 5:15pm
  - Anthony Coates
    
    I would suggest the asymptomatic figure could probably be recategorised as the false positive figure. Presymptomatic is certainly a thing, but the idea that someone is infected and infectious without having any symptoms… Pull the other one. That was the original lie that got all this nonsense started.
    
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    November 16, 2021 10:30pm
- Reid
  
  2ic I am also in your age cohort and my decision is to take the risk of not being vaxed in favour of praying if I get it I will get a doctor who will be willing to give me appropriate early treatment. I’ve been taking the same vitamins you are – the issue is that quercetin is a very weak zinc ionophore compared to HCQ and I know the script requires the medical community to pretend it’s not the answer to the pandemic, so I’m not expecting a good outcome for myself, just hoping and praying I’m wrong. So it’s a bloody big risk I’m taking, so why am I taking it?
  
  It’s because I have studied the crap out of the disease and the vaxes and what I have learnt leads me to conclude my risk of long time harm to myself via a permanently compromised immune system outweighs my risk of catching covid.
  
  The vax confers narrow-spectrum non-durable immunity to a covid strain that no longer exists. You have to get a booster every 6-8 months to rev up your immune system and no-one knows what the long term effects of having a permanently supercharged set of killer T-cells rampaging through your body, is, because they haven’t done any long term – 6 year – studies on it. Further, those killer T-cells are tuned to only look at a single protein in the virus genome, and if we get a variant that has a sufficiently mutated version of the spike, my immune response will be worse than useless, it will be non-existent, because my only killer cells responsible for all things coronavirus will be looking for a protein which the variant doesn’t have and it will ignore the variant completely.
  
  Furthermore there are the various vax side-effects and there is emerging evidence peoples immune systems are being compromised meaning this opens them up to cancers growing unchecked and any potential genetic diseases they are vulnerable to being accelerated so instead of getting them toward end of life they are going to start getting them much, much sooner.
  
  There is a lot more detail beneath each of those points, but those are my headline reasons for my own personal decision.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:36am
  - Doc Holliday
    
    “emerging evidence peoples immune systems are being compromised”
    
    Utter tripe!
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:30am
    - ClanMcleod
      
      Eloquent and rational response. Bravo. Bravo.
      
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      November 16, 2021 10:55am
    - Salacious Crumb
      
      Don’t you have some global warming bullshit to spout? Then again since when has dentistry been a science based specialty….
      
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      November 16, 2021 11:21am
    - Reid
      
      Not at all doc.
      
      Perhaps you’d like to see the FDA’s own list of potential vax side effects which appears at 2.33.40 of their vid on the Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee hearing – 10/22/2020.
      
      Here’s the prompted link but you’ll have to be quick, it only appears for half a second.
      
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XTiL9rUpkg&t=9220s
      
      As you will see when you stop it at the right place, autoimmune disease is listed as the last item on the left side list.
      
      Some will cry “but this is just a draft list!”
      
      To those skeptics one replies, why simply go to the VAERS data and lookup the list of covid vax side effects reported there and compare them to this FDA list. If you do that, you will find 100% correlation between the side effects reported in the VAERS system and the side effects listed on this slide.
      
      This means the FDA knew perfectly well what the potential risks were, yet they still went ahead and authorised it.
      
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      November 16, 2021 11:52am
    - krazykiwi
      
      Here’s some tripe for you to digest. Note that this research was in vitro. But interesting nevertheless.
      
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      November 16, 2021 12:04pm
  - 2ic
    
    Do you have any links to studies on the effect of the vaccines on your immune system?
    
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    November 16, 2021 11:58am
    - Reid
      
      Here’s one, and this one will give you enough keywords to look for the others.
      
      https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00329-3
      
      You should bear in mind the entire global medical community is by and large with few exceptions showing extreme reluctance to seriously study anything which may reflect negatively on their beloved vax. Apart from the obvious question of why the fuck are they taking that prima facie non-sensical approach with the most serious health emergency ever to face mankind, as this thing is marketed to be, it should also lead you to suspect that if there aren’t a lot of studies out there on any particular aspect of this issue, this doesn’t necessarily mean that said issue doesn’t exist, or isn’t serious.
      
      This is a time for wisdom my friend. Use it, and realise a lot of scientists out there are not, evidently, on the side of truth, openness and transparency. That should be obvious to everyone with a 3-digit IQ observing how this thing has rolled since January 2020, and that is not a theory, that is patently obvious reality.
      
      Also realise it’s not just the reduced immune system capability that’s the issue, it’s in the way the vax has trained your killer T-cells to only recognise coronavirus = spike protein, meaning your non-specific antibodies are now worse than useless. I covered that off in yesterday’s GD, search on that for my name and you’ll find those studies.
      
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      November 16, 2021 1:37pm
      - mawm
        
        This pandemic has been mismanaged. Every government, including New Zealand had existing pandemic plans that were shelved and the new “plan” introduced throughout the developed world. This did not gel with what I knew. I could not put it any better than this doctor. Give it a listen.
        https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1424573018001612806/vid/640×360/mtohy9TTwZ7fycGX.mp4?tag=14
        
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        November 16, 2021 6:21pm
    - Reid
      
      Here’s a video for those thinking my above comment was overstating the case:
      
      THIS IS THE BEST EXPLANATION TO COVID AND THE VACCINE IVE HEARD SO FAR ITS A MUST WATCH GUYS
      
      https://www.bitchute.com/video/LukPaRDJHysl/
      
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      November 16, 2021 1:54pm
      - 2ic
        
        Thanks. I’ll take a look at those links.
        
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        November 16, 2021 3:27pm
  - freemark
    
    I’m with you mate. Same rationale. Hopefully we can celebrate success beating the bastard rather than side-by-side in the ICU. If they let us in. This whole fiasco has been wrong from the start, this mandate bullshit confirms that there is some shit going on at higher levels that most people would be too horrified to even contemplate fractions of it. Stand up, fight back..RESIST.
    
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    November 16, 2021 1:10pm
- fisho
  
  Get vaccinated, it’ll reduce your chances of a bad infection, but tell whoever is administering it that you want them to aspirate the syringe before injecting, to confirm they haven’t hit a blood vessel. This is done by pulling back slightly on the plunger to check blood doesn’t flow back into the syringe. Apparently used to be the norm but not taught any more because it can make jabs slightly more painful.
  It appears many of the issues are related to unintentional intravascular/subcutaneous injection of the vaccine, it’s supposed to be administered intramuscularly. Plenty of research papers on the net relating to this, it isn’t tin-foil hat stuff.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:39am
  - Sacha
    
    The common result of even a minute amount of the vax injection into a blood vessel seems to be an immediate reaction to the injection “I can taste that” – or a metallic sensation in the mouth.
    It happens with seconds – and then it’s too late.
    (I know a chap who had his 2nd vax last Thursday – his arm was swollen and painful until Sunday. I saw it. He had the ‘funny taste’. He is fit, late 40s, but has the beginnings of a middle-aged tummy, and I am not about to alarm him, but I’m watching. )
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:23am
- bronny1
  
  I did the same analysis, I’m mid 40s. And it’s a no from me.
  When you see the indications that all cause mortality may be higher in the vaxxed IRL (there have been links to data from several countries showing this on prev posts), I believe it’s def worth waiting till we can see that outcome (or see that it’s not happening) more clearly.
  
  If you have no comorbidities you also improve the percentage considerably
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:39am
  - Sacha
    
    I am in my ’80s with a dodgy hip. I am lucky to be in excellent health. No vax for me!
    I found out about D-Dimer tests and right-sided heart failure last week. Not a nice medium term outcome .
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sIWb9GTbbE
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:32am
- Simon
  
  I looked at the types of people in hospital with covid. Basically insulin resistant, elderly with comorbidites.
  
  See:
  
  Among 4,899,447 hospitalized adults in PHD-SR, 540,667 (11.0%) were patients with COVID-19, of whom 94.9% had at least 1 underlying medical condition. Essential hypertension (50.4%), disorders of lipid metabolism (49.4%), and obesity (33.0%) were the most common. The strongest risk factors for death were obesity (adjusted risk ratio [aRR] = 1.30; 95% CI, 1.27–1.33), anxiety and fear-related disorders (aRR = 1.28; 95% CI, 1.25–1.31), and diabetes with complication (aRR = 1.26; 95% CI, 1.24–1.28), as well as the total number of conditions,
  
  https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2021/21_0123.htm
  
  Personally not in this area.
  
  Then personal risk assessment of the covd: here
  
  https://qcovid.org/Home/AcademicLicence
  
  Then the actual vaccine. We were told it was 95% efficient in preventing catching the virus. Now its you need boosters ever 6 months. You can catch and transmit the virus.
  
  Also given Pfizer own criminality
  see:
  
  Pfizer has been a “habitual offender,” persistently engaging in illegal and corrupt marketing practices, bribing physicians and suppressing adverse trial results. Since 2002 the company and its subsidiaries have been assessed $3 billion in criminal convictions, civil penalties and jury awards.
  
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC2875889/
  
  There are many other considerations. Eg Instinct Like the idea of a “warp speed” vaccine. Does not sit right. Vaccines used to take years to develop – because time is needed to test possible side effects.
  
  A few others.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:40am
  - Julie
    
    NZ has a serious problem with obesity already costing our health service. Yet knowing the risk of hospitalisation for the obese if they catch Covid we have complete silence from our health experts .
    They are more than happy to lecture us about the risks every day but not a word on one of the biggest risks to our population.
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:03am
- info@cruzpro.com
  
  2ic,
  
  Don’t know which country you live in but the data you link to is from countries with high Covid19 infections. If you live in a country with low numbers of Covid19 infections that will skew the numbers against getting vaccinated.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:40am
- Raphael
  
  For me this it worked down to:
  If you are unvaccinated, there is a 10% chance you will end up in hospital.
  If you are vaccinated, there is a 2% chance.
  As I had whooping cough, I already have damaged lungs. So that puts me at higher risk of maybe ending up in Hospital (as well as being slightly overweight, high BP and unfit in my early 40’s).
  So that is why I personally decided to get vaccinated.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:43am
- Albert_Ross
  
  The best advice you’re going to get here is not to base your medical decisions on the advice of strangers on the internet
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:44am
  - Ed Snack
    
    Yes, sure, rely on the government as your “sole source of the truth”. When you know that they have and continue to lie to you about aspects of this issue.
    
    Doing at least some research and validating that as far as possible is essential if you wish to be well informed. Because relying on this government is foolish, they do not have your best interests at heart, only THEIR best interests at heart.
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:27am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    Most of the people I’ve seen comment on here know far more about the virus, the vaccine and the impacts of both that any of the “experts” we see and read in the mainstream media. The most pleasing aspect is that there is actual debate and discussion, there is no attempt to claim “the science is settled” or that there is a “single source of truth”.
    Or maybe it’s just that they are more honest here. But the lies from the “experts” are unconscionable. No matter what this jab may do in reducing potential illness and death (debatable), it is NOT safe and it is NOT fully tested and approved. It’s still an experiment. The drive to jab, jab, jab is totally hysterical and without basis in logic. Same with the whole idiotic concept of a “vaccine passport”. Vaccinated pass the virus on as much as unvaccinated. The “passport” is a super spreader ticket.
    This virus is becoming endemic. Weigh up the risk of taking the jab yourself and make your own decision. Whatever you do, ignore the idiots on the television and in the mainstream media. They are bought and owned shills and will never question Ardern.
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:37am
    - MCos
      
      “Most of the people I’ve seen comment on here know far more about the virus, the vaccine and the impacts of both that any of the “experts” we see and read in the mainstream media.”
      
      A little learning is a dangerous thing;
      Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
      There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
      And drinking largely sobers us again.
      Alexander Pope
      
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      November 16, 2021 10:14am
      - ClanMcleod
        
        I don’t do poetry. I do science and data. I read and compare and do the best I can to make decisions based on that information.
        The vast bulk of the data is showing the jab narrative is collapsing. Yes, covid is potentially dangerous to some at risk people. They should take all precautions and should limit their movements. But the jab is not performing remotely as claimed and with every passing week the evidence emerging shows that situation getting worse. “Boosters” being the latest insanity.
        
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        November 16, 2021 11:03am
      - Bluegrass
        
        Indeed, MCos.
        
        I find many KB posters’ comments on Covid as useful information. Some of them have obviously invested considerable time on the topic.
        
        However, unfortunately in today’s’ zeitgeist, much of the data on the public record have been processed through a partisan political prism, and the debate inevitably degrades into a stats and facts game.
        
        As Confucius say – beware of bush lawyers and bush medicos.
        
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        November 16, 2021 1:34pm
- cmm
  
  “In my age bracket…”. That’s where you’re going wrong.
  
  Age brackets destroy information because they try to make an average out of a very wide range of people – only very few carry the risk and a very small number do not.
  
  What really matters is YOUR risk profile, not that of the sickest few people that are of a similar age to you.
  
  I would recommend you have a look at https://qcovid.org/ . Note this is not medical advice – I think it just worth doing so to help understand the statistical issues of working with age-group data.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:02am
- ClanMcleod
  
  You’ve done enough good analysis to know there is more risk of death or injury from the vaccine based on your circumstances.
  I’m over 60, relatively fit and healthy, not overweight. Taking Vit C, D, zinc and melatonin. I’m very happy to take my chances compared to an experimental drug that is falling over more and more with every month that passes. This experiment has a very long way to go.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:27am
  - 2ic
    
    I didn’t think you could get melatonin without a prescription in New Zealand.
    
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    November 16, 2021 11:54am
- doggone7
  
  Do you do the same risk analysis whenever a doctor prescribes something for you or for your kids? If so, how long have you done that?
  
  Do you think the 7.51 billion shots given worldwide should have been withheld for want of any “long term safety data?”
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:46am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    doggone7 – that’s one of the saddest things in all of this. My trust in the medical community has been destroyed by the events of the last 2 years. I believe there are many feeling the same way.
    I used to go to the doctor and do whatever they told me to do. No longer.
    Yes, I do think the shots should have been withheld until there was long term safety data. Covid was never dangerous enough to warrant the destruction that has unfolded. The collateral damage in the response is massive and will go on for decades.
    
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    November 16, 2021 11:07am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      Many millions (230,000,000+) of folks have been exposed to the virus in the Northern hemisphere and have recovered. They probably have some degree of natural immunity to a repeat Covid-19 infection.
      
      There’s only 5,000 or so NZers who are known to have recovered from Covid-19.
      
      Our choices are:
      Get infected with Covid-19 or
      Become a Pfizer junkie
      
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      November 16, 2021 12:05pm
    - doggone7
      
      There is little or no trust in the medical and science community by a lot of people. Fair enough. People make up their minds all the time about whom to trust, their accountant, their priest, the police, their kids’ teachers, their mechanics and technical people.
      
      Maybe the fields are fertile for alternative medical practices to flourish, witchcraft, people treating themselves, whatever.
      
      If the “collateral damage in the response is going top be massive and will go on for decades” what would the collateral damage have been without vaccinations?
      
      I don’t get the bit about Covid not being dangerous enough to warrant what has unfolded.
      Communities locked down, applied restrictions on movement, encouraged mask use, blocked or restricted free international movement and implemented isolation and quarantine regimes.
      Covid wasn’t that bad to warrant those things?
      
      Even with them over 5 million have died and it’s likely many hundreds of thousands have debilitating ongoing health issues.
      
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      November 16, 2021 5:39pm
  - 2ic
    
    I do my due diligence for any medical intervention for myself. but I’ve never been faced with a medication under emergency use authorisation that’s still in trials.
    
    Health professionals have been gagged from saying anything negative about the vaccines, so it’s difficult to get reliable information from both sides, which is required in the process of informed consent.
    
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    November 16, 2021 12:06pm
    - bronny1
      
      There is plenty of info and data available overseas. It may not be comprehensive but it is there.
      
      Every day lots of useful links are provided to this info in GD. Most of them are reputable sources and there is often duscussion a out them u der the link so you can increase your knowledge of the argument ts either way. I’d suggest going back through General Debate starting a couple weeks ago and reading the discussions and links.
      
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      November 16, 2021 1:47pm
- Aunty
  
  It’s safe, go and get it done. It’s certainly a lot safer than getting Covid which you most likely will if you remain unvaccinated. And don’t forget, there are some serious long-term side effects from the virus too, again these are far worse than anything you’ll get from the vaccine.
  
  The vaccine side effects are minor, and transitory. A friend of mine got his booster shot last week, he took the next day off because he felt crook, chills, body aches, and pains, and tired, all classic signs of a good old fashioned cytokine storm which means his immune system was responding nicely too and been boosted by the vaccine. He was back at work and feeling fine the next day. Of all the people I have known who have been vaccinated, myself included, he was the worst response so far. And let’s face it, it wasn’t that serious anyway.
  
  The only really serious side effect of the Pfizer mRNA vaccine is the very rare cases of myocarditis, which is inflammation that affects the heart. It happens more in younger men, typically around a week later. It is transitory and treatable. In the unlikely event you develop chest pains, just go to A&E, tell them you have been recently vaccinated, have chest pains, and want to be checked out for myocarditis.
  
  A couple of other things to consider. If you are so worried about the side effects of the vaccines, why aren’t you equally worried about getting the virus and its side effects? Covid deaths are due to the virus, not the vaccines. Do you think death from Covid is somehow less bad than death from the vaccine?
  
  And secondly don’t come to blogs such as these for medical advice. That is a very foolish thing to do. The contributors here are not medically qualified to give you any advice on any matter of a medical nature, most are profoundly biologically illiterate and ignorant, have little to no understanding of how the body works or about medicine, and have no solid foundation of qualified knowledge to correctly interpret research findings or the medical literature. If you want to come in here for advice about the vaccinations you might as well go and consult your local witch doctor too. They are all operating at about the same level.
  
  Go and have a chat with your GP.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:51am
  - Fletch
    
    There is no such thing as “transitory” or mild myocarditis. It permanently damages the heart and leaves scarring. As for me, I know of many who have had very bad reactions to the vaccine. Bells Palsy, bowel removal, etc. You must be one of the few who doesn’t know someone (or knows someone who knows someone) who hasn’t been injured by the vaccine. Almost everyone does.
    
    And then we look at the numbers in NZ. 33 dead of covid and 94 reported as having died because of the vaccine (and yes I know all their caveats, saying they can’t prove cases were connected yada yada, and I don’t buy it, especially after seeing Ardern and Bloomfield telling us in a media conference that they know for a certainty the year 13 girl from Ponsonby hadn’t died from anything to do with the vaccine when it’s obvious she did).
    
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    November 16, 2021 1:44pm
  - bronny1
    
    Do not rely on your GP. Most have no knowledge about this specific vaccine.
    
    Do not rely on random people telling you the vax is safe. Go look at VAERS.
    
    Do not believe anyone that tells you that dead heart muscle can regenerate.
    
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    November 16, 2021 1:49pm
  - Matt Long
    
    Ah the old “ask the experts” strategy, shall I talk to the GP who says vax everything, or the one who doesn’t trust the vaccine, because I know each one’s advice without asking.
    Blindly trusting any expert’s advice without doing your own due diligence and getting second opinions is a very poor life strategy.
    
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    November 16, 2021 2:12pm
  - The Housekeeper
    
    Four paragraphs of medical advice then –
    
    “don’t come to blogs like these for medical advice”
    
    Priceless.
    
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    November 16, 2021 3:38pm
  - doggone7
    
    I found information and perspectives.
    
    The advice?
    1. Don’t come to blogs such as these for medical advice.
    2. “Go and have a chat with your GP.”
    And 3. “It’s safe, go and get it done.”
    
    Are those medical advice?
    I believe there are hundreds of thousands of scientists and doctors who’d give that last bit of advice so I don’t think that’s controversial. Unless you’re a GP in Murupara or a non-registered unhappy American pharmacist in Northland.
    
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    November 16, 2021 5:22pm
- UrbanNeocolonialist
  
  I saw a graph recently that said about 90% of deaths for middle aged and above are for those with serious comorbidities, So IFR for healthy people in your age group is likely closer to 10% of your number.
  
  A good way to look at it is that for a given age group your unvaccinated risk of death from covid is about 10 weeks worth of your usual non-covid all-causes risk of death – the inherent risk of being alive at any given age. But with no comorbidities it seems that it is closer to 1 week of that normal risk (ie you are 50x more likely to die of something other than covid this year even if you catch it), and with vaccination about 1 day. Ie on an individual basis it is practically zero, irrelevant to the way you live, we all take bigger risks for fun. Only way the numbers get noticeable is because we are talking a population of 5million – but almost all the deaths are for comorbidities.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:57am
- quarterpack
  
  I to, am in the same age bracket, fully vaxed. all other considerations aside if you accept
  1)Covid is a very very unpleasant virus, probably not fatal to you or I but with life changing results in terms of time off work
  2) You will very soon exposed to the virus
  Then I would suggest you are still better off with this rather flawed vaccine
  Full credit for your research which I have read with interest
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:08am
- Mr_Blobby
  
  My guess is that the MOH default setting is a big fat NO.
  
  Doctors would have been told no medical exemptions no exceptions.
  
  It would be easier and less painful to get an abortion.
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:14am
- Man Among the Ruins
  
  Risk/benefit analyses are worthwhile, but ultimately, they shouldn’t be needed as justification for refusing vaccination: your fundamental human and civil rights are sufficient for that purpose.
  
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  November 16, 2021 11:30am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  FWIW, I’m in a similar position to yourself, age & general health wise. I’ve opted not to take the Pfizer vax for the moment, as there’s been no covid in my area for quite sometime. Given its reported decline rate in efficacy, it seemed pointless to receive the needle (pun intended) at this time.
  
  From the reading I’ve done, I’m interested in Novavax & Valneva, but the jury’s still out on those too, both in terms of efficacy & likely availability.
  
  I’m also conscious that great is the enemy of good. I review my position on a daily basis. If the virus looks like getting out of hand locally then I may well sign up & then isolate for a few weeks prior to the second jab. I can work from home & get my necessities delivered. Not my preferred outcome, but hey, it’s a global pandemic.
  
  Not medical advice but I hope that helps.
  
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  November 16, 2021 12:45pm
- Jim
  
  2ic I 100% follow your analysis and have done similar research for months now. Amongst the biggest ever public frauds is the statistical basis of promoting ‘relative’ (not absolute) risk reduction of vaccines. This is quite farcical and one of the most effective public delusions since new McDonalds rebranded by saying they were healthy because they sold salads and apple pie!
  Sadly I have concluded the primary driver can’t be public health, as the global response would also (in addition to pharma promo) be advocating healthy lifestyles, physical exercise and cessation of smoking etc.
  Multiple reputable international sources state that older age and metabolic health are the two principal factors that affect poor c19 outcomes.
  As such I expect the c19 reality will soon have biggest effect (hospitalisations etc) on a relatively unhealthy sector of our population, who could have been educated over the past 18 months to make lifestyle changes necessary to mitigate their c19 risk. This situation is likely to expose insufficient hospital capacity caused by successive mismanagement by Gov and DHBs and much public anger (in addition to those cancelled elective services). The natural seasonal variation (summer) should afford some ‘flattening of the curve’ but I doubt if ‘vaccination status’ (or face masks) will offer any guaranteed escape for those most vulnerable.
  
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  November 16, 2021 2:24pm
- TS Child
  
  Hi 2ic,
  With respect, I think you’re using the wrong metrics. It’s true that the vaccine probably only slightly improves your survivability, however it markedly reduces the risk of what can be a deeply unpleasant illness – which is what it is designed to do. It is also true that the long-term data does not exist and won’t for many years. The most likely finding from the data we do have is that the vaccine will need regular boosters. More importantly, and less measurably, if not having the vaccine means you can’t see your family, can’t engage in society in a way that works for you, then that can be an immediate and enormous cost that outweighs the vaccine risk. At the end of the day only you can decide what works for you. Being forced to have a vaccine sucks. Not being able to see your family? That’s a high price to pay for what is likely a very small risk. We take social risks all the time – when we drive, food and drink choices, stress … a whole bunch of things that have known long term poor risk profiles. And we take risks for those we love all the time. This is just another one. It seems so much worse because the government is… well, is. But family and friends make life worth living. I hope this helps…
  
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  November 16, 2021 5:05pm
  - Jim
    
    Good perspective.
    
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    November 16, 2021 8:34pm
NeverMindTheBollocks

It’s just typical of this government that when they do manage to offer a second vaccine, it’s one that is similar but less effective than their first option.

It’s the socialist mindset – if you complain, you’ll be offered worse.
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November 16, 2021 8:02am
Maggie Pie

Things that make you go “hmmm”

‘Maori make up 15% of the population…. but currently account for 60% of our Covid cases’

– Mike Hosking, 1ZB.
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November 16, 2021 8:03am
- Frank the tank
  
  What should be more telling is what % of gang members, transitionary housing recipients and crystal meth users Maori are.
  
  It’s those groups that are largely spreading this virus.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:11am
  - Littletramp
    
    Agree with FTT, If the covid outbreak had begun in Auckland’s “Northern Club” you may find the demographics of positive cases somewhat different. Beware of jumping to conclusions after hearing some statistics. Lies, damn lies and statistics!
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:49am
- kowtow
  
  Robbo told us why a wee while back .
  
  Young people not following the rules , partying.
  
  Team of 5 million , not.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:15am
  - Mr_Blobby
    
    I say party on.
    
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    November 16, 2021 10:17am
  - Bridgenag
    
    From another
    “I have received a text to say that the Puke Nth gang had a party over the weekend and Covid is now rife in the town… No testing, no scanning… Govt not saying anything etc. Obviously I have no way of verifying this –”
    
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    November 16, 2021 11:42am
- Brian McDonald
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  Probably correct data Maggie. But no hmmh here, it has been clear for over a Century there is little widespread trust by Maori in European culture/Governments, especially after the breach of the Treaty in stealing land.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:17am
  - G152
    
    You mean like for example the treatment of the Chatham Islanders by Maori ?????
    
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    November 16, 2021 8:21am
    - Paulus Gnome
      
      Good to remember on the International Day for Tolerance . . .
      
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      November 16, 2021 8:36am
  - All_on_Red
    
    Yes Brian, because before the Europeans arrived, Maori lived in a perfect world of harmony and trust with their neighbours. No one ever invaded their territory and stole their land. (big sarc on that one!)
    Their life outcomes were outstanding. If they could avoid being eaten then they would live to the ripe old age of 32
    //
    
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    November 16, 2021 8:36am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    The vaccines have nothing to do with “culture”. They have been developed by scientists. Teams of multi disciplinary scientists from dozens of nations.
    
    Are you saying that people of Maori ethnicity in 2021 are incapable or reviewing science? I don’t trust the New Zealand Government either.
    
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    November 16, 2021 8:36am
  - Julie
    
    If this was the issue then why are the over 65 year old Maori as highly vaccinated as other groups?
    Surely there memories of such injustice would be more pertinent?
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:07am
    - sooty
      
      Those maori aged over 65yrs are unlikely to be gang members, maybe!
      
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      November 16, 2021 11:39am
  - kowtow
    
    In which case they wouldn’t have any trust in each other , at all.
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:10am
  - Ruawai
    
    Brian, Maori have the same access to hospitals and education as all New Zealander’s and the effects of colonisation are on balance positive outcomes.
    
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    November 16, 2021 10:04am
  - The Housekeeper
    
    I dunno Brian, my cuzzies have always trusted their benefits will be paid
    
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    November 16, 2021 3:53pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  Yes and that will continue. I have noticed that the “racist” health system explanation has faded away.
  
  Honestly if they are too stupid or lazy to get vaccinated that is the outcome. Time to cut them loose and get back to normal. People either accept the considerable benefits of the vaccine (and understanding its limitations) or they don’t. Convincing people who wail about ivermectin and monoclonal antibodies and their ‘natural immunity’ and freedom – waste of time. There is not a single person in New Zealand today who has not had the opportunity to get vaccinated.
  
  Maori vaccination rates for the over 65s are impressive. That is good to see. The rates that are pathetic are those younger than that. People in their 20s, 30s have little to worry about. Unvaccinated obese or diabetic Maori in their 40s, 50s, and 60s are lunatics. They are going to be in for a hell of time. Most will not die of course but they will feel like they are dying.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:20am
  - Simon
    
    Maori have darker skin & higher average rates of obesity which means lower Vit D absorption. So would expect more covid problems than say European.
    
    Lol – TofW wrongs. Fucking clown world.
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:43am
  - ByGolly
    
    Might you consider laying off the “stupid or lazy ” tags for the unvaccinated Benedict?
    
    It’s nasty and unhelpful.
    
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    November 16, 2021 11:27pm
- Sideoiler
  
  Things that make you go “hmmm”
  
  ‘Maori make up 15% of the population…. but currently account for 60% of our Covid cases’
  
  – Mike Hosking, 1ZB.
  
  I would be even more interested the cost per double jabbed maori vs the cost of every other double jabbed person.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:02am
  - sooty
    
    Suppose that depends on the incentives!
    
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    November 16, 2021 11:41am
    - Nickc2
      
      Don’t you mean BRIBES?
      
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      November 16, 2021 11:50am
      - sooty
        
        You do say that eloquently!
        
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        November 16, 2021 4:38pm
  - UrbanNeocolonialist
    
    So causing 7x more covid problems than general population.
    
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    November 16, 2021 11:56am
- Prince
  
  Must be that our DoH reporting is racist.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:41am
fightingtemeraire

So Duncan Garner tells everyone he is double jibby jabbed and everyone should be like him

He Presto he now has CV 19!!!
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November 16, 2021 8:07am
- Random T Person
  
  Some twit has on their profile on Facebook ‘I’m vaccinated. You’re welcome.’ what a condescending twat
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:53am
Reid

Important information for people to consider as they decide whether or not to vax their children. You owe it to your kids to consider and weigh views that run counter to the official propaganda, because they can’t. Even if you decide to go ahead, you should be aware of the data and the studies they have on here.

https://unityprojectonline.com/
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November 16, 2021 8:07am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Thanks – I don’t have time to read it but I agree with the aim. It is unethical to vaccinate 5 year olds to protect obese 60 year olds. And effectively that is what will happen.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:24am
  - Ed Snack
    
    Or 12-17 year olds as well.
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:30am
    - Man Among the Ruins
      
      It’s unethical to vaccinate anyone without true consent to protect anyone else (as well as being utterly illogical).
      
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      November 16, 2021 11:42am
  - Tom Hunter
    
    Yes, I went into a fair bit of detail here with a post The Kids Are Alright:
    
    “Thinking that everyone must be vaccinated is as scientifically flawed as thinking that nobody should. COVID vaccines are important for older high-risk people, and their care-takers. Those with prior natural infection do not need it. Nor children.”
    
    What fringe nutter said that? What weirdo website came up this guy?
    
    Dr. Martin Kulldorff is a professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School and a biostatistician and epidemiologist at the Brigham and Women’s Hospital. He helped develop the CDC’s current system for monitoring potential vaccine risks.
    …
    A Harvard Medical School colleague specializing in drug and vaccine safety research, Jeffrey Brown, said that Kulldorff is a “world-class” vaccine safety “superstar,” “His qualifications are spectacular,…He’s an international expert in vaccine safety. No one on earth would question whether he’s qualified. … He’s a pioneer.”
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:31am
- krazykiwi
  
  Here’s some analysis of vax vs vaccine risk for UK teens: –
  Are the Vaccines Killing UK Teens?.
  
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  November 16, 2021 12:33pm
Jack5

Kiwiblog followers who are in the real estate business may tell us whether New Zealand has in the property market “algorithm house buying,” also known as “I-buying”, and if so how big it is.

Bidders at Christchurch auctions tell of last-minute phone bids from Auckland topping off and killing bidding by disappointed local first-home seekers. It seems to fit “algorithm buying”, which is speculators known in America as “I-buyers”, using computer estimates of valuations. They buy then flick the house on at a higher price.

“Investopedia”, the online financial information site says hedge funds, investment banks, and special trading firms dominate algorithmic trading, usually with systems they have developed themselves with their specialist staffs, and their own data centres. However, off-the-shelf algorithmic trading software is available for smaller financial fish, and this would be what any New Zealand traders are using.

In addition to off-the-shelf systems, there are web sites that will help you develop your own trading programs.

Algorithm trading isn’t infallible. A prominent American user, Zillow, is shutting down its technology-based house trading, and laying off thousands of employees.

Using public records and a computer algorithm, its web site, Zillow, began by providing potential sellers with an estimate – a “zestimate” of a house’s value.

Three years ago, Zillow expanded into buying and selling houses based on its own estimates.

An article in the Telegraph describes the mode of business:

Home owners could log on and receive an algorithmically-generated estimate of how much Zillow was willing to pay – typically a slight discount to what they might expect from the gruelling sale experience.

The deal would be completed in as little as a week, at which point the company would apply a lick of paint to the property and sell it on at a small profit

After shutting down its house buying, Zillow now must quit thousands of houses it has in stock, at a cost, says the Telegraph, of hundreds of millions of dollars.

It’s a reasonable guess that algorithm traders, with lesser off-the-shelf software, are working the New Zealand housing market.
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November 16, 2021 8:07am
- In Vino Veritas
  
  Jack, interesting, but you’d have to have a seriously high risk profile, and a bloody great wodge of capital. The issue, particularly in Auckland, is that house flippers have been paying close to the edge of profitability for a long while now. Whereas 10 years ago, you could make $50k in say 4 months, now it’s $2-$20k if you are lucky. There is stiff competition for properties, flippers are often not even bothering to make slight improvements now (paint job, some new carpet etc). So buying unseen based on a computer algorithm (gambling) would take nuts of steel.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:25am
- All_on_Red
  
  Not sure that is what is happening but in my view Christchurch is undervalued compared to the rest of NZ.
  Covid has shown us we can work anywhere, so perhaps NZ should be seen as one Real Estate market.
  This seems to be born out by the growth in values in the Provinces. I dont think Chch has fully caught up on that yet. Its moving but I think there’s still upside.
  Maybe these buyers are just recognising that.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:44am
  - Jack5
    
    That’s an interesting view, All_on_Red.
    
    I wonder whether different salary-wage levels would affect that.
    
    Typically, Auckland incomes have been regarded as higher than in the rest of the country, and notably higher than in smaller regional towns. This suggests Auckland house owners can service higher mortgage debt.
    
    I wonder if that is reflected in house prices.
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:10am
- Reid
  
  Blackrock is buying up residential real estate in the US in a big way. They are moving out of stocks and bonds into physical assets, is why. They will rent the houses out.
  
  That is probably why the quants have also apparently moved into this market. They follow the money, as you know.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:50am
  - In Vino Veritas
    
    Inflation hedge Reid. Real estate value always tracks with inflation. Plus there’s the normal upside gains via supply and demand. As long as there isn’t a finance bubble (Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac), they will have a nice safe haven.
    
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    November 16, 2021 12:40pm
    - Reid
      
      I think it’s far more than that IVV. Part of the upcoming reset is to destroy the USD and go toward global digital currencies. That also plays into their physical asset strategy.
      
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      November 16, 2021 2:40pm
- Colville
  
  I call BS.
  
  For anyone to buy sight unseen and then beat the locals who have waked thru it and done DD by definition they are buying at the top of the market.
  For them to then be able to flick it off and MAKE money …just no way.
  Passing costs on the transaction (buy and sell) would be at least 5% and then there is maintenance and management. So to make a 5% margin you are going to have to re-sell at $80,000 to $100,000 above your top of the market purchase price.
  That isnt balls of steel , its rocks in the head.
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:53am
Ruahine

Am I right in believing that more people have been illegally killed in New Zealand in the last year than have died from Covid 19 during the same period.
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November 16, 2021 8:08am
- MCos
  
  You could say on that basis we’ve got off lightly then haven’t we?
  In America, for example, there’s somewhere in the order of 100,000 deaths from homicides, suicides, road toll, per annum.
  Their death toll from covid is several multiples greater than that.
  
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  November 16, 2021 12:43pm
  - Bluegrass
    
    NZ 5m people. USA 370M.
    
    …
    
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    November 16, 2021 1:55pm
peterwn

Forthcoming rail strike. Now I thought that the very reason for a Labour government was to stop this sort of thing happening. I thought out of kindness Jacinda would have had a few words with the Fat Controller and all would be honkey dorey.
Things are a bit more awkward since the last strike decades ago. The Auckland and Wellington unit drivers are not employed by Kiwirail, so presumably would be twiddling their thumbs on full pay (the units cannot run since the train controllers and the Wellington signal box operators would be on strike too).
Bus replacements? Nah! that would be strike busting.
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November 16, 2021 8:12am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Railways. where the staff are not Railway employees? Which pub do they go to after work?
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:42am
Yvette

Ardern, Labour dip in support, Collins plunges to lowest approval rating – 1News Colmar Brunton Poll

Preferred PM:
Jacinda Ardern: 39% (down 5%-points)
David Seymour: 11% (steady)
Judith Collins: 5% (steady)

both excerpts same page: https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/11/15/ardern-labour-dip-in-support-collins-plunges-to-lowest-approval-rating-1news-colmar-brunton-poll/

How does someone who is “steady” or “unchanged”, plunge anywhere?
But media bias is perhaps more dangerous when it is not so obvious.
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November 16, 2021 8:12am
- G152
  
  The polls are taken in areas conducive to the customer.
  That drop is a lot more throughout the land, a whole lot more
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:24am
- peterwn
  
  There was also an ‘approval rating’ question:
  ‘Judith Collins 25% approve, 57% disapprove = -31% (-12%[down]) net approval’. Odds are the question was framed to elicit that sort of result.
  However much water has to flow under the bridge before the next election, so it is a bit premature to be talking about leadership change. The polls do not recognise the solid behind the scenes work that Judith is putting in team building and coaching her MP’s to do the hard work and get on top of their shadow portfolios.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:38am
  - Taieri
    
    The polls do not recognise the solid behind the scenes work that Judith is putting in team building and coaching her MP’s to do the hard work and get on top of their shadow portfolios.
    ——————–
    
    Perhaps it’s the time to enlighten the voters about all this “behind the scenes work”. How can the polls reflect its credence if potential voters know nothing about it?
    
    My own example; voted National in all elections since 1984, yet at the moment I can’t see myself doing so again. Why? They simply have nothing to offer to me as a voter and no vision for the country. At least in my perception. And perception is precisely that what guides an average Joe Bloggs.
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:34am
    - Flossie
      
      Serious question then. Who would you vote for? I just couldn’t ever see voting for the current lot, including the Greens. I know it’s not good to say a vote for a very small party is a wasted vote, but it really is isn’t it? So my choice just now would be National.
      
      I do wish the msm would give them a bit of a fair go though
      
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      November 16, 2021 10:51am
      - Taieri
        
        Who would you vote for?
        ————–
        
        To be honest I don’t know. May be ACT, but I’m still a bit undecided about them.
        
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        November 16, 2021 11:17am
      - Bridgenag
        
        Try NNP New National Party
        
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        November 16, 2021 11:45am
      - sooty
        
        Winston, the he could fix what he buggered up by putting this lot! Serve the bugger right!
        
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        November 16, 2021 11:49am
      - Nickc2
        
        The MSM are paid to steer favourable opinion in the direction of the Labour Party. About $110m at last count.
        
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        November 16, 2021 11:58am
    - peterwn
      
      Voters would not know too much about the work if the MSM chooses to under-report or to report in a snide manner what Judith and co are doing. Looks as if the $55M taxpayer funded payola is doing its stuff for the Labour Party. An important challenge for Judith and her team is to break through this MSM ‘wall’.
      If you do not see yourself voting National, there is ACT. Abstaining is equivalent to giving Labour/Greens a half vote. A vote for Winston is like playing Roulette.
      
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      November 16, 2021 11:01am
- Cinematic
  
  No change being a plunge is a lie.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:45am
- gump
  
  @Yvette
  
  You are getting confused between the approval rating and the preferred PM rating.
  
  They’re completely different questions. This is explained in the article which you presumably haven’t read.
  
  The net approval rating for Collins has collapsed. Voters think she is awful:
  
  ———————————
  
  Approval ratings are calculated by the number of people who approve of Collins’ performance as National leader, minus the amount of people who disapprove.
  
  Of those polled, 25% approved and 57% disapproved – giving Collins an approve rating of -31.
  
  In May, Collins was on -19, in November 2020 she got +9, and when she took over as leader she got +27 in July 2020.
  
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  November 16, 2021 11:18am
KevO'Brien

James Shaw didn’t help. The background to the final outcome: zilch (Thankfully).
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/11/14/cop26-ends-in-humiliating-failure/
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November 16, 2021 8:12am
- Master Mariner
  
  Pays to turn up on time to have any input,
  Typical Green Modis Operandi, Turn up late.
  Thank Christ for that.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:38am
  - sooty
    
    To think that we all paid a fortune for him to strut there like a peacock at first class rates, with his party in economy.
    Plus he will have a side trip jolly, shopping and going to trendy cafes, etc!
    
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    November 16, 2021 11:59am
    - Frank the tank
      
      C’mon be kind – he’ll come away from COPOUT26 with a couple of magic beans
      
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      November 16, 2021 2:03pm
  - Nickc2
    
    IMO, the upside of this is that whatever Shaw demands now doesn’t have the sanction of COP26.
    I’d like National and ACT to constantly remind him of this. However, I’m not holding my breath.
    … [deleted. mod.]
    
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    November 16, 2021 12:07pm
Frank the tank

16th of November – what is my vaccine passport?
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November 16, 2021 8:13am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Next November. Gotta keep control
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:17am
  - Frank the tank
    
    Can’t wait till I get to the Goldy (mid 2023) and I try to use it and get denied entry to the local surf club.
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:54am
I remember when

So here we are in the ‘new’ world, where we have so many teachers and healthcare workers we can summarily dismiss some of them.
Luckily they aren’t teachers who are prepared to argue against things they find fault with.
If we finish up with perhaps 5% less teachers, will they all be from the poorest performing group.
In a year or so, when all the hysteria has evaporated (global warming may help), will it still seem like a good idea.
Will their termination be the reason covid finally comes to an end.
Can’t wait for that decisive 90% vaccinated vs unvaccinated science.
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November 16, 2021 8:15am
- DeepBlue
  
  No worries, all the flight attendants and travel agents will be able to preach the new Ardern Thought Curriculum as well as any professional teacher. //.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:44am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

So medical professionals who don’t trust the vaccine are going to be fired?
Righto!
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November 16, 2021 8:16am
- rockape
  
  Yep in my local DHB about 10% of the emergency staff have gone. On the other side if they don’t meet the Manning levels in a month then every working nurse will be titled to $1000 bonus per month for the extra workload caused by being understaffed. Part of the last MECA agreement.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:41am
- kevn
  
  @SteveO… I must tell the very successful owner/operator pharmacist mate. Who is waiting for Novavax,
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:43am
Tony Stuart

Check out this video from yesterday’s presser at Parliament, and check out the sudden change in the PM’s demeanor when Barry Soper was allowed to ask a follow-up question:

https://twitter.com/_MaccaNZ/status/1460104778059370500

We’ve all heard the expression “the mask slipped”; here it is, captured on video!
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November 16, 2021 8:17am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Losing control and she knows it. She also knows that we know.
  Popcorn.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:22am
- rockape
  
  It’s called rbf or resting bitch face.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:43am
- Nickc2
  
  Kindergarten stuff!
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:54am
- Peter Lane
  
  That look said it all.
  
  So unprofessional.
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:32am
  - sooty
    
    Barry Soper allowed to ask a question, what’s the world coming to? Shit she didn’t like that did she!
    
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    November 16, 2021 12:07pm
plc

Yesterday I phoned a mate I hadn’t caught up with since Feb 2020. At that time our weekly coffee had become quite fraught as he was aghast at my view that a Trump presidency was favourable to having Hilary Clinton elected.

Because covid and life we hadn’t caught up so I took the opportunity yesterday to touch base.

It was interesting because I had thought with him having his own family in Australia he might be less than impressed with the handling of the last 18 months.

I was really surprised when he told me that “we are really enjoying our covid life”. His kids are all domiciled here in Wellington and he has regular contact with them. He’s also taking the opportunity to see more of NZ and indicated that tourism operators are now starting to pivot towards NZ customers. Finally he indicated that he was happy with all the efforts the government had made to get us to 90% double vaccination.

It got me thinking that there really is a diversity of opinion out there. He is a smart intellectually curious guy, successful in business, financially secure and happy that he is getting to spend more time with his family. I come here to Kiwiblog each day and I get get confirmation of my own views and think they are representative of NZ in general.

Personally I couldn’t disagree with him more – and I’m sure a lot of small business owners would be the same. But it really stuck with me the phrase “we are enjoying our Covid life” – that some people don’t have the abhorrence of this government and its performance that I have.
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November 16, 2021 8:17am
- emmess
  
  “we are enjoying our Covid life”
  Tell him, “it’s not a game”
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:44am
- Ruahine
  
  plc
  I quite agree with you. Many of my acquaintances are very happy with what the Gov’t is doing. No tourists coming. No immigrants. They do not care about Auckland. Never come to Auckland. Never go to the South Island. Never have any wish to travel overseas, especially to Australia. Many have Gov’t and Local gov’t jobs. have not taken any real loss of wages or salaries. Evidently the Finance Minister has the books under control and anyway America and Japan have much more debt than us and John Key borrowed more money than Labour has apparently.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:47am
- KevO'Brien
  
  I am seeing serious mental health being damaged by it and impacting the hospital demands too. My family world wide are suffering.
  
  Most people are being very tolerant but it could all be coming to a head.
  I can put up with a “vaccine” scam as a profitable opportunity for Big Pharma but a hidden de-population attempt? I’m not calling it yet but it is getting more suspect daily.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:53am
- cmm
  
  Ask him if his grandkids are going to enjoy their Covid debt?
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:08am
  - Taieri
    
    Ask him if his grandkids are going to enjoy their Covid debt?
    ————-
    
    What debt? There’re no debts anymore. The Modern Monetary Theory says so…
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:37am
  - Nigel Kearney
    
    If they’re smart they will not stick around once this is over.
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:43am
    - Man Among the Ruins
      
      And go where exactly? The insanity is not restricted to New Zealand, it’s global.
      
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      November 16, 2021 11:48am
  - gump
    
    The whole point of Quantitive Easing programs like LSAP is that the Reserve Bank ends up owning most of the new debt that is issued by Treasury.
    
    Under MMT we are effectively lending money to ourselves. The debt is illusory.
    
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    November 16, 2021 11:29am
    - cmm
      
      There is no Reserve Bank. There is only us.
      
      The bottom line is that any time you print more money without growing the value, it fuels inflation because the same amount of stuff is now represented by an increased amount of money.
      
      People need an 8% increase in wages/salary to compensate for a 5% inflation caused by the money printing.
      
      Anyone getting less than an 8% increase is going backwards.
      
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      November 16, 2021 1:47pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Just borrow enough money to cover the debt
    
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    November 16, 2021 11:31am
    - Flossie
      
      My ex, back in the 70s, went to the bank and wrote a cheque to cover his overdraft. I am not kidding!
      So embarrassing standing there while the poor teller tried to explain basic finance to him.
      
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      November 16, 2021 1:34pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        I knew two guys (not saying who, both passed) that set up buying a very small business doing the same. One cheque was sent through layers to the other guy’s lawyer fast enough so no bouncing, then returned another cheque to the first guy. They purchased on combined overdrafts – had no money.
        The business thrived!
        
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        November 16, 2021 4:52pm
- Fletch
  
  Hmmm, you can tell by the protests though (of which there are many more still to come) that there are a lot of unhappy people out there. I know of nurses and teachers who have had to finish yesterday.
  
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  November 16, 2021 11:31am
- Fuzzysnuggleduck
  
  Yep, they exist.
  It is worth looking outside Kiwiblog now and then and seeing the folk fuming about Collins, Seymour and the ‘Natzis;.
  Just like some people consider Labour as full-blown communist, others consider the centre-right as full blown fascists.
  There isn’t that much of a difference other than pace of change, and degrees of severity…and perhaps competence of the team in the ‘centre-left’ and ‘centre-right’.
  The Green’s have nutters, and Labour has a dangerous in-group bias around race, or envy-politics…but I wouldn’t assume the Nats under Muller or Luxon would be a polar opposite to Labour.
  Just Labour-lite with better project management, and not as ‘full retard’ on He Puapua, but still takes for granted the Treaty industry, and socialism.
  
  But yeah, look outside and there are what seems to be intelligent (and non-intelligent) people arguing just as passionately for continued MIQ, lockdowns, mandates, and Ardern as a super-star who has done incredibly well.
  
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  November 16, 2021 1:01pm
Brian McDonald

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Do the Nats take to Judith and ignore the small rise in popularity shown in the recent polls?
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November 16, 2021 8:18am
- Frank the tank
  
  Does Labour start planning for life without Brenda now her star is beginning to fall?
  Is the electorate ready for a more dimwitted, beltway obsessed Gordon Brown clone?
  Do the Greens ditch Marama given Chloe is now on the preferred PM polling?
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:52am
  - Flossie
    
    If the Greens had a half a brain between them they would ditch Marama anyway regardless of Chloe’s polling. But then maybe Chloe isn’t racially diverse enough?
    
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    November 16, 2021 10:56am
  - Nickc2
    
    Do the Greens ditch Marama given Chloe is now on the preferred PM polling?
    That’d be a catfight to beat all catfights!
    They’ll probably throw James Shaw under a Coal Train with an Iranian Driver and Mexican Guard before that happens.
    
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    November 16, 2021 12:31pm
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      Last Night on TV , Marama Davidson said she had no idea why the Green Party Comms staff had told the journalist that he could not interview Chloe Swarbrick about her Poll rating.
      
      Looks like someone in Greens is trying to keep a lid on Chloe.
      
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      November 16, 2021 1:42pm
      - Nickc2
        
        That audible rumbling in the distance is the Coal Train.
        
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        November 16, 2021 1:45pm
      - Frank the tank
        
        BMW Jimmy goes away and the cats play…..
        
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        November 16, 2021 2:02pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Savage!
      
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      November 16, 2021 4:54pm
raven

I remember when you could go to Flight Centre and get a good deal for Raro, you just needed to book leave from work, then relax with cocktail hour watching the sunset. I remember when kids ran around being kids and did sports, swimming and camps. When beer and wine festivals meant catching up with friends, when you could jump in the car and go for a road trip to anywhere and stop anywhere along the way.

I realised last night that this isn’t “like” living in a dystopian world, but this is living in a dystopian world.

And the science they tell you isn’t the science that makes sense.
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November 16, 2021 8:19am
- kowtow
  
  To add to that dystopianism , the Great and the Good have decided that our society and civilisation , built on freedom and ‘fossil ‘ fuels can now do without either .
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:51am
- Ruawai
  
  Agree Raven, I was just saying to family last night we need to do something different each day to mix up the sameness that everyday has become with nothing to look forward to. The worry is that the longer it goes on the more used to it we become and just roll over and think it is normal and in fact want it to stay like this as people become scared of the real world.
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:31am
  - raven
    
    Ruawai, yes that’s a good plan. We discussed similar – having a few outdoor activities planned, so provides both exercise and something to look forward to.
    
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    November 16, 2021 8:10pm
- Fletch
  
  I wonder if we’ll ever get back to those halcyon days. Doesn’t look like it at the moment.
  
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  November 16, 2021 11:20am
  - raven
    
    Seems like another life. I feel for the parents of 6 year olds and under, as their living memories would be COVID related, and not the before time.
    
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    November 16, 2021 8:14pm
Truman lodge

The Herald understands the border will go mid December but still with potential spot checks on selected vehicles.

Lol!!! This is getting farcical now, giving us lollies to keep the kiddies from misbehaving. They will not let us out over Xmas that I am convinced. If this was Poland or Serbia people would burn the border down. But not nz, we will do as we are told.

Be Kind
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November 16, 2021 8:20am
- In Vino Veritas
  
  Truman “the Herald understands”. That’s an oxymoron for a start.
  And the only way the Herald find anything out is by being told by the Labour Government. Who are of course testing the waters with regard to feedback re spot checks. You can bet that any cars with Maori or Islanders will be given a free pass. Wouldn’t want to appear racist would they? After all, black lives matter.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:44am
  - Truman lodge
    
    Vino
    
    That’s absolutely right!
    
    However Vaxinda said we would need proof of a negative test and double jab. So people need their papers but might not be asked to produce them? How are people going to get tests done that last 72 hours on Dec 24th.
    
    It sounds like smuggling drugs through Athens Airport in the 70s. Random spot checks with lax security.
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:18am
    - krazykiwi
      
      I tried smuggling drugs through Jakarta airport a few years ago. ‘Ester C’ vitamin tablets. When stopped, I tried to explain what they were. The language/accent barrier resulted in some tense moments. Try saying ‘Ester C’ out loud to yourself 😉
      
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      November 16, 2021 1:54pm
- Nickc2
  
  Spot Checks?
  They’ve lost the plot, won’t admit it and won’t back down. How effin arrogant!
  This essentially means they are prepared to countenance the spread of Covid albeit on a hit-and-miss basis.
  Such a decree could only emanate from an asylum controlled by the inmates.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:11am
- Prince
  
  Spot checks ! Guess what vehicles they check, in a desperate effort to avoid ‘racism’.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:48am
  - Truman lodge
    
    Prince
    
    I’ve got a brand new vehicle. However I’ve attached a united tribes flag to the window so that should probably get me through unchecked.
    
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    November 16, 2021 11:10am
    - Nickc2
      
      A Treaty (ToW) car eh? The gift they give themselves.
      
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      November 16, 2021 1:50pm
kowtow

After the “insurrectionist” like protest at parliament last week , the Media Pardy and its commentariat went ape shit talking about Trump flags and other “unwelcome American” influences .

What I saw was a preponderance of Maori Sovereignty and United Tribes flags , hakas , and other indigenous imagery .

Why do the Media Pardy not cover that ?
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November 16, 2021 8:21am
- Ruahine
  
  The Media Pardy has as its main function to give Ardern her podium jollies and to spread propaganda and to disguise the incompetence and the deceit of the Gov’t.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:32am
- Nickc2
  
  They haven’t been paid to cover that.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:15am
Maggy Wassilieff

It has taken less than 1 year for the majority of adult NZers to enter the Vaccine dependency roundabout.

Looks like we’ll all be hooked into a 6-9month cycle of booster fixes.
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November 16, 2021 8:27am
- Gravelroad
  
  And how quickly did state broadcaster TV1 have an “expert” at the ready with the soothing promotion of booster shots on Seven Sharp last night.
  Seven Blunt – just another outlet for the Labour Party propaganda machine.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:40am
- kowtow
  
  From “fully vaccinated” to booster shot required in just 6 months.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:48am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    And we will be like Israel where our ‘Green pass” will become invalid after 6 months and if we haven’t had a “booster” we will not be considered as being vaccinated.
    
    In October, Israeli authorities canceled the green passes of those eligible for the third shot but who hadn’t received it yet. Those who don’t have a green pass can get a 24-hour pass by taking an antigen or “fast” test to enter facilities.
    https://www.dw.com/en/israels-bet-on-early-covid-booster-shots-pays-off/a-59787257
    
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/03/world/israel-covid-booster.html
    
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    November 16, 2021 9:16am
  - Don Beckett
    
    kowtow:
    Not this Kiwi. 🙂
    
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    November 16, 2021 11:27am
Maggie Pie

And hard to believe Chloe features in the ‘Preferred PM’ poll.
Even ahead of Simon and Winston!

I mean she seems a nice enough sort of girl and all that, but not sure I’d want to meet her in a dark alley somewhere.

Just saying.
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November 16, 2021 8:28am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Why are you venturing into dark alleys?
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:33am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Story of my life Maggs.
    
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    November 16, 2021 8:38am
- pdm
  
  If you met her in a dark alley she would probably give you a toke.
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:41am
- Nickc2
  
  Ah, but she wants illegal drugtaking legalised. That’ll be a vote winner eh bro? Our mokopuna can come home from school legally stoned then bro, cheap as eh?
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:26am
  - Ehlana
    
    And they can go to school the same way.
    
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    November 16, 2021 12:37pm
- Frank the tank
  
  Hard left need a new savior now that Dear Leader has let in Kungflu
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:39am
- yossarian
  
  She has some very good friends in the media, enough to make Jacinda blush. They would have thrown her name in on purpose to get people on board with her being a potential Deputy Prime Minister in the future.
  
  The same media did this with Jacinda, they sewed the seed of having people start thinking of her being a leader even though in opposition she’d done nada.
  
  The cabal strikes again
  
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  November 16, 2021 11:14am
  - sooty
    
    Bye-bye, Marama. Watch out for the door!
    
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    November 16, 2021 12:19pm
  - lifesgood
    
    She has admitted she is ADHD. Would anyone really want an ADHD person as PM?
    
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    November 16, 2021 3:42pm
    - sooty
      
      Is there a difference between that and what we have?
      
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      November 16, 2021 4:45pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Yahoo serious?
      One word – “wordsoup”
      Jethro even has issues
      
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      November 16, 2021 5:03pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  Not sure you’re batting for the same team, Mags
  
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  November 16, 2021 6:54pm
plc

Just finished reading Niall Ferguson’s “Doom – The Politics of Catastrophe”.

Really recommend it. It provides a dispassionate view of the global response to Covid by probably the world’s leading historian.

Interestingly, his view is that the current pandemic is more akin to the 1957-58 Asian Flu and the response reflects more of a dysfunctional world than the response to that pandemic.

I finished reading the book thinking that the population is a lot less resilient these days – and easily spooked by big numbers. Certainly a generation that had experienced the Spanish Flu, two World Wars, the Deprssion and the ongoing threat of nuclear annihilation took the 1957-58 pandemic a lot more in their stride.

An excellent book. Great to have someone to provide context for what we are now experiencing….something between the 20-25th most deadly pandemic in history
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November 16, 2021 8:28am
- Tom Hunter
  
  Shit, we took the 68=69 Hong Kong flu in our stride. Between the Vietnam War, student protests, Woodstock and the Moon Landing the HK flu barely rates a mention despite being “… among the deadliest pandemics in history, and was caused by an H3N2 strain of the influenza A virus.
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:34am
  - Don Beckett
    
    I remember the “57 – ’58 Asian ‘flu pandemic very well. Personally knew 2 people who died from it. It never touched me though – I must be toxic to ‘flu bugs. 😆
    
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    November 16, 2021 11:31am
- Bluegrass
  
  There was no internet in those days; plus the media, unlike today, downplayed things to help maintain public morale.
  
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  November 16, 2021 2:07pm
Tomtoddy

It is now evident that Glasgow was a failure. Nothing of any substance achieved. Shaw was a total non-event.

Interesting to speculate why. You have to wonder how many leaders actually believe the claptrap they mouth off. Boris wouldnt have a bar of the extremism if weren’t for the pillow talk. After someone wakes Biden and checks, I will wager he
does not believe the nonsense. Its pretty clear Putin and Xi Jinping haven’t got their heart in it.

Furthermore the third world countries are very rightly ganging up to prevent themselves being sold out. They are going to use their coal and gas and gain all the upside of fossil fuel development come hell or high water.

Back at home most leaders know that all of us won’t part with a dime of our own to stop the planet warming – let someone else pay. Its a dying duck.
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November 16, 2021 8:29am
- Albert_Ross
  
  Right, so the politicians themselves show by their actions that they don’t actually believe in anthropogenic climate change and neither do they want to do anything about it.
  
  So who is it that’s coercing all those climate scientists to insist that it’s really happening and that action must be taken to prevent it? And why?
  
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  November 16, 2021 8:54am
  - Tomtoddy
    
    Dollars. Grants to universities, individuals, pressure groups. Brainless second and third generation kids running daddy’s or grandaddy’s multimillion dollar trustfund and want to part of the “in” crowd and stupid old farts like Soros dishing out dollars.
    
    Prestige. I may win a Nobel Prize if I keep writing extreme stuff.
    
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    November 16, 2021 10:24am
    - Albert_Ross
      
      Right.
      
      And these people are funding NIWA (for example), are they?
      
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      November 16, 2021 10:43am
      - Taieri
        
        And these people are funding NIWA (for example), are they?
        —————-
        
        Governments fund some very, very strange things and institutions. And not just governments. Look for example at the programmes funded by Te Aparangi, formerly known as Royal Society of New Zealand under its Marsden Fund.
        
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        November 16, 2021 11:27am
    - Taieri
      
      So who is it that’s coercing all those climate scientists
      —————
      
      Groupthink. Conformity. Political correctness. And a few other things.
      
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      November 16, 2021 11:21am
  - Bluegrass
    
    Old news – but still relevant:
    
    Senior IPCC official Ottmar Edenhofer ‘fessed up.
    
    ” The climate summit in Cancun at the end of the month is not a climate conference, but one of the largest economic conferences since the Second World War … one must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth by climate policy.
    
    Obviously, the owners of coal and oil will not be enthusiastic about this.
    
    One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole”.
    
    [translation from the Neue Zürcher Zeitung, 14 November 2010].
    
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    November 16, 2021 2:13pm
- Nickc2
  
  Boris is another fucking hypocrite with regard to fossil fuels. If fossil fuels are such a threat to the planet Boris, close down the North Sea Oil & Gas Fields!
  That’ll get you a lot of votes – NOT.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:34am
  - In Vino Veritas
    
    Not so fast Nick. Boris is doing what all leaders should do re “climate change”. Obfuscate for a start. Talk a big game, make promises way out into the future and then do not much of anything. Its a beautiful strategy that makes the greenists think something is being done and keeps them off the backs of various leaders as they go about doing important stuff.
    
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    November 16, 2021 1:07pm
    - Nickc2
      
      I’ll pay that one!
      
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      November 16, 2021 1:14pm
- cmm
  
  “It is now evident that Glasgow was a failure. Nothing of any substance achieved.”
  
  I’m sure it depends on how you’re looking at it. Quite likely the trip was a good deal for the people that attended.
  
  People got to meet with their fellow activists, discuss where the troughs are and where they should be put and who is going to access them.
  
  Maybe Shaw got a chance to talk to some people that might offer him a nice UN job or such.
  
  The delegates in South Africa got some rich countries to sign up over $US6bn of aid to build solar farms to transition away from coal. That’s a $6bn trough for the corrupt bastards in power in SA to plunder … and it won’t change anything because it won’t even take one coal station offline.
  
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  November 16, 2021 11:11am
I remember when

Interestring letter in the Northern Outlook – 10/11/21.
It raised a couple of interesting ideas which at least are worth thinking about.
The first,is the amount of water the willow trees, planted to control river bed erosion, remove from the river during summer months.
The second, was that foreshore erosion has been increased as a result of gravel starvation.
Does it explain some of the foreshore outcomes in Hawkes Bay in recent years.
Did the changes to the Tutaekuri river mouth contribute, has slowing run-off during heavy rainfall due to increased forestry, Manuka and riparian planting had an effect.
Are they using water that would otherwise be increasing river flow levels.
Just ideas.
Possible?
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November 16, 2021 8:34am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  It is not a well-studied field in NZ.
  
  Just a few papers on effect of forest planting or riparian buffers on stream volumes.
  
  Here’s a starter:
  https://www.envirolink.govt.nz/assets/1933-HBRC241-Accounting-for-water-use-by-willows-wetlands-and-native-riparian-plantings.pdf
  
  and it contains references to the other NZ studies.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:02am
- Ed Snack
  
  Also worth noting that quite a bit of the shoreline issues in Hawke’s Bay east of Napier have multiple causes. Shingle mining on the foreshore has reduced cover so contributed to erosion; in the 1931 earthquake when the one around the back of Napier was uplifted by 1-2 metres the land to the east from Clive across to Cape Kidnappers went downwards and the ongoing result of that is more erosion; plus the erosion has been ongoing for many thousands of years as a natural process. The rocks are very young and very soft and get carried away by the sea readily.
  
  Unless they build enduring Seawall protections, erosion will continue at a steady rate, though stopping any gravel mining would help reduce the rate, as would increasing the shingle outflow from the rivers.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:40am
  - Ruawai
    
    Erosion is what climate alarmists call sea level rising, where they show examples of areas getting buffeted by waves and say it is sea level rising when in many cases it is erosion of beaches which ebbs and flows over many years.
    
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    November 16, 2021 10:37am
Paulus Gnome

Cue the outrage from the MSM when sewage is found running down the wall of Whangarei hospital!

3 . . . 2 . . .1 . . .

Thought not. Shit is only important on hospital walls when National hold the treasury benches.
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November 16, 2021 8:39am
- cmm
  
  “Shit is only important on hospital walls when National hold the treasury benches.”
  
  Except it wasn’t shit then. It was just a water stain, but they kept repeating the lie.
  
  Now it really is shit and … oh look, wedding or the kid drew a picture or the current boyfriend caught a fish!
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:42am
- Nickc2
  
  Four years and still can’t find enough Ngapuhi to chair, form and have veto rights over a Sub-committee to set up a Committee to investigate the origins of shit, who’s responsible and which Pakehs should pay the bill for repairs and Koha.
  Come on Mahuta, get your A into G. You must have a Cuz who’s looking for a job.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:47am
- Tony Stuart
  
  It’s all down to four years of neglect!
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:39am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Rust from pipes.
  … [Deleted – and a warning that a repeat will earn a ban. mod.]
  
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  November 16, 2021 5:07pm
Rusty

Approx 300 Kiwis die of the common flu every year most being the elderly and vulnerable.

No mandate for Nzers to get the vaccine jab for that even though it kills more people and is contagious.

Any figures on how many end up in hospital or ICU due to the common flu — or maybe they are classified as covid cases now?
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November 16, 2021 8:52am
- cmm
  
  The biggest difference is the fraudulent way that “cases” are measured. Flu cases are only counted based on diagnosis from symptoms, while CV19 “cases” are determined by PCR tests.
  
  According to what Baker said in 2019, approx 10,000 deaths in NZ each year could be attributed to to flu. Assuming he’s right, then those are likely the numbers we’d have if flu deaths were counted the way they’re counting CV19 deaths (ie. any death when the virus is present or has been detected with a massively sensitive PCR test).
  
  But then if we counted prostate cancer that way then around 15,000 deaths a year would be attributed to prostate cancer.
  
  Using different thresholds for testing then treating the numbers the same is not science. It is fraud.
  
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  November 16, 2021 11:20am
- ClanMcleod
  
  I think you’ll find it’s closer to 600 flu deaths every year in NZ.
  
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  November 16, 2021 11:25am
Master Mariner

Curious about this article.

https://www.freightwaves.com/news/why-is-air-cargo-suddenly-more-affordable-compared-to-ocean-shipping

Though not mentioned, Its because of Government subsidies to keep them flying , Well pretty much. And especially for NZ. Approx 1.2 Billion has been spent to subsidise Air freight ( Guarantee plane to fly here).

A lot of shipping companies are now buying planes for Cargo.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/shipping-crisis-companies-charter-cargo-planes

Like I have said it is not a “supply chain issue” but a Worldwide “central Planning” issue in handling Covid that has seen extraordinary price increases in sea freight.

Still some storm clouds on the horizon.
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November 16, 2021 8:54am
- Taieri
  
  Apparently there’s a new coastal shipping service soon to be operational. Nelson-New Plymouth-W(h)anganui. Move Ocean. Wonder how long it will survive?
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:16am
- fightingtemeraire
  
  Ship a small amount by sea and the price is horrendous and a damn site cheaper to fly in.
  
  I used to import books from overseas and it was cheaper to fly half a tonne in by air than by sea.
  
  In places like Japan the internal costs to get to the Forwarder and then packed into a container are horrendous.
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:25am
Maggie Pie

Allegations of ‘bullying behaviour’ and ‘archaic sexism’ have been made against KiwiRail head Greg Miller, which has led to the announcement of a workplace review by an external investigator.

https://1news.co.nz/2021/11/15/allegations-of-bullying-and-sexism-by-kiwirail-leaders/

Should KiwiRail appoint its first ever… LGBQTICEO ?
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November 16, 2021 9:06am
- Nickc2
  
  Sooooo funny but yet very serious. It’s an impossible-to-win situation and the bastards know it.
  Who’s the next victim?
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:09am
- Taieri
  
  Should KiwiRail appoint its first ever… LGBQTICEO ?
  ————–
  
  Definitely. Undoubtedly, it will make the trains go faster…
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:14am
- BananaLlama
  
  If i make an allegation of incompetence will they be placed under external review?
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:22am
- fightingtemeraire
  
  QANTAS did
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:23am
  - sooty
    
    Wasn’t he on the rugby board and look how that turned out!
    
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    November 16, 2021 4:48pm
Ehlana

Staff at a public agency who refuse to get vaccinated could be put on paid special leave for up to a month, https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-no-jab-but-paid-special-leave-for-up-to-a-month-if-vaccine-refused.

I haven’t had any additional paid time off during this whole thing. And I hate to think what business owners have endured, with still no idea when they can open at all (for many) or return to normal (for the rest). So the idea of people being given a one-month paid holiday really isn’t appealing right now.

I’d actually like to see some detailed reporting about what’s been going on in the public sector while the rest of us (their paymasters) have been sweating.
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November 16, 2021 9:11am
ecco

Ardern trying to back track now on opening up on the Auckland border, via her propaganda messenger the Ferald. Now making noises that it won’t be till mid December. WTF?? The woman is a gutless wonder and 100% a control freak. Still shitscared about her maori voter base and basically being held to ransom by her maori caucus members. Catering for them the whole time, at the expense of the rest of NZ who have done everything she told them to do.

That will most certainly send a lot of Akl businesses under, not to mention tourist towns that rely on Auckland visitors over summer, as well as Air NZ who are bleeding losses.

No one is any position to plan anything over the next month. Hope she loses a shipload of votes from all of this patheticness and complete uselessness.

I’m so f*cking sick of her and Robertson putting on their faux sympathy that ‘they know it’s really hard on the Aucklanders and they are working on solutions’ blah, blah, blah, blah. All talk and no action is this regime. Talk is cheap for Ardern and co.

I’m expecting it to be an absolute clusterf*ck when she tries to implement the border checks, not to mention the vaccine passport. Like any IT I’m going to let some other happy souls register for this passport first and see what happens.
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November 16, 2021 9:28am
- Ehlana
  
  Registering is easy ecco. I did that in minutes when this thing was first announced.
  
  Based on this mob’s track record of delivery, they simply cannot deliver any form of passport, so the only feasible idea left is to ring-fence the areas where people are not vaccinated and let everyone else get on with life.
  
  Perhaps people could put quarantine flags on their property or in their windows to signify that they don’t want any visitors? Then we’d all know who to stay away from and those folks could leave their homes at their own risk.
  
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  November 16, 2021 12:43pm
- Rich Prick
  
  If they call it the KiwiPass it will be fucked from the outset.
  
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  November 16, 2021 12:58pm
dime

Alternate history fan-fiction (lol).

August 15th 2021

[deleted] takes to the podium of truth:

“kia hatu kata hukiua nui fa” (or whatever she says to show how PC she is).

As an island nation who relies on trade to survive, from cars to computers to the clothes we wear, it is impossible for us to lock down the country completely. Add to that the exporters who send our food overseas… (makes ship on the sea gesture).

We could not stop the ships coming and going and we could not stop the planes (makes flying gesture because apparently we are all fucking morons).

It is for this reason that New Zealand led the way in an aggressive vaccination plan.

We went hard and early and were one of the very first customers for the pzifer vaccine. the vaccine that has proven to be the best.

because of this, we have a 90% vaccination rate and there will be no lockdowns. we are prepared.

in addition to the vaccination rollout, we have increased ICU beds 10 fold.

We have converted some major buildings into function covid centres.

there is nothing to fear, we will get through the delta wave and i will be your Prime Minister for the next 9 years”.

___________________________

how fucking hard owuld that have been?

Thank god these socialists cant actually implement anything or we would be eating dogs by now.
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November 16, 2021 9:28am
surfing

We have failure of successive governments when it comes to housing and infrastructure.

Kiwibuild is an embarrassment, Jacinda should be gone for this alone. Instead she sits on her high throne and avoids accountability by pretending it never existed or is someone else’s fault.

Instead of fixing housing/infrastructure, the government starts new agencies to secure existing houses and motels and fills them with criminals and antisocial losers, destroying once good neighbourhoods. Like for this poor ex-cop and his downs syndrome son who cannot leave the house due to crims next door…

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/rotorua-emergency-housing-safety-crisis-retired-top-cop-speaks-out-over-fears-for-son/DOTZHQAMQCL352Y2L57FDEU5BI/

Instead of fixing infrastructure, govt is giving away billions unnecessarily. Why do we still have womens affairs? Why do we have to give so much to maori? Middle class welfare? Cancel it.
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November 16, 2021 9:30am
- Warren
  
  Here’s another couple that sold up and moved to the South Island to escape the abuse they had to put with after building there first home.
  https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/crime/man-fed-up-with-antisocial-kainga-ora-neighbours-sells-house-and-moves-to-south-island/
  This what you get from a Prime Minister that care more about gang members and Kainga Ora tennents than youg people that worked hard for their first home, its obvious that the Police, the Housing Minister and Kainga Ora are following the Prime Minister’s directive of being kind to the under privileged but at what cost to the taxpayer.
  
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  November 16, 2021 12:42pm
  - Gravyman2
    
    An example of being kind about stupid things leading inevitably to bad things….
    
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    November 16, 2021 2:56pm
Frank the tank

Did anyone notice the old duck that reads the news on ZB pronounced PI’s as “Parcyficar” this morning.

Blow me dead – I thought Magellan named the pacific……..
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November 16, 2021 9:33am
- Truman lodge
  
  Frank
  
  Correct it’s sort of translated to peaceful sea in Spanish and magellan did name it.
  
  That’s why pa-siff-aca is bogus.
  
  I maintain it’s communists trying to get upset and offended by changing pronunciations of words to get attention.
  Every white person that pushes Maori language is a communist bar none.
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:35am
Maggy Wassilieff

Our kind government in Action:

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/11/covid-19-parents-of-children-with-special-needs-at-breaking-point-after-months-without-school.html

Our Government seems to have lots of loot for special-interest groups, but not special-needs folk.
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November 16, 2021 9:36am
- Tom Hunter
  
  My wife has taught special needs kids for years now and has, as expected, been made redundant. But what has not been expected is the number of “meetings” her employers have had before they could get to her. In other words, she’s not alone.
  
  I wonder how long this fallout will take to be seen?
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:44am
Reid

Just in case you thought Australians are any happier than us…

https://twitter.com/TheJuggernaut88/status/1458313234155331585
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November 16, 2021 9:38am
Warren

A 21 year old male has been charged with murder of a 2 year old in Weymouth and female has also been charged with Manslaughter.
You have to ask yourself what sort of mongrels would do this to a two year old child and hope they get the punishment they deserve. But the one thing you can guarantee is that Jacinda Ardern’s and Labours light on crime policy and prison sentences means they will not get the punishment that the crime warrants.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/weymouth-toddlers-death-man-charged-with-murder/SYJTOCMRW2LEFMIUNQTJPUYVEM/
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November 16, 2021 9:40am
- In Vino Veritas
  
  Prison sentence Warren? More like he’ll be offered home detention, fried chicken and free rap music. There’ll be psychological councilling because he’s stuck at home and lonely, a cleaner doing his cleaning and a case manager who will forget he exists. Likely he will end up being able to retain his job and work, as long as he is home from 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. Of course this will be after having a judge waggle his finger at him in a nasty way and being thrashed with a wet bus ticket.
  
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  November 16, 2021 1:17pm
- David Garrett
  
  Warren: Assuming the alleged murderer is in fact guilty, this is yet another case where the current boyfriend wants to eradicate the evidence of the last incumbent in the missus’ bed. Animals do it too…but then they have an excuse. Humans are supposed to be “better”.
  
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  November 16, 2021 1:47pm
Maggie Pie

TRENDING

The suicide bomber who blew up while locked in a taxi, was a 32 year old Syrian asylum seeker, Emal Jamil Al-Swealmeen.

A motor-racing fan, he had changed his name to Enzo in honor of Enzo Ferrari, and to make himself sound ‘less Muslim’

Couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.
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November 16, 2021 9:45am
- Fuzzysnuggleduck
  
  reads like the conversion to Christianity was potentially to support his residency bid.
  i.e. “You can’t send me back now, I will be persecuted”.
  Decline…..Nek Minnit.
  “Ka-Boom!”.
  
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  November 16, 2021 1:57pm
Frank the tank

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/kendra-wilkinson-real-estate-show-single-mom

Imagine having a former playboy bunny as your agent. I bet she would do a roaring trade in Remuera.
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November 16, 2021 9:48am
- Maggie Pie
  
  We do have Leila MacDonald 😀
  
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  November 16, 2021 11:31am
- greybeard
  
  “Kendra sells Hollywood”.
  ( the sequel to “Kendra does Hollywood” )
  
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  November 16, 2021 12:19pm
Truman lodge

I wonder if the Govt might get desperate and throw out half the journalist’s during the services?

Got a bit tense for our leaders liking yesterday. Maybe Jessica and Tova only.. Oh and derick. Yes that will do as they ask the questions that kiwis demand answers to.
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November 16, 2021 9:51am
- kevn
  
  @Truman… Most interesting that the questions are almost inaudible, while ardens ‘answers’ come over loud enough. Sopers question seemed to get turned down.
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:41am
- Ruawai
  
  Like how you call them “Services” as that is exactly what they are, her religious services where she preaches her sermon from the pulpit.
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:42am
Lee C

Here is an interesting video: https://www.facebook.com/donna.valente/videos/308690700858725/
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November 16, 2021 10:03am
Tauhei Notts

It is with regret that I heard of the death of M.J.F. (John) Luxton earlier today. John had been unwell for quite some time.
Readers will remember him as a cabinet minister in the Bolger government.
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November 16, 2021 10:22am
- Tom Hunter
  
  Wasn’t he the author of the book, Honourable Men? I seem to recall (from a fast, selected read) that it contained quite a few details on the efforts of Nat Party guys like him in the late 70’s to convince Muldoon to start easing up on all sorts of controls – a small degree of deregulation and change that might have prevented the shock of Rogernomics, or at least toned it down a bit.
  
  His take was that they had just about convinced Muldoon when the Second Oil Crisis hit and Muldoon went back to what he knew best – more government control.
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:54am
Maggie Pie

Caller to talkback raises pertinent question…

“When will Kainga Ora realise that animals need to be kept in a zoo…..not put alongside law-abiding citizens in taxpayer funded housing?”
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November 16, 2021 10:23am
- surfing
  
  This is the issue of the day. Housing and infrastructure has been ignored for so long that spillover is now happening.
  
  RMA is unfit for purpose when it comes to housing intensification such that noise and behaviour problems cannot be dealt with.
  
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  November 16, 2021 10:44am
Fletch

Someone has done the numbers. The COVID-19 Hospitalization Risk in the U.S for the unvaccinated is around 0.89%. Slightly more than for the vaccinated but still below 1% for both.

Using these adjusted figures, we calculate that the hospitalization rate for the vaccinated population is 0.01% (or 1 in 10,914), and the rate for unvaccinated adults is 0.89% (or 1 case in 112 people). In both cases, therefore, the correct answer is less than one percent, but the implied efficacy rate of vaccination is 99% at preventing hospitalizations. This is calculated as the hospitalization rate for the unvaccinated minus the hospitalization rate for the vaccinated, divided by the unvaccinated rate. In other words, it is the percentage decrease in hospitalization risk. This high rate of protection — even against Delta — is consistent with a recent article published in the Lancet, which reviewed large-scale empirical data from the United States and around the world.

From the Appendices at end –

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/354938/adults-estimates-covid-hospitalization-risk.aspx
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November 16, 2021 10:41am
- ClanMcleod
  
  There is a lot of conflicting evidence around the world right now. This is a blog I have come across recently and the author seems very good at statistical analysis.
  
  “Something is wrong with the vaccines.”
  
  https://eugyppius.substack.com/p/germany-continues-to-post-record?
  
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  November 16, 2021 11:42am
- cmm
  
  Remember too that rates for a population are not individual rates.
  
  Let’s just roll with 1% as a hospitalisation number. That means that 1 person in a hundred will require hospitalisation.
  
  If you’re in the sickest 1 % of the population then there’s a good chance (maybe 50%) that it is going to be you. If, however, you’re in the other 99% then the risk is much closer to zero.
  
  The Covid calculator tells me I have a 1 in 670 chance of ending up in hospital in a three month period during a wave. It would be a far different matter if I was a mega-fatty with diabetes and emphysema.
  
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  November 16, 2021 4:42pm
  - Alan Wilkinson
    
    Exactly. It is statistical malpractice to ignore the vastly differing risk profiles.
    
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    November 16, 2021 5:29pm
dcrane

The Herald has an article on the Rittenhouse prosecution summary, which manages to leave out almost everything exculpatory.

I’m not getting my hopes up that they’ll be running an equally detailed piece after the defence presentation.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/prosecutor-kyle-rittenhouse-provoked-the-bloodshed-in-kenosha/YJOAPQQ4H2KRXO6BST35E4FLOI/
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November 16, 2021 10:51am
- In Vino Veritas
  
  dcrane, the prosecution claiming Rittenhouse bringing a gun made the defence of self-defence invalid is just about as stupid as it gets. Binger will never get a job anywhere else that’s for sure (well, other than CNN, MSNBC, ABC etc!).
  
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  November 16, 2021 1:30pm
  - dcrane
    
    The political establishment is obviously trying to railroad him.
    
    From the beginning, it has looked like a case of self-defense, and I can’t see convicting him of anything close to murder with the evidence we’ve seen. But I wouldn’t say Rittenhouse isn’t at all to blame. A person as young and presumably inexperienced as him shouldn’t have gotten involved in a way that put him at risk of becoming isolated among a crowd of hostiles. He needed at minimum to be part of a coordinating group that could watch each others’ backs and deter risky attempts to do things like grab a person’s gun. But there is probably no charge that encompasses that form of irresponsibility, and maybe there shouldn’t be one.
    
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    November 16, 2021 2:24pm
    - doggone7
      
      He needed at minimum … ? At minimum he should have stayed at home. If he really wanted to lash out he should have watched Sesame Street or Fox.
      
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      November 16, 2021 5:03pm
      - dcrane
        
        His father and others in his family live in Kenosha. Seems like home to me.
        
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        November 16, 2021 7:10pm
- ClanMcleod
  
  Jimmy Dore is live on Youtube now doing great coverage of the case. He eviscerates the Young Turks, yet again!
  
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  November 16, 2021 2:30pm
- In Vino Veritas
  
  FFS. Binger pointed an AR-15 at the Jury. With his finger on the trigger. He had been told it was not loaded, and the weapon appeared not to have a mag. But, as with Alec Baldwin, didn’t bother to check chamber, pointed weapon at people he didn’t intend to shoot. You really couldn’t script this shit. Binger is mentally retarded.
  
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  November 16, 2021 3:11pm
KevO'Brien

Kainga Ora has a peculiar pidginised name meaning something like Family Life or Living. Maori has few words and some of them are relentlessly overworked. It is basically a fossil. To foist this skeleton lingo on Pakeha is futile and insulting–it is effectively taking communications backwards. Latin is not much used these days. Why should Maori be when it is even less useful. Perhaps we should look at making Koine Greek compulsory so we could all converse in that popular language of its time.

Are they really really trying to say they encompass the human zoo too, placing all the wild things in the general mix?
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November 16, 2021 11:01am
- Bluegrass
  
  Latin is not used but is still extremely useful.
  
  Why?
  1. You can access the Roman philosophers etc without having to rely on a translator’s take.
  
  2. It is an invaluable tool, for an English-speaker in particular, in learning German and Romance/Latin languages – especially grammatically.
  
  Plus it is such a compressed language and a delight to use. Similar in a way to good English – ironically noted by Oscar Wilde when he said to a friend after a vacation – “I meant to send you a postcard but I didn’t have time”.
  
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  November 16, 2021 2:37pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    I never learnt Latin but I have encountered its elegance and presence in our lexicon. Excellent used as a fixed language for medicine like Italian is for music with world wide understanding.
    
    Maori has too few root words, complex grammar and an excessive number of pronouns. Teaching it to school children would be very confusing when they had to undo it to learn English.
    
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    November 16, 2021 4:15pm
- In Vino Veritas
  
  Kev, Latin is used more than you think, ego, bonus, de-facto, re, alibi, versus, vice versa, semi, extra, ad-hoc – the list goes on. And it’s the same with Maori, words like bro, cuz, da, choo, yous, sup among others. Its the youngsters that pick this stuff up.
  
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  November 16, 2021 3:24pm
Maggie Pie

Tell you who has gone very very quiet….’Meng the Merciless’

I mean, it’s not as though it’s all sweet out there 🙁
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November 16, 2021 11:03am
sooty

Man goes into a shoe shop and asks the shop assistant. “Can I have some Jacinda’s, please. You know Flip Fops!”
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November 16, 2021 11:17am
sooty

Apparently December 6th is the release date for Auckland! If you go to the ANZ booking site there is a whole lot of flights available then, know why would that be if people can’t fly?
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November 16, 2021 11:21am
- MCos
  
  We heard all this chatter the other day. Only then it was Dec 1 & it was AirNZ.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:45pm
marcw

Interesting to hear the answer to Q11. in Parliament today:

“NICOLA WILLIS to the Associate Minister of Housing (Public Housing): Does she expect Kāinga Ora to evict public housing tenants where their ongoing anti-social behaviour is threatening the wellbeing of others, or does she agree with the decision of Kāinga Ora to not evict a tenant living in public housing in Whāngarei, despite the tenant reportedly subjecting their elderly neighbours to a “prolonged campaign of intimidation and fear”?”

How can they possibly come up with a justification for this situation to occur? I await their obfuscationary reply. Or will this particular Assoc. Minister be in witless protection?
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November 16, 2021 11:51am
- Hard Cheese
  
  I expect the phrase “9 years of neglect” to feature somewhere
  
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  November 16, 2021 3:19pm
  - Nickc2
    
    9 years of whatever has nothing to do with the intimidation, threatening and inappropriate behaviour this pensioner couple in Whangarei were subjected to by these clients of Kaianga Roa.
    Did Kianga Roa take any action? Of course not, it’s just normal behaviour to them because the only criteria they had to evict clients was for ‘Extreme Conduct/Behaviour’ (which wasn’t categorised in documentation evidently).
    Yea, nice one you (insert own words).
    
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    November 16, 2021 4:32pm
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  Yes Nicola did a good job on her. Apparently nobody has been evicted from a Kaianga Ora house in the last four years. Unbelievable.
  
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  November 16, 2021 3:23pm
ClanMcleod

This is where we are with much of the official covid narrative studies:

“sometimes, the most valuable thing you can do for a body of research is help point out which studies within it are without merit and were designed for “waving around” rather that “actually proving things.”

This study from Norway gets taken apart in a logical manner.

https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/norwegian-covid-hospitalization-trajectory?
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November 16, 2021 11:54am
Truman lodge

I wonder if the media will attempt with the labour party to take jacinda’s personalty cult to the next level.

We have had media gushing over her birth and wedding plans. International media beside themselves with admiration. Ardern did do a small Dj set at R&V once. And don’t forget the kids book taking the lead. The president of Turkmenistan writes books and makes them compulsory learning at school.

I think Labour will attempt this at new years

https://youtu.be/PMJ7bCX71YM
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November 16, 2021 11:55am
- cmm
  
  Perhaps the MSM have figured out that gushing about Cindy’s wedding when other people have had to cancel theirs is probably not a winning strategy.
  
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  November 16, 2021 12:38pm
- krazykiwi
  
  The disgraced former head of the IPPC, a railway engineer by profession, was a book writer too. He moonlighted in bodice-ripping, junk-lust fiction. Until he got busted for helping his fiction become reality. Disgusting creep.
  
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  November 16, 2021 5:16pm
Aunty

Here’s one for the Jesus Junkies!

Jesus Freaking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyJuvaSjr7w
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November 16, 2021 12:21pm
CAKE FACE1

I have to repeatedly tell myself that correlation does not prove causation.

Foe example, every time I hear the Maori Government Department name I think – that government agency is a now complete disaster. It didn’t use to be so bad.

Of course, the Department (or quango et al) isn’t a disaster because of the renaming, but instead is a disaster for reasons independent of the name.

Nonetheless, after awhile, associations start to occur in your mind, despite yourself…

If I was Maori, I’d probably be annoyed at the useless Government Departments being a bad advertisement for my language…
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November 16, 2021 12:27pm
cmm

MPs worried about their safety… but care SFA about the safety of people their gang mates threaten.

Now I in no way condone death threats to politicians (if that is indeed happening), but when you trample over people, then it is reasonable to expect some backlash.

That you’re worried about your own safety and do care a crap for the safety of others – well expect MORE backlash.

And for the idiot club, I repeat, I am in no way condoning threats of violence to MPs or anyone else.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-delta-outbreak-labours-kieran-mcanulty-raises-concerns-about-mps-safety-as-anti-vaxx-anger-rises/JOL6FHZNXJUD47MBTB23MADH4A/
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November 16, 2021 12:37pm
- ClanMcleod
  
  There are no credible threats to these idiots. This is the same playbook used in America. Anyone opposing the liberal narrative is a “dangerous domestic terrorist.”
  When you can’t win the debate, smear the opposition. Old school tactics and so transparent.
  
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  November 16, 2021 12:41pm
  - cmm
    
    Yup. A few exasperated people waving placards outside the Beehive is not a credible threat to an MP’s safety.
    
    A scum criminal gangster making threats outside your front door is extremely credible.
    
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    November 16, 2021 1:41pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Hubby reckons it won’t be too long before the Army is called in to control the “terrorists”.
  
  A few weeks ago, I would have told him to stop hyperbolizing, but now I mutter, “Yes Dear, I agree.”
  
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  November 16, 2021 1:53pm
ClanMcleod

An excellent article explaining other negative aspects of the lunatic response to covid we have witnessed over 2 years, the death of trust in once respected institutions. A great read.
Ardern and her band of useless academics have destroyed so much in a relatively short space of time.

https://off-guardian.org/2021/11/13/the-death-of-science-and-the-rebirth-of-superstition/
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November 16, 2021 12:44pm
curry4me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDJwy8jNX4w

Boris to SCRAP Test & Trace.

Test and Trace will likely be gone by March. Maybe a lockdown in winter to ‘help the NHS’.
No need to self isolate if you get the Wuhan flu. [3:58]
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November 16, 2021 12:47pm
curry4me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IE64VtQ7WI

Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews strikes deal to amend pandemic bill.

The Victorian Government has struck a late-night deal to amend key points in its controversial pandemic management bill. The Andrews Government reached an agreement with three crossbenchers which includes a requirement that the premier be “satisfied on reasonable grounds” that it is necessary to declare a pandemic. Under the deal, the maximum financial penalty for not complying with a pandemic order with also be halved. It follows concerns the draft bill allowed the state government to make orders on specific groups of people based on their characteristics – such as religion, age, sexuality or political activity. [0:50. QCs etc in Oz obviously have some regard for democracy.]
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November 16, 2021 12:47pm
- dcrane
  
  Based on that summary it sounds like the opposition has capitulated for largely symbolic changes. The fines will still be highly coercive even at half the originally planned values, and it sounds like the premier is still given extreme powers. Thank goodness I’m not a Victorian.
  
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  November 16, 2021 1:32pm
Maggie Pie

Man calls 111…

OPERATOR: “What’s your emergency?”

MAN: “Police! There’s about 50 gang members brawling in the street and there’s sounds of gunfire!!”.

OPERATOR: “There may be a delay in attending.
Reports have been coming in of an unvaxxed Teacher at Auckland Grammar”
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November 16, 2021 12:48pm
- doggone7
  
  Is the point that the Operator doesn’t mind gang members shooting each other but if the sons of the gentry are at risk of getting the flu, all forces possible will be deployed?
  
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  November 16, 2021 3:29pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    WHOOOSH!!
    
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    November 16, 2021 4:35pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Oh boy – here is one.
    Could be satire, I think not
    
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    November 16, 2021 5:16pm
Bridgenag

Good one Maggie
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November 16, 2021 1:13pm
ClanMcleod

“Ultimately, the mRNA vaccines are an example for that sort of gene therapy. I always like to say, if we had surveyed, two years ago, the public, “would you be willing to take gene or cell therapy and inject it into your body?” we probably would have had a 95% refusal rate. I think this pandemic has opened many people’s eyes to innovation in a way that was maybe not possible before.”

The man who said this is called Stefan Oelrich. He said it publicly, in a speech to the World Health Summit. He is a member of the Board of Management and President of Pharmaceuticals at Bayer, one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies in the world. That’s right fact-checkers, Big Pharma just admitted that the Covid19 mRNA vaccines are gene therapy and that most people would not have agreed to be injected with them in normal circumstances.

We are just beginning to see how wise 95% of the public would have been.

https://roehamptonramblings.wordpress.com/2021/11/15/theres-something-happening-here-what-it-is-is-increasingly-clear/
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November 16, 2021 1:19pm
- Fletch
  
  Dr Robert Malone (who invented mRNA technology in the 1980s) also called it gene therapy in that long video interview the other day as well. And he should know.
  
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  November 16, 2021 2:09pm
septic skeptic

What is the logic of Waikato at level 2 and Auckland at level 3 and with a hard border? Today Waikato has 20 cases vs Auckland 197, but against that Auckland has 3.5 times the population and waikato has 1.5 times the proportion of people not fully vaxxed? The risk profiles must be pretty comparable.
Obviously this is a rhetorical question, there is no logic involved.
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November 16, 2021 1:28pm
- Julie
  
  I understand getting policing for the borders is an increasing problem and many refusing to take up border duties. This may be part of the reason.
  
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  November 16, 2021 2:41pm
Jack5

State radio continues its promotion of the Woke, of Maori, of Labour, of Ardern.

Today it was the turn of Woke and Maori: a move by two Auckland academics to change the taxonomic system of naming plants to substitute indigenous names where possible.

Lennard Gillman, professor of biogeography at AUT, was explaining on Nine to Noon a report in which he and Shane Wright, a lecturer in biological sciences at Auckland University, are suggesting changes to scientific naming conventions to allow substitution of indigenous terms.

Gillman gave as an example kauri’s name, agathis australis, agathis being the name for the genus of the tree found around the Pacific, and australis being the name of the New Zealand species (one of 14), commonly known as kauri. Gillman and Wright would have the NZ tree’s scientific name changed to agathis kauri.

At present, the accepted species name is its first published name in an academic journal. The pair want priority for indigenous names.

“We’ve had criticism, but we’ve had an awful lot of support,” Gillman told interviewer Kathryn Ryan.

“Our opinion is that names are important. They affirm a sense of place, of belonging, they affirm history, they’re also important for affirming indigenous peoples’ knowledge of species and their ecology, and there’s an awful lot of knowledge there. It is tapped by modern science … we are suggesting some of that should be recognised.”

Many names just recognised botanists from the past, Gillman added.

The pair’s suggestion is that suggestions for name changes come “from the indigenous people themselves”. These would go to a journal and be subjected to a peer review process, but the initiative would have to come from indigenous people. “They need to have ownership of it.”

He likened the move to change rules so that indigenous names could be the official names to changing names of geographic places.

“When I talk to young people today, they don’t know the old name for [Mount] Taranaki, for example,” Gillman said. “If you mention Mount Egmont, they go, ‘What?’. Now people just talk about Taranaki.”
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November 16, 2021 1:32pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  There is no particular reason why Latin terms need to retained in an international system of nomenclature.
  
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  November 16, 2021 2:51pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Abandoning it is a way to anarchy. Noisy academics are not always wise.
    
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    November 16, 2021 4:27pm
  - Captain Mainwaring
    
    There is no particular reason why anyone should pay attention to anything that Milky has to say.
    
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    November 16, 2021 8:51pm
- Taieri
  
  Gillman and Wright would have the NZ tree’s scientific name changed to agathis kauri.
  ——————–
  
  I fully support it. The “agathis” part should also be expressed in Te Reo. As should be all the names of plants and animals. Down with the post-colonial Greek and Latin!
  
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  November 16, 2021 3:06pm
  - Jack5
    
    The Scientific American reported on the Gillman-Wright name crusade a year ago.
    
    There are problems using indigenous names when species relate to various languages, noted Sandra Knopp, of London, president of the Linnean Society.
    
    Knopp was reported:
    
    ““It’s easier to think about doing this in New Zealand,” she says. “But it would be much harder in places like the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where there are hundreds of languages.” Agreement would be crucial in such situations, Gillman says. “Names would only change if there was a consensus of Indigenous people that covered the whole range of of the species.”
    
    Papua New Guinea, Australia, Canada, the United States, Brazil, Russia, are a few of the many countries which each have many indigenous languages. There may also be differences in tribal vocabularies in NZ, as well.
    
    Latin is useful as an international language in this case.
    
    ?Maybe Milky would have no objection to Volapük or Logopandecteision for Linnean classification?
    
    Why has NZ’s Red Radio dredged this Maorification topic up after a year? The idea not getting traction internationally? Or RNZ short of ideas?
    
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    November 16, 2021 4:14pm
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      Yes
      It is old hat…
      Perhaps some Uni Lecturers have nothing to do in these Covid times.
      
      Veale et al record at least 1288 instances of maori (te reo) being incorporated in scientific names .
      
      https://newzealandecology.org/nzje/3388.pdf
      
      Ross Galbreath provides further background, showing that it wasn’t because NZ taxonomists were reluctant to use te reo.
      https://newzealandecology.org/nzje/3429.pdf
      
      And if anyone can be bothered paying for the opinion of Government botanists, here’s their view:
      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0028825X.2020.1861031
      
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      November 16, 2021 4:54pm
      - Mike
        
        Careful Maggy, Jack5 will want all that te reo changed to Latin.
        Then he might want to restore the use of Law French for the courts.
        
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        November 16, 2021 5:54pm
All_on_Red

Big military buildup on the Ukrainian Border by Russia.
Who here thinks that Putin is afraid of any consequences from Biden?
He knows Germany will say nothing as he now supplies their energy.
If I were Vlad, now is the time to do it.
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November 16, 2021 1:37pm
- Nickc2
  
  Biden wouldn’t know if the Town Hall Clock was up him till it chimed!
  
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  November 16, 2021 1:41pm
- dcrane
  
  Source? If it’s a Five-Eyes/Atlantic Council propaganda outlet then probably not worth even reading.
  
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  November 16, 2021 2:31pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Why do you think the Russians should launch (another ) invasion of Ukraine?
  
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  November 16, 2021 2:44pm
  - dcrane
    
    The only reason I can imagine is if the US is involved in running another coup there.
    
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    November 16, 2021 7:12pm
Nickc2

Labour MPs want you to feel sorry for them.
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/things-have-escalated-labour-mps-on-high-alert-amid-death-threats-ongoing-attacks-by-anti-vaxxers/ar-AAQK5zo?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531
They certainly should have given similar concern to Home Owners who have Kainga Ora move in a Maori Gang/Cohorts next door and they say they can’t evict them for inappropriate behaviour and threats of death or worse.
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November 16, 2021 1:37pm
- Ehlana
  
  Perhaps we could move the gang members next door to the MPs?
  The old folks get their peaceful neighbourhood back, the gang get new digs and the MPs new neighbours should scare the anti-vaxxers away.
  
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  November 16, 2021 3:55pm
  - Nickc2
    
    Why not? I’m sure there’d be a lot of Labour MP’s putting their hands up for that. /sarc
    
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    November 16, 2021 4:14pm
Maggie Pie

BREAKING…

Danny Watson gets caller to Magic talkback show.

Keeps him online for 90 minutes talking shit 😀
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November 16, 2021 1:59pm
Fletch

Hosking just doesn’t get it. He can’t understand why someone would willingly give up their life-long career and employment over not wanting the jab.

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/opinion/mike-hosking-is-the-vaccine-worth-risking-your-career-for/

Has he really not done any research on it? Does he not understand the dangers? Does he not get that the 2000 nurses in NZ (there are probably more) who are quitting instead of getting the jab may know more about it than he does?
Do your research Hosking before you go criticizing people for their choices. Do your due diligence.
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November 16, 2021 2:05pm
- dcrane
  
  Yeah this was disappointing. It might have been the very next segment that raised the question of a person’s “fully vaccinated” status expiring after 6 months. So Mike is fine with coerced jabs every six months?
  
  He also fails to consider that the jab is just the latest BIG step in a series of unprecedented losses of freedom we have been “asked” to accept in a mere 2 years, and there is no sign at all it will be the last if we don’t say NO.
  
  Hosking must feel a lot of pressure on this. His rather nice job is presumably at stake if he dares to stray.
  
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  November 16, 2021 2:28pm
  - septic skeptic
    
    Maybe Hosk can do a bit of basic maths and figures that:
    IF 2000 nurses are quitting (and my anecdotal evidence is that this is likely an exaggeration), then 96.5% of nurses are getting the jab. Maybe the 56,000 know something that the anti-vaxxers and the 2000 don’t?
    
    Just to clarify – I am pro-vax but anti-mandates in general. But I do see some sense in having them for front line health workers.
    
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    November 16, 2021 3:27pm
    - dcrane
      
      Pretty circular to use the proportion getting vaccinated as evidence for agreement when these people are being threatened with loss of their careers. As Joe would say, C’mon man.
      
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      November 16, 2021 7:17pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Mike, I expect, is in a particularly high paid job so has more to lose. The Entertainment Class are really hard on their own who don’t toe their lines so long term consequences may follow.
    
    It’s much easier for me, an elderly pensioner, to refuse. The kids may miss me but I’m easy to feed. Any Official turning up to enforce these matters may find a High Court action pending and likely personal negative publicity. I’ve had a bit of practice that way.
    
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    November 16, 2021 4:38pm
- doggone7
  
  I’m waiting for someone to sue the Government for importing a vaccine which causes so much damage.
  
  Maybe Hosking will do his research around that when it happens.
  
  Where should he go to get the figure you have about 2000 nurses in NZ (probably more) who are quitting instead of getting the jab?
  
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  November 16, 2021 3:24pm
  - Fletch
    
    About 2000 district health board workers had not been vaccinated 15 hours before the deadline to lose their jobs.
    
    https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/11/15/unvaccinated-health-workers-heading-into-mandate-deadline/
    
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    November 16, 2021 7:28pm
- Allan
  
  I used to think that Hosking was a person who could hold a debate, see the pros and cons of both sides of an argument and accept the other person’s points of view and consequently was a regular listener to his breakfast show on Newstalk ZB. Unfortunately that was not the case and after listening to the constant vitreol and garbage from him about those who were unwilling to take part in this experimental jab program the radio was turned off and it is no longer a part of my life. Spotify is much better because the music is fantastic and there is no propaganda on it. My life is much better for doing this as I am no longer being constantly annoyed by his constant tirades and b/s.
  
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  November 16, 2021 3:29pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    And what people need to understand, is that without Katie…..
    Mike would be nothing!
    
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    November 16, 2021 5:47pm
Maggie Pie

My partner’s mum must be watching ‘Question Time’.
I think she’s concerned by Cindy’s appearance.
Txt to say either her head has shrunk, or her ears have got bigger.
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November 16, 2021 2:32pm
- greybeard
  
  Texted.
  Past tense of “text”.
  
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  November 16, 2021 7:00pm
- JerJer
  
  Maybe she is starting to get it that a good majority of people do not like her.
  
  I saw her today on the news, complaining that she is now scared that some of these people that appear to hate her, might be a threat to her.
  
  I might even feel sorry for her, but, then she doesn’t seem to give a stuff about people in their 80s being threatened in their own homes by the shitbag neigbours installed by Housing New Zealand.
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:47pm
ClanMcleod

Jimmy Dore is live on Youtube now doing great coverage of the case. He eviscerates the Young Turks, yet again!
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November 16, 2021 2:35pm
Leofric

My business partner, an almost entirely unpolitical animal, likes Red Radio, so when we’re both in the office I get to listen to it – so you don’t have to. Today we had Dr Nic Rawlence, director of the Otago Palaeogenetics Laboratory, talking about the discovery of moa bones on Stewart Island. Except that he never once referred to the place as such. It was Rakiura, Rakiura, Rakiura, as was Jesse, until I texted the show reminding him that the name of place is Stewart Island, and he suddenly switched to “Rakiura Stewart Island”. Coincidence?
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November 16, 2021 3:08pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Moari language week ended Feb 6th 1840, full stop
  
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  November 16, 2021 5:21pm
Maggie Pie

And thort this with sharing.

Andrew Bolt last night promoted doco on SKY…’China Rising’.

Screens over 2 nights…today & tomorrow @ 10pm.
All about the coming war with CHYNAA!!
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November 16, 2021 3:24pm
- MCos
  
  Why would he be promoting a war with China?
  
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  November 16, 2021 9:29pm
Truman lodge

Is see the police are having to segregate clubs at MIQ facility.

Mongrel Mob Club and Black Power Club have been scrapping it out at jetpark. But to confuse issues killer beez club and headhunters morocycle club are also there with tribesmen club.

Maybe the govt should put the clubs in their own facilities?
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November 16, 2021 3:38pm
- UrbanNeocolonialist
  
  You mean the prisons?
  
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  November 16, 2021 4:41pm
  - Nickc2
    
    Kelvin doesn’t want any new inmates this Christmas. They might burn the joint(s) down like last Christmas and that would disrupt his holidays.
    
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    November 16, 2021 4:59pm
jon

It would be interesting to know what Tatua’s Dairy board director Ross Townshend, said on social media, about Minister Mahuta, that led to his resignation from the board? Is anyone on here able to enlighten me on what Townshend posted?
11 2
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November 16, 2021 3:48pm
- BAM
  
  [deleted – inappropriate here thanks. mod.]
  
  0 1
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  November 16, 2021 5:40pm
- MCos
  
  I happened to see his post and I thought it was as vile as it gets particularly for a gentleman of his position.
  
  3 2
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  November 16, 2021 9:27pm
Maggie Pie

Yet we have to use paper straws…..

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1460077716556840961
6 1
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November 16, 2021 4:09pm
- Inandout
  
  Maggie, my favourite Maccas still uses plastic ones with the little ‘shovel’ at one end to get the ice cream from the bottom of the shake. KFC use the horrible dissolving paper ones. On the subject of plastic the ready to assemble outdoor furniture is awash with polystyrene, bubble wrap and plastic bags. Saves damage to the article obviously but shows the plastic bag ban is a Cindy brain fart.
  
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  November 16, 2021 4:42pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Yes, we bought some Ivory straws off Alibaba.
    Washable and should last a lifetime.
    Just needed to be careful how they labeled them for customs purposes.
    
    6 2
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    November 16, 2021 5:28pm
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      Just the thing for a snort (I gather)
      
      https://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/15qvjg/go_ahead_buy_our_ivory_carved_cocaine_straws_you/
      
      5 0
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      November 16, 2021 9:06pm
      - Maggie Pie
        
        LOL! Crack me up 😀
        
        1 0
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        November 17, 2021 7:39am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Let’s get some Countdown plastic lego thingys for the grandies
  
  6 1
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  November 16, 2021 5:24pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Somebody just paid 2 hundy for five bags of them on TMe
    
    4 1
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    November 16, 2021 5:31pm
Maggie Pie

LOL!!

My partner just txt… Colin Craig has to pay 4 hundy in ‘cock-tax’
9 2
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November 16, 2021 6:03pm
- fernglas
  
  It’s dick tax in Craig’s case. Complete and utter dick.
  
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  November 16, 2021 7:37pm
Maggy Wassilieff

TV One 6pm news has just run another hit job on Judith Collins as Nat Leader.

No wonder Labour is getting worried…
Contrast our nervy PM and Judith Collins in this exchange in Parliament today:
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/11/opposition-erupts-after-jacinda-ardern-defends-allowing-crowded-shopping-in-auckland-but-not-outdoor-dining.html

Check how often Jacinda Ardern rubs her hands, clicks her pen, or plays with her hair while trying to answer simple questions.
16 1
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November 16, 2021 6:17pm
- smttc
  
  And she looks like sh*t.
  
  And what about that sack of potatoes masquerading as a suit. It is about two sizes too big for her.
  
  She really needs some guidance around personal grooming.
  
  13 1
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  November 16, 2021 8:13pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    I guess it’s just unlucky for her that she doesn’t rely on the advice of Kiwiblog commenters on how she should dress, speak and act.
    
    0 2
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    November 16, 2021 9:00pm
  - sooty
    
    Bit late now, should have done it when little chucked it! How come the womans mags get her tidied up. Do they buy her clothes?
    
    1 0
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    November 16, 2021 9:59pm
Maggie Pie

What I can’t figure out, is why so many people on Twitter have blocked me.

;-(
6 2
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November 16, 2021 6:42pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Stop saying ‘Let’s go Brandon/Brenda’
  
  5 2
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  November 16, 2021 6:51pm
  - dcrane
    
    Or Let’s go Brandern
    
    6 0
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    November 16, 2021 7:18pm
Harriet

[deleted – try again without the unnecessary obscenities. mod.]
0 1
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November 16, 2021 7:27pm
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  God you mods are getting a bit like English rugby referees.
  I wish we knew how your victims were crossing the line.
  
  10 0
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  November 16, 2021 8:58pm
Harriet

On the proposed trans laws:

If it walks like a duck, sqwarks like a duck and gawks like a duck,

the chief beak is now a goose or a turkey.

This shit doesn’t pass the pub test or even basic logic, it’s going nowhere. 😎
6 0
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November 16, 2021 8:50pm

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