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May 25, 2020 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 25 May 2020

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General Debate

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krazykiwi

A portion of the blame for the calamitous events if the past few months can be laid at the feet of Prof Neil Fergusson of Imperial College. His bug-filled, unreviewed and historically failed epidemic propagation model is the reason we should be very wary of authorities promoting new technologies to save us.

One of the next technology frontiers is ‘contact tracing’. Setting aside the privacy minefield this drops us into, a risk exists that inaccurate contact data catalyzed by faulty algorithms could result in one, or two, or millions of false infection alerts, setting off another qwave of unfounded, destructive panic.

From The Telegraph:

The entire process has been mired in controversy, with ministers initially promising the track and trace app would be rolled out across the UK by mid-May before Boris Johnson vowed that a “world-beating” system would be in place by June 1.

But the technology has been beset by problems and the ongoing trial on the Isle of Wight has not gone to plan.

A team of developers is attempting to iron out a range of issues, including a problem with the core algorithm, which will determine who to alert if somebody reports feeling unwell.

I don’t trust the accuracy of ANY software developed in a hurry, or in the absence of widespread scrutiny of patterns and practices used. I say this as a life-long software engineer.

Economically speaking we have sustained third degree burns as a result of the Imperial fiasco. We’d be wise to be very suspicious of anybody promising us a newly developed technical ‘solution’
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May 25, 2020 8:00am
- cmm
  
  KK: As another life-long programmer (over 40 years of experience in various fields), I would agree.
  
  Someone commented elsewhere that this has been the most expensive and damaging software ever written. I can’t think of a counter-example that comes close.
  
  I am fairly sure that Ferguson’s software was also used by Hendy’s mob. The characteristics are similar and I can’t see that they would have been able to write a simulation like that in the time available.
  
  The real problem though is that the modellers present their models with such confidence – never retracting when they are proven broken – and alarmists willingly accept these broken models because it suits their agenda.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:48am
  - Raphael
    
    Indeed. One of my primary reasons for being skeptical about the Climate Alarmism is the models.
    
    When the Climategate emails were leaked, buried in all of that was a text file. It was a developers log file where he was venting about the data. In it the developer refers repeatedly to models that no one understands, and others that operate as a complete black box. That discard stations data for no apparent reason and then creates virtual stations to cover the gaps etc. that will arbitrarily increase one figure and decrease another.
    And before any human analyses the climate data, it is run through these black boxes and models.
    
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    May 25, 2020 8:58am
    - cmm
      
      I have a copy of the UEA code kicking around here somewhere. Bloody messy stuff, but not as messy as Ferguson’s mess.
      
      The UEA code has quite a few “tweak factors” in it of the form: multiply by magic number to get the fit they wanted. As time has changed, the tweak values have changed to try keep the model in agreement with reality.
      
      This is not a model’s arse. It is just an attempt to git input and output to correlate.
      
      The only valid way to build a climate model is to build something that vaguely matches the physics involved. The UEA code does not.
      
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      May 25, 2020 9:09am
      - JackRabbit
        
        Ah, the evil programmers tool: magic numbers.
        
        For people who do not understand programming:
        
        “A magic number is a number in the code that seems arbitrary and has no context or meaning. This is considered an anti-pattern because it makes code difficult to understand and maintain.
        
        One of the most important aspects of code quality is how it conveys intention. Magic numbers hide intention so they should be avoided.”
        
        https://codeburst.io/software-anti-patterns-magic-numbers-7bc484f40544
        
        “This code also suffers from the use of “magic” numbers: undefined constant values that describe something (a conversion, number of sensor reads, a rate, etc.) only no one can tell what because they just appear as if out of magic. You should never have a magic number in your code because they make programs impossible to understand, are a large cause of errors, and make updating these values difficult as you have to hunt for all the places they are used.”
        – Steve Mconnell
        
        Referenced here:
        https://towardsdatascience.com/notes-on-software-construction-from-code-complete-8d2a8a959c69
        
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        May 25, 2020 9:28am
      - Tall Man
        
        GIGO you mean and being “run” by the rubbish collectors.
        
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        May 25, 2020 9:41am
      - Peter S
        
        Jack Rabbiit, loved McConnell’s books Code Complete and the one about why software projects fail.
        I lost count of how many times I read Code Complete, a great book for any aspiring programmer.
        
        Agree with all said above by Raphael & krazykiwi.
        
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        May 25, 2020 6:49pm
    - JackRabbit
      
      So true.
      
      The 97% consensus on man made climate change was never 97%. In the survey from which that “97%” was quoted, 66% of respondents had no position on climate change.
      
      The 97% was created by discarding 11,865 of 11,944 submitted papers, leaving just 79 of which 77 were supportive of man made climate change.
      So 97% of 0.66%. 3/4 of 5/8 of f*ck all.
      
      Another back box data modelling/analysis at work.
      
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      May 25, 2020 9:23am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Keep away from Fortran, it was superseded a while back.
    It’s an old trick to make a model in substitution of an working product–vapourware. The product hasn’t always emerged. Even Motorola fell in that trap.
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:42am
    - Ed Snack
      
      Modern FORTRAN versions work, and are typically fast and easy to write. But there are better options available if you want it readable and easily debugged. If you are doing stats work, it is hard to go past R.
      
      Modelling can be a bit of a tricky area though, in many cases if rather less so now than a few years ago, performance could be very important to get modelling runs done in reasonable time. So choosing a “fast” language like “C” might have been a reasonable option. But using a language like that makes it important to properly document and debug your code.
      
      But it is better than using Excel…
      
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      May 25, 2020 7:19pm
- JackRabbit
  
  I agree KK.
  
  At a principle level, software is simply a high level automation of processes. The biggest part of writing good software is aligning and streamlining the underlying process, before enshrining it in software. There are scores of epic software project fails and cost overruns.
  
  https://funixx.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/what-the-customer-really-needed/
  
  The job of aligning and streamlining the underlying process and designing the automation template, is the job of an expert business analyst/project manager and if you are lucky he/she will drive the development process in order to maintain the integrity of the process. Business analysts with project manager skills are rare as hens teeth.
  
  It has been said that a good business analyst, if asked to write a new tax management system for NZ, would first align the tax system to best practice by making tax a flat rate of 15% across the board and scrap any complicated tax credits for any reason, keeping true to the KISS principle.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:52am
  - Ian Boag
    
    It has been said … best practice … flat rate of 15%
    
    Much ‘has been said’ on the subject of tax, some of it by people willing to be identified . . but ‘best practice’ is a bit of an opinion thing.
    
    Whoever ‘it was said’ by has not attracted much of a following policy-wise around the world. Not that we need to be shy about being leaders …. 🙂
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:53am
    - JackRabbit
      
      On the contrary, some years back when Labour was in power under Helen, our Govt paid an external consulting firm horrendous amounts of money to find a better and more equitable tax system.
      
      The results were that NZ would be best to introduce a flat rate tax of 17% to 18%, which would reduce staffing numbers, and still meet current Govt revenue.
      
      Horrified at such a low figure, the Govt paid yet another consulting firm another horrendous amount of money to audit the clearly incorrect results.
      
      As fate would have it, the 2nd firm came back citing major errors in the first company’s models. Yes, they agreed with Govt, that the figure of 17% to 18% was incorrect. The correct figure was 15%.
      
      This of course was pre WFF, pre the last round of recurring taxpayer land claims, pre a lot of increased govt spending.
      
      Government is an overhead on the economy.
      
      Governance in any normal enterprise will set the level of overhead, not allow excess spending to dictate the percentage of overheads.
      
      Yes, you are right Ian, it does not attract much of a following by those in power. Self serving politicians will never vote to reduce the amount of money they spend, especially if they are vote buying by appeasing special interest groups. Would Billy Bunter vote for reducing the size of cream buns at the school cafe, or limit purchases to one per person. I don’t think so.
      
      Good Governance demands setting and restraining overheads and Govt spending. Good governance within governments is however, as rare as hens teeth.
      
      “…but ‘best practice’ is a bit of an opinion thing.”
      
      And there in lies the faulty thinking – that right and wrong is an “opinion thing”, and devoid of all or any alignment to underlying principles.
      
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      May 25, 2020 10:12am
      - Ian Boag
        
        I had a bit of a look for these reports or some reference to them. I couldn’t find anything. Can you help me here? Like who produced them and when? Did they make it into the public domain?
        
        Not doubting what you say, just curious.
        
        Roger Douglas was a 15% flat tax fan. To be fair, he had some WFF-like stuff built in to the bottom end. That was when Lange decided it was time for a cuppa …
        
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        May 25, 2020 10:37am
      - Ian Boag
        
        Self serving politicians will never vote to reduce the amount of money they spend, especially if they are vote buying by appeasing special interest groups.
        
        I guess just about every political initiative could be described that way. Muldoon /pension. Any kind of farm support. State housing. State health system. State education system. Student loans. Transmission Gulley. Borrowing to get through the GFC. It’s what governments do ….
        
        Billy Bunter. Showing your age – the fatarse from Greyfriars and his nemesis Quelch were popular when us over 70’s were children. 🙂
        
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        May 25, 2020 2:35pm
      - Ian Boag
        
        These ‘reports’ came out of your arse? Surely not ….
        
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        May 25, 2020 7:22pm
- Sacha
  
  And I don’t trust any vaccinations that are churned out in haste. Especially the ones aimed at seasonal viruses.
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:15am
  - MH
    
    you are after a vacillation, once you agree to it or not
    
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    May 25, 2020 12:44pm
- Tall Man
  
  I agree but do you blame the boy who cried wolf or the idiots that followed him into the forest?
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:39am
  - krazykiwi
    
    In fairness to Fergusson et al, their is a theoretical world devoid of danger and consequences, one where they have no need of BCR’s, or risk management.
    
    So I lay a majority of the blame on our elected leaders. They are supposed to wise enough to balance lots of competing data, and to chart a course thought it all in the best interests of the people they were elected to serve.
    
    Our elected leaders are clearly defective. I want new ones.
    
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    May 25, 2020 10:01am
    - Tall Man
      
      Ahem, “Selected”.
      
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      May 25, 2020 10:23am
  - MH
    
    and Ardern =little’s red riding hood
    
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    May 25, 2020 1:40pm
- Kiwi_in_Paris
  
  It was not only pre-planned, they actually wrote a paper on it.
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=128&v=KCGO_0TC2AM&feature=emb_logo
  
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  May 26, 2020 2:45am
mikenmildagain

Happy Towel Day!
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May 25, 2020 8:01am
- Random T Person
  
  42, surely! Cheers Mike, a good day to you.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:34am
  - RW Capitalist
    
    It’s times like this, I wish I’d listened to my mother
    Why, what did she say
    I don’t know, I never listened
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:20am
    - Loddenthinks
      
      My wife says I’m generally a good husband, but I have two major faults: I don’t listen, and something else.
      
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      May 25, 2020 10:03am
- mandk
  
  I keep one handy when I am hitchhiking around the galaxy.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:36am
- WaveyDavey
  
  I know where mine is
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:37am
- kowtow
  
  Throw it in .
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:43am
  - cmm
    
    … or Dry Up!
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:10am
    - sooty
      
      Wet, milky. Wet!
      
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      May 25, 2020 9:39am
- Komata
  
  MM@0801
  
  So you’d be a fan of Douglas Adams then?
  
  (Just asking).
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:52am
  - Ford Prefect
    
    Who isn’t??
    
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    May 25, 2020 10:08am
- Mobile Michael
  
  Don’t Panic.
  
  Interestingly, these are the words displayed on the entertainment system of Elon Musk’s Tesla that is eternally floating in space.
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:21am
- KevO'Brien
  
  There are many varieties of towels.
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:44am
- Ed Snack
  
  And who’s a hoopy frood then !
  
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  May 25, 2020 7:22pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Rheumatic Fever resulting from Strep throat infection has increased dramatically this year in NZ.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/417429/spike-in-rheumatic-fever-cases-in-wellington

This is a 3rd World disease that had nearly been eliminated in NZ.
Dr Betty said the disease had been on the decline but in the last year or two the government and DHBs had dropped the ball.
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May 25, 2020 8:06am
- mandk
  
  This is entirely a CoL failure.
  
  DHBs don’t create the conditions in which strep throat and rheumatic fever proliferate. They just deal with the consequences.
  
  Add this to the list of things our useless PM has delivered.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:13am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    Correct. The Key government, through Health Minister Tony Ryall, actually invested in a programme to vaccinate against Rheumatic Fever in 2011, and in subsequent years.
    
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/regional/84594/rheumatic-fever-programmes-launched
    
    It would appear the current administration has dropped the ball.
    
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    May 25, 2020 8:47am
    - Raphael
      
      What new? they’re constantly dropping the ball and then rush to the trusted old lies “9 years of neglect” or “National decreased Health spending”
      
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      May 25, 2020 8:59am
    - Tall Man
      
      You have to have the ball in your hand in order to drop it.
      
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      May 25, 2020 9:43am
    - Jules99
      
      Yes, I recall a teacher telling me that they were involved in getting testing done for suspected strep throat in children – lots of really good healthcare stuff happening in schools. I would hate to think that work is no longer being done.
      
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      May 25, 2020 12:03pm
      - david
        
        A whole loT of sewage running rampant (Flooding even ) down the walls of Middlemore Hospital got in the way of the programme to get the vaccination program underway. Neglect for 9 years saw lakes of untreated sewage forming under the beds in the intensive care wards and it wasn’t until Dr Clarke and St Jacinda mopped it up with paper towels that the people could sleep safely again.
        All hail the saviours!
        [sarc]
        
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        May 25, 2020 10:43pm
- Suze Wainwright
  
  How’s this happening under a caring, progressive Govt? (2 years of neglect?)
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:15am
  - Loddenthinks
    
    Not sure – check with the Minister for Child Poverty. She seems pretty good at making more of it.
    
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    May 25, 2020 11:17am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Nearly three
    
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    May 25, 2020 12:31pm
- MCos
  
  My brother in law died of heart problems in his fifties. An autopsy determined he’d probably had rheumatic fever as a kid and never knew.
  A long time ago down south the houses were cold and damp as a matter of course. No insulation, big families and inefficient heating.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:22am
  - MCos
    
    According to the Mayo Clinic Web Site
    
    The only way to prevent rheumatic fever is to treat strep throat infections or scarlet fever promptly with a full course of appropriate antibiotics.
    
    A lot of kids, all kids get a sore throat. Most of them are told to put up with it and eventually it goes away. It’s obvious which kids are more likely to see a doctor. It’s also obvious which kids are more susceptible to coughs, colds, sore throats.
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:08am
  - lemuzz
    
    I lived for more than 60 years in the coldest part of New Zealand in an uninsulated house for part of those years, as were most, if not all houses at that time. I don’t recall anyone catching rheumatic fever or any climate related illness other than colds and flu. In fact the climate was recognised as the most healthy in NZ. There was a Sanitorium near by. The TB patients rested in cold airy rooms and many on discharge continued living in the area. A number in their 80’s and 90’s are still there.
    
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    May 25, 2020 10:01am
    - MCos
      
      As I said he never knew he’d had rheumatic fever.
      BTW
      The life expectancy back then was 13 years less than what it is now.
      Cold, damp, overcrowded, low income homes are unhealthy.
      They were then & they are now.
      
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      May 25, 2020 4:56pm
  - Overworked
    
    But also back then, it took a hell of a lot to get most mothers to take kids to the doctor.
    
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    May 25, 2020 12:25pm
- artemisia
  
  Rheumatic fever is not only dangerous, it is also very expensive long term. New Zealand has developed an oral probiotic (K12) that has been shown to reduce significantly the incidence of strep throat in studies in Italy and Bay of Plenty. With other benefits as well.
  
  Support local, save money.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:24am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  Although he doesn’t say how said ball has been dropped, he then gets to the real issue:
  
  Both doctors said while the immediate measures were needed there had to be a long term push to alleviate poverty and create better housing.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:25am
  - mandk
    
    But he does make it clear that things were getting better under the last gov’t and are getting worse under this gov’t.
    
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    May 25, 2020 8:38am
  - artemisia
    
    About better housing, the mantra seems to be warm and dry as opposed to cold, damp and mouldy. Overcrowding, or the reasons for it, never seems to be mentioned.
    
    And warm, dry and no mould – almost all of that is tenant responsibility to remedy. That never seems to be mentioned either.
    
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    May 25, 2020 8:44am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      If you do a good job of ventilating the house, you can probably keep a lot of the mould away. But too many houses in New Zealand are uninsulated (or poorly insulated) shit boxes. Try heating them. Would you live in one?
      
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      May 25, 2020 9:01am
      - artemisia
        
        The uninsulated would be owner occupied then, apart from the few rentals not yet complying with insulation regulations. And their owners setting themselves up for big fines, quite a few of which have been awarded.
        
        Owner occupiers are allowed to live in the cold, damp and mouldy.
        
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        May 25, 2020 9:55am
  - Suze Wainwright
    
    Oh phew! That’s okay then, because this govt’s a pack of real winners…
    
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    May 25, 2020 8:45am
  - cmm
    
    Talk and hugfests do not fix poverty or build houses.
    
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    May 25, 2020 8:50am
    - Suze Wainwright
      
      Nah, but for feelz and photops they simply can’t be beaten!
      
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      May 25, 2020 9:14am
  - Michael NZ
    
    I’m giving you an uptick Mikey.
    Rare I know, but you are correct on both counts.
    1. Alleviate Poverty and 2. create better housing.
    
    1. A. Free education and adult retraining for vocational jobs. (whether it be city&guilds type, coding, upskill existing skills).
    1.B Benefit is temporary.
    The only way to alleviate poverty is to make jobs.
    Govt can’t do that only entrepreneurs can.
    
    2. A. For the lower end of the market there should be state housing. (which sets the standards).
    HNZ build kit-sets (fully plumbed and insulated, electric and data) that they erect all over the country where there is need. (1000 a year)..
    The tenants pay a % of income, sign a good character/Neighbour clause, out on their ear if they break it.
    
    2.B. Private Landlords should have MOT for their buildings to let them. NO MOT no letting.
    
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    May 25, 2020 10:48am
    - artemisia
      
      “2.B. Private Landlords should have MOT for their buildings to let them. NO MOT no letting.”
      
      There are standards in place already, more on the way, with tenant recourse to the Tenancy Tribunal and a very long list of fines for landlords.
      
      The University of Otago in Wellington did a lot of work on a rental warrant of fitness – in what I think was the first trial 6% passed. Be careful what you wish for!
      
      About 3 years back, the ever vigilant Wellington City Council introduced with fanfare a voluntary and reasonably cheap RWOF based on the Otago one. So far, 2 properties have passed.
      
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      May 25, 2020 12:59pm
    - Ed Snack
      
      And what do you do with aLl those who you would eject for poor behaviour, because they make up a good chunk of those in poverty.
      
      The sort of people who would look after a state house properly would probably have few problems anyway, but sadly they’re probably a minority.
      
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      May 25, 2020 7:31pm
  - Loddenthinks
    
    It’s true, there is real poverty in New Zealand.
    
    Poverty of parenting, and poverty of ambition. With this useless CoL government shoveling more money to people, instead of reducing taxes, the cycle will be perpetuated.
    
    Incentivising idleness instead of enterprise is criminal, and I hope they get turfed out come September.
    
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    May 25, 2020 11:20am
  - Ed Snack
    
    Wrong actually, the cause is a medical issue, and when promptly treated the longer lasting effects become exceedingly rare. Alleviating poverty isn’t a simple cure like that, some people cannot be lifted out of a poverty mindset without substantial psychological assistance.
    
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    May 25, 2020 7:27pm
- fernglas
  
  It has spoiled a good few lives and more than one rugby career. It’s not just the government and DHB’s at fault, but parents who should have got treatment for their kids.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:31am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Rheumatic fever is a difficult one to blame on parental neglect. Not every parent seeks medical help for sore throats.
    It’s a classic disease of poverty and poor housing.
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:40am
    - artemisia
      
      It is a classic disease of overcrowding with ethnicity a key factor. Not sure if it is still the case but until recently there were nurses assigned to visit schools in South Auckland mainly to check any children with a sore throat and follow up.
      
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      May 25, 2020 10:08am
    - Loddenthinks
      
      Not seeking medical help when your kid gets sick is the dictionary definition of parental neglect!
      
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      May 25, 2020 11:20am
      - MCos
        
        When I was a kid Mum didn’t rush off to the doctor every time one of her seven kids got a cold.
        
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        May 25, 2020 11:57am
      - MH
        
        and getting a tattoo does not equate to giving your child reading lessons
        
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        May 25, 2020 12:05pm
      - artemisia
        
        Especially when seeing the doc is free.
        
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        May 25, 2020 12:49pm
    - Overworked
      
      Although strep throat can be silent, kids do tend to be visibly sick with strep throat, and pretty whiney with it, it hurts like hell.
      
      There are still a lot of parents out there who, despite having a car and despite medical appointments being free or near to it, won’t bother taking kids to the doctor when they’re significantly unwell. Awareness campaigns tend to recruit the white middle classes rather than the target audience.
      
      Overcrowding and lack of fresh air in the house is an issue also, but that’s usually a problem of behavioural origin. As people have pointed out, kids brought up in the deep south decades ago tended to be pretty robust on the whole, despite many of them – boys mostly – having to sleep on the verandah, including during hoar frosts.
      
      It’s a tough one to address and we haven’t found the way to do it yet. There are still far to many kids with damaged hearts turning up too late to medical care.
      
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      May 25, 2020 12:36pm
KevO'Brien

Good reason for NZ to keep well away:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/05/china-hk-national-security-law-lead-sanctions-200524144925980.html
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May 25, 2020 8:08am
- kowtow
  
  NZ Inc has invested heavily into the myth that it punched above its weight and ended apartheid in SA, still trades on that hyperbole.
  I suppose there wasn’t a huge amount of trade to lose out on .
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:26am
  - rockape
    
    I think the biggest influence was the large uk banks like Lloyd’s and Barclays closing them down. It was not a few rugby protesters. UK banks closed down the SA economy.
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:11am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    I see us like a mouse among two feuding elephants.
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:48am
    - Harriet
      
      No.
      
      China’s fucked as the belt and road project is going nowhere as lots of countries who signed on are now in real hardship. And they owe China money. Some have debt to china of 40% of GDP!
      China also now has mass unemployment – along with the ramifications of their one child policy — a married couple has to provide for themselves and help provide for 4 ageing parents!
      
      Mark Steyn has banged on for years that China will be old before they are rich. Chinese people are the cheapest people on earth – in other words they can’t get low wage immigrants in to help – manufacturing is also going elsewhere.
      Trump won.
      
      Edit – Boris has just banned China from the UK 5g network. The US has said it will disengage from Australia if Victoria signs up to the belt and road and puts telecommunications at risk.
      
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      May 25, 2020 11:59am
      - KevO'Brien
        
        It’s too early to call–this year’s going to be a lulu.
        
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        May 25, 2020 12:34pm
Tauhei Notts

The cartoonist in this morning’s newspaper depicts a picture of the Donald crying about his approval ratings dropping.
This prompted a visit to a betting site to see how his odds had deteriorated in the upcoming presidential election. =No change.
Someone must, sometime, give that cartoonist counselling for his Trump Derangement Syndrome. It is becoming nauseating.
Interestingly National’s odds have worsened since Friday’s brouhaha but as that betting market is so small I doubt whether it has any credibility, whereas turnover on the Trump market exceeds $58mil.
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May 25, 2020 8:09am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  It bears repeating: Trump’s approval ratings are consistently the lowest for any president since modern polling began.
  But perhaps his weekend of retweeting childish insults and endorsing conspiracy theories will mark a change…
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:35am
  - Inandout
    
    m&m, that means he will win.
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:06am
  - cmm
    
    If that helps you sleep at night, go with it.
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:13am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Sorry to keep introducing you to the reality-based community.
      
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      May 25, 2020 9:38am
      - All_on_Red
        
        Hahaha
        Mikey thinks Agregated Polls are ‘reality based’!
        
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        May 25, 2020 9:58am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        You have better data sources?
        
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        May 25, 2020 10:14am
      - Loddenthinks
        
        Aggregated polls are not “data” they are opinions based on a snapshot in time. There’s only one poll that matters; it’s in November and your creepy sleepy candidate will lose, bigly.
        
        [Mods: apologies once again, and to All_on_Red – I hit Report when looking for Reply. Again.]
        
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        May 25, 2020 11:24am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Do you think the betting market Tauhei Notts referred to counts as ‘data’? Or is that different because it appears to favour Trump?
        
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        May 25, 2020 12:11pm
  - RW Capitalist
    
    Not true
    Obama 2014
    Bush 2006, 2007, 2008
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:31am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      I didn’t claim that Trump has the lowest approval rating ever. I just noted, once again, that his consistently low approval rating is easily the worst since proper polling began during Truman’s presidency.
      
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      May 25, 2020 10:16am
      - Batman
        
        When you tweet out a thank you image on Twitter because you reached 50% in one poll that isn’t Rasmussen, you know you’re not doing flash with the voters.
        
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        May 25, 2020 10:37am
      - Michael NZ
        
        yeah, you do Streetttttch the truth Mikey.
        
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        May 25, 2020 10:52am
  - kloyd0306
    
    How accurate were the US polls in October 2016?
    
    How do US polls take the Electoral College into account?
    
    Mmmmmmm?
    
    Wishing for Trump’s demise does not make it so.
    
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    May 25, 2020 11:24am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      It is relatively easy to construct polling models that take into account likely results in the key states.
      Polling was actually reasonably accurate in 2016, showing that Trump still had a route to victory, which he took by scoring narrow wins in key swing states. Polling in those states now suggests it is a tough ask for him to repeat the feat.
      It’s still early days, but it’s worth reflecting that no president has been re-elected with such consistently poor approval ratings. He still has time to succeed by changing his approach, if he wants to.
      
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      May 25, 2020 12:15pm
- Tony Stuart
  
  If National is still at long odds to win the election, get your dollars on them now, because it won’t last.
  
  From what I’ve heard, National’s website has been running hot since 1pm on Friday with members renewing, new members joining the party, and money rolling in.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:50am
  - Brian McDonald
    
    Why would the ‘renewing’ members be rejoining Tony?
    
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    May 25, 2020 11:06am
MT_Tinman

A very quick, back of the envelope (literally), calculation suggests every NZ household will be paying in excess of $80. per week in interest alone from borrowing announced in the last budget.

Given that only half NZ households are likely to contribute that means working households will be stumping up $160. per week just on interest.

Next time your neighbour/friend praises the current clowns advise them of this.
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May 25, 2020 8:12am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Does anyone know how many net taxpayers individual and corporate taxpayers there actually are? I strongly doubt it’s at 50%.
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:51am
  - Michael NZ
    
    Kev
    DPF put up an xls a few years ago showing 168,000 taxpayers earning +$120,000pa paid 90+% of private Tax allowing for WFF.
    
    Love to see the same for just before Covid19.
    
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    May 25, 2020 10:54am
    - KevO'Brien
      
      10%?
      
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      May 25, 2020 12:35pm
Maggie Pie

Is this truly now compulsory?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EYgJGAgVAAAQcqy?format=jpg&name=900×900

Asking for my friends.
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May 25, 2020 8:13am
- rouppe
  
  I do not believe that it is compulsory, assuming that they are talking about the nz covid tracer app.
  
  If they have come up with their own app to streamline their own contact tracing recording that might be different if they are a business that is required to keep records of their customers.
  
  Note retail stores do not need to keep records, but cafes and restaurants are not retail stores and do need to keep records. Last time I looked
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:21am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  Only if you want to eat at a place following good health practice.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:26am
  - Inandout
    
    m&m, having a scribble pad at the door doesn’t mean the kitchen is clean.
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:08am
- Raphael
  
  I understand that for cafes/restaurants etc. it is a condition of their being open, for other stores (like Animates etc) it’s voluntary.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:38am
  - Loddenthinks
    
    It may be a condition of operating that they are able to trace their patrons, but it is most definitely NOT a condition that they have to use the government’s (or any other) tracing app to do it.
    
    Won’t be going to that restaurant in a hurry. or ever.
    
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    May 25, 2020 11:29am
- cmm
  
  If you want to keep being a cowering wreck, then keep doing this.
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:14am
- RW Capitalist
  
  Would appear that any restaurant, cafe etc that demands this, will not receive my patronage.
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:35am
- lemuzz
  
  While I do have a mobile phone I don’t use it often. I won’t be logging in everywhere I go.
  
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  May 25, 2020 10:12am
  - Batman
    
    Then don’t expect to be allowed into a lot of cafes, bars and restaurants.
    
    Though you can do it the old school way and sign in physically ?
    
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    May 25, 2020 10:38am
    - alex Masterley
      
      My local coffee shop is only sign in, with pen and paper.
      Had to remember how to sign things.
      
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      May 25, 2020 12:25pm
- rouppe
  
  It looks like the qr code takes you to a firm to fill in. As opposed to a pad and pen.
  
  So not the government thing. Whether it is secure and who has access to the data, and all that other privacy jazz… [shrug]
  
  Plus, since the qr code works from the link you posted, it can now be filled in by anyone from anywhere possibly rendering it compromised data for tracking purposes
  
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  May 25, 2020 10:55am
- krazykiwi
  
  Our church pastor said that there will be QR scanning required once churches are permitted to re-start.
  
  I told him no dice. The next, and only religious establishment I scan into will have pearly gates. Retinal scans, you understand. To prevent identity theft.
  
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  May 25, 2020 11:13am
MT_Tinman

Question: At what stage in the next 12 months will Australia close it’s borders to refugees from New Zealand?
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May 25, 2020 8:14am
Colville

RNZ understands lobbyist Megan Campbell was being lined up to take over as Muller’s chief of staff.
Campbell worked in the Opposition leader’s office from 2000 to 2003 before going on to eventually work for government relations firm Saunders Unsworth and National’s pollster Curia.
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May 25, 2020 8:14am
- Tony Stuart
  
  If so, it’s a fantastic appointment. Megan is a very sharp, politically astute lady, who won’t be afraid to bang heads together when needed. She will be a real asset to Muller and National.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:32am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    Your breathless enthusiasm for any new development in the national party always raises a smile.
    
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    May 25, 2020 8:36am
    - Tony Stuart
      
      I know Megan personally mikenmild. She narrowly lost the Coromandel selection to Scott Simpson in 2011, and would have been an excellent MP. My enthusiasm for her is based on a knowledge of what she will bring to the role, and suffice to say, she will bring plenty.
      
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      May 25, 2020 8:52am
      - Brian McDonald
        
        Tony, it’s clear that as a Nat’s party member you’re doing your bit and taking it upon yourself to celebrate the appointment of Todd as the leader, so why did he complicate things with a bloody hat necessitating that he had to follow it by saying Trump is an appalling leader?
        He’s managed to assault the sensibilities of at least 2 groups in 1 news piece.
        When I saw it on Friday I thought it was weird, because outside the cloistered world of KB Trump is not admired, even here by DPF. Take a look at it on FB, it’s not pretty.
        
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        May 25, 2020 11:29am
      - gorse
        
        I just cannot believe the controversy over a MAGA hat seen in Muller’s office. He clearly explained it’s presence and the Clinton badges alongside. There is no issue. The media can’t believe their luck. They think, and I underline think, they have found something to destroy National’s new leader within a day of his election. This is so pathetic it leaves me almost speechless.
        
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        May 25, 2020 11:50am
      - Lance
        
        @gorse
        A few years ago I purchased a plastic kit set WW2 German armoured vehicle model. A bit of a nostalgia trip and heaps of fun to build.
        That does really mean I am a Nazi or that I share anything whatsoever of their vile viewpoint, although I am sure to some of the lefty trolls will consider being a National party supporter AND having a German plastic tank model is proof positive.
        
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        May 25, 2020 12:11pm
      - Surely Knott
        
        If the hat is a symbol of revulsion and racism to leftists and their media supporters. Then why did they go into partnership with NZ1 who used the trump slogan as a feature of their last election campaign. Shane Jones regularly wore his “make new zealand great again hat” in the last election campaign. It wasn’t just an object of interest on his shelf. Where was the media then?
        
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        May 25, 2020 4:38pm
    - kowtow
      
      Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
      Any honeymoon he may have hoped for from the Media party is gone with the hat .
      Simon’s crowd will be enjoying a quiet chuckle at that political faux pas , or as the lefty media would say , tone deaf imagery.
      Any bounce the Nats could have hoped for from the soft centre idiot voters won’t happen . They’ll be the very ones most influenced by all this Media hat talk .Not to mention the race stuff . All fluff but that’s what the “centre” is swayed by.
      
      Oh well , the Nats will want to be looking for a successor to Muller ……..
      
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      May 25, 2020 8:54am
      - Tony Stuart
        
        I couldn’t disagree more kowtow. The only people getting outraged about the MAGA hat (but not the Clinton badges) are people who would never vote National anyway.
        
        Oscar Wilde once said “It’s better to be talked about than not be talked about”. Muller got a massive boost in name recognition yesterday, and thousands of people reading the story in print and online will have shaken their heads in despair of journalistic standards.
        
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        May 25, 2020 9:00am
      - kowtow
        
        TS , it’s the the people who are getting outraged and writing about , yes they’ll never vote right of centre.
        It’s the swing voter that this whole exercise is about , or so we’re told .
        They are the ones this is all about , and as they are so easily swung by imagery , fluff and shallow non sense then this will be a bigly issue.
        I don’t want to see another labour Col but as I said the imagery ain’t going to do Todds’ ( our) prospects any good at all.
        
        And I’m not saying he shouldn’t have the hat , he can do anything he likes , but as said so often here , politics is about perception and for the centre ( soft) voter this is not a good look.
        
        Happy to be shown to be wrong . But this story is front page on the ODT and instead of the twitterati talking policy . it’s all race and hats .Not good for Todd.
        
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        May 25, 2020 9:12am
      - rockape
        
        I think the opposite to be true. It showed up how pathetic and biased the media are. The more who realise that the better for National.
        
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        May 25, 2020 9:15am
      - rouppe
        
        If you want to talk about tone deaf imagery, perhaps you should look at the woman complaining about that divisive hat, while wearing a divisive hijab
        
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        May 25, 2020 11:21am
      - Lance
        
        Or maybe ordinary, centre leaning voters realise that the only ones shrieking hysterically about a collectors cap are swivel headed loons and they don’t really want to join that group?
        
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        May 25, 2020 12:15pm
    - RW Capitalist
      
      It gives us hope….the hope that we may soon have a competent government.
      
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      May 25, 2020 9:36am
    - KevO'Brien
      
      Why don’t you just rain on in the Standard where the whole world look bleak.
      
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      May 25, 2020 9:55am
graham

Chlöe Swarbrick moved up the list, so now the Green Party 2020 election list top 10:

1. Marama Davidson
2. James Shaw
3. Chlöe Swarbrick
4. Julie Anne Genter
5. Jan Logie
6. Eugenie Sage
7. Golriz Ghahraman
8. Teanau Tuiono
9. Dr. Elizabeth Kerekere
10. Ricardo Menéndez March

I know it was discussed ad nauseum here (https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2020/04/green_party_initial_list.html) but this is still 7 women, 3 men.

Which doesn’t seem very “equal” to me.

Just saying.
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May 25, 2020 8:15am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  Graeme Edgeler had a very full comment in that thread explaining the misconceptions about the greens’ list.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:37am
  - JamesP
    
    Ah yes. The overly complex process to “solve” a non-issue which ends up failing to achieve its aim. He explained that very well…
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:14am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    For the downtickers too lazy to follow this up, here is Edgeler’s explanation. Sorry it’s a bit long, but some things are more complicated than most Kiwibloggers are accustomed to.
    
    The members vote on their list.
    When looking a place 1 on the “working list”, you look at the top three candidates on the members list, choosing one.
    This is how it works at every step, you look at the three highest ranked people, who haven’t yet been moved from the members list to the actual list.
    
    Using DPF’s example above, you are looking at spot four. The three highest ranked people not yet on the list are:
    
    Eugenie Sage,
    Teanau Tuiono, and
    Julie-Anne Genter
    
    You need some more male gender balance, so Teanau Tuiono gets bumped up one place.
    
    Eugenie Sage takes the fifth spot, and now you’re filling spot six. You look at the next three:
    
    Julie-Anne Genter, 33% male
    Chloe Swarbrick, 29% male
    Golriz Ghahraman, 25% male
    
    Pick one: JAG
    
    It doesn’t matter that the balance criterion suggests you need another male for gender balance. There isn’t another male in the top three who haven’t made it yet, so you can’t pick them.
    
    Now spot 7:
    Chloe Swarbrick, 29% male
    Golriz Ghahraman, 25% male
    Elizabeth Kerekere, 22% male
    
    Pick one: Chloe Swarbrick. Yes, you’re still under 40% men, but no man was ranked high enough to fill spot 7, so it goes, on merit, to a woman.
    
    Now spot 8. Among the three options looked at is Ricardo Menendez March. He gets bumped up two places.
    
    The rules do not *require* gender balance at any stage of the process, there’s some shuffling around to add some balance, but only if it means that no person ranked by members on whatever merit criterion they apply, moves by no more than two places, up or down. No-one can move up by four places, like Ricardo Menendez March would in DPF’s example.
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:33am
    - Captain Mainwaring
      
      Milky, you seem to know so much about the communist Green party that I suspect it’s hazardous to your health.
      
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      May 25, 2020 9:57am
    - Tarquin North
      
      Much easier to do it this way, ten divided by two equals five, two genders five of each equals ten. Why would anyone vote for a party that can’t even work that out?
      
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      May 25, 2020 10:04am
      - MH
        
        any gay semi colons in the mix. My apols but has Metiria Turei paid back her benefit fraud yet? Wot about her election double voting fraud, It doesn’t apply because sh was not an MP then, and the men who were kicked off the party because most men agreed she was a crook. Give them the green finger.
        
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        May 25, 2020 12:23pm
    - graham
      
      Thank you for posting that MM, I couldn’t actually find it – I do remember seeing it, but it does not appear to be in the original post. Would be interested to know where it is.
      
      I would make three comments.
      
      1. My word, what a complicated process!
      
      2. If I have it right (and that’s a BIG “if” with such a complicated process), then if the Greens get enough votes for six MPs then it would be 5 women, 1 man:
      
      Marama Davidson
      James Shaw
      Chlöe Swarbrick
      Julie Anne Genter
      Jan Logie
      Eugenie Sage
      
      If they get seven MPs then it would be 5 women, 2 men:
      
      Marama Davidson
      James Shaw
      Chlöe Swarbrick
      Julie Anne Genter
      Jan Logie
      Teanau Tuiono (elevated for gender balance)
      Eugenie Sage
      
      And if they get eight MPs then it would be 5 women, 3 men (and Golriz misses out):
      
      Marama Davidson
      James Shaw
      Chlöe Swarbrick
      Julie Anne Genter
      Jan Logie
      Teanau Tuiono (elevated for gender balance)
      Eugenie Sage
      Ricardo Menéndez March (elevated for gender balance)
      
      Feel free to correct me if I have that wrong. The point is, even with their complex system, they still end up with a significant gender imbalance.
      
      3. A lot of politics is about the optics. Notwithstanding the actual selection process, how many people will look at the list and think “Y’know, for a party that harps on about equality this seems rather heavily weighted in favour of one gender”. And the sad thing is, the people that vote for the Greens probably won’t care – they’ll see it as “righting the inherent wrongs in the male-patriarchical system” or some such twaddle.
      
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      May 25, 2020 10:15am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        All I can really suggest that anyone concerned that there are not enough male MPs should not vote for the greens!
        
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        May 25, 2020 10:54am
      - MH
        
        not a macron to be-uphold…in belle france it is being replaced by a crouton.
        
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        May 25, 2020 12:26pm
      - Peter S
        
        Sorry Mm. Hit report not reply.
        
        Hopefully at the election the Greens will get the perfectly gender balanced mix of MPs they richly deserve.
        
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        May 25, 2020 7:00pm
    - Loddenthinks
      
      So what you’re suggesting is that there’s a ranking list which is used to rank the list for the List?
      
      If the criterion is an equal gender balance (wouldn’t they need 254 candidates to give each “gender” a turn?) then there’s something wrong with the ranking list that they use to rank people going on the List.
      
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      May 25, 2020 11:35am
  - 3-coil
    
    And weighted for seniority, the “pro-gender equality” Green Party’s anti-male bias is: Girls 3.25 vs Boys 1
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:55am
    - MH
      
      please supply a working model, with Probables vs Possibles as they used to do at Athletic Park.
      Fancy any sportsperson getting paid in these times, bring back that honourable word-amateur and deny the Warriors re-entry-when the country needed them they were seduced by the Aussie dollar instead of promoting the game other than in South Auckland. Be blowed if I’m gonna watch them. Even the Springboks have places for blacks.
      
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      May 25, 2020 12:34pm
  - Michael NZ
    
    link!
    
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    May 25, 2020 11:15am
    - MH
      
      0.201168 of a metre
      
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      May 25, 2020 12:35pm
- Raphael
  
  She is up there so that the Green’s can trot out “OK Boomer” every time Muller opens his mouth.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:39am
  - kowtow
    
    He should reply OK Stoner, cos that’s all Swarfega’s got.( apart from an uncritical media fan party)
    
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    May 25, 2020 8:46am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Muller is Generation X.
    
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    May 25, 2020 8:47am
  - emmess
    
    The correct response is OK Karen
    
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    May 25, 2020 8:50am
  - Tarquin North
    
    Most of them look like and could easily identify as men so that should cover things.
    
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    May 25, 2020 8:50am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    The only problem there is that, at 51 years old, Muller isn’t a Boomer. Swarbrick made an assumption that proved to be wrong.
    
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    May 25, 2020 8:54am
    - James Stephenson
      
      I have to say as another proud Gen-X’er, he’s doing it wrong. Not nearly enough “slacker” about him, if you ask me.
      
      Also, “Ok, Boomer” actually translates as “look at me, I’m an entitled child”.
      
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      May 25, 2020 9:29am
      - Pharmachick
        
        Define Irony
        
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        May 25, 2020 2:21pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    To be fair, Muller comes across as a boomer rather than a stereotypical Gen X ‘slacker’.
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:37am
    - KevO'Brien
      
      And you?
      
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      May 25, 2020 10:00am
      - Tall Man
        
        Old.
        
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        May 25, 2020 5:06pm
  - RW Capitalist
    
    On the current polling, will have to be shouting it from the gallery.
    
    9 1
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    May 25, 2020 9:38am
- rouppe
  
  It’s worse than that, as their own rules say no gender should fall below 40% at and level past 3.
  
  4. 25%
  5. 20%
  6. 16.6%
  7. 14.2%
  8. 25%
  9. 22.2%
  10. 30%
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:43am
  - rangitoto
    
    Yeah but how many genders do they have on that list. I’m told there are lots of genders these days.
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:57am
- pdm
  
  Gender balance does not appear to meet Green Party rukes.
  
  22 2
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  May 25, 2020 8:47am
- UrbanNeocolonialist
  
  Chlöe Swarbrick moved up the list, so now the ~~Green~~ Karens Party 2020 election list top 10:
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:07am
- MrTips
  
  It is outrageous that Labour and National continue with this binary gender leadership model. The Greens must lead the revolution and demand popular leadership represent all 59 Facebook genders. Jan Logie could mime them all.
  
  16 1
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  May 25, 2020 9:48am
- Bobba Fret
  
  Well I’m hoping the Greens get 4.9% of the vote that will give them the number of seats they deserve.
  
  21 1
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  May 25, 2020 9:52am
  - Michael NZ
    
    Bobba
    let’s make that 4.5% for safety shall we?
    
    13 0
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    May 25, 2020 11:20am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Do they gender preferences, realised or unrealised as actual for the list purposes?
  
  8 1
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  May 25, 2020 9:57am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  They could rename it The Women’s Party.
  
  13 0
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  May 25, 2020 10:56am
- DeepBlue
  
  Equal only applies when women are fewer than 50%, thereafter the policy is shelved.
  
  8 0
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  May 25, 2020 11:15am
- krazykiwi
  
  What a terrifying collection. A toxic brew of zealotry, hypocrisy and Marxist ideology. New Zealand would be smart to show them the door, and sooner rather than later.
  
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  May 25, 2020 11:18am
Inandout

Maggie, just walk on by.
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May 25, 2020 8:16am
- Maggie Pie
  
  But I met my partner there nearly 9 years ago.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:42am
  - cmm
    
    Are you taking him back for a refund?
    
    16 0
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    May 25, 2020 9:16am
    - Maggie Pie
      
      He really had such a great pick-up line.
      I was sitting at the bar sipping a Slippery Nipple when he sidled up and said, “My name is Bond. Uni Bond. I’m here to fill your crack in”. LOL!!!
      
      Honestly, i was like putty in his hands.
      
      20 2
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      May 25, 2020 9:41am
      - cmm
        
        Unfortunately caulking dries up, falls out and needs to be changed once in a while…
        
        17 0
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        May 25, 2020 9:45am
      - Maggie Pie
        
        Not if it’s always wet 😛
        
        15 2
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        May 25, 2020 10:12am
Hacked-Off

The problem with the Government App is that it does not work because so many shops and firms have gone with private Apps. I first came across this when I was at the Library the other day and the lady in front of me in the cue asked the Greeter if the App she was offering the lady was the Government one. No – it was not. So there is a gap in monitoring and the whole system is screwed up with no one system able to talk to another system. Just a another normal day under this CoL Government of caring and compassion that can’t seem to get anything done.
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May 25, 2020 8:26am
- Michael NZ
  
  I just sign the paper.
  
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  May 25, 2020 11:21am
I remember when

So if Todd Muller leaves the MAGA cap in his cabinet it will show he is a racist.
If, on the other hand, he removes it he will be shown to be a political opportunist.
Sounds fair to me.
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May 25, 2020 8:28am
- Akarak
  
  Auckland’s last surviving daily newspaper has already decided how you should vote with articles like ‘Todd Muller’s first days’ (which can only be based on one full working day, Friday) and the headlining of the fact that Muller has, horror of horrors, a MAGA cap’. I found it especially amazing the reaction of the muslim community spokespeople. Aliya Danzeisen of the Islamic Women’s Council is quoted as saying “That hat represents the denial of the freedom of beliefs. That hat represents the denial of minority voices. That hat represents the vitriol that has been harming that nation and has been harming the world for the last four years.”
  Personally I believe that her claim could be easily applied to the garb that she and other adherents of her faith wear. Pot. Kettle. Black.
  I am beginning to think that a boycott of advertisers who advertise in the Herald maybe a solution to assist them in their rapidly approaching demise.
  
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  May 25, 2020 10:41am
Left Right and Centre

National MP Maureen Pugh ‘gets the last laugh’ after voting for Todd Muller.

“I have gotten to know Todd as a good person and decent person”.

She lost me at ‘gotten’. I’m with Simon – she is f%&king useless.
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May 25, 2020 8:28am
- mandk
  
  ‘Gotten’ is an ugly and unnecessary word used by uneducated people.
  
  She could have said “I have come to know …’
  
  34 2
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  May 25, 2020 8:43am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    Yes, that, and “learnings”. Hearing those two words has the same effect on me as fingernails on a blackboard…
    
    36 3
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    May 25, 2020 8:57am
    - alex Masterley
      
      Add in “wellness” and you have the trifecta of words that I detest.
      
      21 1
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      May 25, 2020 9:02am
      - Cod Weyne
        
        If I may go for a quad alex…how about “youse”?
        
        16 0
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        May 25, 2020 9:58am
      - alex Masterley
        
        Thinking about it there is also the use of “Brought” instead of “bought” which tends to make me grind my teeth in frustration.
        
        3 0
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        May 25, 2020 2:39pm
    - krazykiwi
      
      ‘Kindness’ has been massively de-valued too.
      
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      May 25, 2020 11:20am
      - Tarquin North
        
        Hard to go past “aspirational” which is code for doing nothing.
        
        10 0
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        May 25, 2020 11:39am
  - cmm
    
    None of us know what she really said. Once it has been through the journalists it’s no longer reliable.
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:18am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Gotten is also b. useful in context.
    
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    May 25, 2020 10:04am
  - gorse
    
    Or just “got”. Gotten is creeping into New Zealand. I here it on TV news here sometimes.
    
    4 0
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    May 25, 2020 12:11pm
- Mobile Michael
  
  Have to agree with Simon – there’s been several issues that a Coaster could stick the boot into Labour for that National has missed.
  
  If Pugh had any competence her first move after hearing her leader call her that should have been to call the Whip and ask how to change the perception in the Caucus. Instead the next time we hear from her is to kick a colleague when he’s down.
  
  Even more useless.
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:26am
  - Michael NZ
    
    No, He deserved it.
    Soiman is a motor mouth, when it should have been shut.
    She gave him what she felt he deserved, which is fair for her.
    National were always going to change Soiman at some time.
    
    2 10
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    May 25, 2020 11:24am
- Pharmachick
  
  I had a strip torn off me by one of my PhD supervisors in the late 90s for using “gotten” in an email.
  
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  May 25, 2020 2:25pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Long post but a good read:
From Trey Gowdy:
“I’m not saying Covid-19 isn’t real… But Pay attention folks, there’s much more going on here than what meets the eye.
Is it a coincidence that just when the economy is booming, the stock market is setting record highs, we are winning the trade wars, school shootings have stopped, our nation is at peace, the Democratic party is a disaster and so is their likely nominee? (Biden). He hasn’t a chance in hell & they’re not about to let an outsider(Bernie) destroy their scheme.
It looks like Trump is a sure bet for reelection after fending off 3 years of investigations and impeachment, then all of a sudden world crisis pandemic. Stock market tumbles, companies are laying off employees, everything is closed and canceled, CEO’s of giant companies are resigning and indictments are coming.
Now they say there are a couple ways a President doesn’t win reelection. Those are an unpopular war or a poor economy.
But there is something larger going on here driving this sudden outbreak right after Trump beats an impeachment. Especially the fact that it (Corona Virus) originated in China who we are in a global trade war with; brought on by Trump. Let’s not forget Biden’s back door deals with CHINA as well.
China doesn’t want 4 more years of Trump either. It all seems rather convenient for the nations and opponents of our current President and economy 5 months before an election. Couldn’t have hit at a more perfect time.
With the Democrats running out of campaign talking points, in light of no school shootings, no migrant caravans at the southern border, fighting in Syria winding down, North Korea not firing missiles and Trump beating a sham impeachment. The Corona Virus gave them one last hail Mary to try and point fingers at Trump with the clock winding down in 2020.
This is almost the perfect fascist playbook. Control the population with fear-mongering and panic, control the media, spread propaganda and the fan-favorite disarm the population. Oh, and did anyone notice that while they are mad as hell at Trump for not sending aid to Ukraine, they THEMSELVES voted AGAINST giving ANY emergency aid to all Americans ?
Sorry but I don’t think we are all going to die. Remember when Ebola was what was going to kill us all, and the media kept showing the piles of body bags that were prepared for the fallout. Then a month later it was totally forgotten.
The common flu has killed more people this year already and the media is SILENT!
A handful of deaths out of 320 million Americans and we are in panic tearing down our society and costing our economy billions in the wake. It all just seems fishy, a little too well-timed if you ask me.”
Trey Gowdy
[Copy and paste if you dare.]
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May 25, 2020 8:29am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Sounds like Gowdy is not the author, he shared it on Facebook
  
  4 9
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  May 25, 2020 8:32am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Trey Gowdy needs to get to the bottom of that Benghazi business before he moves on to a bigger conspiracy theory.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:41am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Are you trying to tell me that the Benghazi incident is fiction?
    Clinton and Obama are donkey deep in the corruption
    
    9 2
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    May 25, 2020 11:23am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      All I’m saying is that the dozen or so investigations (including six congressional committees) into the Benghazi attack clearly did not get to the bottom of the matter.Surely it is time for a thorough re-examination.
      
      5 2
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      May 25, 2020 12:30pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Courts Mike. Put those bastards under oath. If they lie, off to the hinaki
        
        4 2
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        May 25, 2020 1:03pm
- MCos
  
  There is a reference to Ebola.
  Two people contracted the disease in the US and there was certainly a big fuss made at the time.
  Obama was President and he was criticized for not doing enough to protect the country.
  Along came the midterm elections.
  After that there was no more talk of Ebola.
  
  The Ebola Epidemic was basically confined to West Africa.
  
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  May 25, 2020 8:50am
  - cmm
    
    The Ebola Epidemic was also a complete beat up.
    
    During the Ebola period more people were dying in W Africa of of motor vehicle accidents than Ebola.
    
    15 4
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    May 25, 2020 9:20am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Trump didn’t seem to think it was a beat up:
      
      President Obama has a major meeting on the N.Y.C. Ebola outbreak, with people flying in from all over the country, but decided to play golf!
      
      Among other criticisms, too tedious to mention.
      
      3 20
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      May 25, 2020 9:27am
    - Tall Man
      
      FFS, why the downtick?
      
      Today is Monday, downtick anyone?
      
      10 9
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      May 25, 2020 9:37am
      - Tall Man
        
        Woo hoo, 4 already 🙂
        
        Keep it coming losers.
        
        6 5
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        May 25, 2020 10:24am
- towaka
  
  The thing you missed Steve was the “everything” bubble started to bust in September last year. The Fed was throwing the kitchen sink at the Repo market then which was a re-run of the GFC all over again.
  
  So the virus was convenient for central bankers as well to have a scapegoat for the coming reset of the financial system.. with them and pollies ending up with more power of course!
  
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  May 25, 2020 1:25pm
- Nermal
  
  Trey Gowdy always sounds great. I used to be impressed. Trouble is, that’s all he is. All words and no actions. Or as his fellow Americans say: All hat and no cattle
  
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  May 25, 2020 4:54pm
  - Batman
    
    Cue the infamous footage of him being asked what Republicans got out of the Benghazi show trial hearing with Clinton.
    
    He couldn’t find anything of note to talk about which served their purpose.
    
    2 1
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    May 25, 2020 5:07pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    As a prosecutor he has a 100% success rate
    
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    May 26, 2020 7:57am
Simon

Biden what a train wreck. Senile, corrupt & a sexual pervert. Perfect for the left. But so bad will likely be replaced.
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May 25, 2020 8:29am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  Senile, corrupt & a sexual pervert
  
  Great. Now do Trump…
  
  4 36
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  May 25, 2020 9:20am
  - Tall Man
    
    Elected, Elected, Elected … Re-elected.
    
    🙂
    
    18 3
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    May 25, 2020 10:24am
Simon

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Todd Muller help the communities, best for families blah blah blah.

Where are the fucking tax cuts? Help the infirm, elderly & vulnerable. Lock up criminal scum up. Stay away from most else.

Wide ranging tax cuts and targeted assistance thats the best you can do for the communities.
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May 25, 2020 8:35am
- Tony Stuart
  
  FFS Simon. He’d been in the role for 90 minutes when he made that speech. You can hardly expect him to unveil a full suite of policies.
  
  You’ll get plenty of policy from National in the next few weeks, and it will be very different to whatever Labour is promising.
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:03am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    Great Tony. So whatever labour might be proposing, whatever national proposes will be better? You really do have a faith-based approach to politics, don’t you?
    
    2 37
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    May 25, 2020 9:22am
    - Tony Stuart
      
      You’re the one using the word “better” mikenmild. My comment was that policies to be released by National will differentiate them from Labour. It’s up to the voters to decide which party has the better suite of policies.
      
      29 1
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      May 25, 2020 9:49am
    - Bobba Fret
      
      Labour do not have a great track record. How is Kiwi Build going? Have we got even 400 houses yet?
      
      30 1
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      May 25, 2020 9:58am
    - projectman
      
      A faith-based approach is all that Labour supporters have to go on.
      
      8 1
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      May 25, 2020 11:39am
  - Mobile Michael
    
    No, he is Bolger. Not 1991 Bolger standing with Ruth Richardson but 2020 Bolger who thinks the Greens are stingy to poor people.
    
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    May 25, 2020 9:28am
- Tall Man
  
  Day 1 Simon. Even god took a week 😉
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:36am
I remember when

Went for a blood test the other day.
Chap taking the blood said: “You’ll get a little prick”.
Obviously didn’t realise how old I was.
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May 25, 2020 8:38am
- Tony Stuart
  
  That reminds me of a quip Muldoon made when Jim McLay rolled him as National Party leader. Asked if he would be a thorn in McLay’s side, Muldoon said “No, I’ll just be a little prick”.
  
  And he was 😀
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:05am
WaveyDavey

Given that National apparently doesn’t have a policy(s) that resonate with the public, lacks leadership charisma, can’t out-spend, out-cuddle or out-left* Labour and that its current leader is a dead-man-walking after he loses the election

Who will be the next leader of the National Party and the next leader of the opposition?

*they’ve already moved so far to the left of a traditional conservative position that I, a lifelong Labour voter, can vote for them. They’re more a technocratic Blairite party these days.
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May 25, 2020 8:44am
- Lee C
  
  Bishop.
  Pretty soon there’ll be people lining up to tell us what a splendid chap he is, you’ll see.
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:08am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Nah, it’d be a bit extreme to picky Muller now, and then drop him straight after the election. He’ll have at least a year, maybe two.
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:23am
  - burt
    
    You lefties are all in a flap about a fresh face in National, it’s funny to see how little faith you actually have in Jacinda that you need to go so hard and early on him.
    
    26 3
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    May 25, 2020 9:59am
    - MCos
      
      Fresh face is a bit of a stretch.
      
      He has a typical, solid-as, sensible, National Party sort of face.
      
      6 2
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      May 25, 2020 10:16am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      What have I written to attack Muller?
      
      4 15
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      May 25, 2020 10:22am
      - Michael NZ
        
        It’s always your tone Mikey.
        Content it one thing, even I up tick you occaisio ally.
        Your tone lets you down all the time.
        You drive by too.
        No one like a leftie driveby, even middle of the road types..
        
        8 5
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        May 25, 2020 11:31am
      - WaveyDavey
        
        Many of the posters here exhibit the same knee-jerk tribal reaction as the LoC blogs
        
        It’s just as much an echo chamber as them.
        
        They are wilfully blind to the clear fact that National is going to tank badly as the coming GE regardless of who’s leading the party.
        
        Rather than planning for the future they’ll stick their head in the sand and repeat the same attack-lines that have been proven not to work previously.
        
        I’ve asked several times for one positive policy that will change a soft-Labour supporter’s mind (or even an undecided) and no-one seems able to answer with anything other that “yeah, but the other side…” Absolutely no different and just as lazy as “nine long years.”
        
        3 3
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        May 25, 2020 1:42pm
      - MCos
        
        Yeah!
        It’s your bloody tone, mate.
        
        1 0
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        May 25, 2020 5:02pm
I remember when

Is the MAGA cap a symbol of racism or is it just a thorn in the side of the Democrats which must be removed at any cost.
Is the MAGA cap considered to be the difference between winning and losing the Presidential race.
Perhaps that is the racism they are drawing attention to – the Presidential Race.
What better way to get rid of it than by imply it is racist and then find some examples where people wearing them might include the far right.
Let’s be fair the caps do represent RACISM.
It is racism against OLD WHITE MEN.
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May 25, 2020 8:53am
- Critical Thinker
  
  “Make America Great Again” (often abbreviated as MAGA) is a campaign slogan used in American politics that was popularized by Donald Trump in his successful 2016 presidential campaign. Ronald Reagan used the similar slogan “Let’s make America great again” in his successful 1980 presidential campaign.
  
  Bill Clinton also used the phrase in speeches during his successful 1992 presidential campaign and again in a radio commercial aired for his wife Hillary Clinton’s 2008 presidential primary campaign.
  
  African-American & Hispanic-American unemployment was at its lowest rate ever recorded before the China-virus hit.
  
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  May 25, 2020 10:18am
  - Batman
    
    The difference now is the ‘wink-wink nudge nudge’ effect that the Trump version has for parts of his base.
    
    The KKK take it as a hint
    The homophobes take it as a hint
    The fundy section of the gun community take it as a hint.
    The Christian fundamentalists take it as a hint.
    
    It’s led to a rather unpleasant soup of armed wide-boys on the streets, shootings, online mobs, and general undemocratic behaviour from a relatively small block of emboldened fuckwits.
    
    3 17
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    May 25, 2020 10:36am
    - Critical Thinker
      
      Here’s just a few of the ‘wink-wink nudge nudge’ policies of Trump, in regards to these 4 groups you named: ?
      
      – African-American & Hispanic-American unemployment at its lowest rate ever recorded.
      
      – No more race riots, like there was under the divisive Obama administration.
      
      – Moved U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem.
      
      – Women’s unemployment reached its lowest rate in 65 years.
      
      – Appointed the first openly gay person to a cabinet-level position.
      
      – Launched an unprecedented international campaign to decriminalize homosexuality across the world.
      
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      May 25, 2020 11:11am
- Michael NZ
  
  If Trump gets relected, I suspect NZ could benefit from the leader of the country having a MAGA hat on his Political keepsakes shelf.
  
  Better than a gobby female harpy, slagging the USA’s leader out of the side of her mouth.
  
  Just saying.
  
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  May 25, 2020 11:33am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    gobby female harpy
    
    That sort of misogyny will upset Kiwiblog regulars.
    
    2 6
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    May 25, 2020 12:39pm
Maggie Pie

My partner has been an Honorary Ranger with Fish & Game NZ for a number of years.

He tweets:
‘Opening Day 23 May. Dawn. Banks of Waikato River’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ntSKVPiJ4
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May 25, 2020 8:55am
- Tall Man
  
  Sounded a lot like that around here on Saturday morning.
  
  I’ve never really taken to duck shooting, could be the early starts …….
  
  What I want to see from Todd Muller and National is a compulsory magpie hunting quota 🙂
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:34am
  - James Stephenson
    
    Add mynah birds to that.
    
    7 3
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    May 25, 2020 10:04am
Fletch

I posted last in last night’s GD, so not sure how many saw it, but it seems the libs are running scared of Muller, judging by the way they are lashing out, and by the way they and the media are fixated on the dreaded “MAGA hat”.

I’m a exhausted of the MAGA hat debate without the context of a man who voted as Trump would on every law affecting women and minorities.

We can’t ignore the substance behind MAGA and how terrifying it is if that shrill bullying ethos becomes casually mainstream in NZ politics

golriz ghahraman

Anybody would think he had a swastika in his cabinet, the way they are acting.
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May 25, 2020 8:56am
- Lee C
  
  I think the ba-zing is implied, Fletch.
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:10am
- Swifty
  
  “Terrifying!”, “Bullying!”
  
  It’s pathetic Fletch.
  
  The hat is a piece of memorabilia sitting alongside many others – that some have become fixated on it shows two things; the narrow little bubble some of our community live in and how Green MPs are so grossly out of touch with the major concerns of NZers.
  
  Ghahraman clearly has far too much time on her hands.
  
  She’s a finger-wagging, hectoring, lecturing, know-it-all, silly little bore.
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:12am
- SmokerGuy
  
  It’s not like he stood beaming next to a mass murderer or something!
  
  27 1
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  May 25, 2020 9:17am
- burt
  
  I think she’s quietly trying to tell us that anyone who wears a hijab is a terrorist. If the hat fits right !
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:23am
- Justitia
  
  I see “Dr” Siouxsie Wiles has offered her advice to the unwashed on Muller’s MAGA hat: https://twitter.com/SiouxsieW. Has any circus recently reported one of their clowns missing?
  
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  May 25, 2020 9:24am
  - burt
    
    There is a village with her face on all their milk cartons.
    
    26 1
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    May 25, 2020 9:54am
  - Michael NZ
    
    thanks for that.
    and she has a vote.
    frightening, she’s education doesn’t equal wisdom.
    Thomas Sowell probably has a quote about her and education..
    
    7 2
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    May 25, 2020 11:42am
  - Pharmachick
    
    No air quotes required – she has an earned doctorate of philosophy in Microbiology. Whether or not she should be commenting on hats is a whole other thing…
    
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    May 25, 2020 2:44pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      I have commented before on the odd tendency for the ill-educated to consider only medical practitioners to be ‘real’ doctors.
      
      2 3
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      May 25, 2020 3:13pm
- James Stephenson
  
  What odds would you give that Golly Gee has a Che Guevara T-shirt in her cupboard?
  
  21 1
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  May 25, 2020 9:33am
  - niggly
    
    Perhaps there needs to be a tv show called “show us your cupboards”!
    
    Could be quite revealing as far-leftie activists show us which “revolutionaries” they support (Che, Mao … Keith Locke might have a Pol Pot one)!
    
    Anyway when the Greens first went to Ihumātao last year, Golriz turned up in a pristine, fresh off the printer (and inappropriately) “Free West Papua” t-shirt!
    
    Presumably the good people of West Papua who are suffering from real oppression, beatings, death and imprisonment for airing their views were wondering what their plight had to do with a Green MP who once defended people associated with genocide?
    
    Clearly the irony and hypocrisy is beyond Golriz’s comprehension!
    
    https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/31-07-2019/the-occupation-of-ihumatao-week-one/
    
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    May 25, 2020 10:54am
- Tony Stuart
  
  Is that the same Golriz Ghahraman who was absolutely silent when her party supported legislation giving the Police power to enter private dwellings without a warrant?
  
  37 1
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  May 25, 2020 10:02am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Come Sept 19 I will wear a MAGA or Trump 2020 hat to the polling booth
  
  19 4
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  May 25, 2020 10:22am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Well, at least that will help innocent passers-by avoid a moron.
    
    6 25
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    May 25, 2020 10:24am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Whatever you say Mike
      
      8 3
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      May 25, 2020 11:24am
    - burt
      
      Just like we know that anyone who wears a hijab is a terrorist? That’s what you’re saying isn’t it – that the hat signifies a clear and indisputable trait in the wearer (or owner) in all cases?
      
      9 3
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      May 25, 2020 11:48am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        The hijab signals a female’s agreement with Muslim cultural norms about modesty.
        The MAGA hat signals its wearer’s endorsement of with racism, misogyny, sexual assault, corruption, and ignorance.
        
        5 10
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        May 25, 2020 12:42pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Fuck your TDS is bad Mike. Go take your meds
        
        8 4
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        May 25, 2020 1:05pm
      - burt
        
        The hijab signals a female’s agreement with Muslim cultural norms about modesty.
        
        Or it represents that she knows if caught out in public without it on that she will be stoned to death.
        
        You’ll note I put ‘owner’ in the comment above, as in the owner of the person wearing the symbol of being subjugated and being a lesser human being than her husband.
        
        11 3
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        May 25, 2020 1:55pm
      - Hollyfield
        
        “The MAGA hat signals its wearer’s endorsement of with racism, misogyny, sexual assault, corruption, and ignorance.”
        
        Far too much power is being attributed to a HAT.
        
        Talk in the office today: people now want to buy hats for themselves just to make a point about how stupid this all is.
        
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        May 25, 2020 6:05pm
artemisia

Pania Newton has emerged from lockdown obscurity to demand Fletchers get with the programme and give up Ihumatao land for nothing. Because Covid-19.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/05/fletcher-called-on-to-return-ihumatao-block-after-collecting-68-million-in-taxpayer-funded-wage-subsidies.html
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May 25, 2020 9:00am
- TWEEDSE
  
  Sounds like a difficult conversation, over to you Jacinda…err Jacinda…where did she go. JACINDA…crickets.
  
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  May 25, 2020 12:01pm
I remember when

Should we blame Neil Ferguson just because his computer model had a VIRUS.
14 0
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May 25, 2020 9:01am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Yes. He should have had better hygiene.
  
  7 1
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  May 25, 2020 10:11am
  - burt
    
    He’s washed his hands of any responsibility – does that count?
    
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    May 25, 2020 11:51am
burt

When we all voted to go for eliminadion rather than flattening the curve we all knew that a vaccine was both difficult to make and would take time, it’s a shame we didn’t know this when we all voted to stay locked down for a few years for our own safety.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/121585176/coronavirus-covid19-vaccine-long-way-off-nz-could-be-bottom-of-list
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May 25, 2020 9:22am
- Tall Man
  
  I didn’t get asked.
  
  14 2
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  May 25, 2020 9:28am
  - burt
    
    I think your memory is incorrect Comrade, the sign always said ‘no animal shall sleep in a bed with sheets‘ and that ‘no animal shall drink alcohol to excess‘.
    
    13 1
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    May 25, 2020 9:51am
    - Tall Man
      
      Pffttt, excess. No such thing 🙂
      
      11 2
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      May 25, 2020 9:55am
- WaveyDavey
  
  I look forward to seeing how many downvotes you’ll get for this comment
  
  It seems that even here on KB the blinkers are on when it comes the vaccine
  
  Even the best estimate of a working vaccine candidate by September then needs 18 months of safety and effectiveness testing before going into full-scale production.
  
  Then add on 2-3yrs to ramp up production before adding anything between 1-3yrs before NZ gets a sniff at it
  
  So NZ faces anywhere between 5 and 8 years before we get fully vaccinated.
  
  Those of us with other passports are probably going to use them to jump that queue btw
  
  As I’ve asked previously what’s the plan for while we’re waiting? Neither Labour or National appear to have any ideas other than permanent confinement
  
  Oh, and some of us DID know this before we went into lockdown and were asking what the long-term strategy was. We just got drowned-out in the noise
  
  19 1
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  May 25, 2020 9:43am
  - burt
    
    Yep, anyone who even mentioned herd immunity was shouted at as wanting thousands to die.
    
    25 1
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    May 25, 2020 9:52am
    - artemisia
      
      And especially wanting granny to die.
      
      14 1
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      May 25, 2020 9:57am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    National will not implement permanent confinement. That’s just a commie control trick. Who’s going to pay for it both financially, socially and in health? NOT DOABLE.
    
    15 2
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    May 25, 2020 10:14am
    - MCos
      
      Nobody is permanently confined except prisoners, etc.
      You can walk out your front door right now and do stuff.
      Nobody is stopping you leaving the country, except there may be a struggle to find somewhere to go.
      
      4 7
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      May 25, 2020 10:28am
- WaveyDavey
  
  Oh and f*cking finally the MSM is waking up to the reality of our situation
  
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  May 25, 2020 10:21am
- Michael NZ
  
  I wonder why we’re at the bottom of the list for the Chinese Virus Vaccine?
  
  3 1
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  May 25, 2020 11:44am
I remember when

I have traditionally wasted my vote.
I am going to vote Labour this election.
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May 25, 2020 9:24am
- rangitoto
  
  So no change.
  
  15 0
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  May 25, 2020 10:08am
- RW Capitalist
  
  Decided to waste OUR money instead?
  
  5 0
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  May 25, 2020 10:48am
Gulag1917

New Zealand missing in action again
Nearly 200 political figures from around the world on Saturday decried Beijing’s proposed national security laws for Hong Kong, including 17 members of the U.S. Congress, as international tensions grow over the proposal to set up Chinese government intelligence bases in the territory.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/24/chinas-new-hong-kong-laws-a-breach-of-agreement-foreign-officials-say.html
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May 25, 2020 9:25am
- Jack5
  
  What is Muller’s policy on Hong Kong?
  
  4 0
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  May 25, 2020 10:15am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Our foreign minister released a statement. That’s about as tough as NZ ever manages…
  
  5 5
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  May 25, 2020 10:27am
- chaos
  
  Blood hell, not again, can you people not actually read the local news before you make stupid comments that New Zealand hasn’t done something that it has
  
  https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=winston+peters+hong+kong&client=safari&hl=en-nz&sxsrf=ALeKk03MBLixl4YID3g1PGAA-8c6IyeJCg:1590364767312&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiN_pK42s3pAhVZaCsKHauPAaIQ_AUoAnoECAsQBA&biw=1173&bih=762
  
  2 1
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  May 25, 2020 12:00pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    No, they really can’t.
    
    3 5
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    May 25, 2020 12:58pm
  - Libertarians are right
    
    Where amongst what he said did he actually criticise them? Our Government didn’t sign the letter openly calling them out and instead Winston just says some things so that people like you can pretend (incorrectly) that they’ve done something. Maybe you should have actually read the article you linked to?
    
    “We have a strong interest in seeing confidence maintained in the ‘one country, two systems’ principle under which Hong Kong is assured of a high degree of autonomy,” Peters says in a statement on Saturday.
    
    “Legislating on Hong Kong’s behalf without the direct participation of its people and legislature would challenge that principle.
    
    “It is important that any national security legislation is enacted in a way that respects the fundamental rights and freedoms of the people of Hong Kong and has their support.”
    
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    May 25, 2020 1:24pm
cmm

What’s killing people so far this year?

Motor vehicle deaths: 550k
AIDS: 350k
TB: 600k
Malaria: 370k
Diabetes:1.8M
CV19:343k

Destroying the world economy is such fun. Let’s do it every year!
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May 25, 2020 9:37am
- burt
  
  Hopefully nobody was injured in the earthquake this morning or we’ll all need to evacuate NZ until the risk is over.
  
  27 1
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  May 25, 2020 9:41am
  - cmm
    
    I’ve got a model that shows that the Alpine Fault is going to deliver a M9 EQ sometime soon.
    
    If I also turn on the bit in my model where it triggers an M11 EQ in Auckland then 500k people will die.
    
    19 2
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    May 25, 2020 9:55am
    - burt
      
      Models, HOW DARE YOU!
      
      I can see the tremors in the air.
      
      23 2
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      May 25, 2020 9:56am
    - MCos
      
      That’s why half the commercial buildings in Wellington are either empty or required to be, or have been strengthened.
      BTW
      Do you think White Is tourism should be closed down just because a few people might get killed in the occasional eruption?
      Figure it out on your slide rule.
      
      4 8
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      May 25, 2020 10:36am
      - cmm
        
        “Do you think White Is tourism should be closed down just because a few people might get killed in the occasional eruption?”
        
        Certainly not. Leave it to them to decide.
        
        We let people do all sorts of high risk activities, who are we to decide which they should be allowed to do and which they should not be allowed to do?
        
        White Island killed a few. Whoopie-do.
        
        How many died last year from getting into trouble swimming? How many died on the roads? How many died from falling down stairs? How many from eating too much KFC?
        
        Somehow though, people are extremely irrational. They freak out about ridiculous things.
        
        That’s the problem with mathematical models – they just tell you what you want to hear.
        
        13 2
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        May 25, 2020 10:50am
Thought Criminal

Jacinda in Muller “He said he wants to move away from being oppositional for the sake of it and I welcome that – we have a global pandemic we need to be focused on.”

Has she’s forgotten her own parties toxic 9 years in opposition hating on everything the government did? And then once in power promptly reversing those complaints? “Progressive” TPP anyone?
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May 25, 2020 9:42am
- burt
  
  She’s seen the writing on the wall and now she wants to pretend she’s always been about cooperation.
  
  She’s such a lightweight. I wonder if she was touching her nose while she said that.
  
  27 1
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  May 25, 2020 9:44am
  - Don Beckett
    
    Yes, holding it back from growing longer.
    
    14 0
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    May 25, 2020 10:12am
- Libertarians are right
  
  Amy Adams (I think) tried to get an amendment through to the paid maternity leave bill when Labour got in. She wanted fathers and mothers to be able to take the leave concurrently if they wanted to.
  
  Labour blocked it because National came up with it. This has happened multiple times with this Government. They oppose National on principle more than National do to them.
  
  25 1
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  May 25, 2020 10:19am
  - Thought Criminal
    
    Labour often bahve like bitter, petty individuals. Perhaps that because they are.
    
    13 3
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    May 25, 2020 11:38am
- yossarian
  
  Of course she doesn’t remember, she spent 9 years doing nothing, except getting her ass kicked by Nikki Kaye and building up her social media profile
  
  19 1
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  May 25, 2020 10:31am
Happychappy

Has Jacinda Ardern decided to spend the day in Levin today surveying the damage from the Earthquake or has no one died or been seriously injured to acquire her presence to cry on peoples shoulder’s.
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May 25, 2020 9:50am
- burt
  
  There is no “Levin costume” to dress up in so don’t hold your breath.
  
  25 1
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  May 25, 2020 10:01am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    Yeah, there is; she could wear a borrowed Nomads patch. Nothing says “I Am Levin” more than that!
    
    21 2
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    May 25, 2020 10:04am
    - burt
      
      True, and I guess that group have enough hatred in their costume to make it a perfect symbol of inclusiveness.
      
      11 1
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      May 25, 2020 10:07am
    - Tall Man
      
      Kicked them out a long time ago.
      
      Think Wanganui is their new base 😉
      
      9 2
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      May 25, 2020 10:20am
- Nickc2
  
  She will no doubt be dressed in a hard hat, hi-vis jacket and high heels. 10,000 cameras will already be there and some chicky babe who knows F-all about F-all with a list of meaningless questions and puff related inuendos. No doubt, Todd Muller and Nikki Kaye will get the blame. Too many cows perhaps.
  
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  May 25, 2020 11:30am
- david
  
  No way would she go to Levin today, someone mislaid her HARDHAT
  
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  May 25, 2020 1:13pm
-D

Absolutely dreadful performance by Kathryn Ryan this morning with the new Leader Of The Opposition.

Such arrogance our media seems to carry balanced on its shoulder.
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May 25, 2020 9:56am
- Michael NZ
  
  i don’t listen to her, she a tool for the left.
  like that women who sits in the middle on tv1 in the morning.
  
  fair balanced honest not.
  
  7 2
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  May 25, 2020 11:50am
  - MCos
    
    So what you’re saying is you don’t know.
    
    0 1
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    May 25, 2020 5:25pm
- MCos
  
  I listened to that interview and came away with a different impression.
  She asked questions and had to constantly encourage him to answer without launching into a campaign speech.
  A typical example was the vexed question of what to do about NZF.
  He wanted a bob each way. There’s no way we’ll work with Winston, but that doesn’t mean we won’t.
  BTW
  No mention of the MAGA cap, by either party.
  
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  May 25, 2020 5:24pm
WaveyDavey

Who’s up for a read?

In China, Big Brother really is watching you.

It turns out he is increasingly watching us, too. There are nearly 400,000 Chinese students in American universities. Thanks to Article 7 of the Chinese National Intelligence Law of 2017, each of these students is required to ‘support, assist and cooperate with state intelligence work according to law’. In other words, the United States is home to some 400,000 potential spies from China. As I write, the FBI is investigating more than 1,000 cases of Chinese theft of US intellectual property.

This article is in The Spectator’s June 2020 US edition. Subscribe here to get yours.

Is Cui Tiankai, the Chinese ambassador to the United States, Hillary Clinton in drag? I ask because when he takes to the pages of the Washington Post to lecture us that ‘It is time to end the blame game’ with respect to China’s role in helping to spread the coronavirus, I could almost believe I was back at that Congressional hearing after Muslim lunatics attacked the American consulate in Benghazi and murdered four Americans, including the US ambassador. The dulcet strains of the then Secretary of State Clinton skirling ‘at this point what difference does it make?’ are ringing in my ears. It’s ‘time to move on’, she said later, just as China’s ambassador half-pleaded, half-warned about the ‘mindset’ urging a ‘decoupling’ of America from China. ‘The United States would not emerge as a winner from this scenario,’ he said.

Ambassador Cui writes that: ‘China has done its best to share information about the virus.’ Ha, ha, ha. In fact, it dissembled about the nature of the virus, obscuring the date of the first cases, insisting that there was no human-to-human transmission, even as, in mid-January, it ordered its consulates around the world to stock up on face masks and other protective gear in anticipation of a global outbreak. Chinese doctors and scientists who tried to sound the alarm early on suddenly disappeared, even as the regime destroyed evidence and stonewalled requests from western scientists for firsthand information about the earliest victims. Ambassador Cui is paid to lie for his country. We do not have to be naive and believe him.

But many of us do. Much of the western media is behaving like the World Health Organization, i.e., like a wholly owned subsidiary of the Chinese Communist party. As Bill Gertz points out in his just-published book How China’s Communist Party Made the World Sick, China’s behavior regarding the coronavirus is like the Soviet Union’s behavior after the deadly explosion at the nuclear reactor in Chernobyl. ‘The Chinese lied to cover up a major natural disaster — only now the damage is not simply the irradiation of an area in and around a city in Ukraine. The Chinese have inflicted grave damage on the world economy and put half the world’s population out of work, at least temporarily.’

There is certainly some truth to the argument that free trade is a civilizing force. There are no flies on Adam Smith. But its beneficent effects depend absolutely on a principle that Donald Trump has been quick to insist upon: reciprocity. Free trade is not free if only one side honors its contracts, if private property is subject to confiscation, if dealings among parties are not honest and open.

At least since Richard Nixon’s overtures to China in the 1970s, the hope was that trade with the US and other parts of the free world would soften China’s totalitarian ideology. For a time, it seemed to be working. But since the ascension of Xi Jinping in 2012 (and indeed for years before), China has ruthlessly exploited the openness of western countries for its own purposes while maintaining an increasingly harsh system at home.

I won’t go into the horrific story of more than a million Uighurs herded into concentration camps and subjected to forced labor and systematic abuse in the name of ‘reeducation’. Think only of the recent introduction of a regimen of ‘social credit’ throughout China. The implementation of this system took some western observers by surprise. It shouldn’t have. Totalitarian regimes have always endeavored to control every aspect of their citizens’ lives. Communism, as Lenin observed, means keeping track of everything. Want to ride a bus? Open a bank account? Get a job? Visit a far-away friend? Let’s take a look at your docility index and good behavior, Comrade, and then we’ll tell you what you can and cannot do.

The dream of total control took a big step forward with the perfection of advanced surveillance technology. Cameras are everywhere, feeding images to computers that record, docket and apply sophisticated facial recognition to the party apparat. In China, Big Brother really is watching you.

It turns out he is increasingly watching us, too. There are nearly 400,000 Chinese students in American universities. Thanks to Article 7 of the Chinese National Intelligence Law of 2017, each of these students is required to ‘support, assist and cooperate with state intelligence work according to law’. In other words, the United States is home to some 400,000 potential spies from China. As I write, the FBI is investigating more than 1,000 cases of Chinese theft of US intellectual property. According to FBI director Christopher Wray, ‘They’re not just targeting defense-sector companies. The Chinese have targeted companies producing everything from proprietary rice and corn seeds to software for wind turbines to high-end medical devices.’ The price tag for this theft, he estimates, is anywhere from $300 billion to $600 billion.

Ambassador Cui warns against the ‘decoupling’ of the Untied States from China. I think it cannot happen fast enough. The United States has become increasingly dependent on China to supply critical pharmaceuticals, from antibiotics to blood-pressure and heart medicine and beyond. In March, just as the coronavirus panic was gearing up in the United States, an article in a Chinese state-run media outlet warned that China ‘could impose pharmaceutical export controls which would plunge America into “the mighty sea of coronavirus”.’

It is beyond time to rethink our relationship with China, to level the playing field and demand honesty and reciprocity in our dealings. As Bill Gertz notes in his book, ‘It is now clear that decades of international engagement and cooperation with Communist China was a mistake that seriously undermined fundamental American values of freedom, democracy, openness, honesty, and free markets… The time to act is now.’
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May 25, 2020 10:04am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Yeah right, sez the mouse to the elephant. Keep out of the USA-China war, its going to get much worse.
  
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  May 25, 2020 10:17am
  - WaveyDavey
    
    So you didn’t actually read it then?
    
    Had you bothered you would have seen this is about the USA not NZ
    
    8 3
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    May 25, 2020 10:22am
    - KevO'Brien
      
      Anyone being seen taking sides at present is risking it–the Aussies have lost their barley trade with China.
      I’ve seen enough international skirmishes over the years to suggest that this one has barely started. We built a crushing amount of commercial interaction with China so they have the advantage.
      
      6 2
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      May 25, 2020 12:44pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    That’s the sell-out line actively promoted by our two main political parties.
    
    7 8
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    May 25, 2020 10:30am
  - Jack5
    
    It will be hard to keep out of the row when Australia, even more important economically to NZ than China, is siding with America.
    
    We need the trans-Tasman bubble, we need Aussie tourists especially in winter Queenstown, we need CER, we depend on the Australian banks to service our business system.
    
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    May 25, 2020 10:43am
  - kowtow
    
    Why should NZ keep out when our whole political system is a target of China’s influence buying ?
    
    7 0
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    May 25, 2020 12:03pm
    - WaveyDavey
      
      And those who take issue with China find their homes burgled.
      
      Who would have thought?
      
      2 0
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      May 25, 2020 2:56pm
    - burt
      
      Maybe we could just say no political donations from people with Chinese sounding names?
      
      2 2
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      May 25, 2020 3:01pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Or our politicians could simply refuse to accept donations from people associated with the Beijing dictatorship. Or not promote as MPs people like Jian Yang or Raymond Huo.
        
        3 2
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        May 25, 2020 3:29pm
      - burt
        
        It would also help if they declared them transparently. There is an SFO case against one of the current government ministers over this isn’t there – remember last time that same guy was caught lying about his election expenses, big strong Helen Clark didn’t even sack him, rather he just had to re-file his corrected expense return.
        
        That was a government of a new standard of openness and accountability, not quite as strong as the current most transparent ever government that are desperately trying to ignore the current shenanigans.
        
        2 1
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        May 25, 2020 6:20pm
  - WaveyDavey
    
    You really think we’re not part of it already?
    
    CCP spies are and have been very active in NZ – look out the academic who has been burgled
    
    And if you don’t think that there aren’t operatives swiping NZ IP you’re very naive
    
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    May 25, 2020 2:55pm
- Jack5
  
  What will the Muller-Kaye policy be on Jian Yang, the former employee of the Chinese intelligence system, brought into Parliament as a National list MP? They have the chance to act where Bridges did not.
  
  And the Muller-Kaye policy on the “Blue Dragons”. From the National web site:
  
  The Blue Dragons is a group of New Zealand National Party supporters who represent a strong voice for New Zealanders of Chinese descent in Simon Bridges’ National Party. The Blue Dragons has members nationwide and is growing fast under the leadership of MP Dr Jian Yang and Hon Simon Bridges.
  
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  May 25, 2020 10:20am
  - Michael NZ
    
    there yet another reason to get rid of Soiman.
    how taken over is National?
    
    3 3
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    May 25, 2020 11:52am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Very taken over?
      
      3 1
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      May 25, 2020 3:29pm
- Critical Thinker
  
  China lied
  WHO complied
  Press denied
  People died
  
  “Don’t trust China! China is asshoe!” – The Great Philosopher
  
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  May 25, 2020 11:34am
- Michael NZ
  
  Wavay
  link?
  
  3 2
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  May 25, 2020 11:51am
  - WaveyDavey
    
    https://spectator.us/blame-china-communist-wuhan-coronavirus/
    
    But you’ll need an account or knowledge of the Dark Arts
    
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    May 25, 2020 2:57pm
cmm

More unintended consequences of overreacting….

Guardian (yeah, I know, big pinch of salt), says that CV19 could turn back the clock 20 years on Malaria in Sub-Saharan Africa causing an extra 350k deaths from malaria in that region this year.

The numbers are possibly accurate, but it would be wrong to blame CV19 per se. A disease can’t stop the delivery of a mosquito net.

No, the real reason is the disruption of the supply chain caused by all the lockdowns. Just like we can’t get 5kg flour in shops and can’t get our prescriptions filled in NZ, sub-Sahara is likely to be short on anti-malaria supplies: nets, drugs, etc.

Rack up another negative 350k “lives saved” to CV19 lockdowns.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/apr/23/pandemic-could-turn-back-the-clock-20-years-on-malaria-deaths-warns-who
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May 25, 2020 10:05am
- WaveyDavey
  
  You know what – I care about my family, my friends, my neighbours, my fellow countrymen right now
  
  Sub-saharan Africa can f*ck right for a while thanks
  
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  May 25, 2020 11:35am
  - WaveyDavey
    
    F*ck right off
    
    of course
    
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    May 25, 2020 1:46pm
  - cmm
    
    WD: Certainly, they are not our look-out.
    
    But it is worth noting:
    1) This is a very clear example of the impacts of lockdowns. We suffer many of them too such as reduced access to medicines, hospital outpatients etc. While these won’t kill hundreds of thousands in NZ, they will kill some.
    2) WHO clearly did not look at the big picture when they jumped in the sack with China… or maybe they did. Perhaps they are trying to break the world and make it easier for China to do their new colonial gig.
    
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    May 25, 2020 2:35pm
    - WaveyDavey
      
      Check out how the head of the WHO got his job and his background and you’ll find your answer
      
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      May 25, 2020 2:58pm
Overworked

I have to say first impressions were good, but a few doubts are starting to creep in, not least because of the absurd handholding with his wife for the cameras as they headed for his first press conference.
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May 25, 2020 10:19am
- Hollyfield
  
  Trump gets criticised because his wife didn’t hold his hand.
  
  Muller gets criticised because his wife did hold his hand.
  
  Is it too much to hope that voting decisions can be based on things just a little tiny bit more important than holding hands.
  
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  May 25, 2020 6:10pm
RW Capitalist

Regarding resource management changes.
Good to see they are FINALLY looking at that re carports etc.
Small/ insignificant change, but
Something they haven’t said
Since councils are the ones charging for these RMA consents, will they be putting the rates up to cover for the loss in revenue?
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May 25, 2020 10:43am
oldfella

(Accidentally posted this in Price piece: meant to go here…)
I see Cindy was being interviewed on TV this morning when the earthquake hit. She didn’t get too fussed about it as the Beehive is one of the safest buildings in the capital due to its extensive earthquake strengthening. But wait now for the international outpouring of praise and genuflections… And headlines such as…
“Brave Jacinda Stares Down Killer Earthquake – Shows Idiot Trump How to Really Handle a Crisis.:
Any improvements on that? ?
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May 25, 2020 10:47am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  “If anyone needs money to tide them over the earthquake, just give us a call. This one’s on me”
  
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  May 25, 2020 11:29am
Maggie Pie

If someone knocks on your door, knock back from the inside.
They’ll go away.

Trust me on this.
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May 25, 2020 10:51am
- MH
  
  shut the door first before trying this at home.
  
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  May 25, 2020 11:22am
Inandout

Media Works laying off 130, Stuff bought for $1, CoL gives money to non workers until the election. We live in interesting times.
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May 25, 2020 11:07am
Critical Thinker

Drew Pavlou is an Australian student at the University of Queensland. But he might not be for long. After staging several high profile demonstrations in support of Hong Kong protesters and criticizing China’s human rights abuses, his university wanted to expel him from school. Turns out the university has very close ties to the Chinese Communist Party. And it’s sparked media outrage in Australia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zs5gWjkFy0

I wouldn’t be surprised if pro Hong Kong democracy uni students get the same treatment here in NZ as well ?
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May 25, 2020 11:14am
- kowtow
  
  Peaceful protest yes , but many don’t realise that there’s a very radical , violent and possibly nihilistic fringe in HK who want to up the ante and perhaps stoke a worse outcome for the majority there .
  
  ‘A Hong Kong lawyer was badly beaten by several people clad in black following an argument just a few streets away from protests over Beijing’s proposed national security law for the city on Sunday.’
  
  https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/3085867/hong-kong-lawyer-attacked-black-clad-mob-near-protests
  
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  May 25, 2020 12:07pm
Maggy Wassilieff

The treatment of Asylum Seekers in New Zealand has worsened under the Labour government and pleas for change are falling on deaf ears,

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/first-up/audio/2018747801/nz-s-treatment-of-asylum-seekers-worse-under-labour-govt

It’s actually a CoL Government…and looks like the Greens (Golriz Gharhaman) are MIA.
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May 25, 2020 11:19am
- mandk
  
  Well, knock me down with a feather!
  
  Yet another thing the CoL has failed to deliver.
  
  We have already heard today about strep throat and rheumatic fever worsening under this gov’t.
  
  Will we get the hat trick?
  
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  May 25, 2020 12:17pm
- mandk
  
  Golriz is too busy cuddling up to a visa overstayer and getting her knickers in a twist about a hat.
  
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  May 25, 2020 12:19pm
MH

unless these virus 2D models can be replicated with lego blocks then and only then will I subscribe.
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May 25, 2020 11:20am
Cod Weyne

Stuff chief executive Sinead Boucher has bought the company for $1.
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May 25, 2020 11:31am
- Inandout
  
  CW, so I bought the company.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf22bddvLnc
  
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  May 25, 2020 11:41am
- TWEEDSE
  
  Sinead Boucher paid too much.
  
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  May 25, 2020 11:50am
Tall Man

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121613758/stuff-ceo-sinead-boucher-buys-the-company-announces-great-new-era

So stuff still stuffed then.

They need to change their attitude, they are supposed to be “news media”, not greta’s or ardern’s little disciple.
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May 25, 2020 11:36am
- Libertarians are right
  
  So, the people that destroyed the company then got to purchase it at a decreased rate?
  It’s now even more likely to be left leaning drivel though, subsidised heavily by Labour (because it’s now “NZ owned”.
  
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  May 25, 2020 11:55am
- Prince
  
  Merge with The Standard on the cards ?
  
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  May 25, 2020 12:55pm
- Philview
  
  Sinead Boucher has paid a $1 for a well known brand name but she quite clearly will not have the money to prop up a failing business. This means there will be a radical cutting of staff and mastheads.
  
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  May 25, 2020 12:59pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/121614298/coronavirus-weekly-490-payments-for-unemployed-workers-in-12b-government-relief-scheme
The communist/socialist dream: as many people as possible on government benefits, controlled by the untouchable elite.
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May 25, 2020 12:03pm
- rouppe
  
  How long will it be before those on the standard benefit of $225 a week start accusing labour of not being “fair”.
  
  Is this actually a back door move to ultimately raise the unemployment rate to $490 a week?
  
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  May 25, 2020 1:57pm
  - cmm
    
    UBI
    
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    May 25, 2020 2:46pm
    - Ian Boag
      
      Pension
      
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      May 25, 2020 7:35pm
  - alex Masterley
    
    It has already started.
    At least one academic has gone off, on facebook, about this.
    I agree with her.
    Labour are trying to douse discontent with their polices by helicoptering money around and its not going down well in bene land.
    
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    May 25, 2020 7:06pm
Maggie Pie

I see the NZ Herald has now dubbed Todd Muller –

‘The Nat in the Hat’
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May 25, 2020 12:04pm
- UrbanNeocolonialist
  
  Labour’s $50million spin apparatus at work. Remember a couple of months back Ardern called for a ‘factual and positive’ New Zealand election campaign?
  
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  May 25, 2020 12:07pm
  - Tall Man
    
    Facdual and posidive FFS!
    
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    May 25, 2020 1:13pm
- mandk
  
  If the press raises the subject with him again, he could always ask what’s wrong with wanting to make one’s country great?
  
  He could also ask them why they have ignored the Hilary Clinton badge?
  
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  May 25, 2020 12:13pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    And IF those bought & paid for ‘churnalists’ at the NZH cared to do a little twitter search like me – they would have find this:
    
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EYxSXw1U8AEVbbY?format=jpg&name=small
    
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    May 25, 2020 12:36pm
    - chaos
      
      Journalists research a story. Omg Maggie you need to get to a doctor immediately.
      
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      May 25, 2020 12:42pm
- chaos
  
  Oh well, I will wait for them to release the new name for Cindy, “twit in the shit”
  
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  May 25, 2020 12:32pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  And the NZ Herald the Nasty with the pasty.
  
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  May 25, 2020 12:48pm
- david
  
  How about we name the authors of this stream of unthinking garbage. Claire Trevett, Rosemary McLeod, Souxie Wiles et al the finger points at you.
  
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  May 25, 2020 1:41pm
I remember when

Knew a stock agent that was on one of the early vessel carrying stock to China.
They were really impressed by the way the allocation of duties in China seemed to be aimed at ensuring there was the right number of people for the job on hand.
Thought it was something we could learn from.
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May 25, 2020 12:21pm
- Jack5
  
  They haven’t been short of labour, but the electronics companies have begun running short of girls from the villages for their work.
  
  One child policy, plus aborting of girl foetuses.
  
  Looks like Trump and Taiwan may be going to solve the electronics labour problem for them. Taiwan is building an $NZ19.65 billion advanced semiconductor plant in Arizona.
  
  https://techcrunch.com/2020/05/14/tsmc-to-build-a-12-billion-advanced-semiconductor-plant-in-arizona-with-u-s-government-support/
  
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  May 25, 2020 12:43pm
  - Gravelroad
    
    Yes Jack5 – the policy of one child family did lead to the frequent aborting of female foetuses.
    Now, a few years down the track, it has lead to a high rate of female exploitation as girls in other poor countries are rounded up and sold into slavery and as child brides.
    Not enough women to go round now, you see – or do the work in sewing factories, horticulture fields and beds.
    
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    May 25, 2020 1:14pm
chaos

Wait, what, the new unemployment benefit for only those who lost their job because of COVID is also tax free.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/05/income-relief-payment-tax-free-weekly-payments-of-almost-500-announced-for-workers-laid-off-due-to-covid-19.html
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May 25, 2020 12:30pm
- Inandout
  
  chaos, this will encourage companies to shed staff and not feel guilty. Can’t this CoL do anything right?
  
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  May 25, 2020 12:51pm
- chaos
  
  Whoops, stuff are pointing out the obviou
  
  * Government’s announcement that it will introduce a new payment of up to $490 a week for people who lose work because of Covid-19 will be welcome to the thousands of people expected to find themselves out of a job in the coming months.
  
  But you can’t help thinking that it will be a rude shock to those who were already unemployed, who could barely dream of the sort of income the Government will provide those newly jobless.*
  
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/300020101/unemployment-payment-scheme-shows-govt-knows-benefits-insufficient
  
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  May 25, 2020 2:38pm
Jack5

Stuff sold for $1 to chief executive, and it seems she’s going to turn it into a co-operative.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/417448/stuff-chief-executive-sinead-boucher-buys-company-for-1
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May 25, 2020 12:36pm
- Jack5
  
  Whoops! Didn’t see the post higher up – perhaps it was in the Mod. queue.
  
  I see the Aussies are keeping the Petone printing plant. I wonder whether Stuff still has printing plants in Christchurch and Hamilton, and perhaps elsewhere.
  
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  May 25, 2020 12:46pm
  - secondcumming
    
    Wasn’t it *Graham Hart* that said you need at least one Printing Plant in you life?
    
    …Or maybe it was Kerry Packer 😎
    
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    May 25, 2020 1:05pm
- chaos
  
  No major entity behind stuff now, it’s days are numbered.
  
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  May 25, 2020 12:51pm
- Inandout
  
  I wonder if she has bought the debt as well?
  
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  May 25, 2020 12:52pm
Prince

All those media luvvies, Twitter Warriors and new arrivals to Democracy, trying to bring Muller down by decreeing what hats are OK and what are verboten, that old conservative Sam Hunt wrote a poem many years ago warning us of people who would try to mandate hats for the population.

Beware the man who tries to fit you out
In his idea of a hat
Dictating the colour and the shape of it.
He takes your head and carefully measures it
Says ‘Of course black’s out’.
He sees himself in the big black hat.
So you may be a member of the act
He makes for you your special coloured hat.
Beware! He’s fitting you for more than that.
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May 25, 2020 1:04pm
- graham
  
  I think the best way to deal with this is to constantly raise the question, why do they choose to focus on a single piece of political memorabilia rather than Todd Muller’s actual words from 27 July 2016, when Hillary Clinton won the nomination to run for president:
  
  DNC convention floor, 26/7/16. History made. It’s my eldest daughters birthday, may daughters everywhere see this and dream.
  
  Hit them with this. Hit them hard. Ask, where is their reporting on this? Ask, why do they not concentrate on Muller’s statement in support of Hillary Clinton? Or on his comments comparing the 2016 Democrat and Republican conventions:
  
  Todd has found the democrat convention more optimistic than the republican one in Cleveland last week.
  
  “For a start the (Republican) delegates were very white, older and in most cases very angry. Their view of America’s place in the world and where they would like to take it is a bit like looking into the rear vision mirror, trying to recreate an America perhaps of their nostalgic memory – as opposed to an America that’s competitive and able to participate in the global economy.
  
  “And then of course you come to Philadelphia and it’s like the rest of America turned up. African Americans, Hispanics, women, young people, old people, very much the fabric of the US.
  
  “It was a huge difference and the tone of all the speeches was optimistic and seeing American in a far better light than the Republican delegates and the Republican leadership and the Republican nominee Donald Trump. The contrast was just extraordinary.”
  
  Honestly I despair. It’s like people forget the last 10, 20 years of somebody’s life ever happened, preferring instead to focus on some insignificant point and judge somebody based solely on … a cap.
  
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  May 25, 2020 4:02pm
JibberJabber

How are those new power bills looking?https://twitter.com/The_NZ_bear/status/1264672727480143872

Not only no discount but an increase to go with it.
Another Labour “Government” fail.
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May 25, 2020 1:12pm
- Prince
  
  Be Kind. All those non-payers and late-payers are now making out like, well, bandits.
  
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  May 25, 2020 1:14pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Yeah, Meridian axed the pay on time discount. I always pay the day I get the email invoice. But Meridian say the discount was unfair to those who could not pay on time, or got behind.
  Fuck off!
  
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  May 25, 2020 3:10pm
- Surely Knott
  
  We’ve still received a prompt payment discount on our May bill and haven’t had any info about it being cut.
  
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  May 25, 2020 5:22pm
Happychappy

It looks like Shane Jones feels the vibe from Nationals new Leader and says you never know with a 120 days to go.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12334452
Let’s hope this is Todd Mullers way of becoming Prime Minister.
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May 25, 2020 1:44pm
- Happychappy
  
  Not his way of becoming PM
  
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  May 25, 2020 2:02pm
  - Happychappy
    
    Another news media outlet confirming Todd Muller ready to work with Winston and NZ First before the upcoming General Election.
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/417463/new-leader-eases-tensions-between-national-and-nz-first
    Ha ha this wont end well for National.
    
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    May 25, 2020 3:00pm
    - chaos
      
      And let us take the last part of the article you have linked to
      
      “Our caucus position is clear that we’re not working for New Zealand First.
      
      “And there’s always a second bit that I always follow up with – and if that changes I’ll report back,” he said.
      
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      May 25, 2020 4:50pm
AlphaWhiskey

Different Subject:

I have had a need to review George Kennan’s 1946 “Long Telegram” where, as the US Ambassador to the USSR sets out the pan-Soviet / Marxist plan.

I was struck by the following two paragraphs and how they might relate to the behaviours of the current NZ government.

“(d) In foreign countries Communists will, as a rule, work toward destruction of all forms of personal independence, economic, political or moral. Their system can handle only individuals who have been brought into complete dependence on higher power. Thus, persons who are financially independent–such as individual businessmen, estate owners, successful farmers, artisans and all those who exercise local leadership or have local prestige, such as popular local clergymen or political figures, are anathema. It is not by chance that even in USSR local officials are kept constantly on move from one job to another, to prevent their taking root.

(e) Everything possible will be done to set major Western Powers against each other. Anti- British talk will be plugged among Americans, anti-American talk among British. Continentals, including Germans, will be taught to abhor both Anglo-Saxon powers. Where suspicions exist, they will be fanned; where not, ignited. No effort will be spared to discredit and combat all efforts which threaten to lead to any sort of unity or cohesion among other [apparent omission] from which Russia might be excluded. Thus, all forms of international organization not amenable to Communist penetration and control, whether it be the Catholic [apparent omission] international economic concerns, or the international fraternity of royalty and aristocracy, must expect to find themselves under fire from many, and often [apparent omission].”
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May 25, 2020 1:59pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Two downticks. Unusual. I thought it would be way over 30 from 1.59pm today.
  NZ higher power? who is that? Oh yes, you know who.
  Discuss socialists. Or did you just get your arse on a plate?
  
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  May 25, 2020 4:29pm
curry4me

https://www.yahoo.com/news/wuhan-lab-had-three-live-bat-coronaviruses-chinese-033127544.html
Wuhan lab had three live bat CCP viruses.
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May 25, 2020 2:39pm
curry4me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxtlu4xgY2Y
The rise of gold in a post-globalist economy.
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May 25, 2020 2:39pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

// for you idiots
https://bustatroll.org/2020/04/04/no-take-backsies/?fbclid=IwAR2gLmAvsCjwwdnCEx50Hae7ed-uUJSMUwgu6CmMlTpYU6Fnq4UlbwU6Aag
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May 25, 2020 2:45pm
I remember when

Is the MAGA hat Racist?
Of course not, it is a hat.
So why is it considered Racist? Who or what makes it Racist? Is it the opinion and intention of the wearer or is it an opinion the beholder wishes to portray?
Reading articles about MAGA hats, and the pros and cons, it is obvious that your political starting point is almost certain to dictate your answer.
The MAGA hat is Donald Trump and if you belong to the left it is a symbol of revulsion. Often hated with a passion that exceeds that of the people they consider racist. No statement or suggestion is too unfair or unreasonable. Facts are often secondary to need to remove THAT man from office.
If you are from the right this sort of reaction often surprises you and isn’t expected. Who knows what the far right thinks? Maybe the Intelligence Service.
However, if you have one of those MAGA hats you don’t take kindly to being told what you can and can not wear. Or what someone else thinks you are wearing it for.
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May 25, 2020 2:55pm
- Bobba Fret
  
  I would be more annoyed if he had a Holden cap as I am a Ford man.
  
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  May 25, 2020 4:31pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  I have many. White on red, blue on white. Trump 2020 with stars and stripes. Tee shirts. Fuck I even have stars a stripes swimming togs (Beach, boat and spa)
  I don’t give a fuck what others think, lots of nods and handshakes (not allowed fuck off Jacinda)
  I have coins with Trump on them (Coin collector for 40 years)
  A MAGA hat just makes idiot lose their shit
  
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  May 25, 2020 4:38pm
  - Jacinda is not a Princess, she's a very naughty girl
    
    Coin collector about 50 years.
    
    Recently sold all my ancient Greek and Roman silver along with a good collection of hammered English silver from Aethelred the Unready to the Hanovers (incl. a complete portrait gallery of the Tudors).
    
    Replaced by collectable gold coins (NOT commemoratives!) Much easier to manage, store, buy and sell.
    
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    May 25, 2020 4:54pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      My collection is just random, mainly coins.
      My parents and I had a business which involved mostly cash, with customers from all over the World.
      Also have complete folders of 3d, 6d, shillings, florins and half crowns from 1933? to 1965. Lots of variations as well. (no 1935 3d)
      
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      May 26, 2020 8:07am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Second armada. Fuck, wait until Greta hears about this – all that fuel …..
https://lowcountrysource.com/feature-this/trump-armada-packs-charleston-harbor/?fbclid=IwAR07ngqXvJMDZeNLq5equQA1Aj1Wk_g4Xu0PRC24p_atLs6q1T6-4afT6_M
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May 25, 2020 3:00pm
chaos

Misleading, from this govt, no, really

* Just because you can now build a 30 square-metre room in the backyard without council permission doesn’t mean it’s a DIY free-for-all.

Builder Peter Wolfkamp, site foreman on The Block NZ, says the government ‘s DIY rules changes, “conveniently released over the weekend”, had a lot of people rubbing their hands together with glee. But he says it’s not that straightforward.

“It’s misleading,” he says. “Any structure will still need to comply with the NZ Building Code — and 30 square metres is actually a huge space.”*

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/latest/121614406/peter-wolfkamp-we-dont-need-ramshackle-diy-sleepouts-popping-up-all-over-the-place
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May 25, 2020 3:12pm
Maggie Pie

Just tuned into MagicTalk to see if that Banksie is still on (?).
Shorn Plunlet is talking to Chloe Swarbrick and you can tell from his body language he’s get the hots for her.
TBH, even i find her attractive in a strange sort of way 😛
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May 25, 2020 3:21pm
- kowtow
  
  OK Boner.
  
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  May 25, 2020 3:48pm
- Monique Watson
  
  Oh yuck. Each to their own and I respect that lol but none of those young Greenies or Labourites give me the glint in the eye, male or female. Is there anyone sexy in politics today? 🙂
  
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  May 25, 2020 4:32pm
  - chaos
    
    Look at how many jumped into bed with jami lee, I’d say sex appeal doesn’t matter, alcohol might though
    
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    May 25, 2020 5:26pm
- greybeard
  
  I am very disappointed in Sean Plunkett.
  His early Magic Talk performances were great: he was honest, he was disrespectful of this crap “government”, he held everyone to account.
  Lately he has lost his edge and become more middle-of-the-road.
  At least we still have Peter Williams and John Banks.
  
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  May 25, 2020 5:40pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Happening in New Zealand now.
“Do you know how to catch wild pigs?”..
There was a chemistry professor in a large college that had some exchange students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab, the professor noticed one young man, an exchange student, who kept rubbing his back and stretching as if his back hurt.
The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country’s government and install a new communist regime. In the midst of his story, he looked at the professor and asked a strange question. He asked: “Do you know how to catch wild pigs?”
The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said that it was no joke. “You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come every day to eat the free food”.
“When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence”. “They get used to that and start to eat again.
You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in the last side”. “The pigs, which are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat that free corn again. You then slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd”.
“Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.”
The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening in America . The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tax exemptions, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare entitlements, medicine, drugs, etc., while we continually lose our freedoms, just a little at a time as the government forces us to participate in many of these programs whether or not we want to.
One should always remember two truths: There is no such thing as a free lunch, and you can never hire someone to provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself. If you see that all of this wonderful government “help” is a problem confronting the future of democracy in America, you might want to share this with your friends.
God help us all when the gate slams shut!

Quote for today: “The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those that vote for a living.”
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May 25, 2020 3:38pm
Jack5

Unrest continues in Hong Kong. Water cannon and tear gas. More than 100 people arrested.

New Zealand’s democracy-loving politicians continue to ignore the plight of Hong Kong people.

https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2020/05/25/2003736988
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May 25, 2020 3:59pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  I guess PTPM has no water cannon or tear gas. Did she ask the Defence Force?
  ‘Defence Force? what is that? does it defend us against Todd and Nikky?
  sooo fucking thick
  
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  May 25, 2020 4:45pm
  - Jack5
    
    What is or who is PTPM?
    
    What was the point of tacking that comment on to a post about democracy protests in Hong Kong?
    
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    May 25, 2020 5:36pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Dis regard, it was a kneejerk comment
      
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      May 26, 2020 8:10am
- chaos
  
  The govt released a statement on Saturday. Not sure what more you think they can do
  
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  May 25, 2020 5:24pm
- krazykiwi
  
  New Zealand’s democracy-loving politicians have more pressing business here. Like granting police warrant-free, forced access to your home, and authorising airport baggage scanner operators to stop you in the street and to demand your identity.
  
  Why protest about the Chinese actions in HK when you can learn from them instead?
  
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  May 25, 2020 6:03pm
- chaos
  
  Oh look another article that proves you are spreading fake news with your claims about nz politicians are ignoring this. You even to be a fake news spreader. Any more fake news you wish to spread
  
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300020278/new-zealand-politicians-unite-in-criticism-of-chinas-hong-kong-clampdown
  
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  May 25, 2020 7:53pm
  - MCos
    
    I don’t know whether the UK is agitating for democracy in HK, but they certainly didn’t let them have much when they ran the show.
    
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    May 25, 2020 10:09pm
surfing

In About-Face, UK Will Not Allow Huawei to Be Involved in Any Part of Its 5G Networks

DPF used to claim that UK acceptance of Huawei somehow vindicated them in some way.

I don’t see that the UK had any other option, and their original decision was odd. Letting the enemy install your telephone line?
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May 25, 2020 4:52pm
- chaos
  
  they are doing a review, no decision has been made
  
  https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52792587
  
  * The UK government is conducting a new review into the impact of allowing Huawei telecoms equipment to be used in British 5G networks.
  The National Cyber Security Centre involvement comes after the US brought in fresh sanctions on the Chinese company, citing security fears.
  In January, the UK resisted US pressure to ban Huawei from contributing to 5G.
  
  A UK government spokesman said: “The security and resilience of our networks is of paramount importance.”
  
  “Following the US announcement of additional sanctions against Huawei, the NCSC is looking carefully at any impact they could have to the UK’s networks.”
  
  The sanctions restrict Huawei from using US technology and software to design its semiconductors.
  
  The US Department of Commerce is concerned Huawei has flouted regulations implemented last year that require the firm to obtain a licence in order to export US items. It says Huawei got around this rule by using US semiconductor manufacturing equipment at factories in other countries.*
  
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  May 25, 2020 5:21pm
Jack5

Anniversary that Milky missed: Windows 3 is 30 years old this month.

https://www.howtogeek.com/674574/windows-3.0-is-30-years-old-heres-what-made-it-special/
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May 25, 2020 5:35pm
chaos

The media no trying to credit this fool with coming up with the four day work week

* The world is watching New Zealand. Decisive early action, along with Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern’s empathetic style of leadership, quashed the country’s coronavirus outbreak in fewer than 50 days, earning it a place on the short list of nations the rest of the world is looking to for guidance – not just on how to fight the initial wave of the pandemic, but on what could come next.

So, when Ardern uploaded a video to Facebook last week floating the idea of a four-day workweek, an audience outside New Zealand took notice, judging by the headlines. Amid the flexibility companies have had to show in response to the novel coronavirus crisis, what once in many quarters would have come across as a fringe notion no longer seemed so unthinkable.*

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300020289/the-world-looks-to-new-zealand-for-the-prospect-of-a-fourday-week
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May 25, 2020 7:21pm
wilderbeast

Am I the only one peeved about today’s announcement on Level 1? MSM conspicuously silent in questioning the decision (no surprises there) but it kinda feels like we’ve been beaten into submission and we’ve given up hoping to have all our freedoms back…? Meanwhile it must be at least a month since there was any community transmission….
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May 25, 2020 9:15pm
- Ruahine
  
  I think we have every reason to be quite fearful about any freedoms that we think we are entitled to. This government, CoL, is a bossy, bullying and dictatorial gang. They have now seen how easy it is to just take freedom and rights away from us. They will find another reason again in the future.
  
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  May 25, 2020 10:19pm
Kiwi_in_Paris

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=128&v=KCGO_0TC2AM&feature=emb_logo
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May 25, 2020 10:06pm

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