General Debate 30 March 2019

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fernglas

Great Britain, the laughing stock of Europe
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March 30, 2019 8:01am
- Paulus Gnome
  
  ‘Great Britain, the laughing stock of Europe’
  
  Europe, forgetting their history that allows them to humiliate Great Britain
  
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  March 30, 2019 11:55am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    And that Britain was once Great.
    
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    March 30, 2019 8:07pm
Pete George

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
It looks like Whale Oil is up for sale.

Stuff on Tuesday: Whale Oil company previously owned by Cameron Slater goes into liquidation

The company that owned the controversial blog Whale Oil has been put into liquidation.

Social Media Consultants Limited, which was previously owned by Cameron Slater, was put into voluntary liquidation on Monday, by his wife and sole shareholder Juana Mary Atkins.

Slater vacated as a shareholder of the company in February. Another company was set up called Wobh Ltd. under Atkins’ name at the same time.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/111560086/whale-oil-company-previously-owned-by-cameron-slater-goes-into-liquidation

NZ Herald yesterday: Whale Oil company owes more than $670,000 – liquidator

A company that until recently owned the Whale Oil blog owes creditors at least $670,986, liquidator Victoria Toon of Corporate Restructuring says in her first report.

Social Media Consultants was put into voluntary liquidation on Monday.

Whale Oil founder Cameron Slater owned Social Media Consultants until last month, when he transferred his shares to his wife Juana Atkins.

At the same time, a new company was set up called Wobh Ltd, with Atkins as the sole shareholder, on February 13.

In her report, Toon – who could not be immediately reached for comment – says Social Media Consultants has $856 cash in the bank.

“The value of the business lies in the brand “Whale Oil”, the associated blog and the domain name [website address],” she writes.

However, it is not clear at this point whether Social Media Consultants or the new Wobh Ltd own any intangibles.

They were not listed on Social Media Consultants financial records, and were transferred to other companies prior to the liquidation (Atkins is also now the sole shareholder in a number of other companies set up by the couple, including Frog Rock Management and The Whale Meat Company).

Toon says she has been advised that the blog is being maintained by volunteers in the interim. It has more than 300 paid subscribers, she says.

The liquidator says she has already fielded several offers for the blog.

However, ownership and valuation issues have to be resolved before the site can be sold, she says.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12217589
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March 30, 2019 8:08am
- Pete George
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  First liquidator’s report: https://app.companiesoffice.govt.nz/companies/app/service/services/documents/95A682919D21FCEFD09A847AAF0F4FC1
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:10am
  - big bruv
    
    Pete George
    Were you bullied a lot at school?
    
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    March 30, 2019 12:17pm
    - Tony Stuart
      
      Quite so big bruv. Pete seems to be revelling in Slater’s demise, while all the while pretending to be a neutral observer.
      
      We know that Pete got caught up the the crossfire of legislation, and it would be only human to not be feeling like karma has come. He would get more respect if he was honest about his feelings about Slater et al.
      
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      March 30, 2019 2:15pm
      - Pete George
        
        Are you suggesting I’ve been dishonest?
        
        Do you think Whale Oil has been honest about all this? Or does that not matter to you, you’d rather just take uninformed shots?
        
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        March 30, 2019 3:20pm
    - Tall Man
      
      I was bullied at school. I was bullied on the way to and on the way home.
      
      As the only white boy in the street and suburb…well, you can work it out.
      
      Just like the “boy named Sue”. I survived and have done well.
      
      Should I thank them…fuck no, I’ll …. ….. …. ……. heads in.
      
      Apolodgies to the mods but you need to look outside the box….
      
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      March 30, 2019 10:12pm
- JibberJabber
  
  Why would anyone want to buy that poisoned chalice?
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:16am
  - DigNap15
    
    It had paid subscribers
    And it has a much higher Akexa rating than many other NZ blogs.
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:01am
    - Pete George
      
      Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
      You mean Alexa. Can that be taken seriously? Do you really think there was a huge surge in interest in WO in September last year?
      
      See https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/whaleoil.co.nz
      
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      March 30, 2019 9:11am
      - sooty
        
        Jealousy, is that the new hate speech?
        Is it because his is bigger than yours?
        
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        March 30, 2019 10:01am
  - Paulus Gnome
    
    The polished turd had already gone
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:05am
  - peterwn
    
    It is indeed a poisoned chalice. Cam and Juana (aka ‘SB’) have effectively outsmarted the liquidator on this. AFAIK the liquidator would have a strong claim to claw back the whaleoil.co.nz name from WOBH Ltd since Social Media Consultants alienated an asset while apparently being insolvent.
    However whaleoil.nz has been registered via a Melbourne registry under the name ‘Whaleoil Media’ at the Slaters’ address.
    Now all whaleoil.xxx.nz registrants would have each had a ‘hold’ on the whaleoil.nz name when NZ ‘second level’ names were made available, but the only .nz one registered was whaleoil.co.nz so the Slaters were able to release the ‘hold’ on whaleoil.nz then register it. If someone had registered (say) whaleoil.net.nz that someone would also have had a ‘hold’ on whaleoil.nz.
    Now the liquidator of Social Media Consultants could argue the ‘hold’ on whaleoil.nz was property and could form part of the liquidation asset, but would be faced with taking legal action in both NZ and Oz. The liquidator may consider it is not worth the effort.
    Because Juana and co could easily switch the site to whaleoil.nz , the name http://www.whaleoil.co.nz would have little value, the price being what someone would pay for it out of spite and then whoever purchased it would have to meet the costs of going to court to get the name transferred. Matt Bloomfield might be interested but whether his grudge is big enough is another matter.
    
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    March 30, 2019 10:55am
  - Tall Man
    
    I’d give it a go, just to get a “free speech” zone.
    
    How much?
    
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    March 30, 2019 10:16pm
- All_on_Red
  
  We should have a whip round and buy it.
  It will probably be cheap.
  Then give it back to Juana
  That’ll be bound to annoy those who seem to be far far too happy at Whaleoils demise…
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:18am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    Great idea. Post your bank account details and I’ll consider donating up to 10 cents.
    
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    March 30, 2019 8:44am
    - Tall Man
      
      10 cents, ah that’s right…when it’s your own money lefties are a little tight.
      
      Just for a moment, pretend you’re a real lefty and pretend that you have your hands in the public purse…hang on, I think they already do…
      
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      March 30, 2019 10:05am
  - Pete George
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    From the liquidator’s report:
    
    The liquidator has already received several offers to purchase the blog. All expressions of interest are welcome
    
    But there are a number of legal issues to clarify.
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:52am
    - srylands
      
      Why are you so engrossed with the detail of someone’s misfortune on a sunny Saturday?
      
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      March 30, 2019 10:19am
    - Paul Marsden
      
      The place has become far bigger than Slater and in my view, will continue to grow. Some very interesting discourse there along with some, not so much
      
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      March 30, 2019 10:24am
  - niggly
    
    Well said AoR, and sure whilst Cam’s done clearly some questionable and objectionable stuff at times (which I don’t necessarily agree with), I just can’t believe the display of hypocrisy, rule changing and double standards that his opponents like for example the ones embedded in “far-left” activist-political/legal circles are using to take him down with.
    
    Something stinks and it ain’t WO …
    
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    March 30, 2019 10:48am
- Awww C-mon
  
  .
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:19am
  - sooty
    
    HA, HAAA, HAA.
    Looked it up and not found!
    
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    March 30, 2019 10:04am
    - Awww C-mon
      
      I think it got taken down, really not work seeing mate. It was all kinds of nasty wrapped up in gimp suits and dorsal fins… then there was the whale
      
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      March 30, 2019 10:25am
- SGA
  
  Sheesh, Pete. I’ve only every looked at Whale Oil occasionally, and I doubt Cameron Slater cared very much about the physical, financial, or personal toll his blog placed on his targets. That said, your posts give the air of a smug vulture.
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:41am
  - Pete George
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    Reporting the facts – something that Whale Oil has not done. I haven’t seen any disclosure there yet, and I think that (especially) subscribers should be aware of what is going on.
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:03am
    - SGA
      
      In gloriously gratuitous detail, Pete. Don’t be so coy 🙂
      
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      March 30, 2019 9:17am
    - srylands
      
      Don’t you have your own blog?
      
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      March 30, 2019 10:20am
    - Rodney Randall
      
      Pete George: Kicking a man when he is down and out (post stroke)
      
      The Whaleoil blog will live on because it runs counter to the Neo – Marxist MSM ‘newspeak’ organs.
      
      Long live Whaleoil and Kiwiblog.
      
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      March 30, 2019 11:24am
      - Rachael Membery
        
        The 300 subscribers become shareholders?
        
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        March 30, 2019 12:26pm
  - pdm
    
    A fellow blogger putting the boot in on a 3rd parties blog.
    
    Unseemly at best.
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:15am
  - David Garrett
    
    SGA: “a smug vulture”…perfectly put…
    
    and I also haven’t visited Whale Oil regularly for ages…but I take no pleasure in Cameron’s troubles.
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:49am
    - Tall Man
      
      Ditto.
      
      We need more right wing blogs not less.
      
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      March 30, 2019 10:07am
- mjw
  
  I wonder what the legal status of the blog is? If it operates separately from the company, and has a subscriber base, does it therefore get caught under sole trader or partnership legislation? And does that create a liability for the individuals who appear to be the sole traders or partners?
  
  I were the shareholder, I would be returning the blog to ownership of the company tout suite. But perhaps somebody with more expertise than me can comment on this point …
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:44am
  - Pete George
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    I don’t have expertise on this apart from being able to report facts.
    
    13 February 2019
    – new company, director and shareholder for MADAS 114 Limited Howard Karl Taylor, Accountant
    
    22 February 2019
    – Cameron Slater ceased shareholder of Social Media Consultants Limited (Juana Atkins now sole shareholder)
    
    25 February 2019
    – registration of website whaleoil.co.nz changed from Social Media Consultants Limited to WOBH Limited
    – company name changed from MADAS 114 Limited to WOBH Limited
    – Whale Oil website announces “Ongoing medical tests following Cam’s stroke have shown that he remains severely incapacitated and consequently is unable to work…This has led Cam to make the very difficult decision to declare bankruptcy”
    
    27 February 2019
    – Cameron Slater files for bankruptcy
    
    5 March 2019
    – Juana Mary Atkins appointed new director of WOBH Limited
    
    24 March 2019
    – new shareholder of WOBH Limited: Juana Mary Atkins
    – removed shareholder of WOBH Limited: Howard Karl Taylor
    
    25 March 2019
    – liquidator appointed to Social Media Consultants Limited
    
    From the liquidator’s report:
    
    The value of the business lies in the brand ‘Whale Oil’, the associated blog and the domain name. We are yet to ascertain the ownership of these intangible assets which are not listed on the company’s financial records. prior to liquidation, these assets were transferred to new companies. The liquidator has been advised this was done to preserve the value of the blog until ownership and valuation issues could be settled.
    
    Also:
    
    It is a priority of the liquidator to obtain a legal opinion on the ability to sell the blog which contains personal information that may be subject to legal proceedings in the future.
    
    This raises an interesting question about the information stored with any personal blog (or blog that has been a personal blog).
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:50am
    - srylands
      
      Are you going to do this all day?
      
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      March 30, 2019 10:23am
      - sooty
        
        The Pete Pavelich!
        
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        March 30, 2019 12:11pm
All_on_Red

It had to happen
Hitler finds out the Mueller investigation is over
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7cVsmuxOj28
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March 30, 2019 8:21am
- Justitia
  
  Love it, a great start to the day!
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:32am
- kowtow
  
  Thanks for that , needed a laugh . Especially when the media are touting the gangs are all things bright and beautiful and won’t hand in their guns , and Steven Demetre Georgiou aka Cat Stevens , aka Yusef Islam , who agreed Salman Rushdie should be killed is the next best thing to Mother Teresa …….
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:41am
  - David Garrett
    
    kowtow: Has someone confronted the peaceful one with his support of the fatwa against Rushdie??
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:55am
    - John Warren
      
      Many times. He has a glib reply about being taken out of context.
      
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      March 30, 2019 9:58am
      - kowtow
        
        It’s on you tube , easy to find. Extraordinary .
        
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        March 30, 2019 10:13am
- John Warren
  
  Brilliant.
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:57am
- lastmanstanding
  
  Brilliant and soooooo true. LOL. Its so good watching CNN et al getting their knickers in a twist trying desperately to salvage their shattered reputation.
  
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  March 30, 2019 10:07am
- rightoverlabour
  
  Brilliant!
  
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  March 30, 2019 11:15am
G152

So much promise down the tubes.
Sad
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March 30, 2019 8:21am
Paulus

I cannot understand that if we listen to Grant Robertson and his sycophant economists as the economy is bouncing along well why would you commit political suicide with all these new taxes, particularly the Capital Gains Tax and Death Duties attached ?
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March 30, 2019 8:29am
Rob2

NZ’s greatest Rugby Leader!
(According to Stuff SLG reporter)

In the aftermath of the country’s darkest day, Williams had found his voice, using his unique platform as an All Black and as a Muslim, to speak of faith, dignity, inclusiveness and the power to change as a nation.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111586534/after-the-christchurch-mosque-shootings-sonny-bill-williams-uses-his-platform-for-change

What a self promoting piece of fluff from and equally stupid child reporter.
How sad is the headline. Not long ago that was McCaw and before that Lomu.FFS
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March 30, 2019 8:33am
- Scott
  
  Rob2 – nothing wrong with Ritchie!
  Jonah Lomu divides opinion. Some think he was an all time great, some watched him in action playing on the left wing for the Hurricanes where in my opinion he stood out for all the wrong reasons.
  
  Regarding SBW this is the problem. It was terrible what happened in Christchurch. However that does not mean change our culture and change our entire way of life for the comfort of a small minority. Those who choose to come here need to assimilate to our way of life.
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:00am
- kowtow
  
  Call me a cynic , but the tv media didn’t provide any wide angle shots of the memorial at Eden Park .
  
  My witchsmeller pursuivant instincts tell me that there wasn’t much of a turn out there.
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:02am
  - Michael Rodent
    
    Less than 400 I hear – when we drove around the Eden Park area just before lunch yesterday (having to avoid all the road blocks) there would have been more Police and security than attendees.
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:13am
  - pdm
    
    There would have been more but leading NIMBY Helen Clark wouldn’t let them into the ground.
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:18am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Amazing that they could get resource consent when they couldn’t for the incubator launch.
    
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    March 30, 2019 12:42pm
Rob2

Ah its Saturday a day of rest for some.

Moderation is having a union go slow.

As you were Sargent.
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March 30, 2019 8:35am
-D

Jacinda has done a good job of calming the nation . But I hope now her closest advisors will counsel her to step out of the limelight and get back to running the country.
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March 30, 2019 8:36am
- alien
  
  Did she ever run it before or is she simply doing what prime minister Winston and Helen Clark tell her what to do.
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:59am
- kowtow
  
  Not so sure. She’s doing what she does best , image. Behind the scenes and not so behind the scenes there’s a massive knee jerk going on . Gun law changes e.g. but many more changes likely to come yet , perhaps in relation to free speech etc.
  
  Not exactly on the Cindy topic but related .A long read but a good one.
  
  https://www.nzcpr.com/the-politicisation-of-a-tragedy/#more-28922
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:17am
  - Tall Man
    
    Sleep? My god, she and Karl are on the money.
    
    When will sanity return?
    
    When will we be free again to criticise our sainted pm without interference from moderators.
    
    We have taken a giant leap from not permitting any criticisms of islam to not permitting satire and criticism of the annointed…..
    
    A “moderator” said yesterday that the situation in Brunei deserved “debate”.
    
    As I said yesterday, try that in Brunei and see what you get.
    
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    March 30, 2019 10:19am
    - sooty
      
      Stoned out off your wee mind!
      Is what you get.
      
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      March 30, 2019 12:14pm
      - Tall Man
        
        Oh dear, what a punny fellow you are 😉
        
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        March 30, 2019 1:42pm
      - waikatogirl
        
        Bring back holysheet’s jokes!
        
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        March 30, 2019 6:29pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Just a publicity junkie. Jacinda is on the World stage and she knows it. All over Fox, CNN, Al Jazeera, Wash Post and others. It is all about United Nations. Jacinda cares about Jacinda
  
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  March 30, 2019 10:31am
sooty

What’s Cindy going to do first when she gets back from her overnight trip to China, after feeding the baby?
Will she go back to work or will she visit a kindy?
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March 30, 2019 8:37am
- softail 1450
  
  Sooty ,she can do both by gathering her caucus around herself ….
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:51am
  - alien
    
    That’s not fair, many in kindy are for more intelligent than her caucus
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:00am
    - Rob2
      
      😆 😆 😆
      
      Many a true word spoken in jest then.
      
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      March 30, 2019 9:18am
      - sooty
        
        She has gathered together some right plonkers!
        
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        March 30, 2019 10:09am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Like a cloak?
    
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    March 30, 2019 12:46pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  Does travelling to China count as work?
  Come to think of it – how much work do you think a prime minister should do, and which bits of official travel, visits around he country, etc, do you count as ‘work’?
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:53am
  - Komata
    
    MM@0853
    
    It certainly counts as ‘work’ for the RNZAF aircrew and support staff involved in the exercise; those who are ignored so that the PM can look good.
    
    BTW: So far no-one in the media has commented on the carbon footprint this little junket will have, which begs the question: Is James Shaw going as well?
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:33am
    - John Warren
      
      Oh, he would travel separately, to ensure maximum hypocrisy.
      
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      March 30, 2019 10:00am
      - sooty
        
        Yep! First class on some airline!
        No slumming it on our airforce for our James!
        The other question is, which journilists are going to provide the coverage on the overnighter?
        Will it be too much for Barry Soper, after all he must be as old as Whinney and will he fall asleep?
        
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        March 30, 2019 10:16am
    - alien
      
      From the article I read she is flying commercial.
      
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      March 30, 2019 10:17am
      - Tall Man
        
        Down the back near the dunnies?
        
        Without a full compliment of adorers, maybe a kapa haka group thrown in for the neccessary cultural virtue signalling?
        
        Just for interest’s sake, I wonder which airline is collecting the vast sum this journey will cost…..
        
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        March 30, 2019 10:23am
    - srylands
      
      I would be surprised if she is flying on the 757 to China. It does not have the range so would need to stop in Guam to refuel.
      
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      March 30, 2019 10:32am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Whenuapai has been very busy lately – night and day
      
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      March 30, 2019 10:33am
    - Paulus
      
      Will the 767 make it to Beijing – where does it have to fuel ?
      
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      March 30, 2019 2:52pm
      - srylands
        
        The airforce does not have a 767
        
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        March 30, 2019 4:05pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Boeing 757 – 200. It refuels at secret locations that I can’t tell you otherwise …..
        
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        March 30, 2019 4:07pm
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  QT starts again on Tuesday.
  No doubt the Nats will go easy on her because she’s had such a stressful time.
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:12am
  - Komata
    
    Captain @0912:
    
    Hopefully not, ‘cos if the boot was on the other foot…
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:35am
    - sooty
      
      Will Cindy be back by then?
      
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      March 30, 2019 10:17am
      - Tall Man
        
        Does it make any difference?
        
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        March 30, 2019 10:27am
      - waikatogirl
        
        Will Winston be awake? ?
        
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        March 30, 2019 10:39am
      - Tony Stuart
        
        Yes; she’ll be at Parliament, straight off the plane from China.
        
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        March 30, 2019 2:50pm
      - sooty
        
        Who cares?
        
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        March 30, 2019 2:54pm
  - Tall Man
    
    They’ve probably been forced to install a couple of “moderators” just to ensure there are no “nasty tricky” questions and “asides” questioning a certain pm’s inabilities………
    
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    March 30, 2019 10:26am
  - alien
    
    bridges usually does go easy on her. gets to where she is started to get angry and he stops or pulls back, useless
    
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    March 30, 2019 12:35pm
    - Tall Man
      
      Again, that’s a bit harsh.
      
      It’s the same problem for a tall man.
      
      When a weedy little tosser takes a swing and you respond in kind….you become the bad guy…every time.
      
      Simon is giving her rope. This is a 3 year process, unless “what’s in it for wynston” packs a sad so slowly slowly catchy monkey.
      
      And for the moderators, I did not call her a monkey…no more than Gareth referred to her as lipstick or the pig….
      
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      March 30, 2019 1:46pm
- Paulus
  
  When Prince William gets here in April we are going to have to watch her hug the limelight all over again.
  So get used to it – there is nothing else here to watch or listen to but her.
  If the Election takes place in 2020 (on the 2013 Census) she will win – hands down as they say.
  
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  March 30, 2019 10:43am
  - sooty
    
    That’s the Labour way!
    All hands down.
    You Wood’n read about it.
    Wood you.
    Wood she run again, or bail?
    
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    March 30, 2019 12:20pm
    - freethinker
      
      I Wood hope that we will read about it in due course if there was a certain case last week in the North Shore District Course, do they sell pies in the Court Cafe?
      
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      March 30, 2019 12:53pm
  - alien
    
    why will she win? From the past few weeks? seems to be a lot of bad feelings to the way she has acted the past few weeks. Chances are the next election will be taking place with an economy that has tanked. And I tend to think looking at NZ first and Greens it will be a slug out between labour and National to rule without any partners.
    
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    March 30, 2019 12:38pm
  - Rachael Membery
    
    He is coming so far for how long?
    
    Jacinda should say no thanks to the monarchy, and I am a monarchist.
    
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    March 30, 2019 8:18pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  I thought she was back? Appeared in Christchurch yesterday. Don’t tell me she has gone back to China and only came home to listen to Cat Stevens
  
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  March 30, 2019 2:26pm
the deity formerly known as nigel6888

this is a shame. While I think Cam jumped the shark hard and often on English, JLR, and NZFirst.

WOBH has been an incredible valuable voice in NZ politics holding the ridiculous to account, and hewing to a pretty solid set of centre-right principles.

Problem is when the visionary boss starts out as guerilla media, and doesn’t have the discipline, skills or frankly financial resources, to put more professional management around the business – it slipped badly when Pete moved on. It would be also fair to say than no political operator/commentator in NZ has had more people heavily invested in trying to destroy him – from trap set ups, to straight hacking, and character assassination.

That said, their moderation process is rock solid, its just they left it too late to go “legit”
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March 30, 2019 8:40am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  On the other side of the coin, there is an inevitable sense of karma in seeing the sheer nastiness he displayed so often blowing back on him and his whole life.
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:55am
  - Nukuleka
    
    This comment says more about your own toxicity than it does about Slater or anyone else. How about you remove the mote in your own eye before trying to gauge the mote out of someone else’s.
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:23am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      That’s so cute. I appreciate your stand for fairness and decency, particularly in defence of such a noble and kind blogger as Slater.
      I look forward to seeing you defend many others who cop vicious opinions here on Kiwiblog.
      
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      March 30, 2019 10:54am
  - Tall Man
    
    Seriously…nasty?
    
    You need to clean your mirror I think.
    
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    March 30, 2019 1:48pm
- Pete George
  
  I think quite a few would say that it slipped badly when Pete Belt moved in in 2014 – that’s when the commenter purges and ‘message control’ (censorship) began.
  
  The Blomfield damage was already done by then, but taking on Colin Craig (with Belt involved) was a major misjudgement – playing legal lotto led to lawyers bills with no return.
  
  Deciding to fight and delay both those defamations while claiming to be the victim kept increasing costs and digging a hole.
  
  There were significant achievements and some good done, but too much bad that it was always going to catch up on them in the end.
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:00am
  - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
    
    Never been the same since Pete George got booted off eh?
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:30am
  - Classic Liberal
    
    I certainly left when perfectly reasonable comments were being deleted. And have been back in the last couple of weeks because important topics are being discussed, moderation is back to being sensible, and they don’t delay my comments just because I won’t put my name out there for people like Matt Nippert to use to ruin my life.
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:37am
- alien
  
  I can’t recall a single thing he would say that actually happened. He would constantly drop hints of things that were going to break that never did, just a liar conning the public. I have even doubted he was ever hacked, more than likely he arranged the data to be given as a publicity stunt.
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:02am
  - Inandout
    
    alien, his promises reminded me of the ‘Russian collusion’ story pushed for two years by the Dems and media..just around the corner..always just around the corner.
    
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    March 30, 2019 12:26pm
    - Tall Man
      
      Or a daily dose of our pm….
      
      9 1
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      March 30, 2019 1:49pm
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Now you are making him sound like a Winston.
    
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    March 30, 2019 8:23pm
Scott

All on red. That is so funny! ?

I’m really hoping that the attorney General will get to the bottom of all the scandals on the Democrats side. Like who started this investigation which has no truth behind it?

What did Hillary know, was this all her idea?

What did Obama know about spying on the Trump campaign and when did he know it?

And special counsel Mueller, when did he realise there was no evidence of collusion? Was it really really early on, maybe a month in as some have reported?
And then why did he allow this farce to go on for two years? A bitter investigation that divided the country and allowed half of it to believe that their president was a traitor to his country?

And why the incredibly harsh treatment to pressure a man like Paul Manafort when Mueller knew there was no collusion?
Manafort a 69 year old man was raided like a mafia Don, his wife was searched in her underwear. He was marched out under arrest in the full view of CNN cameras who were tipped off to be there and make a spectacle of him.
He was held in solitary confinement for months and threatened with jail for the rest of his natural life. He has been pursued by the courts jailed for four years, given more jail time by another court and is still being charged by another court.

None of this would have happened to him if he had not been part of the Trump campaign.
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March 30, 2019 8:48am
- All_on_Red
  
  Thanks Scott
  I reckon you ask some fair questions but as for Manafort.
  The guy didn’t declare the income or pay tax on over $30 million in income.
  He was donkey deep in working for offshore interests, especially dodgy Ukrainians and making huge money.
  And not declaring any of it.
  Yes, he’s not the only one. The Podestas were in on it too amongst so many more.
  So Manafort deserved to be punished.
  I doubt he’ll be pardoned.
  Flynn might be. There seems to be more going on with Flynn than is being revealed.
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:03am
  - Scott
    
    All on red – thanks for your comments. Paul Manafort is guilty of something sure. But his treatment has been out of all proportion to his crime. Solitary confinement for months is a cruel and unusual punishment. To me it’s relentless cruelty to a man who yes is a shady operative but would have been treated completely differently if he was not part of the Trump campaign or if he was a Democrat.
    Justice is supposed to be blind. But it appears if you were a Trump supporter you got very harsh treatment. If a Hillary person you got a pass.
    And if you are a Jussie Smollett you can do whatever you like and no one can touch you. There are two standards of justice and that’s wrong.
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:34am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Trump will leave all of this on a slow simmer, then bust it wide open when the 2020 Election campaign heats up. That is when the shit will hit the fan. Back to 4D Chess
  
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  March 30, 2019 10:37am
Ross12

Well Teresa May confirms the old ” saying”

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”.

I’ll repost an article by former UK Cabinet Minister, David Davis, which I posted last the other day which most could have missed. It is one of the better ones I have read about the issue.

https://brexitcentral.com/parliaments-authority-over-brexit-is-trumped-by-the-democratic-decision-of-the-people/
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March 30, 2019 8:54am
JibberJabber

A rational article on the subject of the times,
https://quillette.com/2019/03/26/banning-evil-in-the-shadow-of-christchurch-quasi-religious-myths-can-lead-us-astray/

Re J Petersons book banning, as a child my mums constant admonition for me to,

stand up straight and hold my shoulders back

didn`t put me on the road to Fascism, tho` having my face wiped with spit on a hankie could have pushed me over the edge…
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March 30, 2019 8:56am
- kowtow
  
  A rational article is great , cos there’s not much rational coming from our very own stuff , who through this article seek to link the great Jordie P to those terrible events in Chch.
  
  Shame , shame on the so called MSM , stirring up such hatred.
  
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111605530/how-youtube-spreads-extremist-ideas-that-inspire-events-like-the-christchurch-mosque-shootings
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:44am
- Scott
  
  Jibber – interesting article but one I would completely disagree with. Evil is a real thing.
  Here we had a situation where a man who was raised in a respectable family, according to his own testimony had a normal unbringing. Who could have done anything with his life. He could have built a career. He could have got married and raised a family. He could have helped his neighbour and done good in his community.
  
  But he freely chose to walk into a mosque, a group of strangers that had done nothing to him. And he chose to kill as many as possible. Then he chose to drive to another mosque and do it again.
  
  And on the list of dead are women and children, some as young as two.
  
  Anyone who would shoot two year olds is evil. That’s about as bad as one can get.
  
  So if that’s not “evil”, I don’t know what is?
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:50am
  - DigNap15
    
    Isis
    Sharia Law
    Boko Harem
    The Taliban
    
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    March 30, 2019 10:06am
    - toby1845
      
      Who downticked that post?
      
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      March 30, 2019 2:06pm
- Classic Liberal
  
  This is an excellent insight into people who see ‘evil’ as a force outside themselves, that they can ward off by shutting down people they consider carriers of ‘evil’, such as Jordan Peterson.
  
  We really need more clear thinkers like Michael Shermer:
  
  “Which gets to the (necessarily political) question of who should be identified, stigmatized, and even punished for being a “carrier” of evil? Who gets to define that class of people? Me? You? The majority? An evil-thought committee? The government? Social-media companies? We already have law enforcement and the military to deal with evil deeds. Controlling evil thoughts is far more problematic.
  
  Campaigns aimed at banning evil in its own (mythical) right almost always include efforts to ban evil speech—or even, as in the aftermath of the New Zealand mass murder, speech from someone who has not said anything remotely evil, but is seen, in some vague sense, to be contaminated by evil. When western societies were religious, evil speech was tantamount to anti-Christian speech. In a secular age, we call it “hate speech,” a reformulation that does nothing to solve the always contentious issue of distinguishing between evil speech and free speech, and the problem of who gets to decide where one ends and the other begins.
  
  It is my contention that we must protect speech no matter how hateful it may seem. The solution to hate speech is more speech. The counter to bad ideas is good ideas. The rebuttal to pseudoscience is better science. The answer to fake news is real news. The best way to refute alternative facts is with actual facts. This is just as true now as it was in the moment before 50 innocent Muslim lives were taken in New Zealand—even if our emotionally felt need to put a name and form to evil now makes this truth harder to see.”
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:54am
DigNap15

Yes at least on WO one could express strong right views.
I just did not like his pro Collins stance
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March 30, 2019 9:04am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Left a long time ago. When you get suspended for having a different view to a mod, it is not debate, it is censorship of free speech.
  
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  March 30, 2019 10:41am
Yvette

Helen Clark, Verified account, ‪@HelenClarkNZ‬
Shocking news from ‪#Brunei‬ where new penal code provides for death by stoning as punishment for gay sex. Hard to comprehend what could be driving such a barbaric move which stands in stark opposition to fundamental ‪#humanrights‬ principles. ⁦⁦‪@hrw‬

[photo: The Sultan of Brunei Hassanal Bolkiah]

Brunei brings in death by stoning as punishment for gay sex
From 3 April, people in the tiny south-east Asian kingdom will be subject to a draconian new penal code based on sharia law
theguardian.com

Why state “Hard to comprehend what could be driving such a barbaric move …” when you have posted in the same Twitter item the Guardian’s answer: “… a draconian new penal code based on sharia law”

As patron of the Helen Clark Foundation, with Its stated mission is to contribute to a “more just, sustainable and peaceful society”, should Helen Clark not say more than register “shock” and mention “gay sex” only.
____

BRUNEI SYARIAH PENAL CODE ORDER, 2013 implementation April 3,2019
The Penal Code lays out specific offences and punishments for crimes prescribed by the Al-Quran and Sunnah (tradition of the prophet Muhammad) and some other offences not expressly mentioned in Quran or Sunnah

Offences – Sariqah (theft), Hirabah (robbery), Zina (adultery) Zina Bil-Jabar (rape), Liwat (sodomy), Qazaf (accusation of adultery, sodomy and rape), drinking intoxicating drinks, Irtidad (apostasy)
offences against the human body, Qatl (causing death or causing hurt) … and more

Punishment & Penalty Hadd – Punishment as ordained by Quran and Hadith, including amputation of hand (theft), death or amputation of hand/foot (robbery), stoning to death or whipping (adultery or rape) … and others – fine, imprisonment, rehabilitation, supervision, whipping and death.
– Syariah_Penal_Code_Order_Summary_Final.pdf
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March 30, 2019 9:10am
- the deity formerly known as nigel6888
  
  Indeed, I’m surprised that Ms Clark is so poorly educated. It’s rather easy to understand actually.
  
  It’s called Sharia law.
  
  Not hard to find out about, its not exactly a secret what observant muslims are supposed to think about Gays, women, jews, anyone not islamic, anyone from the wrong sect of islam, anyone from the wrong tribe or village etc….
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:35am
  - DigNap15
    
    Well said.
    Its why if a person read the bible and new testament they would join one of the Charismatic churches. Not the Catholic or Protestant ones.
    The same with islam, if they follow the Koran fully they will want and believe in Sharia law.
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:39am
- Rachael Membery
  
  Easy to avoid though, don’t do the crime?
  
  For such extreme penalties the burden of proof would be exceptionally high?
  
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  March 30, 2019 1:24pm
  - sooty
    
    You have to be kidding.
    They don’t need proof.
    It would like the Salem witch trials.
    It’s all about the feelz!
    
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    March 30, 2019 3:04pm
Happychappy

Surely the Coalition can’t afford to allow this, does the PM not keep up with what’s https://i.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/111006650/dirty-secret-more-than-60-schools-still-burning-coal-for-heating.
going on.
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March 30, 2019 9:20am
redeye

Winston Peters has led us into this.

https://www.theunshackled.net/rundown/eu-declares-un-migration-pact-legally-binding/

After repeated assurances from German Chancellor Angela Merkel that the agreement is non-binding, the European Union changed course and declared the UN Migration Pact to be legally binding to every member-nation of the EU:

“UN Migration Pact ought to be legally binding for every EU member state including those which withdrew from the agreement.”
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March 30, 2019 9:20am
- alien
  
  However nz is not a member of the eu, so the eu deciding that their member nations must make it legally binding does not mean non eu countries do
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:27am
  - Classic Liberal
    
    Another step towards Brexit, I expect!
    
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    March 30, 2019 10:02am
  - niggly
    
    “… does not mean non eu countries do”.
    
    You think that will bother the Greens, Labour’s left-wing (which is just about all of them), leftie legal consultants (Palmer, Chen etc), the MSM …. as they demand and insist that NZ align its laws with the EU (and get handsomely paid lobbying and enabling the very means to do so)? 🙂
    
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    March 30, 2019 11:02am
    - alien
      
      right so what laws do we have now that the greens have demanded we copy the EU with?
      
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      March 30, 2019 2:05pm
- DigNap15
  
  I have only got two words to say to Merkel
  One starts with F
  The other is You
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:36am
- DigNap15
  
  Surely not!
  He’s a trained lawyer
  
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  March 30, 2019 10:05am
Fletch

A commentary on social media, ‘Opinion Rhapsody’, a Queen parody –

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IABRgZH12YA
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March 30, 2019 9:34am
- SGA
  
  Enjoyed that Fletch. Thanks.
  
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  March 30, 2019 10:10am
- All_on_Red
  
  Thanks Fletch
  In a more serious vein. Here’s an analysis of a video game which posed the question about the problems we see today with fake news, tribalism, bias and information overload when it was released back in 2001. It’s in 2 Parts but definitely worth viewing.
  https://m.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+most+profound+moment+in+gaming+history
  
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  March 30, 2019 11:23am
DigNap15

In view of the many recent rascit attacks reported in the media, Girls on a bus (actually a religious attack) and the Filipino fishermen.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/111668361/gisborne-man-on-morning-walk-attacked-stabbed-by-group-of-men

I wonder if this was a rascist attack?
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March 30, 2019 9:36am
- DigNap15
  
  The police are searching for 3 maori boys.
  So may be it was racist?
  
  Then Little and Kelvin Davis are worried about high maori imprisonment rates!
  
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  March 30, 2019 11:53am
  - Komata
    
    Dignap15@1153
    
    Re: ‘The police are searching for 3 maori boys’.
    
    Because their moral standards are so high (At least according to the MSM and the PM), the ‘Special People’ would NEVER do such a thing, would they?
    
    Must have been a trick of the light…
    
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    March 30, 2019 4:51pm
Southern man

Interesting article in The Australian.media not so fawning over there https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/instead-of-outlawing-semiautomatic-guns-when-she-became-pm-jacinda-ardern-banned-plastic-bags/news-story/1299e3f29e314a2a733f1b7507423d17
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March 30, 2019 9:44am
MCos

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
There must be no more disappointed man in the U.K. now than the loathsome, nakedly ambitious Boris Johnson.
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March 30, 2019 10:00am
- mandk
  
  Why would BJ be disappointed?
  
  It just makes it more likely that he will become PM.
  
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  March 30, 2019 10:42am
  - MCos
    
    The other day May said she would resign if her Brexit deal passed in parliament.
    Johnson, who had been implacably opposed to the deal previously, suddenly, seeing a quick path to No 10, changed his mind in a breathtakingly self serving display of opportunism.
    
    What a wretched bunch of people the British have elected to lead their country. Not helped by the rabble rousers they didn’t elect who helped get them into this mess.
    
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    March 30, 2019 4:29pm
DigNap15

Has there been any commentary in the MSM about the falling business confidence?
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March 30, 2019 10:08am
secondcumming

Word on the street is that *Kim Dotcom* is possibly one of those who has registered an interest with the liquidators for the purchase of WOBH……we live in interesting times
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March 30, 2019 10:39am
rightoverlabour

Why has 9/11 footage not been banned?
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March 30, 2019 11:09am
The King

Look at all these fake “hate crimes” coming out of the media today. All of them have no evidence just muslims saying people are saying mean things to them.

Fake all of them. Just like Jussie Smollet.
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March 30, 2019 11:09am
- Rodney Randall
  
  Fabricated claims waste police resources.
  
  Some examples of this ‘phenomenon.’
  
  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38328242
  
  I recall another incident where a Toronto Muslim girl claimed her hijab had been cut. This was originally investigated as a HATE ™ crime. Police resources were wasted as this also turned out to be fabricated.
  
  I see the Human Rights Foundation (Not the Human Rights Commission) has set up a page where victims of ‘hate’ crimes can post their experiences.
  
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  March 30, 2019 12:36pm
  - Rodney Randall
    
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/scarborough-hijab-attack-1.4487716
    
    An additition to support my post above.
    
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    March 30, 2019 12:41pm
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Deborah Manning helped I believe
    
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    March 30, 2019 1:32pm
- Brian McDonald
  
  So do all these alleged ‘fake crimes’ mean that the Christchurch shootings didn’t happen, keep digging.
  
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  March 30, 2019 1:57pm
- Sacha
  
  I wandered down Link-Clicking Lane last week and found a site where commenters were saying that the Mosque Murderer’s video was faked. Two rather dim screen shots apparently showed that a purported victim lying on the ground had no socks on, but some minutes later had put on his shoes.
  Everyone was having great fun shouting Fake! I expect all will be revealed at the trial –
  
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  March 30, 2019 5:53pm
Maggie Pie

I just heard Jack Dame on the wireless telling people “that the only furniture he has in his house is 2 armchairs”
Any body else like me find that just a wee bit…..odd?
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March 30, 2019 11:52am
- Inandout
  
  Maggie, one chair for Jack and one for his flatmate?
  
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  March 30, 2019 12:29pm
- stigie
  
  What does your partner reckon Maggie ?
  
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  March 30, 2019 12:49pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Told him about it not 10 minutes ago when he came back with the Krispie Cremes for our lunch. Only thing he said was, “Strange c~~ t”
    
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    March 30, 2019 1:00pm
    - waikatogirl
      
      2 armchairs and a TV surely!
      
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      March 30, 2019 3:27pm
    - Rachael Membery
      
      Krispie Cremes owned by the company whose founders used slave labour in WWII and were Nazi sympathisers?
      
      https://www.delish.com/food-news/a26964083/krispy-kreme-nazi-history/
      
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      March 31, 2019 6:27am
- toby1845
  
  I am surprised he would need two. One would be enough.
  
  That way he could kneel on the armrests (ie, one leg on each) and have his head resting on the headrest.
  
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  March 30, 2019 2:13pm
  - sooty
    
    Why have two chairs, when he could use one of them big bouncey balls like Darren Hughes!
    
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    March 30, 2019 3:12pm
Maggy Wassilieff

WWF wants us to turn off our Electric lights at 8:30pm tonight for 1 hour.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/111655476/earth-hour-shines-light-on-the-environment-through-darkness

Seems it is ok for you to light a few candles and convert those nasty paraffin wax hydrocarbons into some atmospheric CO2 molecules though.
https://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2014/03/the-chemistry-of-earth-hour-1-candle-x-1-hour-8-x-the-co2-from-1-lightbulb-x-1-hour.html
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March 30, 2019 12:01pm
- sooty
  
  Daylight saving finishes in a week!
  
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  March 30, 2019 12:26pm
Colinxy

Say goodbye to any free speech in NZ:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111661809/hate-crime-law-review-fasttracked-following-christchurch-mosque-shootings

No doubt soon, just like in the UK, misgendering someone on Twitter will get you time in gaol.

As we know, “Hate Speech” is any speech the Regressive Left disapproves of.
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March 30, 2019 12:05pm
- Scott
  
  Colinxy – this is the type of reaction that really worries me. I don’t like the concept of hate crimes and hate speech. The article says that we must welcome all immigrants.
  Does that mean our attitude is now being mandated? You must love the Chinese person, you must welcome the Muslim person etc?
  
  Presumably if you say something negative about immigrants that will be a crime?
  What about religious freedom? If you stand on the street, like I did this morning, and preach about Jesus being “the way and the truth and the life” is that a crime?
  
  Because the implication is negative for other religions. What if an immigrant complains? I’ve offended their religion.
  
  This is a very bad move for free speech and those in parliament who care about freedom of speech need to say so.
  
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  March 30, 2019 12:53pm
  - Colinxy
    
    There are all sorts of implications, not just for religion. Though I suspect you’ll still be able to hold aloft a banner that says “Jesus is gay” on it. Just make sure you don’t cross out the word Jesus and put the word Allah in its place.
    
    As we know from the UK, they’ll ban songs, lyrics and jokes. Expect a night in goal for playing that heinous hate song “Kung Fu Fighting” for example.
    
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    March 30, 2019 1:01pm
  - Classic Liberal
    
    Will religious texts and speeches be exempt? Plenty of actual incitement to violence (so beyond this new ‘hate speech’ concept) to be found in some and, unfortunately, taken literally by some followers.
    
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    March 30, 2019 1:02pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Free speech is only free until someone says they don’t like it, then it become hate speech. That binary response is expected inside a computer or robot where independence is not tolerable. For human society lack of tolerance means every small difference becomes a battlefield.
    The USA has become ungovernable and seems to be captured by the money/military complex. The UK has lost the ability to see simple reason that others won’t help you leave their association.
    
    Without the sunlight of reason and differences freely expressed opportunists prevail. Government becomes impossible.
    
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    March 30, 2019 4:11pm
  - nasska
    
    …..”What about religious freedom? If you stand on the street, like I did this morning, and preach about Jesus being “the way and the truth and the life” is that a crime? “…..
    
    No. Just a psychosis.
    
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    March 30, 2019 4:25pm
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Christians accept that we are to love others as we love ourselves. That does not compel us to worship as they do or not to be repelled by their practices. It does not compel us to enable them to practice beliefs contrary to the faith we hold to be true. It also does prevent us seeking to carry out the Great Commission to make believers of non-believers.
    
    We are not to resort to violence but we promulgate love by bringing the Word of God where that light is needed. The New Covenant, the basis of Easter, brings God’s gift of salvation to the world.
    
    The Great Deceiver, Satan, has his captives too and I have to consider the Muslim world his subjects and hence opposed to Christians. The god they recognise cannot be the God revealed in Jesus Christ who would not kill homosexuals.
    
    How is hate speech law going to be imposed on Christian teachings? The govt may be indirectly launching a Christian revival.
    
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    March 30, 2019 4:47pm
    - KevO'Brien
      
      Amendment: the last sentence in the first para. should read…It also does not prevent us seeking to carry out the Great Commission…
      
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      March 30, 2019 7:16pm
- Classic Liberal
  
  The new blasphemy law. Any law that protects any ideology from criticism is nothing but a blasphemy law.
  
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  March 30, 2019 12:55pm
  - Colinxy
    
    The problem, Classical Liberal, is that blasphemy laws are old-speak. Hate laws are new-speak.
    
    The Left love dressing up or inventing new terms for old and failed ideas. While Nineteen Eighty-Four gives the reader insight into how the Regressive Left’s mind works, The Gulag Archipelago goes into real cases over and over and over again.
    
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    March 30, 2019 1:08pm
    - Classic Liberal
      
      “blasphemy laws are old-speak. Hate laws are new-speak. ”
      
      Which is why we have to remind them, at every opportunity, that they are now supporting the new blasphemy laws while allowing religions to continue with misogyny and homophobia. Only that may get through their thick skulls!
      
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      March 30, 2019 1:13pm
- The King
  
  Of course there will be one race left out of any “Hate Crime” law. I got $100 says Whites will not be mentioned in it.
  
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  March 30, 2019 1:08pm
  - Classic Liberal
    
    I don’t think specific ethnic groups will be mentioned – that would be a very long list. But when it comes to enforcement, I don’t think you’ll get far with the HRC by complaining about being called a honky or teased for red hair.
    
    More to the point, people who defend free speech aren’t the ones to run to the HRC when they are offended. We tend to suck it up or argue back. I have to sometimes on this site (for being too libertarian usually). But I’m here because I value free speech, even when it’s unpleasant.
    
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    March 30, 2019 1:25pm
    - Colinxy
      
      I’ve yet to come across anyone from the Left who is even remotely embarrassed by being hypocritical. It seems to be part of their modus operandi. It’s as if Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals was merely a codification of standard operating practice.
      
      However, they do like coming up with new terminology like hate speech.
      
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      March 30, 2019 1:53pm
    - Colinxy
      
      Yes, it will come down to how the Commissars will interpret Article 58 of the RSFSR Penal Code…or whatever the new Hate laws will be labelled.
      
      (My previous comment was in reply to the Blasphemy Law thread).
      
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      March 30, 2019 2:33pm
    - waikatogirl
      
      It’s good to have different points of view. Jordan Peterson said it is important for humans to hold conversations and have your thinking challenged to decide what is and what is not acceptable in a decent society. That’s how you test your thinking.
      It is the equivalent of chucking out opinions that don’t work for you and keeping opinions that do.
      
      If you don’t agree with someone’s free speech it is more discussion that is required, not less.
      
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      March 30, 2019 4:59pm
- Piniwi
  
  @ Colinxy. Which passages of the Koran will be redacted to comply with any new Hate Speech Law? Asking for a friend.
  
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  March 30, 2019 2:59pm
  - Colinxy
    
    ROTFLMAO!
    
    If you’re part of the protected class, anything goes. Hell, if you can get 16 (USA) Felony charges dropped, “anything goes” really is an understatement.
    
    The Regressive Left want to re-introduce aristocracy into the political scene. Much like hate laws instead of blasphemy laws they will be re-badged with a new name. I doubt the new name will be called intersectionality as there are too many syllables. But perhaps something simpler will be derived from intersectionality for our forthcoming new political class.
    
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    March 30, 2019 3:33pm
- waikatogirl
  
  Andrew Little, Minister of Justice:
  “It’s timely to make sure that for those who would want to hurt others – even through words – that we can curtail that.”
  
  Scary times.
  
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  March 30, 2019 3:33pm
Colinxy

Another hit-piece by Andrea Vance:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111537465/how-a-strange-thorworshipping-religion-is-linked-to-the-christchurch-mosque-shootings

She leads the article by quoting so-called experts on why they’re a bunch of scumbags at some length. Then, for so-called balance, she has them defending themselves against such accusations briefly and then continues on with so-called experts again re-iterating the scumbag theme.

Note: it is not labelled as opinion.

I personally have no dog in this fight. I’m not a member nor am I the slightest bit interested in their religion. However, I had a late-friend who was. He was mixed race (Maori). Even on his European ancestry, he wasn’t predominately of Teutonic or Scandinavian descent. He was also ‘ranked’. I believe he was a priest of some description. While I never got his actual political party preference, his views were of the Left.

Vance, once again, shows inept due diligence in searching and writing for a story to fit her narrative (bias).
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March 30, 2019 12:21pm
- kowtow
  
  Thank you for posting that link .
  
  Maybe Vance can now go and investigate the Governor of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand .
  
  From the excellent croaking cassandra blog.
  
  ‘The Governor keeps on doubling down with his tree god nonsense, urging us to think of the Bank as akin to Tane Mahuta, the mythological forest god. He delivered his speech flanked by two screens of this cartoonish graphic.’
  
  https://croakingcassandra.com/
  
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  March 30, 2019 1:36pm
- alloytoo
  
  Doesn’t an article like this constitute hate speech?
  
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  March 30, 2019 1:39pm
  - Colinxy
    
    How?
    
    In Regressive Leftist la-la-land, that would require privilege plus power. Vance is targeting white males, which in Regressive Leftist speech means they hold all the power, ergo it cannot be hate speech.
    
    Just like a homeless and sick white male has far more power and privilege than Jacinda Ardern, Marama Fox, Julie Anne Genter, Chief Justice Helen Winkelmann, Governor General Patsy Reddy, Race Relations Commissioner Dame Susan Devoy and Golriz Ghahraman put together.
    
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    March 30, 2019 2:28pm
  - Tall Man
    
    It seems so to me. I’ll struggle to get this past the “mods” but why is being nationalistic so bad?
    
    I am proud of being a kiwi and have little time for people that come to my country and don’t actually want to assimilate be they muslim, hindu or church of the flying spaghetti monster…(brother inlaw is an ordained minister…I know)
    
    I’ve got mates and associates that are of Indian descent and they are more kiwi than I am in some ways yet others grab the Indian flag as soon as Virat Kohli appears on the screen. There’s no animosity but I certainly give them a serve..I just wish our cricketers would do the same.
    
    I personally know a couple of muslim refugee/immigrant families. I use immigrant and refugees because one family will freely admit they wanted out of Iraq because it was a shit hole.
    
    One family I would regard as 90% integrated, the other less than 10%. One has embraced NZ and the life we offer and the other still lives in Iraq in their heads. I cannot fathom the reason for the difference but…(here we go mods)….one family still strictly enforces the full muslim experience down to the head scarf and full burqa whereas the other just look like kiwis in style and dress just with a better tan than I.
    
    So my question is this, can a muslim inntegrate into a country with a full adherence to their religion and the tenents that religion imposes on them and do they really want to?
    
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    March 30, 2019 6:17pm
    - simpleton1
      
      Al Walaa wal Baraa is the 2nd most important doctrine in Islam and best supported doctrine of islam.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Wala%27_Wal_Bara%27
      So you will see the balance of the pros, and the cons.
      
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      March 30, 2019 6:36pm
MickMac

Colinxy
12:46
Maybe Andrea Vance will do some research and get to one of the real problems in the world.
There is some history involved too, so there is loads of documentation and reports to look through.

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/03/americas_233yearold_shock_at_jihad.html
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March 30, 2019 12:46pm
- Tall Man
  
  Yeah…nah.
  
  Not going to happen.
  
  Every blog, news item or even thought must now be purged, moderated and/or sanitised.
  
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  March 30, 2019 6:46pm
  - Rachael Membery
    
    And mind.
    
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    March 31, 2019 6:44am
tranquil

I’m depressed at the thought that at the moment, it seems very likely that “Princess Cindy” will get three more (maybe even six more) years in power.

I **can’t stand** her.
* Her endless photos on women’s magazines.
* The media’s endless fawning over her.
* The destruction that she has wreaked on the Taranaki oil industry.
* Her axing of charter schools for no other reason than **ideology**. They were working well and were helping the children (and loved by them and their parents), especially in the communities – Maori and Pasifika – that they were set up to help.
* The sheer shallowness and vacuity of most of her comments on economic matters.

I only hope that in the next year or so, something may come along that will make this government fall flat on its face.
At the moment, that seems very unlikely.

Heck, at present, they could even bring in the CGT “as is” and people would probably say “More! More!”

I just had to get all of that out…….
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March 30, 2019 12:54pm
- alien
  
  and what makes you think she will get 3 more years? Globally the economy is slowing down, that will hit NZ, already is.
  
  This government reminds me very much of hillary clinton, all the hype she will win and at the finish line will fall flat on their face
  
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  March 30, 2019 1:00pm
  - Classic Liberal
    
    Don’t you think the CoL will then get votes by promising to grab and distribute more taxes from the ‘rich pricks’?
    
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    March 30, 2019 1:15pm
    - alien
      
      winston first is had it, greens will be lucky if they can get back in.
      
      I dont think people realise the things this government has done that their voters are starting to find out. Just today was talking to a relative who needs a joint replacement, they were told in their district there is 700 waiting, with funding for less than half of that. Unsubsidised medications have gone up. Pharmac funding has gone down. They have done a lot of small things that the media are ignoring but the public aren’t. Cost of living going up. People are realising kiwibuild and the billion trees will never come of much. No, i don’t think they will get votes, the only thing that will lose national the next election is national.
      
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      March 30, 2019 1:26pm
  - Lizziep
    
    Oh I do hope you are correct alien.
    
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    March 30, 2019 1:29pm
  - waikatogirl
    
    Winston First and the Greens can go with them.
    
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    March 30, 2019 6:43pm
- DigNap15
  
  I’m with you!
  Every time I see her on tv I turn it right off.
  I cannot afford to buy enough sick bags to hear or read about her.
  
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  March 30, 2019 1:29pm
- Tall Man
  
  I know the mods don’t like this topic but I find the lies very hard to take.
  
  I was raised by a father who would not tolerate a liar and boy, you only did it once in our house.
  
  I have inherited the same intolerance and am probably passing it on to my kids.
  
  I also expect a higher standard of behaviour from our lawmakers, especially in their public persona. What they do in the privacy of their own home is not my concern unless they lie about it which has heppened before or it spills into the public arena which has also happened, more frequently that I would like.
  
  And what I find doubly irritating is her pre election waffle about “open and transparent” government without lies…….
  
  That didn’t work out too well did?
  
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  March 30, 2019 1:57pm
  - Tony Stuart
    
    I grew up in a similar household Tall Man, with similar values. Perhaps what the mods are saying is to keep your criticism to the behaviour, i.e. the lies, rather than personalising it.
    
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    March 30, 2019 2:57pm
- Monique Watson
  
  You can add the ever increasing minimum wage (now $17.70 and resultant job losses. Jacinda Ardern hasn’t made any inroads on youth suicide rates either to her discredit. She’s got a bunch of mates in key social portfolios and they’re too busy rearranging deck chairs on the titanic to give the youth of New Zealand any hope. And that and poor mental health is why kids are offing themselves enmasse.
  Great at charming the masses does not equal effectual leadership.
  
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  March 30, 2019 3:57pm
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Now Dotcom is blaming us for suicide in his wider family.
    
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    March 30, 2019 5:04pm
  - Tall Man
    
    My kids had that exposure through friends at school, numerous times. They were tough times especially when more than one in a family had a crack at it.
    
    We worked through it but the lack of effort by those that should give a shit does wear thin after a while.
    
    I flatted with my GP for a year or so, we have been mates for 30+ years, and the effect on him due to the suicides that he had to attend was dreadful. He was an emergency responder and dealt with horrific events every week.
    
    ardern’s “politicising” of this issue made both of us very angry (major understatement) and the lack of effort from her coalition does make me quite cross..(massive under statement here so I don’t stress a mod)
    
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    March 30, 2019 7:07pm
- waikatogirl
  
  I’m surprised there wasn’t more push back on the cancellation of Charter Schools.
  
  Talk about rolling over and taking it lying down, or was there a lot of dissent against the closures that the MSM did not report on? I hope voters remember that the will of the people for Charter Schools was overridden by the CoL’s ideology and union control.
  
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  March 30, 2019 5:04pm
tranquil

I think it is likely that any proposed new “hate speech” law trying to ban criticism of Islam will treat it as being a “religion”.

I think that one of the most powerful ways to fight back against any such proposed law is to prove that Islam is NOT a religion.
It is, in fact, an **ideology** and totalitarian political system.

We can criticise Naziism because it is an **ideology**. So too is Islam, and we can PROVE that this is the case.

Proof 1 – the contents of Islam’s texts –
http://www.cspipublishing.com/statistical/TrilogyStats/AmtTxtDevotedKafir.html

That link shows the amount of text in the Quran, hadiths and Sira that is devoted to the “kafir” (one of Islam’s terms for non-Muslims).

* 64 percent of the Quran –
* 81 percent of the Sira –
* 37 percent of hadiths –

– are devoted to non-Muslims.
This amounts to 51 percent of the Trilogy.

**No so-called “religion”** can call itself a religion when over half of its texts (and almost two-thirds of its most important text) are about those **outside** of it!
That is **not** a religion.
That is an **ideology** or a **cult.**

Proof Two – contents of Sira by topic
The Sira is the “biography” of Mohammed.
http://www.cspipublishing.com/statistical/TrilogyStats/Amount_of_Text_in_the_Sira_Devoted_to_Topic.html

Proof Three – Islamic Jurisprudence
This is called “fiqh” –
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh

Fields of jurisprudence
* Criminal
*Economics
*Etiquette
*Hygienical
*Inheritance
*Marital
*Military
*Political
*Theological <- HERE is the "religious" part of Islam

See? The "religious" part of Islam is like the tiny part of an iceberg that we see above the water! The **political** parts of Islam are the rest of the "iceberg", and they form the vast majority of it.

Finally – these links may prove useful in discussions about Islam –
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Factual_Persuasion_-_Shaping

https://www.politicalislam.com/political-islam-totalitarian-doctrine/
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March 30, 2019 1:20pm
- Classic Liberal
  
  You are right. But they will just go on about ‘over a billion muslims’ and tell you to shut up or be prosecuted.
  
  I would argue that religions should not be exempt from any ‘hate speech’ laws, then show how much incitement to violence there is in various religious texts.
  
  The politicians will then have to decide: ‘hate speech’ laws for all and lose all religious voters, or admit that they will make religions exempt, thus creating a new blasphemy law.
  
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  March 30, 2019 1:35pm
- Brian McDonald
  
  Great research but you are yet to find evidence in the literature that when 50 people are slaughtered Muslims must firstly forgive the shooter and reject hate. Look forward to you finding that.
  
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  March 30, 2019 1:59pm
- MickMac
  
  Tranquil
  8:36
  I first read the Koran in 1996 and did it the inductive method as that was all I knew from other texts.
  Using A4 sheets Landscape in M/S Word, 1/3rd across marked down the page, then thumb sized lines across the other 2/3rd of landscape page, with headers Jews, Jihad, Jeyzra(head tax), Kafir (unbelievers), Family, Dawah (evangelism), Taqiyya (lying to kafirs & the other either Shia/Sunni).
  
  My method was,
  1st Read the text, think about what it says/means:
  2nd write it down as you see it (in the first 1/3rd marked out):
  3rd speak the text out loud listening to it what does it mean:
  4th Write the text out in your own words what you think it means: (under the text already written to compare).
  
  Then think about what areas of life it refers too and tick off the boxes to the right in the other 2/3rds of the page.
  It took me 2.5 months with a little bit each day to get through it, it was difficult.
  
  I referred to some websites but they tended to be Islamic and aimed at prothesalising or the exact opposite and worse.
  I just wanted to understand Muhammad and Islam more.
  
  It was slow going at first but each time I added a few more headers as I learned more.
  I did that 3x or so before I came upon Bill Warner.
  
  Truly the internet is a horrible place with extremists on all sides. PoliticalIslam to me was a godsend.
  A focused, clear site that adhered to the words and text, no hyperbole, extremist B/S just facts.
  
  I see from your link that the site has changed a bit since I last saw it. It was a work in progress as he added sections. But so coherent and kept me away from iffy sites.
  
  Well done for posting, it has been a journey to get here. I prefer the Chronological Koran as I find people get bogged down in the other.
  Plus as one learns Muhammads history it aligns with his Meccan and Midina periods.
  
  I read The Sira every year and am thinking of doing it in a small group for discussion.
  I am about to start again a complete read through and am even thinking of doing a comparative course to help.
  
  I’m not an expert by any means but know when someone is incorrect or plain outright lying now.
  I need to work on my tolerance a bit now as I find I’m getting intolerant as I read the rubbish put out there.
  
  I’ve come to the conclusion that Fake News tends to start with the regular media most times.
  Cheers 🙂
  
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  March 31, 2019 8:50am
DigNap15

I think it was Stuff or the Herald today running a story about a muslim refugee familiy in Dunedin with 5 children.
They are not happy with their house.
And they have another child on the way.
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March 30, 2019 1:32pm
- alien
  
  I wouldnt be happy with it either if I was them, I;d be disgusted
  
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/111649722/former-refugee-family-placed-in-damp-dunedin-home-feel-abandoned
  
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  March 30, 2019 2:01pm
  - DigNap15
    
    Surely Ardern would be kinder than that to her fellow muslims.
    
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    March 30, 2019 2:33pm
  - backster
    
    No mention of whether the father of six is employed.
    
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    March 30, 2019 3:41pm
    - alien
      
      because that is not relevant.
      
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      March 30, 2019 4:42pm
      - nasska
        
        Why isn’t it relevant? If he were gainfully employed he may well be able to provide accommodation for his family without plucking the nation’s heart strings.
        
        I realise that self determination & getting off ones arse are rare qualities in these times but there we have it.
        
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        March 30, 2019 5:02pm
      - Tall Man
        
        For his self esteem it may well make a difference.
        
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        March 30, 2019 7:16pm
    - MickMac
      
      I agree with Alien.
      09:00
      Whether he is working or not isn’t the issue.
      the issue is if the accompanying is not safe for people and esp kids.
      
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      March 31, 2019 9:00am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Why aren’t they in a state house, so much easier to be upgraded as they have more children.
    
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    March 30, 2019 4:59pm
    - waikatogirl
      
      Why are they having more children? 5 is surely enough unless you are paying for raising your brood yourselves.
      
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      March 30, 2019 5:08pm
      - Rachael Membery
        
        I think there is a psychological thing about if you come from a country with high infant mortality, and if your culture is one where the young take care of the old that you need spares.
        
        It can take a while to realise that there is no need.
        
        Or just because they can.
        
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        March 30, 2019 6:41pm
      - Tall Man
        
        Rachael and WG, you can’t populate the world with a couple of kids…
        
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        March 30, 2019 7:18pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  Honestly, some people are just nevwer satisfied!
  I’ve seen photos of my partners old flat in Leith Street when he spent 3 years down there as a student. Let me tell you the place those refugees are living is a palace by comparison.
  
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  March 30, 2019 2:25pm
  - Tony Stuart
    
    There was ‘undred and fifty of us livin’ in shoebox in t’ middle of t’ road.
    
    Cardboard box?
    
    Aye.
    
    You were lucky!
    
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    March 30, 2019 2:59pm
    - PhilP
      
      Good Monty Python sketch that Tony Stuart.
      
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      March 30, 2019 4:26pm
    - Tall Man
      
      Double yellow line I’ll bet… Luxury…we had a fucking passing lane….
      
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      March 30, 2019 7:21pm
mikenmildagain

Do you think there’s any special difference between a ‘religion’ and an ‘ideology’?
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March 30, 2019 1:42pm
- rangitoto
  
  A sky pixie or two?
  
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  March 30, 2019 2:01pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Yep, in many instances…
  
  i.e. All those ideologies that have nothing to do with supernatural entities.
  
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  March 30, 2019 2:19pm
  - Classic Liberal
    
    But neither should be protected against criticism, Maggy.
    
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    March 30, 2019 2:28pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    I was responding to tranquil’s comment, in which he seemed to suggest that Islam was particularly vile because he felt able to define it as an ideology rather than a religion. My distinction would be that religions are all particularly pernicious ideologies because of their adherents’ dependence on the revealed ‘truths’ communicated from imaginary beings.
    
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    March 30, 2019 2:32pm
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      How pernicious is “Mauri”?
      (as evidenced in RMA hearings/ Waitangi Tribunal findings)
      
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      March 30, 2019 2:41pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        No more or less pernicious than other spiritual beliefs?
        
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        March 30, 2019 4:09pm
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        So therefore particularly pernicious by your reasoning.
        
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        March 30, 2019 6:00pm
- Classic Liberal
  
  No, MM. But only religious ideologies will be protected from criticism.
  
  Read up on the history of hate speech laws: the Soviet Union and the Organization of the Islamic Conference show us the way:
  
  https://www.hoover.org/research/sordid-origin-hate-speech-laws
  
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  March 30, 2019 2:26pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    I don’t know where that would leave tranquil’s specious attempt to define Islam as not a religion.
    
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    March 30, 2019 2:35pm
  - simpleton1
    
    From a comment about 4 years ago.
    
    The Swedish Minister for Culture, Lena Adelsohn-Liljeroth, introduced a law that removes statutory press
    subsidies from “immigrant-critical” media. Her action is in response to media which criticized her government for granting blanket permanent residence to Syrian asylum seekers.
    
    Where did we hear that clause recently?
    An old lawyer said it was no problem and signed the whole pact, saying it is not binding.
    Just wait for some precedents to come in place.
    
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    March 30, 2019 2:56pm
  - Colinxy
    
    Fascinating. You’ve reminded me of an old research topic I thought about and never undertook: why were the Soviets so cosy with Islam when they were supposedly so antitheistic? It became redundant or so I thought after the collapse of the USSR.
    
    It might be an important topic as it might explain why some sects of modern feminism (especially those that identify as Trotskyites) and even atheism (Atheism+ and numerous US Atheist conventions) are cosying up to Islam.
    
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    March 30, 2019 3:03pm
    - KevO'Brien
      
      Same adherency to the Father of Lies: Satan.
      
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      March 30, 2019 4:59pm
      - Colinxy
        
        That is not an argument: it explains nothing.
        
        A better explanation is that they find solidarity in each other’s totalitarian outlook, especially when tinged with a “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”. To the unhinged feminist, Western culture is corrupt patriarchy. To the socialist, capitalist dystopia. To the Islamist extremist, “Christian infidels” etc.
        
        For the Soviets, it might have been as boring as searching for potential anti-Western allies. It’s not as though bizarre alliances haven’t been formed before.
        
        I imagine that if Western culture falls, each faction will be at each other’s throats in moments.
        
        Of course, while the above explanation might be true, it also lacks details on the “how”.
        
        What religionists like yourself should understand, is invoking “God” does not advance the argument. For example, if you believe in intelligent design, saying so is a dead end. If you could enlighten us on how “God” did it then perhaps you’d get further.
        
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        March 30, 2019 7:09pm
- Tall Man
  
  I adhere to no religion but I do find it a wee bit pathetic to “ride” those that do. It’s not like they support her…
  
  As a society, our whole system revolves around some form of “christian” tenent. I don’t have a problem with that and I wonder why some do.
  
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  March 30, 2019 7:29pm
- MickMac
  
  Yes, what do you think Mikemild?
  
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  March 31, 2019 9:01am
BananaLlama

Jacinda will win another 3 years if only due to the referendum on Marijuana. This will have everyone out at the polls voting to legalise and they will ofc vote labour as well.
Personally i think Nicky Kaye would give the Ayatollah a good hiding but she doesn’t seem to want the top job just yet.

Hopefully when National and ACT win the following election they will finally take action on social issues and start rolling back publicly funded left wing institutions. The left have no problems putting the knife into private institutions so the right should return the favour and give their funding back to the taxpayer.
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March 30, 2019 2:49pm
- brett68
  
  Good one, Nicky Kaye is one of the wettest National Mps there are, she makes Chris Bishop look hard right.
  
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  March 30, 2019 3:38pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  I do not think that the referendum on marijuana will fly.
  
  Ay one that grows dope would literally be the turkey voting for xmas, the arse will drop out of the market, they would be foolish to vote to legalise it.
  
  If you are speaking from likely turn out,it will spur from both sides.
  Is there a maximum number of referendums that can be on a ballot?
  
  Gun law should be there as well.
  
  What are our top picks?
  
  Race based seats
  Marijuana
  Guns
  Flag/republic
  Immigration
  
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  March 30, 2019 4:50pm
- Tall Man
  
  Downtick for pessimism.
  
  I’d make you stand in the “naughty corner” with steffy but it looks like your first offense…
  
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  March 30, 2019 7:33pm
  - Rachael Membery
    
    More like to make others stand in the naughty corner lol.
    
    Not pessimistic, optimistic about the next election.
    
    Perhaps someone could set up an employment agency for National voters, before we are scared to identify ourselves.
    
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    March 31, 2019 6:59am
Rachael Membery

Will this derail the new gun laws? https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111594950/gangs-bosses-say-weapons-wont-be-handed-back-after-christchurch-mosque-shooting
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March 30, 2019 3:03pm
- kowtow
  
  The law only applies to the law abiding .
  
  The law abiding will hand in their firearms , the criminal never will.
  
  What will happen is this will create an awful lot of ill feeling among the law abiding.
  
  And this is just the start of the crack down on the law abiding . Much more to come.
  
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  March 30, 2019 4:33pm
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Nice of them to come out and say it. I see Gun City has a petition going for their customers, is there a wider public one?
    I haven’t seen one and despite not being a gun owner or particularly liking them, I do not think that there should be a law change, that affects law abiding gun enthusiasts.
    
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    March 30, 2019 4:44pm
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Why would the law abiding disarm themselves? They will just be made criminal and subject to random searches.
    
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    March 30, 2019 5:53pm
Maggie Pie

My partner just got back from taking his new dog for a run down at the beach.
He reckons naming him Shark probably wasn’t such a great idea.
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March 30, 2019 3:05pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  Bomb/er would be as good, it used to be popular.
  
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  March 30, 2019 3:45pm
tranquil

@mikenmildagain said – “Do you think there’s any special difference between a ‘religion’ and an ‘ideology’?”

That’s exactly what the proof I gave was trying to show.

I was trying to show that any “religious” content of Islam is just a **thin coating of snow** on top of its vast political and ideological “mountain”.

I was trying to show that when the most important book of Islam – the Quran – is almost two-thirds about people **outside** of the belief system, that system can **not** be called a “religion”.
It is a hate-filled ideology (as the texts so **handily** show for us…… ).

Mohammed was actually a pretty dismal failure as a preacher. He spent about 10 years in Mecca (IIRC) and only got around 150 followers (I’m trying to find the source of that info now).

It was only when he moved to Medina and became a **political and military leader** that Islam took off.

The fact that the Quran commands Muslims almost 90 times to “follow Mohammed” helps the “Islam is an ideology” case too –
http://www.cspipublishing.com/statistical/TrilogyStats/imitate_mohamed.html

Another handy link –
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Timeline_of_Muhammad
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March 30, 2019 3:05pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  You are just repeating your claim that one nonsensical religion is worse than others because, in your opinion, it is not a religion. My question still stands: why is it better to be labelled a religion than an ideology?
  
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  March 30, 2019 4:12pm
  - nasska
    
    …..”why is it better to be labelled a religion than an ideology”…..
    
    No tax on the ill-gotten gains?
    
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    March 30, 2019 4:18pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      “I renounce the Devil and all his taxes”?
      
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      March 30, 2019 4:27pm
      - Rachael Membery
        
        Don’t you like Michael Cullen?
        
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        March 30, 2019 5:10pm
    - Rachael Membery
      
      Do Muslims tithe or an equivalent?
      
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      March 31, 2019 7:01am
  - tranquil
    
    @mikenmildagain said – “why is it better to be labelled a religion than an ideology?”
    
    Because “religions” are protected by hate-speech laws. Ideologies (usually) are not.
    I thought that would have been self-evident.
    
    There. Does that answer your question?
    
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    March 30, 2019 4:24pm
    - nasska
      
      So if you want to peddle an ideology it is far better to wrap it up with a religion.
      
      It seems that saying anything that might upset someone who hears voices in their heads & sees things that aren’t there is “hateful”.
      
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      March 30, 2019 4:37pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        He’s not getting the point, nasska. It doesn’t matter what deluded ideas people have, so much, or whether those delusions purport to emanate from imaginary beings or humans, but what principles people actually follow.
        So comparing scriptures and finding one wanting is futile.
        
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        March 30, 2019 4:54pm
      - nasska
        
        ….”but what principles people actually follow”…..
        
        But those principles have likely been influenced by saturation in the religious tenets those people have been brought up with. Something about give me the child until he is seven & I’ll show you the man.
        
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        March 30, 2019 5:11pm
  - Classic Liberal
    
    MM: because religious texts will be exempt from ‘hate speech’ laws and religious people who feel offended will be able to use the ‘hate speech’ laws to shut critics up.
    
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    March 30, 2019 5:32pm
  - MickMac
    
    Protection from nice people and academics (lefty).
    unless it’s Christianity…..
    People critique an ideology much harder.
    
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    March 31, 2019 9:06am
- simpleton1
  
  An encouragement to sign up was the spoils, so called benefits from raids on caravans.
  
  koran (8:41) Know that one fifth of the spoils that you obtain belongs to Allah, to the Messenger, to the near of kin, to the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer.32 This you must observe if you truly believe In Allah and in what We sent down on Our servant33 on the day when the true was distinguished from the false, the day on which the two armies met in battle. Allah has power over all things.
  
  32. This verse lay’s down the law for distributing the spoils of war. Spoils of war, as mentioned earlier, essentially belong to God and His Messenger. They alone have the right to dispose of them. As for the soldiers who fight, they are not the rightful owners of the spoils; whatever they do receive should be considered an extra reward from God rather than their legitimate right.
  
  Here it is stated how God and His Messenger decided to dispose of the spoils. The prescribed rule is that the soldiers should depbsit all the spoils with the ruler or the commander without making any effort to conceal anything. One-fifth of the spoils thus deposited would be assigned for the purposes mentioned in the present verse and four-fifths would be distributed among the soldiers who had taken part in the fighting. In keeping with the directive contained in the present verse, after every battle the Prophet (peace be on him) used to proclaim: ‘These are your spoils. My own share in them is no more than one-fifth and even that fifth is spent on you. Bring everything, even if it be a piece of thread or a needle, or anything bigger or smaller, and take nothing by stealth (gulal), for taking by stealth is a shameful deed, and would lead to Hell.’ (Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, vol. 5, p. 316 – Ed.)
  
  It is pertinent to remember that the share of God and His Messenger (peace be on him) in the spoils signifies that a part of the spoils should be earmarked for the struggle to exalt the Word of God and to establish Islam as an operational system of life..
  
  As to the word ‘kinsmen’ in the verse, during the Prophet’s lifetime, it stood for his relatives. Since the Prophet (peace be on him) devoted all his time to the cause of Islam, he was not in a position to earn his own living. Hence, some arrangement had to be made for the maintenance of the Prophet (peace be on him) as well as for his family, and the relatives dependent upon him for financial support. Hence a part of khums (one-fifth of the spoils of war) was specified for that purpose. …… http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=8&verse=38&to=44
  
  Well rewarded thuggery as a band of brothers.
  
  raids: those led by Muhammad and those led by lieutenants. They featured somewhere between seven and 200 warriors, typically on foot.[12] These fighters were, at last initially, provided almost exclusively by the Muhajirun, the Muslim migrants from Mecca. Consisting primarily of unemployed young men, they had the chance to place their name in a register if desiring to go on a raid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_career_of_Muhammad
  
  So good feelings to be following the “perfect man” Mohammad, and to enjoy the pleasures of some slaves, and a bit of untaxed gains, while that type of economic business is masked with the religion of love taxes, kindness and well being budgets. After all they had to eat when in Medina, which did not produce enough food for the migrants from Mecca.
  
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  March 30, 2019 4:27pm
srylands

Just spent a few minutes reading the wording of anti hate speech laws in the UK.

“(1) A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he—
(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting. ”

That is extraordinary. So if I claim I am ” insulted ” by your tweet, you need to prove that you did not intend to cause me distress.
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March 30, 2019 3:30pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  I’m no lawyer, but I think you are reversing the onus of proof to make your claim more alarming than that law actually is.
  
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  March 30, 2019 4:14pm
  - WaveyDavey
    
    Afraid not Mike. The law has been framed so that an allegation of a hate incident is recorded as a hate incident regardless of evidence.
    
    I know you won’t believe me because doesn’t suit your biases but the truth of it is in the actions.
    
    a) a UK police force tweeted (amongst other things) that they wanted people to report non-crime hate incidents. ie the police would record offensive behaviour as a hate incident even when there was no crime committed.
    
    “…please report non-crime hate incidents, which can include things like offensive or insulting comments…”
    
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/south-yorkshire-police-relentlessly-mocked-after-urging-people-to-report-one-another-for-offensive-a3932131.html
    
    An elderly white woman was reported for hate-crime after sounding her horn at a driver who was black.
    
    “…elderly woman had to be questioned as a hate criminal after beeping her car horn at a black driver…”
    
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/elderly-woman-questioned-police-hate-13535704
    
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    March 30, 2019 6:28pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      That’s not what the law quoted by srylands said, is it?
      
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      March 30, 2019 7:53pm
      - WaveyDavey
        
        “insulting words” gives the lie to that. Anyone is able to claim anything is insulting and the police have to act upon it.
        
        “After Mr Miller questioned why the complainant was being described as a “victim” if no crime had been committed, the officer told him: “We need to check your thinking”.”
        
        https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/24/man-investigated-police-retweeting-transgender-limerick/
        
        But previous evidence suggests that you’d be ok with the police checking peoples’ thinking. I think George Orwell coined a term for that – thought crime.
        
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        March 30, 2019 9:12pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  Without even knowing your name?
  
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  March 30, 2019 5:08pm
brett68

Good one Trump.
Fucking hell, this isn’t going to end well.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/03/29/if-you-cannot-trust-saudis-bone-saw-says-us-lawmaker-you-should-not-trust-them
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March 30, 2019 3:40pm
- secondcumming
  
  As an aside, did you see the *Aljaz doco* last night, showing that just prior to the murder of Khasshogi, the Saudi Embassy in Turkey had installed a huge gas powered outdoor oven, capable of reaching 1200 C.
  
  The Turkish installer was told they wanted “something large enough to cook 4 lambs at once”. He described it “as being twice the size of anything he had ever built previously….and capable of incinerating a man”
  
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  March 30, 2019 4:04pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Yes my partner watch that to. He was saying that on the same day the Saudi hit squad took the suitcases there, they also had a delivery of 40kg of fresh lamb from one of Turkey top restaurants. My partner reckons there will be a few Turkish officials that attended the barbie that night probaly feeling a bit ill now.
    
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    March 30, 2019 4:44pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  Trump sincerely believes that the murderous dictators of Saudi Arabia, Russia, North Korea, etc are his friends. He admires them, craves their approval, and does everything he can to support them.
  
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  March 30, 2019 4:20pm
  - MrTips
    
    Sounds like how you feel on KB eh MM??
    
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    March 30, 2019 5:11pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    A lot will say you are an idiot Mike – but they just can’t be bothered about responding to your trolling.
    Go have a drink, or get a root, or walk the beach. Get a life man
    
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    March 30, 2019 5:31pm
  - MickMac
    
    Mikemild
    09:10
    I’m starting to think that your purpose in posting here is actually Hate speech towards others.
    
    It seems to me that you are deliberately are attacking people in this realm by your words and choice of them.
    You don’t actually engage in conversation just put trolling out there to spike people.
    
    and then you deliberately ask questions without actually engaging in conversation (deliberately to my mind to jab people).
    
    If that’s not hate speech I don’t know what is….
    
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    March 31, 2019 9:11am
tranquil

When it comes to so-called “hate speech”, I’m leaning towards the view that having no “hate speech” laws would be a good thing. Oh, and *definitely* get rid of the Human Wrongs Commission – they are a **complete** waste of space.

In other words – the only “court” that would “judge” any speech would be the “court of public opinion”. That “court” can be very powerful.

That would sure as heck be a *lot* simpler and (dare I say it) better than what we have now.

If we just had libel and slander laws (and they were only applicable to an individual – I don’t know if that’s the case or not) then that might well be enough.

History has shown that the more laws are enacted (**especially** by loony-lefty governments), the worse that things generally get.
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March 30, 2019 3:43pm
Harriet

“….hate speech law….”

Seriously, it’s tyranny, let’s face it that is what it is as ‘hate speech’ won’t be codified.
Instead you will have what the British gave us in the past, Tudor England’s Courts of High Commission. With a NZ left wing bias.

Don’t believe me – just look at NSW where one single gay activist lodged complaint after complaint after compliant to the ‘NSW Human Rights Commission’ making allegations of ‘homophobia etc.’, and where ‘defendants’ had to hire lawyers for a process that takes a year or two, and all the public ‘shaming’ that goes with it.
It’s not defamation laws, so I presume you can’t sue for defamation against complainants, but the lawyers here would know more than me.

If you want to really fight back against the civilian arm of government and all their ‘Nanny Bullshit’ like PC, phobias, isms etc. then just smack an agreeable wife or girlfriend on the bum in public, often — feminists, media, health officials, education officials, ministry of wimmin, rights and childrens commissioner, academics, Greens, the Law, —- they’ll all stand about hesitating not knowing what to do — or say. 😎
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March 30, 2019 3:53pm
big bruv

Has NZ become an Islamic nation within the last two weeks?
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March 30, 2019 4:54pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  No way.
  
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  March 30, 2019 5:02pm
- MrTips
  
  I’m sure that’s a question the President of China will ask Cindy on Monday. Time for the rubber to hit the belt and road Ms PM.
  
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  March 30, 2019 5:09pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  Are you worried about us becoming the new Caliphate?
  
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  March 30, 2019 5:29pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  In the last two years plus
  
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  March 30, 2019 5:33pm
tranquil

**Excellent** video of Douglas Murray discussing Islam –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UDBj02N06o

One of the things he says is that in 2008, Turkish President Erdogan went to Germany and talked to Turkish Muslims there.
He said to them “do not integrate but get involved in local politics **because we need you.**”
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March 30, 2019 5:16pm
- MickMac
  
  Yes Tranquil, I remember reading that. The germans should have banned him….
  
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  March 31, 2019 9:13am
Monique Watson

And while the chaps and trouts of the MSM get distracted by Mademoiselle Ardern, this form of Islam is threatening an entire nation:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/03/28/world/asia/brunei-stoning-death.amp.html
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March 30, 2019 5:16pm
nasska

A word of thanks to whoever drew the short straw for moderation duties this arvo. Quick enough to allow debate within a thread.
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March 30, 2019 5:26pm
Monique Watson

My Hindi driver (I have a driver and a companion dog) says Islam is a religion with a history of not treating women well.
I guess you will no longer hear that opinion expressed openly in NZ.

The dog is not Hindi Btw.
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March 30, 2019 5:27pm
- WaveyDavey
  
  When I went home after September the 11th my Sikh newsagent said “now you now what we’ve been living with for hundreds of years.”
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:19pm
tranquil

“A brief history of Islam” – by ex-Muslim Brigitte Gabriel –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aACpy7fLjFo
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March 30, 2019 5:40pm
dave_c_

With regard to Brexit – they’re all fuckers -the politicians are all beholden to obeyance to the EU.
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March 30, 2019 6:05pm
dave_c_

I see Macron is authorising police to shoot with live ammunition against the yellow vests !

What exactly is he and his corrupt dictatorship afraid of ?
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March 30, 2019 6:24pm
- Tall Man
  
  Our non honest and non religiously affiliated pm is watching…and ….waiting for “what’s in it for wynston” to tell her what comes next.
  
  She is also avidly watching the “TV news” to keep up.
  
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  March 30, 2019 7:57pm
- Komata
  
  Dave_c_
  
  Being out of a job and away from the trough?
  
  Perhaps ‘Mummy’ won’t like him if he is?
  
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  March 30, 2019 9:37pm
DigNap15

Trump may close the border next week

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/111674255/donald-trump-threatens-usmexico-border-closure-unless-illegal-immigration-stops

I hope he does.
The number of third world illegals from Central America, South America and Africa, that use Mexico as a way into the US is amazing.
Their railways are full of them each night.
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March 30, 2019 7:08pm
- Tall Man
  
  I just don’t get it. Why are the left so against “border control”….?
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:06pm
  - DigNap15
    
    They like doing good and getting more voters
    
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    March 30, 2019 10:03pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Prof Ann-Marie Brady checking up on the Chinese on the Ice.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-30/china-in-antarctica-inspection-regime/10858486
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March 30, 2019 7:10pm
dave_c_

THOUGHT FOR THE DAY!
“We are approaching a darkness in the land. Boys and girls are emerging from every level of school with certificates and degrees, but they can’t read, write or calculate. We don’t have academic honesty or intellectual rigor. Schools have abandoned integrity and rigor.”
— Julius Sumner Miller
How true !!
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March 30, 2019 7:23pm
- Tall Man
  
  But…they all vote…labour….
  
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  March 30, 2019 7:52pm
- nasska
  
  …..”but they can’t read, write or calculate. We don’t have academic honesty or intellectual rigor”…..
  
  George Orwell predicted as such in 1949 when he wrote “1984”:
  
  …..For if leisure and security were enjoyed by all alike, the great mass of human beings who are normally stupefied by poverty would become literate and would learn to think for themselves; and when once they had done this, they would sooner or later realise that the privileged minority had no function, and they would sweep it away. In the long run, a hierarchical society was only possible on a basis of poverty and ignorance.”…….
  
  The Left do hierarchy very well.
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:03pm
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Yeah…nah. Throughout recorded history people have bemoaned the lesser educational capabilities of the next generation.
    “It was different in my day…”
    
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    March 30, 2019 8:23pm
    - Tall Man
      
      Mikey..I seriously doubt you’ve ever “had a day”….
      
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      March 30, 2019 8:35pm
    - nasska
      
      …..”people have bemoaned the lesser educational capabilities of the next generation”…..
      
      Now you’re getting somewhere! My formative years resonated with parents, teachers & those who intercede with mythical deities on our behalf decrying my academic shortfalls. Indeed I was only miraculously deprived of a lifelong career on the nightcart by the introduction of sewage treatment!
      
      The twin inventions of the pocket calculator & later the word processor with spellcheck allowed me break the chains & crawl up the ladder to a life of struggle that only a poorly educated cocky experiences! 🙂
      
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      March 30, 2019 8:49pm
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    The great mass of humanity became literate after 1950….
    https://ourworldindata.org/literacy
    doesn’t seem to have alleviated group-think tho’.
    
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    March 30, 2019 8:46pm
    - nasska
      
      Maggy,
      
      To my way of thinking the doing away with rote learning has a few upsides the major of which centres around developing the capacity of thought & reason.
      
      The downside is the skimmimg over the 3 x Rs which seriously hampers the expression & explaining of the reasoned thought.
      
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      March 30, 2019 8:58pm
dave_c_

Medical Police State is here: New York county bans unvaccinated people from all public spaces… “imprisons” those who refuse to take dangerous injections.
Mmmm – How long before this becomes the COL of NZ’s position. ?? On top of the reaction to the latest tragedy in this country. I doubt it will be long before this assumes some traction also.
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March 30, 2019 7:58pm
- Tall Man
  
  I assume you are in favour of this as are most of NZ.
  
  The unvaccinated are killing innocents. In my opinion…
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:04pm
  - nasska
    
    The mad who campaign relentlessly against vaccination should be hounded without mercy.
    
    But compulsion……no way! The slippery slope of compulsory medical treatment & all it entails beckons.
    
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    March 30, 2019 8:11pm
  - dave_c_
    
    Alas for you – No
    
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    March 30, 2019 8:19pm
    - Tall Man
      
      Alas for our children actually…
      
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      March 30, 2019 8:39pm
      - Tall Man
        
        Come on “mods”…this is hardly contraversial…
        
        FFS, let’s get in online…
        
        1 1
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        March 30, 2019 10:51pm
      - Peter Lane
        
        It may come as some surprise to you that we don’t wait up all night waiting for your comments.
        
        A moderator.
        
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        March 31, 2019 6:34am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        Devastating response.
        
        2 2
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        March 31, 2019 6:40am
      - Rachael Membery
        
        And grandchildren, this doesn’t help.
        
        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/111670561/hamilton-city-councillor-apologies-for-wearing-antivax-tshirt-to-autism-fundraiser
        
        Must be local body elections coming up.
        
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        March 31, 2019 8:09am
- alien
  
  i cant help but wonder if people just comment for the sake of saying what they believe instead of making informed comments. The education minister has already stated that he will not stop unvaccinated children from attending school.
  
  So why you live in fear monger mode of what the col might do perhaps you should try educating yourself
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:10pm
  - Tall Man
    
    So..saying what you believe is bad?
    
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    March 30, 2019 8:43pm
  - waikatogirl
    
    Teachers aren’t required to be fully vaccinated before having a class filled with children in their care.
    
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    March 30, 2019 9:59pm
    - Rachael Membery
      
      Or nurses.
      
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      March 31, 2019 8:10am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Vaxxer alert. Is dave_c really Siggi Henry?
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/111670561/hamilton-city-councillor-apologies-for-wearing-antivax-tshirt-to-autism-fundraiser
  
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  March 30, 2019 8:29pm
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    https://thespinoff.co.nz/science/13-07-2017/is-siggi-henry-new-zealands-most-dangerous-city-councillor/
    
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    March 30, 2019 8:39pm
  - Tall Man
    
    I’ll risk the mods… You really are pathetic.
    
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    March 30, 2019 8:46pm
  - sooty
    
    Mike, are you Matt Nippert?
    
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    March 30, 2019 8:55pm
Kevin Herlihy

The mortality rate for unvaccinated children is approx. 50%. Would you, as a parent, be willing to gamble with your children’s lives during an outbreak?
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March 31, 2019 8:53pm

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