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November 24, 2019 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 24 November 2019

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tas

As terrible as the Grace Millane saga has been for those involved, it has shone some much-needed light on our justice system.

In particular, it has exposed the ridiculousness of our name suppression laws. The convicted killer’s name is suppressed while the victim’s private life is being used as clickbait. Meanwhile anyone with an internet connection can bypass the name suppresison by looking at the UK media coverage that isn’t bound by the name suppresion order.

However, I think something else also needs to be discussed, as covered by this article:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/117650838/grace-millane-trial-what-the-jury-didnt-hear

TLDR: The crown wanted 11 of the killer’s previous dates to testify, but only 2 were allowed to testify. The judge presiding over the trial initially allowed 9 of those witnesses to testify, but the defence appealed and this was reduced to 2. The Court of Appeal’s reasoning has not been made public.

What is the point of a jury trial if they do not get to see all the evidence? Shouldn’t they decide what evidence to consider? Can someone explain why the evidence is hidden from the jury?
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November 24, 2019 8:00am
- John Warren
  
  “The convicted killer’s name is suppressed while the victim’s private life is being used as clickbait.”
  
  Other than Ms Millane’s death itself, this is by far the most disgusting aspect of the whole saga.
  
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  November 24, 2019 8:14am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    TVNZ has has excelled as exploitative tabloid, and in children watch time too.
    
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    November 24, 2019 8:41am
    - Sacha
      
      But the radio stations, ZB and Magic, enthusiastically reported juicy little details as well. The woman news readers with their earnest voices -and no doubt po-faces – every 30 minutes!
      Click! went the off button!.
      
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      November 24, 2019 11:12am
- artemisia
  
  The issue of evidence not allowed was covered extensively in Lynley Hood’s book on the Peter Ellis case. There almost all of the children’s complaints were not allowed. Same reasons here no doubt.
  
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  November 24, 2019 8:16am
  - slightlyrighty
    
    Evidence not allowed is a double edged sword. In the Millaine case, the defence stopped these 9 women from complaining as it would have made their client look bad. In the Civic Creche case, the prosecution decided what evidence to present as a full disclosure of all the evidence given by the children in the case would have shown it for what it really was. Hysterical Fantasy gone out of control.
    
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    November 24, 2019 9:50am
- SGA
  
  Can someone explain why the evidence is hidden from the jury?
  
  No, I can’t. But from the article –
  
  The man’s defence lawyers argued the jurors would use the witness evidence to “backfill” their knowledge on what happened to Grace inside the apartment.
  Following legal argument initially in the High Court and then the Court of Appeal, many of the witnesses were not included.
  
  Whatever that might mean.
  On the other hand, sometimes the court being conservative about what evidence is admitted is a good thing, however, because it gives fewer grounds for appeal.
  
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  November 24, 2019 8:20am
  - cmm
    
    The main point is that the bloke was supposed to be on trial for one thing: murder.
    
    Many of the other witnesses likely painted him as a sleaze: lying, manipulative, etc etc. Things that have no bearing on murder.
    
    Juries really struggle with compartmentalizing. If someone is mean to puppies that will end up as a black mark against them in a burglary trial.
    
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    November 24, 2019 10:54am
- G152
  
  From what is evident on the ‘overseas information’ there may be a lot more that didn’t get exposed.
  And how ridiculous for the socalled Justice minister thinking he can demand obedience from other countries and the Internet
  
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  November 24, 2019 8:23am
  - srylands
    
    It is totally futile. Why would UK news companies give a toss about New Zealand suppression orders? They are not acting unlawfully which is the only criterion they should apply.
    
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    November 24, 2019 8:57am
    - Captain Mainwaring
      
      It’s so easy to find the name of Grace’s killer with a very basic Google search.
      The rest of the world must be laughing at this obnoxious little bearded man from the fart’s end of the world thinking that name suppression rules can work in the internet age.
      A joke.
      
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      November 24, 2019 9:40am
  - Chuck Bird
    
    Has he not heard of other search engines besides Google? What a moron. Is the merderers relations big donors to Labour?
    
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    November 24, 2019 9:01am
  - cmm
    
    If anything perverted the course of justice here then it was PriNZess having a huge weep about it on TV.
    
    That can easily be considered unreasonably influencing a jury.
    
    Violating name supression etc much less so.
    
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    November 24, 2019 10:56am
- Notsofast
  
  More cases to consider, and where on the continuum the anonymous accused sits.
  
  Hint: Probably Not murder in the UK.
  
  https://wecantconsenttothis.uk/thewomen
  
  It is quite erroneous to compare this guy’s trial with Clayton Weatherstone’s as one female herald reporter has.
  
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  November 24, 2019 9:27am
- atomic drop
  
  “11 of the killer’s previous dates to testify…why the evidence is hidden from the jury?”
  
  So many dates! Guess they were scared it would highlight what a sex magnet he obviously is to females.
  
  Nothing like a man with smouldering looks and the hint of danger about him to get females excited. A real lady killer!
  
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  November 24, 2019 11:33am
  - Notsofast
    
    From stuff
    
    “Of the 11 witness, Justice Moore ruled nine would be allowed to give evidence.
    However, the man’s lawyers appealed Justice Moore’s pre-trial ruling to the Court of Appeal.
    Shortly before the trial, Justice Mark Cooper of the Court of Appeal declined to release the Court’s decision to the media.”
    
    Good to see Mark Cooper being such a diligent judge here after penning “a litany of factual errors”, when taking a year to deny Mark Lundy justice.
    
    The phrase in quotes are not my words but in documents held by the NZ supreme court, citation available.
    
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    November 24, 2019 12:22pm
- Fletch
  
  An interesting comment that someone made the other day is that sex is used by young people nowadays as entertainment. It’s not being restricted to marriage now, or even to a relationship with someone you dearly love, it’s more like a Friday night smoke or drink.
  
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  November 24, 2019 12:15pm
  - Classic Liberal
    
    Nowadays? Certainly was similar in a university town in NZ back in the 80s: flirtation and sex for fun.
    
    There is no getting around it, sex or no sex: with the hormones raging and attractive peers everywhere one is going to fall in love and get heartbroken a few times before settling down later.
    
    Just restricting sex to that ‘person you dearly love’ so early in life won’t protect you from heartbreak. 99% of the time s/he is not ‘the one’ and will break your heart. And vice versa, of course. A few people who loved me (sex or no sex) weren’t loved back and weren’t made happy by me.
    
    So I don’t think sex for entertainment is a new thing, nor should it lead to murder!
    
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    November 24, 2019 1:33pm
  - tas
    
    Sex should only be for procreation. We should ban all contraception (and abortion). And couples should be required to undertake a fertility test before being permitted to marry. /s
    
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    November 24, 2019 4:54pm
- Straight arrow
  
  It seems there maybe outstanding charges that are still to goto trial, or in the process. Hence they do not want to taint jury/jury pool. In this case it is not about protecting his name for his sake, but from that jury pool (so they can be impartial).
  
  Jury pool is less likely to inadvertently be tainted because you do have to take an active step (admitedly small) to find him on internet.
  
  Suppressing evidence like from the other woman is normal in NZ. It is similar to juries/judge not knowing that a person has a record (or been arrested etc) for similar things he has been currently tried for. This means it is about evidence in that particular event. Not agreeing that that is right.
  
  US has slightly different take, in that I believe prosecution can use such evidence, as shows a pattern.
  
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  November 24, 2019 12:51pm
- tavita
  
  According to the Herald, “Calls to expand changes to the way sexual violence victims are treated in court are mounting, fuelled by outrage over the Grace Millane trial”.
  
  Well it sounded as if the accused was a nasty piece of work and the jury made the right decision. But if they were playing choking games and she may have even instigated them, I am firmly of the view that the jury needed to know that.
  
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  November 24, 2019 10:26pm
mikenmildagain

Happy Evolution Day!
Celebrating 160 years since the publication of On the Origin of Species.
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November 24, 2019 8:01am
- John Warren
  
  I’ll allow you this one. I’m feeling benevolent this morning.
  
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  November 24, 2019 8:15am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Perhaps your attitudes are evolving.
    
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    November 24, 2019 8:22am
    - John Warren
      
      Don’t push your luck.
      
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      November 24, 2019 8:40am
    - krazykiwi
      
      Actually, that’s quite good
      
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      November 24, 2019 8:46am
    - nasska
      
      What’s really worrying me is that to date you’ve been awarded twelve downticks.
      
      That indicates that there’s a dozen unmedicated fruitcakes out there who believe in creationism!
      
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      November 24, 2019 10:29am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        There’s really no accounting for taste, is there?
        
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        November 24, 2019 11:56am
      - Classic Liberal
        
        No it doesn’t! It just means many of us are totally sick of Milky’s self-righteous posts.
        
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        November 24, 2019 1:39pm
- Swifty
  
  Now this is one anniversary day that I do intend marking.
  
  My discovering that we are an evolved species is one of the most important events in my life – and one for which I’m very grateful.
  
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  November 24, 2019 8:21am
  - MrTips
    
    Some of us have evolved. Others stay woke or progressive in the slime.
    
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    November 24, 2019 8:38am
- cmm
  
  One of the least read and most misquoted books ever.
  
  I’m the only person that I know that has actually read it, yet just about everyone I discuss evolution with will confidently misquote Darwin.
  
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  November 24, 2019 11:00am
  - oob
    
    I have the Penguin reproduction of the first edition, which is a faithful reproduction of the text of the first edition but with the Historical Sketch and Glossary Darwin himself added subsequently included.
    
    The consensus is that the first edition is the one to read, though I have not read any of the subsequent editions to form my own opinion.
    
    A fascinating aspect of the book is that editions are significantly different, as Darwin modified the text in response to criticisms leveled against it. I don’t know about anyone else but it seems really weird to me that Darwin and his detractors conducted a part of their debate through publishing new editions of books.
    
    Interesting aside: the word evolution doesn’t appear in any of the editions until the 5th or 6th. New Zealand doesn’t either (as far as I can recall) though he visited here for a few days.
    
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    November 24, 2019 1:33pm
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      Perhaps you need to read your version of the 1st edition more carefully.
      
      You will find NZ referenced on at least 8 occasions….
      in Chap IV- Hooker tabulating separate sexes in NZ tree species
      in Chap X – Prof Own & gigantic birds of NZ
      in Chap XI – mentions Flora of NZ, and mention of NZ algae, fish, crustacea
      in Chap XII – mentions frog & bats & gigantic wingless birds of NZ
      
      http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?itemID=F373&viewtype=text&pageseq=1
      
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      November 24, 2019 2:55pm
      - oob
        
        Thank you for the correction. In my defence, It’s been quite a while since I read it.
        
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        November 24, 2019 3:10pm
    - nasska
      
      ……”“I believe we were all glad to leave New Zealand. It is not a pleasant place. Amongst the natives there is absent that charming simplicity which is found at Tahiti; and the greater part of the English are the very refuse of society. Neither is the country itself attractive.” “……
      
      Naturalist Charles Darwin, December 1835.
      
      https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/New_Zealand
      
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      November 24, 2019 3:17pm
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        Oh, Nasska,,,,
        don’t go there..
        
        Best not to discover what Darwin wrote of NZers…
        
        https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/irritable-in-aotearoa-darwin-the-barbarians/
        
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        November 24, 2019 4:13pm
    - Pharmachick
      
      Me too on the Peguin reproduction! It sits on the shelf in my office right next to my leather-bound gilt-edged reproduction of Gray’s Anatomy.
      
      But I think you missed the bit where he mentions NZs giant birds and also their tendency to be wingless.
      
      EDIT TO ADD: my apologies, Maggy was well onto it and more detailed than me 🙂
      
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      November 24, 2019 3:30pm
      - oob
        
        Just for fun I checked. My copy is on the shelf between Iron Fists: Branding the 20th Century Totalitarian State and Machiavelli’s The Art of War.
        
        Stacked on top of it are P.J. O’Rourke’s The CEO of the Sofa, Plato’s Republic, Arthur C Clarke’s 2061 Odyssey 3 and Xenophone’s Retreat by Robin Waterfield.
        
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        November 24, 2019 5:09pm
      - Pharmachick
        
        @oob … yeah, I love classic literature too….
        
        I have Tzun Tsu’s (apologies for the Anglicization) Art of War… Machiavelli’s “The Prince” … Carl Sagan’s “Cosmos” (and had the jaw-dropping experience of enjoying a beer with one of his very last Post Docs who is now a v. senior person in remote sensing/Vulcanology about 5 years ago)… and the Tao of Pooh all on the same shelf.
        
        Read lots, and widely my friends 🙂
        
        Edit to add: And I will admit the last “book” I read was a Stephen King novella called “Gwendy’s button box” … I’m a King superfan 😉
        
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        November 24, 2019 5:59pm
      - oob
        
        @Pharmachick you’re not going to believe this but I knew Sagan personally. The last time I spoke to him he was calling from Ithaca to find out what the Maori word for “Mars” was, for a piece on natural navigation in the Cosmos TV series.
        
        Machiavelli’s Art of War is entirely missable, it’s written in the form of a sort of reduced Socratic dialogue and advocates using Roman army tactics 1,500 years after they were obsolete.
        
        If you were going to read some of his other works the top pick would be Discourses on the First Ten Books of Titus Livy and protip: read the first ten books of Titus Livy beforehand and have them to hand. 🙂
        
        Right now I’m reading Cicero’s On the Good Life and my trashy novel on the go is Gridlinked by Neil Asher.
        
        The latter is an e-book. Physical books are wonderful to own (I’m jealous of your leatherbound Gray’s and I’ve been eyeing up a 25th Edition Erskine May) but in contrast, the convenience of an e-book library with thousands of titles in the palm of one’s hand is hard to pass up.
        
        And to bring the conversation almost fullcircle back to Darwin, if you enjoyed Cosmos are you familiar with the British equivalent? Jacob Brownoski’s The Ascent of Man book and TV series is also very good.
        
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        November 24, 2019 6:34pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        My most treasured books are The Art of the Deal, The Amityville Horror, Atlas Shrugged, and Hairy Maclary from Donaldson’s Dairy.
        
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        November 24, 2019 6:37pm
      - Pharmachick
        
        @oob.., I think I do believe you… my Grandfather gave me Cosmos for my 10th birthday… it changed my life. Grandad was a scouser from Liverpool, wrong side of the Mersey: he was Everton. Grandma, matriarch, was a Gerrard. Both of them immigrated to NZ in the 1950s … it took to my generation to make good.
        
        The guy I met runs a rocket lab in America. He’s the boss of my friends husband.
        
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        November 24, 2019 8:36pm
- atomic drop
  
  Yes Evolution is the enemy of Leftists and their “humans are balls of play-doh you can social engineer or gulag into whatever” ideology.
  
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  November 24, 2019 11:36am
- Fletch
  
  Ahh yes, the theory of evolution. And it’s still only a theory. Interestingly, the Church doesn’t really care as such whether we evolved from whatever, only that the soul does not and is directly given by God.
  
  Pope Pius XII declared that “the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God” (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36)
  
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  November 24, 2019 12:23pm
  - Pharmachick
    
    Now THAT was worth the price of admission. How interesting. Thank you.
    
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    November 24, 2019 3:40pm
  - Michael
    
    I think Science has obliterated Evolution in too many ways/realms.
    The only people who believe it are no goddes and that’s just another religion.
    I don’t bother getting in to it too much, but the science isn’t settled it is just getting better for faithful people.
    
    https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/11/the_biochemistry_challenge_to_darwin_.html
    
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    November 24, 2019 5:52pm
    - Swifty
      
      Not accepting the evidence that there is a thing called a god is now called a ‘religion’?
      
      Total horseshit Michael. You can do better than that.
      
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      November 24, 2019 7:11pm
  - Swifty
    
    Fletch, ever wondered why people refer to The Theory of Gravity? Or Germ Theory?
    
    Now please climb up on your roof and jump off (please don’t hurt yourself) – and come back and tell us that gravity ‘is just a theory’.
    
    🙂
    
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    November 24, 2019 7:14pm
    - Swifty
      
      Oh, and I should add this:
      
      The meaning of the term scientific theory (often contracted to theory for brevity) as used in the disciplines of science is significantly different from the common vernacular usage of theory.[4][Note 1] In everyday speech, theory can imply an explanation that represents an unsubstantiated and speculative guess,[4] whereas in science it describes an explanation that has been tested and widely accepted as valid. These different usages are comparable to the opposing usages of prediction in science versus common speech, where it denotes a mere hope.
      
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
      
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      November 24, 2019 7:15pm
Tony Stuart

You have to applaud the black sense of humour by whoever dobbed New Zealand First in. All the incriminating paperwork was placed in a wine box, and left for a journalist!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/117650875/a-wine-box-a-deep-throat-and-a-dumpster–the-trail-that-led-to-the-nz-first-donations-scandal
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November 24, 2019 8:03am
- sooty
  
  It’s whine box, not wine box!
  
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  November 24, 2019 8:17am
- Tricati
  
  isn’t it awesome – the irony made my day
  
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  November 24, 2019 8:22am
  - John Warren
    
    I hope it ripped Winston’s boxer shorts right up to the wazoo.
    
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    November 24, 2019 8:42am
    - Colville
      
      Its going to be death by a thousand cuts.
      Slow and excruciating and great to see.
      
      When will Cindy stop hugging the corpse?
      
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      November 24, 2019 9:17am
      - Tony Stuart
        
        Or will the BFD, given Cam Slater’s repeated warnings against corpse-hugging?
        
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        November 24, 2019 10:18am
- MrTips
  
  The big item in that story is not the evidence, but the change in attitude of ex-NZFers. They’ve had enough – Winston and Brian are political dead men walking. LOL.
  
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  November 24, 2019 8:41am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    Indeed MrTips. In the past, people crawled over broken glass to support Peters, but that’s not happening any more. His spell over his party members has broken, and that is the first step to members taking control of the party. This is not going to end well for Peters.
    
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    November 24, 2019 10:20am
- chaos
  
  Love it, but when someone releases the dirt on jones will it be in a porn video?
  
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  November 24, 2019 8:52am
- Colville
  
  How many pages fit in a wine box?
  At least 1000 probably closer to 2000.
  Bank statements, invoices, letters , receipts.
  that is a LOT of info for a reporter to leak out over the next few months.
  
  Bwahahahahahaha couldnt happen to a nicer bunch of krunts.
  
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  November 24, 2019 11:21am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    Well Colville, a standard box of photocopy paper contains 5 reams of 500 sheets each, so there’s 2500 pieces. And a wine box would be larger!
    
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    November 24, 2019 1:43pm
- Rich Prick
  
  Left by a dumpster full with used nappies. How symbolic.
  
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  November 24, 2019 11:33am
  - Colville
    
    they couldnt find a dumpster full of whiskey bottles?
    
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    November 24, 2019 1:03pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

1 month until Christmas Eve
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November 24, 2019 8:04am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Still time to get your letter off to Santa.
  
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  November 24, 2019 8:11am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Some adults believe in Santa, some adults believe lefties don’t tell lies ……
    
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    November 24, 2019 9:09am
Scott

Why do we need religion? Why do we need faith? Can’t we just be liberal and do what we want as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else?

My contention this Sunday morning is that we can only be a free people by being a religious people. That modern man with his “I should have the right to do what I like as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else” is incapable of sustaining any decent kind of civilisation,any real sense of community.

Previously our western Christian civilisation was sustained by the golden rule “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” and the key sayings of Jesus, most notably “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength and mind, and love your neighbour as yourself”.

That produced a people capable of moral restraint and sacrifice for the good of others. A people capable of civilised behavior in other words.

One small example to illustrate where we are at now. When I was young we had fireworks once a year on Guy Fawkes night. Me and my siblings and my parents let off crackers and sky rockets in our backyard. Everybody did this and then it was over. We’d had our fun till the same time next year.

Today we have had fireworks every Saturday night for the last month in our neighbourhood, bang and crash. Our cat is terrified. The neighbour has to get in her St Bernard and try to calm him down. It’s annoying for those not involved.

Now our neighbour who is doing this would probably say it’s not hurting anyone else. But actually it’s annoying and loud and vexatious. We have to forebear for people who cannot restrain themselves to one night a year, Guy Fawkes night.

So I’m moving to be in favour of banning fireworks. It’s a shame. But without restraint fireworks becomes very annoying for all those people who are not letting them off but have to suffer the loud bangs and crashes and distressed pets.

It’s a small example. But it illustrates why “it’s not hurting you” is not enough. Liberalism is not enough. Freedom requires moral restraint. Only a moral and religious people are capable of sustaining a free and decent civilisation,of living in real community with their neighbour.
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November 24, 2019 8:06am
- Swifty
  
  One of the more contemptible arguments put across by religious apologists – that we are a species incapable of morality without either scripture or the fear of punishment/promise of a reward from a supposed supernatural being.
  
  That without religion we’d all be screwing in the streets.
  
  This conveniently overlooks the fact that what we understand as morality has been a feature of human lives since our evolution. We have been performing countless moral acts and for millennia; well before the arrival of Abrahamic religions. It is innate.
  
  I’d go further though in saying that we would never have evolved and developed in the way that we have without our innate morality. It’s a key reason we’ve got to where we’ve got because, quite simply, we benefit from being good to the people around us.
  
  There’s also an approximate 70% chance that Scott’s fireworks pest is a god-believer.
  
  Where does that now leave us?
  
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  November 24, 2019 8:38am
  - SGA
    
    This conveniently overlooks the fact that what we understand as morality has been a feature of human lives since our evolution. We have been performing countless moral acts and for millennia; well before the arrival of Abrahamic religions. It is innate.
    
    Scott’s a young earth creationist, so you are probably on a hiding to nothing there. 🙂
    
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    November 24, 2019 11:02am
    - Swifty
      
      Yes, if you choose to overlook the wealth of evidence gathered by us over centuries and instead ‘believe’ the world was ‘magicked’ into being just a few thousand years ago and purely because a few bronze-aged goat herders said so – well there’s not much hope then is there.
      
      After all, you can’t reason somebody out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into in the first place.
      
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      November 24, 2019 12:46pm
- Kiwi Dave
  
  If fireworks are causing neighbours and their pets distress, then that is not a good illustration of your case.
  
  I agree that freedom requires moral restraint but disagree that moral restraint requires religion.
  
  Modern secular moral philosophy often appeals to the principle of reciprocity, and this principle is found in many societies with and without competing gods, some of whom must be false.
  
  Two of the more famous moral principles in the Bible are based not on religion but on social reciprocity.
  
  In the OT, An eye for a eye deters bad behaviour by way of threatened retaliation, but doesn’t require religion.
  
  In the NT the golden rule (found also in other societies, as well as its negative version, ‘Don’t to do others what you don’t want done to you’) doesn’t require religion, merely recognition that productive social living depends on reciprocal decency. Likewise, the parable of the Good Samaritan is a lesson, among other things, in reciprocity.
  
  2500 years ago, Confucius argued for a society-wide morality using family harmony and mutual obligations as the basis of morality.
  
  Or you could go the evolutionary empathy route suggested by Swifty.
  
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  November 24, 2019 10:08am
  - Swifty
    
    Excellently put Kiwi Dave.
    
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    November 24, 2019 10:37am
- Ed Snack
  
  Funnily enough, many years ago when I was a lad, our dogs went crazy over Guy Fawkes night – they though the bangers were gunshots and they just loved shooting. Probably because I used to take them possum hunting and they were extremely keen participants, you only had to get the gun out and they’d get excited. So Guy Fawkes for them was almost over-stimulation, but they were really keen to participate !
  
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  November 24, 2019 10:24am
- fisho
  
  Because there’s a certain, fairly significant, portion of the population who need to be told how to think and behave. They won’t admit it, but that’s what they yearn and can’t operate without.
  So there’s a new religion in town. The folk who can’t bring themselves to reconcile themselves against traditional religions are hitching their carts to the cult of warmism. Different god, same blind faith in those telling the story and lack of desire to at least investigate other sides of the story.
  On track to knock Christianity and Islamism off their respective perches.
  
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  November 24, 2019 11:39am
- Michael
  
  Scott
  https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/11/the_biochemistry_challenge_to_darwin_.html
  
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  November 24, 2019 5:53pm
- IC5000
  
  > Only a moral and religious people are capable of sustaining a free and decent civilisation,of living in real community with their neighbour
  
  No doubt this is one of the attractions of going to Syria and living in the Islamic State.
  
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  November 24, 2019 6:03pm
stephieboy

A recent highlight on RNZ was Jesse Mulligan’s interview with former National Finance Minister Steven Joyce who discusses one of the main reasons he had to leave politics was to devote more time to his Autistic son. He discusses Autism and how it has affected his family and himself. Also some the latest researches into this at times baffling developmental disorder.

A seminar tomorrow evening ( this Monday )at the Auckland Medical school where “Minds for Minds” present some of those researches and endeavours to map the genetic structure of Autism ( ASD Autistic spectrum disorder ) and understand its causes.

A very gallant father along with his wife and family. Not forgetting his son

Steven Joyce on autism

From Afternoons with Jesse Mulligan, 1:18 pm on 21 November 2019

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018723453/steven-joyce-on-autism

As you will see Steven Joyce has become Patron of” Minds for Minds”( RNZ provide the link) and seminar details). Another worthy cause deserving of our support!.
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November 24, 2019 8:16am
- Tony Stuart
  
  A rare uptick from me stephie. You only had to see how emotional Joyce got during his Valedictory when talking about his son, who has no verbal communication because of his autism, to understand how difficult it must be to deal with.
  
  Kudos to Joyce for becoming the Patron of Minds for Minds, and using his family’s experience to benefit others similarly afflicted.
  
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  November 24, 2019 8:29am
  - James Stephenson
    
    Fortunately he’s still found time to dispense some much-needed common sense on the subject of moving Auckland’s port to Whangarei.
    
    I miss his (and Bill’s) basic competence so much.
    
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    November 24, 2019 10:14am
    - Paulus Gnome
      
      Stephen Joyce; best mayor Auckland never had.
      
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      November 24, 2019 12:15pm
- Rodney Randall
  
  Will they be covering the not too distantly related T.D.S. disorder on Monday night as well?
  
  Stephanie for Patron Saint of Lost Minds!
  
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  November 24, 2019 9:20am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    Oh, be nice for once Rodney. This is the first time I’ve ever seen a stephie post highlighted in yellow, not pink, or completely hidden from view.
    
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    November 24, 2019 10:22am
- cmm
  
  uptick stepphie
  
  Thanks for that.
  
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  November 24, 2019 11:03am
oldpark

After the full throated attack by Winston Peters from Japan on NZs Main Stream Media and anyone who cared to listen or read. Peters returns to NZ today rumour is MSM and truthsayers are quivering and shaking in their shoes. The return of NZs well known political bully Peters over 40 years and his vitriol and vehement attacks and verbal assaults on the Main Stream Media for allegedly exposing his caper and telling the truth.
Todays attack on the mentioned news outlets and whoever will make the saga of “High Noon” an also ran . Go Peters your cause is a failure. Time is up.
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November 24, 2019 8:23am
- Justitia
  
  According to an item in yesterday’s BFD, names of journalists and bloggers are being taken for possible legal action. The threat of lawsuits, already deployed against Nick Smith MP, hangs heavily in the air. Nice little country you got there….
  
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  November 24, 2019 8:48am
  - peterwn
    
    He tried to take on Tim Murphy and a few others and that fell flat on its face. Cam Slater claimed at the time Tim was in big trouble.
    It is misleading to say he has threatened to sue Nick Smith. Nick would have to repeat the thing outside the House first. Regardless of circumstances Nick will not wish a legal tangle with someone who seems to be very well resourced from goodness knows where.
    
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    November 24, 2019 9:48am
    - In Vino Veritas
      
      peter, resourced from a life of feeding at the taxpayer trough.
      
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      November 24, 2019 10:44am
      - peterwn
        
        Also think Kermadecs and no cameras on fishing boats and ………
        
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        November 24, 2019 11:46am
      - sooty
        
        Pretty horses! They are there for a good reason!
        
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        November 24, 2019 12:10pm
  - Ruahine
    
    A $30 million dollar lawsuit. Yeh, Brian. That ought to keep them quiet for a while.
    
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    November 24, 2019 10:16am
RiP NZ

Nice to see some respect for Joyce, a huge loss for governance in NZ.
I take it you didn’t cheer on the dildo incident
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November 24, 2019 8:30am
- stephieboy
  
  Like Steven Joyce appeared to do I took ot with a grain of salt.and moved on. I would agree an especially effective Minister and like Chris Parksinson always admired him!
  
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  November 24, 2019 8:59am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    I presume you mean Chris Finlayson.
    
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    November 24, 2019 10:23am
    - toby1845
      
      Or Winston Parkinson? Leader of NZ First?
      
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      November 24, 2019 5:14pm
    - stephieboy
      
      Ooops your right.Chris Finlayson , outstanding AG and TOW negotiator. !
      
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      November 24, 2019 10:08pm
SGA

@Scott

Previously our western Christian civilisation was sustained by the golden rule “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”

But, as you probably know, it’s good to remember that the golden rule isn’t a uniquely Christian idea.
The Eloquent Peasant, which dates to the Egyptian Middle Kingdom (c. 2040–1650 BC): “Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do.”
“Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing.” – Thales (c. 624 BC – c. 546 BC)
“What you do not want to happen to you, do not do it yourself either. ” – Sextus the Pythagorean. (The oldest extant reference to Sextus is by Origen in the third century of the common era.)
“Do not do to others that which angers you when they do it to you.” – Isocrates (436–338 BC)
The Pahlavi Texts of Zoroastrianism (c. 300 BC–1000 AD) were an early source for the Golden Rule: “That nature alone is good which refrains from doing to another whatsoever is not good for itself.”
Zi gong (a disciple of Confucius) asked: “Is there any one word that could guide a person throughout life?”
The Master replied: “How about ‘shu’ [reciprocity]: never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself?”
–Confucius, Analects XV.24
There are many other examples you can look at here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
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November 24, 2019 8:31am
- Swifty
  
  Thanks SGA.
  
  It’s downright evil the way some religious folk have come along relatively recently saying that before (only their) religion we were just animals scratching with sticks in the mud or that without their religion there would we return.
  
  It’s deceitful.
  
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  November 24, 2019 10:31am
  - Classic Liberal
    
    If we were whining SJWs in fact we would say it’s downright offensive when religious people claim we’re immoral without their religion.
    
    And then we’d try and sue them for hate speech.
    
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    November 24, 2019 1:56pm
- Random Punter
  
  “Do not do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Their tastes may be different.” (George Bernard Shaw)
  
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  November 24, 2019 10:52am
- Sacha
  
  do-as-you-would-be-done-by was a common instruction in our family –
  
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  November 24, 2019 11:24am
curry4me

The BBC is pro-Remain. Audiences at ‘debates’ are pro Labour. ‘Fact checkers’ give non Tories an easyride.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-6aIBsyaKg
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November 24, 2019 8:33am
- atomic drop
  
  Yep, Globalist elite control all channels, but they are still losing!
  
  The good English stock exercised their democratic right to stop Globalism destroying their civilisation, replaced with mega malls teeming with stab happy 3rd worlders and fat tattooed BDSM white female back packer types shopping for an iphone with Tinder preinstalled – on which she will be busy “still finding herself”.
  
  Brexit will not be allowed to happen.
  
  But don’t get down, its all over for Globalism, just keep watching the interest rate count down to Armageddon.
  
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  November 24, 2019 11:48am
  - Classic Liberal
    
    Who do you vote for AD? Looks like you can’t possibly approve of any party.
    
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    November 24, 2019 2:05pm
curry4me

Soros is linked to the ‘whistleblower saga’. He had access to Obama era foreign policy officials. There were ties between Soros and Burisma through the Atlantic Council.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4swMCLgCwxs
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November 24, 2019 8:35am
- stephieboy
  
  “There were ties between Soros and Burisma through the Atlantic Council.”
  
  What ties precisely?
  
  Otherwise the usual alt-right drivel,
  
  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCsiAKRKcgzA_372WbXNBaw
  
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  November 24, 2019 9:10am
  - Ed Snack
    
    Well, Soros foundations supply very large sums of money to run the AC, that sort of link is fairly convincing to most.
    
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    November 24, 2019 10:27am
- All_on_Red
  
  Recent witness Fiona Hill worked for Soros in the past
  She knows Ciaramella quite well too
  
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  November 24, 2019 9:39am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Smearing the witnesses is about all the Trumpistas have left. Although they can still be expected to rave on about Butt Hunter, Ben Ghazi and the Buttery Males.
    
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    November 24, 2019 10:45am
KevO'Brien

Climate change prediction involve maths—
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/11/23/how-much-sun-could-a-sunshine-shine/

Eschenbach is an amazing researcher.
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November 24, 2019 8:43am
- stephieboy
  
  Willis Eschenbach
  Credentials
  
  California Massage Certificate, Aames School of Massage, Oakland, CA. (1974).
  B.A., Psychology, Sonoma State University, Rohnert Park, CA. (1975).
  
  https://www.desmogblog.com/willis-eschenbach
  
  LOL
  
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  November 24, 2019 9:13am
  - Swifty
    
    Fallacious argument from authority.
    
    I thought you were against that sort of thing, as you posted just recently.
    
    You’re not a stinking hypocrite are you Stiffy?
    
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    November 24, 2019 10:36am
    - All_on_Red
      
      Why yes, yes he is.
      
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      November 24, 2019 5:38pm
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Yeah, but so what?
    
    If you had read at KevO’Brien’s link , you will see that Eschenbach is drawing attention to the following research paper:
    
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269468154_The_energy_balance_over_land_and_oceans_An_assessment_based_on_direct_observations_and_CMIP5_climate_models
    
    And after repeating what the paper shows…Eschenbach concludes:
    
    I leave it to the reader to consider and discuss the implications of all of that. One thing is obvious. Since they can all hindcast quite well, this means that they must have counteracting errors that are canceling each other out.
    
    So, a BA psychology major is capable of reading and understanding a paper that shows differences between models and real-world observations…
    
    Colour me surprised.
    
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    November 24, 2019 11:24am
    - KevO'Brien
      
      I am surprised too. I didn’t know Willis Eschanbach had those soc. sci. quals. He demonstrates from time to time extraordinary maths skills.
      Further he is a real amateur scientist. He has published work on the self regulation of the tropical regions temperatures over a century. The hotter it gets during the day the greater the cooling cloud formations. I have seen these too. W.
      E. is always worth reading.
      
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      November 24, 2019 4:41pm
    - IC5000
      
      > So, a BA psychology major is capable of reading and understanding a paper that shows differences between models and real-world observations…
      
      So now someone with what Kiwbloggers have called a Mickey Mouse degree is now an authority simply because they are a climate change denier.
      
      Colour me surprised.
      
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      November 24, 2019 8:43pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    His work speaks for itself. Can you do an analysis of a dataset using R?
    
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    November 24, 2019 11:35am
    - Pharmachick
      
      Yes
      
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      November 24, 2019 2:45pm
      - Pharmachick
        
        @KevO’Brien … I wish more climate scientists could as well.
        
        Another thing that’s weird – R has repositories all over the world (well thats a bit of a misnomer as they’re in the cloud, but you know what I mean), where you can place your strings for others to use/modify to their purposes. They are super useful for biomedical modeling as we often use the same fundamental equations or processes, but bend them to the specific research Q. The climate modelers are not big representatives of R string depositors. Its entirely possible that they only use bespoke model programs and/or R hasn’t penetrated and/or I’m just ignorant of climate strings (and many more and/ors) but I still find it a bit weird that they don’t adopt a more public facing attitude to their data, models and modeling, most particularly with massive public interest and investment in the current concepts around climate change etc.
        
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        November 24, 2019 3:37pm
Happychappy

NZQA accused of “bainwashing” over Anti ‘ farmer’s ‘ questions in English exam .
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/11/nzqa-accused-of-brainwashing-over-anti-farmer-question-in-english-exam.html
Where was Winston Firsts comments over this when n Todd Muller, Amy Adam’s and Elliot Ikilei were suggesting farmers enough on their plates without this sort of bashing and indoctrination of High School Students.
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November 24, 2019 9:00am
- Classic Liberal
  
  On the other hand schools should be teaching kids how to detect, analyse and criticise rhetorical methods used to brainwash people.
  
  I hope that if someone disagreed with the article’s premises they could get a top mark if they pointed out how biased the writer’s views are and what rhetorical tricks were used.
  
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  November 24, 2019 2:12pm
- toby1845
  
  Interesting that neither Radio NZ nor Newshub (when it reprinted the original article) pointed out that the schoolboy mentioned (Mackey) is a Labour Youth activist, and the he sat in the last ‘Youth Parliament’ (sic).
  
  A simple check of his Facebook page would have revealed that.
  
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  November 24, 2019 5:21pm
krazykiwi

I recommend the site Quillette to KB’ers. It contains regularly posted, thoughtful essays from centre left, centre right, and libertarian authors.

This essay Why UBI Ought to Appeal to Conservatives is on a topic I’d usually dismiss as a bit of rabid, left-leaning socialism. Here, though, the author suggests that such a programme goes to the heart of promoting small government, and getting the central planners and bureaucrats out of recipients’ lives by putting resources directly into their hands. At face value this would be a good thing.

What the author doesn’t delve into, and this is why I categorically rule out UBI, is that any implementation would have to come accompanied with a permanent abandonment of expensive, centrally planned social services (possible, but unlikely), together with society being happy to leave to their own misery those who squander their UBI and end up destitute (a certainty, and a highly unlikely response). Add to these factors the tendency for politicians to raid the wealthy in order to sure up support from various minorities and UBI is non-starter, however noble its proposers imagine it being.

Worth a read.
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November 24, 2019 9:01am
- artemisia
  
  UBI – those for whom it works well already (eg universal super in NZ, or those in work) will be OK. But as you say, social services would still be needed to provide for some, and our experience here indicates that ‘some’ would turn into a lot, especially if free money is involved. Not just social workers at the door.
  
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  November 24, 2019 9:58am
- Happychappy
  
  Grant Robertson is a big fan of UBI and it was only the fact they thought that if they took it to the electorate they would be in a worse position than they were already in, but they didn’t count on Winston’s help on achieving the Treasury Benches.
  
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  November 24, 2019 11:22am
- Classic Liberal
  
  Seriously? I read the article but really should have stopped at “For the sake of argument, let’s set aside the problem of paying for [Andrew Yang’s UBI]”.
  
  No, let’s not set that rather essential point aside.
  
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  November 24, 2019 2:20pm
- Classic Liberal
  
  Thanks for the Quillette link, the article about Norwegian crime stats is interesting. https://quillette.com/2019/11/21/fearful-norwegians-wonder-are-swedish-conditions-coming-to-the-streets-of-oslo/
  
  “Immigrants from certain backgrounds—particularly Palestinians, Iraqis and Afghanis—were many times more likely to commit violent crimes than other Norwegians (including other immigrant groups). In 65 out of 80 crime categories, non-Norwegians were over-represented. The largest discrepancy was in regard to domestic violence: Immigrants from non-Western countries were found to be eight times more likely to be charged for such crimes. ”
  
  The article fails to mention one obvious reason for this: sura 4:34 that *commands* men to beat wives from whom they ‘fear disobedience’.
  
  This is the joy of multiculturalism in Europe now: FGM and wife-beating and beating up unbelievers.
  
  Until NZ is prepared to talk about these ideological islamist problems without yelling ‘racist’, we can expect to go down the same path.
  
  But of course after ChCh we will forever be guilty and wrong and can’t even hint that there are frighteningly misogynist aspects to islam.
  
  Soon there will be hate laws preventing people from even pointing it out.
  
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  November 24, 2019 2:37pm
  - Pharmachick
    
    Ahem, at the risk of being uncouth… might I point out that the atrocity in ChCh was allegedly perpetrated by an AUSTRALIAN who was a recent import. Ever since I found that out, a small part of me has held on to the fact that Kiwis don’t do this on this scale (and yeah, I know we’re not without our Aramoana’s).
    
    As it fits the current person, hesitate to use “immigrant” in its classical sense when describing the alleged perpetrator because of the open border between Australia and NZ. As a person that is has been a genuine skills-based immigrant to two countries (USA, 13 years, green card. Now Canada, 6 years and counting, permanent resident thinking of asking for citizenship), immigration [even for refugees] is a lot more arduous and paperwork-ed. It also involves displacement and cultural learning of your new home. Kiwis and Aussies popping across the ditch don’t have those hurdles.
    
    Also, just a cheeky Q – how long was the alleged perpetrator in NZ before being allowed a military grade gun license? I was on the shooting team in high school (prone, 22s) so had to have a family and b/grns check at 16 for a rifle. Just asking for a friend. //s
    
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    November 24, 2019 3:53pm
    - Michael
      
      Pharmachick
      5 weeks.
      no job.
      no spouce.
      no property.
      The 2 referees were internet friends.
      
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      November 24, 2019 6:03pm
Yvette

Which should have priority – enforcing name suppression rules or preventing the trashing of victims in court cases?

Grace Millane’s killer will not be sentenced until February. His identity continues to be protected, while the reputation of his victim – a young woman who had the misfortune to meet a killer on the eve of her 22nd birthday – has been trashed around the world. No one who has followed the case could be unaware of the way in which her supposed sexual history has been laid bare in the courtroom, including claims … that she was not there to challenge. [1]

And it is that process of trashing sexual crime victims that Andrew Little could perhaps pursue with some of the vigour he is expending in his now obvious vendetta against Google, as the Newshub headline indicates – “Incredibly disappointing”: Little calls out Google for latest Millane suppression breaches [2]

And perhaps Ardern could help Little focus on this court conducted trashing of sex assault victims, Grace Millane being so sadly the extreme case of a fatal assault.

According to media reports, the Labour Party staffer sexual assault, of which Jacinda Ardern says “We handled this very, very badly as a party …”, the Spinoff article records the victim, “Sarah” … didn’t want to go to the police. She knew people who had been through the process and had told her how difficult it was, she said. “I thought about the amount of people who come forward and then the number who actually get convictions, and it just felt like it was going to be really hard.” [3]
It does not seem Ardern’s Labour Party process is much better
And we of course still await the now quite overdue Dew review into this matter.

But Little seems to be concentrating on Google.

For Google to block the name by artificial intelligence, whole articles published overseas would be geo-blocked.
Instead it appears a notification and complaint system is being used.
Hence, at the foot of some Google result pages you can now find –
In response to a legal request submitted to Google, we have removed 2 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read more about the request at LumenDatabase.org.

And in relation to initial December 2018 suppression breaches … Google also has a general webform in place where people can submit Court Orders, including suppression orders … Google received the order from Defence Counsel four days after it was made and after the Trends email had been sent. Once Google received the order it took immediate action to prevent any recurrence. [4]

Google will remove material but they seem to require notifying that it exists and offends.
Little does not seem to have publicised that.

Instead we are told – Internet behemoth Google also breached the order when it named the accused in its “What’s trending in New Zealand” mass email to New Zealand subscribers.
Google has explained in a statement that the material included in its Google Trends emails is compiled automatically by software.
The email also said there had been more than 100,000 searches on its search engine of the man’s name.

But in an email from Google LLC (Google) to Hon Andrew Little, Minister of Justice, re: Google Trends Emails, copy to Prime Minister by email, Ross Young wrote –
… we advised that fewer than 200 New Zealand subscribers had received an email from Google Trends, which included links to other media reports … [4]

So the Google email told less than one five-hundredth of the number who checked the Internet for themselves.
Andrew Little said “Google has been reckless, and I won’t let them off the hook” and he still seems obsessed.

Yet public opinion may tell Little, and Ardern, where real concern is felt – enforcing name suppression rules or preventing the trashing of victims in court cases, when cases actually reach court.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/22/rough-sex-defence-indefensible-grace-millane-murder
[2] https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/11/grace-millane-andrew-little-calls-out-google-for-latest-suppression-breaches.html
[3] https://thespinoff.co.nz/unsponsored/09-09-2019/a-labour-volunteer-alleged-violent-sexual-assault-by-a-senior-staffer-this-is-her-story/
[4] https://www.beehive.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2019-07/190705-Google.pdf
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November 24, 2019 9:03am
- G152
  
  Obviously the rabid unionist hasn’t been told about the other search engines and the dark web..
  Not fit for purpose
  
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  November 24, 2019 9:44am
- Justitia
  
  Careful how you go there Yvette. The murderer is now a “man in care”. The tone of your comment disrespects his mana.
  
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  November 24, 2019 11:22am
Morrissey

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Jim Mora expresses astonishment about Hong Kong, but is silent re Gaza massacres
RNZ National, Sunday 24 November 2019, 8:45 a.m.

Jim Mora, the man who laughs at the suffering of political prisoners*, has finally developed a conscience. Or has he? ……

JIM MORA: Anthony Dapiran is a Hong Kong-based writer and lawyer and the author of City of Protest: A Recent History of Dissent in Hong Kong, and the upcoming City on Fire: The Fight for Hong Kong. He joins me now. The police are arresting school children. REALLY?

ANTHONY DAPIRAN: Yes, they are.

MORA: REALLY? Has it come to this? ….

…..ad nauseam…..

I sent the host the following email….

You express astonishment about Hong Kong, but are silent re Gaza massacres.

Dear Jim,

You seem astonished, even perturbed, at the authorities in Hong Kong arresting schoolchildren—“Has it come to this?” you asked Anthony Dapiran. Of course, compared to the mass shootings and maimings inflicted by Israeli snipers on protestors in Gaza, the Hong Kong authorities have been the model of restraint and care. I have never heard you express a word of incredulity or concern at the shooting of thousands of Palestinian schoolchildren, old people, disabled people, doctors, nurses, ambulance people, and journalists.

Yours sincerely,

Morrissey Breen
Northcote Point

* https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/01/graham-bell-continues-to-run-amok-on.html

https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/01/an-unusually-inane-and-depraved-edition.html
0 52
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November 24, 2019 9:10am
- krazykiwi
  
  @mods — Blatant link whoring. Worthy of a strike in my view.
  
  [Mod – thanks krazykiwi, DPF is reasonably tolerant towards link-whoring, but only on the General Debate thread. There have been instances lately where repetitive link-whoring (Hugh and stephieboy are examples) has been either heavily edited or completely deleted.]
  
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  November 24, 2019 9:16am
  - Swifty
    
    Thanks Mod.
    
    10 0
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    November 24, 2019 10:33am
  - Morrissey
    
    Thanks, Mr (or Ms) Moderator. Of course, what the more bewildered and angry souls around here wrongly call “link whoring” is actually nothing more than hyperlinking. Maybe they’ve heard of it?
    
    [Mod – don’t push your luck Morrissey. Hyperlinking is linking to content at another website. Link-whoring is linking to your own website, to try and boost traffic. If you want, I’m happy to revisit my original decision]
    
    0 17
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    November 24, 2019 12:56pm
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  Whoring to your own lonely site again Morris.
  Reported.
  
  31 2
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  November 24, 2019 9:19am
  - Morrissey
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    And read, by you, as well as dozens of others so far in just a few minutes, Cap’n. Thanks for your support.
    
    2 34
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    November 24, 2019 9:24am
    - Captain Mainwaring
      
      You are mistaken, idiot. I didn’t click on the links so I haven’t read it.
      
      21 2
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      November 24, 2019 10:18am
      - rightoverlabour
        
        Saw the poster, didn’t read. Simple. Just want to thank the army of downtickers that are looking after my scroll wheel.
        
        19 0
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        November 24, 2019 11:18am
      - Morrissey
        
        I didn’t click on the links….
        
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBQvt-t6NcA
        
        0 16
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        November 24, 2019 12:58pm
- harvey wilson
  
  Morrisey me old mucker!! Updated your site to include the newest Labour party gropers to your list?
  
  Post the link if you have.
  
  34 0
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  November 24, 2019 9:35am
  - Swifty
    
    I also note Morrissey never includes as Gropers the legion of his fellow NZ teachers kicked out of the trade for perverted conduct, often with pupils under their charge.
    
    22 0
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    November 24, 2019 11:18am
    - stigie
      
      “How dare you”
      
      15 0
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      November 24, 2019 12:00pm
- srylands
  
  Hong Kong residents are fighting against despots having been abandoned by the UK.
  
  Gaza residents are terrorists firing rockets at Israel, a beacon of freedom surrounded by despots intent on its destruction.
  
  So there is that difference ?
  
  13 1
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  November 24, 2019 10:56am
  - peterwn
    
    There was no option in 1997. Peoples Republic would have turned off the water tap leaving HK desperately short of water. HK people should have built a huge nuke powered desalination plant prior to 1997.
    
    2 0
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    November 24, 2019 5:27pm
krazykiwi

@mods — Blatant link whoring. Worthy of a strike in my view.
18 1
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November 24, 2019 9:15am
KH

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
The Israelis murder people all the time. But that’s OK we are told.
2 42
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November 24, 2019 9:26am
harvey wilson

Reviewer slams the movie about Carrol Shelby because people weren’t woke enough in the 1960s, will now make a point of seeing this movie.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/117572954/ford-v-ferrari-depicts-a-generation-of-car-guys-best-left-behind
14 1
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November 24, 2019 9:37am
- Colville
  
  yeah amazingly few crippled Muslim transsexual race car drivers in the 60’s.
  
  15 1
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  November 24, 2019 11:23am
  - Paulus Gnome
    
    Maori ‘crippled Muslim transsexual race car drivers in the 60’s’, with a lisp.
    
    Not to mention maori in a sentence is a te tirti breach and is unacceptable in todays woke Aotearoan society. Did you miss that memo?
    
    Happy to help you there.
    
    8 1
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    November 24, 2019 12:37pm
peterwn

JLR claimed ‘repercussions’ for National MP’s and candidates who did not meet fundraising targets. So what is new? It should be plain obvious to anyone.
It is just not fundraising – it is door knocking, signing up members, being active in the electorate or ‘buddy’ electorate etc etc. It is not so much ‘repercussions’ but rewards for putting in the hard work.
For example a candidate in 2014 put in the real hard work and when the list placings were announced he was a virtually guaranteed a seat in the House. He kept working hard to get National’s list vote as high as possible. He will be unlucky if not made a Minister in 2020.
27 0
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November 24, 2019 9:56am
- Classic Liberal
  
  Proves that JLR was in the wrong party. National wants people to work hard and reap the rewards.
  
  Liebore wants people to laze around and then whine and whinge about their own victim-hood to reap the rewards from taxpayers.
  
  8 0
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  November 24, 2019 2:44pm
Maggie Pie

Have you ever noticed that the size of a person’s nostrils is directly related
to the size of their fingers?
10 1
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November 24, 2019 10:15am
Ruahine

Jamie-Lee Ross. Is he the same Mr Ross who secretly records his colleagues conversations and then uses those secretly recorded conversations against them.
31 0
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November 24, 2019 10:39am
- Tall Man
  
  Nope, he’s the one that records private conversations and then uses them against himself.
  
  4 1
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  November 24, 2019 4:20pm
Tauhei Notts

Travellers’ tales can be boring but I thought some of you would appreciate this. I had a few beers with a mate just back from attending a big big farm machinery and implements fair in Hanover, Germany.
I had read much about the behaviour of Islamic refugees in the likes of Cologne, Munich and Berlin. What had he heard of that whilst in Germany.
The reply was surprising. Nothing. But what really concerned the Krauts he had spoken with were the actions of that country’s Green Party, which is making farming a really difficult industry to be in. Hence the enormous farm tractor protests in Hamburg and other cities.
Then I thought that the problems with refugees had been overstated.
9 2
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November 24, 2019 11:16am
- atomic drop
  
  Germany is in communication lock down. You can do prison time for an unflattering Facebook post about Globalism and Diversity.
  
  Brainwashed Germans will turn a blind eye and engage in avoidance behaviour when it comes to the 3rd World flood engulfing them.
  
  15 3
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  November 24, 2019 12:07pm
- Twinkletoes
  
  I have a friend who homes foreign students – her German student says that small incidences are barely reported in the German MSM because they are so common. They just live with it because they cannot eradicate these problems in their commmunity much the same as the other Europeans who made bad choices.
  
  Who knew that in Sweden this year alone that there have been over 100 bombings (small) by their friendly new citizens who apparently have access to weapons left over after the Balkan wars plus many incidents of Molotov coctail attacks?
  
  11 2
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  November 24, 2019 12:43pm
- Michael
  
  tn
  ask the 1000 women finger raped on a past ny.
  
  2 2
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  November 24, 2019 6:06pm
Maggie Pie

My partners mum txts…

“Everyone in the Village is saying Andrew Little has lost his marbles”

lol!!!
26 0
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November 24, 2019 11:34am
- chaos
  
  5hats the problem with elderly, they get confused easily and think he had any to start with
  
  6 0
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  November 24, 2019 1:06pm
  - sooty
    
    That bully Whinestone took them!
    
    4 0
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    November 24, 2019 2:16pm
Maggie Pie

As my partner just said “What a crim hugging dumb-arse”

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKCKnIXVAAAavjA?format=png&name=small

(…and even i didn’t think it meant ALL criminals?)
15 0
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November 24, 2019 12:11pm
- Paulus Gnome
  
  That woman is a fking fruit and nut bar!
  
  13 0
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  November 24, 2019 12:47pm
- chaos
  
  Silly idiot, useless mp. It’s not reversed. Andrew little wants to, but does anyone know if nz first would support that or throw a spanner in the works
  
  12 0
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  November 24, 2019 1:05pm
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  So did you go to Mass today Maggie?
  What did the sky fairy have to say?
  
  5 4
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  November 24, 2019 1:21pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Never miss attending St. Pat’s on a Sunday, Capt’n.
    I must have done something that really upset the ‘sky fairy’ though-
    Penance took twice as long this time 🙁
    
    12 1
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    November 24, 2019 1:40pm
Hugh Pavletich

UNITED STATES … Nationally new lots (sections) median price $49,500 …. National Association of Home Builders (NAHB) reports …

… 4 out of 5 Americans say there is a housing affordability crisis …

Lot Values Hit Record Highs … Natalia Sineavskaia … U.S National Association of Home Builders

http://eyeonhousing.org/2019/11/lot-values-hit-record-highs/

According to NAHB’s analysis of the Census Bureau’s Survey of Construction (SOC) data, median single-family lot prices outpaced inflation once again (4.4% vs 2.4%) and reached new record high in 2018, with half of the lots selling at or above $49,500. The most dramatic rise in lot values is observed in the West South Central division where median lot values more than doubled since the housing boom years. … read more via hyperlink above …
.
.
4 out of 5 Americans say there is a housing affordability crisis (NAHB Survey) … Mortgage Professionals of America Magazine

https://www.mpamag.com/market-update/4-out-of-5-americans-say-there-is-a-housing-affordability-crisis-177571.aspx
.
.
2019 15th Annual Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey

http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf

Housing Affordability Ratings … Median Multiples … All Markets

Australia 5.7
Canada 4.0
China (Hong Kong) 20.9
Ireland 3.7
New Zealand 6.5
Singapore 4.6
United Kingdom 4.8
United States 3.5
3 16
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November 24, 2019 12:21pm
- Hugh Pavletich
  
  Copy comment from colleague …
  
  That is unreal!
  
  I have put the m2 conversion on the map to show the sections are quite large for the median price. Average is 800m2 – so the m2 rate in the US is UNDER NZ$100/m2!
  
  Here is a new section in Auckland – at $1900/m2 – nineteen times the average US m2 rate!
  
  https://www.bayleys.co.nz/1330663
  
  Surely something is wrong here!
  
  4 11
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  November 24, 2019 5:10pm
Inandout

Ruth Ginsburg dies, what is stephie going to do now?
9 3
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November 24, 2019 12:32pm
gump

Boomer: Laughs when kids-these-days can’t use a Typewriter

Also Boomer: Where’s the button on this cellphone?
8 3
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November 24, 2019 12:37pm
- peterwn
  
  I could cut a stencil on my portable typewriter with the help of copious quantities of green Twink, and fit it in a Gestetner and run off copies without getting ink everywhere.
  Millennials probably do not have a clue what I am talking about.
  
  3 1
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  November 24, 2019 5:32pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    I would struggle with cutting a quill pen, too.
    
    2 0
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    November 24, 2019 6:08pm
mikenmildagain

Rudy Giuliani on Trump:
“I’ve seen things written like he’s going to throw me under the bus. When they say that, I say he isn’t, but I have insurance”
3 14
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November 24, 2019 1:19pm
- RW Capitalist
  
  reportedly, that “insurance” is actually evidence of Joe and Hunter Biden’s corruption.
  He will be indispensable then.
  
  3 2
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  November 24, 2019 4:15pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Ah, the Butt Hunter defence.
    
    1 3
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    November 24, 2019 6:09pm
Fletch

LOL, Schiff as Wylie Coyote trying to catch Roadrunner (“tweet, tweet”) Trump ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQJoar17jyo
8 2
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November 24, 2019 2:04pm
- krazykiwi
  
  “The Schiff Hits The Fan” 🙂
  
  4 2
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  November 24, 2019 4:57pm
- Rich Prick
  
  The Jeffery Dahmer eyes are just right too.
  
  1 2
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  November 24, 2019 5:24pm
- chaos
  
  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKFE5MqXsAAE2Qy.jpg:large
  
  3 0
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  November 24, 2019 5:32pm
krazykiwi

-1
0 0
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November 24, 2019 4:56pm
sooty

So did Cindy get to meet Big Ears?
2 0
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November 24, 2019 5:38pm
- chaos
  
  She was disappointed it wasn’t Andrew. She was hoping for advice on how to make sexual abuse and rape allegations disappear…..
  
  6 0
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  November 24, 2019 6:36pm
igm

This is the type of arsehole we taxpayers are keeping in nice homes.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/117593943/landlord-furious-after-tenant-pays-50-of-25k-worth-of-damage
Pity we did not have facts published of the disgusting and abused conditions most tradesmen face when being called to State houses to repair tenant damage and abuse.
It is disgusting, but Sepuloni has given tenants carte blanche for life, we the taxpayers once again footing the costs.
This whole CoL apparition are nothing but degenerate dishonest swine.
10 4
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November 24, 2019 5:40pm
- chaos
  
  Can you show me where in the article or the original article is says that this was someone receiving a rental allowance or on a benefit
  
  And having worked in state house never once received any abuse
  
  4 0
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  November 24, 2019 6:09pm
  - artemisia
    
    The Tenancy Tribunal decision will be published soon, so more information will be available. Decisions tend to be pretty detailed, especially where compensation for damage is disputed or not straightforward.
    
    0 1
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    November 24, 2019 7:54pm
- rightoverlabour
  
  well in a few years time this won’t be a problem because landlords will just leave the market. And the ferals will sleep in cars….
  
  5 0
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  November 24, 2019 6:24pm
chaos

Weird, when civil defence first did a cell phone test, can’t remember when that was, the phone made such a noise you couldn’t miss it. This one came in, didn’t even make a noise. Easy to not notice it, only noticed when someone told me the news aid it had been sent. Well that is a failure in my books, no emergency sound, wouldn’t look at my phone until after a tsunami hit then
2 1
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November 24, 2019 6:14pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Mine emitted a distinctive sound. Maybe it’s different depending on age or model of phone.
  
  0 1
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  November 24, 2019 6:41pm
  - sooty
    
    Or maybe you are an old fart!
    
    1 0
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    November 24, 2019 8:47pm
  - chaos
    
    And yet looking online there are a number of people whose phones didn’t get any sound, and like my phone are actually rather new phones. Again another failure of a civil Defense test.
    
    0 0
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    November 24, 2019 9:39pm
  - toby1845
    
    Or maybe you should stop keeping your phone down the front of your underpants.
    
    1 0
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    November 25, 2019 6:19am
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/117667294/man-shot-by-police-in-tauranga-after-hostage-incident
Good. Well done the police. Thanks.
6 1
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November 24, 2019 6:26pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Grief..
  What a terrifying experience for the 2 hostage children.
  
  6 0
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  November 24, 2019 7:03pm
- mandk
  
  I wonder what your downticker would have preferred, greybeard.
  
  An invitation to enjoy a nice cup of tea in the care of the police?
  
  Anyone who takes kids hostage using a weapon of any kind can only be regarded as posing the gravest of threats to innocent lives
  
  Sad outcome, but the correct response.
  
  4 0
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  November 24, 2019 7:09pm
- chaos
  
  Sorry that down tick was meant to be an uptick.
  
  5 0
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  November 24, 2019 7:27pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  As my partner just said when he saw this on the news,
  “On a positive note, it’s more chlorine added to the gene pool, and at least all the IPCA shiny-arses will get to meet again in the comfort of their plush office, drink piss and tell the police officers involved how they SHOULD have handled it.” WAFJ !!
  
  4 0
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  November 24, 2019 7:31pm
Swifty

No, no, no, no, no.

17 year old standing for National in Palmy:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12287917
4 0
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November 24, 2019 7:35pm
- chaos
  
  Reading the article he has done a lot as a 17 year old, more than most labour mps
  
  5 0
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  November 24, 2019 8:21pm
  - Swifty
    
    Yes, he sounds like he’s packed a lot into his early years and good luck to him in the future.
    
    However, this does not equip him, necessarily, with the experience, wisdom, battle scars nor temperament needed to make a good Member of Parliament.
    
    Nor has it given him a career to resume when his political career turn to custard as they all do.
    
    3 0
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    November 24, 2019 9:02pm
    - chaos
      
      Thank god we live in a great country where someone like him can run for politics because they believe in what they are doing. Sure there are a lot of people like yourself who will sadly judge him on his age, but at least he is doing something and not sitting on his fat ass behind a keyboard moaning because a young person is standing up and likely doing more for this country than whingers like you
      
      1 0
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      November 24, 2019 9:37pm
      - Swifty
        
        Babble.
        
        0 0
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        November 25, 2019 6:46am
    - Tony Stuart
      
      He’s unlikely to unseat Lees-Galloway Swifty, as he has a majority of over 6000 in his way. However it will be fantastic experience for a young man who from all reports a first class fella.
      
      Let’s not overlook a few things though. He won on the first ballot, against a sitting List MP (Jo Hayes) and the 2017 candidate (Adrienne Pierce); that’s some feat in itself, so he must have given an outstanding speech at the selection meeting. Also Palmerston North has a huge student population, so he will resonate with them. Lastly, it’s also a message to Labour and the Greens that they don’t have a mortgage on the youth vote, and if you saw some of the social media exchanges last night, the Left seems a bit unhinged about this youngster.
      
      He may not win in 2020, but he will be in with a real shot in 2023 if he sticks around.
      
      0 0
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      November 25, 2019 6:46am
brett68

WTF, this is just virtue signalling bullshit.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/117668485/national-selects-17yearold-william-wood-as-palmerston-north-candidate-for-2020-election

A 17 year old kid??????
3 7
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November 24, 2019 7:56pm
- sooty
  
  Still in short pants and does his mother still dress him?
  Too young to vote even!
  
  3 3
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  November 24, 2019 8:45pm
  - brett68
    
    This will be the work of that religious fucktard, Bridges.
    Fuck me,I’m tempted to vote Ardern because he’s such a wanker.
    
    I don’t actually want National winning in 2020 because they’re such disingenuous arseholes who are only in it for themselves.
    
    I’d rather suffer through another term of Labour than have National in its current iteration back in charge.
    
    1 13
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    November 24, 2019 9:01pm
    - chaos
      
      Well at 17 he already sounds more mature than you.
      
      5 0
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      November 24, 2019 9:33pm
    - mandk
      
      Only in it for themselves. In what way?
      
      Most Nat MPs have forged successful careers outside politics before they enter parliament.
      
      Labour MPs, on the other hand, very few have been anything other than apparatchiks.
      
      3 0
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      November 24, 2019 9:37pm
- mandk
  
  To be fair, most 17 year olds would be better than Ian Lees-Galloway.
  
  8 0
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  November 24, 2019 9:17pm

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