General Debate 2 April 2019

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krazykiwi

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the ~~state~~ Labour-led government can shield the people from the political, economic, and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the ~~state~~ Labour-led government to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the ~~state~~ Labour-led government. — Joseph Goebbels (paraphrased)

Big Lie #1: Hate speech exists.
Truth #1: No it doesn’t. As has been noted previously, hate is an emotion. A broad range of very different emotions can be behind the exact same speech. To accept the existence of hate speech, one must accept that interpretation of motivation* can be accurately established at a distance. It can’t, of course, leaving the door wide open for state abuse. In 1949 Orwell wrote that Newspeak was ”… designed to diminish the range of thought”. By punishing people for their words the state can control their thoughts. That groaning you can hear right now is Orwell lamenting his fiction being used as a political template.

Big Lie #2: We need to sacrifice (aka hand back to the state) civil liberties in order for us to be kept safe.
Truth #2: Nope, utterly false. History has taught us that removal of freedoms is an order of magnitude more dangerous to civil society than any theoretical abuse of existing civil liberties.

The neo-Marxists, Ardern et al appointed as our government by Winston Peters, are using the recent tragedy to feverishly fast-track their agenda. We are seeing pump-action virtue signalling to keep the masses swooning at their care and concern, while accelerating our move towards a statist society. Most of the media are on-board, and too many NZers are like frogs in the pot.

If you haven’t already, supporting the http://www.freespeechcoalition.nz is a good way to get some leverage against this trend. Other than donating, I am not affiliated with this group.

* ‘motivation’ and ‘emotion’ have the same Latin root, “movere” (to move).
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April 2, 2019 8:00am
- freethinker
  
  With weekend road toll at 14 I confidently expect Ardern to make another Craptains call to reduce it, reduce speed limits to 30k on open road and 10k in the city, ban driving in wet weather , poor visibility, when its dark the list is endless and will surely reduce road toll to zero and JAG and the Sage want with the added benefit of stuffing the economy, SARC.
  
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  April 2, 2019 8:31am
  - burt
    
    I expect an immediate ban on the make and model of the cars involved in that crash.
    
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    April 2, 2019 8:52am
    - kowtow
      
      Five years for failing to give way at a stop or yield sign and an immediate surrender of cell phones ,compensation details to be discussed at a later date.
      
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      April 2, 2019 8:56am
      - Rachael Membery
        
        So passengers shouldn’t use their phones either?
        
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        April 2, 2019 1:41pm
      - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
        
        any car larger than 1000cc, and any accessory capable of being fitted to a car should be made immediately a prohibited item.
        
        make is so comrades, we’ll sort out the fine print later.
        
        Off to the Gulags with the Kulaks who fail to get with the programme
        
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        April 2, 2019 6:11pm
    - Odakyu-sen
      
      I expect an immediate ban on the size of family for that specification of vehicle.
      
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      April 2, 2019 9:10am
    - dave_c_
      
      Indeed – no doubt too powerful and fast in the hands of granny.
      
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      April 2, 2019 10:51am
  - srylands
    
    Cause is stupid drivers and bad roads.
    
    I have driven a lot in Australia in the last year. Much better roads and better drivers. Some New Zealanders might not to hear the second part. But the incidence of stupid, aggressive driving there is much less than in New Zealand.
    
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    April 2, 2019 10:00am
    - cmm
      
      Bad roads do not cause crashes. Unless the road actually collapses underneath you as you drive over it, it cannot cause a crash.
      
      Not driving to conditions causes crashes.
      
      Poor road conditions do, however, mean that people who do not drive to conditions are more likely to exceed their abilities and end up causing crashes.
      
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      April 2, 2019 10:57am
      - srylands
        
        I agree with you. But people are fallible. People should not misjudge or fall asleep. But they do. And on most New Zealand roads that will be fatal. On a high quality, separated road with a median barrier, much, much less likely to be fatal.
        
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        April 2, 2019 11:16am
      - Rachael Membery
        
        Not wearing seatbelts seems to have been a contributing factor.
        
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        April 2, 2019 12:25pm
  - Nermal
    
    I note that in the “accident” that killed 5 people, none were wearing seatbelts. You can’t legislate against stupidity
    
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    April 2, 2019 2:05pm
- Kiwi Dave
  
  “ISIS are an evil threat and should be destroyed mercilessly.” “Mud people [nudge, nudge, wink, wink, you know whom I mean] are the enemy of white civilisation and should not be allowed to breed or vote.”
  
  I would say that hate speech exists, but that:
  
  1) there are serious problems in delineating the boundaries between hate speech and ‘legitimate’ opinion;
  2) the concept is often abused to suppress opposing views, reasonable or otherwise;
  3) the policing of hate speech gives excessive power to the state at the expense of individual freedom to hear and hold opinions;
  4) hate speech is more effectively countered by having it out in the open than by suppressing it.
  
  And yes, support the free speech coalition.
  
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  April 2, 2019 9:11am
  - Odakyu-sen
    
    In a free and open society, an individual can make the statement, “____ people are the enemy of _____ civilisation and should not be allowed to breed or vote.”
    What happens?
    – People can clearly see who is making the statement
    – They can debate the person in the public arena
    – The man with the best arguement wins
    – The public can see who the cranks with the nutty ideas are
    
    In a non-free society, the original statement would be suppressed and the speaker criminalized.
    – No public discussion
    – Resentment (real or imagined) festers
    – Civil tension increases
    – Ultimately, sectarian violence erupts
    
    Free speech is the mechanism by which members of a civil society attempt to solve their problems through the sincere exchange of ideas. It is a safety valve. Don’t tamper with it.
    
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    April 2, 2019 9:27am
    - Overworked
      
      Open information is crucial in a country like ours, where media can no longer be trusted to report objectively. For instance, the local media’s representation of the Christchurch murderer’s essay initially seems to have involved some serious cherry-picking in regard to references to Trump. The overseas media ended up being the major source of full information for NZers, and even the Guardian did responsible coverage.
      
      I think the Chief Censor has made a bad call on banning the document using the ‘weak minds’ argument as justification – in other words it’s fine for (god help us) the press to see, but not the great unwashed who don’t have the education or judgement to assess it reliably. An intellectually elitist decision if ever there was one.
      
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      April 2, 2019 1:37pm
- slightlyrighty
  
  Moderation is a thin edge of the wedge, and as much as I acknowledge that our host is free to moderate his own blog, Moderate is derived from the Latin Moderare, which means “to control”.
  
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  April 2, 2019 9:14am
  - Odakyu-sen
    
    A blog of free ideas under control.
    
    Irony meter in the red zone.
    
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    April 2, 2019 9:28am
  - SGA
    
    and as much as I acknowledge that our host is free to moderate his own blog
    
    And that is an important acknowledgement. Free speech provides no obligation on other individuals (e.g., DPF) or private organisations (e.g., Stuff) to provide a platform for that speech. They may be accused of being hypocrites or lacking “fair play”, on the other hand, if they are strong advocates of “free speech”
    
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    April 2, 2019 10:43am
    - cmm
      
      One might argue that free speech does impose obligations on organisations with near monopoly status (eg. Google/Facebook) or where the organisations are given special privileges (eg. journalists).
      
      Journalists are given certain rights (eg. protecting their sources) because they are supposed to be “the eyes and ears” of society. If they fail in that role by being biassed then they are abusing their extra powers.
      
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      April 2, 2019 11:03am
      - SGA
        
        You might. I’m not sure how you make it a legal obligation though – moral/ethical perhaps (hence my comments about “fair play” and hypocrisy). Your local newspaper has never had any obligation to publish all letters to the editor (and they never have).
        
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        April 2, 2019 11:16am
    - slightlyrighty
      
      Acknowledging a right does not mean that I agree with the exercising of that right in this manner. However, I would admit that the moderation policies of our host are far less draconian than Stuff.
      
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      April 2, 2019 2:53pm
      - SGA
        
        I guess I’m wondering about what the right of free speech means. As I see it it, it means that I can write “The World according to SGA”, print out copies and give it to people in the street (it’s only 273 words long 🙂 ), put it on my blog, talk to people who are willing to listen. But no one else has an obligation to provide a platform for me. No publisher need publish it, no blog or print media need carry extracts, no one need to review it. What happens on their “private property” is their own affair.
        
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        April 2, 2019 4:43pm
- The King
  
  Goebbels never said that quote and ill challenge you to provide either oral proof or written proof by Goebbels.
  
  Tip: you can’t.
  
  Here’s an actual quote from Goebbels: “Good propaganda does not need to lie, indeed it may not lie. It has no reason to fear the truth. It is a mistake to believe that people cannot take the truth.” September 1934 – Joseph Goebbels.
  
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  April 2, 2019 10:35am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    People deserve the unvarnished truth.
    
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    April 2, 2019 9:23pm
andrew davies

It appears an Australian mass murderer is now in control of our government. Exactly as he planned.
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April 2, 2019 8:00am
- ISeeRed
  
  Jesus, that gave me chills. And you’re not wrong.
  
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  April 2, 2019 8:56am
- Tony Stuart
  
  That’s an interesting perspective Andrew. I wonder how Marama Davidson and Golriz Ghahraman feel about being controlled by a “far-right white extremist”.
  
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  April 2, 2019 9:42am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Probably think that they are, Not James though.
    
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    April 2, 2019 1:44pm
Captain Mainwaring

After an absence of about 18 months, how nice it was to see Bill English on the TV again, as a guest on ‘The Project’.
Whether you agree or not with his stance on Seymour’s ‘Right to Die’ bill, the conviction he has for his views and his ability to elucidate his opinion makes me despair at why we allowed him to resign and saddle the country with bumbling Bridges in his place.
The only way we’re going to get rid of the incompetent Coalition of Lying Losers is to hope like Hell they’re going to self-destruct through their own ineptitude, helped by the MSM reporting the truth for a change.
Bridges ain’t going to do it.
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April 2, 2019 8:01am
- hullkiwi
  
  It may have been refreshing to hear Bill, but Maggie Barry did herself no favours. Last night on Q&A, she demonstrated the worst traits of a politician:
  1. Half done research; and
  2. Indescriminant use of half truths to attack your opponent.
  
  Seymour’s legislation is always going to get emotions running, but if you are going to debate and oppose a matter with another bill that is nothing more than a squirrel side show, at least show yourself to be informed.
  
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  April 2, 2019 8:19am
  - waikatogirl
    
    Bill’s perception is certainly coloured by his Catholicism and I believe Maggy Barry is also of the Catholic persuasion. They personally can no more see the other side of the argument as those true believers indocrinated in Marxism can see the conservative side of the political spectrum.
    
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    April 2, 2019 9:34am
    - David Garrett
      
      Waikato: I agree…although I don’t know anything about Maggy Barry’s religious beliefs, if any.
      
      English simply parrots the Vatican line on euthanasia; you might as well try and debate with a tree.
      
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      April 2, 2019 10:18am
      - Rob2
        
        Baggie went on like all bullies.
        Shouting over the argument.
        
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        April 2, 2019 12:32pm
    - Shaun the Sheep
      
      And speaking of not seeing the other side of the argument:
      It appears to me that the ‘right to die’ folk can’t see that not everyone is like them.
      They will make sane, considered decisions devoid of outside influence, on how to deal with circumstances not yet experienced – so that means everyone else will do the same.
      /
      
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      April 2, 2019 10:31am
  - Don the Kiwi
    
    Disagree.
    Seymour was rudely interrupting Barry constantly and doing the lefty thing – putting words in her mouth.
    My opinion of Seymour plummeted – I used think he was pretty good, but not now.
    
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    April 2, 2019 9:44am
    - hullkiwi
      
      Don, that was opposed to Barry stating what she says will happen (despite the safeguards in the proposed bill) and then exaggerating about how the system works in Canada. What she claimed last night was the law in Canada was such that doctors engage in malpractice & unethical behaviour.
      
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      April 2, 2019 11:38am
      - Rob2
        
        Remember that don is another Vatican cuddler.
        
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        April 2, 2019 12:33pm
      - Rachael Membery
        
        That is not what the Canadian Dr on AM said because it is sanctioned by law, law and ethics are not one and the same. She definitely thought that NZ should not let that genie out of the bottle.
        Even if the law allowed euthanasia. Morally I would not.
        
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        April 2, 2019 1:48pm
      - Batman
        
        Yes and she was on Hosking yesterday too, of course she is a paid expert for the opponents so of course she thinks that!
        
        It’s the same trick the left try to pull all the time
        
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        April 2, 2019 1:55pm
      - waikatogirl
        
        That is not what the Canadian Dr on AM…
        
        Yes she spoke well against the right to die with dignity bill. She had me right up to when it became clear she worked in a Hospice (who do wonderful work and support those who choose their help).
        
        That is not the way for everyone and some of us want the option to have a final wish of choosing WHEN and how we go while having family present to support us. Not too much to ask for!
        
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        April 2, 2019 2:34pm
- krazykiwi
  
  Bill is a thoroughly decent bloke. Smart, hard-working, honest. I’m very grateful for his leadership over the years. Bill is the antithesis of the inept, dishonest crowd at the helm today.
  
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  April 2, 2019 8:22am
  - Rob2
    
    That may be so but that doesn’t make his religious views any more right than others views.
    And that is the difference between data (of which he is a fan ), and dogma, paranoia and feels.
    
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    April 2, 2019 12:34pm
- waikatogirl
  
  They said the same thing about Bill during his first stint as leader of the National Party. Admittedly he was very wooden back then and improved exponentially before retaking the PM position when JK departed.
  
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  April 2, 2019 8:41am
  - Sacha
    
    @ waikatogirl: Could there be a parallel drawn with Simon Bridges?
    I am one of those who feel that he will mature into his role – like Bill English, he has a solid educational background, and experience in a career that required him to be considered in his arguments. and there is nothing like parenthood to build character and a sense of order in one’s affairs.
    It takes time to adapt from being a ‘back room’ toiler with a solid track record into an accepted leader. Let’s hope for a successful transition. I am optimistic that Simon Bridges will make it.
    New Zealand deserves nothing less.
    
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    April 2, 2019 9:16am
    - waikatogirl
      
      My exact point Sacha. ?
      
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      April 2, 2019 9:36am
  - Steve Todd
    
    @waikatogirl @8:41AM
    
    During his first stint as National Party leader, Bill English was the Leader of the Opposition. He did not “[re-take] the PM position when JK departed.”
    
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    April 2, 2019 10:08am
    - waikatogirl
      
      Apologies Steve. Senior moment? ?
      
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      April 2, 2019 3:03pm
      - Steve Todd
        
        No worries, waikatogirl.
        
        For the record, and just to be clear, I was only correcting your comment, not admonishing you.
        
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        April 2, 2019 4:49pm
- MrTips
  
  I didn’t see it but surprised the Project went anywhere near English – good for them. And you’re right, English really was hitting his straps as Winston decided to turf him. We are much the poorer for it.
  
  As for Seymour, he is either willfully ignorant to the point of potato, or lying through his teeth. There is clear, undisputed evidence, published by pro-euthanasia people themselves, that there is a persistent 2% rate of euthanasia carried out on people who never requested it in multiple jurisdictions.
  
  It’s all about the message. Parliament is pretty quick to send a message that guns are bad, even Seymour jumped on that train. But now Seymour wants us to turn around and say, “she’ll be right”?
  
  Sorry, but NO.
  
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  April 2, 2019 9:22am
  - hullkiwi
    
    Your statement about Seymour is incorrect. During Q&A last night, he highlighted University of Auckland research that confirms 4% of terminally ill deaths are because medicines are over prescribed by the attending medical practitioner.
    
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    April 2, 2019 11:32am
secondcumming

CONFUCIUS SAY…..

“Trust me. I’m from China”
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April 2, 2019 8:04am
- Yvette
  
  • But in a pointed comment President Xi Jinping also said the two countries have to “trust each other” if there are to be future opportunities for development.
  
  • The Prime Minister is refusing to say whether she’s using her own personal phone in China or a burner phone, like her staff, to avoid any potential security risks like eavesdropping spies.
  
  • The Prime Minister was distancing herself from the decision to block Huawei’s planned roll out of 5G in New Zealand. It’s on our spies – the GCSB – but they, of course, work for her.
  
  Yes, transparent and honest trust
  
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  April 2, 2019 8:16am
  - krazykiwi
    
    re your burner phone point, for the last 20 years our GCSB has issued all PM’s with burner phones just prior to each overseas trip. It’s a sensible security measure in my view.
    
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    April 2, 2019 8:29am
    - Yvette
      
      Krazykiwi, accepting what you say, is it still not utterly counterproductive that a member of the party travelling with Ardern, has leaked or raised the point of burner phones so it is reported back here, for the Chinese Consulate people to in turn report it home.
      It still seems a little bizarre to undermine Ardern’s one day visit in that way.
      
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      April 2, 2019 9:02am
      - krazykiwi
        
        Yes, completely inappropriate. Possibly an excited little first-time official, one who’s binge-watched a few too many cop dramas 🙂
        
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        April 2, 2019 9:38am
      - sooty
        
        She didn’t need help to undermine the China visit! She did that all by her self! 10hrs on the ground, it’s a wonder he turned up!
        
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        April 2, 2019 9:42am
      - freethinker
        
        I doubt the Chinese or any other Govt does not know Burner phones are widely used by visiting politicians and others so will utilise other methods of gleaning information.
        
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        April 2, 2019 10:28am
  - kowtow
    
    Interesting .
    
    ‘She broke with tradition while on government business and talked up the role of the Labour Party in having advanced relations with China.
    She cited former Labour Prime Minister Norman Kirk in recognising China in 1972 and former Labour Prime Minister Helen Clark signing a free trade agreement in 2008.’
    
    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/beijing-ready-strengthen-ties-nz
    
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    April 2, 2019 8:38am
    - cmm
      
      So does this trip get counted as election spending?
      
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      April 2, 2019 11:06am
    - calendar girl
      
      Ardern’s no diplomat. She’s there to promote NZ’s relations with China, not just those of her precious Labour Party.
      
      How dare she politicise and cheapen this country’s critical international relationships! She’s already half-way through her Government’s 3-year term, but is still too immature to distinguish between her responsibilities as NZ Prime Minister and her misplaced publicity for the NZ Labour Party.
      
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      April 2, 2019 3:37pm
  - Simon
    
    The CCP vile and disgusting regime. Unless you utterly righteous (which our lot anit) the CPP shit up everything and everyone they touch.
    
    Ardern smeared herself in shit meeting Xi.
    
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    April 2, 2019 9:04am
- hullkiwi
  
  Did anyone catch the comment from Ardern, “that she is proud of the way the Labour Party have furthered NZ/China relations”?
  
  Staggering, says it all about the “yuff adjacent generation”!
  
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  April 2, 2019 8:33am
  - waikatogirl
    
    Yes, it is all the Labour Party building relationships with China Cindy. I imagine in the wake of Cindy’s official visit the Chinese have forgotten they funded a very recent trip for Mark Mitchell from the National Party to visit China last month.
    // ?
    
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    April 2, 2019 9:42am
  - Liberty
    
    “Party have furthered NZ/China relations”?
    
    As long as they don’t have a chinese sounding name
    And want to buy a house of The Minister of clusterfucks.
    
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    April 2, 2019 9:45am
  - sooty
    
    Nah!
    She’s 38yrs now! Youth adjacent my arse!
    
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    April 2, 2019 9:48am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    Anyone for “Chinese-sounding names”?
    
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    April 2, 2019 11:03am
- Rachael Membery
  
  Nice show of military might by China, do we just reciprocate with a Maori challenge and poking out of tongue?
  
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  April 2, 2019 8:48am
  - sooty
    
    You have to have the maori dancing at these events, it’s expected! It’s why we pay them so much! The maori dancing party must have been pissed to go that distance, a couple of laps around the dance floor, a quick feed and back on the plane! Hardly enough time to hitt he duty free shop!
    
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    April 2, 2019 9:54am
  - mark15
    
    Armed with SKS rifles too…sniff
    
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    April 2, 2019 12:06pm
- Nigel Kearney
  
  Trusting someone because they’re from China would be foolish. Refusing to trust someone for no other reason except that they’re from China would be equally foolish.
  
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  April 2, 2019 9:34am
kowtow

One law for all ?

‘A Dunedin gym owner who broke a man’s jaw in a bar fight has walked away without a conviction after police gave him diversion.
Timothy Azad Medlicott (27) was originally charged with causing grievous bodily harm with intent to injure…’

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/crime/diversion-after-mans-jaw-broken
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April 2, 2019 8:08am
- Tall Man
  
  “CCTV footage of the incident made it clear that the victim was the agitator.”
  
  So the “agitator” earned himself a smack in the mouth.
  
  “Her client threw the punch, she said, only because he believed he was about to be struck.”
  
  Good for him. In many instances he would have received the beating but he did what many would have done, defended himself. I for one agree with the police decision as supported by the courts.
  
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  April 2, 2019 8:30am
  - kowtow
    
    “Her client threw the punch, she said, only because he believed he was about to be struck.”
    
    She would say that , wouldn’t she .
    
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    April 2, 2019 9:00am
    - Tall Man
      
      And uness her name was the same as our pm or the pr girl she may be telling the truth.
      
      He looks like a fairly fit young fellow. Be it on your head if you want to have a crack at him.
      
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      April 2, 2019 9:56am
  - peterwn
    
    In this case the response seemed disproportionate to the threat but a jury could have acquitted on self defence grounds. It would have seemed touch and go. So it seemed the police brokered a deal so the offender suffered an informal penalty rather than the offender walking away free.
    
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    April 2, 2019 9:07am
    - Colinxy
      
      peterwn,
      
      The lower jaw is easy to break if the jaw is open at the moment of impact. There’s not enough details given in the article to determine whether the response was “disproportionate”.
      
      kowtow,
      
      You’re still allowed to defend yourself if you feel the threat was imminent.
      
      How long before self defence laws are under threat from the CoL is anybody’s guess.
      
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      April 2, 2019 9:47am
      - peterwn
        
        There are two legs to self defence (s48 Crimes Act). The first leg (belief of threat) seemed to have been met in this case. The second leg allows a reasonable response to the threat so in this case the issue was whether the response of punching the person in the jaw was reasonable. The person who threw the punch probably could have responded in some other manner (a motorist threw a punch in somewhat similar circumstances and was convicted as the response was considered unreasonable in the circumstances). If it had gone to trial that would have been a matter for a jury to decide with possibly a 60% chance of conviction.
        Incidentally ‘dirty hands’ (eg the defender using a weapon he should not have had) does not invalidate self defence.
        
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        April 2, 2019 11:09am
      - cmm
        
        “How long before self defence laws are under threat from the CoL is anybody’s guess.”
        
        Self defence has been under attack in NZ for a very long time.
        
        Since as long as I have lived here (26 years) it has been illegal to carry a weapon in your vehicle for defensive purposes. I recall a few weeks after arriving in NZ that a person got done for having a baseball bat in his car without a legitimate reason (not on his way to/from a baseball game and not a baseball player).
        
        Of course it is easy enough to make up a plausible reason for carrying a knife or whatever, but self defence is not a legal answer.
        
        The desired process seems to be: get the cops to sort it out. Of course that’s problematic if the cops take longer to turn up than it takes for the offender to throw a punch.
        
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        April 2, 2019 11:14am
      - Colinxy
        
        cmm,
        
        English Common Law permits the use of reasonable force for self defence. It does not permit excessive force. This is a point I generally agree with.
        
        I agree with you on the carrying of weapons. It was a mark of a free man to be able to carry a weapon openly. Serfs and slaves on the other hand were not. Somewhere along the line, we’ve lost that freedom. It seems to me that we’re on that Road to Serfdom.
        
        BTW, you’re not allowed to wear body armour in this country. I actually consider that worse than the inability to carry weapons for self defence. For what drastic reason can someone not wear protection against people with weapons?
        
        In addition to all that, reasonable force interpretation appears to come down to the police officer. Generally, the longer on the Police Force, the better. Those new tend to be extremely uppity and want everything to go to trial for excessive force, which is possibly what happened here. The more experienced ones tend to have enough wherewithal not to annoy those who genuinely defend themselves.
        
        peterwn,
        
        Yes, because someone will just stand there and let you pick the exact place to target. I do get tired of armchair experts (I have been in a lot of fights). People move in a fight. Where you might want to hit and where you land can be mutually exclusive.
        
        For example (because it is an easy example), Kyokushin Karate tournaments do not permit punches to the head (note the word ‘punches’). It has been known for some competitors to move their heads deliberately into the path of a punch as a way to win by disqualification (DQ). I use this as an example that people move. They particularly move when someone tries to punch them in the head even if it is merely a flinch. A flinch can change target.
        
        On the other hand, perhaps the jaw was deliberately targeted (it is a good place to land a blow after all). Even in this scenario, the jaw may have opened after the fist was swung. You may believe someone can just magically stop a blow in mid-swing too but then you wouldn’t understand physics or reaction times.
        
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        April 2, 2019 1:48pm
    - Tall Man
      
      The police would have not only have had access to the CCTV but also the “witness” statements and it has not been revealed what the supposed “victim” actually said.
      
      I have responded to verbal and physical threats and have had to deal with the police and each time the threats issued were demmed severe enough to warrant my response.
      
      Threats to family and property are common with one group of citizens and the fear of those threats being turned into reality is very real.
      
      In my world, much younger world, you stepped in with a threat you got a clip.
      
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      April 2, 2019 12:01pm
  - Rob2
    
    Should never have been charged if police had used their supposed brain power.
    
    Which brings me to that point.
    They are going to be very busy little fellows what with an increasing road toll they have to fix and now guns to collect and a daily parade somewhere with al their armour just to remind everyone that we now have a police state with gins at the ready.
    Then of course they are going to have to nobble all you sods for your hate speech. Not sure what they will do with those that preach death to infidels everyday. That surely qualifies as hate speech. But then who knows with the giant intellectuals who now run this country!
    
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    April 2, 2019 12:42pm
- peterwn
  
  Unfortunately the victim agreed to receive $2k reparation in exchange for allowing diversion to get the matter out of his hair. The Police should have made a more strenuous effort to ensure the victim had made a properly informed decision. Also the case was serious enough that a prosecution should have been proceeded with anyway. This decision has also undermined the authority of other nations eg Australia to deny entry to such offenders.
  Some police officer should be given a meeting without coffee over this.
  
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  April 2, 2019 8:46am
  - peterwn
    
    See other comments. It seemed the offender had a reasonable chance of acquittal if it had gone to trial.
    
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    April 2, 2019 9:08am
    - cmm
      
      I’d pay $2k to avoid a “reasonable chance of acquittal”.
      
      Heck, I’d pay $2k even to avoid a “100% chance of acquittal”.
      
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      April 2, 2019 11:16am
      - Tall Man
        
        Exactly, the legal costs would be considerable.
        
        4 1
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        April 2, 2019 11:55am
    - Tall Man
      
      One punch under threat of whatever the “victim” said seems an very minimal response.
      
      If after he’d thrown the punch, he leant over and gave a couple more then that would definitely incur a charge and rightfully so.
      
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      April 2, 2019 11:57am
- snoup
  
  An if Labour gets its way, soon the uttering of “hateful” words will be more harshly punished than the breaking of bones. Taking us not just halfway, but all the way down “modern Europe’s” path.
  
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  April 2, 2019 8:49am
hullkiwi

Peters on Red Radio this morning. He has NOT read the draft bill on banning semi-automatic weapons.

He thinks it only bans the weapons. It is a classic case of don’t trust the politicians, those passing on the message and those in the law office drafting the bill. Because the bill will make it illegal to have parts for a gun that. Parts that are common to most guns.

Peters spoke as though he the law refers to only semi-automatics, it doesn’t. It will be fun watching him explain himself to his supporters in provincial NZ.

Good riddance Peters, you & you party will not be missed!
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April 2, 2019 8:11am
- mikenmildagain
  
  hullkiwi
  You may well be entirely correct about the proposed legislation. I know very little about firearms.
  But I think you are making a mistake if you think that technical deficiences in legislative proposals lead to significant political reactions. Many, many laws and regulations are waved through in the face of informed and expert advice because they are seen politically as the right thing to do. Politicians are generally ill-informed about specifics, but know what resonates with their core supporters and the relatively small additional section of voters whom they seek to persuade.
  While people familiar with the details of a specific issue will often be astonished at the ideas that hold political sway in that domain, there is also the paradoxical effect that such people will not often change their voting intentions just because they disagree over that one issue.
  So I doubt that any changes to firearms legislation, no matter how illogical or draconian they are for some gun owners, will have any actual political effect.
  
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  April 2, 2019 8:57am
  - freethinker
    
    Those affected especially if the compensation effectively imposes a financial penalty will likely be less well disposed to a Govt which enacts legislation in a knee jerk fashion with little consultation or advice from real experts. Such opinion once formed is hard to shift and the revenge electorally will persist for decades.
    
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    April 2, 2019 10:38am
    - Rachael Membery
      
      We can but hope.
      
      3 0
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      April 2, 2019 1:56pm
  - cmm
    
    The current MSSA laws are ridiculous. Anyone that has looked at them, and has sufficient knowledge to understand them, will tell you that – regardless of where they stand on gun rights.
    
    Most of the factors that define MSSAs have no functional impact on the ability of the firearm to kill people. Rubbish like whether it has a pistol grip, flash hider, etc. Most of the factors are “does it look mean”. Complete emotional bullshit. The only meaningful clause is magazine size and even that has been so badly constructed that it is largely meaningless.
    
    The problem with so-called “expert advice” is that there are far too many advocates dressed up as experts.
    
    We have laws to fill a purpose in society. Law making should be logical otherwise the laws are impossible to enforce and they fail to have their intended effect.
    
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    April 2, 2019 11:26am
    - mark15
      
      ‘The ability of the firearm TO BE USED BY SOMEONE to kill people.
      
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      April 2, 2019 12:09pm
- Liberty
  
  It just another example that Peters is losing it.
  The proposed draconian gun law will alienate his core supporters.
  Bye bye NZF
  
  19 1
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  April 2, 2019 10:07am
  - Captain Mainwaring
    
    And why did he keep referring to Mike Hosking this morning as Mr. Hoskins?
    Is this just deliberate rudeness, plain ignorance, or both?
    
    15 1
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    April 2, 2019 11:08am
    - Steve Todd
      
      I heard it as Mr Hoskings. No matter, the answer to your question is “just deliberate rudeness”, in my view, exacerbated by his political career-long inability to control his anger.
      
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      April 2, 2019 11:31am
      - hullkiwi
        
        Peters got a hard time from Espiner this morning over speeches he made in 2005 about “the underbelly of Islamic extremeism”. The interview was more entertainment than informative.
        
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        April 2, 2019 12:34pm
DigNap15

Why?
Why do we have laws?
Why do we have police?
Why do we have courts?
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April 2, 2019 8:14am
- Odakyu-sen
  
  It’s a good thing that laws, courts and the police are separate entities.
  
  19 1
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  April 2, 2019 8:46am
  - freethinker
    
    Looking at court cases you could have fooled me. And talking of court cases has the Labour youth sex pervert case been tried yet, it seems harder to get an answer than calling the Pope on his cellphone!
    
    18 1
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    April 2, 2019 10:41am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    And Parliament? 🙂
    
    2 0
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    April 2, 2019 9:31pm
- Albert_Ross
  
  Imagine yourself an average female, or even a weedy bloke, in a world where we didn’t. How do you fancy your chances of getting through today unraped, unrobbed and unmurdered?
  
  10 2
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  April 2, 2019 9:41am
  - freethinker
    
    Check out you tube on Brazil were a Large Male stopped in a deserted street and aggressively approached a lone female with a clear intent of doing something she would not be agreeable to. Fortunately she was an off duty cop, pulled out her gun and shot the arsehole dead, problem solved , bullets are very cheap.
    
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    April 2, 2019 10:44am
kowtow

Someone posted this item last night on GD . I’m reposting .

‘Newspaper editor stands by PM ‘dumb-as-a-plank’ remark in gun reform story’

If the PM can call Bridges ‘simple Simon’ in the House then surely we as citizens have the right to express ourselves in relation to the PM’s smarts or otherwise .

The other issue here is the Herald reporter has gone to advertisers of said offending paper for their views , one wonders what the motivation there is , is there an undertone that one should be concerned about one’s livelihood if one is not of the new Orthodoxy ?

The media have really stepped up a few notches in their new found role of High Priests of the New Morality.

Look at how they’re treating Cassons.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12218204
52 2
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April 2, 2019 8:18am
- Rachael Membery
  
  Absolute bullying behaviour, and more to come.
  
  34 2
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  April 2, 2019 8:51am
- DigNap15
  
  That guy is a hero!
  Someone with the guts to stick it to Ardern in public!
  
  35 1
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  April 2, 2019 9:06am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Can we really see Nash fronting up to the gangs telling them to be citizens first and gang members after?
    
    Are we able to call Nash Gnashers a la Crusher?
    
    22 2
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    April 2, 2019 9:20am
  - Don the Kiwi
    
    Give that man, Graham Carter a medal – a man after my own heart. No bullshit, straight to the point, no mincing words.
    Excellent.
    
    24 2
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    April 2, 2019 10:00am
- Than
  
  This was something that concerned me when DPF posted his new standards for acceptable comments. There was a section on personal insults, and how these would no longer be acceptable. My question was, what about cases where somebody has a genuinely held belief about a politicians lack of ability in some area?
  
  The key example I was interested in was Jacinda Ardern. She clearly has a quick wit and is an excellent communicator. But I genuinely believe she is not good with numbers, with recalling policy details, or with thinking through consequences (especially unintended ones) of policies. In summary, I believe the “substanceless” accusation to be completely true (and I’d be quite willing to back that up with supporting evidence). Is making this claim (or any similar statement about a politicians strengths and weaknesses) not allowed anymore?
  
  (Mod: Criticising a person’s behaviour or their ability or the lack thereof will generally be fine. Criticising their appearance or other personal attributes is likely to draw our attention, especially if it happens repeatedly.)
  
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  April 2, 2019 9:22am
  - cmm
    
    “Criticising their appearance or other personal attributes is likely to draw our attention,”
    
    Some of this will surely depend on whether the person’s competence is impacted by their attributes or appearance.
    
    It might not be a person’s fault if they are really, really, disgustingly ugly. But if they have entered a beauty pageant then they have opened themselves to scrutiny.
    
    It may not be a person’s fault if they have an awful speech impediment. But if they become a radio announcer or a politician – which require good public speaking ability – then they open themselves to criticism.
    
    Same surely for a person who has accepted the job of being both a PM. If she lacks certain key attributes then it is not her fault until she takes a job where it is.
    
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    April 2, 2019 12:01pm
- MrTips
  
  Carter is obviously not a member of the Pravda Facebook Geuvera website….
  
  12 1
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  April 2, 2019 9:24am
- rangitoto
  
  Please stop insulting planks.
  
  12 2
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  April 2, 2019 9:56am
- Yvette
  
  Under the legislation, unlawful possession of a prohibited firearm in a public place would result in seven years imprisonment, and using a prohibited firearm to resist arrest would carry a penalty of 10 years in prison.
  
  Does this mean a prohibited firearm within the private boundaries of a gang property has a different status if moved to a public area outside the property?
  How about the boot of a car, to outside the car?
  How about making sensible law right from the start?
  
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  April 2, 2019 10:10am
  - cmm
    
    You’d think “unlawful possession of a prohibited firearm” would be enough.
    
    If it is prohibited, then surely it is unlawful to posess it.
    
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    April 2, 2019 12:03pm
    - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
      
      Except the bill essentially prohibits anything that the police wants to. Firearm parts that might fit on a semi – prohibited, mag tubes for pumps, prohibited, ammunition they don’t like, prohibited.
      
      From a reading of the Bill, scopes, sights, stocks, magazines, silencers are all prohibited, and no clarity at all about how to decide.
      
      Made it very dangerous for any legal gun owner. Poor law indeed. A massive trampling on rights.
      
      I hope those mealy mouthed hunters have a rethink now that it affects them too.
      
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      April 2, 2019 6:18pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  Might get a few more subscribers. That will please their advertisers.
  
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  April 2, 2019 11:03am
- Ross12
  
  I do not follow the MSM much because of what it has become but have they remind their readers/viewers that the PM chaired a committee earlier in this Government’s time in office that actually make application for a firearms licence easier ( electronic “communication” with Police instead of fronting up was I understand to have happened).
  I’m not criticising having a review but lets have some balance about what has happened.
  
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  April 2, 2019 11:31am
Maggie Pie

My partnwers mum is over the moon!
She txt us this morning to say that her Super has gone up by $2.03 a day.
I just txt her back “dinner at your place then ma?”
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April 2, 2019 8:25am
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  How the hell did that happen?
  Mine’s gone up by $2.26 a FORTNIGHT.
  Thanks Labour. NOT.
  
  24 1
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  April 2, 2019 9:04am
  - greybeard
    
    https://kaspanz.com/2019/03/21/2019-nz-superannuation-increase/
    
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    April 2, 2019 11:32am
- Albert_Ross
  
  With the apparent approval of a handful of uptickers, you are forming a judgement the Government based on the criterion of how much of money they give you.
  
  That’s your right, but do we really want to encourage politicians in their apparent fondness for taking money from some people and giving it to other people?
  
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  April 2, 2019 10:35am
- Steve Todd
  
  Hey, Maggie, that increase only reflects the transition between fortnights. She’ll be really stoked when she sees her next fortnight’s payment.
  
  For example, the married couples rate has actually increased by $15.82 each per fortnight! Happy days. (See https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/products/benefit-rates/benefit-rates-at-1-april-2019.html#null.)
  
  @Captain Mainwaring. Be patient, Cap’n.
  
  And Albert, don’t be a killjoy.
  
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  April 2, 2019 11:09am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Thank you every one above for clarifying that – I’ve let her know the good news! Thing is, its as my future mim inlaw has always said, she pays more in tax on her TDs than most people earn in a year.
    
    4 1
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    April 2, 2019 11:45am
  - alien
    
    So in reality it has increased by bugger all. Not even cover the rising cost of living.
    
    1 1
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    April 2, 2019 2:25pm
  - Lizziep
    
    Its the annual const of living adjustment. NOT a handout from Labour. The annual cost of living adjustment has happened for ever?? Not sure but ages anyway. So thanking Labour for it is just wrong.
    
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    April 2, 2019 2:42pm
  - toby1845
    
    Of course, superannuation payments would have increased by approx $40 per fortnight if National’s tax cuts had been left in place.
    
    4 1
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    April 2, 2019 2:56pm
- cmm
  
  Did you explain to her that the tax she’s paying on everything will go up to compensate?
  
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  April 2, 2019 12:05pm
Happychappy

Not a word from the PM or the media on how her talks over the human rights issues with the Uighur Muslims went or was it again big noting a problem that has nothing to do with NZ.
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April 2, 2019 8:43am
- hullkiwi
  
  No, you have to read between the lines as to what President Xi said.
  “We have to trust and respect each others’ traditions”.
  
  No chance for human rights then!
  
  19 1
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  April 2, 2019 9:05am
  - Happychappy
    
    Hullkiwi it looks like we will never know the answer as again not much transparency being shown by the PM especially after her tone when political point scoring.
    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/04/jacinda-ardern-keeps-quiet-on-comments-to-chinese-government-about-human-rights-abuses.html
    The silence is deafening.
    
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    April 2, 2019 12:57pm
    - toby1845
      
      i haven’t heard anything about her condemning the Sultan of Brunei yet, either.
      
      An air-headed hypocrite.
      
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      April 2, 2019 2:59pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  Our saviour, will she overtake Mohamed?
  
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  April 2, 2019 9:06am
Lee C

FYI – Bridges:

Roosevelt’s use of the phrase “the forgotten man” proved effective – he won a landslide victory.

Roosevelt took the phrase from Yale sociology professor William Graham Summer, who wrote about “the forgotten man” in a Harper’s Weekly article published in 1883. Summer described the “forgotten man” as a “simple, honest laborer, ready to earn his living by productive work. We pass him by because he is independent, self-supporting, and asks no favors.”

Summer, an advocate for keeping government out of private enterprise, declared that the forgotten man sought “no paternal, undue government.” Roosevelt cleverly reversed the phrase to mean that the federal government needed to do more to relieve unemployment and promote recovery.

Since then the idea of the forgotten man, the little guy ignored by politicians, has loomed large in American political rhetoric.

http://theconversation.com/politicians-have-long-used-the-forgotten-man-to-win-elections-103570
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April 2, 2019 8:44am
- lastmanstanding
  
  Sounds like me and hundreds of thousands of others who pay their taxes and rates dont cause the Police any bother and live a civil lawful life.
  
  So thats what we do for the Gumint.
  
  What does the Gumint do for us?
  
  NOTHING!!!!! except cause us grief.
  
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  April 2, 2019 9:40am
  - Albert_Ross
    
    What do you want Government to do for you? Sounds as though you’re quite capable of getting on without their help.
    
    7 4
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    April 2, 2019 9:43am
    - freethinker
      
      Answer AR – Stop interfering in aspects of my life you have no business in, no practical knowledge of and then tax me for the privilege. Here’s how for every new piece of legislation remove 5 other laws and 25 regulations. Until then I will continue to work to reduce Govt size and ability to interefere.
      
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      April 2, 2019 10:53am
Ford Prefect

Great speech by Dr Alice Weidel, giving the other side of Brexit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63IcW4eo4uM
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April 2, 2019 8:48am
- krazykiwi
  
  Wow. What an intelligent, articulate woman. I’d have her as our PM in a instant, returning the current one to working a chip vat.
  
  21 1
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  April 2, 2019 9:08am
  - sooty
    
    She was only wrapping!
    
    7 2
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    April 2, 2019 10:05am
    - Tauhei Notts
      
      Would you call her “a white wrapper?”
      
      10 2
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      April 2, 2019 10:43am
- freethinker
  
  Agreed and other speeches by AFD in the Bundestag showing how small the real tax base was after excluding benefits and public servants who effectively pay no tax as they are taxpayer funded show how narrow the real Base of The tax Pyramid is 15 million actual taxpayers out of 83 million population.
  
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  April 2, 2019 12:39pm
mark15

I’m disgusted.
I’ve had a firearms license all my adult life(28 years) and yesterday I became a criminal at the stroke of a pen.
Whether NZ is for or against the private ownership of firearms this legislation and the speed at which it will be passed is an affront to democracy.
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April 2, 2019 8:49am
- MCos
  
  The legislation hasn’t been introduced to parliament yet, let alone passed into law.
  Subsequently the intention is to have an amnesty period.
  So you’re not yet a criminal unless you breach the Order in Council that covered sale of restricted weapons, I believe.
  
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  April 2, 2019 9:08am
  - kowtow
    
    From the police website . You are now in unlawful possession. That was done by order in council , a stroke of the pen.
    
    ‘Police encourages any person now in unlawful possession of a firearm, as it is now classified as a MSSA, to notify Police to arrange to hand over the firearm to our custody. The transitional period allows for people to do so without facing any penalties (link is external).’
    
    https://www.police.govt.nz/advice/firearms-and-safety/changes-firearms
    
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    April 2, 2019 9:22am
    - MCos
      
      You’re right.
      Mark15 is potentially unlawfully in possession of an illegal gun. However there’s going to be an amnesty period so I don’t think the Stassi will be kicking down his door at dawn just yet.
      
      Fifty or sixty years ago my uncle had his nose out of joint with some gun law change and refused to cooperate.
      He hid his twenty two in the ceiling or somewhere. The police, who knew him personally and knew he had the gun, came round, puffed out their chests and stared him down, sorted out the issue and stayed for a cup of tea.
      
      7 4
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      April 2, 2019 10:10am
      - Ford Prefect
        
        Sounds like the first scene from Inglorious Bastards. Only a New Zealand version
        
        6 0
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        April 2, 2019 11:13am
      - freethinker
        
        I upticked for the first sentence which is were you should have stopped as the rest is just padding.
        
        2 0
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        April 2, 2019 12:42pm
  - Rachael Membery
    
    The intention is to deprive us of our long standing rights.
    
    19 1
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    April 2, 2019 9:22am
    - dave_c_
      
      Indeed – ‘rights’, plural – Tip of the iceberg stuff. Start with this, and the list in their wishlist becomes that much easier and straightforward to implement.
      Watch this space !
      
      13 0
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      April 2, 2019 11:08am
- Odakyu-sen
  
  Foreigners causing mayhem in New Zealand, and so the State punishes the natives.
  Where is the logic in that?
  
  51 1
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  April 2, 2019 9:12am
  - krazykiwi
    
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary”.
    — H. L. Mencken
    
    27 1
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    April 2, 2019 9:23am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Lucky we aren’t punished for the unruly ones.
    
    9 2
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    April 2, 2019 9:24am
- LTA1955
  
  Unfortunately all we can do is express our disgust at the ballot box in November 2020, you are in the company of thousands of other licensed firearms owners in the same position. Throw the COL down the electoral hydroslide to oblivion
  
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  April 2, 2019 9:59am
Happychappy

I thought Labour was against Prisons and the amount of Maori that are incarcerated in them, so you would think a level head approach would be better than a dictatorship.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12218289
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April 2, 2019 8:55am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Pigs will fly before Gang members are sent to the Pokie for just possessing illegal firearms.
  
  33 1
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  April 2, 2019 9:57am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    They will have an excuse as are ‘special’ but law abiding citizens will be off to the Gulag because clearly they are now revolting.
    
    15 2
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    April 2, 2019 10:03am
    - sooty
      
      Yep the gang member will have his sentance concurrent, and wont matter as he’s getting done for a worse crime at the same time!
      Poor gun owner will be shafted to make an example off! Just like the people with the hate speech video!
      
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      April 2, 2019 12:46pm
  - freethinker
    
    An unintended but entirely foreseeable consequence may be the transfer of weapons for real value if the compensation is seen as effective theft of property. Another is not surrendering and just keeping quiet.
    
    7 0
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    April 2, 2019 12:46pm
WaveyDavey

So David, given the knee-jerk actions of the government, the weapons ban, the proposed hate-speech legislation, the entrenchment of left and right into their respective ghettos… Do you still say that the Chch shooter has failed in his stated aims?
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April 2, 2019 8:56am
- the deity formerly known as nigel6888
  
  Very good points WD. This country is fucked if we let this crap carry on.
  
  Hopefully all the new kiwis – the Philippinos, the Chinese, the Jarpies etc start voting for why they left their shitholes to come here. Time for a real centre-right party, not the more competent administrators of labour policy that National represent.
  
  Cudos to David Seymour, the only principled member of Parliament we have left.
  
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  April 2, 2019 6:22pm
mikenmildagain

Happy International Children’s Book Day, everyone. Also celebrating World Autism Awareness Day, so reading someone you love a children’s book about autism might be a nice thing to do today.
9 12
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April 2, 2019 9:00am
- MCos
  
  All you need to know in life is that the wheels on the bus go round and round.
  
  9 2
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  April 2, 2019 9:28am
  - Odakyu-sen
    
    Aren’t the wheels falling off the bus?
    
    12 3
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    April 2, 2019 9:57am
    - Rachael Membery
      
      Especially in Wellington by all accounts.
      
      11 1
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      April 2, 2019 11:06am
    - freethinker
      
      Don’t confuse a Bus which is a perfectly practical and valuable vehicle with the COLL which is closer to a one wheeled wagon pulled by a 3 hump camel whose driver (Cindy/Winston) sit facing backwards to claim the only camel with reverse gear.
      
      8 1
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      April 2, 2019 12:50pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018680885/graeme-simsion-unusual-path-to-becoming-a-best-selling-author
  
  2 1
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  April 2, 2019 9:29am
Maggie Pie

We just got the news that Mick Jagger will be having heart surgery in a New York hospital this week for a valve replacement.
Just in case any body here is intrested?
7 6
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April 2, 2019 9:04am
- krazykiwi
  
  I hope they play “Start Me Up” in the recovery ward.
  
  27 2
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  April 2, 2019 9:24am
- MrTips
  
  Something tells me the Little Red Rooster’s gone quiet. Are they going to Start Him Up with the Jumping Jack Flash before he Paints it Black in the Black Limosine?
  
  14 3
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  April 2, 2019 9:28am
  - DigNap15
    
    I hope he makes it.
    Mick has been a legend for years.
    
    13 5
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    April 2, 2019 10:24am
- Rachael Membery
  
  Not a pig valve I hope.
  
  7 3
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  April 2, 2019 9:44am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hopefully it’s just an one-off, not a nineteenth nervous breakdown or anything like that.
  
  8 7
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  April 2, 2019 9:44am
- waikatogirl
  
  Heard that Maggie. The doctors are predicting a full recovery.
  The world wouldn’t be the same without Mick!
  
  9 3
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  April 2, 2019 9:56am
slightlyrighty

This push for Hate Speech legislation is a massive mistake.

Hate is a Cancer in any society, but any Cancer is best cured by early detection.

By driving unpopular opinion underground, we have less chance of identifying potential threats. One simply cannot legislate away hateful feelings. We must debate dangerous ideas. This is the central failing of the academic left who would deny dissent to be heard in the pursuit of the greater truth.

That this government seeks to make this a law is dangerous and must be fought. Jordan Peterson has said that the problem with hate speech provisions is that they are controlled by the very last people you would want doing so, and I tend to agree.

Lack of debate and an inability to see the opposing point of view leads to absolutism.
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April 2, 2019 9:24am
- Rachael Membery
  
  I don’t agree that it is necessarily unpopular. Seems to be open season on white folk.
  
  19 2
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  April 2, 2019 9:43am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    And yet I think it reflects more on the haters, and we know that any laws will not apply to them, shall we all carry dna cards around with us so we can say whether or not we are entitled to have an opinion?
    
    I already know that my heritage would preclude that, if that was the case.
    
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    April 2, 2019 10:15am
- waikatogirl
  
  Shame on those imposing censorship of thoughts and ideas. Promote more speech, not less!! ?
  
  11 3
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  April 2, 2019 9:59am
- Odakyu-sen
  
  What is “hate speech” and who decides?
  
  14 1
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  April 2, 2019 10:21am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Well, that’s a typically inane Peterson saying (if quoted accurately). The other side of that coin would be that there is no problem with hate specch provisions if the ‘right’ people contol them.
  
  3 23
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  April 2, 2019 10:30am
  - sooty
    
    I think he means you!
    
    8 1
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    April 2, 2019 12:40pm
  - Odakyu-sen
    
    mikenmildagain,
    
    Do you think you are qualified to decide what is “hate speech” and what is not?
    
    What do you think appropriate qualifications would be?
    
    11 1
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    April 2, 2019 1:07pm
Happychappy

Acting Prime Minister Winston Peter’s says the Governments gun buy back program could cost $100 million more than had previously been expected.
Peter’s said NZ had been “pretty lax ” and ” pretty slack ” about gun laws in the past but forgot to include his own party in this.
https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/385666/mps-from-across-the-political-divide-previously-stymied-gun-control
19 2
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April 2, 2019 9:55am
- Rachael Membery
  
  Can they ever get any costings right when they go off half cocked?
  
  9 2
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  April 2, 2019 11:09am
  - sooty
    
    Sorry nurses
    There goes your pay rise!
    
    8 0
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    April 2, 2019 12:39pm
Ross12

A good laugh for the day. This is a cut and paste of a comment on a Brexit thread on another blog.

“Oxford University researchers have discovered the densest element yet known to science.
The new element, Governmentium (symbol=Gv), has one neutron, 25 assistant neutrons, 88 deputy neutrons and 198 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312.
These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called pillocks.
Since Governmentium has no electrons, it is inert. However, it can be detected, because it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact.
A tiny amount of Governmentium can cause a reaction that would normally take less than a second, to take from 4 days to 4 years to complete.
Governmentium has a normal half-life of 2 to 6 years.
It does not decay, but instead undergoes a reorganisation in which a portion of the assistant neutrons and deputy neutrons exchange places.
In fact, Governmentium’s mass will actually increase over time, since each reorganisation will cause more morons to become neutrons, forming isodopes.
This characteristic of moron promotion leads some scientists to believe that Governmentium is formed whenever morons reach a critical concentration.
This hypothetical quantity is referred to as a critical morass.
When catalysed with money, Governmentium becomes Administratium (symbol=Ad), an element that radiates just as much energy as Governmentium, since it has half as many pillocks but twice as many morons.”
28 1
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April 2, 2019 9:55am
KevO'Brien

For those of us struggling to keep up with all the political/sociological jargon;

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2019/03/30/western-culture-has-died-a-politically-correct-death/

I find it incredible how truth has been turned upside down and so quickly. Is this the beginning of the very situation as promised in the Bible? This inversion of truth is mentioned there and it was hard to imagine but now it is confronting us.
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April 2, 2019 9:57am
- dave_c_
  
  I read this also – this man has my respect, in that he calls a spade a spade, and his observations about how things evolve are based on real time observation, and the absolute decay of western civilisation.
  
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  April 2, 2019 11:14am
MrTips

All this focus on hate speech is crap. Its like the homosexuals did to subvert the word “gay”.

Hate is not a bad thing: it is a normal genuine emotion. I hate the actions of Catholic priests who rape altar boys. I hate the actions of Bishops, and the current Pope, to cover all that up.

I hate the unthinking, uncritical fawning of the media over Ardern. I hate the way JLR thinks he has anything to offer NZ politics. I hate the Euthanasia bill advanced by Seymour.

But do I hate any of those people? Of course not. I don’t even know them.

What we have now is a society that is being indoctrinated to separate hate from right reason. Without right reason you end up with Brenton Tarrant, Anders Brevik and Liberace. Unfettered emotion that can’t articulate a genuine distaste and right loathing for things that offer nothing positive.

So don’t tell me I can’t hate something. Do tell me I shouldn’t hate people.
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April 2, 2019 10:04am
- Rachael Membery
  
  Agreed, I can make up my own mind about what I do or do not like, I would have to say that I am a live and let live.
  
  I do not feel the need to embrace other cultures. Why is that so wrong?
  
  14 0
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  April 2, 2019 12:00pm
Hugh Pavletich

AUSTRALIA / SYDNEY Property prices to tumble $60,000 by 2020 … News Com Au

https://www.news.com.au/finance/real-estate/buying/property-prices-to-tumble-60000-by-2020/news-story/752a1cf5496602aab59f215b9cf3bd4b

House prices have been falling sharply, but the market is a long way from rock bottom. Experts have tipped a huge tumbled is expected by 2020. … read more via hyperlink above …
.
.
Read more via … http://www.macrobusiness.com.au
6 20
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April 2, 2019 10:04am
- Odakyu-sen
  
  From the real estate agent’s perspective, would this be considered hate speech?
  
  10 0
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  April 2, 2019 1:12pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  Surely coming to NZ too. I doubt the FinMin is going to like the next 6 months.
  
  Not very encouraging for developers and KiwiStuffUp.
  
  2 0
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  April 2, 2019 1:46pm
rangitoto

I see Erdogan’s AKP lost in the big cities local elections. The CHP winning in Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir.
18 0
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April 2, 2019 10:59am
- Rachael Membery
  
  Istanbul is apparently meant to be indicative.
  
  9 1
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  April 2, 2019 11:19am
Rodney Randall

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/DLM225513.html

New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990

14 – Freedom of expression

Everyone has the right to freedom of expression, including the freedom to seek, receive, and impart information and opinions of any kind in any form.

Is Section 14 on life support?
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April 2, 2019 11:12am
- fernglas
  
  The Bill of Rights Act provisions are subject to “justified limitations”. That proviso has yet to stop legislation which offends against the Act from being passed.
  
  4 0
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  April 2, 2019 11:46am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    True. And a good example would be Section 14 not overriding defamation laws.
    
    3 7
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    April 2, 2019 11:52am
DigNap15

That greasy piece of slime Cullen
Got paid $84,000 for the CGT
Disgusting
24 2
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April 2, 2019 11:19am
- sooty
  
  What about the other members of his group and the other working groups pay, have they had a pay rise?
  
  7 0
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  April 2, 2019 11:48am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Not on minimum wage.
    
    4 1
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    April 2, 2019 11:57am
Happychappy

I thought Labour didn’t like rich pricks, well they certainly go out their way in creating them.
https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/111711459/tax-working-group-chairs-pay-topped-84000-before-extension-was-revealed
Not bad for part time work.?
21 1
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April 2, 2019 11:21am
- mark15
  
  Are they like Napier City Councils’ $700 chairs?
  
  6 0
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  April 2, 2019 12:14pm
Bill felt

Cindy is in politics to eradicate child poverty. I have not seen a COL policy that will make a difference, except for those that worsen child poverty.

Should she be held to account?
33 2
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April 2, 2019 11:27am
- Tall Man
  
  By who?
  
  The media?
  
  Her own party?
  
  The coalition partners?
  
  The labour voters?
  
  All the above want a left wing oligarchy and the clown in charge, “what’s in it for wynston” and the pr girl are handing it them on a plate.
  
  “Outcomes” are irrelevant hence the dumping of measurements but “ideology” is the ideal.
  
  21 2
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  April 2, 2019 11:46am
  - sooty
    
    Feelz, Labour are expert at the feelz!
    Everywhere, does it feel good, yep! Lets do it!
    
    9 0
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    April 2, 2019 12:36pm
    - Rachael Membery
      
      Doesn’t feel good to me.
      
      4 0
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      April 2, 2019 2:31pm
- alien
  
  Cheaper dr fees would be helping, but can’t think of anything else as labour have been responsible for the cost of living rising
  
  3 0
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  April 2, 2019 2:08pm
DigNap15

Maybe they’ll need the CGT money to give it to all the feral breeders who live in poverty, while watching the blue on their couch.
15 4
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April 2, 2019 11:32am
John Warren

I’m pleased to see that, as the hysteria and navel-gazing surrounding the mosque massacre begins to subside, Ardern is getting back to her normal incompetent self. It is very encouraging to see her fuck things up – the more she does it, the less likely we are to be stuck with her* after 2020.

*I was about to type “the world’s most inept Prime Minister” right there but in fairness to Ardern I think that title actually belongs to Justin Trudeau right now.
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April 2, 2019 12:26pm
- waikatogirl
  
  JW, Do you really think the majority of the population will realise she has stuck her big foot in her mouth while in China? No, they will see the pageantry and smiles and believe she has been a star on the world stage once again.
  ?
  
  9 0
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  April 2, 2019 3:52pm
DigNap15

Thames Council does not sign Climate Change declaration.

Finally some common sense.
22 1
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April 2, 2019 12:30pm
- DigNap15
  
  The school children are crying in the streets.
  
  By all means plan future infrastructure and land sections etc on higher ground as Thames is prone to flooding.
  
  5 2
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  April 2, 2019 2:56pm
- Kabull
  
  Interesting opinion piece on Fox today: https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/joe-bastardi-climate-change-agenda-is-being-driven-by-hysteria-not-facts
  
  The author is a pioneer in extreme weather and long-range forecasting and the chief meteorologist at weatherbell.com. In his article he says:
  
  In this age of political hysteria, we must all educate ourselves on the facts – the actual science. Unfortunately, there seems to be a total lack of awareness about important issues that scientists like myself – who aren’t paid by research grants – are concerned about.
  
  Instead, climate science is being used as a political weapon, and the voices of scientists like me are being ignored or even vilified. I was under the impression that in the United States, all voices and arguments should be heard. Climate science is not settled science. If it was, why would there be a continuous flow of money to research it?
  
  Congratulations to the Thames Council for not being blinded by the climate scaremongers.
  
  11 0
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  April 2, 2019 3:40pm
Overworked

What has happened to Otago University? The snowflakes are well and truly in control.

There is shock and horror at drunk men invading a lecture. One was SO drunk he “could hardly stand”. The university is considering expelling the perps if they are found to be students:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12218511

When did this culture shift take place?
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April 2, 2019 1:08pm
freethinker

Link to NZ Herlad article on yet more Govt incompetence -Overpaid Heating Allowance https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12218512
Cant legislate effectively, don’t spot mistakes when proof reading, don’t tell Ministry of the error who should been closely following the legislation the waste $34m and even now havn’t fixed the problem. Still its only taxpayers money and the minister is Carmel septic Sepuloni.
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April 2, 2019 1:37pm
- alien
  
  its Actually $3.4 million, not 34 million.
  
  2 0
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  April 2, 2019 2:07pm
  - freethinker
    
    Thanks fat finger missed the dot.
    
    1 0
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    April 2, 2019 6:26pm
Ed Snack

I saw an excellent tweet just now: “There are so many women suddenly coming out against Joe Biden that you’d think Trump had just nominated him to the Supreme Court.” !

I also hear that Biden has a new slogan for his campaign – MAGA – Make America Grope Again.
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April 2, 2019 1:39pm
freethinker

Another NZ Herald article this time concerning lawyers –
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12218543

I am astonished that a Lawyer misleading a court is so lightly disciplined, I thought misleading the court was either Perjury or attempting to pervert the course of justice. The offending occurred over 2-3 years involving 14 clients so not a one of slip up more like a pre determined and continuing method of operation. I would like some more experience Lawyer to comment & convince me other factors mitigated the offending sufficiently to make the Law Societies action credible otherwise I continue to consider they simply cover up for their mates and so are unfit for purpose and need removing, in the name of real justice.
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April 2, 2019 1:48pm
Maggie Pie

As I just said to my partner, I honestly didn’t think wearing orthopedic shoes would help, but I stand corrected.
28 4
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April 2, 2019 1:52pm
John Warren

I don’t mean to diminish a tragedy here, but Christ, the names these poor kids were given:

…Awanuiarangi Shayelous-Jay Matenga Tapiata-Harmer, aged 19 months, and eight-month-old Wysdom Amara Francis Tony Jane Tapiata-Harmer…
15 0
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April 2, 2019 2:03pm
- Odakyu-sen
  
  Victims of funny-name syndrome?
  
  8 0
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  April 2, 2019 3:55pm
- DigNap15
  
  Yes, you could have imagined them as CEO’s or bank manager in later years.
  
  3 1
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  April 2, 2019 6:24pm
- UrbanNeocolonialist
  
  Form filling and international travel would suck with names like that.
  
  1 0
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  April 2, 2019 8:36pm
  - sooty
    
    Or even putting it on your school books!
    
    0 0
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    April 2, 2019 9:58pm
Rachael Membery

So David Seymour was just paying lip service.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12218553
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April 2, 2019 3:11pm
- alien
  
  Oh I loved it, tell the media what you are going to do then don’t get there in time to do it. Should of kept his mouth shut and just done it.
  
  7 3
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  April 2, 2019 3:18pm
  - Tall Man
    
    “Should have”.
    
    8 1
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    April 2, 2019 4:39pm
    - alien
      
      Oh, a nazi
      
      0 5
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      April 2, 2019 6:37pm
      - Rachael Membery
        
        Well meant I believe, mainly because I do it too, the English language is going to hell in a handbasket and it might be all that we have left.
        
        2 0
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        April 2, 2019 8:28pm
      - Odakyu-sen
        
        No, grammarian.
        (They go to Hell and rise again as Editors.)
        
        0 0
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        April 2, 2019 8:42pm
RW Capitalist

Just a distraction
https://gab.com/media/image/bq-5ca2ab4f57eda.jpeg
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April 2, 2019 3:52pm
Anne Glen Eden

It’s been a while – and I’ve moved cities – but I finally feel compelled to express further disgusted disbelief in the behaviour of the British Parliament/political class.

Every day it is ever more apparent the real issue is a fight for democracy itself, rather than Brexit. The politicians have thrown all ‘of the people, by the people, and for the people’ out of their democracy in entirety.

Not only do they refuse to accept the referendum result – and ‘the people’ did know what they were voting for which is to leave the EU – but ‘the people’ apparently no longer have the right to hold their MP to account for his ‘representation’ (or more lack of it) in Parliament. ‘The people’ will be represented, apparently, by who the elite choose to represent them, even where their views are diametrically opposed to local voters.

Further, every day, in every ‘democracy’ around the world, politicians are showing themselves to be an elitist group who engineer themselves into positions and proceed to force the voters in their chosen electorates into moulds the latter neither fit into nor want to. Politicians and political lobbyists/activists are ‘special’ people who supposedly ‘know better’ while the man/woman in the street is too stupid to have any say other than to engage in staged (increasingly potentially violent) street rallies.

Democracy, for all its faults, is the only successfully peaceful form of government, over time, that we’ve found. Surely, we continue to regress to political climates fomenting/fermenting the active need for revolution. And the latter is increasingly becoming apparent, always starting at the extreme fringes and growing progressively toward the centre as more and more genuine freedom and/or representation is lost.

Are all these people in power really so naive as to vacuously believe that their conviction (sincere or otherwise) of their own ‘rightness’ is sufficient to hold societies together in the face of growing totalitariansim completely divorced from and alienating voters – while accepting no responsibility at all for the inevitably violent result. As always in the past, that is put down to the dissenters, ‘extremists’, etc. which some of them undoubtedly are – but it will grow progressively into those who are not, especially as the latter polarise.
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April 2, 2019 4:08pm
- Nostradamus
  
  Anne:
  
  It’s been a while – and I’ve moved cities
  
  Did Johnboy finally manage to persuade you to join forces with him in Wainuiomata? 🙂
  
  3 1
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  April 2, 2019 5:28pm
- Steve Todd
  
  Thank you, Anne; one of the very best contributions to Kiwiblog this year.
  
  The problem is, of course, the FPP voting system used to elect the House of Commons. This is not the place to go into detail – suffice to say, British MPs are wholly unrepresentative of the British public.
  
  The answer is STV (which is better than Open Lists, which, in turn, is better than AMS (our MMP)). STV allows all voters to treat the candidates as individuals (enabling them to decide which of a party’s candidates get elected, and for those who don’t only think in terms of party, to vote for some of a party’s candidates, but not others).
  
  STV ensures that only those candidates are elected whose support is deﬁnitely enough to warrant it; if n representatives are being elected, they need to have more than a 1/(n + 1) share of the votes (otherwise known as a quota of votes).
  
  It enables surplus votes, i.e., those in excess of what a candidate needs to be elected, to be transferred to a candidate still in the contest, as it does for the votes of excluded candidates. Such transfers avoid wasted votes; this is particularly important for the viability of independent candidates, who have a chance under STV, but not under AMS or Open Lists.
  
  As we all know, different voters may attach different weights to several criteria simultaneously. For example, in the UK context, Conservative voters who want the UK to leave the EU, could rank the Conservative Euro-sceptic candidates 1 and 2, in their own order of preference, before ranking the Conservative ‘Remain’ candidates 3 and 4.
  
  STV gives proportional representation of this (and any other) opinion structure of the electorate with an accuracy dependent only on the number of representatives simultaneously elected.
  
  STV gives freedom of choice to voters and ensures, as far as possible, that the choice is satisfied, and not distorted or frustrated.
  
  Unfortunately, that is why the UK’s FPP-entrenched MPs will never allow themselves to be subjected to this method of election, despite, in the past, having thought it suitable for Ireland, Malta, and Northern Ireland.
  
  Consequently, Britons will continue to be grossly misrepresented by their elected “betters” for many years to come.
  
  It’s all quite sad really.
  
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  April 2, 2019 7:04pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  Welcome back. Excellent and thoughtful as usual.
  
  2 0
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  April 2, 2019 10:08pm
RW Capitalist

Labour’s planning, management and bureaucracy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yShvgXZQBTs
1 1
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April 2, 2019 5:12pm
RW Capitalist

Labour’s economic plan?
Bernard Cribbins is a visionary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5XX9LX2es4
2 1
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April 2, 2019 5:16pm
Rachael Membery

Boys will be boys?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12218608
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April 2, 2019 6:14pm
Rachael Membery

Might even watch seven sharp tonight, the editor of the magazine who called Jacinda dumb as a plank is being interviewed.
8 1
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April 2, 2019 6:18pm
- kowtow
  
  I did , against my better judgement , it was a waste of time.
  
  For such a serious issue they gave it about 4 minutes.
  
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  April 2, 2019 7:25pm
Lee C

https://twitter.com/i/status/1109631835472957440

is hijab hate?
5 1
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April 2, 2019 6:33pm
- simpleton1
  
  She speaks well and makes good points how quickly some don the hijab, and some politicians being all talk and not walking the walk. Sure shows a better side of Iran.
  Her speech would be life threatening in Iran.
  
  3 1
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  April 2, 2019 8:12pm
ex-golfer

Times must be tough in the MacPherson household.

Simon having to defend the stuff up which saw $3.4 million paid in Winter Energy Payments to people that were not eligible:
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/25-000-people-wrong-received-winter-energy-payment/

And Liz, still having to work through the disaster that was the 2017 Census, has to release figures showing this Government is pretty poor on child poverty. No doubt she will be getting an attitude re-adjustment session from the Minister before long (“You WILL NOT release figures that make us look bad!!!!!”).

One wonders what the two of them discuss at night.
9 1
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April 2, 2019 6:38pm
- krazykiwi
  
  Shane Jones: “With a $3 billion fund, there is always
  going to be a bit of bump and grind“.
  
  Is he a creep or what?!?
  
  19:24
  
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  April 2, 2019 7:24pm
  - Rachael Membery
    
    They certainly hold themselves to a lower standard than they held National to,
    
    4 0
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    April 2, 2019 8:36pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  General principles of fairness of law stop the govt from trying to claim the unintended payment back–it’s probably long gone.
  The Opposition argument is against the sloppy govt leading to that unnecessary spending.
  
  1 0
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  April 2, 2019 10:03pm
Humble Capitalist

$3.4 million dollar unauthorised payments ‘a small error’ according to Robertson. Will anyone get the sack like they would in the real world?
11 1
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April 2, 2019 7:05pm
- ex-golfer
  
  Its impossible to get the sack in the public service.
  No one ever takes responsibility for errors – they just find a way to blame external factors.
  Generally those that make errors are promoted!
  
  8 0
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  April 2, 2019 7:25pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  A likely law drafting misunderstanding. Wait till they attempt a CGT and the mess of law that will engender. I would expect 2-5cm when printed of new incomprehensible tax law.
  
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  April 2, 2019 9:56pm
Happychappy

Those that thought Twyford was inept at the portfolio on housing can now see they were right but will the PM.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/04/it-s-a-fail-government-forced-to-buy-kiwibuild-houses-that-weren-t-selling.html
It looks like property developers have finally achieved corporate welfare.
9 0
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April 2, 2019 7:09pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  The Kiwi Commiechick is aiming to bring all new housing development under State control. This COL is more devious and pervasive than appears on the surface.
  
  2 1
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  April 2, 2019 9:51pm
wreck1080

DPF said…

“The picture of her (Ardern) in Christchurch wearing a headscarf looking devastated is a powerful iconic image. I think Ardern has been near perfect in her response to the tragedy.”

I wonder how he reconciles that with this view from an actual female muslim…

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12218679

“Iranian women’s rights activist says NZ hijab display after Christchurch shooting is ‘heartbreaking”
Alinejad, who has lived in self-imposed exile since 2009 and received death threats for her campaigning against Iran’s obligatory wearing of headscarves
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April 2, 2019 8:35pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  Ardern has jumped a religious barrier as a cultural gesture.
  
  Her clampdown on the use of Tarrant’s name is unlawful outside her limited scope of personal authority. Her Office rights do not over ride the Bill of Rights. Ardern does not rule.
  
  4 0
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  April 2, 2019 9:48pm
Suze Wainwright

Has anyone stopped to consider just how racist it is to demand the gangs hand their weapons back?
Thought not…
Personally, I think some Treaty rights have definitely been trampled over in the name of white man’s justice!
6 0
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April 2, 2019 9:22pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  Guns being a taonga and all, you mean?
  
  2 0
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  April 2, 2019 9:47pm
- alien
  
  Right because the only gangs in nz are Maori gangs. Your post boarders on racism
  
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  April 3, 2019 12:07am
Rob2

Speaking to Sky News this morning, Peters called Anning: “four-flushing, jingoistic moron, but you already know that in Australia.”

“He is a national, absolute, democratic aberration. We all know why he’s there. He’s there by pure accident..

“It means you have to clean up your political system to avoid that sort of person making it into politics.”

———————————————
Oh dear, oh dear

Pot Kettle Black.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12218693

“lol” “lol”
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April 3, 2019 6:33am

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