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December 2, 2020 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 02 December 2020

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General Debate

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mikenmildagain

China accuses Australia of war crimes with doctored photo and insults.
Scott Morrison: “The Chinese government should be totally ashamed of this post. It diminishes them in the world’s eyes. It is an absolutely outrageous and disgusting slur. Australia is seeking an apology from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and we are seeking it be removed from Twitter.”
Jacinda Ardern: “I’ve seen some of the latest discussion over what was a Twitter image. New Zealand has registered directly with Chinese authorities our concern over the use of that image. It was an unfactual post, and of course that would concern us”
Judith Collins: “It’s not something I’ve turned my mind to … The Government always needs to take an independent foreign policy”
Gerry Brownlee: While there was a “historically strong” trans-Tasman relationship, New Zealand had also developed “strong relationships with China over the years … and of course, they’re an important trading partner”.
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December 2, 2020 8:02am
- Scott
  
  Thanks for posting this Mikey.
  It shows something to me when the strongest response to a China outrage comes from Jacinda and she is “concerned”. No doubt her head is tilted and she is showing compassion and concern and that’s all that you need nowadays.
  
  But what’s with Team National?? Judith Collins – not turned my mind to, we have to be independent. I would say independent of whom? Are we independent of Australia and distancing ourselves from Australia? So we are okay with China doing this?
  And Gerry Brownlee has to take the cake. Or in his case several cakes. Strong relationship with China, important trading partner, it’s all about business, let’s move on.
  
  One can see with Labour and National the defence of Western civilisation is in less than robust hands?
  Should we look forward to our country becoming a vassal state of the People’s Republic of China?
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:34am
  - artemisia
    
    You know what they say …. Never interrupt ….
    
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    December 2, 2020 9:03am
  - Nookin
    
    Comments critical of National presuppose that the extracts quoted represent the totality of the views expressed and not just the context in which the pertinent points are made. Do you really trust the media accurately to report the responses from Collins and Brownlee when they have a chance to print selected extracts and try to make the response look insipid.
    The statements that each of them made are factually correct. I bet they said a lot more than that, however.
    
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    December 2, 2020 9:05am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      I think your faith in the national party might be misplaced. After all, their president sends fraternal greetings to the CCP, and their previous foreign affairs spokesman referred to the Xinjiang concentration camps as ‘vocational training centres’.
      Make no mistake: both of our main political parties are heavily invested in sucking up to China.
      
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      December 2, 2020 9:22am
      - Charmaine Hawke
        
        National/ Labour different wings same bird.
        
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        December 2, 2020 11:42am
      - KevO'Brien
        
        Are you game to go to Tiananmen Square and publicly rubbish China?
        
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        December 2, 2020 2:45pm
      - Jack5
        
        Kevin, that’s comparable to asking whether Churchill would have had the courage to rubbish the Nazis at a Nuremberg rally?
        
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        December 2, 2020 3:43pm
  - andrew davies
    
    Uighers anyone?
    China really does have a cheek. They point out the speck in the eyes of others whilst ignoring the planks in their eyes.
    
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    December 2, 2020 10:09am
    - Scott
      
      Andrew Davies – good biblical reference there. Nice to see. I wonder how many people got it?
      
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      December 2, 2020 12:04pm
      - hookerphil
        
        Mathew 7:5
        
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        December 2, 2020 12:42pm
- Simon
  
  Former Prime Minister Sir John Key says New Zealand’s relationship with China is critical and needs to be treated accordingly.
  
  John Key told Mike Hosking our relationship with China is incredibly important and a critical part of our economy.
  
  “That’s why as Prime Minister I went there seven times, a huge number of our ministers went there and over time every member of the political bureau came to New Zealand.”
  
  https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/sir-john-key-nzs-relationship-with-china-is-of-critical-importance/
  
  It is just so so critical. Critical.
  
  National simping so hard for the CCP. Has there ever been a lower point in NZ political history?
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:38am
  - kowtow
    
    In essence he is acknowledging that New Zealand is a vassal state of China.
    
    We go there to kowtow.
    
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    December 2, 2020 8:56am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      NZ has always been a vassal state…
      For over 100 years we grew animal protein and human cannon fodder for Mother England
      
      In the last 60 years we’ve been a vassal of the USA
      
      Times are a-changing and as China begins to stride over the world Stage, we discover that our allegiances are swinging toward the Middle Kingdom.
      
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      December 2, 2020 9:53am
      - Jack5
        
        Australia is more important to New Zealand than China is.
        
        While we export twice as much to China as to Australia, China still accounts for less than 30 per cent of New Zealand’s trade.
        
        Meanwhile, New Zealand runs on the Australian-owned and provided trading bank system; our growing companies like Xero list on the Australian Stock Exchange when they want to become internationally big; world shipping lines come to New Zealand pretty much as an adjunct to Australia; many of our professional organisations are “Australasian”; Australia is our biggest source of tourists; for defence we still co-operate strongly with Australia and lean on its links to the United States, which has marines based in Darwin; hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders live in Australia, which will come to be home to more Maori than New Zealand is.
        
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        December 2, 2020 10:29am
      - Don Beckett
        
        China is recent years has been very important to NZ, even while China under Xi Jinping was spreading its tentacles into Africa, sucking American jobs and technology, and making the Pacific islands their debtor.
        Under Jinping China has become much more aggressive militarily, much more suppressive at home and now is trying to force sovereign countries to do their bidding.
        China has become very dangerous under Xi Jinping, and we would do well to steer our business elsewhere – China already owns too much of us.
        
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        December 2, 2020 11:21am
      - Sacha
        
        Reality speaks.
        The Labour Government now speaks for New Zealanders whether we like it or not. I think Judith Collins is well advised to let it get on with it.
        In the past, Governments have been pragmatic about trading partners and that’s as it should be because if we only traded with those we whole-heartedly approved of, we’d have precious little of it.
        
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        December 2, 2020 12:07pm
      - Scott
        
        Maggy – dear oh dear. That’s very unpatriotic. Our history and our identity comes from great Britain and the gift of western civilisation we received from them.
        China is not our friend and if we become a vassal state of China heaven help us.
        
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        December 2, 2020 12:08pm
      - Crisplion
        
        Agreed Scott. Neither the UK nor the US are perfect, but I’d much rather be beholden to either those countries than to China, which increasingly meets the textbook definition of fascism – an authoritarian, all-pervasive state panopticon with strong militaristic and ethno-nationalist tendencies.
        
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        December 2, 2020 1:59pm
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        @scott
        That’s very unpatriotic.
        
        I’ve never been a great one for patriotism…
        
        Our history and our identity comes from great Britain ….Yours might, my husband’s doesn’t.
        And if I recall correctly, quite a few NZers are starting to apologise for the actions of their British forebears.
        
        Western Civilization is fine enough in bits and China seems willing to embrace much of it…. but we do ourselves no favours by closing our eyes to the achievements of peoples from the far-East.
        
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        December 2, 2020 4:15pm
      - Jack5
        
        Time to let it go, Maggy.
        
        It’s more than 300 years since the massacre of your McDonald forebears at Glencoe for declining to swear allegiance to William of Orange, king of England AND Scotland – the British sovereign.
        
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        December 2, 2020 5:46pm
  - lastmanstanding
    
    As I have posted many times New Zealand is but the South East Province of the China Communist Party and is treated as such by the CCP.
    
    Clark and Key sold out to the CCP for 20 pieces of silver. History will show both were traitors.
    
    We should have been cultivating trading arrangements with like minded democracies not with brutal regimes that commit genocide on their people.
    
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    December 2, 2020 9:27am
    - Albert_Ross
      
      Which like minded democracies do you think we haven’t got trading arrangements with?
      
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      December 2, 2020 10:07am
      - Jack5
        
        China is not the only growing international trader.
        
        Albert, the electronics-technology power of Asia stems from Taiwan. It has fuelled much of the electronics industry of China, and it is now diversifying from China.
        
        Taiwan’s biggest company, Hon Hai Precision Industry, best known as Foxconn, makes Apple and may other products.
        
        Besides being Taiwan’s biggest employer, Foxconn has 12 factories in China, the biggest with well over 200,000 workers. Hon Hai has widened production (and the international expansion continues) to factories in the United States, India, South Korea, Malaysia, Mexico, Brazil, Hungary, the Czech Republic.
        
        Taiwan Seminconductor Manufacturing Company, known usually as TSMC, is the world’s biggest maker of dedicated semiconductors, the heart of modern electronics technology. TSMC is building a $US12 billion chip factory in Arizona.
        
        In addition to the diversification of Taiwan-sourced manufacturing, Indonesia and Vietnam are evolving into industrial countries that will be potentially important trade partners for NZ.
        
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        December 2, 2020 10:53am
    - kowtow
      
      30.
      
      But your sentiment is right. We’ve been undersold .
      
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      December 2, 2020 12:51pm
    - curry4me
      
      lastmanstanding: Time to seek a FTA with a post-Brexit UK.
      
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      December 2, 2020 6:24pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Ardern is sufficiently ill advised to possibly cause all our trade with China to be disappeared. John Key knows the difference between smart and stupid.
    
    The Aussies are in a difficult situation as they sold major mineral rights to the China and are probably viewed now by China as a strategic partner who is expected to toe the Chinese line.
    We have to careful too as not to let them own to large a share of any of our assets, trade or educational facilities.
    
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    December 2, 2020 2:53pm
  - giltee
    
    Critical alright. It’s called dependence. Look at what the CCP is doing to Aussie. That’s why the CCP is making an example of Aussie. That shows the importance of reducing dependence on China. So better to try to a top buying Chinese goods. China has become so cocky and powerful because we enabled them.
    
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    December 2, 2020 6:12pm
- emmess
  
  That is an extremely disappointing comment from Judith Collins. There is nothing independent about sucking up to a tyrannical communist superpower.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:41am
  - kowtow
    
    She was the same when jacinda ‘s gun law knee jerk went to parliament . Talked about her dog license and scoffed at 250 000 potential / actual Gnat voters.
    
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    December 2, 2020 8:59am
  - IC5000
    
    Sometimes one has to swallow a few dead bats to get what one wants….
    
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    December 2, 2020 10:29am
- Justitia
  
  “In the end we will remember not the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends.” New Zealand must speak up against Chinese propaganda directed at our friends, especially doctored images that could incite people to murder.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:43am
- Justitia
  
  Has National become “a shiver looking for a spine to crawl up”? I hope not.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:45am
  - Biscuit
    
    Not taking sides, but a couple of observations:
    
    1.
    What Australia’s troops perped WERE, in effect, war crimes.
    2.
    I would imagine that Jacinda’s ‘concern’ and/or Judith’s seeming-indifference will NOT be top of the agenda at the next CCP meeting
    
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    December 2, 2020 9:04am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Yes, Australian troops have been accused of war crimes. While that is bad, the Australian government is fully entitled to protest Chinese state messages that use photoshopped images to exploit the situation for political propaganda.
      
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      December 2, 2020 9:24am
      - Paulus
        
        And China does not have Concentration Camps of vast proportion.
        I saw a small piece of the regime in action in the street with the police and a young mother in the street as they took her away, whilst in Shanghai a few years ago.
        
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        December 2, 2020 9:50am
  - Jack5
    
    National has been “taking the knee” to Beijing for years.
    
    We have former leaders like Jenny Shipley and Don Brash becoming closely involved with Chinese commercial interests in New Zealand; Maurice Williamson resigning as a Minister after intervening with the police for a Chinese constituent; and Jian Yang, brought into our Parliament as a list MP by National, and who once admitted to training Chinese spies.
    
    You can read about Jian Yang here:
    
    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/07/national-mp-jian-yang-who-admitted-to-training-chinese-spies-to-retire-from-politics.html
    
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    December 2, 2020 9:58am
- NewInoffensiveName
  
  Interesting that Jacinda’s tepit response was stronger than National’s non-response. National is every bit as captured by CCP influence as Labour.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:47am
- RW Capitalist
  
  Best diplomacy here
  Jacinda to offer QUIET support to Scott, but publicly say NOTHING.
  BUT as usual she has to fill the silence with her voice, in a desire to be seen as important on the world stage.
  NOTE: To be SEEN as important, not actually be important.
  Note to Jacinda …stay out of arguments that you so obviously don’t understand and can only harm our position with your childish interference.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:48am
  - SGA
    
    Jacinda to offer QUIET support to Scott, but publicly say NOTHING.
    
    And what form would that take? “Scott, we really don’t agree with people using photoshopped propaganda, but we won’t be publicly supporting you”. In practical terms, that’s no support at all.
    
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    December 2, 2020 9:59am
  - Jack5
    
    Nope, Ms Ardern was right to stand with Australia on this issue.
    
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    December 2, 2020 10:00am
- Surely Knott
  
  Judith Collins actually said she had not seen the image on twitter but it sounded “abhorrent”. So she has strongly condemned the image.
  
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  December 2, 2020 9:28am
- Nickc2
  
  Offensive picture has links to Auckland University. I don’t exactly know how, but here is the reference.
  https://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2020/11/history-of-the-offensive-faked-photo-published-by-chinas-foreign-ministry.html
  
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  December 2, 2020 9:33am
- MCos
  
  It’s an unusual situation all round.
  At the heart of this spat is the deteriorating China/Australian relationship & China has seized on the war crimes in Afghanistan to have a dig at Canberra.
  Morrison, rather than pointing out China’s own terrible human rights record, which would be a real red rag to a bull for his country, has gone full out in his reaction to the doctored photo.
  This makes him look good at home & takes attention away from the war crimes, which, by the sounds, were pretty appalling. Everyone knows that China are never going to back down, but they probably want other countries they are close to to be aware of Australia’s war crimes.
  NZ did the minimum required because we have trade to worry about.
  
  The Chinese told Morrison to slap his face on TV. Some Aussie I read said half of Australia would agree.
  
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  December 2, 2020 9:36am
- WaynelSexton
  
  The fact that China has an army of people living in NZ with more arriving each year, it’s probably best Jacinda stays quiet.
  
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  December 2, 2020 10:23am
  - Jack5
    
    Wayne, with India and China on the brink of war in the Himalayas, I think we can count on NZ’s newer “army of people” from India to counter the Communist Chinese.
    
    If the wave is to resume, and our falling comparative international wealth, as measured by GDP per capita, makes that questionable, we will likely have anti-Beijing Chinese refugees from Hong Kong (and perhaps some day even from technology haven Taiwan) to counter Auckkland’s pro-Beijing mob of rich communists.
    
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    December 2, 2020 10:35am
- Aunty
  
  If people are not happy with the communist party’s leadership of China and their promotion of ugly Chinese jingoism and nationalism any single one of you can take individual action. Simply by not buying Chinese made products. It’s a simple thing that can be done quietly, without fuss and without drawing too much attention. And that goes for businesses as well.
  
  In fact I would suggest to business that it is a pressing strategic imperative that they diversify their supply chains and customer base away from communist China. Trust me, you need to do this.
  
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  December 2, 2020 10:25am
  - oob
    
    It’s impossible to avoid Chinese products altogether, they’re too deeply embedded in supply chains.
    
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    December 2, 2020 11:11am
    - Aunty
      
      Do mighty oaks from little acorns grow. There is no such thing as can’t!
      
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      December 2, 2020 12:29pm
    - giltee
      
      But you can try
      
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      December 2, 2020 7:08pm
  - Sacha
    
    The trouble with diversifying the supply chain is that most of the customers will be unable to afford to buy more expensively priced goods. Our ‘good life’ is only possible because we have had an endless supply of cheap Chinese imports.
    
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    December 2, 2020 12:21pm
  - curry4me
    
    Aunty: I already have.
    
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    December 2, 2020 6:29pm
- Bevan
  
  Hey Milky, you missed this quote from Brownlee…
  
  “National shared the concern about the use of a doctored image, with foreign affairs spokesperson Gerry Brownlee describing it as “inappropriate” and not “befitting a country of China’s stature to be doing that”.
  
  “You’d have to say that the position taken by China with the publication of that doctored photo is fairly immature and in terms of international diplomacy.”
  
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/431856/new-zealand-registers-concern-with-china-over-official-s-unfactual-tweet
  
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  December 2, 2020 10:44am
freethinker

Read that VW are selling a new Electric Golf, at almost $70 K in NZ I doubt many sales despite its better range and reputation as a model. Until electric vehicles are close in price to conventional ones their sales will be minimal.
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December 2, 2020 8:03am
- Okahu
  
  Do you have any thoughts as to how Mercedes and others find a market for their cars, priced as they are, much above the cost of new cars from other manufacturers? While the new costs of fully electric cars are higher than their carbon farting brethren, plenty are being bought. Or Apple products? That must confuse you?
  And have you perhaps thought of the life costs of that VW egolf vs it’s similarly spec’d carbon farter? Fuel, maintenance, etc? Or is that outside the abilities of your free thinking?
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:39am
  - Captain Mainwaring
    
    There will always be a few rich pricks who can afford Mercedes-Benzes and electric Golfs, but they’re not in the majority.
    While you’re on about life costs have a think about the environmental cost of electric car manufacture and end of life disposal.
    The only bit we hear about is the actual running cost but when you factor everything in good old carbon farting doesn’t look so bad after all.
    
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    December 2, 2020 8:55am
    - Okahu
      
      You only hear about running costs? Not exceptional performance? Not fun to drive? Not magnificent value holding? Look up the most recent review of the Tesla X by that inveterate petrolhead Jeremy Clarkson. Highly entertaining but devastating to your position. Perhaps you and free thinker are fearful of change? Hard to explain such white knuckled grasping of canards. And rich pricks? Really?
      
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      December 2, 2020 9:20am
      - sooty
        
        Snob possing is the driver!
        
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        December 2, 2020 10:17am
      - Libertarians are right
        
        None of what you wrote has any relevance to Captain’s (entirely proven) environmental argument. The fact is that electric car manufacturers are just another environment harming business that lies (exceptionally and magnificently well) about being good for the environment.
        
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        December 2, 2020 10:25am
      - rockape
        
        Funny that Clarkson doesn’t drive an electric car then. Seems he prefers his Ford GT, v8 Land Rover, 6 litre Mercedes and aging rolls Royce. Non I can assure you are economical cars!
        
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        December 2, 2020 11:06am
      - giltee
        
        Don’t hear about how much co2 goes into the atmosphere in the production of green power and it’s limited life
        
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        December 2, 2020 7:14pm
  - freethinker
    
    My comment was in a NZ context were similar fossil fueled cars cost new $40-50k eg Honda Civic and you buy a lot of fuel and servicing for $20K. As always the market will judge and Mercedes certainly have a market but its price segment is different which is why I compared the electric Golf to similar sized/types of car.
    
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    December 2, 2020 9:59am
    - Okahu
      
      Cool. We’re still at this. Ok. How about we consider cost of ownership as over 5 years, a fair use for a new car before an upgrade. And we won’t mention you will have to buy the fastest, costliest and most expensive to repair and maintain golf to compete with the e version. Add together all your costs over those 5 years plus the difference in purchase v selling. I think you will find your rationale for carbonfarters evaporates. The market for e vehicles in the US larger and more mature than our own bears this out.
      And as to other posters talking about the cost of environmental cost of manufacturing e cars…wtf? It’s as if people think the industries that produce carbonfarters are somehow environmentally neutral! Weird. For what it’s worth, the early fear mongering about the need to replace batteries every few years has been proven to be complete tosh. The only mass produced e-car not to employ thermal battery management, the Nissan Leaf, is still finding a very handsome market in NZ despite that flaw. In part no doubt due to the second use of tired batteries as stationary powerbanks. I know, cool eh!
      And battery tech keeps on improving. Tesla have announced their next gen batteries as well as being more efficient will be cobalt free. Perhaps those who don’t post tripe as shills of the carbon sector just don’t understand that we are in the midst of a de-carbonising our society and the transport sector is a substantial part of that. Go e-cars.
      
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      December 2, 2020 3:36pm
  - Loddenthinks
    
    “Carbon farter”? that’s funny, I think you’re a brain farter.
    
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    December 2, 2020 6:48pm
- RW Capitalist
  
  I have nick name for it:
  Cart
  The VW electric golf……..cart.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:52am
CJames

I see Phil Twyford is taking leave because of his wife’s cancer. Whatever one thought of him as a Minister, our thoughts should be with him for what will be a testing time, as many of us who have been through that experience can attest to.
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December 2, 2020 8:03am
- mandk
  
  Amen to that, CJ.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:34am
- Tony Stuart
  
  Spot on CJames. I have no time for Twyford’s politics, but I wouldn’t wish cancer on anyone. I wish him, his wife and their family nothing less than a complete recovery.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:37am
- curry4me
  
  CJames: I hope she makes a full recovery.
  
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  December 2, 2020 6:32pm
Maggy Wassilieff

China is not amused.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/431900/china-surprised-nz-expressed-concern-over-falsified-photo-of-australian-soldier

I expect our politicians will have to learn how to kowtow.
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December 2, 2020 8:04am
- Maggie Pie
  
  Is our future with CHY NAAA ?
  
  Asking for a friend 😀
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:26am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    你好，Maggie Pie
    
    是
    
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    December 2, 2020 8:53am
  - Ruahine
    
    China has been Biden their time.
    
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    December 2, 2020 8:54am
    - sooty
      
      Another dose of the whau hu flu for you!
      
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      December 2, 2020 10:23am
  - cmm
    
    Diversity Denier!
    
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    December 2, 2020 2:11pm
  - curry4me
    
    Maggie Pie: It might be if Beijing Biden actually gets into the White House.
    
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    December 2, 2020 6:33pm
- Mike
  
  I’m amazed that our politicians have uttered even the timid messages that they have.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:29am
  - cmm
    
    Only from behind Ozzy skirts…
    
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    December 2, 2020 8:53am
- KevO'Brien
  
  When dealing with a large bully it can be smart not to agitate them.
  The Chinese acquired power in Aus when they got control of a substantial part of it’s mineral resources some years ago.
  NZ being good friends of Aus need to be careful not to linked by association and have our trade disappeared too. China have 288 times our population and we are less significant than an ant to them–unfortunately it doesn’t go both ways.
  The way to deal with a bully can be to smile and quietly carry on.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:30am
  - kowtow
    
    You’re right there .
    
    Peasants must know their place in the feudal manor.
    
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    December 2, 2020 9:03am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Anther advocate for a Vichy NZ…
    
    13 4
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    December 2, 2020 9:26am
  - Paulus
    
    Heard today that there are 1,500,000 people of Chinese nationality in Australia.
    
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    December 2, 2020 9:53am
    - Bevan
      
      Deleted
      
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      December 2, 2020 10:47am
  - Jack5
    
    Big populations aren’t as decisive as they were before the rise of nuclear weapons. They’re a bit like the American West’s “the Equalizer,” the Colt .45 revolver introduced in the 1860s.
    
    Regardless, China has at least twice been conquered and then ruled for centuries by wild folk from the very lightly populated bad lands on its perimeter: first, the Mongolians; second their cousins, the Manchu.
    
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    December 2, 2020 11:52am
  - BananaLlama
    
    I’m not interested in simping for an authoritarian regime.
    
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    December 2, 2020 12:04pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  And ‘China’s State Media’ turns up the heat on ScoMo….
  
  https://twitter.com/HuXijin_GT/status/1333352221673615366
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:41am
  - NoCash
    
    I see some fake Westerner accounts support China in this matter too.
    
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    December 2, 2020 8:58am
Jade Warrior

Children’s commissioner Judge Andrew Becroft has just called on the government to declare a “child poverty emergency” similar to the so-called “climate change emergency” that is due to be announced in Parliament this afternoon.

I don’t know why the Judge wasted his breath. Our Dear Leader made it a priority in her first term to reduce child poverty and if anything, the numbers suggest the problem has only got worse. Isn’t it abundantly clear to Judge Becroft that this government cannot deliver on any matters of substance? This “climate emergency” won’t result in any concrete initiatives either.

Then again – perhaps declaring “emergencies” will be the way policy will be made in the years to come. No need to do any actual policy work any more; let’s just declare something an emergency and everything will be fine.
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December 2, 2020 8:07am
- freethinker
  
  As Peter Williams on Radio Live this morning so accurately said the word Emergency means an unexpected event or series of events, so Child poverty is not unexpected its been building for years including arderns period in office when it was her main priority and which having increased validates my view she is an abject failure. Climate change is the same.
  
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  December 2, 2020 11:02am
lilman

Please,give me strength,Cindy is a joke,she wont do or say anything,shes a communist at best a socialist at worst.
She loves the fact that Govt statements are just wall paper,actions speak louder than words and we all know Labour never deliver.
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December 2, 2020 8:13am
alex Masterley

I was chatting at the round table last night with some sailing mates about the forthcomming AC and the clubs birthday bash.
One of the things mentioned was that MBIE are expecting that at some stage in February- March we will need to go to level 2 or maybe level 3 lock-down. So either MBIE think there is a covid carrier out in the public that hasnt been detected or there will be a breach of the border quarantine. If the later I hope that Digby and the responsible Minister are working on things to keep our borders secure.
It would also be nice if our transparent government would let us in on the secret.
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December 2, 2020 8:18am
- Blackbob
  
  The maths never lies, unlike politicians and experts.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:19am
- Mike
  
  MBIE would know squat.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:31am
  - fernglas
    
    It’s not an unreasonable supposition. Breaches are inevitable, as we have seen. By March we will be heading into winter (as Europe has been) and the flu season will be upon us. There will still be no vaccine. Any community spread at that time could be catastrophic, and lockdown seems to be the only tool at the Government’s disposal. I intend to be well gone by then.
    
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    December 2, 2020 9:04am
- Wayne Mapp
  
  Surely it has to be the latter (a potential future breach of quarantine). Which of course is always a risk.
  
  Covid carriers recover over time and become non infectious. Anyone out in the community who has covid now will be spreading it now, not in two months time. In short, if that was the case, a cluster would be evident before Christmas.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:35am
- Inandout
  
  alex, Jacinda would love to let you know the secret, but there will be a 30 year embargo on the reason. The sheeple are pretty compliant types but another lockdown next year will coincide with a very debt laden economy. The ‘cruising money’ that was kept in the bank attracting little interest is now near depletion. The wise amongst us will not notice a great deal of difference to our lifestyle, except the range of goods in shops will reduce. With a few exceptions, the last Black Friday sales were underwhelming with my wife noting ‘No1 Shoes’ had a ‘nothing over $50 sale’; the majority of their stock was under that price anyway. Of course work boots were excepted. When retailers can’t buy stock from overseas they reduce the bargains; that is how business works.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:42am
- JackRabbit
  
  Lockdown when there are no deaths or risk of deaths. It’s all about the infections detected by “testing”, which at worst are the asymptomatic infections, we, the informed public, knew about all along.
  
  https://stovouno.org/2020/11/12/there-is-no-covid-test-and-the-casedemic-is-a-shameless-scam/
  
  The rest of the infections occur in the Managed Quarantine Covid-19 Infection Recycling Plant.
  Shared air in hotels is crap at the best of times. Putting people there in Quarantine is a guarantee it will spread.
  
  These MIQ people have shit for brains. Even if there is no ventilation system, the shared air in the hallways, corridors, stairwells and lifts would be enough.
  
  They tell us Covid-19 is contagious but treat MIQ as if it is not. For MIQ to work, where you have all the ~~experimental rats,~~ people, in the one structure, you would need airlocks, combined with common space vacuum (to space) and nitrogen flush. Breathing other people’s air is a guarantee the Virus will spread.
  
  “Oh, you’ve come into the country. You need to stay inside one of our Covid-19 ~~incubators~~ MIQ Hotels.”
  
  MIQ = Managed Incubator Quad
  
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  December 2, 2020 9:20am
- Loddenthinks
  
  There’s another possibility – “one of the things mentioned” is complete bollocks.
  
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  December 2, 2020 6:50pm
I remember when

What is will happen to businesses that involve people on Mt Ruapehu.
Perhaps a clamber up Mt Ngauruhoe to have a peek at the crater.
How will the insurance renewals look when they come due. How likely is it that it will be business as usual. Will the business have to attend to new costs associated with new Government regulations and risk management.
When is an active volcano ever ‘not dangerous’.
Let’s look at Rotorua – should people even be living there!
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December 2, 2020 8:25am
- Mike
  
  What new regulations?
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:32am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Auckland City? Wasn’t there an eruption in the harbour about 800 years ago?
  When you walk up Queen Street aren’t you ascending a volcano? The whole city is dotted with them.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:33am
- Tony Stuart
  
  I’ve been right to the lip of the crater on White Island and peered inside. I knew it was an active volcano, I knew there was an element of risk, and I don’t know that I would do it again. However it was an experience I will never forget, and one I was grateful to have taken.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:40am
  - cas
    
    I have also been out there twice with teenage grandkids and looking back think I probably should have checked the alert level. But would that have made me cancel the trips? Probably not. There for the Grace of God……
    
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    December 2, 2020 9:17am
- Inandout
  
  Irw, if I lived in Rotorua volcanic activity would be the least of my worries. However crime and the homeless would figure highly.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:46am
- Maggie Pie
  
  Mum and Dad used to throw coins off the bridge in Whakarewarewa for the Maori Penny Divers.
  They new the Puarenga Stream was polluted, but still enjoyed watching the little kids bring them up in their mouths.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:54am
  - rockape
    
    They only do it for gold coins now. Not a joke!
    
    9 1
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    December 2, 2020 11:19am
    - Tauhei Notts
      
      Sixty years ago they only wanted white coins. Like shillings, florins and half crowns. Pennies were no good. 3d and 6d were too small.
      
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      December 2, 2020 11:49am
    - Maggie Pie
      
      I heard that was how Bishop Brian got his start in life 😀
      
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      December 2, 2020 11:52am
harvey wilson

Stuffs sudden decision to turn into a parody of a news site was an interesting one .
I suspect it will be an expensive decision too.
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December 2, 2020 8:28am
- Unity
  
  More apologies today for Maori. I wonder if Maori will ever apologise to the colonists for the many murders of farmers and their families. Oh, that’s right – it’s different. I wonder if they ever consider the many good things colonisation has done for them. I’m tired of all the negativity.
  
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  December 2, 2020 9:35am
- Paulus
  
  I have finally blocked all references and sites to anything Stuff now.
  Not even worth a Dollar.
  
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  December 2, 2020 1:48pm
I remember when

Are Kiwi Lumber taking a bit of a gamble with the new sawmill at Matawhero.
Their other mills are at Putaruru, Dannevirke and Masterton all of which offer better transport options.
Is Kiwi Lumber expecting the Gisborne to Wairoa railway line to be re-opened.
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December 2, 2020 8:31am
- CJames
  
  Didn’t the Gisborne Harbour Board or like get money from Winston’s slush fund to do up the port? I know they already have log boats going in there so not much difference to take export sawn timber out if they have a market.
  
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  December 2, 2020 12:46pm
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Yep,
    major expansion underway..
    http://www.gisborneherald.co.nz/local-news/20201102/major-upgrade-at-port/
    
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    December 2, 2020 5:43pm
Maggie Pie

Had a bit of time on my hands yesterday afternoon, so tuned into QT.
Seems leather Cowboy Hats are now de-rigueur, but someone needs to tell Shane Reti wearing V Neck Jumpers under a Suit coat went out in the 80’s.

SHEESH!!
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December 2, 2020 8:33am
- IC5000
  
  I guess a lot has changed since you hit your prime back in those days Maggie.
  
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  December 2, 2020 8:44am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    I see a Multinational Corporation has been named after your Dick.
    
    Microsoft.
    
    35 10
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    December 2, 2020 8:58am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Did your partner come up with that witticism?
      
      5 18
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      December 2, 2020 9:43am
      - Maggie Pie
        
        Well you certainly wouldn’t have.
        
        19 4
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        December 2, 2020 10:41am
    - harvey wilson
      
      Hahahaha, off to the burns ward for you pal .
      
      17 2
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      December 2, 2020 9:49am
    - IC5000
      
      Haha good one but unlike you I wasn’t actually alive when Microsoft was incorporated back in 1975.
      
      6 13
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      December 2, 2020 9:55am
      - Maggie Pie
        
        Explaining is losing 😛
        
        17 4
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        December 2, 2020 10:40am
      - IC5000
        
        Agree, that’s why Trump is explaining why he lost the election.
        
        5 4
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        December 2, 2020 12:10pm
    - SB2
      
      Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
      A useful litmus test for the amount of purile abuse allowed on KB.
      
      1 31
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      December 2, 2020 10:21am
      - Don Beckett
        
        Its not abuse – its friendly banter.
        Get a life, SB 2.
        
        20 2
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        December 2, 2020 11:31am
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        I can only assume Latin wasn’t your top subject at school, Stephie Boy.
        http://latindictionary.wikidot.com/noun:puer
        
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        December 2, 2020 12:15pm
artemisia

Well here we are in December, housing is top of the country’s agenda, and HUD has not yet managed a monthly public housing progress report since August. Yes, last monthly report is August. Is it deliberate delay, or are they still too busy working on their new letterheads and business cards.

Stay informed about our progress, housing developments, and the direction of Te Tūāpapa Kura Kāinga – Ministry of Housing and Urban Development’s public housing supply.

https://www.hud.govt.nz/community-and-public-housing/follow-our-progress/
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December 2, 2020 8:41am
- mandk
  
  And there have been no updates on the Housing Register since June this year.
  
  Most open and transparent ever.
  
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  December 2, 2020 9:15am
KH

Stuff news is a tragedy: They are proclaiming “Truth” and have seen the light.
When any media proclaims “Truth” you know they have seriously lost the plot.
So far up themselves there is no light.
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December 2, 2020 8:47am
- mandk
  
  Stuff’s new strapline:
  WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.
  
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  December 2, 2020 9:11am
- harvey wilson
  
  They employed someone from Huffington post into their management .
  Letting anyone from the likes of Vox, Salon, Huffpo or Vice into a news organisation is like letting covid into a rest home .
  The NYT spent a great deal of money poaching writers from Buzzfeed , look how that worked out for them .
  
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  December 2, 2020 9:15am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    It looks like it has worked out for them with increased profits…
    
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    December 2, 2020 9:45am
    - harvey wilson
      
      Mikey , I’m not one of your haters that automatically downvotes your every post but that was an extraordinarily facile take. Most of the increase in revenue was the Trump bump which they will surely miss soon .
      
      After he was elected they took on a few conservative staffers to try and figure out how it happened. Unfortunately internal dissent from the far left weirdos employed there that is forcing out the few conservative voices they have is going to damage them as much as the fall in readership that will follow the exit of The Donald . Read up about the Tom Cotton editorial or Bari Weiss for example and the lunacy from the anti free speech activists on the company’s slack channels.
      
      I expect Stuff to similarly circle the bowl soon.
      
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      December 2, 2020 10:42am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        All I did was point out that the NYT is doing well, financially. It certainly appears to be doing better than Trump’s ‘failing’ businesses and court challenges…
        
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        December 2, 2020 12:43pm
      - harvey wilson
        
        Like I said a incredibly facile take , the Buzzfeed cretins haven’t helped them become more profitable so why even bother mentioning their finances? Or Trumps failings for that matter ? He’s irrelevant now .
        
        Their credibility as a news organisation has certainly suffered and will continue to. As I said employing far left weirdos who are anti free speech and having management who roll over when staff say publishing an editorial makes them feel “ less safe” is not a recipe for long term success,
        
        I wonder what you’d think if Stuff employed far right loons from Breitbart or Whaleoil?
        
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        December 2, 2020 1:13pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Well, perhaps I’ll consider your opinion about the NYT’s credibility. or perhaps not.
        What outlet, or outlets, btw, do you consider the most credible on US politics?
        
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        December 2, 2020 2:06pm
  - Paulus
    
    And from News of the World similarly.
    
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    December 2, 2020 1:50pm
- graham
  
  C J Southern said on yesterday’s GD that, regardless of what he would LIKE to occur, the reality is that left/”wokeness” is gaining traction in society. I’d say all evidence is that’s correct. We all know this and see it every day.
  
  And Stuff are obviously caught up in this mood. No doubt they are full of their own self-importance and puffed up with pride at being at the forefront of leading the charge against racism, climate change deniers, bias against LGBTQI people, Donald Trump, etc, as a fearless media organisation who are the guardians of truth, honour, and democracy.
  
  Stuff, like many other MSM outlets today, see it as their duty to not merely REPORT the news and current affairs – they must GUIDE and SHAPE the discussion in the appropriate directions, and they must shut down all Thoughtcrime. One version of their “please give us your money” banner made it quite clear that they believe politicians being able to – gasp! – say and write what they want without it going through the MSM approved filters is highly dangerous and that’s why we need them to tell us what to think.
  
  Stuff are but one of the Thought Police. Seriously, we live in a society where thoughtcrime is real. You simply are not allowed to think things that are unapproved, and if you do you’re given a label – racist, transphobic, whatever – and you are “deplatformed” or “cancelled”. MSM outlets are quite openly determined to guide what we say, what we think, and are determined to censor what we are allowed to read.
  
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  December 2, 2020 10:50am
  - C J Southern
    
    Stuff – like many MSM organisations aren’t “news reporting organisations”; they’re primarily entertainment organisations.
    
    And like any entertainer they appreciate the need to deliver content that their consumers like; thus they “tell people what they want to hear” and not “what they need to know”.
    
    Attributes such as balance, accuracy, fairness, honesty, truth, integrity (etc) have long since taken a back seat to commercial self-interest.
    
    Welcome to the modern world.
    
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    December 2, 2020 4:02pm
- freethinker
  
  BBC is the same.
  
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  December 2, 2020 11:10am
- Cobolt24
  
  News organisations are meant to present the news, reflect society, not shape it
  
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  December 2, 2020 11:49am
  - C J Southern
    
    That’s a utopian ideology (unfortunately); the reality is that people don’t want to hear news that they don’t agree with.
    
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    December 2, 2020 4:05pm
Swifty

I wonder whether we’re approaching a point where much of the rest of the world joins up and declares:

1. China must sell all overseas interests to non-Chinese
2. All ‘rest of the world’ investment in China must be repatriated
3. From this point forward we will not sell a single thing to China
4. From this point forward we will not buy a single thing from China.

I argue that while it will hurt the ‘rest of the world’ it will hurt China far, far more and the mere prospect of this will make Chinese leaders pee in their panties.

China can pick us all off one by one (see Aussie) but if we all stand together they’re nothing. And can you just imagine the boost to our economies if what we currently spend with China is now shared amongst ourselves instead.

I’m no great follower of world politics but surely there comes a point where China must be put in it’s place and that the cost of continuing to do business with them is just not worth paying.
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December 2, 2020 9:10am
- Albert_Ross
  
  “Can you imagine the boost to our economies” – no, actually, I do not see a boost to our economies from your proposed approach.
  
  If you don’t buy your widget from China, you will have either to do without it or to buy from somewhere else.
  
  If doing without a widget, or buying it from somewhere else, was a better-value option – you’d already be doing it. Therefore, doing without it or buying it from somewhere else will make you worse off than buying it from China would have.
  
  What exactly do you see as the benefit that justifies that cost?
  
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  December 2, 2020 10:15am
  - Swifty
    
    Albert, to be honest I didn’t put a lot of thought into the wording of that post and I’ll try to explain things more succinctly.
    
    It seems to me that increasingly doing business with China comes with strings. Strings that don’t exist anywhere else or not anything near the same extent.
    
    Speak out against China, criticise them, and next thing they are threatening you with economic sanctions, or have actually put sanctions in place.
    
    If this continues, or worsens, then there’ll come a time when the cost of the strings outweigh the value of the commerce. What will the international community do should China intervene militarily in Taiwan, or anywhere else? Bow and scrape to China so our trade is not imperiled? I’m sure China would like it if we did. Or at some stage will we take a stand?
    
    With regard to my statement of ‘boosting our economies’ – I was referring to the prospect of companies and countries all around the world removing their manufacturing and commerce from China and doing it themselves.
    
    Just say to them ‘Fuck it, we’re not going to buy from you or sell to you a single thing’.
    
    You’re absolutely right that would come at a great cost to us, for quite some time, but the benefit would be that we we’re now free from Chinese blackmailing and coercion.
    
    Anyway, just a thought.
    
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    December 2, 2020 10:47am
- SB2
  
  ’Im no great follower of world politics…”
  
  Understatement of the year .
  
  A market of a 1000 million-plus and techologically advanced just can’t and never will be ignored .
  
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  December 2, 2020 10:48am
  - freethinker
    
    SB2 – The point is close to 1.4 Billion population is hard to contain in a harmonious way which is why Control Communism is used but even a 10% loss in Chinese exports and a similar reduction in food imports would create significant social unrest (China imports 30% of its food). I suspect the CCP would recognize this and likely adjust their attitude. The US/UK/Canada/NZ/Australia & India combined population of approx 2.7 billion are quietly putting together a economic pact with Japan and the EU likely to join as a bulwark against Chinese hegemony.
    
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    December 2, 2020 11:18am
  - Swifty
    
    SB2 – do you think your long-standing sobriquet on here; “Kiwiblog’s dumbest commentator” was well deserved?
    
    Certainly many, many other posters thought so.
    
    If not, why not?
    
    10 3
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    December 2, 2020 12:04pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Well, that is a tough competition…
      
      2 7
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      December 2, 2020 12:44pm
      - Swifty
        
        You may well say that – but even in a tough field I believe Stiffy would still emerge triumphant.
        
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        December 2, 2020 1:37pm
      - SB2
        
        Stiffy would still emerge triumphant.?
        
        Like your Islamaphobia?
        
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        December 2, 2020 2:01pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Indeed he might. I think perhaps, that because his opinions run counter to the prevailing Kiwiblog stream, he attracts more attention than, say, moronic pro-Trump or anti-science comments.
        
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        December 2, 2020 2:07pm
      - Swifty
        
        If you are referring to my post of yesterday then calling my criticism of the words that some Muslims say, the behaviours of some Muslims all, self-admittedly, in the ‘name’ of their religion – and my criticism of their foundational texts, ‘Islamophobic’ says far, far more about you Stiffy than it does me.
        
        You may think you can label and smear people, I presume, into silence but it won’t work with me.
        
        I should also think that you’re labelling my post or indeed me ‘Islamophobic’ illustrates why your sobriquet is well-deserved indeed. In fact the only dumber comment you could make is if you labelled me ‘racist’ for my post yesterday.
        
        I don’t have any ‘irrational fear’ of Islam, rather I loathe it for what it clearly is – a totalitarian political ideology, invented by men, using religion as a pretext, which has sought from the outset dominion over all others and total submission from them.
        
        And an ideology, I might add, which requires you to believe absolute and total nonsense and lies.
        
        Labelling me ‘Islamophobic’ for pointing this out makes you look a total fool.
        
        Not that I expect any of this to resonate with you in the least – as you have shown the world for many years now that you are impervious to reason or self-critique because of your numerous personality and character flaws.
        
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        December 2, 2020 2:42pm
      - Swifty
        
        You may well be right and you would be better qualified than me to assess that Mike – I admit to having scrolled past any/all climate change and Trump posts since I started here in ’08 – I’m just not interested I’m afraid.
        
        Stiffy however has repeatedly demonstrated his dimwittedness over and over and over and which he compounds by never coughing when he’s outed as clearly wrong about a matter of fact – he just runs away and starts up again elsewhere and claims victory, as I’m sure you’ve seen.
        
        He’s dishonourable and dishonest – in my mind far worse flaws than his dimness.
        
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        December 2, 2020 2:54pm
- MCos
  
  There is more chance the of rest of the world siding with China than ganging up on China.
  For that matter there is no chance of the rest of the world cooperating on anything.
  When has the rest of the world successfully ganged up on anybody?
  
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  December 2, 2020 1:58pm
  - NoCash
    
    The Allies against Hitler?
    
    That aside, I agree with you but wishful thinking is free.
    
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    December 2, 2020 2:55pm
  - NoCash
    
    Actually the Western would ganged up on China back in the 19th century with great success. The British even managed to acquire a little island called Hong Kong.
    
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    December 2, 2020 5:05pm
- curry4me
  
  Swifty: Sounds like a scenario for Cold War 2.0 Could be worse. After all, the good guys won Cold War 1.0
  
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  December 2, 2020 6:42pm
lastmanstanding

Hey Cindy. When you confiscated the guns off responsible citizens you told us it would fix gang shootings.
Yet since then gang shootings have continued apace.

Yet another of your failed policies that the dumb arses who voted for you have ignored. Both of you are pig ignorant.
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December 2, 2020 9:11am
- kowtow
  
  And that genius head of the police union thinks a gun register will prevent same .
  
  29 2
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  December 2, 2020 9:24am
- MCos
  
  “Hey Cindy. When you confiscated the guns off responsible citizens you told us it would fix gang shootings.”
  Did she say that? I don’t recall any of the 119 MPs who voted for the gun buy back law making that ambitious claim.
  Furthermore.
  The legality of the guns used by gangs are not effected by the buy back law if they were not on the list of banned weapons. Having said that they’re probably illegal on other counts.
  
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  December 2, 2020 2:37pm
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    She said something similar when talking of the Arms Legislation Bill
    
    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said the Bill was an important part of the Government trying to ensure guns were kept out of the hands of gangs and those who did not have the character to possess them.
    
    And Police Minister Nash said: the new gun laws would go hard on gangs with guns.
    
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/119655029/govt-charges-ahead-with-law-to-tackle-gangs-with-guns
    
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    December 2, 2020 4:53pm
    - sooty
      
      That worked!
      
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      December 2, 2020 9:04pm
NoCash

BBC News – US attorney general finds ‘no voter fraud that could overturn election’
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55153366

Can the Trump supporters here accept defeat now? No, I won’t hold my breath for that…
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December 2, 2020 9:13am
- burt
  
  I think you misunderstood, now the Trump supporters need to march in the streets shouting “not my president” while they refuse to accept the outcome for the next four years – or are only Democrats allowed to act that way?
  
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  December 2, 2020 9:24am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    The Trumpistas can do that, if they wish. But once they lose all of their hopeless legal challenges, I expect they will settle down to regular rallies and hefty donations to the TRUMP 2024 ~~scam~~ campaign.
    
    9 20
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    December 2, 2020 9:40am
    - freethinker
      
      Legal challenges are going quite well and as expected as both sides appeal decision they dislike so the final decision will be SCOTUS and that is a little time off yet. Don’t break out the popcorn yet SB2 and be prepared to eat some humble pie.
      
      8 9
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      December 2, 2020 11:22am
      - SB2
        
        No humble pies at all because Trump’s Attorney William Barr confirms zero widespread fraud in the 2020 election,,
        
        https://apnews.com/article/barr-no-widespread-election-fraud-b1f1488796c9a98c4b1a9061a6c7f49d
        
        LOL
        
        2 5
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        December 2, 2020 2:04pm
      - C J Southern
        
        Sigh. No. Their challenges are not “going well”.
        
        I would go so far as to say some of the rebukes from even Trump appointed judges are using unprecedented language.
        
        So many here seem to think 2 things:
        
        1. That ultimately Trump is going to be able to roll on up to SCOTUS and say “hey – I appointed you, you, and you – and you and you are republicans so give me the election please and thank you”, and
        
        2. That downvoting my comment (the digital equivalent of sticking fingers in ears and shouting CAN’T HEAR YOU” is going to make the reality disappear.
        
        Bad news on both counts I’m afraid.
        
        No “humble pie” to be eaten; Trumps fate was sealed almost 4 weeks ago. Since then NONE of their 56 suits have got them any closer to victory – nor even got them a foot in the door.
        
        All six swing states have now certified their results – on time, and as expected. The countdown continues unimpeded as it has been for the past month.
        
        4 4
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        December 2, 2020 4:20pm
    - burt
      
      Maybe we could impeach Biden with zero actual evidence and pat ourselves on the back for being so woke ?
      
      14 4
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      December 2, 2020 11:44am
- mark15
  
  Not if its come from the bbc,no.
  
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  December 2, 2020 9:26am
- Maggie Pie
  
  Joe Biden’s continued refusal to concede is extremely dangerous for democracy.
  
  24 9
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  December 2, 2020 9:26am
- fernglas
  
  If Barr has thrown the Trump campaign to the wolves, you would have to think the end is nigh.
  
  12 4
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  December 2, 2020 9:31am
- President Elect Andrei
  
  What role is assigned to the BBC in the American election under the Constitution of USA?
  
  8 7
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  December 2, 2020 9:39am
  - SB2
    
    The First Ammendment,
    
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    
    etc , etc, etc
    
    4 20
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    December 2, 2020 10:40am
    - KevO'Brien
      
      It underpins foundational action in the USA:
      https://www.scottlively.net/
      
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      December 2, 2020 3:22pm
- Libertarians are right
  
  While looking for fraud is weirdly fun (it’s basically chasing a conspiracy theory until it’s proven), it is extremely hard to prove.
  The first step is to work out how to commit the fraud, then how to cover it up, then how to prove it (if possible). This is why fraud is so hard to prove. You can know where the evidence is but none of the steps above satisfy the burden of proof to allow you access to the smoking gun (officially at least). This is why I never actually thought Trump’s challenge would work.
  
  The plus side however is that now that the vulnerabilities have been exposed they can be fixed for the future (or exploited if not).
  
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  December 2, 2020 9:54am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Fraud is tough to prove and sometimes it is only on the preponderance of circumstantial evidence does it emerge into the light.
    The present matters may be resolved indirectly by neither of the parties getting 270 votes in the Electoral College and the House having to Elect the President.
    Another possibility is that a State of Emergency (Non-Covid) will be declared and a fresh election imposed.
    
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    December 2, 2020 3:28pm
    - Brian McDonald
      
      I know your belief of widespread fraud is now over the cliff Kev, but suddenly that thin rope you’re holding is also starting to fray to the breaking point.
      
      4 3
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      December 2, 2020 4:15pm
- SB2
  
  Can the Trump supporters here accept defeat now?
  
  They’ve got no alternative ! No factual evidence.
  
  So move on Trumpeters.
  
  He might have a another go 2024 is something for you all to look forward to.
  
  But even the GOP might by then be sane enoiugh not to go down that path.
  
  Besides Trump could well be doing jail time by then.
  
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  December 2, 2020 10:31am
  - freethinker
    
    Until the hundreds of affidavits and evidence from those observing the actual counting process and the missing 47 USBs, and if the actual number of mail in ballots received does exceed those issued we will not know if or how much electoral fraud was committed. That decision rests with the courts and is still a future answer, I prefer to await that despite suspecting the amount of smoke being an indication of fire.
    
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    December 2, 2020 11:29am
    - SB2
      
      AG William Barr has found no evidence of widespread and systematic fraud.
      
      Fact
      
      https://apnews.com/article/barr-no-widespread-election-fraud-b1f1488796c9a98c4b1a9061a6c7f49d
      
      A huge blow for Trump’s attempts to overturn the result.
      
      6 11
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      December 2, 2020 12:32pm
  - Paulus
    
    After the Clintons who will be on Jail first along with Biden’s son.
    
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    December 2, 2020 1:53pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      ‘Locker up’ still a thing, along with Ben Ghazi, Butt Hunter and the Buttery Males?
      
      3 3
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      December 2, 2020 2:10pm
    - virtualmark
      
      And yet … what’s the bet that Trump will try to pardon himself, Ivanka, Jared, Don Jr and Eric.
      
      I mean they’re innocent and could never be locked up right. But they still need a pardon …
      
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      December 2, 2020 4:38pm
      - virtualmark
        
        2016: Lock her up!
        2020: Lock him up!
        2021: Pardon my kids!
        
        Trumpists … ever get the feeling you’ve been conned?
        
        1 1
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        December 2, 2020 5:18pm
      - virtualmark
        
        Might be the only time any Trump has ever used the words “Pardon me” though.
        
        2 1
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        December 2, 2020 5:20pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    What do you have to gain by being so pushy for a US president who seem to be mildly demented?
    Trump has his faults but Biden is not flawless either.
    
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    December 2, 2020 3:31pm
- Stu2
  
  Barr (the AG) is an out and out Trump loyalist. His teams would have been very thorough, and once again nothing significant has shown up.
  
  Expect more Republicans to go public to tell Trump it is over
  
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  December 2, 2020 12:20pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Barr’s loyalty is now in question.
    
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    December 2, 2020 3:32pm
    - C J Southern
      
      Telling someone the truth is not an act of disloyalty.
      
      6 2
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      December 2, 2020 4:23pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        It is in Trumpworld…
        
        3 2
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        December 2, 2020 4:44pm
      - C J Southern
        
        Sorry – I should have appended “in the real world”.
        
        2 2
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        December 2, 2020 5:12pm
  - virtualmark
    
    I think Barr is in it for Barr and for his own weird religious reasons. Trump is just a useful vehicle.
    
    I don’t think Barr is a Trump cult member like so many of you here are.
    
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    December 2, 2020 4:39pm
    - Steve Todd
      
      You’re onto it, too, vm. Barr is as despicable as his boss.
      
      See this, for example—
      https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thefreethinker/2020/11/op-ed-barrs-final-revenge/?
      
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      December 2, 2020 6:15pm
  - Steve Todd
    
    Expect more Republicans to go public to tell Trump it is over[.]
    
    You’re onto it, Stu. Check out Pablo’s view of the current situation, re Trump: http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2020/12/outliving-his-usefulness/.
    
    He is no longer useful, so the Repugs are leaving the sinking ship.
    
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    December 2, 2020 5:49pm
Maggie Pie

#TURNARDERN 😀

https://twitter.com/Coltheman1/status/1333658337536163841
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December 2, 2020 9:14am
- sooty
  
  Pecuniary interest register, maybe?
  
  10 1
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  December 2, 2020 10:33am
- SB2
  
  Maggie Pie, tweet seems like its from a sore and sour loser left over from 17/10/20.
  
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  December 2, 2020 10:34am
- freethinker
  
  Masterpiece of Photo Shop work.
  
  6 3
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  December 2, 2020 11:39am
  - HeatherW
    
    Photoshop – are you sure? Magazine cover looking very much like that in supermarket today.
    
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    December 2, 2020 9:14pm
backster

Climate emergency, Child Poverty emergency….How did Housing emergency,Homeless emergency workout.
25 2
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December 2, 2020 9:29am
President Elect Andrei

Why did hundreds of thousands of Ballots go from New York to Pennsylvania

https://youtu.be/R0xaA4dYsbQ
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December 2, 2020 10:33am
- UrbanNeocolonialist
  
  Because exit polls showed that they were needed to ensure a Biden win. Manufactured ballots are untraceable once mingled in with others so provide an easy way to ensure a win.
  
  There was enormous fuckery afoot.
  https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/whistleblowers-post-office-labeled-trump-mail-undeliverable-388-000-ballots-backdated-disappear
  
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  December 2, 2020 11:15am
- NoCash
  
  You should report it to Barr.
  
  6 2
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  December 2, 2020 11:48am
- SB2
  
  Including the myth of missing ballots
  
  AP FACT CHECK: Trump’s vote falsehoods, into day of defeat
  
  https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-ap-fact-check-joe-biden-donald-trump-virus-outbreak-79c34b72633683af195ae945503883fe
  
  Also the investigations of Trump’s own attorney general William Barr ,
  
  WASHINGTON (AP) — Attorney General William Barr said Tuesday the Justice Department has not uncovered evidence of widespread voter fraud that would change the outcome of the 2020 presidential election….”
  
  https://apnews.com/article/barr-no-widespread-election-fraud-b1f1488796c9a98c4b1a9061a6c7f49d
  
  Game , set and match!
  
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  December 2, 2020 12:25pm
- curry4me
  
  President Elect Andrei: Yeah, I saw that. Very interesting.
  
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  December 2, 2020 6:47pm
Tony Stuart

It was reported this morning that the PM’s “valedictory” for Winston Peters held last night was off limits to the media, EXCEPT for Newstalk ZB and NZME.

Is it really a good look for the PM to be picking media “winners” like that, and does she run the risk of this blowing up in her face?
31 2
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December 2, 2020 10:34am
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  Well Winston kept blowing her Government’s policies up in her face so she was probably very grateful to be rid of him.
  
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  December 2, 2020 11:14am
- virtualmark
  
  There’s no way Winston would have a shindig without Barry Soper.
  
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  December 2, 2020 4:43pm
Maggie Pie

Does anybody actually know someone that owns a ‘Great Wall Haval’ ?

LOL!!
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December 2, 2020 10:39am
- SB2
  
  Maggie Pie, a bout of Chinaphobia there.?
  
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  December 2, 2020 10:44am
  - BAM
    
    The subtle racism is fairly constant from Mrs Brown, I don’t get why the mods allow it.
    
    6 19
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    December 2, 2020 11:07am
    - Cobolt24
      
      It’s not racist to say a certain country tends to produce goods that are worse in quality, many Chinese buy goods from elsewhere due to being better. I’ve seen one Great Wall with 150,000km and the front seats were ripped and worn. I noticed the metal was flimsy too. It was an older one so perhaps their newer models are better. I notice they’re improving.
      Look at what the Japanese produce now, top quality!
      
      6 2
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      December 2, 2020 2:22pm
- freethinker
  
  Daughter has a Haval and its actually pretty good although I have suggested she changes it after 3 years.
  
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  December 2, 2020 11:41am
I remember when

Went to the Supermarket yesterday.
Are Kiwifruit regardless of whether than are red, green or gold the new gold?
Is it the first sign of RSE worker problems which started, at least partially, with the border closure.
10 2
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December 2, 2020 10:51am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Did you check where the kiwifruit was from?
  
  This is not the season for fresh kiwifruit…
  
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  December 2, 2020 11:44am
  - Jack5
    
    It’s the season for language change. Perhaps China will demand kiwifruit go back to their original name, yang tao.
    
    7 1
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    December 2, 2020 11:55am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    You can always tell the ones from China.
    NW display them sideways 😀
    
    9 7
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    December 2, 2020 12:02pm
    - Jack5
      
      That is very naughty, Maggie, and I know it’s a myth.
      
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      December 2, 2020 12:03pm
Jack5

An Israeli take on whether Trump’s final act will be to launch an attack on Iran’s nuclear facility comes from the Israeli news service, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency.

It’s about what might follow the assassination of Iran’s leading nuclear scientist, Fakhrizadeh:

“The killing comes against mounting indications that Trump and Netanyahu are thinking about striking Iran’s nuclear reactor at Natanz.”

What’s going on from an Israeli point of view:

https://www.jta.org/2020/11/30/politics/will-trump-leave-biden-a-war-in-the-middle-east-the-iran-assassination-explained?
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December 2, 2020 11:35am
hullkiwi

Yesterday, Auckland mayor Phil “Goofy” Goff confirmed the long rumoured increase of Auckland rates in the 2021/22 year. The average increase of rates will be 5%.

In his announcement Goff confirmed:
1. Auckland had a black hole forecast of $1bn;
2. That the council has had a series of workshops to review council activity/expenditure. And after all this “Goofy” proclaims proudly that “the Council will not be cutting essential services”. What are Auckland’s essential services?
3. That the rate increase is a “one-off” and thereafter will go back down to 3.5%.

Given the above, in the 3 years from the current (2020/21) to 2022/23, Auckland rates will increase on average 12.48% (compounded). What I would like to know is, what business or individual had had a 12.48% increase in their income to meet their incompetence?

On top of the above, it was also in the news that Auckland Council and Auckland Transport are currently studying congestion charging for Auckland city. This despite:
1. The regional fuel tax implemented from 1 July 2018, which has not been required for a LRT scheme that hasn’t happened; and
2. Falling use of PT because of COVID. AT has not cut any subsidised services as of this date.

We really do live in a land of “no consequences….”
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December 2, 2020 11:42am
cmm

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/australian-soldier-pictured-drinking-beer-out-of-dead-taliban-fighters-prosthetic-leg/UPFYXOW7CCIUN3NEBLOT4Y5DRM/

So a necklace made out of dried gook ears is probably out then.

FFS Why’s everyone getting so damn offended? This is just a bit of a twist on drinking out of an enemy helmet and isn’t as bad as eating their body parts.
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December 2, 2020 11:57am
Inandout

If your government is anti LBSQT then you don’t go to an orgy.
https://trends.gab.com/item/5fc6ccf8cd08475fa72e0989
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December 2, 2020 12:17pm
dcrane

CDC to recommend reduction in recommended time period for covid quarantine.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/cdc-to-release-revised-guidance-reducing-covid-19-quarantine-time-from-14-days-to-7-10
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December 2, 2020 12:19pm
kowtow

Co incidence , conspiracy ?

Climate emergency to be declared in parliament this afternoon and all major publications have front page apocalypse photo / climate story on their front pages ?

So much for a democracy that relies on an independent media .

Shameful .
13 4
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December 2, 2020 12:19pm
Maggie Pie

AMERICA TRENDING

And for all those deluded fools that still believe the election wasn’t RIGGED…

Did you know Nancy Pelosi’s chief of staff is CEO of Dominion Voting Systems and Diane Feinstein’s hubby is a major shareholder.

Hmmm…
12 11
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December 2, 2020 12:42pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Not a fan of fact checking, are you?
  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/11/20/fact-check-alleged-dominion-democrats-links-wrong-misleading/6248542002/
  
  8 11
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  December 2, 2020 12:47pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    What a load of shit mikey – did you even read it?
    
    (And hey – no need to get all snarky just because I called you out earlier.)
    
    9 8
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    December 2, 2020 1:18pm
    - SB2
      
      Maggie Pie , a sore and sour loser uncovered. and in the making.
      
      3 9
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      December 2, 2020 4:55pm
      - Maggie Pie
        
        Wouldn’t go that far SB – deep down, mikey is actually a really nice guy.
        
        4 4
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        December 2, 2020 5:33pm
- RJ
  
  What is interesting about dominion is they are currently trying to find who owns it, with suggestions prior to the election it was brought out by a China company.
  
  5 6
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  December 2, 2020 1:40pm
  - SB2
    
    RJ, desperate lad.
    
    Fake Claims About Dominion Voting Systems Do Real Damage
    Our machines have no secret ‘vote flipping’ algorithm. We have no ties to dictator Hugo Chávez.
    
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/fake-claims-about-dominion-voting-systems-do-real-damage-11606755399
    
    1 7
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    December 2, 2020 5:02pm
- C J Southern
  
  Congrats – you’re another one deliberately spreading known false information.
  
  Seriously – why bother? All it does is lower your credibility.
  
  5 4
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  December 2, 2020 5:16pm
  - Mike
    
    What credibility?
    
    1 0
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    December 2, 2020 6:47pm
Swifty

Police interrupt gang bang, Hungarian MEP leaps from window to escape.:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/ultra-conservative-mp-leaps-from-window-as-belgian-police-raid-orgy-for-breaking-covid-rules/NX4N3R6C2MNSGHK2XBTY6J4OOU/

Hahahahahaha!
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December 2, 2020 12:46pm
Maggie Pie

And no matter what anyone might say, there’s nothing could convince me this isn’t a Wig…. LOL!!

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1333904473018785794
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December 2, 2020 1:23pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Same maker as Tяump’s?
  
  5 6
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  December 2, 2020 2:01pm
Scooter

Omg is the video of Cindy accepting the Gleitsman award the most cringe worthy video everrrr??
9 3
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December 2, 2020 1:53pm
- RJ
  
  Don’t know, not stupid enough to watch it.
  
  5 3
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  December 2, 2020 3:17pm
Maggie Pie

It’s bloo sky and 24 here today.
Just lounging out by the pool listening to Magic….. laptop between the legs, KK in one hand, Coke & Milk in the other.
Shaun was saying Queenstown’s “cheap as chips” at the moment. A week in 5 star hotel for $1400. Does anyone know which one he’s talking about?

Asking for a friend.
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December 2, 2020 2:04pm
- RJ
  
  I wouldn’t worry going to Queenstown, too many Aucklanders there.
  
  5 2
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  December 2, 2020 3:16pm
cmm

I see the police dog that got shot is being lauded as a hero.

C’mon. The dog is equipment. It is designed to do what it did and basically act as a furry bullet catcher.

Calling it a hero is like saying a bulletproof vest is a hero. Ascribing heroism to its actions is emotional claptrap.
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December 2, 2020 2:16pm
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  What a joygerm you are cmm.
  
  7 3
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  December 2, 2020 3:00pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  Fab to just hear that the beautiful K9 (who Police won’t name for privacy reasons) is expected to make a full recovery.
  
  No word yet on the other animal.
  
  9 5
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  December 2, 2020 3:03pm
  - RJ
    
    What, they haven’t put the other animal down yet, damn. But the public only care about the police dog
    
    3 4
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    December 2, 2020 3:14pm
- RJ
  
  Never had a dog have you?
  
  8 4
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  December 2, 2020 3:15pm
- Nickc2
  
  Police and military dog handlers have an affinity with their dogs that is difficult for people like you cmm to appreciate. Without being sexist, would you put your wife/GF out there to catch bullets meant for you? Get real you fuck wit, have some empathy for things that are not you!
  
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  December 2, 2020 5:27pm
Jack5

Reviewing the Productivity Commission report on immigration, Michael Reddell, at his Croakingcassandra blog, challenges the report’s view that New Zealand’s policy for attracting skilled migrants is “close to international best practice already.”

He also recounts suggestions he’s made previously, including:

– Discontinue Pacific access categories that provide preferential access to residence approvals to people who would not otherwise qualify;

– Allow residence approval for parents only where the New Zealand citizen children have purchased an insurance policy from a robust insurance company that will cover future superannuation, health, and rest-home costs.

https://croakingcassandra.com/2020/12/02/could-do-better/
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December 2, 2020 2:53pm
Jack5

ACT supported the Greens’ bill to allow testing of illegal drugs at festivals.

ACT is Woke? Has it conned a lot of us?

It’s as though in the wild, whisky-in-the hills days of Southland-Otago, Customs offered a service to ensure no methanol was getting into the “Hokonui”.
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December 2, 2020 3:08pm
- Bullion
  
  It’s the smart thing to do. Kudos on ACT for harm reduction.
  
  If 100 people took drugs and 5 had an adverse reaction, if pill testing dropped this to 1 person – there would have to be an increase to over 500 people taking drugs to have more harm from pill testing – highly unlikely.
  
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  December 2, 2020 4:21pm
- Cobolt24
  
  They’re a libertarian party, the less government is involved in restricting the people the better, not acting woke.
  
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  December 2, 2020 4:50pm
  - Jack5
    
    Well it’s parallel to Woke-ism.
    
    Not sure most of the firearms enthusiasts who swung to ACT would call themselves libertarians. I doubt all of them, even a majority of them, would back legal testing of illegal drugs at entertainment – for many of them, entertainment for their family’s teenagers.
    
    I’ve followed ACT since the days of Roger Douglas. The writer at this link doesn’t think Rogernomics was libertarian:
    
    http://libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/polin/polin165.pdf
    
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    December 2, 2020 5:30pm
    - Jack5
      
      The writer, Tim Sturm, calls ACT the Association of Compulsion Touters! ?
      
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      December 2, 2020 8:59pm
RJ

Well shit, this is going to cost the tax payers a fortune.

As it declares a climate change emergency the Government is promising to clean up its own house with all Government buildings going green and new cars going electric by 2025.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300172852/live-government-will-have-to-buy-electric-cars-and-build-green-buildings-as-it-declares-climate-change-emergency
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December 2, 2020 3:13pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Oh dear,
the weekend yuppies travelling over the Remutaka hill are missing out on their rip-off veges and quinoa.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123567977/filmmaker-james-camerons-businesses-takes-150000-in-wage-subsidies
7 3
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December 2, 2020 3:51pm
Yabster

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/m%c4%81ori-wards-petition-delivered-to-parliament-not-a-case-of-if-but-when/ar-BB1bxMkc?li=BBqdk7Q

Ironic- a petition to stop petitions to stop Maori wards.
8 2
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December 2, 2020 4:00pm
fightingtemeraire

Dosent apply to him he is a raging Leftie Vegan.
5 1
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December 2, 2020 4:51pm
Bobba Fret

This is sad, a further Covid 19 effect on the market.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/123576763/christmas-closures-will-see-70-jobs-lost-at-christchurch-factory
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December 2, 2020 4:54pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

https://babylonbee.com/news/in-national-survey-of-favorite-foods-lukewarm-bowl-of-porridge-wins-80-million-votes?
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December 2, 2020 5:58pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Amazing this Woman is still alive. 15 minutes in she stands her ground. Tell me there is not fraud.
https://rumble.com/vbiy7f-dominion-contractor-drops-a-bombshell.html?
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December 2, 2020 6:28pm
- SB2
  
  Trump’s AG William Barr would hotly dispute that.
  
  1 3
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  December 2, 2020 8:16pm
  - RJ
    
    Problem is Barr has not been investigating anything to do with voter fraud, that is something you trolls don’t understand yet. Not surprised you want to defend corruption and fraud. And not surprised that Barr is not investigating, this is a guy who had personal ties to pedophile Epstein.
    
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    December 2, 2020 9:18pm
Jack5

On TV1 tonight, Race Relations Commissioner Meng Foon openly, directly, unashamedly supported race-based local body representation.

Foon described as discriminatory present legislation which allows local body voters to force a referendum on whether their local body should provide council seats specifically for Maori – seats which would not require an election.

The Race Relations Commissioner is advocating race-based representation, and it would be preferential race-based representation, because one race’s councillors would not have to be elected.

Time to recall the slogans of The Party in Orwell’s “Nineteen Eighty-Four”:

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

To which the Woke in NZ are trying to add:

DEMOCRACY IS RACISM
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December 2, 2020 6:50pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Another fake bust on the US border. I have bigger here in NZ.
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?
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December 2, 2020 7:26pm
- Mike
  
  Oh, just how big is your bust, Steve?
  
  5 2
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  December 2, 2020 7:37pm
RJ

Very powerful speech from Dr. Linda Lee Tarver

But it’s ok the trolls with no experience will try discredit her as they did the gentleman from 305 intelligence unit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCWE9Qi84I8
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December 2, 2020 9:14pm
Kiwi_in_Paris

Any dispute with China is just a staged role-play, just like the plandemic hoax. All the Western leaders except Trump, are with China.
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December 2, 2020 9:15pm
Kiwi_in_Paris

The real Covid pandemic will probably start via the vaccine.

What better way to spread the Covid pandemic than to inject it into people’s arms, especially when they want to be infected by it?
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December 3, 2020 3:20am

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