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September 28, 2021 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 28 September 2021

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General Debate

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krazykiwi

A couple of days ago Tomtoddy and I were discussing vaccine passports in relation to driver’s licences. Tomtoddy observed: –

I can see little difference between a driver’s license and a Covid license on the basis of first principles.

Superficially one might find some similarities. Both are authorisations. Both are issued by the state. Both purport to convey some type of risk assessment in respect of the holder.

But dig a little deeper, and these instruments are nothing alike. The driver’s licence is a very specific standing authority to use a vehicle on public roads. It doesn’t authorise me to re-wire my house, nor to fly an aircraft, nor to undertake surgery, nor to practice law.

Not only is it specific, but it is also benign. It has been more than a quarter of a century since plod last asked to see my licence. For most people, once issued at age 16 your driver’s licence is not subject to any competency re-testing until 59 years later. Over that entire time, you may choose to use it as a form of official identification as often, or as infrequently as you like.

Now, let’s imagine for a minute that your driver’s licence was used to convey vaccine status. For a start your licence would expire every 6-8 months and you would need to re-apply as vaccine protection would have attenuated. Re-issuance would require you to undergo a medical procedure, i.e. being injected with the most recently introduced therapeutic concoction which, by definition, would have no longitudinal safety data. Far from you choosing to show your licence as a form of ID, the state would demand you present this to any one of their hundreds of thousands unpaid enforcers before they could sell you a product or service. Mr Whippy’s job would have just got a bit harder, and you would be forced to divulge part of your medical history to a stranger. In return for an ice-cream.

Anyone who can’t see the creepy, incremental intrusion of the state into the minute of citizens’ lives is a fool, and anyone who can’t see that noose tightening over time is doubly so. I posit that if we allow this to take root here, it will metastasise further to subcutaneous identification technology, passed off as a privacy protection mechanism preventing Mr Whippy from seeing your medical data, and subsequently used to implement CCP-style a social credit system.

Of course, the nudge-loving authoritarians in our midst will rubbish any attempt at projecting multi-stage cause and effect, disparaging those of us who call an immediate and absolute halt to this progression with cries of “Conspiracy Theorist™ !!!”. I’ve stopped caring about these people. The history of increasing government control leaves their mockery ringing hollow.

I only hope enough New Zealanders wake up and see what’s happening outside our country and stop this before it starts. Once again, I call on National and ACT to categorically rule out any form of domestic vaccine passport and to embed this protection of civil liberties into a strengthened Bill of Rights Act.
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September 28, 2021 8:00am
- PhilBest
  
  The progressive establishment’s modus operandi now, to an extent like never before, is “gaslighting”.
  
  They will claim something is “just a right wing conspiracy theory” right up to the point they enact it as law and start throwing people in jail under it. Up to that point, they might even have been throwing people in jail for the wrongthink of suggesting they were up to what they WERE up to.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:04am
  - krazykiwi
    
    Yes, if two years ago I’d told anyone that 8 heavily armed Melbourne police officers would be clubbing a citizen for not wearing a facemask in a shopping mall this week I would have been dismissed as a crank.
    
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    September 28, 2021 10:36am
    - doggone7
      
      Strange times eh?
      If you’d heard that heavily armed police officers and soldiers would attack citizens so the country’s leader could walk down the road for a short photo waving a Bible around you’d have thought of Idi Amin.
      
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      September 28, 2021 11:30am
      - Ed Snack
        
        Who was that, Joe Biden again ? Because if you are referring to Trump, that has been comprehensively debunked…again.
        
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        September 28, 2021 12:41pm
    - Loddenthinks
      
      It was for his own safety kk, never lose sight of that 🙂
      
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      September 28, 2021 2:23pm
      - krazykiwi
        
        It was a woman!
        
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        September 28, 2021 2:32pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  I have a slightly different view as you probably know. I expect the government to provide me with a “Vaccine Passport” so I can travel internationally. That’s it. I then want the government to go away.
  
  However places like bars and restaurants are private property. I’m totally happy for the owners of these venues to choose to restrict entry to vaccinated people. That will only happen if the great majority of people think that is a good idea.
  
  You infer that you want the government to ban private property owners from such practices. I don’t support that. Just as I don’t support the myriad attempts from Labour and the Greens to regulate the behaviour of business owners.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:16am
  - Frank the tank
    
    Ben,
    
    The way our health and safety and workplace laws are set up mandated vaccination will likely come in unless there is legislation to counter the current framework.
    
    We worked out that effectively staff and/or customers could go to Worksafe and argue for a unsafe environment. Therefore is just isn’t worth the stress of having unvaccinated staff. We had 1 staff unvaccinated – who is now vaccinated.
    
    That’s life.
    
    Australia, Parts of North America and the whole of Europe will have vaccination mandates. Like you – my family and I wish to travel and get our lives back to where they were – if that means vaccination so be it.
    
    I just want to move on and get on with life as you only have a finite period where you can do things
    
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    September 28, 2021 8:26am
    - krazykiwi
      
      Therefore is just isn’t worth the stress of having unvaccinated staff
      
      Any thought given to the stress experienced by the individual faced with being forced to have a medical procedure under threat of losing their job?
      
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      September 28, 2021 10:39am
      - Okahu
        
        Sure. Fuck the freeloading social lepers.
        
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        September 28, 2021 11:40am
      - krazykiwi
        
        Did you have an eloquencectomy at the weekend, Okahu?
        
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        September 28, 2021 12:41pm
      - Okahu
        
        Letting out my inner Roy Kent. When confronted with specious bullshit, it works.
        
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        September 28, 2021 1:58pm
      - Okahu
        
        [krazykiwi has been granted auto-posting rights. It can be obtained by applying to the blog host. In your case, I don’t suggest it’s worth trying. Mod.]
        
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        September 28, 2021 2:59pm
      - krazykiwi
        
        Ha! That’s a +1 for the Ted Lasso reference.
        
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        September 28, 2021 8:23pm
    - Ehlana
      
      Frank, I don’t see how it meets the test to be a Health and Safety requirement. Yes, employers have to do everything practicable, but flu jabs are practicable and employers cannot require them.
      
      Getting vaccinated yourself should protect you from the worst consequences of Covid; employers will encourage vaccination to reduce illness and therefore absence (or unproductive presence). The company I work for already does this for the flu jab, by making it available free and onsite. But I don’t see how your co-workers being vaccinated or not makes the workplace so unsafe that you cannot be expected to attend.
      
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      September 28, 2021 11:52am
  - krazykiwi
    
    We already regulate, sensibly in my view, the baseis on which a private property owner can discriminate. The can’t decline service to someone because they are gay. Or rich. Or Catholic. Or a bit short.
    
    I contend that they should not be permitted to decline service to someone who fails to present some form of medical certificate.
    
    If you support them having this right, would you also support these private businesses demanding proof of flu vaccination status, HIV, conjunctivitis treatment?
    
    There are around 190 pathogens known to cause illness. Which of these should be regulated by the state so that private business owners can choose how to discriminate?
    
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    September 28, 2021 8:34am
    - PhilBest
      
      In some loony progressive jurisdictions it is not even legally required for people in nightclubs to declare to a partner in a casual s*xual liason, that they are HIV positive. But the same loony progressive jurisdictions are boots and all in favor of Covid vaccine passport mandates
      
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      September 28, 2021 8:42am
    - Northshoredoc
      
      You do realise that there are and have been for many years a number of notifiable diseases in NZ ?
      
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      September 28, 2021 8:44am
      - krazykiwi
        
        Yes. Found that out many years ago when I enjoyed 5 days with Campylobacter. Living life no more than 15 seconds from a toilet wasn’t fun.
        
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        September 28, 2021 9:07am
      - emmess
        
        Completely different, you can still be Covid negative and unvaccinated or Covid positive and vaccinated
        
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        September 28, 2021 9:18am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      I responded to you on this the other day. The protections in the Bill of Rights are all attributes that people can’t change, like being Maori. Or Chinese.
      
      Not being vaccinated is a choice people make, and let’s face it, people have made that choice knowing that it will restrict their freedom to do stuff in the next 5 to 10 years.
      
      There is simply no way we should be regulating the freedoms of private property owners to restrict entry to their properties.
      
      And BTW the business owners (especially places like hospitality venues) are driven by how the majority of the public will react to their decisions. The are not going to put a sign outside saying “No Maoris”. The yare not going to ban people without flu vaccines because people with the flu are too sick to get out of bed.
      
      Leave businesses alone to make their own decisions. If the public react badly to those decisions, the businesses will go broke. Welcome to markets.
      
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      September 28, 2021 8:46am
      - Chuck Bird
        
        ” The protections in the Bill of Rights are all attributes that people can’t change, like being Maori. Or Chinese.”
        
        Why can you not change these attributes if a man can identify as a woman?
        
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        September 28, 2021 8:51am
      - In Vino Veritas
        
        Benedict, I understand what you are saying, but I think your logic is slightly out. The Bill of Rights (Section 11) also gives people the right to refuse medical treatment. And following, the right not to be discriminated against under the Human Rights Act. Which further spells out discrimination in S21 (1)(h)(vii) the presence in the body of organisms capable of causing illness.
        So good luck with vaccine passports, and bars and events preventing access due to potential CoVid. Though I suppose this Government has trampled on the Bill of Rights Act anyway.
        
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        September 28, 2021 9:01am
      - Taieri
        
        The yare not going to ban people without flu vaccines because people with the flu are too sick to get out of bed.
        —————–
        
        Are you implying that people with Covid-19 are NOT too sick to get out of bed? If so, why discriminate against them at all?
        
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        September 28, 2021 9:28am
      - NoFax
        
        I think Benedict you forget one of the most important rights, if not the most, freedom of conscience. Domestic vaccine passports are very close to stepping on people’s consciences. I would prefer a government that doesn’t mandate right think.
        
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        September 28, 2021 9:36am
      - ByGolly
        
        ‘Not being vaccinated is a choice people make, and let’s face it, people have made that choice knowing that it will restrict their freedom to do stuff in the next 5 to 10 years’
        
        Some people yes. Not all.
        I’ve made the choice not to have Pfizer vaccine.
        Why the delay on non-Mrna such as Novavax?
        Import this immediately, and not just as a booster.
        Surely that would bring 4-5% on board immediately?
        Good enough for the Japanese.
        Contractual issues with Pfizer?
        
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        September 28, 2021 12:11pm
      - Sacha
        
        Yes, let businesses make their own decisions.
        Will they have scanners at the door?
        Or an employees to bar the entrance?
        They might find it rather expensive to refuse to have unvaccinated clients .
        I wonder how long it would take for them to relax their ‘safety’ standards?
        
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        September 28, 2021 1:19pm
      - miltonF
        
        Ahh that’s a bit disingenuous BY.
        
        You say vaccination is a choice so it is ok to discriminate.
        
        If someone chooses to belong to a certain religion, is it ok to bar adherents to that religion from your business?
        
        If someone chooses to vote for a certain political party, is it ok to bar those people from your business?
        
        Choices do not invalidate human rights. The only exception being if you choose not to respect other’s human rights you will be stripped of yours. This is the concept of imprisonment and it should be applied to any business which is not respecting the human rights of individuals.
        
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        September 28, 2021 2:03pm
      - riffer
        
        You make a good point. Out local Cossie club wouldn’t let me in with a hat on (they’re also an RSA).
        
        I was happy to take my hat off. But I could have bitched and moaned about my rights.
        
        The establishment has the choice to decide who they serve. Unless, as you say, if its because of something they can’t change.
        
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        September 28, 2021 7:22pm
      - riffer
        
        Also, consequences are not discrimination. You still have the right to decide whether to be vaccinated or not. Now if the government was saying “it is mandatory to be vaccinated, and you will incur a fine if you don’t,” then I would be up in arms. As would many others. You don’t have to be vaccinated. It’s a good idea, but you don’t have to. But it will have consequences.
        
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        September 28, 2021 7:27pm
    - thirteenstars
      
      You’re argument is pretty easy to demolish, KK, using the counter argument, which is since the state already prevents a business from allowing harmful practices, such as smoking, then they have the power to prevent unvaccinated persons similarly endangering others.
      
      Secondhand smoke = secondhand virus.
      
      Fact is, private organisations long ago lost any semblance of control of what they can and cannot do on their own property. There’s no principle to which they can repair that protects them from such regulations. The time to fight was decades ago when the most egregious restrictions were first considered.
      
      The maniacal Health & Safety regime is like the RMA as it grants almost plenary power to the state to regulate every such thing.
      
      And further, in the last 18 months we’ve had the most blatant violations of the Bill of Rights and nary an objection has been raised, and certainly not a legal one. If the state can override such things that are clearly protected in law then demanding proof of vaccination is hardly likely to be met with any objections.
      
      Kiwis can be counted on to comply, and to dob-in those that don’t.
      
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      September 28, 2021 9:46am
      - Don Beckett
        
        “……. prevent unvaccinated persons similarly endangering others.”
        
        And herein lies the stupidity of the premise that those unvaccinated are endangering others. Don’t you get the vaccine so that you are not endangered by the virus? So if that’s the case, how can the unvaccinated endanger you?
        What about people who are immune – those who have had the virus but are asymptomatic – or those who have had covid & are now immune? Why should they have to have a vaccine?
        This is all part of the psychotic hysteria that has been created by a virus which, in this country, has been of less impact than the common ‘flu. Sure, it could have been if measures had not been taken to prevent widespread infection, but even then it was a gross over-reaction – 27 people have died of it; in a normal year 500 people die of the common ‘flu.
        For heavens sake, folks, wake up – this is not the killer that has been constantly banged thru TV & over airwaves to out us into a state of fear – we are suffering from Stockholm syndrome.
        There is a much bigger agenda here – like all other treatments that worked – like Ivermectin/Stromectol were banned from the market so that Pfizer et al could get there Emergency Use Authorisation & freedom from prosecution. It’s all there, hidden in plain site for all to see.
        WAKE UP !!!
        
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        September 28, 2021 10:59am
      - Man Among the Ruins
        
        Don
        It’s all very easy to explain.
        “Guy SCHOOLS unvaxxxed ppl!”
        
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg_G86e62SM
        
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        September 28, 2021 1:27pm
    - Surely Knott
      
      1 If you were infectious. Sure they could decline permission entering your premises. But given the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission then what is it they are actually measuring.
      
      2. Denmark is back to normal and have dropped passports they say because of the vaccine. But this danish study on mortality says, “During the COVID-19 epidemic we found that the total number of deaths in Denmark in the first half of 2020 has not increased above the observed number of deaths in the same period during 2015–2019. ” So they took away our liberties and forced an experimental vaccine based on what information.
      
      3. NZ Cases. What’s going on with our case locations. We have 117 in miq, 12 in hospital, 22 at home, and 65 in other. What is other? Their are only 2% of the cases are over 70 so I don’t think it’s retirement homes. Is it prisons, gang headquarters, army barracks, hospice, disability care homes? This makes up a huge percentage of our cases and would tell us a lot about how transmission is taking place. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-020-00680-x?fbclid=IwAR0yy6MJQB_rQhEBCNXqdPZaqHekzTekHh_k421_KgVqHmptg-C3F2FdMTU
      
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      September 28, 2021 1:33pm
  - Nukuleka
    
    Hi Benedict. Your contributions are always thoughtfully written and well- reasoned. You also have an excellent command of English and express yourself in a far better way than the bulk of NZ- educated kiwis.
    
    Here comes the ‘but’, sorry. You missed out on one aspect of syntax that was drummed into many of us- the distinction between ‘imply’ and ‘infer’. You might like to check this out.
    
    Apologies for pointing this out so publicly.
    
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    September 28, 2021 8:42am
    - grumpy
      
      Such are the subtleties of the English language…..just as there is a very short distance between “pedant” and “wanker”.
      Meant in the most inoffensive way of course ….
      
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      September 28, 2021 11:40am
  - Cinematic
    
    Like you BY I expect some sort of vaccine passport to be required for international travel. Although it will quickly become complicated as different nations will have different rules and requirements. Such that I would expect the international vaccine passport to unravel within 12-18 months.
    
    On a domestic vaccine passport I expect it will never get off the ground. This shambles of a government can’t implement anything. Secondly you’re asking a bunch of average citizens to act as enforcement police, not going to happen, people don’t have the stomach for that kind of work.
    
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    September 28, 2021 8:49am
    - PhilBest
      
      I forget who said it but I like to quote it.
      
      “Always be thankful for bureaucratic ineptitude as an ameliorator of tyranny”.
      
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      September 28, 2021 9:18am
      - sooty
        
        The airline industry are bringinging in their own passport, so I expect the Ayeootearowa one to fall over.
        
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        September 28, 2021 3:33pm
  - dcrane
    
    Benedict: You say that you want the government to “go away” after issuing an international vaccine passport. The question is whether you can realistically expect them to do so. I don’t see how anyone who has been watching politics for the past few years could sustain that expectation, if such a system can be subsequently adopted domestically. The government will get involved and use its powers to pressure businesses, if it doesn’t simply take over. We’re aready being softened up on the idea in the papers by the likes of John Key.
    
    The best move would be to resist any system that can be applied domestically.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:07am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Can you trust a Liabore govt to stop with merely issuing a vaccine passport? Others have already documented plans for much more and Cinders is like a compliant rag doll.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:15am
  - tedbear
    
    There is zero need for a vaccine passport or zero need to worry one teeny bit about covid or the spread of it.
    Indeed many countries are over much concern or worry.
    I believe no hospitals are/were ever overrun and those that are, are in places that have that problem often.
    
    Imagine NZ with no restrictions whatsoever and 10,000 covid cases every year – 99.97% of those 10,000 will quickly get over any symptoms, and considering the 0.00003% death rate – that amounts to 30 deaths per year.
    Is that really worth going into hysterics over, closing airports and coffee bars, and mask wearing and crossing the road to avoid oncoming pedestrians?
    The idea that anyone needs to isolate is absurd.
    Especially people coming to NZ for a say a skiing holiday. You shove them in a hotel they have no say in and give them food they also have no say in, then after 14 days you let them go skiiing.
    The whole thing is draconian.
    Only people like Hipkins with an agenda could dream up such a procedure.
    
    Look..every 90 minutes a NZer dies from heart disease.
    Every year cancer takes the lives of around 10,000 NZers.
    Around 100 NZers will die of something or another every single day.
    
    400-500 people die from flu every year.
    Is there a 1pm muppet show on tv, an annual drive and in your face signs all over the place, govt adverts on tv and radio every five minutes, the govt flu agency sending out letters, texting and phoning everyone to take the flu vaccine?
    No.
    Covid is no threat to businesses including airlines or life in general.
    The (govt’s) idea that a vaccine passport is necessary to travel and get into restaurants and the like is absurd.
    It cannot and must not proceed.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:40am
  - MCos
    
    Can’t smoke in bars.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:47am
    - tedbear
      
      That’s a dumb rule as well. Perhaps we can all write to Collins and get her to announce National will wipe the anti smoking rules from the woke agenda.
      
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      September 28, 2021 11:09am
  - burt
    
    This vaccine passport, will it say….
    
    Benedict can catch and spread the virus just like a non vaccinated person but Benedict has complied with our request to take experimental medicine so Benedict can travel.
    
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    September 28, 2021 10:52am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      I don’t care what it says I am not intending on being stuck in New Zealand for the next five years. Hence I need a vaccine passport.
      
      Look I get it – you don’t want to get vaccinated and you don’t have a pressing need to travel. Just leave it at that. I’m not going to get into any more debates about vaccine safety.
      
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      September 28, 2021 12:02pm
      - Sacha
        
        BY: You said that last week, lol.
        
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        September 28, 2021 1:25pm
  - Loddenthinks
    
    “…That’s it. I then want the government to go away.”
    
    What you’re suggesting, apparently without a trace of irony is that you want the government to intrude in your life to such an extent that they force you to carry a document sharing part of your medical history, purely so you can enjoy freedoms that have always been available to you, but they can stop intruding into your life right there.
    
    Your naivety is almost child-like if you think this government will stop there – they’re just getting started.
    
    Having a privately-owned business does not give you the right to discriminate against a patron on many grounds, already enshrined in law, so that argument is a canard. By the way, that word “infer” – it does not mean what you think it means.
    
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    September 28, 2021 2:28pm
- pdm
  
  Yep I reckon covid vaccinated will pass to unvaccinated siblings just like drivers licences were toget the under age into pubs etc. with more dire consequences possibly.
  
  Have a look at my post at No Minister last evening.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:18am
- Scott
  
  That’s no good krazy. We need vaccine passports. We need every citizen to present their papers every day before they go any where. Papers please!
  
  We need masks in perpetuity. When a child is born they should be immediately issued with a mask.
  
  And we need to listen to Jacinda more. Every tv set and every device should be immediately reset at 1pm every day to the pulpit of truth. Stop everything and listen to Jacinda our saviour and her prophet, St Ashley of the pestilence.
  
  This is the new normal. Every citizen in every home should have a portrait of Jacinda prominently displayed on their living room wall. Like they do in North Korea.
  
  Long live The People’s socialist Republic of Aotearoa! Jacinda our dear leader, president for life! May she live forever!
  And the people cheered and wept as our dear leader was once again elected with 99% of the vote. Now that’s kindness ?
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:22am
- 7kiwi11
  
  With younger Maori and Pacifica people behind in the vaccine uptake I’m quite surprised the Maori Party haven’t come out decrying that a Vaccine Passport would be more colonial oppression. I can’t see a situation where events and places exclude high levels of the chosen people going ahead in this country because of this problem. Also, how long before said vaccine passport gets a Maori name to make it more tolerable?
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:27am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Maori tolerable? Just had an email from MBIE offering me:
    “Free digital skills training | Learn in te reo | Win a tech prize pack”
    
    Courses wholly in pidgin Maori for business. A liberal misuse of Pakeha words are interspersed.
    The Auditor General should look at this huge waste of taxpayers money.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:25am
    - RightFirstTime
      
      From my recent experience attempting to get the Auditor-General to investigate an issue which may reflect negatively on this government is just a waste of your time.
      
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      September 28, 2021 12:36pm
      - KevO'Brien
        
        It wasn’t previously.
        
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        September 28, 2021 3:27pm
      - Mark
        
        Proof,allegation ,example RFT,or just STFU.
        
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        September 28, 2021 4:21pm
    - Paulus
      
      Heard that there could be as many as 14,000 overstayers, most in South Auckland. and they will not get vaccinated as they have to have a Health number and an address.
      They feel that from that they can be identified so no way (and the churches support that I believe).
      
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      September 28, 2021 1:26pm
  - NoFax
    
    I think that is probably going to be our saving grace in NZ – since Maori have low vaccination rates we won’t get a domestic vaccine papers.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:38am
    - Man Among the Ruins
      
      “Racism” may be our saviour after all. Lol. The same is the case in the States: Blacks and Hispanics are mostly refusing, and the powers have painted themselves into a “racist” corner where they cannot do much about it.
      
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      September 28, 2021 11:29am
  - Man Among the Ruins
    
    The social credit IDs are the epitome of “colonial oppression.” However, the one benefit of Covid is that it has turned the entrenched racist patriarchy into an institution that cannot be questioned in under 2 years.
    
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    September 28, 2021 11:05am
- Nickc2
  
  Interesting. You present a reasonable argument against any kind of domestic Covid Passport but don’t address an International Covid Passport. Obviously, lil-olde-NZ can’t dictate what measures other countries mandate but in order to visit such countries, we from the Hermit Kingdom must have a Govt issued internationally recognised Covid Passport.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:27am
  - dcrane
    
    Then let’s set up a system that is least amenable to transfer to domestic contexts.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:09am
    - Nickc2
      
      Why the F not? It’s not as if everyone has to have one. We will, however, have to have such a Passport if visiting other countries where they have Covid Passports e.g. the UK and soon to be Aust?
      If we go for the no Covid Passport option, don’t we have a problem with tourists introducing the damned thing (Covid-19)? We can’t guarantee all tourists will be Covid free or even vaccinated.
      My club is looking at including Covid proof of vaccination into the software underlying our door Swipe Cards and the requirement for guests to provide proof of vaccination via a Govt provided paper certificate or a pink card issued at point of vaccination to be shown to the person on the door.
      https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-requesting-proof-vaccination-overseas-travel#letters
      
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      September 28, 2021 10:46am
      - dcrane
        
        On the 2nd point, unless we intend to keep the border MIQ system in place (which means a largely closed border) with continuing lockdowns when “needed”, then we will have covid circulating in the population normally. Why bother trying to stop it from coming in with some tourists? We don’t try to stop the flu from doing so every year. Once the vulnerable are vaccinated, it will be time to begin learning to live with it like our other diseases.
        
        That being said, we could somewhat reduce infected arrivals by continuing to require negative covid tests before departure. But again I don’t really see the point.
        
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        September 28, 2021 11:11am
      - Nickc2
        
        dcrane @ 11″11AM
        Regarding tourists being Covid free, we can’t and shouldn’t rely on any of them whatsoever being declared Covid free at point of departure. Look back at the number of Indians and Russian Fishermen who addegedly departed their respective countries being Covid free only to arrive here and be infected with the damned thing?
        
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        September 28, 2021 1:31pm
- Ehlana
  
  The counter-argument krazykiwi is that unvaccinated people are more likely to get more severely ill if they do catch Covid. If each of us truly was an island, we could say non-vaccination was your choice, if that makes you sicker one day, that is your problem.
  
  Except, that isn’t the way it works. We live in community with others and those others, I think, are due equal consideration to that you afford yourself.
  
  If you get sick enough to require hospital treatment, everyone else pays for it – not just the monetary cost of your treatment, but the opportunity cost of other health spending foregone. If you need long term support, everyone else will pay for that too.
  
  So it isn’t as simple as “my rights”, it is a question of the balance between “my rights” and the equal rights of every other person in our community.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:35am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Yet unvaccinated my have had Covid and not even known they did. They will have natural immunity but there is currently no antibody testing – why not??
    Would finding out that hundred/thousands interfere with Jaspinda’s fear program? She is toast without Covid and knows it
    
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    September 28, 2021 8:42am
    - PhilBest
      
      They need a T cell response test as well. Such a thing is available. Only around 1/3 of people who get Covid even develop antibodies, because the earlier layers of their immune system defeat the infection. So you could do antibodies tests and multiply by 3; or you could get T cell response tests done as well.
      
      Ironically, the PCR test itself actually can be picking up viral debris from a long past infection. Maybe some of our positive PCR cases are actually people who recovered from a Covid infection in 2020. Some of these people who suspect they were infected long ago and recovered, should try just getting a PCR test now and see what the result is.
      
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      September 28, 2021 8:46am
      - KevO'Brien
        
        If they are still using the PCR test at amplification of 2 to the 40th power they are violating a WHO ruling which is binding via the UN worldwide.
        That test may find anything, including the mutant dna it creates in processing.
        
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        September 28, 2021 9:31am
    - MCos
      
      Having previously been infected with covid-19 does not give one immunity.
      
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      September 28, 2021 9:56am
      - krazykiwi
        
        I am interested in you citing papers that confirm this assertion.
        
        Or, you could just read this: Longitudinal analysis shows durable and broad immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection with persisting antibody responses and memory B and T cells
        
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        September 28, 2021 10:23am
      - MCos
        
        I read a personal account by the Newshub London correspondent who had been afflicted twice.
        
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        September 28, 2021 10:30am
      - Matt Long
        
        Ahh, so we are using anecdotes to prove things now, I guess fatal reactions from the vaccine went up from 1 to 200 then?
        Or should we be using statistical analysis that shows previous infection provides better immunity than the Covid vaccine?
        I guess if a journalist said it, it must be true.
        
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        September 28, 2021 12:45pm
      - Ed Snack
        
        Oh yes, it is possible, just like there are people who can catch Measles twice. But rare, very rare. And far rarer than “been vaccinated, 2 or 3 times, and still caught Covid”.
        
        So “Natural Immunity” isn’t perfect, but it is far superior than vaccine mediated “immunity”, at least, that’s what the science is telling us.
        
        One thing I really don’t understand, the evidence that ‘natural” immunity is far better than that from the vaccine is essentially proven, so why do almost all authorities world wide insist on ignoring that and insist on a vaccine with serious side effects that are an order of magnitude or two greater than any other widely distributed vaccine ? Do they want to kill people, or are they simply incapable of rational reasoning, or what ?
        
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        September 28, 2021 12:48pm
      - grumpy
        
        Just like stupidity then?
        
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        September 28, 2021 12:55pm
      - Sacha
        
        to krazykiwi, below:
        That’s a bit mean, asking people to read that link , never mind understanding it if they aren’t lab researchers.
        Even the Discussion chapter at the end is hard going – and at then of it you find out that it’s just a progress report – come back next year, or the year after, and we’ll have some more info for you.
        
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        September 28, 2021 2:56pm
      - MCos
        
        Chap above says
        “They will have natural immunity”
        If he’d said they may have natural immunity there might very well be nothing to discuss otherwise even one case undermines his hypothesis.
        As it happens it’s quite possible to catch twice according to this and plenty of other articles.
        https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/news/coronavirus-and-your-health/covid-news
        
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        September 28, 2021 4:19pm
  - krazykiwi
    
    Ok, to be consistent then you’d support influenza being a notifiable disease, and having the state maintain a bio-passport of some sort in order for business owners to inspect this document before providing service?
    
    At it’s worst, and with global seroprevalence close to zero, Covid-19 is comparable to medium influenza pandemics of 1936, 1957 and 1968. Within a a couple of years it will be absolutely an absolutely routine part of the ILI season.
    
    There is no need for the state sanctioning medical intrusion into our lives. They’ve hardly made a good job of their efforts to-date, with unintended consequence that will be with us for two or more generations.
    
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    September 28, 2021 8:49am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      “Within a a couple of years it will be absolutely an absolutely routine part of the ILI season.”
      
      Then I guess venues will stop worrying about it.
      
      You want the state to force venues to let you in because you are not vaccinated. No. Not a role for the Government.
      
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      September 28, 2021 9:01am
      - dcrane
        
        And the domestic passport system will move beyond covid requirements, to the new “concerns of the day”. And the threshold for concerns requiring state attention will drop and drop. This is how such systems have always evolved over time – toward greater infringement of liberty to achieve more minor increments of “safety”.
        
        We need to put our foot down on this now.
        
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        September 28, 2021 9:11am
      - Okahu
        
        Of course you must ‘put your foot down on this now’. You must refuse any vaccine passport should it become available. You must refuse international travel. You must refuse many indoor entertainment venues. You must refuse many recreational and employment opportunities. You must refuse to be seen by your doctor or dentist.
        
        Because it is your right to refuse to be vaccinated or to be burdened with a vaccine passport if you are. It is your right to consider yourself special and too wise to fall for such an obvious manifestation of tyranny. It is your right to come to this outpost of doom porn thinking and predict the collapse of our economy and the rise of Marxist authoritarianism.
        
        What is going to be really, really hard is watching everybody else getting on with life, going places, getting jobs, getting fed, getting laid, getting service. It is your right to be a freeloader and a social leper but it ain’t gonna be fun. Or easy.
        
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        September 28, 2021 1:10pm
    - kowtow
      
      Your problem is you put forward a rational and reasonable arguments.
      
      The other side , well , they’re health fascists who’ve got only one thing on their minds ,Covid Control via vaccination .
      
      Same with the climate catastrophists , carbon myopia.
      
      There is no longer a place in our brave new world for rationality , reason , considered debate or indeed , informed democratic decision making.
      
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      September 28, 2021 11:09am
  - All_on_Red
    
    You could say the same about Obese people.
    They have poor health outcomes and we pay for it.
    Let’s start restricting them too eh.
    
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    September 28, 2021 8:49am
    - PhilBest
      
      How about the minefield of diseases that affect persons who make particular lifestyle choices?
      
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      September 28, 2021 8:56am
      - kowtow
        
        Yep . It’s a body with vaginas’ choice to off , at every ones else’s expense, the result of a drunken knee tremble in a pub carpark , indeed a right .
        
        Etc
        
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        September 28, 2021 11:12am
    - Don Beckett
      
      ..Forced liposuction 😉
      
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      September 28, 2021 11:16am
  - Cinematic
    
    Ehlana there’s an argument there.
    
    But it’s a slippery slope if an individual’s medical procedure is performed for the ‘good of the community’.
    
    Frontal lobe lobotomies for violent repeat offenders, castration for pedophilia, gastric bands for the obese, desexing for abusive parents…where does it stop?
    
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    September 28, 2021 8:56am
    - Ehlana
      
      Hence why I think it is something where we need to balance the rights of people who all have, individually, equal rights.
      I think a wider conversation might give us a more sensible outcome. The better way forward might be to do more work at the top of the cliff – improving general health – bolstered in the interim by more acute care. A domestic vaccine passport will have administrative costs, after all. Is that really the best use of that public money?
      
      But I don’t know how you have a sensible conversation without introducing the concept of responsibility – if we’re all going to pay for your care, do you have a responsibility to make an effort to stay as well as possible?
      
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      September 28, 2021 9:42am
      - Sacha
        
        @ ehlana: What would you regard as ‘an effort to stay as well as possible’ ?
        
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        September 28, 2021 3:01pm
  - DeepBlue
    
    I anticipate a far majority of the 10% ‘I might get it’, 5% ‘ I will get Novavax’, and 5% ‘I will never get it’, will be in the vax queue quick smart should Covid start overwhelming hospitals.
    
    So 2 more months of lockdown will be applied at that time.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:04am
  - cmm
    
    If you’re going to pull that one, then we have far bigger health issues to address – mainly smoking and obesity.
    
    By your principle KFC should be weighing people and checking their BMI before serving them. Smoking should be completely banned.
    
    Maybe we need a BMI passport. Let us know how you get on with that.
    
    If your desire to pressure people into vaccination was risk based, then that might make a bit more sense. ie. force people with a risk profile greater than X to be vaccinated.
    
    Most people have very low risk and reducing their risk by a further 50% is pointless (for the individual and for the population).
    
    What is far more important is reducing the risk of the highest risk people. That would move the needle significantly for both individual and population risk. If the highest risk individuals are vaccinated and that reduces their risk by 50% then that would be a win.
    
    What would be even more beneficial would be if those high risk people took some steps to dramatically reduce their risk (where possible). eg. If you’re BMI 45+, then getting to BMI 35 would probably reduce risk far more than getting the jab.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:20am
    - Taieri
      
      If you’re going to pull that one, then we have far bigger health issues to address – mainly smoking and obesity.
      ——————-
      
      And drinking, don’t forget drinking…
      
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      September 28, 2021 9:32am
      - cmm
        
        Yup, maybe “risk rationing”.
        
        How about getting risk ration books allowing people 20 “ration points” per month:
        * 1 per drink.
        * 2 per high risk sporting activity (mountain biking/skydiving/…).
        * 5 for eating KFC if your BMI is over 40.
        * 4 per pack of smokes.
        * 100 risk points if you drive drunk.
        * 50 risk points if you speed excessively.
        
        5 extra ration points per month if you keep your vaccinations current.
        5 extra ration points per month if you get an advanced drivers license.
        
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        September 28, 2021 10:15am
      - krazykiwi
        
        The CCP thanks you for your valuable contribution to their social credit product backlog 🙂
        
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        September 28, 2021 10:25am
      - Ed Snack
        
        cmm, and a special kind of national database and a digital link with a camera to record all that activity, with extreme penalties for attempting to switch off or blind the camera.
        
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        September 28, 2021 12:51pm
    - MCos
      
      With regard to smoking.
      It’s banned in all enclosed public spaces.
      Incidence of lung cancer has reduced by 40% since the 80s.
      
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      September 28, 2021 10:03am
      - cmm
        
        … but is still very high in the highest risk group.
        
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        September 28, 2021 10:24am
      - Taieri
        
        Incidence of lung cancer has reduced by 40% since the 80s.
        —————
        
        Not quite. According to the NZ MoH data, 968 lung and trachea cancer cases were registered for males in 1980. The corresponding figure for 2016 was 1162 cases.
        
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        September 28, 2021 10:52am
      - Ed Snack
        
        Taieri, but per head that is down, can’t be arsed doing the math, but it doesn’t look like as high as 40% down per head, but down a bit.
        
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        September 28, 2021 12:52pm
      - Matt Long
        
        Yes but the population has grown from 3-5 million in that time.
        
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        September 28, 2021 12:52pm
  - burt
    
    Ehlana
    
    We were told it would give us immunity, then when breakthrough cases started we were told they were very rare and that vaccinated carried a lower viral load. Then Dr Fauci reinstated mask usage for the vaccinated as they discovered the viral load was the same as for unvaccinated.
    
    But you still believe the vaccinated will get less sick even after every other benefit has been proven wrong?
    
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    September 28, 2021 10:58am
    - Ehlana
      
      That is, I believe, the benefit vaccination is supposed to give burt. It is of course possible for that benefit to exist even if other benefits do not.
      
      The question is how long that benefit exists, given that viruses mutate. Not being an expert, my guess is this will end up like flu – each year’s flu shot is based on the particular variants considered most likely to cause the worst illness that year. It remains to be seen.
      
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      September 28, 2021 12:00pm
  - Liberal Cliche
    
    Jesus Christ a literal covid religious post, i was half joking the other day when i said the fanatics would come seeking the unpure to be baptized into their religion, and here it is.
    
    30 years of taxes mate i’ve paid for 9 lifetimes of 24/7 hospital care, not even including gst.
    
    I could of built my own fucking hospital.
    
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    September 28, 2021 11:06am
  - Man Among the Ruins
    
    Isn’t the argument of the day that high vaccination rates will create herd immunity, though? In which case, there will be insufficient numbers of unvaccinated to sustain the virus in the community, meaning it will burn out.
    
    The reality is, given it’s a virus where many infected don’t even know they have it, only the most vulnerable would even need hospital treatment – if even them – and all of them will have likely taken the vaccine in their own interests. So what’s the problem?
    
    Moreover, if the case is “you’re contributing to your own potential medical issues” by not taking the vaccine, then we logically need to also ban fried food, smoking, soft drinks and confectionary. This is not a trivial comparison: it expresses precisely the same principle.
    
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    September 28, 2021 11:13am
  - In Vino Veritas
    
    Ehlana, you are absolutely right, someone will need to pay. What you would see are the holes in socialising everything. As always, the Government says “the vaccine is free!!”. Except it is not. Someone always has to pay.
    If you refuse to be vaccinated, then you should have to pay if you get crook enough with CoVid that you end up in hospital. Or not. In which case you take your chances.
    
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    September 28, 2021 12:47pm
    - Sacha
      
      I hope you are saying that tongue-in-cheek! We all pay for healthcare – the contract is that it is available for all. Society has agreed that all acutely ill are treated with priority.
      So, someone has a heart attack: they are admitted to hospital, to Cardiac ICU, stabilised and then into a ward for observation and recuperation, and home. No charge.
      Someone falls off their motorbike, breaks an arm and a leg, gets admitted to hospital and Orthopedic Ward via X-ray and theatre, recovers, goes to rehab, then home. No charge.
      Someone has difficulty breathing and has a bit of a fever. They are asthmatic and a former smoker: they go to a medical ward, are given supportive O2, physio therapy and antibiotics. A swab gives a positive Covid19 result. They are isolated, & treated appropriately, and discharged home in 5 days.
      No charge.
      Now what IVV? Shall we send a bill to all three, or honour our contract?
      
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      September 28, 2021 3:24pm
      - In Vino Veritas
        
        Sacha, the point is, socialising the cost of things, in this instance healthcare, always provides anomalies. Ehlana rightly points out that the cost of caring for unvaccinated people (who are more at risk of being hospitalised by the virus) will be borne by those who have vaccinated. And of course, by others doubly so who may need the facility but be unable to get in, and through the opportunity cost of other forgone health spending. So, we are talking about people (and this could apply to smoking, being obese etc as well) who make choices which other people have to pay for. You make the claim that “We all pay for healthcare”, which is palpably not true. Only those taxpayers that are net taxpayers pay for Healthcare. Anyone that receives more from the Government in transfers, than they actually earn, pays no net tax. Ergo, beneficiaries pay nothing for healthcare, as their income is from transfers from the Government. I believe you will find that anyone earning under $60k or so with kids, get’s more transfers from the Government than they pay in tax. So they are not paying for healthcare. When you say “honour our contract”, what contract are you referring to? Should whatever “contract” you are honouring be only for those that actually pay? After all, contract = offer, acceptance and consideration. No consideration, no contract. Do you not think that people should take responsibility for their actions?
        
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        September 28, 2021 3:56pm
  - R
    
    The counter-argument krazykiwi is that unvaccinated people are more likely to get more severely ill if they do catch Covid
    
    You don’t seem to have thought through the logic.
    
    First, some vaccinated people are reporting serious side-effects from the vaccine. More than 600 reports according to the MOH. Those side effects include spontaneous abortion, facial paralysis, stroke, etc. Importantly, there are fewer reports of hospitalisation from Covid.
    
    NZ’s population is about 5.1 million, while there has been just over 4000 cases of Covid and 27 deaths (yes, let’s be charitable and say they were all the result of Covid). That means that 99.992% of the population hasn’t caught the virus. Of those that have caught it, 99.4% have recovered. Would you care to explain to me why you feel the need to get vaccinated?
    
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    September 28, 2021 3:17pm
  - blue collar
    
    And draw the line where ? Fat people . Smokers . Boozers . People that don’t bother to hv skin checks , bowel cancer checks , cholesterol checks , …. a recent ECG …. ? All take up hospital time ….
    we pay taxes , deal with it . Develop more nurses and hospital beds , give them a pay rise , instead of a pay freeze … hospitals were chocka before covid .
    Who cares if someone is unvaccinated? Big deal . Boo hoo …. how do the fearful n timid ever drive on a road with a one Ton piece of metal coming at them the other way at 100km hour, and only a bit of paint separating them ?
    Get some perspective….
    oooooohhhh … it’s a human not pumped full of vaccine ….. quick , FREAK OUT !!
    It’s a wonder we are born so natural . SO DANGEROUS ! Pffffft
    
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    September 28, 2021 6:10pm
- Ra Henare
  
  Just a small correction, krazykiwi.
  At 75 you get a medical test. Not a competency test(unless the medical says you should have one).
  I know of a 90 year old who keeps passing medicals and hasnt had a competency test.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:58am
  - krazykiwi
    
    Thanks. My mum had a competency test at 75 and I thought it was routine. If you saw her parallel parking you’d understand 🙂
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:10am
    - MCos
      
      Mum gave Dad a competency test at that age and said hand over the keys.
      I have epilepsy, but haven’t had any seizures for ten years or more. Nevertheless it’s a good excuse to get out of driving when I don’t feel like it.
      
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      September 28, 2021 10:11am
      - Ed Snack
        
        Quite some time ago my Grandfather got a polite visit from a constable, and he was offered a deal – voluntarily surrender his licence then and there, or go up on one or two dangerous driving charges. He took the obvious option.
        
        He’d reached the stage where he would get to an intersection, look right, look left, then drive out regardless of whether anything was coming or not, in either direction. Genuinely scary to be a passenger.
        
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        September 28, 2021 12:57pm
  - Paulus
    
    I have a lady friend who has her driving license renewed recently and she is 100 years old and still drives very occasionally.
    And she is good on a computer too !
    
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    September 28, 2021 1:31pm
- Tomtoddy
  
  Hi kk. I like your thinking and conclusions about the downstream effects of vaccine passports and concur mostly.
  
  However the debate I raised was one of “first principles”. Socialists find a problem – real or imagined and their solution is always to legislate/license. No cost/benefit, no debate over loss of freedoms, no discussion on personal responsibility – the elite want control and rules and regulations give it to them.
  
  The humble driver’s license is not as innocent as you posit. Check out the Real ID Act in the USA. For many years the courts in the America upheld individual rights by preventing states from introducing licenses. But socialism, like rust, does not sleep and using accidents as their weapon eventually legislation was passed.
  
  Happy to support you on a vaccine passport but not your argument that a driver’s license is a lesser evil.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:15am
  - krazykiwi
    
    All good. Sorry I wasn’t able to continue the conversation last week.
    
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    September 28, 2021 10:00am
  - Matt Long
    
    Yes despots use “safety” to justify all kinds of control, wars and other kinds of evil.
    Check out what Slobodan Milošević did for the sake of Serbian safety.
    
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    September 28, 2021 12:58pm
- tavita
  
  What does the vaccine do? Why does the government need 90%? If it protects those vaccinated from the worst effects of the virus, then its up to the individual whether they want to get vaccinated. If it prevents transmission, why do vaccinated people need face masks? Why are we putting vaccinated arrivals to NZ into MIQ?
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:54am
  - Man Among the Ruins
    
    Exactly. It is very easy to complicate things and present reams of data for this or that position. But ultimately, the need for mass Covid vaccination falls over at the level of basic logic:
    
    Experience now indicates, and booster-talk confirms, that the vaccines don’t do much if anything.
    
    Even if this was false, if someone is vaccinated, they therefore have protection from unvaccinated people.
    
    Face masks are required even for vaccinated people. Why? Why have MIQ for the vaccinated?
    
    If, say, 90% are vaccinated, then why have a passport system? The very success of the uptake precludes the need for the idea.
    
    So, what are we doing here? Vaccination status is about ongoing compliance and control, and nothing else.
    
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    September 28, 2021 11:24am
    - Ed Snack
      
      Face masks are required for purely political reasons, they don’t work at all with aerosolised viruses. It’s all theatre, and descending rapidly in the theatre the absurd, with strong overtones of Kafka.
      
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      September 28, 2021 12:58pm
PhilBest

These Dutch authors have made an interesting attempt at a laymans-terms but lengthy (of necessity) explanation of how SARS CoV-2 aerosol infection works, what are the factors:

https://www.maurice.nl/2021/09/26/covid-19-de-moeizame-weg-van-mens-tot-mens/

Google Translate works well for me.

I particularly like this para:

“…outside has no effect whatsoever, the dilution of the exhaled air goes so fast that it is impossible that enough virus remains around a susceptible person to infect that person. It is statistically impossible for it to happen…”

There is a summarized version linked at the end.
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September 28, 2021 8:00am
rouppe

I read a story on Stuff about the difficulty student Teresa Davenport faces paying her rent in Wellington. Usual kind of thing from that publication.

In it she laments that there should be a universal student allowance. That thing we had in the 80’s that was scrapped because it was rather modest and you needed other income to get through which excluded goods minds without means.

It struck me that Teresa looks a lot like Chloe Swarbrick. So I did a web search. Goodness me, Teresa is busy. Treasurer for Greens at Vic. VUWSA sustainability officer. On Twitter saying her rent is going up by 50% while not mentioning that’s because her partner is moving out. Wonder why that is.

Oh, guess what the Green Tertiary policy is? Universal student allowance at “fair and liveable levels”.

None of that mentioned in the article of course… Political advertising under the guide of journalism.
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September 28, 2021 8:00am
- In Vino Veritas
  
  Good spotting route. Stuff is full of this shit and wonder why people are binning them in droves. Though they never say die. I get calls and emails from them every two months, trying to get me to resubscribe. Every time, they say they will take me off their marketing list. Yeah, right.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:04am
  - curry4me
    
    In Vino Veritas: I just assume they’re lying; either by omission, or by interviewing their word processors. Some of the people mentioned are likely to have ‘Green’, or Labour connections.
    
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    September 28, 2021 10:01am
- PhilBest
  
  The economic illiteracy is considerable. These idiots support the Green “anti sprawl” policies that make housing and rents so unaffordable. Under those inherent market distortions, everything you do on the side of demand subsidies, just pushes the prices and rents up some more. So it is just a black hole for taxpayers money and no-one is any further ahead except landlords.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:22am
- Nigel Kearney
  
  There are too many people at University. Tuition and living costs should be attached to scholarships that only the top students can get.
  
  Those of average ability who want a degree in Communications or something similar can pay for it themselves, by working in a fish and chip shop, for example.
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:12am
  - artemisia
    
    There is a wide range of apprenticeships available these days, all with no fees until at least the end of 2022, and that come with an actual wage. Some don’t even need a hammer.
    
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    September 28, 2021 11:48am
- rouppe
  
  After emailing the DomPost, they have now made reference to her Green Party links, and the Green Party policy she is promoting
  
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  September 28, 2021 1:10pm
Warren

Ryan Bridge give the most true and honest reasons of why nothing will change and no plan will arrive on how to get New Zealand up and working for New Zealander’s as the polls are driven by our Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern.
Like most Politicains Jacinda Ardern is driven by polls and until they change nothing the Government will do will change because there is no plan or will to change.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/09/ryan-bridge-when-the-polls-say-we-re-sick-of-it-lockdowns-will-end-and-the-govt-won-t-care-if-we-re-5pct-off-some-mythical-vaccine-target.html
Jacinda Ardern is all bullshit with no Substance.
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September 28, 2021 8:00am
- kowtow
  
  ‘Jacinda Ardern is all bullshit with no Substance.’
  
  Yes but for as long as the swing voter shows she’s so amazeballs Jax gets to do what she wants.
  
  Donccha just love the low intelligence voter.
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:18am
CaptainCompromise

I see the “Maori kids were canes by the colonialists for speaking Maori” myth is being forced into the media again. Can someone remind me of the truth of this story?
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September 28, 2021 8:02am
- RockyJ
  
  Gosh, how terrible. When I was at school I was caned for speaking English. And for having my socks down, and for having hair over my ears. Harden up!
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:23am
- KevO'Brien
  
  It came about in the 1930’s when the leading Maori Elders decided their language would not let them develop. It couldn’t handle the future.
  
  I’ve met that debate in Samoa too and they, only having a few hundred Palagi, have freely developed their language. However they needed to bring in English for the mid 20th C. so English has been taught as well. They are getting the best of both worlds.
  
  Maori got stuck in the 1840’s perhaps because of the very rapid settlement by Pakeha. Those who intermarried earlier often learn’t the basics but the settlers already had a much richer background and could not revert. That has continued.
  The expectation that Pakeha will now adopt Maori as a primary language is cause to question the mental health of the proponents.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:52am
  - MCos
    
    Nobody is expecting Te Reo will become the primary language.
    
    3 13
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    September 28, 2021 10:20am
    - kowtow
      
      The purpose is not language .
      
      It’s political .
      
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      September 28, 2021 12:43pm
      - Nickc2
        
        It’s also something to beat other people over the head with. If you don’t throw a few Te Reo words into the conversation, you’re not woke.
        
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        September 28, 2021 2:29pm
    - Paulus
      
      Except Maori and RNZ and TVNZ.
      
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      September 28, 2021 1:34pm
- curry4me
  
  CaptainCompromise: Quite a lot of Maori parents, and MPs demended it, as they realized English was the key to success in life. Now, it’s just a rod for the usual suspects to use on Whitey’s back.
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:03am
- Ehlana
  
  I suspect they were actually caned for breaking school rules, which happened to include a prohibition on Maori language at school.
  
  It probably seemed like the right thing to do to people back then, on the assumption that it would force them to learn English and that would set them up for later success. I doubt anyone could foresee that Maori would cease to be used outside of school too.
  
  Rather than demanding an apology from Prince William (could they find someone less connected?), it might be better to learn the lesson that “even the very wise cannot see all ends” and consider what they are doing today which may look equally foolish in the future.
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:33am
  - Don Beckett
    
    I grew up & went to primary school in the 1940’s & ’50’s. I have heard for a few decades that Maori kids were given the strap for speaking maori. As far as I saw, that is bullshit. I grew up in Te Puke, which has quite a high Maori population.
    The Maori kids were allowed to speak Maori, but it was frowned on in class – simply because it was bad manners to speak a language that many did not understand, and the kids knew & respected that.
    
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    September 28, 2021 2:05pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Why don’t they just exhume Sir Apirana Ngata and have him apologise?I believe he started this rejection of Te Reo for his people.
    
    Don’t those known as woke do commonsense?
    
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    September 28, 2021 3:54pm
- rouppe
  
  My siblings were caned for speaking dutch.
  
  It happened to everyone, not just Maori
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:55am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  No-one strapped Māori kids for speaking Māori when I was at Castlecliff School in the 1950s.
  
  Few kids could speak it, but there were words, phrases bandied about in the playground and we had Weekly school marching practice on the Front quad to the tune of Maori Battalion.
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:38am
- Nickc2
  
  IMO, Dova Samuels looking for relevance again plus a public payout of other people’s money. He’s sick of pissing in Hotel Corridors and now he’s using stories to try and reclaim some notoriety.
  I did some of my early schooling in Hikurangi around the same time as Don Beckett above and there were quite a few Maori’s in my class and I can’t recall any of them getting beaten for speaking Maori.
  I do however remember many of them being reminded when to blow their nose and the teacher having special handkerchiefs put aside for that purpose.
  
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  September 28, 2021 2:46pm
Benedict Yu

So on the weekend John Key says some totally sensible stuff about the Government’s COVID “plan” and what he would do if he was in charge.

Next minute Hipkins says Key was being insulting. Then Jacinda says she refutes that or words to that effect.

Then the media piles in too.

Good reminder that any New Zealander who relies on New Zealand media to inform them is… well uninformed.

There are many countries that use threats to manipulate the media. Here it seems to be dependence on government money. Plus few journalists who seem capable of critical thinking.
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September 28, 2021 8:05am
- igm
  
  How many current bogus journalists would hold positions in a Murdoch stable?
  None!
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:11am
- PhilBest
  
  If any journalists are capable of critical thinking and genuinely have a conscience over the lapdog role they are forced to play, I suspect that their position is similar to that of many doctors, police, etc – crushed under mortgage or rent payments and unable to just give The Man the finger and walk away.
  
  It is almost as if all this has been planned long since. Utopian transnational “save the planet” ideology has certainly been promoted heavily by the “global elites” and it is this that has turned the last couple of generations of much of the world’s population into mortgage or rental surfs like never before.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:18am
- Andrei
  
  Why is John Key waying in on this with “some totally sensible stuff”?
  
  The sting is in the tail
  
  “Vaccine Passports” – an instrument designed to make you surrender sovereignty over you own body to the Government
  
  An instrument that will allow the Government to permit or deny you access you any goods or services unless you conform to their will which can be totally arbitrary
  
  Do you trust Jacinda Ardern to make choices regarding your health for you and are you willing to give her the tools to enforce her choices on you
  
  If you trust her would you trust James Shaw to do it?
  
  Or that crazy pink haired lady who went paddling in Judges Bay?
  
  The very concept is an abomination
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:24am
  - PhilBest
    
    Every time someone who is supposed to be “Centre Right” signs up to some tyranny originating from the progressive Left, I think of historical parallels of the kind represented by THIS vignette:
    
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM-E2H1ChJM
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:24am
    - Jack5
      
      Re Phil’s illustration: Vichy French trying to out-sing the Germans in the film classic, “Cassablanca.”
      
      John Key’s no sell-out to the Left in the way the Vichy French were to Berlin.
      
      The reaction of the subsidised Herald to his pandemic comments shows Key is on target. The newspaper has been hammering Key for two days in response, trying to divert his comments into a supposed threat to National itself.
      
      In your re-make of “Casablanca”, Phil, you would have to include the Herald as the Vichy daily, L’Express de Casablanca, complete with its own Pied-Noir gossip scribbler, Simon Wilson.
      
      Key was right to re-focus the pandemic debate on the economic devastation from lockdown.
      
      We’re just about bust, and everyone wants to talk about fucking vaccination “passports” and top-up jabs.
      
      First, let’s get back the economic means to live.
      
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      September 28, 2021 10:57am
      - PhilBest
        
        Actually I am talking about the Vichy official shutting the place down when the Germans get out-sung.
        
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        September 28, 2021 11:10am
- Tomtoddy
  
  It would be quite funny if it didnt matter so much. Simon Wilson, the pathetic old socialist coot in the Ferald tries hard to find something wrong with what John Key said and ends up looking as foolish as he usually does. His conclusion is rubbish but it will please the paper’s masters and keep the taxpayer’s slush fund money pouring in.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:41am
  - sooty
    
    Don’t the labour sycophants hate Sir John Key, still!
    
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    September 28, 2021 4:01pm
- riffer
  
  It would be helpful if he was actually saying things that were true, to be honest.
  
  https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pro/pfizer-rebuts-john-keys-vaccine-payment-claim?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1632770470
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:54am
  - dcrane
    
    If Pfizer wants me to believe them, they can release the signed agreements made with world governments and information on the negotiations that led to them. Instead, these are being concealed.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:18am
    - krazykiwi
      
      Pfizer – a global bully
      
      Pfizer has been accused of “bullying” Latin American governments in Covid vaccine negotiations and has asked some countries to put up sovereign assets, such as embassy buildings and military bases, as a guarantee against the cost of any future legal cases, the Bureau of Investigative Journalism can reveal.
      
      In the case of one country, demands made by the pharmaceutical giant led to a three-month delay in a vaccine deal being agreed. For Argentina and Brazil, no national deals were agreed at all. Any hold-up in countries receiving vaccines means more people contracting Covid-19 and potentially dying.
      
      Officials from Argentina and the other Latin American country, which cannot be named as it has signed a confidentiality agreement with Pfizer, said the company’s negotiators demanded additional indemnity against any civil claims citizens might file if they experienced adverse effects after being inoculated. In Argentina and Brazil, Pfizer asked for sovereign assets to be put up as collateral for any future legal costs.
      
      One official who was present in the unnamed country’s negotiations described Pfizer’s demands as “high-level bullying” and said the government felt like it was being “held to ransom” in order to access life-saving vaccines.
      
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      September 28, 2021 10:09am
    - virtualmark
      
      dcrane,
      
      Companies don’t release commercially sensitive information just because someone wants them to.
      
      They’re not being “concealed”, any more than your private information is “concealed” too.
      
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      September 28, 2021 5:46pm
  - virtualmark
    
    Shrug.
    
    I’ve said repeatedly here that there was no option to pay more to accelerate delivery, but people here would rather have something (fake) to bitch about this government about than believe the truth. I doubt Pfizer coming out with this rebuttal will change many minds either.
    
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    September 28, 2021 5:47pm
    - Batman
      
      What’s your take on order date? I still think of government was negligent by not ordering last year.
      
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      September 28, 2021 7:18pm
      - virtualmark
        
        You need to distinguish between:
        – the date we committed for volume (and options),
        – the date the contract was finalised,
        – the date the contract was signed, and
        – the date the first “order” was placed (which in turn is linked to the date Pfizer can deliver the first batch)
        
        We placed our marker with Pfizer on the first of those dates. Then the other 3 dates are just steps in a process that follows making that commitment. Some of those steps take quite a while (for example contracts get signed after Cabinet approval) so the later dates can be quite a long time after the start of the process.
        
        The dates that various media and politicians have latched on to are mainly the last 2 dates. But the commitment was made quite a long time before then.
        
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        September 28, 2021 9:47pm
      - Okahu
        
        Perhaps Batman. Perhaps. But since you also must concede that you don’t actually know, or indeed have any evidence this was the case, you might do well to shelve your thought in the ‘just don’t know’ basket.
        
        We have disappeared down a dark epistemological hole when we can fall in behind an assertion of incompetence without needing any better evidence than our prejudice.
        
        I rather like to recall the great Christopher Hitchens’ declaration “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”. But what do we have to support Key or any of those who tell us we could have had more earlier? Nada, zip, zero.
        
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        September 28, 2021 9:59pm
- Isobar
  
  I think sitting around complaining about the media is frankly lazy. It might make you feel better but Its not going to get National elected, so the more they dwell on this, the more they will sit on the sidelines.
  
  I’m from Christchurch, our Auckland based media treat us terribly for the fact were the 2nd largest city in the country. There are many, many local issues that affect the whole South Island that just never get a look in. That said, that is the environment we operate in, we cannot change it so you just need to learn to work with it.
  
  National as well need to actually offer something – some significant policy for example. Doing nothing and expecting equal coverage as the Government rather than coverage relative to your proportional representation is a lot to ask for if you are in fact doing nothing pro-actively.
  
  I bet you could look on places like the Standard absolutely littered with complaints when Labour were in opposition of the media coverage they get. Same as when they are next in opposition. Its a timeless complaint.
  
  Frankly it is boring, and it does not actually address the fundamental issues the National Party has right now which make it unelectable to 76% of voters.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:23am
Tony Stuart

Is trouble brewing for Nanaia Mahuta over Three Waters? Chris Lynch from Christchurch (formerly Newstalk ZB) reports:

City councillors unite against “undemocratic” Government water reforms
Sep 27
Christchurch City councillors have united against “undemocratic” Government water reforms.

All Councillors unanimously rejected the Government’s three waters reform, saying the case doesn’t stack up for Christchurch.

Labour Councillor Yani Johanson said “Christchurch out of anyone should know that getting central government involved with bigger agencies and entities, does not provide efficiencies, we’ve had over a decade of that post earthquake and what we saw was massive costs, massive salaries for chief executives, complete lack of accountability back to the people of the city, I’m strongly against what’s proposed here.”

Councillor Sam MacDonald was scathing of the reforms saying it showed “how fundamentally flawed this model really is. I think what’s really alarming with this is that there’s been a range of advertisers, millions of dollars spent on consultants. The government doesn’t understand how councils operate.”

He said “they don’t respect local democracy, and they don’t want to look at other options, and I think that should alarm every person in Christchurch. It’s a real threat to I think the way in which we operate.”

“I’ve never seen a country more united in opposition to reforms that have been forced upon them, or the propaganda that’s been put forward and the peddling of information that can’t be validated.”

Councillor James Gough said “the content of the government’s three waters proposal demonstrates a total disregard for the fundamental principles of democracy, and what it suggests is blatant asset theft.”

“A Ministry of Health Report shows almost 97% of the New Zealand population is receiving the drinking water from a fully compliant, water supply, they’re not drinking sludge, like the condescending advertisement suggests. We’re simply being lied to, I don’t appreciate that, and neither do our residents.”

Gough said “if this proposal progresses in its current form, then the government will have a revolution on its hands.”

https://chrislynchmedia.com/newsitems/City%20councillors%20unite%20against%20%E2%80%9Cundemocratic%E2%80%9D%20Government%20water%20reforms

First up, it’s interesting to note that eight CCC councillors were elected on the Labour ticket in 2019. Yet council voted unanimously against a Labour government proposal.

Secondly, Mahuta has given Local Government New Zealand until 1 October to make submissions on Three Waters, yet at the weekend, jobs within Three Waters were being advertised on job sites around the country.

Mahuta seems determined to press on with Three Waters, regardless of what key stakeholders such as councils think. That smacks of arrogance, but it’s also indicative of just how much power Labour’s Maori caucus now holds within the party. Will Jacinda Ardern tell Mahuta to pull her head in, and run the risk of alienating a bloc of Labour’s caucus, or will she too ignore public opinion?

Three Waters is getting very interesting indeed! There’s also an excellent post this morning at Homepaddock:

https://homepaddock.wordpress.com/2021/09/28/plea-to-pull-plug-on-three-waters-proposal/
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September 28, 2021 8:09am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Great example of the government causing upheaval to fix some imaginary problem.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:19am
  - Albert_Ross
    
    The fact (which it is) that there’s plenty wrong with the solution proposed, doesn’t mean that there isn’t a problem; it means that a better solution is required.
    
    Unless you are truly proposing that New Zealand’s water management system is currently optimal, or that it doesn’t really matter whether it is because good water management isn’t that important?
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:04am
    - PhilBest
      
      One of the big problems about urban growth and hence housing affordability, is that Councils debt limits actually prevent them from facilitating growth. All debt is lumped together as if it is money borrowed to overcome a deficit for operating expenses, there is not sufficient distinction made for long term assets.
      
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      September 28, 2021 9:26am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    It’s not imaginary to Maori. Some still see themselves having spiritual attachment to the land. That justifies any attempt at reclamation.
    Further, Pakeha are suckers, because it is culturally acceptable for Polynesians to use deceit for advantage. It is not just caveat emptor but count your fingers and toes afterwards too.
    I believe Ardern has been trapped that way. The Maori ~~caucus~~ war party?
    
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    September 28, 2021 10:04am
- alex Masterley
  
  One of the things that intrigues me about three waters is how debt currently relating to water assets/infrastructure is dealt with.
  Such debt is a significant portion of existing local government debt. It is in effect secured by the council water assets.
  If the asset strip that is three waters goes ahead it would appear the entities taking over the assets will not take over the debt.
  If that is the case then literally all councils will have their asset to liability ratios tipped upside down. In stead of assets exceeding or equal to liabilities then liabilities will dramatically exceed asset values. The ability of councils to borrow to fund activities will be severely constrained. Debt ceilings will be breached. Quite frankly financial chaos in the local government will ensue.
  I cannot see those who lend to councils agreeing to this sort of asset grab as it will put their own lending at great risk.
  I dont think the government/ms Mahuta and her cabal of asset strippers have thought about this potential consequence.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:20am
  - info@cruzpro.com
    
    Yes they have. Getting the goods without having to pay for enables the government to spend more elsewhere.
    
    Labour is already advertising jobs for three waters despite the way too short consultation period is still in progress.
    
    Think they are feeling confident they can force this upon councils? Another law change coming under urgency?
    
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    September 28, 2021 8:32am
- pdm
  
  Those councillors can ecpect a call from either Helen Clar or Heather Simpson for not toeing the party line.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:21am
- RockyJ
  
  I note that Luxon does a good job of criticising this proposal on economic grounds but avoids any mention of the governance structure and its link to He Puapua.
  This is very disappointing. I think that National are trying too hard to be polite. It is well known that we kiwis are too polite but the time for nice is over.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:26am
  - Yabster
    
    yes I have mentioned that also previously- some of the councillors did say it was anti democratic but again no specific mention of why!
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:03am
  - Tauhei Notts
    
    I follow politics closely and gathered the opinion that if Luxon is the answer then it must have been a silly question.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:08am
    - Nickc2
      
      Agree. We don’t need a god bothering greenie in charge of the Hermit Kingdom.
      
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      September 28, 2021 3:29pm
  - Tony Stuart
    
    You may recall that Judith Collins first shone a light on this proposal back in May, in particular the fact that Maori would have a significant stake in Three Waters. As Local Government spokesman, Luxon is criticising the asset-grab aspect, which in itself is a good reason for lots more scrutiny of just what is being proposed here.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:08am
    - Suze Wainwright
      
      Indeed, our msm are right on top of it…
      
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      September 28, 2021 9:11am
  - 70andstilllearning
    
    Got properties in two DC’s in the Northern entity proposal. Compared the current costs ( adjusted in one case to account for low volume factor for the property) against the proposals current cost data. In one case the current costs were around 66% understated by the model, in the other case 100% overstated. The proposals economic estimates are utter crap.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:22am
- kowtow
  
  It’s all part of this govts’ attempt to continue to change the constitution . It is anti democratic, water is simply an excuse .
  
  https://www.dia.govt.nz/three-waters-reform-programme-iwi-maori-interests
  
  “As part of the Reform proposals, Cabinet has agreed to recognise and provide for Iwi/Māori rights and interests in the Reform with a specific focus on service-delivery. It is proposed that Iwi/Māori will have a greater role in the new Three Waters system, including pathways for enhanced participation by whānau and hapū as these services relate to their Treaty rights and interests.”
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:40am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    We have already paid generously for it with the Treaty “settlements”.
    Activists cannot rewrite nearly 200 years of Crown sovereignty.
    
    If Cinders and her ilk really believe it will end there they are truly living in a kindy sandpit. It won’t end until all land, water, air and other rights of existence are vested wholly in Maori and their spiritual attachments satisfied. The issues at play are beyond political. Now youth are seeking to win their mana and have picked up the mere.
    Maori are laughing at Ardern behind her back.
    
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    September 28, 2021 4:14pm
- Cassandra
  
  Mahuta’s approach has nothing to do with water per se and everything to do with the Treaty “partnership” and 50% of any benefit going to her wide family, it seems. Similarly the health setup where the family connection is direct. Jobs for the boys (and girls, of course). It’s starting to look like an episode of The Sopranos.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:42am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    That’s part of it.
    
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    September 28, 2021 4:15pm
- Ruahine
  
  To Phil Goff and Councillors of Auckland.
  
  When will you be announcing that there will be a referendum that will be put to the ratepayers of Auckland as to whether they want Aucklands Water Infrastructure control given to the Gov’t.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:44am
  - sooty
    
    Phool Goof is tribal labour, so he agrees with everything as it is!
    When he pulls out of his term as mayor, he fully expects to leave without a golden parachute too!
    All he wants is his wages pro rata to finishing date and will send back any gifts from council!
    
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    September 28, 2021 4:55pm
- Ehlana
  
  The TV adverts alone are enough to make me think this idea is very suspect. It starts with one of those statements no-one can disagree with – of course it would be awful if our water was not safe to drink. This opening statement suggests it is not and viewers would expect the government to have their facts right on such an important matter.
  
  But if our water is so awful, how come we haven’t heard about it – where is the news coverage of filthy sludge and hospitals overrun?
  
  Then there is the language used: “That’d be rude as, eh?”, sounds like something you would hear in a playground, not a serious conversation between adults. And certainly not appropriate from a government addressing the people it serves on an important health issue.
  
  At this point I’m too disgusted with the whole thing to watch further. I can only suggest that English teachers preserve it as a great example of propaganda.
  
  And I’d like to hear the Opposition parties produce policies on how to actually address any real issues – I suspect it’s really about changing how we fund Councils – and make it clear that it the current government goes down this path, it will be undone.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:55am
  - artemisia
    
    This is designed to be one of Ms Ardern’s ‘policies that stick’. Get it all set up, assets transferred and contracts entered into. Hard to reverse, and the very reason Minister Mahuta needs to force it through PDQ.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:29am
    - sooty
      
      “Policies that stick”, that’ll be a change won’t it!
      What’s worked so far?
      Not a bloody thing!
      As much use as tits on a bull, is cindy!
      
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      September 28, 2021 4:59pm
- Paulus
  
  I understand that whilst the two big cities Councils have turned down the three water proposal so far it will go ahead as Mahuta wants anyway.
  By turning down the initial draft proposals what the Councils are wanting to accept what they are told is of course more money.
  By printing more money Grant will give them what they want anyway.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:58am
  - sooty
    
    To get it over the line, bet they try bribing!
    But will the bribe be out in the public?
    
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    September 28, 2021 5:02pm
    - info@cruzpro.com
      
      The government tried to bribe the Whangarei/Northland councils with offers of tens of millions of dollars. I am glad that those bribes were rejected and us ratepayers still own our water infrastructure. Good on you WDC!
      
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      September 28, 2021 9:02pm
- 70andstilllearning
  
  Phil Goof was moaning the other day about Auckland providing 92% of the “assets” to the Northland/AKL proposed entity but only having 42% representation on the proposed new entity control. Whangarei DC on the hand outright rejected the proposal a few months back.
  
  Not surprising really, Goof needs all the $’s to fix his stuffed potable water supply & storm water/effluent problems while WDC is debt free on it’s assets and has enough future capacity to consider engaging in a commercial proposal to assist in supplying the burgeoning Mangawhai population from Whangarei’s catchments.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:58am
- RoboRob
  
  The labour CCC MPs rely on a voting base that would strongly oppose permanent chlorination of water. I strongly suspect they would have signed up for this otherwise. For once this has overridden their loyalty to the Labour party.
  
  Representatives representing the interests of their voting base, democracy in action?
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:59am
- Yabster
  
  Yeah I actually watched the meeting live -was pleased even some of the left leaning councillors rejected the current proposal. Gough is right if they try and steam roll councils they will be looking at some major issues -the Government gets feedback and is meant to then give more information out and the councils then vote on opt in or out.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:01am
- Philview
  
  I assume most of the electorate are unaware of what this is all about. Most of the media are very careful to avoid mention of the governance structure. Even the newly established crown agency to regulate water Taumata Arowai will have a governance structure primarily orientated towards Iwi.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:04am
- Suze Wainwright
  
  Tony, surely Ardern will be the one told to ‘pull her head in’ – and in the interests of progressive ‘partnership’ – that’s exactly what she’ll do…
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:09am
- Ra Henare
  
  The interesting thing is Local Government NZ (ie representing all councils) is in bed with Mahuta.
  
  They have signed an agreement with Mahuta!!!
  As I understand it(more to come out on Friday).
  The agreement supports 3 waters and says if all the Councils dont opt in they (LGNZ) will go public with their “disappointment”” blah blah.
  
  So is it true that some councils are threatening to withdraw from LGNZ over the matter?
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:17am
- RockyJ
  
  If you want an example of co-governance in inaction look no further than the Hauraki Gulf Forum. Set up in 2000 with the mandate to come up with proposals to improve the health of the Hauraki Gulf it has a split board of local authority representatives and iwi appointees.
  Over its 21 year history it has produced nothing that has been implemented.
  The reason is that any proposal it comes up with has a condition that grants some advantage to Maori that contributes nothing to marine conservation.
  Consequently the Hauraki Gulf is still a mess.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:33am
- 7kiwi11
  
  If you have seen the 3 Water advertisement (animated and with a togs togs undies joke to appeal to da yoof) you’d be forgiven for thinking it was a done deal, we should all be super excited and it will be happening in the near future.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:51am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Is that commercial subversion?
    
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    September 28, 2021 4:18pm
- Bob
  
  Mahuta couldn’t care less about what the public think about Three waters. Actually it should be FOUR waters, because once it is implemented there will be rivers of TEARS as the three systems fail.
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:00am
  - I remember when
    
    The SEA, Bob, the SEA.
    It’s the sea foresure.
    
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    September 28, 2021 3:10pm
70andstilllearning

Can anyone help me with finding FRONT page MSM articles on this 24 Sept Stats NZ media release. Should have been around about late Thursday morning onwards last week.

https://www.stats.govt.nz/news/surge-in-imports-results-in-record-monthly-trade-deficit

“Surge in imports results in record monthly trade deficit”

“Imports increased $1.8 billion in August 2021 compared with August 2020, resulting in a record monthly trade deficit of $2.1 billion, Stats NZ said today.
Exports were little changed, down $42 million.
“This is a larger deficit than normal because of higher values for imports, particularly vehicles, continuing the trend observed over the last few months. August is also the month when we typically see lower values for dairy exports,” international trade manager Alasdair Allen said.
The average monthly deficit for August months from 2002 to 2019 was $946 million.”

I put in this internet search “record nz balance of trade deficit” but only got MSM hits like the following which weren’t much help.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/431505/new-zealand-records-biggest-annual-trade-surplus-in-28-years-as-imports-drop

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/nz-annual-trade-deficit-smallest-in-six-years/WU7B4WFBHOUDB7JFKLO2HWLMAQ/

Any ideas anyone – or did Robo just forget to mention it so everyone else in the MSM missed hearing about it?
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September 28, 2021 8:11am
- PhilBest
  
  A very few countries have used their Covid success to become exporting powerhouses. China of course, but Taiwan certainly has too.
  
  NZ, on the other hand, has a treacherous socialist-watermelon government that is busily dismantling every sector that might help pay the rent, let alone turn us into an exporting powerhouse
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:15am
- cmm
  
  Tourism is knackered and is a large part of our earnings that probably do not count as exports though they really are in a way (we’re exporting leisure).
  
  No doubt that has a large impact on our balance of payments.
  
  The sooner MIQ goes, the sooner this industry can get going again.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:19am
  - 70andstilllearning
    
    The monthly movement was more than double what the pundits were predicting last week. Stat’s appears to be saying it’s due to price, not volume, so my logic says that a $2.1b monthly movement on top of the July deficit is going to impact the Q3 inflation figure something horrible.
    
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    September 28, 2021 8:30am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Foreign tourists have to purchase NZ dollars to fund their time in NZ. Even if they just bring their domestic currency with them that goes into our foreign exchange pool as it is used. That is why globally tourism provides a speedy boost to an economy.
    
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    September 28, 2021 4:26pm
    - 70andstilllearning
      
      Absolutely Kevo
      Without those FX funds you can’t buy exports. Remember the days when you could only buy a new car if you had FX somewhere so mainly high country farmers where I grew up. Prime Industries held us for last 18 months but some pretty dire comment out of Zespri today.
      
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      September 28, 2021 8:17pm
- I remember when
  
  And the current global logistics suggest that exports will have shipping problems for 12-18 months.
  Expect the deficit to continue.
  
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  September 28, 2021 3:16pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Expect it to worsen.
    
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    September 28, 2021 4:27pm
I remember when

We have been guaranteed that we will still be at some level of ‘covid control’ till the end of the year.
Grant offers advice that “Covid Passport” will be rolled out in November.
Once we have them, it then becomes necessary to find a use for them, so complete freedom can’t be allowed.
Roll on infinity.
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September 28, 2021 8:15am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  You can be assured that we will be under “covid control” for at least another year..and possibly 2 (until September 2023).
  
  There’s no way ordinary folks in NZ will be travelling out of the country before March 2022… as the “Trial on self-isolation” won’t have been analysed and the Government won’t have self-testing kits organised for folks to self-isolate safely.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:18am
  - Bobba Fret
    
    Covid will keep rolling along at least until the next election if Labour can stretch it that far.
    
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    September 28, 2021 10:08am
    - sooty
      
      Cindy will let go all restrictions just prior to the next election, If she can spin it that long!
      Just prior to the election to be let out of jail, karen and ken will be over the moon possibly!
      If cindy can’t convince them, they can be safe and free, she’s toast!
      
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      September 28, 2021 5:13pm
artemisia

How much more money should taxpayers give Wellington students? Story in Stuff today advocating for more free money from taxpayers.

Advocates say Wellington’s overpriced rental market leaves students with three options: abandon their studies, abandon the city, or accumulate thousands of dollars in student debt.

There are of course other options. How about hitting up parents ? Or taking a gap year, working 40+ hours, saving like mad. Moving into a boarding house. Sharing a room. Uni online while living in a cheaper location, or actually living at home.

Because rents are only going to go up, largely due to this government’s policies. Interest deductibility rules detail to be announced today – guess what, market rents rise and even landlords not affected much or at all by this particular policy, have the choice to meet the market.

According to the New Zealand Union of Students’ Association, the maximum amount a student – not living with parents – qualified for through the student allowance and accommodation supplement was $370.51 per week. Students could borrow $239.76 for weekly living costs through the student loan scheme.

Not trivial taxpayer funding, even if some might eventually have to be repaid.

There does seem to be more emphasis in the MSM on student living costs in Wellington, not so much on actual working families. Perhaps because some journalist are only recently out of the education system themselves. And it shows.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/housing-affordability/126501682/eat-noodles-while-you-finish-your-degree-is-the-student-allowance-payment-too-rigid-to-meet-inflated-housing-costs
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September 28, 2021 8:16am
- In Vino Veritas
  
  Come out with debt. Like students have for years. If you take a crap major, like Womans Studies or Fat Studies, or a Bachelor in Climate Change, then don’t expect to pay it off too fast. But that’s the students problem for taking a crap degree.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:10am
  - Libertarians are right
    
    The girl in the article has lined up a future as an activist politician for the Green party. She isn’t planning on ever participating in our economy. She wants to be in charge.
    
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    September 28, 2021 10:18am
- PhilBest
  
  The problem is that when property markets are distorted by anti-sprawl urban planning, every subsidy you throw at the demand side just pushes prices and rents up some more. This just creates black holes for taxpayers money and transfers the said wealth to landlords.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:30am
  - riffer
    
    Exactly Phil. It’s hard not to see any increased accommodation allowance as anything other than welfare for dwelling owners. It’s not like the students will see the money for long.
    
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    September 28, 2021 10:14am
- david
  
  *it happens when you aspire t0 attend a crap woke Uni like Vic.
  
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  September 28, 2021 3:42pm
Kiwi_in_Paris

Kiwi UFC fighters saying they will leave New Zealand for the US. When I think of communist regimes I think of food queues, fuel queues, power shortages, lack of human rights, such as freedom of speech and movement. Oh, I have just described the UK I think, lol (strangely under a “conservative government” but we know there are only globalist and non-globalist governments now).

People flocked back to New Zealand because they considered it a safe haven. Now they realize it is a North Korea style Marxist state, the talented ones will begin to leave again. Another symptom of communism, people leaving, if they still can (see the US Democrat states as a good example).

Covid, the first virus to be cured by communism?

https://www.mmamania.com/2021/9/26/22695153/israel-adesanya-coming-to-america-dan-hooker-new-zealand-covid-treatment-ufc-266

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhZcn09jW_o
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September 28, 2021 8:17am
- riffer
  
  If this country truly was like North Korea you would have been executed by now…
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:15am
Yvette

What use is the Treaty of Waitangi?
“I think some of the ethical decisions the Government has to take. do change a little bit in the context of everybody having access to the vaccine and having had ample opportunity to be vaccinated,” Hipkins said.

The Treaty of Waitangi seems to now pervade almost everything Government does, to be perceived in legislation, spread through reports (from Climate Change to He Paupau), from broadcasting to so-called waters reform.
But not, it appears, to covid considerations.

What of the Treaty’s Articles that preserve taonga (not least of which must be the now rather vulnerable Maori elderly, treasured in their own right, but holding knowledge of other taonga), the promise of status equal to other “British subjects” and the responsibilities too that go with that, and the promise of protection, as of other subjects?

Why is the so-called partnership of the Treaty not raised as a factor in urging Maori (as well as the rest of the nation, supposedly the other “British subjects”) to get vaccinated, or is the Treaty not a “living founding document, but just an bloody badly written historic real-estate agreement?

So besides lockdowns, the rules of hygiene, social spacing, and mask use, all this Government (the “Crown) has to offers is vaccination. That is all the protection available.
But – “You can’t absolutely force people to see sense, but what you can do is give them all the tools.” [1]

And – Sir John acknowledged there were people who couldn’t get the vaccine for medical reasons. He said that meant there was more onus on the people, who can safely get the Covid-19 vaccine, to get it. [1]

So, what fucking use is the Treaty, if you don’t use it? And if it doesn’t offer any solution in this nation’s “life and death situation” (– Ardern), where many kaumātua: koroua and kuia may be decimated, will it just be the source of Tribunal compensation appeals after a decimation disaster occurs?

[1] https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/john-key-backs-move-take-away-liberties-make-people-get-covid-jab – among disparaging headlines : John Key backs move to ‘take away liberties’ to make people get Covid jab and Chris Hipkins says John Key ‘smug’ comment an ‘insult to New Zealanders’, I use Sir John’s quotes to show you can sort the seed from what may be chaff, which is better than Hipkin’s take, or Ardern’s claim “Govt already using Key’s ‘reasonable’ Covid response ideas”
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September 28, 2021 8:18am
I remember when

The government still don’t have a plan to allow health care workers a path through the MIQ system.
We can introduce a completely new Maori Health Authority – but we can’t tweek MIQ.
Never mind, we will train some qualified other department nurses in respirator skills.
There that fixed – oops now there’s a problem in a different place.
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September 28, 2021 8:20am
- Master Mariner
  
  Same as NZ Seafarers signing off overseas. Gee whizz who would of thought ships sail overseas.
  
  What is the definition of “overseas”, ? Hint, That is what Ships do, Sail Over Seas. Planes Fly Over Seas.
  
  So next question, Why do Air crew get treated differently to Seafarers ?
  Clue,
  One is owned ( Mostly) by the Government and the other is NO NZ owned shipping that crosses Over Seas.
  Great for a Country at the Arse End of the Globe and 3 Wakas on NZ Coat of Arms.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:20am
- Ehlana
  
  There might not be much point in bringing in overseas health workers, I remember when. Our new health structure, as I recall, gives the Maori Health Authority (MHA) veto rights over all health care in New Zealand.
  We have already been told that the whole system is racist; why would the MHA allow us to bring in more workers like those we already have? Do these workers know the principles of the Treaty? Are they fluent in te reo?
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:43am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    There is NO Maori Health Authority. No such critter has been legislated so far.
    Squash it before we require vaccination against it too.
    
    Why should our lives be dictated too by a declining ethnic group?
    They have become so crossbred it is time to scrap the so called Treaty. They have been paid out anyway.
    
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    September 28, 2021 4:40pm
KevO'Brien

Why are the US, UK, EU, Canadian, Australian, and New Zealand governments conducting a Holocaust policy against their own people?
https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2021/09/27/scandinavian-governments-announce-covid-is-over-israel-announces-the-vaccine-doesnt-protect/
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September 28, 2021 8:20am
- Benedict Yu
  
  This MIQ thing is up there with the worst public policies I have ever seen. New Zealand citizens being excluded from their own countries.
  
  I recall at the start of the pandemic commenting here that would never happen. Wrong again.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:36am
  - PhilBest
    
    The prize for world’s worst must surely go to Australia where they are not even allowing people to leave. Someone should organize a refugee boat to somewhere. There would be money in it. Perhaps the people-smuggling industry that has been trying to get boats TO Australia, could switch objectives?
    
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    September 28, 2021 8:48am
  - UrbanNeocolonialist
    
    If all the kiwis trying to get home were to get together and charter a ship and arrive in NZ coastal waters the govt would have to let them in. Bring sea kayaks and let them all paddle in from beyond the 12 mile limit.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:03am
    - PhilBest
      
      Could they stop them anyway if they organized it well? Your kayaks principle is good, those inflatables with outboard motors are a better idea. Just let a few dozen of them race for shore, each one spaced a few kilometers from the next one.
      
      I’ve said for years that NZ couldn’t stop a concerted organized illegal boat people arrival, it is a wonder that the people smuggling industry hasn’t taken advantage of our weakness, in fact it was the Aussies intercepted one really large boat a few years ago that was headed for here.
      
      I never thought the suggestion might end up applying to Kiwi citizens locked out by their own gummint!
      
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      September 28, 2021 9:34am
lazza

Seymour …
Sounding Prime Ministerial on Hosk …
this AM.
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September 28, 2021 8:22am
Warren

You can’t tell me that Jacinda Ardern our Prime Minister had not been told about the latest poll as why has she rushed out the new Quarantine plan that will allow some to be able to quarantine at home after business trips.
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September 28, 2021 8:22am
- Philview
  
  I suspect those 150 spaces will mostly be covered by politicians and people associated to the Labour Party.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:10am
- cmm
  
  Naah. Where’s the win in making life easier for Rich Pricks?
  
  This is just entitlement – looking after her mates.
  
  Jimmy Shaw won’t have to sit in MIQ when he gets back from Glasgow.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:30am
  - Paulus
    
    But do not Shaw’s 14 companions have to go into MIQ Lottery ?
    Or are they special ?
    
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    September 28, 2021 1:43pm
    - cmm
      
      What do you think eh?
      
      The 150 is for business people or people on government business. No doubt the government people get first dibbs.
      
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      September 28, 2021 3:12pm
Nukuleka

For years RNZ Concert has held its annual ‘settling the score’ competition in which listeners vote for their favourite piece of classical music and a countdown of the winners is played. Seems that ‘competition’ in public broadcasting is now a dirty word as the competitive element is now to be discarded in favour of, to use RNZ’s word, a more ‘collaborative’ approach. They even manage to get Ardern’s ‘team of 5 million’ into play in their rebranding. It may seem a minor or trivial issue but for those of us who take an analytical approach to change it seems to be yet further evidence of a deliberate public service woke attitude- to denigrate the concept of ‘competition’ and shore up this jingoistic and facile ‘we’re all part of the Kiwi team’ smugness.
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September 28, 2021 8:28am
- Albert_Ross
  
  Or maybe it’s just that the presenters are fed up to the back teeth of having to play the same tired old collection of hackneyed, overplayed pieces year after year
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:55am
dime

Thinking about the “vaccine passports”. Potentially one of the creepiest things in human history when it comes to infringing on privacy.

You know the leftists dream – digital! every time you get scanned, it goes to the database.

That wimp police commissioner will be all over it “check the database, lets track his movements for the last 3 months” etc etc

it will be portrayed as just so sensible

“it will help stop COVID and the 80,000 deaths. it will also help the police keep YOU safe, comrade”.

Dime is aware that smart phones can be tracked, and if the glorious state wants to they can get location data etc its awful, but at least its not at their fingertips.

Cant we just reissue drivers licenses with a vaccine section?

i hate it, but i can tolerate flashing a card.

but being logged everywhere i go forever, far out. dreepy creepy creepy
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September 28, 2021 8:49am
- artemisia
  
  Welcome back dime. You were missed.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:34am
  - dime
    
    cheers!
    
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    September 28, 2021 11:01am
    - sooty
      
      The answer dime is, how many drive and not have a drivers license?
      
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      September 28, 2021 5:22pm
- 70andstilllearning
  
  But our oh so truthful gov’t have Promised “the data” will only be available to health (MoH/DoPH) for contact tracing – no data sharing with police, ,etc etc,……………………………………………..
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:50am
- Antoine
  
  DIIIIIMMMMMEEEEEE!
  
  Welcome back
  
  A.
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:01am
  - dime
    
    cheers!
    
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    September 28, 2021 11:01am
- godruelf
  
  Also nice to see you back Dime
  
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  September 28, 2021 5:26pm
dime

The second thought of the morning..

LOL @ the 150 chosen few who will get to self quarentine.

“only the most loyal party members will be able to choose this option. One needs to apply, in triplicate, to the ministry. its all very efficient and allows the state to ensure you are worthy. after all, you losers are stupid and cannot be trusted. only once vetted by a beaurocrat, may you be allowed this special priviledge.”
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September 28, 2021 8:52am
- sooty
  
  Please enclose a copy of labour party card!
  
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  September 28, 2021 5:23pm
Yabster

From Hobsons Pledge: Shows our MSM bias:

Our petition calling on the Prime Minister to delete any reference in official communication to any name for our nation other than New Zealand has drawn a big response and has shown the extent to which the mainstream media blacklists anything other than the approved narrative.

We sent the media release announcing the petition to 87 media outlets and only three picked it up, with one, Scoop, being the repository of all media releases sent out. The two other outlets to pick it up were the BFD, published by Cameron Slater, and Sunlive in Tauranga, which referred to it in an interview with Simon Bridges who is the city’s MP.

By contrast, the Maori Party’s petition to change the name of our nation to Aotearoa, as well as the names of every city, town and place that does not have a Maori name received blanket coverage.

Censorship of news and blacklisting unapproved information is a basic problem for any democracy.

This is because the active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life is one of the four cornerstones of democracy.

The other cornerstones are a system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections, the protection of the human rights of all citizens, and governance based on the rule of law.

Once “unapproved information” is censored from public discussion, citizens are prevented from active participation in civic life, and one of the four pillars of our democracy crumbles.

Our petition gathered more than 16,600 signatures in the first week. We could double the number of signatures if all who have signed encourage another person to sign. Please share this email with others and ask your friends to sign.
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September 28, 2021 8:54am
- kowtow
  
  A commenter on BBand H made the point that we now live in a country with the hall marks of soft authoritarianism in that the electorate is no longer informed of what’s happening. As he said that is not “hyperbole”.
  
  The other and very much related issue is the media having now literally contracted to the govts’ rules of “active protection” of treaty .
  
  That’s why the media won’t even call gangs , gangs ,they are marginalised groups .
  
  We do now live in an Orwellian dystopia .
  
  Be very afraid.
  
  Voters need to get engaged and educate themselves about how our constitution has been undermined by this very cynical , manipulative regime .
  
  I used to think they were just useless , but they have a plan and it’s anti democratic.
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:34am
Old.Mickey.Blue.Eyes

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/09/five-year-133m-revamp-for-auckland-city-s-midtown-unveiled-by-council.html So Auckland council which is already $8000m in whole for real infrastructure, with Regional petrol tax due to expire wants to spend money on this…..
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September 28, 2021 8:55am
Old.Mickey.Blue.Eyes

I’m picking that if and when you read this post, (put on our PM’s page) you will find it hard to disagree with the logic.

Posted on Jacinda Ardern’s page:
by a person named Jo Wright

Of all the vaccines I have taken in my life like Tetanus shots, measles, mumps, polio, meningitis, TB shots, etc…
Never have I heard so many lies and deceptions over a vaccine that says I have to wear a mask and socially distance even when fully vaccinated, and that I could still contract or spread the virus even after being fully vaccinated.

Never had to get tested when I was perfectly healthy without any symptoms whatsoever.

Never been bribed by the establishments to take the vaccine in order to win a holiday and/or cash prizes or earn frequent flyer points.
I never had to worry about cardiac issues, neurological disorders, blood clots and sadly more! Didn’t even have to worry about death.

Never was I ever THREATENED by the use of FORCE by the Government, Employers, Police force, and Military for a vaccine as seen overseas.

I was never judged by my friends or relatives if I didn’t take it. I was never discriminated against for travel or other regular services to a point where I could not buy or sell without it.

The vaccines I have listed above never told me I was a bad person for not taking them or for even taking them for that matter.
I have never seen a vaccine that threatened the relationship between my family members and/or close friends to a point of destroying my relationships with them ever.
Never have I seen it used for political gain.

Never seen a vaccine needing 24/7 mass media advertising and promotion on every media outlet known to man.
Then there’s mixing and matching different vaccine brands and being told it’s okay to do it one day and then told the next day to not do it (overseas).
I have never seen a vaccine threaten someone’s livelihood, as well as wipe out their jobs.

I have never seen a vaccine that allows a 12-year-old child’s consent to supersede their parent’s consent (that one alone blows me away).

Finally, after all the vaccines (jab, shots) I listed above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one that discriminates, divides, and judges a society. So much information is censored, deleted, and removed from the internet and mainstream media!

So many doctors, health care professionals, police and scientists are censored and forbidden to speak out or ask legitimate questions when what is being allowed or not allowed does not make sense! Particularly when it comes from mainstream media. I have never known a vaccine that has made all the Pharmaceutical companies that manufacture it exempt from liability if it kills everyone to a point where no life insurance will cover it!

This is one powerful vaccine guys! It does all these things above that I have mentioned and yet? It does NOT do the one thing it is supposed to do which is?
FIGHT OFF THIS PANDEMIC so why on earth would I get it ??‍♀️
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September 28, 2021 8:55am
- kowtow
  
  I bet it’s since been taken down .
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:37am
dcrane

Interesting Substack discussion of a preprint paper titled “The SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant is poised to acquire complete resistance to wild-type spike vaccines”

Gives some explanation of the manner in which vaccine-induced antibodies can perversely worsen infection by a disease following immune escape.

https://eugyppius.substack.com/p/preprint-the-sars-cov-2-delta-variant
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September 28, 2021 8:56am
- PhilBest
  
  Geert Vanden Bossche and Robert Malone discussing potential unintended consequences for virus evolution and human reactions to it, “because of” these vaccines.
  
  https://hotcopper.com.au/threads/vanden-bossche-robert-malone-new-video.6308405/
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:38am
- krazykiwi
  
  That’s heavy reading. Needs two or three attempts!
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:15am
- Fletch
  
  Wow, that’s incredible. So, in the case of mutation of the virus, these vaccines that we are all being pressured to take will actually increase infectivity and will hurt the patient more than they will protect him….
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:10am
  - krazykiwi
    
    There was a helpful “not it’s not as bad as suggested” comment from Dr Mike Yeadon.
    
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    September 28, 2021 12:37pm
  - dcrane
    
    Well, not that they necessarily will do so, but that there is a possibility that they might. The effect has been observed in some other vaccine systems.
    
    This is one of the reasons it is a bad idea to force vaccination down into the lower age cohorts where covid risks are already low. Doing so maximizes the pressure on the virus to find a way around the vaccines. We will be placing all of our bets on the idea that replacement mRNAs based on the new variants will solve the problem (I think).
    
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    September 28, 2021 2:45pm
    - Surely Knott
      
      Incoming from California, we have a new variant. The R.1
      
      “According to the CDC, the first cases of the R.1 variant in the U.S were detected at a nursing facility in Kentucky where both vaccinated and unvaccinated residents were infected. Meaning this variant has the capability to evade the antibodies produced by the vaccine.”
      
      So it can evade the vaccine. And both vaccinated and unvaccinated were infected. So what does the article recommend we do. “Get vaccinated.”
      
      Anyways, the daily mail and telegraph have also been posting about a terrible cold with symptoms identical to Covid that is doing the rounds in the UK. Is this an ADE effect. Who knows. The expert said to assume it’s covid and if you are under 60 stay home. They don’t seem to be measuring or recording these people so how do we know what the wider impact of our interventions (vax, masks isolation) have been on our respiratory health overall.
      
      https://abc7news.com/r1-variant-covid-in-ca-mu/11054319/
      
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      September 28, 2021 7:16pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    You got it. That’s the opinion of many real experts.
    
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    September 28, 2021 4:45pm
KH

Three Waters. They say Maori will have 50% control. Not true.
Control will be held by the Maori bureaucracy, troughers supreme, who do connect in any real way to the maori population.
If maori are represented by maori entities, it would require proper election, one person one vote and no gerrymandering.
Doesn’t happen, it’s all just nasty Iwi politics.
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September 28, 2021 8:56am
- Philview
  
  Yes, I agree the terminology should really be ‘private Iwi corporations’. This not about providing equitable outcomes to impoverished people.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:16am
- 70andstilllearning
  
  Can’t imagine the scrap that could happen up our way for “control”. Was associated with an Iwi organisation many years ago and saw first hand the internal “politics” that went on around one of the settlements representation. It’s still not solved damn near a decade later.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:59am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Is this going to be another fishing rights shares repeat?
  I see Waikato’s large hands out but what about the other tribes?
  Are they going to let Waikato reduce their mana? A Maori civil war could be in the making.
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:13am
- Libertarians are right
  
  But that’s the thing they don’t tell you. The Treaty wasn’t with Maori – it was with the Maori Elites. It confers power to Iwi, not individual Maori. Ordinary Maori get no protection in the second article and their only rights are those that all NZers have (from article three).
  
  This push for “partnership” will actually massively decrease the personal agency of individual Maori as they will no longer be participating in Democracy but instead be subjected to Tribal rule with all the corruption and inequality that entails.
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:30am
- Fletch
  
  Control will be held by the Maori bureaucracy, troughers supreme, who do connect in any real way to the maori population
  
  If this is the case, then I hate to say it, but the money will be frittered away, given to fanou, friends, etc, and the next thing you’ll see is a story in the Herald about how none of it is left.
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:01am
  - Ehlana
    
    No, Fletch, for as long as you are required to buy water from these entities, they will have an income stream.
    
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    September 28, 2021 1:14pm
    - KevO'Brien
      
      What if they sell off water to Nestles?
      
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      September 28, 2021 4:47pm
      - Nickc2
        
        When those monies are gone, what’s stopping them from coming back for another bite of the cherry? Isn’t that what’s happening with ToW settlements?
        
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        September 28, 2021 5:04pm
UrbanNeocolonialist

Government have failed completely at building up the hospital capacity needed to handle Covid sweeping through even a highly vaccinated NZ. We have typically only about 20% of 300ICU beds available, and this has dropped since the start of the pandemic. The govt will try to maintain lockdowns to ‘flatten the curve’ for another year in these circumstances. So what can we do to get ourselves out of this trap? Some ideas:

1/ Send as many vaccinated NZ adults as possible on overseas holiday and deliberately infect them on the plane (after dosing them up with all the risk reducing drugs available). If they get really sick then they can use hospitals at their destinations, and at end of holiday they have natural immunity and can return to NZ. This is particularly useful if send middle aged and elderly that are most likely to burden our hospital system.

2/ Medivac sick to countries with hospital resources to handle seriously sick.

3/ Offer large pay to experienced 3rd world medical staff to come and work in NZ hospitals for 6-12 months as we deal with Covid wave. At same time get someone competent to build up a shit-load of overflow hospital space to handle extra Covid patients.
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September 28, 2021 8:56am
- PhilBest
  
  I have said all along that I would love the opportunity to contract Covid under my terms and get natural immunity.
  
  The trick is to get infected with a low inoculum dose, not a high one. It is all about inhalation of aerosolized virus, its concentration in the air and how long you were inhaling it.
  
  Living 24/7 in an environment with aerosol buildup is what results in 30% death rate of those in that environment.
  
  Those who work in an environment with aerosol buildup, such as cool stores, tend to get very ill and maybe some die. But at least they spent most of every 24 hours out of that environment.
  
  The vast majority of people who got an asymptomatic infection or only a mild cold like range of symptoms, are those who spent half an hour or so somewhere.
  
  Quite frankly I think the reports that someone contracted an infection just by walking past someone the other way, are total BS and the officials just haven’t worked out where the person REALLY got infected, because they have been so clueless all along about aerosol buildup being the main thing. No proximity is actually needed.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:43am
  - dcrane
    
    Yes, and to be able to do so when healthy, when well-stocked with nutritional immune support, and with good medical care like monoclonal antibodies at the ready if needed [deleted, KB does not promote unproven medical treatments – Mod].
    
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    September 28, 2021 8:13pm
dime

last one..

im not sure if you are all up to play with shipping at the moment but goddam, what a debacle.

this one isnt all on the govt.

to give you an idea.

Cost of a 40 foot container from jakarta:

feb 2020 – 3k
May 2021 – 11k
August 2021 – 15k.
*these numebrs off the top of my head, i looked it up pre-lockdown so may be a touch off, but close enough.

China – 20 foot was $1800. Now 6-7k.

Massive delays.

Shipping from LA – 6-8 week wait to get a vessel booked.

The flow on to the consumer will became apparent in the following months.

Dime advises doing your shopping early. There will be shortages (as with an socialist utopia).

Ive been told a container ship used to spend approx 8 days in NZ.. now its closer to 24. That explains some of the cost.

But most is due to international factors. Its not going to ease up for a long time either.
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September 28, 2021 8:57am
- PhilBest
  
  Disruptions to supply chains could help bring on the hyperinflation we seem to have dodged for so long from all that endless money-printing.
  
  The reason the world does not become Zimbabwe or the Weimar Republic for year after year in spite of central bankers best efforts to bring it on, is superabundance of available goods to buy, and also bubbles to feed in things that didn’t exist before, such as cryptocurrencies.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:45am
- 70andstilllearning
  
  “Ive been told a container ship used to spend approx 8 days in NZ”
  
  A container with my one of kids stuff bound for Oz has been sitting in AKL for around 3 months!
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:02am
- RW Capitalist
  
  Just looked at a couple of my customs agent’s invoices and quotes from 2017 and this year.
  Customs charges
  landing and inspection charges etc have all gone up…that is on the govt.
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:05am
- Paulus
  
  But how much does a loaded Coal ship cost from Indonesia to Tauranga ?
  
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  September 28, 2021 1:47pm
  - sooty
    
    Less if it has a coal powered engine.
    
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    September 28, 2021 5:32pm
Maggy Wassilieff

There was quite a bit of publicity a few months ago when Dr Wehi and some Otago Uni colleagues opined that Polynesians sailed to Antarctica in pre-European times.

It will be interesting to see if the MSM picks up on this Short communication by Atholl Anderson and others on the improbability of such voyages.

On the improbability of pre-European Polynesian voyages to Antarctica: a response to Priscilla Wehi and colleagues
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03036758.2021.1973517?src=

Polynesian voyaging through the circumpolar westerlies would have little chance of success and archaeological evidence of Polynesian voyaging does not extend south of about 50° South. It is concluded that Antarctic voyaging by pre-European Polynesians seems most unlikely.
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September 28, 2021 9:03am
- fightingtemeraire
  
  Unlikely!!! No way BLOODY IMPOSSIBLE.
  
  As a Master Mariner who has done the Great Circle course from Bluff to Panama several times they wouldnt have survived 1 day in those latitudes in an open canoe and NO cold weather gear.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:29am
  - UrbanNeocolonialist
    
    The native yanghan population of tierra del fuego (about 54° south, further south than Campbell Island) survived year round by diving naked for shellfish even in winter. Humans can adapt for terrible cold even when naked, living through southern winters for a few centuries without animal skins for clothing might have made the local Maori more suited to cold wet conditions.
    
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    September 28, 2021 2:08pm
    - Master Mariner
      
      Yes indeed. I have spent a ;pt of time working in Ushuia up the Beagle channel. I believe alecuffe Indian ( Spelling wrong), They actually have a special gene that allows them to adapt to Cold water/weather.
      Only a handful left I believe. Hence its name Terra del fuego ( Land of fire) as it was bloody cold.
      
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      September 29, 2021 6:58am
  - Matt Long
    
    If I had photoshopping skills I would have done the Mars robot encountering a Waka full of warriors, about the same level of credibility as Antarctica.
    
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    September 28, 2021 4:11pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    While there is some evidence that Maori may have voyaged to the sub-Antarctic Islands, even the indefatigable James Cook couldn’t manage to sight the continent.
    
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    September 28, 2021 5:15pm
    - dcrane
      
      Since Cook knew how to leave records at least we know in his case.
      
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      September 28, 2021 8:16pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    It might also have been easier to reach the sub-Antarctic from NZ in a slightly warmer climate. Climate change could have been one reason why Maori abandoned ocean voyages in the centuries after their arrival in Aotearoa.
    
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    September 28, 2021 5:18pm
    - Master Mariner
      
      There various reports from Sealers that Auckland Is were inhabited by Maori. Seems crediable but thats the limit South I believe 52 deg South.
      
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      September 29, 2021 7:01am
- Suze Wainwright
  
  This Atholl fellow sounds extremely racist and has no respect whatsoever for first people’s science…
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:24am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Prof Atholl Anderson is no racist and is the foremost NZ Archaeologist of NZ.
    
    He doesn’t rely on “Grey Literature” for his research.
    
    https://www.otago.ac.nz/alumni/people/otago710925.html
    
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    September 28, 2021 12:47pm
    - Ed Snack
      
      Maggy, I suspect Suze left the /s tag off…
      
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      September 28, 2021 1:05pm
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        Yes, I realise that..
        
        However, just in case folks want to level that accusation at Atholl Anderson, they should realise he has Ngai Tahu ancestry.
        
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        September 28, 2021 4:43pm
Maggie Pie

Auckland should prepare for the return to a ‘Bespoke Alert Level 2’ next Tuesday, October 5th.

People with knowledge of the matter (who wish to remain anonymous), are saying that privately, Jacinda has been telling them she’s “worried sick” about the number of retail outlets that have closed down in the city.
The plethora of ‘For Lease’ signs, appearing in areas like Ponsonby, Newmarket, Pt Chev, Parnell, Queen Street, Sylvia Park, Takapuna et al, is unprecedented.

It’s understood that ‘off-the-record’, Jacinda confided in both Tova and Jess over lunch recently…. “that even SHE is finding it difficult to locate enough Recycle Boutiques and Nic-Nac stores open in Tamaki Makaurau, where she can go to spend her $9058 a week, taxpayer funded salary”.
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September 28, 2021 9:06am
- Odakyu-sen
  
  Can we go to ‘Bespoke Alert Level 2’ next Tuesday, October 5th if several coronavirus “positives” a day are popping up in Auckland?
  
  We went to Level 4 last time after only one “positive”.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:46am
  - Ehlana
    
    Case numbers at level 3 don’t look much different to what they were when Auckland was stuck at level 4 and the rest of the country had moved on.
    So if level 3 hasn’t changed the case numbers, will level 2?
    
    The reason to move to level 2 will be a political calculation that people won’t take level 3 anymore. A sort of ” there go my people, I must run to get in front of them so I can lead…”
    
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    September 28, 2021 2:14pm
    - dcrane
      
      Given the low numbers per day it probably hasn’t been long enough to see a clear effect of the level change. This week should tell the tale though.
      
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      September 28, 2021 8:18pm
  - Matt Long
    
    Well if I lived in Auckland and wanted to go to level 2, I would organise a BLM matter march for the weekend, the regressives will fall over themselves to be present to “take a knee” and be forced to admit they have de facto moved to level 2.
    
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    September 28, 2021 4:17pm
- Yvette
  
  Maggie Pie
  
  “Elections are still won and lost in Auckland”
  Of John Key’s pandemic opinion piece, Hipkins said on TVNZ’s Q A programme on yesterday morning, it was an insult to New Zealanders, but also “I think it’s a great piece of politics”
  
  Was the Auckland level 4 lockdown eased because of cases, linked and unlinked, being less (and indeed they are not) than the one case that started it, or a greater concern now about the politics involved?
  
  Once Covid world-beaters, the mood in New Zealand is changing – and Jacinda Ardern knows it
  … Frustration in Auckland has been rising and cabinet would have known it was at risk of losing the crowd; there’s no point imposing level 4 when you know people are going to change their behaviour regardless. Part of good public health management is knowing how much people can take, and Auckland was cracking.
  
  Don’t forget, elections are still won and lost in Auckland. Labour recovered in the provinces at the last election and over-performed in rural areas. But Ardern knows she can’t hold those numbers and Auckland will be key to another term.
  
  https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/sep/24/once-covid-world-beaters-the-mood-in-new-zealand-is-changing-and-jacinda-ardern-knows-it
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:55am
  - sooty
    
    When’s labour going to trundle out the clarkenfurhrer to counter Key’s arguments?
    They do seem slow! Surely they aren’t relying on chipper to do the heavy lifting!
    
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    September 28, 2021 5:40pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  There will be lot more businesses to fold.
  Jacinda has brought this on herself. She doesn’t know enough for her paygrade. Her job is really steering the Ship of State but that is not mechanical. Even a Social Republic Leader needs the mettle for battle and the basic skills of organisation.
  As Winston virtually appointed her, her withdrawal would be no dishonour. There is much worse to come.
  
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  September 28, 2021 5:24pm
Swifty

A brief post on the appalling journalistic ethics of a NZ Herald reporter witnessed recently.

Over the last few days someone close to me has established a Facebook group, MAC (Mt Albert Community) Women/Wahine, as a support to and for women following the tragic killing of Lena Zhang Harrap.

The group has ‘exploded’ with 500-odd members joining within the first 48 hours or so.

The group is for women only, and is ‘private’ with membership requiring application and approval and posts closely moderated.

Shortly after the group was created an individual, using their personal Facebook account, applied to join this private group.

Then, shortly after, an article appeared in the Herald with comments and commentator names harvested from the group chat and group posts.

This instantly drew surprise and some anger from women members who asked of the two group founders how this was ‘allowed’ to happen – and 1. that if they had been asked for permission would have declined and 2. if they knew that their comments would be published in the Herald would never have made the comments in the first place.

The founders however were equally surprised as at no stage did the Herald reporter responsible for the article either declare herself as a reporter nor ask for permission from anyone to harvest comments and names before publication.

Upon being challenged the reporter has apologised, updated her article and removed the commentator names while retaining the comments.

She has also now been blocked from the group.

The updated article can be found here:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/mt-albert-murder-grief-and-anger-prompts-new-womens-facebook-group/H2OLDPDB5GEKWOLIT5FUXFDQFU/

I’ll leave it up to KBers to make their own judgements on the ethics of this reporter’s actions – but I consider it a low trick to infiltrate a private group and with the intention of making an article from the comments and commentators – and without either declaring your interest and intention nor seeking the permission of anyone else involved.

(I note also that when apologising the reporter said that the group founders should have made it more explicit that comments were not for publication. Talk about blaming the victim. It is a private group – it goes without saying that the comments are private. And if in any doubt, then ask!)

I would trust that the reporter, who is not some young cub reporter but who has extensive journalism experience domestically and internationally, will reflect on the irony of a woman infiltrating a private space for women for their own benefit and damaging the safety and interests of other women in doing so.

A poor show NZ Herald.

(Mods, every statement I have made here is true and correct to my knowledge, is all documented and comes straight from the mouth of one of the group founders.)
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September 28, 2021 9:18am
- artemisia
  
  Similar with the large NZ property investors private Facebook group. More than one journalist blocked after scraping and quoting posts. (Group is closing on 60,000 members.)
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:51am
- alex Masterley
  
  As this tragic event unfolded and following the discovery of the young woman’s body the police OC in a statement said the family were seeking privacy and that the media were not to contact them.
  This suggested to me that they had been contacted and probably had media types outside their house. That they should be asked for comment during such a period is outrageous.
  My regard for the media which is at best low diminished significantly when i read the OC’s statements.
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:06am
- 7kiwi11
  
  There’s nothing private about a private group on Facebook!
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:12am
  - Swifty
    
    I can assure you it is regarded as private for the women members and group founders alike and breaches of that privacy is taken very seriously.
    
    I see too, as I mentioned, that the reporter clearly now regrets her actions, hence the apology and update of the article to remove poster names.
    
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    September 28, 2021 10:50am
    - Sacha
      
      I belong to several Private FB groups. Conditions of membership are clearly stated on theme page. They are all small groups, and all members are vigilant about new member applications. So far, none have had ‘leaks’.
      
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      September 28, 2021 4:18pm
- 70andstilllearning
  
  Under any normal standards of professionalism she should be let go on the grounds of gross negligence for failing to fully disclose her membership application intent to the group which could/would result in reputational damage to the employer following publication non consented of private information.
  
  Problem is that I doubt that herald ( or any other MSM for that matter) know/care about the meaning/concept of “gross negligence “- “full disclosure”. Not in their DNA!
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:26am
- Tony Stuart
  
  It’s gutter journalism, plain and simple, just like the tabloids in the UK were criticised for a few years ago. The Herald these days is tabloid both in size and in content.
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:32am
  - kowtow
    
    You are all being very polite , with very few exceptions , they are scummy bastards.
    
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    September 28, 2021 11:44am
Flossie

I am seriously concerned about using a mask, which luckily I’ve only had to do for relatively short periods. But how can it not be harmful to keep breathing in air that I’ve just exhaled? On the occasions I have used a mask I have after removing it found my throat and mouth are extremely dry and even sore. Can’t be good for health can it?
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September 28, 2021 9:33am
- krazykiwi
  
  Here’s a mask information goldmine. You’re welcome 🙂
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:32am
curry4me

https://www.bitchute.com/video/Cst1btc8gbA/

Why the AZ Audit Changes Everything!

The results of the AZ audit are out, and despite a massive propaganda campaign by the mainstream media, calls to decertify the election are escalating across the nation! In this video, we’re going to take a look at the results of the audit, we’re going to see what President Trump had to say about the results, and stick with me to the very end of this video where I’ll reveal why elections will never be the same as a result. [12:16]
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September 28, 2021 9:47am
- UrbanNeocolonialist
  
  Yeah the audit showed there were a huge number of dodgy votes counted, 50k at least in Maricopa alone (Biden ‘won’ by ~11k), people not eligible for voting, voted multiple times, moved out of region, dead, not citizens etc. But by their nature once dodgy ballots are accepted into the system through gaping security holes (mostly mail in ballots) that were intentionally created by democrat officials and clearly exploited in a massive coordinated way there is no way of tracking who they come from. So post election you can’t tell if they are Biden or Trump votes, all you know (from examining ballot envelopes and records of who voted and comparing them to other databases of where people live or door knocking to see if they actually exist) is that a large percentage of votes in the pile are illegal.
  
  The only conclusion possible is that there is no proof Biden won, or that Trump won either for that matter. The huge efforts that Democrats have been making to hide the fraud by preventing examination and the allegiances of the people responsible for enabling the insertion of large numbers of dodgy votes and fake voters on rolls in the first place as a means to allow them to cheat make it highly likely Trump did win. But from a legal levels of proof standpoint the result is indeterminate.
  
  The realistic best that can happen is that system is cleaned up to prevent this sort of fraud being perpetrated again. Rebuild voter roles from scratch, Voter ID, hand counting and in-person voting only.
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:32am
- All_on_Red
  
  Sorry, but it changes very little.
  Sure, Biden only won AZ by 10,000 votes(?) and there are 57,000 votes which look dubious but I doubt the result will be overturned and even if it is, Trump needs two more States to turn. Like Georgia and Pennsylvania and even if they do- then the Election still wouldn’t be overturned.
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:43am
  - Ed Snack
    
    Once certified I don’t think there is a legal method to overturn the election regardless of what may or may not be uncovered.
    
    There is though one entirely legal and effective way that Trump could become president almost immediately. Won’t happen of course, but could in some possible world.
    
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    September 28, 2021 1:10pm
curry4me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45_KNhwg1k4&t=66s

What If AZ Audit Shows Trump Won?

With the Arizona audit finally winding down, the question on everyone’s mind is: what if Trump won? That’s what we’re going to be answering in this video! Even leftwing news sites are asking this question, and we’re going to take a look at how they’re answering it, you’re going to have an opportunity to comment and let us know what you think, and stick around to the end of the video where I give you the number one thing we’ll see if the Arizona audit favors Trump. [10:28]
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September 28, 2021 9:47am
- dcrane
  
  MSM are in full court press to suggest nothing came of that audit, but it sure looks like a heck of a lot of possible duplicate votes, ghost voters, invalid votes from people who moved before the election, unverifiable ballot images, and evidence of internet-connected voting systems (claimed to be otherwise)…and more. And the government wouldn’t cooperate with several of the requirements of the Senate subpoenas.
  
  It’s not at all clear that the potentially bad votes supported Biden more than Trump, but at some level that’s beside the point.
  
  AZ, GA, WI, PA, and probably MI should have forensic audits plus full canvasses. The 2020 election is exuding a bad odour.
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:23am
  - waripori
    
    The Maricopa audit conducted by Cyber Ninjas was a joke from the beginning and posting nonsense about it after the results are in does not change that.
    
    This from The Hill which is reasonably fair with a slight GOP bias.
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/573888-five-takeaways-from-the-arizonas-audit-results
    
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    September 28, 2021 12:36pm
    - dcrane
      
      Remember that The Hill is part of the political establishment which has proven itself capable of pushing known disproven propaganda like Russiagate for years in order to oppose Trump, and the audits are viewed by the establishment as a path to re-legitimizing Trump. Thus skepticism is warranted when reading their coverage.
      
      I read the whole audit document, and based on what I saw calling the whole operation a joke is a sign of a biased agenda.
      
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      September 28, 2021 2:49pm
ABS4EVA

How are we All SHEEP LOVERS

Australia Attempts to defend itself

JACINDA Attempts to STOP THAT

Be Kind to one Another

Be Sheep VOTE LABOUR
Ba Ba Baaa Baa Baa
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September 28, 2021 10:14am
Jibber NO Jabber

? I need oxygen, I’m dying here…
https://twitter.com/Shane58637790/status/1442581114913054726

?
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September 28, 2021 10:23am
Yvette

Brian Tamaki video catches eye of Facebook
In the video – pulled quickly by Facebook – the Destiny Church leader made offensive remarks about Sharia law
A video posted by controversial Destiny Church leader Brian Tamaki was investigated by police and pulled by Facebook in the aftermath of the Lynnmall terror attack.
It’s not the first time Tamaki’s social media has come under scrutiny.
Following the Christchurch mosque terror attacks Facebook took down a post in which Tamaki, a fundamentalist Christian, described Islam as a “fast creeping social invasion’’. [probably a very concise summation of eco-facist Tarrant’s entire manifesto on the Great Replacement, not so much Islamic, as by over-reproducing “invaders”]

Police received a complaint about Tamaki’s video, which was posted on Sunday, September 5 – two days after the terror attack [in which Samsudeen, a Tamil Muslim, injured seven people when he used a knife from the Countdown supermarket in LynnMall].

A police spokesperson told Newsroom the contents of the video were reviewed and “while many of the comments made were factually wrong and very hurtful to many, there was no criminal offence identified’’.
Police had been in the process of having the video taken down, but Facebook stepped in and proactively removed it first.
It’s understood the video was removed on the same day it was posted.
Facebook transparency policies define hate speech as “a direct attack against people – rather than concepts or institutions on the basis of what we call protected characteristics’’.
Those characteristics are race, ethnicity, national origin, disability, religious affiliation, caste, sexual orientation, sex, gender identity and serious disease.
“We define attacks as violent or dehumanising speech, harmful stereotypes, statements of inferiority, expressions of contempt, disgust or dismissal, cursing and calls for exclusion or segregation,’’ according to Facebook.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/brian-tamaki-video-catches-eye-of-facebook

Instead of saying “When you see it, you know it,” why does Ardern not consider Facebook’s definition of “a direct attack against people – rather than concepts or institutions …”?

And from the same link above – The minister responsible for the Security Intelligence Service, Andrew Little, told Newsroom on Friday that agencies, including police, were always looking out for threats. “There are a lot of people who will say things, express conspiracy theories and what have you, to which are difficult to intervene in on a lawful basis,’’ he said. – Little seems fully in support of “hate speech” legislation, which he formerly was handling, while Robertson may contradict Little a little –
Deputy Prime Minister Grant Robertson told Newsroom there were a number of new protocols and tools available and used between the police and social media companies as a result of the Christchurch mosque attacks. – which suggests “hate speech” is being handled, although it may be nice to know exactly how.
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September 28, 2021 10:27am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Muslims still have to explain their adherence to the Koran and how that is consonant with peace.
  
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  September 28, 2021 5:38pm
Brian McDonald

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Snuck to the bottom as a lot of bird droppings at 8am. Anyway as I said yesterday JK fired one across the bows of dear Judith:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/simon-wilson-sir-john-key-the-smiling-assassin-is-back/4S7ISJNUWRLH3EVSCMPZEWE4OU/
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September 28, 2021 10:43am
- All_on_Red
  
  Only someone “Monumentally Stupid” would consider Simon Wilson to be anything other than a Partisan Hack.
  Lol
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:45am
  - MCos
    
    Perhaps you could comment on the message rather than bashing the messenger.
    
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    September 28, 2021 12:52pm
Stu2

The Doherty Institute has done the covid modelling in Australia that is behind their opening up planning. NSW is liberalising when 70% of those eligible are doubled dosed, then again at 80%.

But here the Hendy model suggests 80% isn’t enough, and has dire consequences.

.
What is Doherty predicting?

Their August report was based on 30 cases a day across the australian community, The prediction was :

“In the COVID-19 modelling, opening up at 70% vaccine coverage of the adult population with partial public health measures, we predict 385,983 symptomatic cases and 1,457 deaths over six months. With optimal public health measures (and no lockdowns), this can be significantly reduced to 2,737 infections and 13 deaths.”

.
A revised version came out in Sept based on far higher community cases, due to the situations in Victoria and NSW:

“The new results show that if a state or territory has high caseloads when it reaches 70% coverage, cases could still grow quickly at this level of restrictions, leading to a much larger outbreak.”

The three ranges of daily cases modelled are:
“The modelling consortium considered three levels of case numbers at the time of transition to Phase B – low (tens, approximately 10-100), medium (hundreds approximately, 300-1000) and high (thousands, approximately 1,000-4,500) infections.”

“In the majority of cases the model’s conclusions were unchanged, with one important exception. If transitioning to Phase B at the 70% coverage threshold, seeding of thousands of infections in the context of partial effective TTIQ, with only baseline public health and social measures (PHSMs), resulted in earlier and larger outbreaks. While vaccine rollout continued throughout all the simulations, in the time window between 70% and 80% coverage, the epidemic was still growing from thousands to tens of thousands. As coverage increased beyond 80% coverage, the epidemic came under control. But starting from a point this high led to more cases overall.

Much less impact on the overall size of epidemics was observed when these seeding scenarios (tens, hundreds, thousands) were introduced from the 80% coverage timepoint. It is therefore recommended that case numbers continue to be strongly suppressed through Phase B until 80% coverage is reached.”

.
So all go at 80%, whereas we are being told we need far more. And their outbreaks dwarf Auckland.

These extracts are from two short very readable press releases. if you are interested:

August
https://www.doherty.edu.au/news-events/news/statement-on-the-doherty-institute-modelling

Sept
https://www.doherty.edu.au/news-events/news/doherty-institute-modelling-report-for-national-cabinet-sep-18
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September 28, 2021 10:48am
- Stu2
  
  TTIQ=test, trace, isolate and quarantine
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:55am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Max. test replication 25X.
    Also requires informed consent each time. (WHO)
    
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    September 28, 2021 5:41pm
- dcrane
  
  And Norway is dropping all restructions now, with only 67 percent fully vaccinated. (Not sure if that’s 67% including children.)
  
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/covid-19/452333/norway-drops-all-covid-19-restrictions
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:17am
Tauhei Notts

Hey! I just got an email, and it looks genuine, from the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment about “Making Businesses More Successful. It is about teaching me digital skills in Te Reo.
I wrote back telling them that they were ahead of their time. The email should have been sent on the first day of the 2023 financial year. Preferably before midday.
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September 28, 2021 10:52am
- Jack5
  
  That whole Ministry is a crock, a swelling bureaucracy of theorists, analysts, consultants, and social-science academics looking for a magic formula to grow business. And, of course, frittering away time in Maori rituals.
  
  Government just needs to get the fuck out of the way and lower the tax and national debt burdens.
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:02am
  - Tauhei Notts
    
    There is something pernicious happening in our civil service. I just got a note telling me that between 6th and 8th September the Inland Revenue Department sent 43,000 letters to the wrong address.
    No, not 43. Not 430. Not 4300.
    
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    September 28, 2021 5:00pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  Having taught digital skills I looked carefully at the presentation. Pidgin Maori prevails. An occasional English word among a sea of garbage. Maori in its attempt to re-invent itself hasn’t succeeded. There appear to be different schools of grammar. Why are taxpayers being subjected to this? Next it will be coding in RPGII or APL with the govt paying tribal courseware developers $5M/module.
  
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  September 28, 2021 12:35pm
Yvette

It looks fine, is chock-a-block full of politically-correct Maori, but how correct is it in itself –
Allegation Climate Commission ignored own advice on cutting synthetic nitrogen
Greeneace – claims it unearthed a “hidden” report by the Commission — Eliminating synthetic nitrogen fertiliser on dairy farms — which showed New Zealand could allegedly achieve signficant reductions in greenhouse gas emissions if it eliminated synthetic nitrogen fertiliser.

… Greenpeace says the report quoted a 2020 study by Journeaux et al, who found potential emissions reductions of between 10 to 31 per cent from eliminating synthetic nitrogen, depending on the region.

… synthetic nitrogen fertiliser is not good for the environment.
When it is used, it directly causes nitrous oxide emissions. This is the gas which is 298 times worse for the climate than carbon dioxide.
… It travels underground, polluting aquifers and rivers, leading to health concerns and the degradation of freshwater.
… More grass means more food, which means more cows, along with their urine and burps.
Essentially, more nitrogen pollution getting into New Zealand’s waterways and more methane and nitrous oxide being released into the atmosphere.
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/allegation-climate-commission-ignored-own-advice-cutting-synthetic-nitrogen this morning

And –
Climate Emergency – Major legal challenge against Climate Commission
A coalition of more than 300 lawyers has filed suit against the Climate Change Commission and Climate Minister James Shaw in the High Court.

They allege the commission’s recommended emissions budgets and advice on strengthening New Zealand’s Paris Agreement target are not consistent with the international climate pact, the Zero Carbon Act or limiting global warming to 1.5 degrees above preindustrial levels.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/major-legal-challenge-against-climate-commission updated July 3, 2021

As mentioned a few days ago, this Climate Commission’s Report: Ināia tonu nei: a low emissions future for Aotearoa is 402 pages, but probably about 200 without the Maori cultural appropriation, which, if the report is not that accurate, will in fact besmirch te reo, tikanga and te Ao Maori.
It seems the Climate Commission should have concentrated more on accuracy than a politically correct presentation of cultural appropriation.

It seems one should even question their Disclosure statement:
As anticipated by the appointment criteria, the Climate Change Commissioners come from varying fields such as adaptation, agriculture, economics, te ao Māori and the Māori-Crown relationship.
While a number of board members continue to hold roles within these fields, our advice is independent and evidence-based.
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September 28, 2021 11:01am
- mikenmildagain
  
  You mentioned this the other day. I’m sure all Kiwibloggers share your sentiment that the government must act aggressively, now, to meet our international commitments to reduce carbon emissions.
  
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  September 28, 2021 5:01pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Waste of time and money. The WEF may require you to have carbon credits loaded onto your Covid/Good conduct Passport.
    However when all that nonsense is over the world will have ample cheap green energy for the future. New sources are being reported daily.
    
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    September 28, 2021 5:50pm
Handyman

The three waters scheme (why does that name sound like it is translation of Chinese?) and the bipartite health system follow on from the example of Auckland super city. Ignore if the city is better or worse; the point is that it allows the central command to tax people who didn’t vote for you and give to people who did. Previously debt free Auckland City is now providing a disproportionate tax to the central pool and received none of the regional funded projects.

The health system and water system is for the same purpose. To get good health or water in the future you will need to vote for Labour. Hospitals in National areas will find themselves run down in favour of spending in Labour areas. Just think of the roads that were cancelled recently. BOP, Papakura (think who the MPs are there).
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September 28, 2021 11:02am
Benedict Yu

Just caught up that there is a petrol distribution crisis in the UK.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/behave-normally-uk-transport-minister-tells-britons-queuing-fuel-2021-09-26/

A reminder that modern societies rely on petroleum and any shortage panics the populace.

And yet at the same time fossil fuels are considered so ‘evil’ that a funds manager in New Zealand proudly tells people that they have divested fossil fuel investments. And we have banned looking for petroleum deposits.

Crazy world.
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September 28, 2021 11:16am
- Stu2
  
  I’m wondering if European drivers did a lot of UK deliveries, pre-Brexit
  
  Another gotcha?
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:29am
  - Parnell Gun Club
    
    Not really. The UK did rely on EU drivers. The UK freight companies employed cheap foreign drivers to keep their wage costs down. Got to the point where it wasn’t viable for UK drivers to do the work so they left the industry.
    There is currently an EU-wide shortage of drivers. The problem the UK has is that they have not trained or retained their own because they didn’t need to.
    Perhaps this is more a problem caused by EU membership in the first place than Brexit.
    
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    September 28, 2021 12:05pm
    - MCos
      
      “Perhaps this is more a problem caused by EU membership in the first place than Brexit.”
      
      That’s a novel way of looking at the problem.
      Applying the same logic to NZ, foreign workers should never have been brought over here to pick fruit & the orchardists wouldn’t be having their current problems securing pickers.
      
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      September 28, 2021 12:33pm
      - kowtow
        
        No . If there wasn’t easy access to cheap exploitable labour then employers would have to pay more .
        
        That would attract workers to the industry .
        
        It’s called supply and demand.
        
        Of course one massive disruptive factor is the gubmint pays people so much to sit at home on a couch and smoke dope there is then no incentive to go and work for a living and be a useful contributing member of society.
        
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        September 28, 2021 3:06pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        So the UK should have slashed benefits before they cut themselves off from cheaper imported labour? But didn’t the Brexiteers claim that leaving the EU would mean more money for social services?
        
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        September 28, 2021 4:38pm
      - Jack5
        
        Cheaper, imported labour directs resources into high labour content industries, and this means low growth in productivity.
        
        Take robotic apple harvesting. This is being led in New Zealand by a German owned company using robotics developed by one of its subsidiaries in the United States.
        
        Labour cost pressure should be driving New Zealand growers into robotics so they can stay internationally competitive. They should be at the forefront rather than running second.
        
        I’m aware there are New Zealand moves in harvesting robotics, but they are not leading the race.
        
        Also, temporary pickers tend to become permanent settlers, as was illustrated on a TV programme on Sunday about the huge glass-houses just north of Auckland.
        
        That’s okay if it’s what this country needs. But most developed countries concentrate on attracting highly skilled migrants.
        
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        September 28, 2021 7:27pm
- kowtow
  
  I enjoy the irony of their running out of vital supplies of CO2 , at the same time they’ve invited the whole world’s elites to fly there in order to ban ……….CO2.
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:50am
  - Ehlana
    
    I thought the UK was running out of (drivers for the supply tankers for) petrol and diesel, not carbon dioxide.
    
    I’m sure people attending the climate conference will be happy to bike or walk from the airport to their hotels/venues – least they can do for Mother Earth after choking her with aviation fuel on their way over…
    
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    September 28, 2021 3:40pm
    - sooty
      
      Maybe the greens can drop-off some pushies for James Shaw at the airport and tell him to take a backpack rather than a suitcase!
      
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      September 28, 2021 5:55pm
- cmm
  
  But that’s UK who are last in the queue when the gods were handing out sense… (recently anyway).
  
  Consider their “sustainable” biomass electricity generation:
  * Chop down native forests in USA.
  * Transport logs by road to river.
  * Barge them down the river.
  * Truck them to the chipping plant.
  * Chip them.
  * Truck to cargo ships.
  * Travel by sea to UK.
  * Offload onto trucks and take to biomass plant.
  * Burn.
  * Woohoo! Sustainable clean energy!
  
  Still, Cindy probably made a few notes of ideas to try out here.
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:58am
- KevO'Brien
  
  That’s what’s happened in the UK and Europe too.
  This from Rabobank (world’s 4th largest) reflects on energy and other supply:
  https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/rabobank-supply-chain-architecture-buckling-globally
  
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  September 28, 2021 12:02pm
- MCos
  
  The shortage isn’t due to lack of the fuel itself, but the means of distribution.
  Here in NZ there was a shortage of aviation fuel a couple of years ago because someone punctured the pipe from Marsden with a digger.
  In neither case was there a shortage; it just happened to be in the wrong place.
  The UK problem was the result of Brexit turning off the spigot of foreign workers. Something our orchardists are familiar with.
  
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  September 28, 2021 12:24pm
- Okahu
  
  There is no petrol distribution crisis. Just like there is no health industry staffing crisis Benedict. There is just taking back control! Please try and keep up.
  
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  September 28, 2021 12:31pm
- Ruawai
  
  An now no refining in NZ so more at risk.
  
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  September 28, 2021 1:01pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Australia is paying huge subsidies to keep its two remaining fuel refineries. They used to have about ten.
    
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    September 28, 2021 3:10pm
    - godruelf
      
      Also as I understand it we are importing the crude to put into the refinery. The NZ crude is exported.
      
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      September 28, 2021 5:08pm
I remember when

The great Ardern advertising campaign: The media PR machine:
“Ardern farewells Dame Patsy”.
Just got me thinking.
Why wasn’t it “Dame Patsy Farewelled.”
Why isn’t anyone else in Labour doing anything.
“Ardern Closes The Border.”
“Ardern Extends Level 4 Lockdown.”
“Ardern, Ardern,Ardern,…….”
I wonder how many times Key did things rather than National.
It would be an interesting exercise to look back through the “nine long years” of National.
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September 28, 2021 11:26am
- skyblue
  
  2 Cindy’s in charge now.
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:55am
  - Paulus
    
    Wait for number one new GG Ciro and her Inauguration shortly – will be all in Maori for the first time.
    And our number two Cindy all Maorified for the occasion.
    
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    September 28, 2021 1:55pm
    - Hugh Jarse
      
      Will she sit under the Maori blanket this time to atone for the colonisers oppression ?
      
      6 1
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      September 28, 2021 3:39pm
- lifesgood
  
  Let them keep it up – familiarity breeds contempt.
  
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  September 28, 2021 4:08pm
Rusty

Why does Kiwiblog not always accept my password which I have used for the last 18 months?

It can take a while until my password is finally accepted — anyone know why?
4 2
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September 28, 2021 11:29am
- cmm
  
  Low social credit score?
  
  I never have a problem.
  
  15 1
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  September 28, 2021 11:59am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Those politicians or claimants who get the glory also get the kicks when they don’t deliver. All hui, no doi, pukerui.
  
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  September 28, 2021 12:08pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Didn’t we try to fix this typo the other day, Kev?
    I believe the saying is ‘all hui, no ~~doi~~‘doey’ (as in “all talk, no action” – much like blog comments, for example).
    As for ‘pukerui’, you possibly meant to write ‘pakaru’, meaning broken or buggered.
    Jack5 will be able to tell you its is more difficult to write in a mixture of languages than in one only.
    
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    September 28, 2021 3:29pm
- oldfella
  
  Rusty, just flash your Covid 19 vax certificate. That’ll get you accepted anywhere. /s 😉
  
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  September 28, 2021 1:28pm
Maggie Pie

Does anyone still listen to MagicTalk. Seriously?
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September 28, 2021 11:59am
- Tauhei Notts
  
  Mediaworks Investments Limited, which is a Besloten Vennoots chap, is the holding company for MagicTalk radio. Indumin Senaratne, in his opinion dated 31st May 2021, said that a material uncertainty exists that may cast significant doubt on the Group’s ability to continue as a going concern.
  The Group’s assets exceed the liabilities by $270mil, but look further and see that intangible assets total $294mil!!! That is, their net tangible asset backing is a negative sum.
  I would want cash up front before supplying an outfit that saw fit to get rid of Sean Plunket and Peter Williams. Go woke—go broke.
  
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  September 28, 2021 2:15pm
  - septic skeptic
    
    I think the cash may be coming from the government, maybe via advertising spend. It could then have been conditional on getting rid of Plunket and Williams.
    
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    September 28, 2021 4:48pm
- miltonF
  
  Not after they fired all the journalists and replaced them with activists. Might as well listen to the podium of tooth.
  
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  September 28, 2021 2:55pm
I remember when

The vaccination or lack-there-of brings up some interesting scenarios.
I have heard of farmers who have told rural suppliers they will only accept vaccinated agents on their properties.
People who have asked for the vaccination status of presenters at courses available for them to attend.
It isn’t too hard to imagine people in a group having a discussion asking any newcomers if they have been vaccinated.
Remember when getting vaccinated was going to make you safe from infection – that’s the point of vaccination.
It means whether the rest of the population is vaccinated, or not, doesn’t have to worry you.
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September 28, 2021 12:39pm
Cinematic

Whilst the topic of the UK’s petroleum shortage hits the headlines it’s worth reflecting on the mutterings of the doomsday cult just prior to ‘Freedom Day’.

All manner of covid hell was going to rain down on the UK. Remember that? Looks okay over there to me judging by the cheerful EPL crowds.
3 1
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September 28, 2021 12:47pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  The EPL delivers the circuses of the modern day, but Brexit appear to be unable to deliver the bread atm…
  
  3 5
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  September 28, 2021 3:01pm
Nickc2

Exposed, Maori Acquisition of Ratepayer Assets and Water by Stealth
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/gary-judd-ideological-government-indulging-sectional-political-constituency?postId=36a778bc-24da-456c-9a58-4f2f998dc160
11 2
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September 28, 2021 1:08pm
- skyblue
  
  [approved by accident. One month ban for attempting a racist slut – Mod]
  
  1 0
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  December 28, 2020 6:31pm
  - MCos
    
    [The comment has been removed. Mod.]
    
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    September 28, 2021 8:18pm
ecco

Ardern starting to change the narrative ‘ it was zero risk not zero cases’. Yeah right. Her speech writers didn’t do a very good job and she got backed into her own corner with nowhere to go. I guess she’ll be letting go of those speech writers and strategists down the track.

Narrative from her is going to change pretty soon as we head into the election lead up, which starts very early these days. I’m predicting middle of next year.
11 1
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September 28, 2021 1:13pm
- greybeard
  
  Like Bush’s change of narrative: no longer “weapons of mass destruction” but ” things which could be used to make weapons of mass destruction”.
  
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  September 28, 2021 5:59pm
ecco

MSM turning pretty feral again on John Key and any right wing articles. Didn’t take long.
10 1
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September 28, 2021 1:14pm
- lifesgood
  
  Finding Labour is on the downward slope in the polls must be pretty galling for them. he slide has begun. Hurrah!
  I find lefties to be the absolutely nastiest of people. Why is that I wonder?
  
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  September 28, 2021 4:06pm
Maggie Pie

TRENDING…

Shiny Arse appointed to the IPCA makes young Cop in Wahi wonder why he even bothers getting out of bed in the morning…..

‘Authority Chair Judge Colin Doherty rules from comfortable leather chair of his 10th floor office…..”the intoxicated argumentative man was not posing an immediate risk to the officers, and no weapon had been seen”

https://stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300417412/police-officer-who-struck-man-at-least-four-times-used-excessive-force

SHEEESH!!
12 1
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September 28, 2021 1:50pm
- Bobba Fret
  
  Wish I could be a judge. He wouldn’t get out of the car. I would be quite happy for the police to have tasered him (after two or three warnings).
  
  6 2
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  September 28, 2021 1:59pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    It’s a great shame that police officers are required to follow the law, rather than your personal inclinations…
    
    3 17
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    September 28, 2021 2:59pm
    - Maggie Pie
      
      Deep down, you KNOW Bobba is right though milky!
      It’s people like you and your ilk, that have turned this once wonderful country into a Free Range Asylum.
      
      12 2
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      September 28, 2021 5:15pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        So, what are you going to do about it?
        
        1 3
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        September 28, 2021 5:19pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

From my FB.
Take note all expert advisors to Jaspinda. We are on your case.
The is SCIENCE, and then there is $CIENCE
8 2
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September 28, 2021 2:08pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Which of those politicians said, in respect of freshwater ecology, that one could “always find a different scientist to say something else”?
  
  3 9
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  September 28, 2021 2:57pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    You did Mike, you are a politician right?
    
    2 4
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    September 28, 2021 3:29pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      I’ll look up the quote.
      
      2 2
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      September 28, 2021 3:49pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Ah, found it:
      
      Prime Minister John Key has defended the credibility of New Zealand’s clean, green image, maintaining the country is “100 per cent pure”.
      Mr Key was responding to BBC Hardtalk reporter Stephen Sackur, who suggested the country’s slogan is no longer true.
      “Dr Mike Joy, of Massey University, a leader environmental scientist in your country, just the other day said ‘we are delusional about how clean and green we are’,” Mr Sackur said.
      He cited Mr Joy’s research, which found half of the lakes and 90 per cent of lowland rivers in New Zealand are polluted.
      Mr Key, who is also the Minister of Tourism, said he does not share Mr Joy’s view.
      “He’s one academic and, like lawyers, I could provide you others who would give a counter view,” he said.
      
      Sorry for my very loose paraphrase – it was ten years ago.
      
      4 12
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      September 28, 2021 3:54pm
RW Capitalist

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300417494/pfizer-rebuts-john-keys-vaccine-payment-claim
Lack of self awareness by the msm?
This attack on John Key’s assessment of the roll out, actually points out the lie of the speedy roll out stated by this clown car govt.
I means they could not have sped it up, while all the time claiming we would be first.
So either JK is correct and the deliberately failed to speed it up.
or
They lied about the number of vaccines and speed of vaccination.
Given these lies…..can we trust the numbers, they are giving us now.
Considering, according to them, vaccination will stamp out this latest outbreak, BUT….isn’t.
9 4
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September 28, 2021 3:19pm
- RW Capitalist
  
  The biggest “misinformation” about the vaccines, seem to be coming from the Govt.
  
  8 3
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  September 28, 2021 3:21pm
- virtualmark
  
  The government had no control over delivery dates.
  
  We were never at the “front of the queue”, and Pfizer made that clear from the outset.
  
  Pfizer allocated global deliveries in Oct/Nov, on the basis of clinical need. In Oct/Nov our hermit kingdom was smugly going to rugby games and concerts, while other countries had people dying in hospital corridors. Pfizer made rational decisions.
  
  I don’t know how or why Chippie thought we were at the “front of the queue”. But him saying that set them up for problems.
  
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  September 28, 2021 5:51pm
- dcrane
  
  Which brings up the question of who thought it was a good idea to put all of our eggs in that one basket? There were other vaccines…
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:34pm
  - virtualmark
    
    You’ll note that we’ve ordered 4 vaccines.
    
    We ordered them before even the initial results from Phase III trials were in. At the time it was reasonable to expect at least 1 of the 4 would fall by the wayside.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:52pm
NoFax

24,710 people were vaccinated yesterday; 8,182 first dose. It is very clear that the appetite for vaccines is dropping and dropping quickly. We won’t get to 90% anytime soon and probably never.

It also seems that we will have restrictions permanently – vaccine passport starting early November and new MIQ spaces announced for December.

Remember, this ends when we want it to end.
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September 28, 2021 3:28pm
- Stu2
  
  How did you figure that out ?
  
  40,706 on MoH
  
  https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-vaccine-data
  
  3 0
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  September 28, 2021 4:21pm
  - WaveyDavey
    
    Sunday’s vaccination number
    
    0 0
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    September 28, 2021 5:09pm
  - WaveyDavey
    
    What’s looking increasingly disturbing is the first diagram in that link
    
    “Eligible vaccinated or booked %”
    
    This has been stuck at 80%ish for quite a while now. Interestingly the Herald has chosen to remove the bookings info from the 90% graphic that they use on their front page
    
    Also as the 5-12yo cohort numbers c.750,000 that 80% will fall to 69% immediately they begin to be counted
    
    Apocryphally I can tell you that most parents of young children that I know are more than happy to be vaccinated but are far more resistant to the idea of having their kids jabbed
    
    We’re clearly hitting the wall: low 80s now and low 70s with the kiddies
    
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    September 28, 2021 5:20pm
    - Stu2
      
      Yep, single doses plus bookings are staying at 80% as you said. Looks like we will get into the 80s but not the 90s.
      
      But the aussie modellers think 80% of those eligible is enough to open up with good results.
      
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      September 28, 2021 7:39pm
- virtualmark
  
  You’re looking at the figures for Sunday.
  
  Each week Sunday is (sensibly) the lowest vaccination volume.
  
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  September 28, 2021 5:52pm
  - Stu2
    
    40k on a weekday is low, looks like the rolling average is going to take quite a dive when the weekly numbers come out on Wednesday.
    
    At least we look like getting to 80%, many countries haven’t.
    
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    September 28, 2021 7:41pm
- NoFax
  
  Oversight on my part. Normally, they update the figures at 2pm and I must have got in too early. However, 40k is still way down that what it was and the rest of my points stand.
  
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  September 28, 2021 11:08pm
Klondike

Hey Faafoi, can I also force the banks into arbitration to cut my interest rate when tenants don’t pay the rent and I can’t afford the interest payment ? And what about councils can we do a class action to demand a rebate on rates paid for buildings that are forced closed ? https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/landlords-to-face-arbitration-if-they-cannot-agree-rent-deals-with-tenants-hit-by-covid-restrictions/IRGLJVUDUYTXM64ZOWZGJBZHA4/
10 1
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September 28, 2021 3:46pm
- Prince
  
  Wgton rates up 14.5%.
  State house insurances up 35% (that is not a misprint).
  Can I seek arbitration given my fixed income ?
  
  1 0
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  September 28, 2021 5:36pm
- ecco
  
  Was to be predicted. Pretty gutless response from Ardern and co. But about par for the course. They push everything on business owners so Ardern doesn’t lose any votes mandating anything.
  
  Unfortuately none of the people who vote for Ardern would really care less about this knee jerk law. Doesn’t infringe on their lives so they will continue to vote for her. As long as they are getting their wage subsidy/dole/civil servant salary they are all good. That’s all they care about, not whether the economy and businesses are cratering.
  
  Anyway lots of avenues for National and Act to reverse all these laws, not to mention all the race based policies being slipped through under the radar at the moment by Labour.
  
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  September 28, 2021 6:15pm
Nickc2

Just when you least suspect it, Faafoi lets the cat among the pigeons
Commercial rents are now under Govt control. Faafoi has anounced ‘changes are set to be introduced into Parliament and come into force today, irrespective of when the legislation is passed.’
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/landlords-to-face-arbitration-if-they-cannot-agree-rent-deals-with-tenants-hit-by-covid-restrictions/IRGLJVUDUYTXM64ZOWZGJBZHA4/
No doubt this is all legal??
Will residential rentals be the next cab off the rank?
To all of you who voted for Socialism/Communism, you’re no doubt on a high?
14 3
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September 28, 2021 3:49pm
- Inandout
  
  Nick, Bob Jones is a commercial landlord.
  
  5 1
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  September 28, 2021 4:45pm
- WaveyDavey
  
  Commercial today, residential tomorrow?
  
  7 1
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  September 28, 2021 5:01pm
  - Nickc2
    
    I see the Socialist/Communists are already on another downtick crusade.
    
    2 2
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    September 28, 2021 5:14pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  Perhaps it may be better to hand NZ over to Waikato after all.
  
  This govt has no sense of law or justice and believes it carries a big mere to slice everyone off at the neck that displeases it.
  
  The introduction of the amendments to the Property law Act without warning should have had the Attorney General in a fit.
  
  2 1
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  September 28, 2021 6:11pm
RW Capitalist

MIQ….
https://www.livingbiginatinyhouse.com/tiny-house-tours/15k-shipping-container-home/
1000 of these put on military bases.
Definitely cheaper and better than what they have now.
4 2
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September 28, 2021 4:21pm
- dcrane
  
  No, please no permanent MIQ facilities – these will be a solution in search of a problem once the pandemic recedes.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:26pm
Warren

I am interested in the Prime Ministers honesty and whether the new isolation rules for business leaders traveling back to New Zealand from overseas business dealings will be the only ones in this trial beginning late October until late December or has the Green Party Leader
James Shaw and his entourage traveling to the Climate Change Conference from 7th of October until 12th of October likely to get the same treatment after he would not appear in Parliament because of Covid, but is prepared to travel to Scotland who has many more cases of Covid than New Zealand has.
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/up-150-double-jabbed-kiwi-business-people-trial-self-isolation
Will it be the same as usual from the Labour Government rule for some and different rules for others or will Jacinda Ardern show some guts and not allow any privileges.
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September 28, 2021 5:01pm
- Stu2
  
  Probably an excellent idea to have a few politicans in the trial, as they will be able to provide robust feedback on how well it hangs together.
  
  And direct to the top. No filtering, no watering down, no minimising any under-performance.
  
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  September 28, 2021 7:33pm
Okahu

[It has always been possible to apply for auto-posting rights, and is only with the blog host’s approval. There are a number of posters who who are consented this right. Posting past numbers of deleted non-complying and sarcastic comments tends to reduce the chance of approval, as does not understanding the necessity for moderation. Mod.]
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September 28, 2021 5:14pm
Liberal Cliche

Harvard Business School moves classes online as #COVID19 “breakthrough” cases soar despite a 95% vaccination rate among students and staff.

“My Medicine wont work unless you takes yours”

When all the clot shots fill up the hospitals me and my pure blood natural antibody strong bros will put a special barby on and indulge in a night full of laughing at you. Might even theme it as a face nappy barby with real nappies. Or invent a new shotglass cocktail and call it “have you had your 9th booster yet sucker”

2022 is going to lit, i predict mega narrative collapse.
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September 28, 2021 5:17pm
info@cruzpro.com

Received a disturbing email from one of our Chinese suppliers saying that many provinces in China are starting to ration power. It said some factories are closing while others are only operating a few days a week. I checked this out on Google and it appears to be true.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3150315/china-electricity-shortage-industrial-production-grinds-halt&ved=2ahUKEwjAtMjd5aDzAhWXcn0KHX6DAK8QFnoECBAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2tXRilGGwKC6SEZl1JvXQ_&cshid=1632802365114

Looks like prices will rise as shortages start to occur.
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September 28, 2021 5:17pm
- Master Mariner
  
  Yep, Mainly due to shortage of Coal I believe.
  
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  September 29, 2021 7:33am
Prince

Interesting article on Stuff about two different judicial view of the Mob’s drug rehab programme.
Generally comes down in favour of the judge who believes the program has merit.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/126505557/judges-sentencing-gang-members-take-starkly-different-views-of-mobled-rehab-programme

However, it leaves some crucial facts out of the views of the Hawkes Bay judge who was not a fan.
Namely that the drug tests were self-reporting.
In the words of the judge…

‘(Defendant lawyer) Dixon said Tipu had clearly benefited from the course because he had returned negative drug tests while attending it.
The tests were carried out internally. Just one of Tipu’s test results was shared with his probation officer.
“Self-reporting drug-testing?” the judge said.
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September 28, 2021 5:52pm
- fernglas
  
  As to the Judges’ assessments, I would go with Collins, who has been on the ground in the Hawke’s Bay for most of his life, over that of Gwyn, whose background is as a Wellington bureaucrat.
  
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  September 28, 2021 7:48pm
fernglas

26,700 New Zealanders trying to get 3,800 MIQ spots, and your Government is trialling a scheme for 150 specially chosen business people at the end of October? Thanks, Aotearoa, always good for a laugh when I wake up.
A month more to sort out a QR code based “passport” when Europe has had it for 6 months, and would probably give you the technology if asked? Slapping the thigh!!!
An unstated vaccine target which your national daily newspaper has had to set at a clearly unobtainable 90%? Woo-hoo!!!
And a tentative border opening some time next YEAR???
Good on you, team of 5 million. You certainly are leading the world again.
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September 28, 2021 7:58pm
- dcrane
  
  Any “border opening” that still has MIQ is really still a closed border.
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:23pm
dcrane

Here’s an opinion article bemoaning the slowing rate of new vaccinations that searches high and low for solutions but never once mentions that some aren’t getting vaccinated because they don’t believe the country will open up anytime soon.

Set a date certain to open the border properly. We should be able to do 1 January, especially if we get started right now bulking up the hospital system.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300418083/covid19-nz-vaccinations-are-hitting-a-wall-and-the-government-needed-a-plan-for-this-yesterday
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September 28, 2021 8:06pm
- fernglas
  
  So we have a classic Catch 22? People won’t get vaccinated because the border isn’t going to open, and the border isn’t going to open because people won’t get vaccinated?
  
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  September 28, 2021 8:30pm
  - dcrane
    
    Correct except for the omission of Jacinda’s agency.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:42pm
fernglas

On another topic, does anyone have a rational explanation for why rapid antigen tests are not being used at the “border” between Auckland and the rest, to determine who is safe to come and go? Ayesha Verrall, who is now Deputy Minister of Health, recommended that they be used last September, so a year ago. Has anyone heard Tova or any of the press ask her what she thinks of the failure to carry out her recommendation?
5 0
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September 28, 2021 8:10pm
- nathie
  
  Tova is too busy going through Judith Collins’ rubbish bins to have any spare time to do things like holding the government to account???
  
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  September 28, 2021 10:05pm
Maggy Wassilieff

If ever we needed evidence that the Exemption reasons for crossing Auckland’s borders are seriously FUCKED!

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/09/rotorua-dad-forced-to-choose-work-over-birth-of-triplets-after-auckland-covid-19-border-exemption-rejected.html
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September 28, 2021 8:35pm
- alex Masterley
  
  MOH/MBIE strike again.
  Those two entities have caused more angst in the past two years than any of the other departments of state in the past 100 years.
  Who ever made that decision should be outed and mocked.
  
  6 0
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  September 28, 2021 8:52pm
  - Northshoredoc
    
    Those of us who deal with the MoH on a regular basis will not be surprised by this kind of thing.
    
    Zero thought paper pusher just following non-sensical rules – NZ governmental ministries are full of them.
    
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    September 28, 2021 9:52pm
- Stu2
  
  Appalling
  
  1 0
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  September 28, 2021 9:17pm
- fernglas
  
  I thought that a father being prevented from being at a very tricky birth would be a (mental) health issue, for both parents.
  The MoH started this pandemic by completely failing to follow their own rules over exemptions, which required the High Court to point out that they were acting unlawfully. Bloomfield took this to mean that the Court was imposing new rules rather than simply requiring his bureaucrats to follow the ones already in place. It looks like the same thing is happening again.
  Here, this father should be allowed an exemption on health grounds, he should be allowed to have a rapid antigen test to show he’s not positive and he should be allowed to go. But instead some officious bureaucrat from the MoH, whose default position is always to say no, has decided he’s somehow a danger to public heath.
  You are being ruled by fools.
  
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  September 28, 2021 9:31pm
ex-golfer

Make no mistake about it – this Govt is intent on ramming through legislation that even members of its base do not support.

This exchange in Parliament today is telling:

10. RACHEL BROOKING (Labour) to the Minister of Local Government: Xiexie, Mr Speaker. Does she stand by her comments on Three Waters reforms that “Pausing the reform discussion will not help to respond to the significant challenges facing councils”; if so, why?

Hon NANAIA MAHUTA (Minister of Local Government): Xiexie, Mr Speaker. Yes, because the case for change is compelling, well understood, and needs to be addressed. Doing nothing is simply not an option. To expect a responsible Government to ignore the evidence would be simply irresponsible. The proposed reforms focus on how this country can most efficiently and effectively deliver an investment of $120 billion to $185 billion over the next 30 years to transform water outcomes for all New Zealanders. Central and local government working together would make sense so taxpayers and ratepayers get the long-term benefits of a significant step change.

So Mahuta will make the most of Labours majority vote and pass legislation that most local councils are opposing. Even the Peoples Republic of Christchurch, a Labour stronghold voted unanimously not to support the Three-Waters proposal. And Phil Goff has stated Auckland does not need such reform.

Labour has picked this battle as one they can win under the cloud of COVID hoping the average New Zealander will not notice – until its too late and the reform hits each and every ratepayer in their pocket. By then it will be too late to do anything about it.
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September 28, 2021 9:39pm

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