General Debate 3 November 2019

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Steve Todd

The following is the third and final part of my thoughts on Justin Lester’s application for a recount. Again, it carries straight on from where I left off yesterday.

As previously noted, Mr Lester’s application is based on his “belief” that 302 voting documents that were “deemed invalid because they were not filled out correctly, should be included in the final count” Were they to be included, he would likely win the election (by 22 votes).

*My* belief is, that Mr Lester’s application will be declined, because those 302 partially informal votes – in respect of which each voter’s intention has already been properly determined, and given effect to – cannot lawfully be processed, in each case, beyond the point where each voter made his or her mistake (refer clause 37 of Schedule 1A of the Local Electoral Regulations 2001.)

Therefore, the only circumstance in which a manual recount would be justified, indeed, would *have* to be undertaken, is if the judge allowed “precedent”* to prevail in respect of those 302 partially informal votes, and decided that each voter’s *further* intention, beyond his or her mistake, must also be given effect to.

* The precedent that Mr Lester is relying on, pertains to an FPP election whereby informal votes that had been entirely excluded from the original count (on ‘technical’ grounds?), were, on appeal, subsequently included in the recount of votes, which resulted in the original outcome being overturned. In this STV case, the 302 voting documents in question were always included in the count, until the errors on them were reached, at which point they dropped out (of the count).

Should such a sorry state of affairs come to pass, then STV elections in this country would be gravely compromised.

It could mean that, for the avoidance of doubt, the law would have to be amended to require electoral officers, following a close election result, to determine whether the partially informal votes that point either to the winner or to the runner-up candidate, would confirm the winner, or reverse the outcome in favour of the runner-up.

If the answer, as in the case in question, is the runner-up, then the electoral officer in future will be required to declare the runner-up candidate – the last-to-be-excluded loser – the winner!! We would be the laughing stock of the STV world.

(And, if preferences beyond the mistakes can be given effect to, at the *end* of a count, then why not *during* the count, leading to a change of candidate to be excluded at any given iteration? What a muddle we would all be in, then.)

And then we have to consider elections that are close between more than two candidates. If, at the election in question, Diane Calvert was close behind Foster, what would be the situation if many of those 302 voting documents showed her with a higher ranking than Foster, meaning, if the voter intentions beyond the mistakes are given effect to, she would slip ahead of Foster at iteration 7, instead of being excluded herself? It would all become too silly for words.

Logically, the same principle would have to apply to multi-seat elections, as well. But, unless there are just a few votes to be counted, multi-seat NZSTV elections (by Meek’s method) cannot be carried out manually – the task is literally too tedious – which is why computers must be used (and why there is an STV calculator).

Therefore, the rules pertaining to voting in STV elections, and to how the preference numbers on the voting documents are to be processed – that apply the world over – would be different for single-seat elections with a close outcome and for multi-seat elections with a close outcome. Preferences beyond the point where a mistake was made would sometimes be given effect to, in the single-seat case, but never in the multi-seat case.

This is without doubt a frivolous appeal (in my non-legal view). I would be astonished (not to mention, extremely distraught) if the judge decided that mistakes made on those 302 voting documents can be ignored, enabling those votes to be further processed for Lester, or for Foster, as the case may be.

Surely such a judgment would be repugnant to justice; a complete travesty – particularly for Mr Foster.* It would make a mockery of future single-seat STV elections in New Zealand, in that, on those occasions when the outcome is close, the result could sometimes be arbitrarily reversed, because a tiny minority of voters did not fully comply with the voting instructions.

That is so utterly counter-intuitive, I cannot imagine a judge giving it any credence whatsoever.

* Further to my response to niggly on Friday morning, I have now confirmed my suspicion that the judge’s decision cannot be appealed to the High Court (see section 103 of the Local Electoral Act 2001, here: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2001/0035/latest/DLM94741.html?search=qs_act_Local+Electoral+Act+2001_resel_25_h&p=1.) That being the case, will the judge really upend an entire voting system on the basis of a precedent that, it seems to me, has no applicability in respect of valid, ordinal, votes cast in *STV* elections? I certainly hope not.
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November 3, 2019 8:01am
- Maggie Pie
  
  @ST
  This has been one of a most interesting and detailed set of ‘legal posts’ that we have ever read. Thank you. My partner reckons the presiding judge would be silly if he didn’t just plagiarize exactly what you have written and save himself heaps of time.
  
  Just saying.
  
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  November 3, 2019 9:40am
  - Steve Todd
    
    Wow! Thank you, Maggie. That’s very nice of you and your partner.
    
    Unfortunately, there’s one problem with your partner’s suggestion. Legal professionals, particularly judges, place no weight whatsoever on the opinions of (1) non-lawyers, regarding the interpretation of the law, and (2) people who have no standing in respect of any particular matter under consideration.
    
    As long as my fellow Kiwibloggers have some idea of what’s at stake here, I’ll be happy.
    
    Thanks again for your response. I very much appreciated it.
    
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    November 3, 2019 11:28am
  - IndividualResponsibility
    
    Maggie Pie – ditto. I suspect Steve Todd may have been a Cricket Scoring nut in his younger days, as it takes that sort of discipline to hold such a qualified view on voting systems.
    
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    November 3, 2019 12:34pm
    - Tony Stuart
      
      And what’s wrong with being a “cricket scoring nut” IR?
      
      My son, despite having been diagnosed as Aspergers in his teens, is a “cricket scoring nut”, and in fact is scoring the T20 International between New Zealand and England this afternoon!
      
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      November 3, 2019 12:43pm
      - Steve Todd
        
        That’s brilliant, Tony. Please pass on my best wishes to your son. (I made my “test debut” in the NZ–India match at the Basin Reserve in 1976.)
        
        Scoring is a great way for cricket-lovers who, like me, never made it past the lower grades, but who nevertheless want to play an important role in the game at the higher levels.
        
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        November 3, 2019 1:21pm
      - Tony Stuart
        
        My son is fortunate to have learned his “trade” at first class and international level from the doyen of scorers, Ian Smith. He will be scoring all the international matches in Wellington this season.
        
        Neither he nor I were any great shakes as players. I went into umpiring, and he went down the scoring route!
        
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        November 3, 2019 1:54pm
      - Steve Todd
        
        Goodness me. What a small world we live in. I took over from Ian Smith as the scorer for the great Kilbirnie senior side at the start of the 1975–76 season.
        
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        November 3, 2019 2:26pm
      - IndividualResponsibility
        
        Tony – nothing wrong at all with being any sort of “nut”, and I certainly didn’t mean to cast aspersions on anyone.
        Back in the day, in Dunedin, I was associated with the Blair family, who were mostly cricket nuts!!! I’m almost certain father Roy, eldest son Wayne, and youngest son Bruce (Barney) all played for Otago, and in Bruce’s case, for NZ pre Black Caps.
        Bruce was also a mean golfer in his schoolboy days – a lefty played off scratch>
        I’m pretty sure Blair (only) daughter Jan also played cricket, but I recall her strength being netball.
        For what it’s worth, I’ve been described as a car nut, having foolishly owned a MkII 3.8 Jaguar MOD twice in my life. You’d think I’d have learned from the first time (in 1970s) but no, dived back in again during 1990s, (trying to relive my ill spent youth!!!) and took a bath.
        
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        November 3, 2019 5:33pm
    - Steve Todd
      
      Wow!! You nailed it one, IR. Well done.
      
      Back in the day, the 70s and 80s, I was an official scorer, or the TV One scorer, in Test Matches and ODIs, plus various other first-class and one-day matches.
      
      Heh, heh. I now realise I come across as a certain “type”.
      
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      November 3, 2019 12:55pm
- peterwn
  
  The precedent referred to AFAIK was that voters are traditionally asked to mark a preferred candidate with a X which is somewhat counter intuitive. Some voters marked with a ‘tick’ and had their votes disallowed. This was obviously ridiculous and electoral law was changed to the ‘clear intentions’ rule and rightly so.
  Justin is justified in arguing that this precedent should apply to the more subtle errors or lack of clarity with respect to STV. Each category of error would be an ‘issue’ the judge needs to rule on, and the count adjusted accordingly.
  If the Returning Officer has to repeat a full iteration of vote counting and drop-off’s then so be it. Since most votes are already recorded on computer is would not be a difficult matter to enter the previously disallowed papers (adjusted as need be) then re-run the full iteration rather than just consider Justin v Andy.
  If Diane comes out on top, that suits me fine – she was my first choice. Then there is Rebecca Matthews (Labour) to think about. If Justin prevails, Rebecca loses her ward seat to Andy, so Rebecca will probably hope that Andy retains the Mayoralty (they both stood for the same ward so did Dianne). As Diane is in the same ward if she became Mayor then Rebecca would remain a councillor in this scenario too.
  Perhaps the judge will decide that he needs to abide by the rules as set (ie papers valid up to the point of missed or doubled up sequences) and say that any changes should be made by Parliament, since it was Parliament who eased the ticks and crosses rule. Then the chain stays around Andy’s neck.
  
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  November 3, 2019 11:12am
  - Steve Todd
    
    Yes, I suppose the vote-data in question could be amended, and the complete vote-data run again, but that’s not really the point. The point is, the intention of each of the 302 voters (who cast valid votes) *was* recognised, and given effect to. The fact that they made mistakes, precluding their *full* intention being given effect to, is neither the fault of the system, nor the system’s responsibility to ignore, or somehow to correct.
    
    You are in effect saying that clause 37 is superfluous. It might as well say, “You are free to rank the candidates however you like. Don’t worry if you mess the whole thing up. If that happens, you don’t have to apply for a special vote, and have another crack at it. It’ll all be sorted out later, if necessary.”
    
    Right now, after the fact, we know that 193 votes would have ended up with Lester, and 109 with Foster. But, what about when the votes were originally being processed. If it were known beforehand that errors could be ignored – as might be the case in future elections, if Mr Lester wins his case – how should a vote 1, 2 (Lester), 2 (Hill), 3, 5 (Calvert), 6 (Foster) [end], have been processed during, say, the early-processing-of-votes stage?
    
    With hindsight, we know it would now be one of the “193” that point to Lester, but that wasn’t known prior to “the button” being pressed on the Saturday afternoon sometime.
    
    Why should partially informal voting documents be reviewed, after the fact, in close elections, but not otherwise?
    
    Two more quick responses. Rebecca Matthew’s situation is not relevant to Mr Lester’s application, and will not feature in the judge’s consideration of the matter at hand.
    
    With regard to Diane Calvert: when she was doomed at iteration 7, she was 10,591 votes behind Foster, so will not win any recount that the judge might order. At that point, the votes were Lester 24,620, Foster 22,062, and Calvert 11,471. Her votes transferred 2,682 to Lester, 5,302 to Foster, and 3,487 were non-transferable, i.e., they did not show a unique preference for either Lester or Foster, so they dropped out of the count.
    
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    November 3, 2019 12:26pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Justin is stretching sense beyond breaking point.
    FPP has a clear binary choice-an “X” has been determined to be a clear indication of a voters intent. So be it.
    
    However I know as a programmer the logic cannot infer the order in sequence without pre-set rules. Voters are exercising choice and there is no certainty what the missing items might have been.
    The best that can be done is to follow a simple rule that candidate numbers entered are final. If only 4 out of, say, 7 are given they are the only choices. It is guesswork otherwise to try and interpret missing or implied preferences. Clarity is needed on voting day. The allocation method does not need further fuzz.
    
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    November 3, 2019 12:58pm
- Straight arrow
  
  te ao Maori news.
  “Minister Mahuta told Te Ao “I believe that once the coin toss is done, then the winner should be able to assume the role that they have ascertained through that process. What is concerning is that, someone wins the coin toss, but the loser then has an avenue in which they can request a recount, that is my concern. So I need to look at the legislation to correct this issue.””
  
  This in relation to a tie in the Galatea-Murupara ward of the Whakatāne District Council elections.
  Hinerangi Goodman won after a coin toss. Alison Silcock called for a recount after originally receiving 262 votes each. By a one-vote margin, Silcock has managed to pass Goodman’s votes and is the new councillor for the ward.
  
  So Labour wants law changed so that if a Labour candidate loses, they can challenge it, but not the other way round.
  
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  November 3, 2019 11:45am
  - Steve Todd
    
    @Straight arrow @ 11:45AM
    
    With STV, ties are resolved as part of the vote-counting process – no embarrassment; everyone’s mana remains intact.
    
    See my response to artemisia, following my effort yesterday morning.
    
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    November 3, 2019 1:05pm
    - Straight arrow
      
      My issue with Mahuta is that she is (selectively) against recounts. Her declaration is that once a returning officer declares the result, that should be the end of it. That is not good for democracy.
      
      Ignore the “tie” position, as that is a red herring. The fact that the count was incorrect on first attempt is what matters. Eg if Silcock had “lost” by 3 votes on first count, Goodman sworn in, Silcock gets recount and wins by one vote, is same scenario as what Mahuta is complaining about, essentially.
      
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      November 3, 2019 1:34pm
      - Steve Todd
        
        Yep, fair enough. As you might suspect, I took the opportunity to promote STV again.
        
        It always annoys me that we are never told exactly why it was that the vote totals changed. Why can’t the electoral officer say, it was because, in one instance, the barcode beside a blank box for Mrs Goodman, was ‘wanded’ in error, or something like that?
        
        When I accessed the article at Point of Order yesterday afternoon, I concluded that Ms Mahuta was just making the right noises in support of someone she knows and respects. Should she pursue the matter, I’m sure her officials will bring her back into line.
        
        I would hope they would also take the opportunity to recommend to her that STV be made mandatory for *all* local elections. That would be a sure way of making sure no-one ever again goes through what Mrs Goodman did.
        
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        November 3, 2019 2:20pm
  - DigNap15
    
    I think Alison should have stuck to the rules
    It was a tie, don’t be a sore loser
    
    But yes Labour do have a habit of wanting to change laws when things do not go their way.
    
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    November 3, 2019 2:25pm
    - Straight arrow
      
      To DigNap15 and Brian McDonald
      It was not a tie, it was a miscount. As far as I can tell, Silcock did not challenge the “coin toss” result, that is if still tied than no evidence she was asking for a new coin toss (or out of hat actually).
      
      Difference with Lester, is that he is challenging the rules as set in regulation, not that there was an error in counting, as with Silcock.
      
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      November 3, 2019 3:29pm
  - Brian McDonald
    
    Don’t know about any proposed law change but if 2 parties agree to a coin toss (assuming they did Whakatane?) then they should live by the result.
    
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    November 3, 2019 2:58pm
    - artemisia
      
      The tied candidates could have asked for a recount before the coin toss. In practice, why would they?
      
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      November 3, 2019 4:30pm
    - peterwn
      
      AFAIK electoral law requires the returning officer to choose the winning candidate by lot if there is a tie. It is not the candidates’ choice. And the easiest way is to flip a coin. This would be done with the candidates or their appointed scrutineers present.
      The unsuccessful candidate can seek a recount in the usual way if unhappy with the result, but objecting to the final result being determined by lot would not be a valid reason for recount.
      
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      November 3, 2019 6:59pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    I believe this has happened previously. The unenforceable convention has been not challenge after the toss-up.
    
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    November 3, 2019 4:06pm
srylands

Someone will be having a bad day. ?

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/rugby-world-cup-2019/2019/11/rugby-world-cup-2019-kiwi-punter-places-whopping-100k-on-england-smashing-south-africa.amp.html
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November 3, 2019 8:04am
- peterwn
  
  Two things here:
  1. There is one born every minute.
  2. You win some and you lose some.
  Just hope that these punters can afford to lose their bets – it would be terrible if their households were driven into poverty,
  
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  November 3, 2019 11:16am
MrTips

The Boks were stunning. The Poms were stunned. Swing low sweet chariot got muzzled and Owen Farrell got totally owned by Pollard and Kolbe.

BWAHAHAHA.

Poor old Eddie Jones. Great guy but has a bridesmaids habit 2003, 2019 and the 6 Nations this year. Be interesting to see if his star still shines after this.
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November 3, 2019 8:05am
- igm
  
  Owen Farrell will no longer be a grinning little wimp . . . just now known as a part of a bunch of “offside” bad losers.
  
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  November 3, 2019 8:20am
  - Nukuleka
    
    The tedious little Pom bashers are out in force today. Still smarting over the arse-kicking the All Blacks received last week, are we?
    
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    November 3, 2019 10:09am
    - Tony Stuart
      
      Nukuleka. The All Blacks, from Steve Hansen down, were exceedingly gracious in defeat last week, acknowledging they had been beaten by a better team on the night.
      
      If only the English could have studied that reaction. Yes, I can understand their deep disappointment but they were well beaten, and disappointment is no excuse for poor sportsmanship.
      
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      November 3, 2019 12:46pm
      - igm
        
        Yes, two of the Poms really showed their class in refusing to wear their medals of defeat, from what they and their followers were certain was theirs for the taking.
        
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        November 3, 2019 2:25pm
      - Brian McDonald
        
        Yes they were. Their reaction to their loss was a credit to them.
        
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        November 3, 2019 3:00pm
- Albert_Ross
  
  They were graceless in victory and now they’re being graceless in defeat. I’m not proud of my English heritage this morning.
  
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  November 3, 2019 8:44am
- Spam
  
  But what did Stephen Jones have to say?
  
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  November 3, 2019 9:12am
  - Colville
    
    too busy eating humble pie to talk…
    
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    November 3, 2019 12:08pm
- Colville
  
  England can wear their medals with pride.
  Worlds biggest chokers.
  
  According to the English media all week the Boks didn’t need to turn up they were going to be beat so badly.
  
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  November 3, 2019 9:54am
  - peterwn
    
    NZ Rugby needs someone like the late singing teacher Dame Sister Mary Leo. She would deliver the most blistering pep talk to her pupils just before they sang in competitions and that delivered results.
    
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    November 3, 2019 11:20am
    - sooty
      
      She could breath fire and brimstone into the dancing. The footy not so much!
      
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      November 3, 2019 12:01pm
- the deity formerly known as nigel6888
  
  It felt to me like England had already played their final – a completely different team turned up, and they were simply played off the park!
  
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  November 3, 2019 10:01am
  - Colville
    
    when Sinckler went off early the English scrum was under the pump…and then in the 2nd half the Saffer props were almost a step up in intensity.
    English flankers were well beaten resulting in the high penalty count…
    
    All in all probably the closest ever world cup.
    
    Japan was the winner on the day. Great tourney.
    
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    November 3, 2019 12:07pm
- plc
  
  I see the “I don’t want to be a royal” and “Fight Climate Change” Prince Harry made it to Tokyo.
  
  Must have been a long walk and he was lucky to get a ticket in the ballot.
  
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  November 3, 2019 3:04pm
  - Aliog
    
    Comment of the day IMHO.
    
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    November 3, 2019 9:45pm
sooty

ECHOO, ECHooo, echooo!
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November 3, 2019 8:10am
- Jack5
  
  A great game by the South Africans. ?
  
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  November 3, 2019 8:28am
Happychappy

There should be no case to answer from whoever’s leaked Winston Peter’s overpayment in his Pension details as he was twice sent notification to ask if he was in the right bracket. If this had been a not so wealthy Pensioner and not so well known they would have most likely have been fighting court case over the payments. Not everyone has the finances to immediately pay what’s owed back and then fight a court case over a problem that was your own making.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12281721
Winston is a selfish nasty prick who wants revenge on those he dislikes and blames for a problem he should have cleaned up many years ago, and should not be in parliament if he can’t understand financial bookkeeping from Government departments.
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November 3, 2019 8:16am
- Yvette
  
  Peters’ lawyers are seeking up to $450,000 in damages and declarations his privacy has been breached.
  They are not, however, pointing the finger at anyone in particular.
  “It’s a group of people had the private information, and they were a confined and contained group of people,” Henry said.
  A total of about 40 people are understood to have been made aware of the superannuation issue before ministers were briefed. – Herald
  
  Can a case defame up to 40 people, when only one is likely to be accountable, if that?
  
  Will Winston need to prove that he himself did not release the information, as in an Election context it was a more logic scenario than his claim that someone did it to damage him – when his returning the amount within 24 hours was exemplary behaviour that earned him a letter of commendation and thanks for his immediate and co-operative response.
  
  Was it not until Winston’s subsequence accusations, which-hunt, and legal action on the eve of “good-faith” coalition negotiations with National, that any mainly self-inflicted so-called damage occurred.
  
  Peters will tomorrow trade Wellington for Auckland as he takes the stand to give evidence in a privacy lawsuit he is bringing against former National Government ministers Anne Tolley and Paula Bennett, the Ministry of Social Development, the chief of the public sector watchdog, and a top civil servant.
  
  Is the “top civil servant” the then Solicitor Genral, who was apparently consulted before Ministers were told in the arrangement of their notification of matters involving public interest, which Winston himself has ensured this minor “done and dusted” issue has certainly become? Quod erat demonstrandum
  
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  November 3, 2019 8:31am
  - Brian McDonald
    
    Yvette he may have to prove that he didn’t leak the information himself even how unusual that would be, trying to sabotage his own political campaign.
    WP is not defaming 40 people, he is alleging privacy breaches on named people. Unknown persons cannot be defamed.
    
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    November 3, 2019 11:41am
    - Tony Stuart
      
      It wouldn’t be unusual at all Brian.
      
      Peters thrives on publicity, and he wasn’t getting any because of the media’s obsession with Jacinda. So why not leak the MSD issue, which had by then been resolved, and get his name back in the headlines?
      
      Why too would National leak this on the very weekend Bill English was launching the National Party campaign, when THEY wanted the headlines? That makes no sense at all. On the other hand, Peters survives on the Oscar Wilde principle, that it’s better to be talked about than not talked about.
      
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      November 3, 2019 12:57pm
      - Brian McDonald
        
        I don’t want to say anything rude about WP on this Tony, but he knows which side his bread is buttered on. If he had leaked himself he wouldn’t have evidence enough not to have this action struck out. There are also no counterclaims that I know of and I would expect the case would have collapsed moons ago if he could be proved to have leaked. He also needs more than suspicion to have advanced this far on the defamation, although at a guess he is saying that the ‘no surprise’ policy was misused in a way that was illegal or resulting in something happen which was illegal.
        
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        November 3, 2019 3:07pm
    - JackRabbit
      
      All of should be largely irrelevant. He is guilty of a crime under several sections of the 1961 Crimes Act, including section 240. If he was not Jacinda’s side kick, and so long as he can deny everything, he get away with what an ordinary NZ citizen could not. He was using his position in Government as a shield to prevent the passage of justice. Which in itself is another breach of the Crimes act.
      
      And by omission and lack of action in reining in Winston’s criminal actions, Jacinda is condoning
      those actions. Which is also sending a dangerous message to all NZ and especially the sexual victims of the Labour party. Even if you are right, speaking out will have you attacked in public. The outcome of which is that the victims become the “guilty” and the perpetrators become the “victims”.
      
      Winston did the crime. He is now parading as a victim by witch hunting down those that revealed the crime. This is what has happened to the victims of sexual abuse in the Labour party.
      
      This trial, and the witch hunt of the sexual abuse victims, marks another sad turning point in NZ justice.
      
      Winston is a sad excuse for a human being.
      
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      November 3, 2019 3:09pm
      - Brian McDonald
        
        It’s not established that he ‘did the crime’ knowingly. No charge followed.
        
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        November 3, 2019 7:41pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        I think what is established is how greedy Peters is.
        I have a number of friends who aren’t taking Super because they are financially fine.
        Peters doesn’t need it but he takes it anyway.
        More than he’s supposed to take too. Greedy.
        
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        November 3, 2019 8:37pm
  - Chuck Bird
    
    There is something wrong with a legal system that allows such a claim. I assume that this being a civil case that it will be decided on the balance of probilbites. Even so, unless there can be evidence produced that shows that all the accued worked together the claim is a nonsence and should not be allowed to waste taxpayer’s money.
    
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    November 3, 2019 12:23pm
  - peterwn
    
    The ‘top civil servant’ referred to would be Brendan Boyle the CEO of Social Development at the time. He has a LLB from Otago and MBA from MIT.
    The ‘the chief of the public sector watchdog’ would be Peter Hughes the State Services Commissioner and he is being sued because he gave Brendan advice on the matter. Although Brendan is now a private consultant he has a reasonable expectation for the Crown to arrange his defence because he was acting within the scope of his normal duties when giving the ‘no surprises’ notification to the Minister.
    Winston AFAIK would not be able to sue the Solicitor General with respect to any legal advice he gave.
    Also Winston cannot hope to collect $450k from each of the four defendants – that would be quadruple dipping. It would be $450k which the defendants would have to pay jointly and severally ie if A had a deep pocket and B, C and D are impecunious A would have to pay all. Anyway, at the very worst, Winston would be extremely unlikely to be awarded anything over $50k, probably far, far lower. The circumstances of the overpayment could have a bearing on damages payable, although Winston no doubt will argue that is irrelevant.
    
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    November 3, 2019 3:00pm
- Steve Todd
  
  Winston Peters was 71 when this matter came to light. Surely he had received more than one or two letters between 2010 and 2017. I receive a letter every year, at the anniversary of my retirement, asking me to check “the following details to make sure they are correct.”
  
  How many letters were sent to him, and ignored? Did his partner never say to him, “Winston, sweetheart, you’ve got a letter from WINZ you better have a look at”?
  
  We could be in for an interesting week or two.
  
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  November 3, 2019 8:39am
  - Steve Todd
    
    “[…] between 2012 and 2017.”
    
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    November 3, 2019 9:56am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    How long has Winston been a bit defective? I sense someone devoid of present reality at times. A variety of alzheimers? Alcohol damage?
    I believe his gambling personality will keep him seeking office until the very end.
    
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    November 3, 2019 1:16pm
- peterwn
  
  Wonder if Paula will send Winston another bunch of flowers after the case?
  
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  November 3, 2019 11:25am
  - Paulus Gnome
    
    Arum lillies so the old soak known where this ends.
    
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    November 3, 2019 1:10pm
    - sooty
      
      A bunch of stink weed!
      
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      November 3, 2019 2:02pm
- Brian McDonald
  
  Privacy laws don’t extend immunity for those breaking them because they believe something or other, such as a person allegedly receiving 2 letters. Also have to remember the allegation is that the information was leaked, not something the leaker put their name too in the belief that they were doing something that was legal.
  On the other hand one of the people named in the proceedings Paula Bennett is on the public record for breaking privacy laws and said she would do it again.
  
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  November 3, 2019 11:29am
Tony Stuart

There’s a public health emergency been declared in Delhi, with pollution TWENTY TIMES what the World Health Organisation considers safe. All schools are closed, and manufacturing businesses have been ordered to shut down operations until air quality improves.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/01/world/asia/delhi-pollution-health-emergency.html

Where’s Greta Thunberg when a country actually needs help?
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November 3, 2019 8:22am
- Paulus Gnome
  
  ‘Where’s Greta Thunberg?’
  
  I would hope she is hiding under the stairs from her parents until such time as the help that she needs arrives.
  
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  November 3, 2019 8:34am
  - Paulus Gnome
    
    An hour in moderation, tick tick tick . . .
    
    I know the Bangles sung about video killing the radio star, are you guys some sort spawn of the Bangles working in this medium?
    
    Actually, don’t answer, I don’t really want to know.
    
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    November 3, 2019 9:32am
    - UrbanNeocolonialist
      
      Buggles, amusingly the wiki entry for them says “not to be confused with the Bangles”
      
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      November 3, 2019 11:34am
      - Paulus Gnome
        
        Thank you. My forte in the quiz team is really obscure shit that even I don’t know I know until asked and the periodic table.
        
        When we get to music and sport I am poo and, can’t understand how we lost to the English last week after watching the final last night.
        
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        November 3, 2019 12:58pm
  - Fletch
    
    She’s hobnobbing with Leonardo DeCaprio at the moment (true).
    
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    November 3, 2019 12:33pm
- Komata
  
  Tony S@0822
  
  Where’s Greta?
  
  Swanning around the WESTERN world in private aircraft followed by her adoring fans, media and minders, the latter being very careful to make very, very sure that she will never, ever go anywhere near the places where real pollution actually occurs; places where the ‘real’ people actually have to live and get on with their lives.
  
  I suspect that were she to go to Delhi, Mumbai or any of the other cities in India to preach her message, she would be told very impolitely and quickly where she should go – and it wouldn’t be to the next street.
  
  Being a privileged little brat does have its advantages…
  
  BTW: Have you noticed that she never, ever, actually DOES anything herself to reduce pollution … It’s all ‘noise’
  
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  November 3, 2019 8:37am
- G152
  
  Gretas looking for a ride to her next performance.
  Millionaires with 80 meter booze boats only need apply.
  (With underwater spinnakers)
  
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  November 3, 2019 8:48am
- stephieboy
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  Tony Stuart, unlike you she’s not a magician by being there everywhere !
  
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  November 3, 2019 9:10am
  - Paulus Gnome
    
    Wtf?
    
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    November 3, 2019 1:12pm
- chaos
  
  No elections to interfere with there?
  
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  November 3, 2019 9:25am
- the deity formerly known as nigel6888
  
  Can she fly in enough crews for her racing yacht so she can get there in time to help?
  
  Just asking for a friend!
  
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  November 3, 2019 10:02am
- sooty
  
  Were she’s always been, follow the money!
  
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  November 3, 2019 10:18am
- Liberty
  
  Last I head the odious child was swanning around California. Hope she is enjoying the carbon infested air.
  
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  November 3, 2019 10:23am
  - sooty
    
    Will she catch the train to the east coast!
    
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    November 3, 2019 12:05pm
- Brian McDonald
  
  What would Greta be able to do Tony that you could not?
  
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  November 3, 2019 10:29am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    I doubt I could encourage school children to wag classes as effectively as Greta does Brian, but I suspect that she and I would have an equal effect in combatting pollution in India, i.e. none at all!
    
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    November 3, 2019 11:17am
    - Brian McDonald
      
      I agree on both accounts Tony.
      
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      November 3, 2019 11:46am
    - stephieboy
      
      Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
      Tony Stuart, the Greta obssession continues!
      
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      November 3, 2019 12:08pm
- DigNap15
  
  And Delhi is growing fast every day.
  
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  November 3, 2019 2:27pm
- sealegs
  
  Just got back from India last week, they have banned plastic shopping bags except for the thick ones and plastic straws. But as you walk along the average Indian thinks nothing of throwing plastic wrapping at your feet. Until the attitude changes India will always be a basket case.
  
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  November 3, 2019 4:36pm
igm

Lovely to see those Polish people in Pahiatua . . . what a great bunch of hard-working, self-motivated, achieving, decent people they are.
Pity those now masquerading here as refugees did not take a leaf out of their books instead of trying to force acceptance of customs, religion and beliefs on us.
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November 3, 2019 8:22am
- MCos
  
  I’ve met a few refugees over the years.
  I’ve never met any that have tried to force their religion on me.
  On the other hand.
  We have a steady stream of those Watchtower peddlers knocking on our door, particularly since they’ve found out my wife is Thai.
  Now, I’m an affable sort of bloke, but they, and you, are trying my patience.
  We’ve also had Mormons come a-knocking. At least they’re ethnic Pacific Islanders and are therefore easily distracted talking about the Warriors, and help in the garden leaving little time for the God stuff, much to the frustration of the earnest, pint sized, American, pimply faced, ’elders’, rapidly losing control of the situation.
  
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  November 3, 2019 9:11am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    I concur MCos. I’ve had a bit to do with a lot of refugees from all sorts of cultures and backgrounds, and none has tried to force their culture on me. The includes Islamic families.
    
    Most are simply grateful for the opportunity of a fresh start in their new “home”, and they work hard to make the best of it. That makes New Zealand a much less bland and more interesting place.
    
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    November 3, 2019 11:13am
    - ISeeRed
      
      Yes, many Muslim refugees (and non-refugees) as well as other “new New Zealanders” will be very nice to your face in English. You don’t know what they say behind closed doors in their native languages about what mugs we are. They will remain more loyal to their own ethnicity, culture and/or country of origin than their new “home”. As they grow in number over the generations, acquiring more economic power and political clout, they will become…less nice. And more forceful.
      
      As for NZ apparently being too bland and uninteresting for your very sophisticated discerning tastes, not everyone shares your elitism. Why don’t you move to somewhere more exciting and vibrant? Why should NZ society have to undergo permanent irreversible demographic changes just to cater to your personal preferences and fleeting whims?
      
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      November 4, 2019 3:53am
    - igm
      
      Abject and utter rubbish.
      
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      November 4, 2019 8:10am
  - Shaun the Sheep
    
    I was under attack from the door-knocking god-botherers some years ago. I politely asked each group that arrived on my doorstep not to call again, and they would shuffle along.
    Then I recognised a face that I had moved on before and I reminded her that I did not welcome the visits.
    She told me that if I felt that way I could write in and have my name removed from their list.
    Such was the mushroom cloud as I made my point unambiguously, they didn’t return and I didn’t have to write in.
    
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    November 3, 2019 4:21pm
- stephieboy
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  ‘ masquerading here as refugees”
  
  That will have to be Muslim ones , eh?
  
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  November 3, 2019 9:12am
  - sooty
    
    Yep. You got that in a nutshell!
    
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    November 3, 2019 12:07pm
- cmm
  
  The difference: the modern lot are just welfare shopping, not really refugees.
  
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  November 3, 2019 9:57am
  - stephieboy
    
    All refugees just welfare bludgers? Now I wonder why your oneliner was highlighted?
    
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    November 3, 2019 12:06pm
    - igm
      
      Not the genuine ones, they went to work in any position that paid a wage . . . today’s are satisfied to live off anyone they can without effort.
      
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      November 3, 2019 2:28pm
- Inandout
  
  And the Danes in Dannevirke.
  
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  November 3, 2019 10:04am
- The Proper Ghandi
  
  igm
  Language is very important. We likely don’t have any refugees in this country. By definition, you are only a refugee when you reach the first safe country subsequent to leaving your own country. After that, you are an immigrant pure and simple. If any of these people have stopped-over on the way to New Zealand (which is almost certain), then they have lost any refugee status.
  
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  November 3, 2019 1:13pm
MCos

Last night’s game shows just how hard it is to win against the best teams around two weeks in a row.
England may well have beaten RSA last week the way they played against the ABs.
Wales gave RSA a pretty good run last week, but even though England beat the ABs they had to play at 110%.
BTW
I’ve never seen anyone at the olympics refuse to wear their silver or bronze medal even when they thought they were going to win beforehand.
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November 3, 2019 8:47am
Gandolfo

The Winston Peters vs the Attorney General et al case beginning tomorrow is about character, Winston Peter’s character. It will all be revealed in the questions and answers and this is not in Parliament this time, it is a Court of Law, what discovery has not revealed, the spoken words and attitudes will.
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November 3, 2019 8:50am
John Warren

So ILG continues to be an asshat and tries to deflect blame onto the nine long years of neglect. But I, for one, wouldn’t be particularly upset if INZ proved incapable of processing visa applications, especially from India. Driving around the city these days gives the impression that rather a lot of visas are being approved.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/402379/visa-delays-a-real-human-problem
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November 3, 2019 8:55am
Maggie Pie

It dawned as yet another glorious God Given Day here on the Northern Slopes.

Just arrived home from early Mass …

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EH9Htm4WoAAfNPy?format=jpg&name=small
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November 3, 2019 9:02am
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  Maggie, I love the comments you make on here. You have a great sense of humour, but I wish you wouldn’t keep reminding us that you’re a God-botherer.
  As for my Sunday morning, I’ve been cleaning up the barbecue and painting the side of the garage.
  I hope you don’t mind.
  Cheers, The Captain.
  
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  November 3, 2019 11:34am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    We hears ya’ Capt’n … 😀
    
    https://i.imgflip.com/2517de.jpg
    
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    November 3, 2019 11:49am
  - John Warren
    
    Captain, are you sure that Maggie is a God-botherer in the typical sense of the term? I do imagine that she bothers God, quite considerably at times.
    
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    November 3, 2019 12:35pm
  - Tony Stuart
    
    There’s nothing wrong with being a God-botherer Captain, as long as you don’t try to shove your God down other people’s throats.
    
    I subscribe to the wise words of St Francis of Assisi; “Preach the Gospel at all times, and when that fails, used words”
    
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    November 3, 2019 1:02pm
    - JackRabbit
      
      Said the actress to the bishop…
      
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      November 3, 2019 3:34pm
    - JackRabbit
      
      A man, down on his luck, went into a church which catered to the “uppity”. Spotting the man’s dirty clothes, a deacon, worried about the churches image, went to the man and asked him if he needed help. The man said, “I was praying and the Lord told me to come to this church.”
      
      The deacon suggested that the man go home and pray some more and possibly he might get a different answer. The next Sunday the man returned. The deacon asked, “Did you get a different answer?”
      
      The man replied, “Yes I did. I told the Lord that they don’t want me in that church and the Lord said, ‘Don’t worry about it son; I’ve been trying to get into that church for years and haven’t made it yet either.”
      
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      November 3, 2019 3:52pm
      - Tony Stuart
        
        I’ve heard that joke before, but in that instance, the church in question was Rev Ian Paisley’s church!
        
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        November 3, 2019 5:51pm
stephieboy

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
A new twist to the impeachment saga The President saved at last with the dramatic intervention by Franklin Graham ( son of Billy the famous Evangelist ) calling on all Christians to pray for America’s saviour as impeachment looms. Bizarre

https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/administration/468557-franklin-graham-asks-public-to-pray-for-trump-over-impeachment-probe%3famp

Staggering ! Bizzarre!
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November 3, 2019 9:14am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Franklin’s a man who’s opinion I much respect.
  However how can I give DEMS credit–by their attempt to subvert a Court with freshly created evidence; by denying a legitimate President to rights of Office; by furiously launching investigations based on non-existent witnesses?
  
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  November 3, 2019 1:32pm
stephieboy

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
The real story in South Africa’s demolition of Engalnd was their Captain Siya Kolisi . A real rags to riches story growing up in poverty ( his family couldn;t afford a TV so he used to go down to the local pub to watch his passion Rugby)

This is a real “Power of One” story that will hopefully be made into a movie!

I was frankly skeptical thinking his Captaincy was a bit tof Tokenism

Not so!

Also a massive blow for those who bad-mouth post-apartheid South Africa !
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November 3, 2019 9:24am
- Liberty
  
  Such dribble.
  Next you will claiming
  Minto and his urban terrorists are responsible for South Africa winning the cup.
  
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  November 3, 2019 11:52am
- JackRabbit
  
  Winning rugby does not imply or in any way condone the massive increase in murders, rapes, land acquisitions, crime, lawlessness and destruction of private property and liberty at the hands a socialist robber government.
  
  A rugby game win cannot be used as a get out of jail card against the crimes of the government against its people, of all colours.
  
  Your mental profile suggested by that statement is very unhealthy.
  
  Clearly you have never lived in South Africa, and do not have teenage children that were raised in South Africa.
  
  If you have been to South Africa it would have been on a “guided tour” designed to show and indoctrinate you with whatever beliefs you hold dear.
  
  Life in Africa is lawless and harsh, and any vestige of justice and right and wrong is being dissolved day by day.
  
  When you have to carry a loaded pistol just to go get a meal at a local restaurant. When students have to carry a gun in their car for protection not only from car jackers and rapists, but also the corrupt police, it is sad day.
  
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  November 3, 2019 4:10pm
chaos

* Why the rest of us are paying to keeping Auckland’s lights on
Steven Joyce

Will Southland get the Taranaki treatment?

I hold no brief for Rio Tinto or its aluminium smelter but I am a fan of Southland, and I don’t think Southland is getting a fair deal.

It’s worse than that. Southland looks like it might be getting lined up for the “Taranaki Treatment” from the government.*

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/117114862/opinion-why-the-rest-of-us-are-paying-to-keeping-aucklands-lights-on
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November 3, 2019 9:28am
- peterwn
  
  I would not be too fussed if Rio wrings transmission concessions out of Transpower and/or the Government or something in lieu. It may be that Meridian as the principal supplier to the smelter may need to bear the ‘excess’ transmission cost itself at least until the EA can sort out something better.
  But then it all comes down to what is Rio’s real ‘bottom line’. This is something Rio keeps under its hat, but Meridian would have a pretty shrewd idea what it is.
  
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  November 3, 2019 11:49am
  - Paulus
    
    Can’t as little Tubby from Christchurch has already said there ill not be any more money for Tiwai Point – and she cannot be wrong.
    
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    November 3, 2019 1:53pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    NZ may need Tiwai Point as a source of foreign exchange. That was it’s purpose and it has served well turning Aus bauxite into NZ Aluminium producing overseas dollars for NZ.
    It remains as a buffer at least.
    NZ are nobodies in the global markets. Our trade receipts can be slashed at any time or another oil shock imposed.
    
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    November 3, 2019 4:13pm
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  “Southland looks like it might be getting lined up for the “Taranaki Treatment” from the government.”
  
  Serves them right. Like Taranaki, they vote National.
  
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  November 3, 2019 12:57pm
  - Brian McDonald
    
    Better reason to ‘sweeten’ them up.
    Big labour shortage in Auckland.
    
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    November 3, 2019 3:12pm
De Vinci 333

Now that Team New Zealand have 5g feeding data real time to their base, they will be making more well-informed decisions in one day that the coalition government have made in two years in office.

It is hard to fathom how this government makes any decisions when they refuse to collect or use accurate data.
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November 3, 2019 9:35am
- sooty
  
  Data has no value if you have a bunch of untrained monkeys in government!
  
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  November 3, 2019 12:15pm
jcuk

The latest from Muriel Newman at NZCPR questions if Labour is soft on welfare and guest writer

https://www.nzcpr.com/the-road-to-hell-is-paved-with-good-intentions/

tells us that given all the options somebody on welfare could get around $950pw while if they got a job paying the minimum wage would be only around $700.

So why would a person give up the welfare for a job. Nobody I would suggest but if we want to reduce the cost of welfare I came up with the following….

In such a situation the case officer should work out the difference and making allowance for costs involved in doing the job, transport/protective clothing etc, make an adjustment to the welfare payment so that the person is not worse off or better with a small financial advantage when they take the job and get their first paypacket.

This would save the country much of the benefit payment while getting somebody into the workforce.

Sadly I suspect there would be an outcry against such a pragmatic solution though one could hope for common sense prevailing.
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November 3, 2019 9:55am
- The Proper Ghandi
  
  It’s harder to reduce or remove unearned ‘entitlements’ than it is to increasingly suck the productive dry in order to pay for the hoards of State dependents.
  
  The welfare state has morphed into an obscene abuse of all taxpayers. Resentment is building.
  
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  November 3, 2019 1:23pm
  - DigNap15
    
    yes I think that most working people resent paying benefits to people who can clearly work.
    I see to have two of them living next to me.
    They are home all day.
    And have a nice car and an expensive rental. and another sprog pops out every 4 years.
    
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    November 3, 2019 2:31pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  The example leaves out WFF and a possible accommodation supplement to those on minimum incomes. These are universal adjustments.
  
  The real situation is that lower income wage earners are being dragged down to beneficiary levels.
  Try getting a 40 hr week job. A large number are “zero hours”. Employees are being expected to manage their lives without any reward so an employer can ring them up with an offer of 6 hours work. The benefit levels are still only sustenance with careful spending.
  
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  November 3, 2019 1:44pm
  - Sideoiler
    
    A large number are “zero hours”. Employees are being expected to manage their lives without any reward so an employer can ring them up with an offer of 6 hours work.
    
    No, zero hour contract have been outlawed.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/11/zero-hour-contracts-banned-in-new-zealand
    
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    November 3, 2019 2:42pm
    - KevO'Brien
      
      They don’t call them that–it’s just some employment terms. Work is only available when they call you…
      My family know it well at the present time.
      
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      November 3, 2019 4:02pm
- artemisia
  
  Could follow the UK and cap benefits at 2 children. That was designed to stop those on the sofa having more income than workers. Simpler than your suggestion jcuk.
  
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  November 3, 2019 2:05pm
Maggie Pie

Summer is definately here. From our upstairs windows we have fab views out over the sparkling Waitemata – in the distance we can see hundreds of colorful little ‘P Class’ yachts enjoying this beautiful day. As my partner just said, “…you really have to take your hat off to this country’s British Forefathers, who had the incredible foresight to purchase all this amazing real estate from the Auckland Iwi all those years ago”.
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November 3, 2019 10:14am
Brian McDonald

This says something about South Africa and the power of sport to bring people together – and its the people that lifted the trophy saying that. Despite NZ losing, if would be a rare sports fan or kiwi that does not embrace the strength of these men and others saying its bringing something good together to South Africa. Rassie, Siya and the others are bringing hope – the quiet story that unfolded and will hopefully burn bright over this world cup for years to come. Cometh the hour coming the man – 2 great men 1 black, 1 white walking together fearlessly into a better future for their people. I hope South Africa gets behind them.
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/sport/rugby-union/springboks-coach-hails-inspirational-captain/ar-AAJJPjb?ocid=spartandhp
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November 3, 2019 10:27am
- The Proper Ghandi
  
  South Africa is finished. It will be Zimabwe 2.0 and for the same reasons.
  
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  November 3, 2019 10:37am
  - Brian McDonald
    
    Another former boks captain spoke of 2 hashtags #one together – was the first I think without being able to find it again now, the 2nd was #stay.
    He lives there, as does Rassie and Siya – I don’t. I wish them the very best for the country they see as the future.
    
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    November 3, 2019 11:58am
    - The Proper Ghandi
      
      It will take more than a hashtag to save them now #farmmurders #landexpropriation
      
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      November 3, 2019 12:02pm
      - Brian McDonald
        
        Of course it will not save them in itself, the hashtags however and a World Cup win are symbolic of change. Good on those that band together for a stop to the violence against farmers, they should be supported not ridiculed from afar.
        
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        November 3, 2019 3:25pm
      - The Proper Ghandi
        
        With respect Brian, I don’t begrudge the Boks a World Cup win and I congratulate them, but it is ultimately the result of happenstance and the vicissitudes regarding results in the tournament. So it is fairly superficial.
        
        The wider point though, is that South Africa was the most successful nation in the continent, for the unpalatable reason that it was run along the lines of a Western state. Apartheid is a dark chapter, but there is a correlation and probably causation between giving blacks far more power and influence. Ditto Zimbabwe. I struggle to think of an advanced nation that did not become that way via, let’s be honest, the influence of white/European people or those with that world view and set of core values (e.g. broadly Judeo-Christian ethics, free-markets, respect for private property, the primacy of the sovereign individual, scientific world-view etc.). However, I am open to correction on this point.
        
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        November 3, 2019 3:44pm
  - stephieboy
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    Like the myth of White Farmer genocide and the impending bloodbath predicted post apartheid!
    
    1 37
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    November 3, 2019 12:03pm
    - rightoverlabour
      
      Denier.
      
      10 1
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      November 3, 2019 2:14pm
  - Brian McDonald
    
    I don’t disagree with anything you say about SA TPG and the relative unimportance of the win in the broader SA picture. Maybe this was just a temporary blimp on the horizon though it seems it could be much more, or maybe I should say I wish that would be a beginning of the end of things you have noted. NZ spoke once before about apartheid, perhaps now should be the time it speaks about the destruction. I reckon those men that won last night would have some thoughts on that because they climbed the mountain together after coming from all corners of the same country.
    
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    November 3, 2019 8:16pm
chaos

This is sad and I doubt we will hear from our government over this

* MPs in the Cook Islands have done a u-turn on promises to decriminalise homosexuality, under pressure from the churches.

Two years ago, in a step welcomed by many people including the gay and lesbian communities, the Pacific nation’s Parliament removed “indecent acts between men” and sodomy from a draft Crimes Bill.

On Saturday, select committee chairman Tingika Elikana said they would reinstate the clause.

In fact, in an unintended consequence of moves to make legislation gender-neutral, the anticipated effect of the bill will be to also criminalise sex between women, as well as between men.*

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/117125807/under-pressure-from-churches-cook-islands-mps-back-down-on-samesex-law-reform
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November 3, 2019 10:34am
sooty

Cook islands don’t want no body batting for the other side!
11 1
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November 3, 2019 10:41am
Swifty

Well, well, well….

Cook Island politicians, under pressure from Christian groups, reinsert into law punishments for gay sex by men and now women also.

These New Zealand citizens, are signatories of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex – but have tossed that out the window in legislating for up to seven years jail for back-door banditry.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/117125807/under-pressure-from-churches-cook-islands-mps-back-down-on-samesex-law-reform

Will we see marches up and down Lambton Quay or Queen St? Will the NZ government place pressure on them to change their ways, including withholding development aid?

Or will the silence be deafening?
21 2
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November 3, 2019 10:57am
- MrTips
  
  It’ll put a stop to Labour MP holidays there, that’s for sure!
  
  18 0
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  November 3, 2019 12:33pm
  - Swifty
    
    Heh.
    
    3 0
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    November 3, 2019 1:53pm
rightoverlabour

I know its only weather and one snow storm does not an Ice Age make, but it’s so nice not to see alarmist headlines on how hot it is….

https://electroverse.net/snowiest-halloweens-ever-in-milwaukee-madison-and-rockford-breaking-100-year-old-records/

Pity the poor fool that lamented that his kids or grand kids would never see snow…..
13 0
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November 3, 2019 11:18am
- chaos
  
  Pity the farmers that were still harvesting crops.
  
  10 0
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  November 3, 2019 11:43am
  - rightoverlabour
    
    One or two more winters like this and the world may have a real crisis to deal with. 7Bn people is a lot to feed when very little can be harvested….
    
    6 0
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    November 3, 2019 2:16pm
    - chaos
      
      Yeah, we already noticed the past few summers the vegetable gardens didn’t produce as much because of the cooler weather in summer.
      
      4 0
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      November 3, 2019 3:02pm
  - Pharmachick
    
    Yes. Potatoes are all in now round here, but pumpkin and other winter squash are still being harvested. However we had torrential rain in September that caused havoc for the famers in lower mainland and Okanagan – some potatoes, carrots, maize and wheat nearly went un-harvested. I feel for Milwaukee farmers, they also have to deal with Lake Effect weather that can be super harsh in the swing seasons (Spring/Fall).
    
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    November 3, 2019 3:23pm
Hugh Pavletich

CHINA …

China’s economy struggles as consumers tighten belts … Joe McDonald … APNews

https://apnews.com/2b9694c3bc65410abdb2ceb8aebc0fe8

BEIJING (AP) — With home sales crashing, real estate agent Zhang Yonggang is tightening his belt, part of a plunge in Chinese consumer demand that is a bigger threat to economic growth than Beijing’s tariff war with Washington.

Zhang, who works in the central city of Taiyuan, said his office sold no apartments last month after Beijing tightened lending controls in July to rein in housing costs and debt. Zhang, 42 and married with a teenage son, said his income has fallen by half from a year ago.

“I have no money to buy a home and no plans to change cars,” Zhang said. “It is definitely the toughest time I’ve ever seen.” … read more via hyperlink above …
.
.
China Now Has An Answer To Its Housing Crisis – It’s Called Rent … Wade Shepard … Forbes

https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2019/10/29/china-now-has-an-answer-to-its-housing-crisisits-called-rent/#40e9189e1a60

… extract …

… Property prices in China have become some of the most expensive in the world, having more than quadrupled since 2000. By early 2018, the average price-to-income ratio for a house in one of China’s top cities was a startling 34.9 years—meaning that it would take nearly 35 years of an average salary to pay for an average home. Even while China’s middle class continues to grow, the rising cost of housing has doubled that of disposable income. Compounding this issues is that not only are housing prices rising to unaffordable heights, but larger down payments are being required and mortgage interest rates are going up, making buying a home seem more and more like a far off dream for the average Chinese millennial.

Meanwhile, rent is still very affordable. For example, as of June 2018, the average monthly cost of a mortgage in China’s top cities was 16,000 yuan per month, while the average rent was less than half that at 7,000 yuan, according to a JLL report.

The rationale is now sinking in that for many of China’s younger generation buying a house prior to marriage may actually be fiscally irresponsible, and “nude weddings”—where neither party owns a home—are not only becoming more common but are starting to seem like a good idea.

“For any new family to buy property is impossible for someone who has just started their career. It’s just impossible,” Chao lamented. “Like, a house in Pudong will cost whatever I’m going to make for the rest of my life.” … read more via hyperlink above …
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November 3, 2019 11:38am
Tauhei Notts

I see Pete Buttigieg has taken over from Bernie Sanders as the third placed Democrat in the USA.
I have always thought that Buttigieg would be unelectable, so I would welcome comments from people more knowledgeable than me on this matter.
6 0
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November 3, 2019 11:45am
- Maggie Pie
  
  You might be interested to know that Pete’s husband is a gent hailing from South Bend, by the name of…. Chasten.
  
  [chasten: (v) to correct by punishment or suffering]
  😛
  
  6 0
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  November 3, 2019 1:10pm
  - sooty
    
    You have wonder what his parents were up to to name him Chasten?
    
    3 0
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    November 3, 2019 1:58pm
- UrbanNeocolonialist
  
  Buttgag is not even close yet:
  
  https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html
  
  Interesting that the ‘fix’ is already in with regard to unconventional candidates; Yang and Gabbard are being noticeably excluded from coverage by (democrat controlled) MSM, even when even lower polling candidates are getting mentioned.
  
  3 0
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  November 3, 2019 2:33pm
- Pharmachick
  
  Buttigieg even though white, cannot carry the South because many (not all) remain racist homophobes. Before anybody sends slings and arrows my way… have you lived there or spent more than a 1-2 week holiday and actually had unguarded conversations with residents? Didn’t think so.
  
  Despite the problems with the south (and also big sky states like Montana, Wyoming and Utah) w/r/t Buttigieg’s sexuality, he can carry a lot of the progressive AND swing states (<– many of these are mid-western). Iowa seems to be coming round.
  
  Buttigeig gave a speech to Iowa that flat our floored many democrat, independent and swing voters. A partial transcript can be found here: https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/01/politics/pete-buttigieg-iowa-dinner-speech/index.html
  
  He's a veteran, Rhodes scholar, smart, thinks well on his feet, humble AND he has a genuine agenda that doesn't include bashing Trump [at least not all the time] (rare for democrats). Also, he's not likely to die in office (Biden, Sanders, Warren – we're looking at you septuagenarians).
  
  To start with I thought he was an also ran (TBH I think they are almost all "also rans" b/c the Dems aren't putting up anybody truly interesting)… but he seems to be building momentum. He's also not a "woke" SJW.
  
  Who knows, might happen as the candidate (although the Clinton/Dem machine will try to bury him when they work out he's a genuine contender now)… beating Trump in a general election… I'm less optimistic about that.
  
  Sincerely yours ex-US permanent resident of 12.5 years in 2 different states (one incredibly conservative, one incredibly liberal!) and hubby that lived in a 3rd (very, very conservative – NC) for 3 years.
  
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  November 3, 2019 3:34pm
chaos

The UN showing once again what a joke it is

* Officials at the United Nations are under fire for putting underwear on nude statues on display in Paris.

French sculptor Stéphane Simon’s work was on show at UN Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization’s (UNESCO) European Heritage Days event, CNN reports.

His exhibition In Memory of Me shows nude classical-style statues of people taking selfies. But someone at UNESCO thought they were a bit rude, so dressed them in thongs – and one was reportedly put in a baby’s nappy.

Simon isn’t happy, saying the vandalism left him “humiliated”.

“I felt ashamed, so deeply sad to see all these years of work and research broken,” he told CNN. “For two days visitors came to meet, to ask me: ‘But why did you do that?’ But it was not my choice.”*

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2019/11/artist-humiliated-after-nude-statues-naughty-bits-covered-up-with-thongs.html
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November 3, 2019 11:49am
- chaos
  
  .
  
  0 0
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  November 3, 2019 4:37pm
Maggie Pie

Anybody else here like me that’s absolutely sick and tired of hearing the name
“Siya Kolisi”?
7 5
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November 3, 2019 11:59am
- Paulus Gnome
  
  Not as much as Jacinda Adhern . . .
  
  21 0
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  November 3, 2019 1:21pm
- stephieboy
  
  Maggie Pie, not me. His is a remarkable journey to the top.
  
  Tall poppy syndrome running amok?
  
  If only he was white!
  
  What then?
  
  1 28
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  November 3, 2019 1:32pm
- MCos
  
  There’s a lot of other people I could think of before I got to that chap.
  For example that smart arse Scott Styris who put $50 on RSA to win by more than 15 points.
  Then there’s those fifty or sixty reporters coverings not much more than the weather for our TV while HK just down the road is in turmoil.
  About the only time they earned their keep was when that typhoon blew threw.
  
  10 1
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  November 3, 2019 1:39pm
- SGA
  
  No, not really. My major problem is that when he’s referred to by his surname, I can’t stop myself thinking of Daenerys Targaryen.
  
  2 0
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  November 3, 2019 2:15pm
Maggie Pie

We have just been outside enjoying lunch by the pool and listening to the tranny.
My partner was saying the more he hears from Shane Jones, the more he likes him.
8 0
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November 3, 2019 1:28pm
- sooty
  
  So you think Shane Jones is a tranny?
  
  7 0
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  November 3, 2019 1:55pm
  - MrTips
    
    I’m sure Jonesy is the drawcard at downtown Paihia on Saturday night when he turns up, kitted to max and rambling on about his magnificent taniwha
    
    3 0
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    November 3, 2019 3:23pm
krazykiwi

I have absolutely no fear of my granddugher’s life being impacted by CLimate Change™. Anyone without an economic conflict of interest, and with a willingness to learn more about the topic from sources other than the MSM should feel similarly.

However What really concerns me is the rise of eco-fascists like XR, and the willingness of our current political leadership to give them oxygen. To wit:
Thousands of Britons invited to climate crisis citizens’ assembly.
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November 3, 2019 2:23pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Ah yes,
  the elite deciding who can be listened to..
  https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/11/02/nigel-farage-exposes-extinction-rebellions-plan-to-topple-representative-democracy/
  
  3 0
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  November 3, 2019 8:40pm
chaos

Absolute scum of the earth

* An elderly woman has been “smashed, bashed and left for dead” in what her family describes as a violent home invasion in Levin.

On Saturday, the 90-year-old opened her Bath St door to young girls after one said she needed to use the toilet. She was then allegedly brutally attacked before they stole items from the house.

“I’m sitting here in ABSOLUTE Shock. Our children’s grandmother, my husband’s mother, my mother-in-law. 90 years young,” one family member posted to Facebook.

“Opened her door to [two] young girls, one needing to use the toilet…. smashed bashed and left for dead.

“Love you Grace. I’m so sorry this has happened.”

Police say they are seeking the public’s help to identify those responsible.*

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/11/brutal-home-invasion-in-levin-leaves-90yo-woman-in-hospital.html
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November 3, 2019 2:27pm
- igm
  
  Oh, but the offenders have a lot of good in them, they should be given a 30% reduction in sentences; in fact they should be acquitted because it is unfair to penalise these unfortunate results of nine years of National. Becroft will take them to his home as personal guests integrating them into his family.
  
  13 2
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  November 3, 2019 3:10pm
  - Komata
    
    Igm@1510
    
    Surely Sir, you joke; Mr Beecroft would no more take such people into his home than a Penguin be made to fly backwards!!
    
    It’s so much easier to merely sit and pontificate at length, when you have a very high level of self-importance, and in that context the very idea of actually becoming DIRECTLY INVOLVED with the ‘Lower Orders’ is so bizarre as to be verging on the quaint; he would never, ever, do that – they might contaminate him…
    
    ‘Position’ DOES give one a certain ‘immunity’…
    
    6 0
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    November 3, 2019 5:07pm
- Komata
  
  Chaos @1427
  
  Dollar to a doughnut as to the ethnic group of the females involved?
  
  (Happy to be proven completely wrong, but there is a precedent set many times over…)
  
  8 0
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  November 3, 2019 3:33pm
- Pharmachick
  
  THROW. THE. BOOK. AT. THEM.
  
  5 0
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  November 3, 2019 3:42pm
- greybeard
  
  Maybe if the police gave us some sort of description of these creeps then they would be apprehended quicker.
  
  7 1
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  November 3, 2019 3:49pm
  - chaos
    
    Yeah that’s what puzzled me reading it, where is the even basics
    
    4 0
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    November 3, 2019 4:36pm
- chaos
  
  Thank god for that, the story has been updated. Thanks to the police and anyone that gave information on these useless pieces of shit
  
  * Police have arrested two youths over the brutal home invasion of a 90-year-old Levin woman.
  
  “The two young people will be appearing in the Levin Youth Court tomorrow charged with Aggravated Robbery,” a police spokesperson says.*
  
  9 0
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  November 3, 2019 4:39pm
  - Pharmachick
    
    Aggravated robbery?
    
    More like attempted murder.
    
    When will the fucking cops and the crown prosecutors office do their fucking jobs?
    
    When will average NZ taxpayers get looked after by these systems, as opposed to looking after and babysitting the Ferals?
    
    3 0
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    November 3, 2019 7:50pm
- MCos
  
  There’s also people like this. As the Woody Guthrie song goes, some people will rob you with a six gun and some with a fountain pen.
  
  ‘ The stories of Robertson’s victims made for sad reading, Justice Katz said.
  
  One was now so suspicious of financial people he refuses to deposit his money in a bank, while another man in his 60s has been forced to remortgage his farm.
  
  Most of the 22 victims lost most if not all of their invested money, the judge said in her written reasons for the verdicts, which were provided to the Herald.
  
  The victims, Justice Katz said, were largely elderly, financially naïve, and inexperienced with trading or financial markets.’
  
  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12280614
  
  3 1
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  November 3, 2019 6:00pm
- chaos
  
  Great police work, another update
  
  * Three people have been arrested after the assault of a 90-year-old woman in a Levin home invasion, which left her blackened and bruised.*
  
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/117128202/90yearold-woman-attacked-in-her-levin-home-by-two-females
  
  2 0
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  November 3, 2019 9:05pm
Fletch

Watch this bitch Debbie Wasserman Schultz, and your blood will boil. Mine did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UwdvCAEMCA
5 2
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November 3, 2019 3:17pm
Swifty

FFS.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12281939

The sole determinant of who should be the next AB coach is the lethality they will enable on the field.

Everything else is secondary.
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November 3, 2019 3:54pm
- chaos
  
  Stale pale, nice bit of journalist racism there.
  
  My bet is the next all blacks coach will be a Sweet Transvestite From Transexual, Transylvania.
  
  6 0
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  November 3, 2019 4:35pm
  - mandk
    
    … Who has never played rugby.
    It would be unfair to exclude people just because they have no experience.
    
    4 1
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    November 3, 2019 5:51pm
Swifty

Scum, born of shit parents, now on the bennie, living in social housing, almost certainly think themselves the victims.

Way past time that the welfare state, through resultant dependency, rightly shares some blame.
6 1
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November 3, 2019 3:59pm
- Swifty
  
  Sorry, response to chaos @2.27pm
  
  3 0
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  November 3, 2019 4:17pm
Komata

Information please:

As I asked yesterday, what was the result of the Labour camp sex-attack Court case on Thursday?

Name suppression, Home D and told not to be a naughty boy?

The MSM seem to be ignoring it, so what actually was the result?

Thanks.
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November 3, 2019 4:56pm
- chaos
  
  Last I read he was to be sentenced in November, have you got a link that says it was November 1st?
  
  4 0
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  November 3, 2019 6:21pm
  - chaos
    
    Never mind found It, sentencing is November 6th
    
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/115527128/labour-youth-camp-trial-accused-got-caught-up-in-political-storm-lawyer-says
    
    5 0
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    November 3, 2019 7:06pm
KevO'Brien

A strong expression against a treasonous ill..
https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2019/10/30/the-piece-of-presstitute-excrement-known-as-the-nytimes-has-had-to-admit-that-yes-there-is-a-deep-state-at-war-with-president-trump/
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November 3, 2019 4:57pm
Spam

Is this really the best “haka” image stuff could find?

https://static3.stuff.co.nz/tj-loop-50px-fb3b0bf5.gif
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November 3, 2019 5:34pm
Komata

Chaos @1906

Thank you.

This quote from the article says it all IMHO; it certainly helps to have ‘Powerful friends’…

‘A young man cleared of claims he sexually assaulted people at a Young Labour Party summer camp got caught up in a “political storm” and was never a sexual offender, his lawyer says.

The 21-year-old man was facing five counts of indecent assault against two men and two women, but admitted two counts of assault after the Crown withdrew the original charges.

The alleged incidents took place at a Young Labour summer camp in Waihi in February 2018 and the man was arrested four months later.

The ‘Offender’s lawyer indicated she would be applying for her client to be discharged without conviction and for permanent name suppression. ‘

Mummy will be pleased…

Shame about the victims, but hey, they’re of no consequence; collateral damage, cos THE PARTY MUST be protected at all costs.
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November 3, 2019 7:27pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  The “political storm” was not raging when he assaulted the victims.
  
  10 1
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  November 3, 2019 7:39pm
  - chaos
    
    It is Ironic that this government talks about sexual abuse victims and protecting them when their actions shave shown completely the opposite in a number of labour sexual abuse scandals
    
    6 0
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    November 3, 2019 7:51pm
  - sooty
    
    Will he be shipped overseas?
    Bet it’s not to the Cooks
    
    3 0
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    November 3, 2019 8:38pm
    - igm
      
      It has shown the Labour scum for what they are . . . filth!
      
      0 0
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      November 4, 2019 8:06am
Kabull

Ten years since ‘climate gate’ and still our leaders peddle the nonsense that we are all doomed. This article by Dr Kelvin Kemm presents a simple explanation of what happened and where we have come since 2009. I enjoyed his final para:

We in the developing world will no longer let climate truth be suppressed. We will not allow loud, radical activists to put the brakes on African economic development, jobs, and improved health and living standards, in the name of advancing their anti-human, wealth redistribution agendas.

https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2019/11/dr-kelvin-kemm-climategate-ten-years.html

And, coincidentally, our friends in Stuff have been lauding the ‘great’ James Renwick, peddler of pending climate disaster stories and recipient of 30 years of government funding: https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/116804801/climate-scientist-james-renwick-talks-the-talk-on-climate-change
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November 3, 2019 9:11pm

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