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October 25, 2017 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 25 October 2017

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Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa

Comrades,
I bring you todays edict from our Glorious Leader,
Henceforth, the following words are BANNED:

Meme
Pepe
KEK
Kekistan
Kekistani
God Emperor Trump
Harvey Wienstien

Noncompliance will result in an unlimited stay at Dear Leaders ~~gulag~~ pleasure.

Back to work plebs, that is all.
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October 25, 2017 8:00am
- KevOB
  
  With or without her xdressing partner?
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:48am
  - Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
    
    Comrade Gayford does not x dress. The comrade dresses “ironically”.
    
    xdressing will be on tomorrow’s updated list of banned words.
    
    Back to work pleb, that is all.
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:09am
- EAD_TWO
  
  Thank you PotDPRoA for this post and bringing the language of Alt-right to the forefront of NZs leading political blog.
  
  It seems judging by the uptick ratio that the Alt-right is coalescing here on Kiwiblog and we’ve found an audience receiptive of our ideas.
  
  ?Long live Pepe ?
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:46am
  - Nukuleka
    
    ‘receptive’, dahling, ‘receptive’.
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:56am
    - EAD_TWO
      
      damn autospell
      
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      October 25, 2017 11:39am
  - Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
    
    Comrade EAD_TWO; you have a solemn duty to the Motherland to report the location of any and all Pepe’s for the advancement of the glorious revolution against the capitalist pigs. Your local Comrade Commissar will be informed.
    
    We are also aware of, and tracking all internet searches for the youtuber Big Man Tyrone’s video “Boston Meme War Declared” we Stand with Her and will not let this affront to our loyal comrades go unchallenged.
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:26am
PhilBest

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Matthew Hooton is right. DPF and the National establishment and the KB crowd should pull their partisan heads out of the sand. Stop ignoring Hooton, and actually make a thread out of what he is saying, on a regular basis.
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October 25, 2017 8:04am
- PhilBest
  
  I’ve been watching for any coverage of Hooton’s recent comments on here. The absence of consideration of them, indicates some kind of moral unwillingness. If you dismiss everyone who voices uncomfortable opinions as a “loser” who can safely be ignored, well, hmmmm, what does history teach us about that kind of attitude? Hooton is not a mere cipher, he has been around. Furthermore, there is a particular kind of integrity involved for a person to break with a partisan blindness to which they once subscribed.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:08am
  - GazzaW
    
    Am I wrong in my assumption that Hooton is nothing more nor less than a hired gun. Didn’t he take a Likud funded junket similar to Cam Slater? Not that I have a problem with that as long as it is a declared interest. He does seem to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds at times.
    
    I know very little about the man and maybe someone can put me right. Maybe Hooton can put us all right.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:46am
    - PhilBest
      
      Hooton was once a National Party celebrity. But he’s joined the Resistance and now Vichy doesn’t like him.
      
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      October 25, 2017 9:09am
    - Happychappy
      
      You could always ask Liala Harre I am sure she would know.
      
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      October 25, 2017 9:56am
    - Nermal
      
      Why not discuss what he writes rather than try and cut the man down, even though, as you say you know very little about him. I thought identity politics was the preferred weapon of the left.
      
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      October 25, 2017 1:58pm
  - DifferentPerspective
    
    Sadly PhilBest, it seems like the National party faithful are going to take the “Hillary” option and carry on exactly as they did before. They’ve already used the “we won the FPP election” line and now they’re pushing the “we have to shut up anyone who suggests the emperor isn’t wearing any clothes” line.
    
    The first thing you do to recover from a defeat is to acknowledge that you lost. It’s this insanity which will make it very hard for the Democrats to dislodge Trump in 2020 and I fear that Labour will still be in power after the 2020 election in NZ unless the Nats internalise, analyse and re-set.
    
    The NZ electorate don’t have a history of kicking a party out after their first term, Labour can still use the “we’re cleaning up the awful mess National made” excuse for the next three years.
    
    I know this’ll get the down-ticks and the hate from the two ticks blue rinse regulars, but denial is not a winning strategy.
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:36am
    - Kimbo
      
      @ DifferentPerspective (& Philbest)
      
      denial is not a winning strategy.
      
      National won the campaign, were in a good negotiating position, but lost out – as was always going to be the case without 51% of the seats (with coalition partners) in Parliament. No denying that…nor that National is in a good position to win next time…but nothing is a given. Despite her flakiness and shallowness Ardern has profile and “presents” well. Which is important to winning elections. No use denying it.
      
      But I’m calling you and Philbest out on the moving goal posts. When you say “winning” do you mean the election, or, as per Philbest, “the argument”? Seems you are both playing the shell game with the two. Corner you on how to win one, and you say that lo-and-behold that is not the issue, and you jump to the other.
      
      Also, if winning the next election (and that is what you post implies) entails going rightward as Don Brash did in 2005, kindly answer the question neither of you have, despite my challenge on a number of occasions.
      
      How is that a winning strategy when
      
      1. In 2005 Brash’s National received less votes than Labour (English got more than Labour and the Greens combined)
      
      2…..plus in going rightward ACT Brash neutered ACT, National’s only right-wing coalition partner (before the 2005 election they had 9 seats, after it they had 2!)…and they have been on Epsom-electorate life-support ever since?
      
      So, are you guys interested in winning arguments or elections? Ya pays yer money and takes yer pick if your hit-and-run posts are winning arguments around here – much less the broader public where it counts – but based on the Brash strategy, how do you expect to turf-out the Labour-NZ First-Green government by going rightward? Just stand still and National will look more “right” to the electorate based on what the new government intends!
      
      But couldn’t be bothered down-ticking you. Too much effort. Although you likely deserve it, not so much for your post, but…there is precious little variation on anything you say. Zzzzzz
      
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      October 25, 2017 12:00pm
      - PhilBest
        
        I’m not actually talking about a “could have gone any way” MMP election. I am talking about National’s performance over the last 9 years, which is damnable regardless of whether they had stayed in government this time.
        
        I am sorry for Bill English because he was always more principled about the issues, he was reined in by the Key machine and their politics of expedience. Look at what English used to say about the revision of colonial history, and what he used to say about Council Planners and urban growth boundaries. He was always more of a Don Brash lieutenant than a John Key one.
        
        For example: “We are not going to stand by and let a bunch of planners in an office in Auckland, wreck the macro-economy”. Dead right, Bill. Pity about the Vichy government you were part of.
        
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        October 25, 2017 5:41pm
      - DifferentPerspective
        
        Firstly Kimbo. Huge respect to you for bothering to enter the debate. Pretty much everyone else who disagrees with the diagnosis resorts to personal insults. I believe you are an active-ish National party member, so if there is one who is open to consider other viewpoints then hopefully there are more.
        
        You may indeed be right that a hard shove to the right is not a winning strategy. But equally, I don’t think the drift left is good for the country either. The way of the world has always been (to be over-simplistic and overly-harsh) that there is a cycle in NZ politics (usually):
        – the Left screw things up
        – the Right un-does the screw-ups
        
        (Of course there are notable exceptions – but generally this is the case)
        
        National broke the cycle by drifting left under Key, they didn’t seek to fix the obvious problems caused by the excess of Clark (WFF and free student loans in particular, but there were a host of things that needed re-balancing – ERA for one). There have been unpleasant results of National’s Labour Lite approach, they pushed Labour and the Greens further left. And while this was a good short-term f*** you approach to make Labour bitter, it has inoculated the electorate against the usual revulsion to the excesses of socialism (ie if National are putting up the dole, increasing refugee numbers, siding with the terrorists – then maybe it’s not so bad after all to be a bit more socialist). The result is that now the almost natural cycle of 9-year max in govt has expired – us right-leaning types are about to be assaulted by the most left-wing government we’ve seen here in a long while. 20 years ago, I believe the rampant socialism of Jacinda might not have gotten off the ground. National need to stick when in power to doing what they do best, repairing the damage by reversing stupid expensive policies.
        
        That’s only half the problem though. What really concerns me about National is that they are not attuned to what seems to be becoming normal around the western world in terms of greater success coming the way of a more nationalistic bent to the parties of the right. Trump, Brexit, Geert Wilders, Le Pen, AfD etc. Ironically, National are more globalist than their name might suggest they should be and there are votes to be hoovered with a more nationalistic pride approach (as Jacinda ironically showed – her campaign was much more nationalistic than National’s).
        
        On to leadership. Bill is one of the great political operators of our time. I honestly believe we were saved from the ravages of the GFC by Bill’s steady hand. He was the best political manager in Wellington there’s ever been. But, he is not a political leader. He was the wrong choice. He doesn’t have Key’s charm. The camera is not kind to him the way it is to Jacinda. He’s not fast enough on his feet and he does not inspire. He was there for one reason only, he felt it was his turn – the last person that thought it was “Her turn” didn’t do so well either.
        
        Finally, it must be clear that the top priority for National is to ensure they are never left, as that bitter little Greenie put it “without any friends” after an election ever again. This happens because National still is magnificent at winning FPP campaigns – normally at the expense of their potential partners. The need to fill the void the Greens occupy with an artificial blue-green party.
        
        I’m sure this is TL;DR but you asked. And I think failure to re-invent and bounce back fresher, stronger, leaner and better will be bad for us all.
        
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        October 25, 2017 7:24pm
    - Nermal
      
      I agree with your concern about the National Party blithely sailing on. It’s a valid concept that it’s very hard to fix something if you don’t know what’s actually wrong.
      
      But then it seems to be a world wide trend of political parties doing what they think is best, rather than acting on what people actually want.
      
      Just look at the long list of Labour/NZF and Labour/Green policies listed above. How many people here actually give a toss about most of them.
      
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      October 25, 2017 2:05pm
  - UpandComer
    
    The problem is that if former NZFirst members irate at Winston deciding he seeks the abolishment of capitalism are correct, there are a few ‘right-wing’ blogs getting paid by NZFirst to provide neutral political commentary. You can’t quite know if these opinions are actually genuine, or if they’re like Winston’s faux friendship for Helen Clark that was consummated by the $100,000.00 bribe she organised, facilitated, and executed back in 2005 through Owen Glenn. I hope Hooten spends most of his focus attacking this illegitimate dumb dumb government instead of focusing on what Key did or didn’t do.
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:36am
- Happychappy
  
  Phil can you tell us what Mathew Hooton has said that is worth talking about. No mater what party he talks about leaves a impression that he is a self opinionated arsehole.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:15am
  - holysheet
    
    I am scratching my head trying to make mathew Hooten out of the pseudonym of philbest. Cannot make it fit, but if you take out the crap spouted here it might.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:21am
    - PhilBest
      
      Ha ha ha, no I am not Hooton, I have attacked him in the distant past when he was part of the problem, before he saw the light. I like to think I was a catalyst for that.
      
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      October 25, 2017 8:48am
      - thedavincimode
        
        I like to think I was a catalyst for that.
        
        No, I believe it was in fact the bridge toll protester and wharf walker from Tauranga aka the redbladder.
        
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        October 25, 2017 9:01am
      - Awww C-mon
        
        redbaiter was one of those short sighted bumble fucks that got the bridge tolls removed?
        
        someone slap that prick upside the head for me
        
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        October 25, 2017 9:31am
  - PhilBest
    
    Yeah but it is interesting how someone is excused as long as he is “our” self opinionated arsehole.
    
    https://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2017/10/matthew-hooton-nine-wasted-years/
    
    Matthew Hooton on nine wasted years
    
    “On 18 August, I wrote in the NBR that the outgoing National government “has proven itself over nine years to be lazy, visionless, arrogant, complacent, dishonest and house-trained by the … Wellington bureaucracy.” I stand by that. It has been a wasted nine years with ministers mostly acting as PR spokespeople for their departments rather than leaders. I am surprised by how pleased I am to see the back of them…”
    
    I think he has nailed the problem there. If NZ has a “swamp”, it has pretty much got to run the country for the last 9 years. I recall John Tamihere’s controversial interview years ago, in which he said that when National got back in and tried to reverse anything Helen Clark had done, they would be obstructed and sabotaged and stone-walled at every turn by the bureaucracies which have long since been stacked by lefties and SJW’s. But National under John Key didn’t even try. It makes absolute sense what Hooton is saying now.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:37am
    - Happychappy
      
      I could be wrong but didn’t Hooton fall out with Key and then became Member of the Act Party.
      
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      October 25, 2017 8:45am
    - PhilBest
      
      Well worth a read: John Tamihere’s May 2005 interview:
      
      http://www.investigatemagazine.co.nz/Investigate/13143/tamihere-interview-edited/
      
      “…when you go down through that building [the Beehive] it is infiltrated with it, in key policy and decision making processes and the upper echelons of the ministries, and it skews things, it is an unhealthy weighting, because even if you give a policy directive they’ll skew the policy underneath you…”
      
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      October 25, 2017 8:45am
      - PhilBest
        
        Tamihere on the Left:
        
        “…They don’t have families. They’ve got nothing but the ability to plot. I’ve gotta take my kid to soccer on Saturday, they don’t. So they just go and have a parlez vous francais somewhere and a latte, whereas we don’t get to plot, we’re just trying to get our kids to synchronise their left and right feet. They don’t even think about that.
        I’ve got a fifteen year old whose testosterone’s jumping and he’s scrapping around at school. Now they don’t have that, and because they don’t have that they’re just totally focused. You’ve also got a fully paid organization called the union movement, who can co-opt fully paid coordinators. These people just never sleep…”
        
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        October 25, 2017 8:54am
      - Tauhei Notts
        
        PhilBest,
        Thank you for bringing that Investigate item to our attention.
        
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        October 25, 2017 10:02am
      - PhilBest
        
        The Helen Clark Labour Government’s boat-rocker Tamihere displays a clarity in 2005 that is an object lesson in these sad times of “centre right” Vichy jellyfish.
        
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        October 25, 2017 10:19am
      - tom hunter
        
        The funny thing is that it was that interview – in which he praised John Key as someone who did not scare him and who he would trust with the keys – that caused me to write the following comment on Kiwiblog in 2008:
        
        … what is National going to do should it win this November beyond babysitting the institutions of Labour and the Left. Nursing those things along, tiring all the time and steadily losing votes simply by being in Government and getting blamed for the insanities of those self-same institutions.
        
        Until the day comes, one or two election cycles down the road, when a revitalised Labour gets back into power and gets to push forward some more.
        
        And here we are.
        
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        October 25, 2017 10:29am
      - PhilBest
        
        Mate you are a prophet, Tom Hunter. I started saying the same, much later. In 2008 I was expecting genuine reform from John Key. More fool I.
        
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        October 25, 2017 5:44pm
    - dime
      
      probably not far from the truth.
      
      they def wasted their 9 years. so much political goodwill went unspent.
      
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      October 25, 2017 8:45am
      - tom hunter
        
        Yep – but look at all the downticks for PhilBest’s 8:04am comment – currently running 4up 19down.
        
        National voters just do not want to hear this criticism – and I say that as someone who voted for them.
        
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        October 25, 2017 8:52am
      - tom hunter
        
        Still, I’ve resigned myself to the idea that this is just how it’s going to be. In that sense, tribal fanatics like “flipper” are right.
        
        Hence my planning. 🙂
        
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        October 25, 2017 8:58am
      - Sideoiler
        
        they def wasted their 9 years. so much political goodwill went unspent
        
        Nailed it right there!
        Nats were cruising right up untill the day Comrade Adern was appointed leader.
        National did not get my party vote this election (neither did NZF) and it please’s me greatly that they are sitting in opposition.
        They squandered the greatest amount of political capital ever possesed by a government.
        
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        October 25, 2017 9:29am
      - Classic Liberal
        
        I’m not sure they did much wrong except allowing Auckland to get overpopulated, creating the housing Ponzi scheme. But I do think they did terribly inadequate media work. Now and then a minister, eg for the Environment, would come onto radio and try and explain all the excellent work and plans with farmers and communities. But there wasn’t nearly enough attention in the media to the decent things National was doing. They need to get much better at dealing with a largely hostile MSM.
        
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        October 25, 2017 10:20am
      - PhilBest
        
        Sideoiler, you just wrote the definitive epitaph:
        
        “They squandered the greatest amount of political capital ever possessed by a government.”
        
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        October 25, 2017 10:21am
    - KevOB
      
      The bureaucracy is permanent: governments are transient.
      The first duty of a Permanent Head is to preserve the departmental policies. These are always sound and will keep any government out of trouble. It is only when Ministers think they can run the Dept. and change them difficulties arise.
      
      Grant R. will be assigned a tutor by Treasury to see he acts appropriately.
      
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      October 25, 2017 9:59am
    - Ross12
      
      Phil
      Do really the new Government will clean out the NZ version of the swamp ? Of course it will grow like topsy.
      
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      October 25, 2017 11:04am
      - PhilBest
        
        Of course I don’t expect them to. I expect National to. If National doesn’t, no-one does. That is the tragedy.
        
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        October 25, 2017 5:45pm
      - KevOB
        
        Its not a swamp but a place where amateurs should fear to tread. They won’t be harmed but they won’t assisted either as amateurs.
        
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        October 25, 2017 7:19pm
    - UpandComer
      
      The level of convergence of the NZ Bureaucracy and media is indeed legendary.
      
      That’s why Bill English’s work getting large sections of hostile bureaucracy to support his conceptual and methodological changes to government service delivery needs more recognition.
      
      These people hate National. Hate them. Tamihere’s point boils down to the philosophical inevitability that where the personal is the political, and everything is political, everything is personal. Telling a department that it’s 15th program to reduce rheumatic fever hasn’t fucking worked, again, and shit, there is no way to even measure whether it’s worked, and why hasn’t anyone actually been to the fucking school in Northland, to these people isn’t constructive criticism – it’s a Nazi slapping their newborn baby. How dare you, you evil fascist. Give me money.
      
      Bill ground away for 9 years slowly changing the focus in our largely ineffectual bureaucracy from the institutions to the customer, the spending to the outcomes, the people to the technology, the government process to it’s realization in the awful households filled with feckless really difficult people the chardonnay socialists lionize but never actually spend time with.
      
      I think the level of the achievement can’t be understated. Compared to how it was, when there were 50-60 people running Tana Umanga’s stupid ‘push-play’ thing for $10million which reduced obesity as much as a new neighbourhood McDonalds, and about 5 looking after our largest asset class, state housing, it’s vastly different.
      
      National only gets 45% if it can win the vote of a section of these individuals.
      
      I really do understand the attitude of Hooten. The answers are so obvious, and the intransigence, complacency, rectitude and arrogance about ‘caring’ so infuriating, that the temptation is to cut it all to pieces like the Gordian knot. We get it. We really get it.
      
      But Bill tempered that, and managed to achieve real change by bringing people along with the merit of his ideas rather then use coercion.
      
      He managed to do it facing literally thousands of people who are converged.
      
      That’s the reality of what National has to do, in NZ, to win power.
      
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      October 25, 2017 11:58am
  - Nermal
    
    Good coo entertaining on NewstalkZB that points out National won’t change while Bill and his geriatric cronies remain at the trough.???
    
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    October 25, 2017 2:19pm
  - Nermal
    
    Good commenting on NewstalkZB that points out National won’t change while Bill and his geriatric cronies remain at the trough.???
    
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    October 25, 2017 2:19pm
- James Stephenson
  
  When he’s in tongue-in-cheek obvious wind up mode, he’s amusing, but I ignore his attempts at serious analysis.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:33am
- flipper
  
  Hooton is a click bait shill for the ultra right wing….. the unrealistic dickheads.
  Just crap… because someone pays him to spout his bullshit.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:37am
  - dime
    
    “ultra right wing” lol
    
    is that just to the left of “super dooper right wing”?
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:45am
  - PhilBest
    
    It is so funny how the left throws the term “far right” around with such abandon all the time. They really have no way to describe Ayn Rand, when they ran out of labels back at Matthew Hooton and Roger Douglas and Ian Wishart. It is part of the way the left undermines its own credibility all the time.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:52am
    - treadingthemill
      
      @Phil
      
      It is so funny how the left throws the term “far right” around with such abandon all the time. It is part of the way the left undermines its own credibility all the time.
      
      That could also be said of those calling Jacinda Ardern a communist and warning that we are going to end up like North Korea or Venezuela.
      
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      October 25, 2017 11:56am
      - Gruffydd
        
        Self awareness is somewhat lacking among the wingnuts.
        
        Being a wingnut requires a particularly paranoid worldview, teetering on the edge of or falling wholesale into tinfoil hat territory, as wingnuttery causes the victim to refuse to accept any source of information that doesn’t back up their prejudices (essentially, wingnuts are almost always authoritarian as well as being politically right-wing). Constant gibbering about the “liberal media” as well as a slavish devotion to cognitive dissonance, conspiracy theories, global warming denialism, psychological projection, and crackpot theories of economics (e.g. Austrian school, Social Credit) are also, if not required, at the very least nearly universal symptoms. This is all usually accompanied by a side dish of a severe persecution complex. Not all wingnuts are racists, misogynists, homophobes, or transphobes, though many racists, misogynists, homophobes, and transphobes are also wingnuts.
        
        https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Wingnut
        
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        October 25, 2017 12:26pm
- Liberty
  
  If this Hooten chap wants to post his opinion
  good on him.
  But why should he be treated any different?
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:43am
- s.russell
  
  Hooton is welcome to post here if he wants. Indeed, I think he occasionally does.
  
  If National followed Hooton’s prescription it would gain a large parcel of votes from the disaffected. And lose an even larger parcel from the moderates.
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:54am
  - PhilBest
    
    Can I remind you: if no-one is even making the arguments, ultimately all the voters will be within a range running from “moderates” to rabid Commies. I prefer to call it “capitulating to the Left”.
    
    John Howard once said: “winning the argument is more important than winning the election”. Nails it.
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:24am
    - DifferentPerspective
      
      Well Phil the moment “85” Griff starts swearing at you, you can be certain you are smacking that nail right on the head.
      
      Despite the flurry of downticks from the KoolAid drinkers, it looks like there is a bit of waking up going on to the relative wasted potential of National 2008-17 and the likelihood of more of the same as they bunker down and continue with the Labour Lite strategy.
      
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      October 25, 2017 11:44am
      - Gruffydd
        
        A NZF voter.
        You clearly and demonstrably have no idea about politics.
        That you somehow think you do is laughable .
        For an example.
        I actually voted right .
        You voted for a left wing cluster***k of idiots.
        
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        October 25, 2017 11:55am
  - Gruffydd
    
    They will not gain anything.
    You all vote for National anyway .
    The center wins elections not the fringe like Phil and the conservative nonsense he comes out with.
    Phil is more suited to commenting on redtwits blog with the rest of the tragic fuckwits .
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:51am
    - Kimbo
      
      Yep. As well as trolling those around here who are centre right whom he supposedly wants to “win the argument” as quisling compromisers and traitors. ?
      
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      October 25, 2017 11:02am
    - Ross12
      
      Agree Griff
      
      While I agree with Hooton that cleaning out the bureaucracy would a good thing it will never happen while we have a voting system like MMP.
      Yes, you could a have a go like they did with Foreign Affairs but if they had succeeded in that case it would have been reversed on day one of a new Government.
      As long as election results are so close, as they will always be under MMP, no radical change will occur ( no I’m not advocating a return to FPP). Hooton should understand that.
      
      We have a “swamp” just like DC but I would hope it is no where near as bad.
      
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      October 25, 2017 11:15am
      - Gruffydd
        
        under MMP, no radical change will occur
        
        Indeed.
        The present government will only tinker around the edges.
        All the scaremongering and rubbish about commies posted on here is just noise.
        NZ inc will still be here and still pretty much the same path as always in three years when we return to a right wing government..
        
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        October 25, 2017 11:30am
      - Kimbo
        
        No “radical change” occurs frequently in most nations, as the electorate would not be able to cope. Unless they are dictatorships. Hence, in NZ there have been arguably 3:
        
        1891, the first Liberal government
        1935-38, the reforms of the first Labour government
        1984-87, 91, the reforms of the 4th Labour government until Lange stalled it, and then the first year of the new National government.
        
        And that is it. All these commentators here saying what should be forget one thing – democracy belongs to the people. For good or bad it is their choice. They are not flags to move around on a battle map.
        
        You want to “win the argument” that we should go right-ward as a nation? Then what are you doing wasting your time here preaching to many of the-already converted? 😉
        
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        October 25, 2017 11:39am
      - Ross12
        
        Kimbo
        Perhaps I should have used the word –significant as opposed to radical
        
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        October 25, 2017 7:03pm
    - Nermal
      
      “The center wins elections”
      That’s what Bill English thought. Yet if the 50% of NZF supporters who were supposedly pissed off with his veering to the left had someone else to vote for, he might have actually “won”.
      
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      October 25, 2017 2:27pm
  - Nermal
    
    That’s why we need an alternative party in that large space to the right of National.
    
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    October 25, 2017 2:22pm
    - treadingthemill
      
      The space to the right of National is tiny, as shown by ACT’s 0.5% of the vote.
      
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      October 25, 2017 2:25pm
oldpark

See the low rent morally bankrupt Winston Peters strikes again. This time it more nasty than even for him.
His 65s Gold Card supporters will not get their Bill English promised Superannuation increases. Peters will vote against it.What a betrayal.
He seems to think that a few extra crumbs on an enhanced Gold Card will be adequate to shut the poor old fixed income pensioners up.
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October 25, 2017 8:06am
- VicParking
  
  I see the son of two mothers wants to introduce a transport Green card. Labour will force us to carry a union card. Sorry I don’t have any more space in my wallet. Union card, National party card mmmmm not a hard choice.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:46am
- peterwn
  
  Did he say that at Grey Power meetings he addressed?
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:01am
- KevOB
  
  It doesn’t pay the power bill.
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:01am
  - VicParking
    
    No, but to will be able to travel on a Bus to whykickamoocow any time you like
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:32am
- Paulus
  
  I am assuming that Cinderella is counting on Winston’s health not continuing too well and that within a couple of years he will retire hurt leaving her in a very much stronger position.
  Keep Winston in an aeroplane for long periods of time will certainly not help his health.
  Contrary to some views long term regular plane trips can become very stressful despite modern aircraft, even in first class.
  
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  October 25, 2017 1:38pm
  - Piniwi
    
    True Paulus. Not to forget deep vein thrombosis since arteries will already be struggling.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:58pm
EAD_TWO

Annnnnd it’s started already. The one policy that middle of the road Kiwis support of the new coalition (reducing immigration) is being attacked by the MSM in a co-ordinated fashion as Arden is described as Trump like for wanting to reduce immigration.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/98197005/all-the-us-presidents-men-and-women-and-that-includes-jacinda-ardern

I don’t think there could be many more people in the world less Trump like than Arden but it doesn’t stop them. The agenda is so obvious to all but the most will fully blind.
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October 25, 2017 8:07am
- Inandout
  
  Reduce immigration and increase ‘refugees’ is the Left mantra. An American woman on Garner is crying out for more Tampas, even though many are mentally unstable and most Muslims; funny that. Garner didn’t even whisper the word ‘Christian’.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:12am
  - kowtow
    
    No ,the left mantra is “Smash the Patriarchy”
    
    Why do you think the political establishment did not allow the Swedes a referendum on becoming a “multicultural” society back in the ’70’s, the country Helen admires the most.
    
    And now there is a push back when it got too “multicultural” . Rampant gun , bomb and drug crime , rapes , ghettoes and attacks on police .
    
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    October 25, 2017 9:33am
    - EAD_TWO
      
      You will find this interesting Kowtow on the subject of Sweden becoming multikult:
      
      https://redice.tv/news/how-and-why-sweden-became-multicultural
      
      Excerpt;
      
      As late as 1965, the social democratic Prime Minister of Sweden Tage Erlandersaid: “We Swedes live in an infinitely luckier situation. Our country’s population is homogeneous, not only in terms of race, but also in many other respects.” The demographic transformation of Sweden did not just happen to happen. It was a direct result of political decisions, which in turn could be undertaken because of some actor’s conscious agenda and very active advocacy in the 1960s and 1970s
      
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      October 25, 2017 10:31am
    - Classic Liberal
      
      Ah yes, Sweden, the admirable rape capital of the western world. Lefties in NZ are so ignorant that they haven’t kept track of what is happening in Europe.
      
      As someone who truly supports equal rights for men and women and a safe life for LGTB people, I definitely *don’t* want a violent ideology posing as ‘religion’ to get a foothold in NZ.
      
      I’m really a centrist, but this PoV these days is labelled ‘right wing’.
      
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      October 25, 2017 10:32am
- cmm
  
  There is nothing wrong with immigration of the right sort.
  
  There is absolutely everything wrong with immigration of the wrong sort.
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:45am
  - Classic Liberal
    
    “with immigration of the wrong sort” and wrong quantities.
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:33am
  - Nermal
    
    Right sort: people with western values
    Wrong sort: mainly Muslims
    
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    October 25, 2017 2:31pm
Padriv Ustoev

As you all know, I have an anti immigration stance. But yesterday something happened that completely turned my view around. I am now pro immigration into NZ.
My sister has a 19 year old homestay student. This boy has only been in the country 6 weeks and at the age of 19 he has already done what lazy no good kiwis can’t achieve well into their 30s.
He just bought a house! I now completely understand why we allow overseas students to work and purchase property. This boy is only here for 6 months, but as soon as he got his IRD number, boom! Bough a house. Cool 1.2 mil.
Kiwis are just useless and lazy. Eating all that avacado on toast instead of buying houses. If a Chinese boy who was only in the country for a few weeks can do it, why can’t you?!
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October 25, 2017 8:09am
- EAD_TWO
  
  And no doubt he’s here to do the jobs Kiwis are too lazy to do
  
  We can all learn something from this hardworking Kiwi (he’s got an IRD number so he’s one of us now) who can probably speak pigeon English at best.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:13am
  - Padriv Ustoev
    
    No, I’m pretty sure he’s not interested in that. His parents have a factory in Guangzhou and he says NZ is boring and he would rather run a factory and make millions than work in NZ and get paid fuck all. But he does plan to get dual citizenship.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:17am
    - EAD_TWO
      
      I should have added /sarc.
      
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      October 25, 2017 8:21am
    - RF
      
      Does he have any brothers and sisters. I have some army surplus tents I could sell them.
      
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      October 25, 2017 8:39am
    - GoVege
      
      Bet their factory has suicide nets outside…..oh maybe not.
      (Probably only silly western companies bother with those.)
      
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      October 25, 2017 9:45pm
  - Scott Hamilton
    
    ‘who can probably speak pigeon English at best’
    
    I must learn some of this curious ‘pigeon English’? Is it related to the language St Francis used when he preached to the birds?
    
    For a defender of the English tongue EAD has a pretty shaky grip of spelling.
    
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    October 25, 2017 6:08pm
- Nigel Kearney
  
  We got $1.2 million that we didn’t have before. The NZer who sold the house now has that money and is very likely investing it in our economy creating jobs and generating profits here instead of in China.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:23am
  - EAD_TWO
    
    We got $1.2 million that we didn’t have before
    
    You seem to think fiat money is a finite resource. Also, where is that person going to live? He’ll have to buy an overinflated house, so on and so forth until somewhere in the chain an overseas bank gets the money it created out of thin air back.
    
    The NZer who sold the house now has that money and is very likely investing it in our economy creating jobs
    
    You have a very deluded view if you think the average seller of a 3 bed bungalow in suburban Auckland is going to be some kind of job making machine with his new found wealth.
    
    Meanwhile, owning a home gets further and further out of reach for young Kiwi families who can’t compete with hot money like this.
    
    Why don’t we just end the charade and sell off the entire country so we can be all be tenants in the land our forefathers fought and died for.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:45am
    - s.russell
      
      Simple solution: build an extra house to meet the increased demand. Then everyone wins.
      
      2 4
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      October 25, 2017 9:57am
      - EAD_TWO
        
        One house does not make a difference S. Russell but when it’s hundreds of thousands of houses – urban infill, all of a sudden we’re talking about serious congestion, more displacement, more pressure on services, less export earning farmland, increased alienation.
        
        The wealthiest countries on a per head basis always tend to be small and homogenous. Why are we destroying what gave us all those #1 rankings in the lists DPF shares on here?
        
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        October 25, 2017 10:37am
  - Jack5
    
    Investing – yep investing in a chain of fast food outlets. Boosts exports greatly.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:49am
    - kowtow
      
      Keeps the strays under control.
      
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      October 25, 2017 9:27am
  - PhilBest
    
    And he will be paying in the cost of land for a business, or rents for business space, what he gained in inflated residential property sale price. This is a zero-sum Ponzi game.
    
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    October 25, 2017 9:01am
    - PhilBest
      
      And he’s still got to live somewhere…..!
      
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      October 25, 2017 9:16am
  - MH
    
    the NZer was probably Asian as well, the gang that built the house and all the skilled workers were paid in cash- being Asian they insisted on it. Most of the material for the house came from China, incl the cement and steel. The money for the house was sanctioned by the PRC.
    
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    October 25, 2017 4:02pm
- waikatogirl
  
  Sounds like daddy paid for his house. Lots of “students” from rich Chinese families come to NZ. That’s fine with me, excellent result for whoever he bought the house off. Your student can now rent it out to pay for his fees. Great for your sister to have a motivated student living with her.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:27am
  - Padriv Ustoev
    
    Yes… The short term gains are great. Who cares about the fabric of society. I certainly don’t give two shits about the people who have been in NZ for decades. We need an influx of foreign culture and money. Totally agree with you.
    Also the few dollars students like that throw to people like my sister helps with her crippling mortgage. It’s her stupid fault she’s decided to get a mortgage anyway.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:30am
    - waikatogirl
      
      ??
      Love your work Padriv. Now out you go to round up your camels for the days work.
      
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      October 25, 2017 8:52am
      - Padriv Ustoev
        
        I’m so glad that the women of waikato have a good grasp of economics, history and have deep foresight. We need more people like you to help run the country.
        
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        October 25, 2017 11:43am
    - Jack5
      
      Padriv, can’t you see it’s great that we allow Chinese Communist oligarchs (and much lesser rich Reds) to buy their children homes in NZ – Mum and Pop can’t buy the kid land in China, so NZ is one of the choices.
      
      Padriv, you don’t think, do you that, the Dad may be in the Chinese electronic-intelligence network do you? If so, sign the kid up for the National Party. ?
      
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      October 25, 2017 8:53am
    - Classic Liberal
      
      “Who cares about the fabric of society. ”
      
      I do, very much. I know many Korean and Chinese immigrants. They work hard, make their children really work at school, are many of our best classical musicians, and are polite and family oriented. And, on average, very bright. Last time I had to visit hospital almost all the young doctors were Asian. Good on them for working hard and being intelligent.
      
      The Koreans also tend to be Christians, which even as an atheist I much prefer to islam.
      
      While I don’t think we should continue the housing Ponzi scheme, if we are going to have immigrants, these are the ones we need.
      
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      October 25, 2017 10:43am
      - Padriv Ustoev
        
        Did you not read my story? The kid doesn’t want to live in NZ. It’s boring and pay is shit. He just needs to park family money somewhere.
        
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        October 25, 2017 11:45am
      - GoVege
        
        And they eat cats…
        
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        October 25, 2017 9:38pm
      - GoVege
        
        I mean dogs….possibly both…
        
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        October 25, 2017 9:40pm
      - realityczech
        
        Well said Classic.
        
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        October 25, 2017 9:43pm
      - realityczech
        
        I eat pussy Vege Head. Deal with it.
        
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        October 25, 2017 9:43pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  Not with money earned here, isn’t that story and others like it the problem?
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:32am
- Sir Cullen's Sidekick
  
  That Chinese bro might have been funded by a Chinese bank. How the hell a student can buy a 1.2M house? This is unbelievable.
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:34am
  - Padriv Ustoev
    
    His parents bought it for him as soon as he got an IRD number.
    It’s not even fun writing satire any more. Do I have to spell everything out for people now? FFS how naive can you people be?!
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:47am
    - GoVege
      
      Your satire is WAAAAAY too subtle Padriv … 🙂
      
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      October 25, 2017 9:42pm
      - realityczech
        
        Vege shouldn’t you be in bed pleasuring your man ?
        
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        October 25, 2017 10:00pm
    - realityczech
      
      “FFS how naive can you people be?!”
      
      These are simple folk Paddy 🙂
      
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      October 25, 2017 9:59pm
- Dave Mann
  
  I quite like the Chinese language and culture and I think they’re probably a positive influence in NZ…. but surely you can see what happened here? The boy is acting as a surrogate for his parents who are desperate to get their money out of China to a safe haven where the Chinese government (or possibly anti corruption investigators, I couldn’t possibly say) can’t get at them.
  
  Surely you’re not so naive as to believe that this guy is just a hardworking immigrant?
  
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  October 25, 2017 12:57pm
- btb
  
  He was sent here to buy property for his rich parents and get an IRD number so they could launder money off shore. Or what bank in NZ would lend him 1.2 million? He is more than just a homestay student. Money doesn’t grow on trees.
  
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  October 25, 2017 6:35pm
pdm

It took Michael Cullen 8 years to take a booming economy into recession a year ahead of the rest of the world.

The question now is how long will it take `The Hydra’ under the dictates of Ardern, Peters and Robertson to do the same.

My guess is a maximum of two years – if they survive that long.
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October 25, 2017 8:10am
- Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
  
  Comrade, you are mistaken. We are now on the path to glorious equality for all, and within a mere 100 days, such is the glorious glory of our Dear Leader.
  
  Remain where you are and a Re-Education officer will be with you shortly.
  
  That is all.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:16am
  - Nukuleka
    
    PDPRA: I sincerely hope that you are going to keep this up because angry but humorous ridicule is the best way to confront the lunacy that Peters has created and which we must endure for at least the next 3 years.
    
    Get it out onto social media please!!
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:06am
    - Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
      
      Comrade Nukuleka, Dearest Leader intends to follow the Susan Wojcicki model, where social media platforms like youtube exist solely for the the advancement of the great and glorious revolution, slowly suffocating the capitalist pigs into oblivion with ‘Adpocolypses’ and ‘mass flagging’ actions. You can find out how to get involved from your local Comrade Commissar.
      
      And get back to work, that is all.
      
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      October 25, 2017 1:12pm
- Poppa
  
  They have a wish list not a plan. On that basis it will take quite a while to implement the disaster we know is coming.
  
  So the Greens & Winston First voted with National for the tax cuts & now they will vote to reverse them. That in itself shows how unprincipled they both are
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:17am
  - Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
    
    Comrade Poppa,
    
    We find your lack of faith disturbing. Rest assured that glorious Dear Leader will wipe away the last remnants of neoliberalism, for safe and secure democracy.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:27am
- sooty
  
  He got a knighthood for it as well. By the time Whinny has retired he will deserve two!
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:41am
  - peterwn
    
    He should have covered Honours in his agreement. I suspect there will be no New Years Honours List at all let alone knighthoods. So Winston is likely to be out of luck.
    
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    October 25, 2017 9:05am
- VicParking
  
  30 months, it will all fall to custard over the 2019 budget.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:49am
  - Shaun the Sheep
    
    It’ll take that long to discover the hole?
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:22am
    - VicParking
      
      No that long for them to fall down it
      
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      October 25, 2017 10:35am
- PhilBest
  
  At least it was Cullen’s clear responsibility, the Ponzi property bubble (bad enough as it was then) had developed under several years of his watch, and his ideological mates in the Councils were responsible for it.
  
  Now it is John Key’s much bigger property bubble, and I am not going to be so expediently partisan as blame whoever is unlucky enough to be in office when its inevitable burst happens.
  
  https://croakingcassandra.com/2016/07/28/a-couple-of-cartoons/
  
  “…There are no totally easy or fail-safe ways to unwind the disaster that the New Zealand – especially Auckland – housing market has become. But this is a clear example where the sooner it happens the better. If house prices rose sharply one day and were reversed the next, almost no one suffers. If prices rise sharply for six months and then fully reverse, a few people will have difficulty – but the losses will be isolated and limited, posing no sort of systemic threat. But if real house prices stay at current levels for the next 20 years, most of the housing stock will have been purchased (and borrowed against to finance) at today’s incredibly high prices. There will have been a massive real wealth transfer to this generation of sellers (sellers, not owners). And that transfer itself simply can’t be unwound no matter what happens to house prices. If house prices were to fall now, there has still been quite a redistribution, but four years of turnover is quite different from 20 years of turnover…”
  
  If no-one bursts it before the end of the current cycle, i.e. 2022-2025, it has to happen then, and no policy will be capable of stopping it.
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:05am
- UrbanNeocolonialist
  
  Business confidence will dive before then, unemployment will start to rise very soon. The housing bubble has already started to deflate and will lead to loss of consumer confidence. Recession in 2018.
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:27am
- Nermal
  
  That’s one good thing about socialists. They’re pretty useless at everything they do. So this will take them a while.
  
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  October 25, 2017 2:34pm
  - MH
    
    no we have a monopoly board to guide us with warnings about what not to do i.e. do not pass Go until you collect 200 refugees…
    
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    October 25, 2017 4:06pm
gorse

I sometimes cast my eye over Whaleoil. Giving up doing that. They seem anti National, and Bill English in particularl. They may as well submit their articles to the Standard. What’s pissed them off?
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October 25, 2017 8:12am
- Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
  
  Comrade Slater has been successfully assimilated into the collective.
  
  Resistance is futile.
  
  That is all.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:19am
- alloytoo
  
  Probably Bill’s mature approach to going into opposition.
  
  Many in the media want Bill to come out guns blazing.
  
  However have having watched that approach from Goff, Shearer, Cunliffe, & Little, Bill has no doubt observed that AK47’s rarely hit their targets, whereas sniper rifles are far more effective.
  
  While the government is revelling in it’s unseemly lolly scramble Bill is staying on message, remaining relentlessly positive and patiently waiting his shot.
  
  National in opposition looks disciplined and fit. That’s what’s going to retain New Zealand’s confidence.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:22am
  - Victor Omega
    
    Ahhh rubbish. Bill simply lacks fervour and passion! While the rest of the world looks on in disbelief at this sham of an “election”, Bill’s advice to his people is, “oh well, BOHICA.”
    He should be banging the table as the voice of reason in this mess.
    
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    October 25, 2017 9:23am
    - Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
      
      Comrade, Dear Leader has decreed that “Bend Over Here It Comes Again” and it’s acronym are no longer an acceptable public expression of the glorious wealth redistribution plan.
      
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      October 25, 2017 9:51am
      - VicParking
        
        The worrying bit is that it will be Robertson’s finger.
        
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        October 25, 2017 10:37am
      - Don the Kiwi
        
        Finger???
        
        “Hey – get your finger out of there, and quit foolin’.”
        “It ain’t my finger, and I ain’t foolin’.”
        
        7 0
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        October 25, 2017 11:38am
    - MH
      
      and throwing shoes across the floor. Gucci gucci yea yer yere.
      
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      October 25, 2017 4:08pm
  - s.russell
    
    Just like those who criticised Bill for not verbally abusing Jacinda more during the campaign: as if that would have gained National more votes.
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:02am
- oldpark
  
  Yes not so long ago that WO blog site was attacking Winston Peters and describing him on an almost daily basis,as the “unemployed pensioner from St Marys Bay” I think WO got the message from Peters. How would he like another claim for defamation,to go with the other two or three doing the legal rounds of NZ at the moment.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:25am
  - Souvlaki
    
    I suspect he/the WO blog was a paid “customer “of WP/NZ First. Nothing else rationalises the complete about face, or the ignoring of Peter’s dishonesty going back many years. Wheres the $158,000?
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:54am
    - s.russell
      
      I think it is that WO is (like Winston) motivated by emotional reactions not thoughtful analysis (which is only used when it backs your emotional reaction). WO loves Judith and hates Bill. Things like policy come second to that, hence his volte-face.
      
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      October 25, 2017 10:05am
- plc
  
  Harbouring grudges from the turn of the century.
  
  Slater is coming across as very sad. He offers nothing positive and now admits he voted NZ First in some sort of utu against Bill English.
  
  National apparently did nothing right in their nine years….except guided us through the GFC, rebuilt Christchurch, cut taxes, increased benefits for the first time in 43 years, introduced National Standards and Charter Schools, reversed the migration to Australia….but yeah Cameron, they did nothing.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:29am
  - flipper
    
    Ahhhhh…
    But they downgraded the toxic one….
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:45am
  - RF
    
    Must admit WO was my second port I visited after KB. I even had a log in ID.
    
    Alas no more… what a bitter and twisted idiot he is.
    
    There was also the promise of a ground breaking disclosure that never eventuated.
    
    I do belong to the standard and manage to keep under the radar apart from the odd warning from an old weka.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:49am
    - Im Right
      
      Weka is becoming more and more isolationist, only lefties can post on her threads etc….she will be the main reason TS becomes an echo chamber only. TDB posts about 7 or so threads a day and only a handful of comments, becoming irrelevent!
      
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      October 25, 2017 9:05am
  - oldpark
    
    Yes being Fijian Born perhaps he could use his type of skills to enhance the well being of his brothers in Fiji. Maybe even give us long suffering NZs protection from his becoming more and more fake news in his propaganda and biased type of ‘news” outlet ,and relief from his begging bowl.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:50am
  - Poppa
    
    Slater has gone dog on National since John Key apparently threw him under the bus. I don’t know why he has such a hate of Bill but he did go all out promoting Judith for the leader.
    
    Whilst I like Judith I doubt the voters would give her enough support to win.
    
    In my opinion his blog is not as good as it was even a couple of years ago. I can’t put my finger on why that is really
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:42am
    - Paulus
      
      Agreed his blog is nothing like a couple of years ago – when he kicked me out for no reason I know – but I don’t wish to be associated anyway – I believe he is becoming paranoid and delusional.
      Sad really, thank goodness for SB.
      
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      October 25, 2017 1:48pm
- VicParking
  
  He’s going broke, no money in blogs and he is having his arse sue’d off. Pressure is building, WO needs another of his long holidays.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:50am
  - Happychappy
    
    The sheep will pay for it, they will have a begging bowl out before Xmas.
    
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    October 25, 2017 9:07am
    - VicParking
      
      He has at least three begging ‘bowel’, articles each day
      
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      October 25, 2017 10:39am
  - KevOB
    
    He may be in strife too with the Judiciary over his campaign against a retired judge who used his honorific without WO’s OK.
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:12am
- thedavincimode
  
  Aunty Judith getting a slap for being silly.
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:04am
- PhilBest
  
  Whaleoil are just consistent right wingers. When a “right wing” politician has sold out on principle, they criticise them just as much or even more so than they criticise a left wing politician of whom nothing better can be expected.
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:07am
- peterwn
  
  AFAIK Cam has been anti Bill English ever since his dad lost re-election for National Party President in the early 2000’s. Then Cam has been talking up Winston Peters on the basis he would ‘modify’ National’s policy on immigration etc, and assuming Winston would never go into coalition with the Greens (and hence Labour/ Greens). And when Winston chose Labour/ Greens, Cam has been blaming Bill English for botching the negotiations and in particular for refusing Winston’s gazump attempt at 4pm last Thursday. So now Cam has effectively aided and abetted the formation of what is arguably NZ’s craziest government – it makes Helen Clarks government seem tame in comparison, but is trying to blame it all on Bill English.
  So as far as Whaleoil is concerned my wallet stays shut – there is another reason but I cannot quite bring myself round to giving it.
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:17am
- sam green
  
  “What’s pissed them off?”
  
  They stopped being paid.
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:17am
- UpandComer
  
  Whaleoil apparently runs the editorial lines that he’s paid to run.
  
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  October 25, 2017 12:04pm
- lifesgood
  
  What pissed WO off was that he wanted Judith Collins as leader, Bill English is Catholic therefore hated by WO’s religion and Bill English and the National Party have wisely refused to deal with him. He carries grudges. I used to look in but now do very rarely. It’s become a hobby horse for WO’s bitterness. Apart from that you can’t even say damn or pissed off or you have the over zealous moderators banning you. One redeeming feature is that WO has a lovely wife who does make some excellent posts.
  
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  October 25, 2017 12:08pm
Paulus

I wonder whether people realise that the cooperation agreements put fprward yaesterday only cover this – their cooperation with the Labour Party.
This does not cover what the overall and specific details that Labour will instigate, such as new taxes, new Unionisation, ie that which they said they would do if elected, and at what cost. Remember Robertson and Ganesh Nana’s figures were totally underestimated despite what the media say.
Remember Cullen told Treasury to leave out the unfunded ACC $2 Billion deficit before.
As they never thought they would be in Government they made many rash uncosted costs which are now having to be revealed – probably not until the next budget so they will remain hidden till then eg Teachers 12.5% wage increase.
I cannot find in the media that the tax reduction and pensions automatic corresponding increases legislated by Parliament – including the Greens is still to be scrapped. This has to be done by new legislation but of course we have a Labour Government so anything is possible.
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October 25, 2017 8:15am
PhilBest

Interesting items in the latest GWPF newsletter. It is actually common sense, but I hadn’t spotted anyone saying it before about “renewable energy”. The upfront capital costs are massive relative to the energy generation capacity over its lifetime. Something like 20 times greater than the capital required for coal fired power stations. This is greatly constraining the ability to finance the provision of added capacity in national grids. And this is especially bad for “developing nations” who are struggling to obtain finance, against PC transnational organisation rules that dictate that only “sustainable” energy be financed these days. As the developing world’s politicians are pointing out, it is all very well for the developed world with its existing base of “bad” energy generation, to impose rules like this on itself, but it is a game-changer for the developed world in trying to bring energy to its population in the first place.

The rules are apparently so PC that they can’t even get funding for no-brainer hydro projects (because of environmental impact, wah wah wah). It is wind and solar or nothing. Nice anti-competitive ploy by the developed world, huh? We can’t have Africa and India becoming the next China, can we?
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October 25, 2017 8:16am
- PhilBest
  
  And dare I add, there is often nothing so racist in practice, as political correctness!
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:18am
  - Classic Liberal
    
    “there is often nothing so racist in practice, as political correctness!”
    
    Yep, including anti semitic. And sexist and anti gay. As Geert Wilders keeps pointing out about growing islamic power in Europe, allowed in by PC idiots.
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:13am
- calendar girl
  
  Would be helpful to have a link to the newsletter itself.
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:32am
  - PhilBest
    
    Ta for asking
    
    https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.co.nz/2017/10/gwpf-newsletter-worlds-first-offshore.html
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:28am
- KevOB
  
  Ignorant greenists would starve the underdeveloped world of energy because they believe they are more precious. Self righteousness, self affirmed. How will they be excused when cooling comes and they have denied preparedness?
  The UK is becoming aware that there may be trouble ahead. South Australia has already experienced the unreasonable cutback on energy.
  
  Why should the least be denied eyesight from having to cook over open fires? Humanity is world wide. Greens are a European luxury.
  
  The signs are there that green warming alarmism may be completely misplaced. The cold predicted in 1972 never came about. Public policy should be more carefully considered.
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:31am
- Ross12
  
  The World Bank had it’s annual talkfest in DC recently. Here are a couple of unhappy “campers” who backs up what Phil is talking about
  
  “Indian government minister Piyush Goyal, for example, could have been speaking for Zimbabwe or any developing country when he said, ‘The people of India want a certain way of life. They want jobs for their children, schools and colleges, hospitals with uninterrupted power.”
  Solar, he complained, only worked when the sun is shining.
  “We need a very large amount of baseload power and this can only come from coal.
  ‘They’re saying to us, we’re sorry but you Indians can only have power for eight hours a day. The rest of the time you must live in darkness’…
  
  But the frustration of many in Africa might be summed up by Nigerian finance minister, Kemi Adeosun.
  “We want to build a coal power plant,” Mrs Adeosun said.
  “However, we are being blocked from doing so, because it is not green.”
  
  Great opportunity for China or Russia or any other non PC power to extend their global influence –go in a built a few coal fired power stations
  
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  October 25, 2017 11:29am
- Gruffydd
  
  I hadn’t spotted anyone saying it before about “renewable energy”. The upfront capital costs are massive relative to the energy generation capacity over its lifetime
  
  No shit Sherlock
  
  Coal plants dont work without a constant fuel supply.
  You need to keep paying for coal for the life of the project. As well you have a significant maintenance burden.
  The plant cost is only a down payment on the eventual energy production.
  
  I love that the GWPF are pointing out an obsolete wind farm from twenty years ago was still braking even .
  The costs have decreased significantly since then and the technology is a lot more efficient.
  https://www.awea.org/falling-wind-energy-costs
  Coal can not compete with renewables
  Coal is a zombie industry.
  
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  October 25, 2017 11:48am
  - Ross12
    
    Well keep an eye Australia Griff and we’ll see who wins the argument.
    
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    October 25, 2017 1:07pm
    - Gruffydd
      
      I will in the end .
      That is a certainty.
      You do understand the difference between an mature technology and emerging ones?
      Renewable’s are falling in price as scale ramps up and technology advances.
      The cost of coal if anything is increasing.
      Renewables and fossil fuel generation are already at parity now.
      
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      October 25, 2017 1:32pm
      - 4077th
        
        Coal prices increasing..that seems wrong and not in line with your thinking so here is the data.
        
        http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/coal/5-year/
        
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        October 25, 2017 2:09pm
      - Ed Snack
        
        Renewables are nothing near parity ! Remove the subsidies and almost all “renewable” energy schemes would collapse. Open your eyes, if the dope smoke hasn’t closed them permanently.
        
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        October 25, 2017 3:41pm
      - Gruffydd
        
        ROFL
        Ed the drunk I do keep my eyes open .
        https://www.lazard.com/media/438038/levelized-cost-of-energy-v100.pdf
        As always a I can back my opinion from a reputable source rather than mumbling rubbish like a piss soaked halfwit.
        I know its hard for you ignorant Luddite .
        The coal age is dead
        Now fuck off like a good wee alky and guzzle some more piss before the dt’s catch up to you .
        
        Ps 4077 the cost of coal generation over all not just the fuel is under discussion.
        
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        October 25, 2017 5:29pm
      - treadingthemill
        
        Gruffydd is right. Renewable’s in a short time will be cost effective, and with the pace of technological development there is every reason to believe that we will be able to replace fossil fuels with all new forms of energy production. We cannot continue indefinitely on the path we are on. The Earth is our home, not our rubbish dump.
        
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        October 25, 2017 5:49pm
      - Gruffydd
        
        treadingthemill Open the link.
        It has a nice wee picture called a graph on the second page.
        Commercial Solar and on shore wind are already the cheapest option. Their costs are still falling. Domestic solar is also cheap when it doesn’t compete with the wholesale market. Use the power you generate from your own roof and you save money.
        
        We have a large number of bewildered Luddites on this forum. Idiots who get their science from fringe whack blogs like brietbart.
        
        The world moved on from the stone age when we developed better technology the same will happen with the fossil fuel age.
        
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        October 25, 2017 6:05pm
  - KevOB
    
    The sun turn off the solar voltaic systems as it wills.
    
    Wind power extract energy from air current flow–there are down stream affects.
    
    Except nuclear coal is an energy packed bundle.
    
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    October 25, 2017 4:06pm
oldpark

More illusion and confusion on the so called $20 per hour for some wage earners. That will be paid in 2021. Big deal.Peters and gang will not be the one paying it.Employers will.
Wage earners have also been shafted by the 3 stooges cabal.
The promised tax increases legislated by Bill English and National Party will not take place.An amount of Two Billion Dollars tax deductions will be gouged off wage earners. They just wont get them.
Maybe many of the voters who were sucked in voting for the three headed gang of no hopers,will by now have woken up to the fact that there is nothing in the coalition deals for them.
Yet plenty ,plenty for Peters/ Ardern/ Shaw.Voters have been done like a dinner.
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October 25, 2017 8:17am
- Poppa
  
  Totally agree with you.
  
  So what about the guy already earning $21 per hour? He will want to retain relativity & then it will spiral all the way through the payroll.
  
  As an employer I can tell you that will have a very big effect on future employment. There can be only one result, higher inflation, higher unemployment & probably strikes.
  
  Thank you Cindy
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:28am
  - Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
    
    Comrade Poppa, Dear Glorious Leader will decree that all comrades will earn $20/hour. This will end the gender wage gap, eradicate poverty and achieve equality for all.
    
    Are you in need of re-education, comrade Poppa?
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:39am
    - VicParking
      
      Pay the ‘unwashed’ more, this plus relativity will put up costs, the unwashed will want more, on and on we go.
      Tax less, reduce governments costs, everyone gains.
      Venezuela here we come.
      
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      October 25, 2017 8:55am
      - Digmen1
        
        Yes, we have one of the highest minimum wages in the world already.
        In the USA and Canada its about $10
        Chile and Argentina is $7
        China is $4.00
        
        It will just make us a higher cost uncompetive country
        
        It would be far better to reduce our costs, so that we all have more money in our pockets – groceries, rates, electricity, etc
        
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        October 25, 2017 9:17am
      - Rich Prick
        
        Venezuela just hiked the minimum wage by 60%. They must all be very rich.
        
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        October 25, 2017 11:46am
    - MH
      
      That isn’t “OIL” comraid ? You mean sunbeds don’t run by solar means? Nurse, bring me a macron.
      
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      October 25, 2017 4:15pm
- flipper
  
  Mnnnn…
  May be the $29 is BS window dressing.
  It is now, what, $15.60 and due to go to $16.25 in April. Will increase under current (English) policy by about 75c-85c p/hr for next 3 years. So that will mean st least $18.75 by 2020. The increase will be buried by spreading $1.25 over three years. Sounds great, until the flow-on effects are factored. Result: Fucked small businesses, increased C O L, and massive tax and borrowing increases by the Peters/Ardern regime, and silly Loc Govts.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:57am
  - Classic Liberal
    
    Comrade Taxina was on Nat Radio news in a soundbite this morning assuring us that ‘SMEs’ would be helped [how??] with these wage increases. Anyone hear the full interview? Was she asked about wage relativity and inflation?
    
    Then they read out several nasty twitters such as ‘if your business will fail because of these increases, you’re no good at your business’.
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:18am
- HB
  
  Will it mean taxpayers paying less WFF? As people’s incomes increase they will be entitled to a smaller payment. Therefore isn’t this a good thing? Afterall, I have read many times on here that it is not the taxpayers job to subsidise employers. Less WFF means less tax needed and a tax cut.
  Or am I being too hopeful here?
  
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  October 25, 2017 11:15am
- HB
  
  Will it mean taxpayers paying less WFF? As people’s incomes increase they will be entitled to a smaller payment. Therefore isn’t this a good thing? Afterall, I have read many times on here that it is not the taxpayers job to subsidise employers. Less WFF means less tax needed and a tax cut.
  Or am I being too hopeful here?
  
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  October 25, 2017 11:16am
Captain Mainwaring

Migration has already turned around and more are heading back to Australia. When this gathers momentum the housing crisis will be miraculously solved and the coalition of losers will be claiming a victory.
And when will the NZ dollar hit the floor? US 65 cents, 52 cents or 46 cents?
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October 25, 2017 8:19am
- dime
  
  hopefully no lower than 65.. Dimes lifestyle may take a hit otherwise!
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:51am
  - Captain Mainwaring
    
    Good luck with that dime.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:57am
Odakyu-sen

The Herald reports that New Zealand First and Labour agreed to ban foreigners from buying existing homes, strengthen the Overseas Investment Act and set-up a comprehensive register of foreign-owned land and housing.

So, foreigners can still buy brand-new houses, then?
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October 25, 2017 8:26am
- Jack5
  
  Surely they mean overseas residents, rather than “foreigners”, Odakyu-sen.
  
  Perhaps like Singapore, where you need to be a resident for five years.
  
  I think this is the position in Australia (from an Australian real estate web site):
  
  While temporary residents can invest in new property, they can only buy one existing residential property and must use it as their primary residence. If they’re not living in it they must sell it. However, foreign investors can buy new properties or vacant land in Australia.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:45am
  - VicParking
    
    Thats one of the issues, so far most of their policies are vague and dont really explain in any detail.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:58am
- noskire
  
  And what’s stopping “foreigners/overseas residents” buying an existing property in the name of their New Zealand lawyer or trust?
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:47am
  - EAD_TWO
    
    And what’s stopping “foreigners/overseas residents” buying an existing property in the name of their New Zealand lawyer or trust?
    
    The political will to act in New Zealanders best interests.
    
    “We will not allow to become a political issue in this country the question of Asianisation”.Bob Hawke
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:55am
  - Jack5
    
    ? Perhaps they’re scared the lawyer will rip them off, or perhaps they suspect the new government will clean up the trusts regime.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:58am
  - waikatosinger
    
    Yes you are quite right – it won’t work. But Labour doesn’t care about that – they just want to virtue signal. It doesn’t matter to them if a policy isn’t effective or has negative side effects. Look at their stupid water tax idea. Same thing.
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:30am
- EAD_TWO
  
  @ Odakyu Sen,
  
  Off topic but I’m curious – does the Japanese Government and the people that run the MSM call the Japanese people out for “Japanese Supremicism”.
  
  Are the Japanese people repeatedly told by said Pollies and journalists that they are “racist” and not diverse enough?
  
  http://irishsavant.blogspot.co.nz/2017/10/the-war-against-whites.html?m=0
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:53am
  - Odakyu-sen
    
    EAD_TWO,
    
    It’s more subtle than that. The Japanese are aware that elements of their government are wrestling with the issues of a declining birthrate and an aging workforce.
    Japanese newspapers will carry articles reporting that such-and-such a politician or researcher has said that “Japan needs to do _____” in order to address these problems.
    I don’t think that Japan has got to the stage that many Western countries are at, where there is already significant immigration.
    
    Here is one example from the left-leaning Asahi Shimbun. http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201707270006.html
    
    And another from the Guardian
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/26/japan-under-pressure-to-accept-more-immigrants-as-workforce-shrinks
    
    It helps if you think of the Japanese mindset as closer to that of the Swiss with regards to foreigners and integration into society. There is a deeply entrenched sense of “us” and “the outsiders” in Japanese society, but I think you already know that.
    
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    October 25, 2017 9:24am
    - 4077th
      
      As a regular visitor to Japan, I like that fact that it is mostly all Japanese people. I also visit Belgium on a yearly basis, I don’t like Belgium and I definitely do not feel safe there. Japan on the other hand, I have never felt safer anywhere on the planet.
      
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      October 25, 2017 2:17pm
  - Odakyu-sen
    
    EAD_TWO,
    
    I shall indulge you.
    
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/japan-shinzo-abes-government-has-a-thing-about-hitler-it-likes-him
    
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    October 25, 2017 9:33am
    - Jack5
      
      Wow!
      
      Become an NZ citizen, Odakyu-sen, put roots down here.
      
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      October 25, 2017 9:51am
- SPC
  
  Yes.
  
  The Oz policy is the same, foreigners can only buy new builds – if they finance new builds they are not bidding up the price of existing homes.
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:52am
  - PhilBest
    
    Oz still has one of the world’s worst problems with housing unaffordability. There is one factor that is the biggest decider, all the other stuff about tax and immigrant rules and credit and interest rates and whatever, is peripheral. The one factor is urban planning.
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:31am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Are ‘we’ foreigners in Australia in that sense?
    
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    October 25, 2017 4:39pm
- MH
  
  They are building them for themselves. I’d love to see the names on the consent forms, but of course they are one of us and generally make good law abiding citizens.
  
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  October 25, 2017 4:20pm
plc

So 700,000 earn $20 per hour or less but the impact is far far more.

A rise in minimum wage from 15.75 to 20.00 over four years equates to 6.2%p.a. pay rise.

Who thinks the Unions won’t seek relativity for all their members?

Inflationary spiral here we come?

But I’m sure Grant, James and Winston understand the intricacies of matching wage growth to productivity.
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October 25, 2017 8:41am
- Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
  
  Comrade plc,
  Productivity will reach unimaginable levels once all “private” enterprises are compulsorily nationalised and the work assignments are issued. My comrades, we shall Make New Zealand Glorious Again!
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:50am
  - UrbanNeocolonialist
    
    Bloody oath, everyone knows that capitalism and neoliberalism have failed*
    
    *To deliver the means of production into the hands of the workers
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:38am
    - MH
      
      that should read reproduction.
      
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      October 25, 2017 4:22pm
  - VicParking
    
    Have you a flag?, I have a flag pole.
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:44am
- KevOB
  
  Grant may need some understanding that increased wages means increased foreign exchange demands.
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:38am
- Paulus Gnome
  
  $15.75 to $20.00 in 2020 is an increase of $4.24
  
  $4.25 as a % of $15.25 is 27%; the pay rise is 27% more than what they currently receive for turning up.
  
  I will be asking Management what is the plan to increase my rate by the same proportion by 2020 so I can retain parity for the education, knowledge and experience that I contribute above that of just turning up.
  
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  October 25, 2017 12:26pm
- Paulus
  
  Unions have said this morning that in addition to the minimum wage increases they expect to be going for 8% wage increases.
  We know that the Teachers are going for 12.5% already.
  Inflation looks to rocket – unemployment will grow quickly accordingly as smaller employers will not take on staff but look after the good ones they have.
  Glory Glory Hallelujah the Unions marching on !
  
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  October 25, 2017 1:57pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Arizona gets two new Republican Senators in 2018.

It’s good to change the oil.
#MAGA
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October 25, 2017 8:41am
- dime
  
  is that idiot mccain stepping down?
  
  retreating to his remote mansion? far away from the refugees he wants to bring into the US.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:53am
cas

If I could earn $1 for every time Jacinda says I rather than we, I could be very rich indeed.
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October 25, 2017 8:43am
- dime
  
  shes trying to project strength.
  
  inferiority complex. worried about not being taken seriously. cant imagine why!
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:53am
  - Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
    
    Comrade Dime,
    How can you say such a thing about our Dearly Glorious Leader? have you not seen the depression on the top of Comrade Gayford’s head, where glorious leader thumb rests?
    
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    October 25, 2017 9:14am
    - VicParking
      
      She’s just pissed off he gets up first and wears her favorite bra.
      https://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2017/10/first-slut-shaming-now-cross-dressing-meet-clarke-gayford/
      
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      October 25, 2017 10:47am
- RF
  
  I look forward to her visit with Trump next month. It’s going to be classic.
  
  I correspond with an old Vet over there who is so pro Trump. He hates commies having fought them and he has already picked up that our PM is one.
  
  He is now watching her progress like a hawk and telling his mates.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:56am
- softail 1450
  
  cas ,you’d be even wealthier if you got a dollar for every time she says “oh”.
  it seems every sentence must start with that word.
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:45am
  - Classic Liberal
    
    And ‘Look,…’ She’s actually an awful speaker, with endless grating repetitions and bad enunciation. I don’t understand why so many people claim she’s a good speaker.
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:28am
    - Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
      
      Comrade Classic,
      You will once you see the next glorious revolution in education which Leader Dearly will personally lead to great glory.
      
      Why do you think Dear Leader spent so much time campaigning at schools? #LetsDoThis!
      
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      October 25, 2017 1:56pm
  - rangitoto
    
    Has she fixed poverdy yet?
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:46am
    - Paulus Gnome
      
      Just gone lunch time so probabby . . . .
      
      8 0
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      October 25, 2017 12:30pm
    - Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
      
      Comrade Ranigitoto,
      I believe dear Leader has made it so, but you may have to wait for your next payslip for confirmation.
      
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      October 25, 2017 1:59pm
  - Paulus Gnome
    
    I will change to we when the term ‘fucked up’ appears in the sentence and you will get $1 million for backing that as the $1.00 word because we are heading for an inflation rate that will put Venezuela’s’ to shame
    
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    October 25, 2017 12:29pm
Richard

From looking at Labours agreements with NZF and the Greens its clear the alt budget Labour presented during the election has not survived. Their going to need a lot more money…..well more of everybody elses money anyway. Brace for impact.
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October 25, 2017 8:51am
Happychappy

You have to laugh no sooner are Labour in power and a strike is called by the workers at Fletchers Contruction because the workers have had enough of no wage increases. This is what we have to look forward to over the coming years until business obeys Jacinda and Winston in giving everyone a equal share. XMAS is coming so people get ready for the Unions to show their power until the Nation bows to wiping out capitalism.
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October 25, 2017 8:56am
- peterwn
  
  And Fletcher Construction might go the way of Mainzeal and its workers left wondering what happened.
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:21am
  - MrTips
    
    And THAT would not be a bad thing. Ironically, here in the People’s Republic of Christchurch, all the Labour voters would like that to happen.
    
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    October 25, 2017 9:24am
- VicParking
  
  Fletchers has 10,000 employees. The Unite union could only get 100 to strike. Fletchers response “I think we can work around it”
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:51am
RF

Has anyone heard what the criminal green frog has been up to.

Not a squeak since the election however she will be biding her time wallowing in a trough of slops close to the Green camp.
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October 25, 2017 9:08am
- Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
  
  Comrade Turei has been demoted in rank and has received a new work assignment commensurate with her abilities.
  
  Back to work pleb, that is all.
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:17am
- Digmen1
  
  I’d love to see a video of her riding a bike down to the local winz office. (to ask for a handout)
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:20am
  - marcw
    
    She’ll have at least 6 months stand down after she gets her redundancy from the taxpayers (3 months Parliamentary salary).
    
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    October 25, 2017 1:39pm
MrTips

So whats Jacinda going to give up today?
She’s not even officially in the job yet but she has already managed to kick to the kerb two “dearly held” issues:

1. 50% Gender rep in Cabinet (she has less woman than National!)
2. The chiiilllldren (complete with cancer curing earnest face). Wasn’t this the reason she got into politics? And now she’s passed that onto the party of old men and Shane Jones (ahem)!

F.O.S. on a scale not seen before in NZ politics. How the hell did Key rate her?
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October 25, 2017 9:22am
Manolo

Another RINO announces his departure:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-24/gop-senator-flake-rips-into-trump-after-dropping-re-election-bid
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October 25, 2017 9:23am
- tom hunter
  
  Wow. I knew he was going to be primaried – but he just up and quit?
  
  His popularity was way down in Arizona so he can blame Trump all he wants. The reason he’s down and out is that he was elected in the Tea Party wave – and then turned into yet another squish when he got to Washington. And since he was only a junior Senator he could not juggle the gravy train to keep the goodies flowing back to his home state – like McCain has.
  
  So the question now is whether Arizona’s increasingly pale red electorate will put a Democrat in?
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:48am
- Nermal
  
  I wish a few NINO’s here would do the same. Bill, Nick, Paula, etc etc etc
  
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  October 25, 2017 2:42pm
Sir Cullen's Sidekick

Bros – Get used to the term “Prime Minister Ardern” for the next nine long years…..No way on earth this will be a one term government and it will not collapse in the first term either….I still blame John Key’s rash decision. He would have secured the deal on Day 1 of the negotiations.
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October 25, 2017 9:25am
- Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
  
  Not so Comrade Cullen,
  After Leader Dear has abolished the British Honors system, and criminalized the use thereof, elections will be ~~permanently~~ suspended pending the investigation of an appropriately experienced and resourced working group.
  
  That is all.
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:31am
- Manolo
  
  All power and praise to SCS who predicted a Labour victory when the chips were down.
  
  The sidekick of the former Minister of Finance and giant of economics deserves to be heard!
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:40am
  - Sir Cullen's Sidekick
    
    Finally somebody who understands me. Thanks Manolo bro! Let me put a good word about you to Tooth Fairy’s partner Gay’s Lord.
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:36am
- RF
  
  Sir Cullen
  
  Sorry but I believe the weak link in your argument is the tooth fairy.
  
  She will become flakey under pressure trying to hold the coalition together and after a falling out with Peters will decide that it is time to start a family. Her clock is ticking.
  
  Labour will struggle to find a suitable replacement.
  
  I give her up to one term.
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:07am
  - Sir Cullen's Sidekick
    
    RF – Do not under estimate Tooth Fairy. She withstood the election campaign (though only for six weeks). Managed Winnie The Poo and won the coalition negotiations and convinced the wimp James Waste of Space Shaw to sit outside the tent by throwing some bones with some meat attached. So far Tooth Fairy has stood well…There will be a winter of discontent when her policies start to bite, but she will say she can’t finish her social agenda in one term and the suckers of this country will give her another chance. For the life of me, I can’t see a one term government unless Winnie the Poo and his cronies mess up big time.
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:41am
    - lifesgood
      
      My goodness, what rot! “Withstood the election campaign” Um, no, she was completely sheltered by Clarke and Co and her namby pamby boyfriend rushing to her defence at the least slight plus ALL the msm was completely on her side.
      “Managed Winnie the pooh” Um, no, she rolled over and said “yes boss, yes boss, anything you say boss”
      She didn’t convince “James Waste of Space Shaw to sit outside the tent” Winnie threatened to withdraw from talks if he didn’t.
      By the way, prostitution is now legal in NZ, just saying.
      
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      October 25, 2017 2:38pm
  - Paulus
    
    No fear – Angry Andys in the waiting room – remember the Union under the Party rules did not elect Cinderella – she does not answer to them.
    She was put up by a jackup by Helen Clark and Grant Robertson.
    The Unions will show their colours in 6 months as per rules.
    Remember Collective Wage Bargaining – again.
    
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    October 25, 2017 2:03pm
- VicParking
  
  Dope aint legal yet!
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:53am
- MH
  
  possibly a fairy tale or pony tail.
  
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  October 25, 2017 4:27pm
Salacious Crumb

Interesting news article on tv this morning about President Xi now bestowed greater power than any previous Chinese leader going back to Mao.

John Key had a very strong relationship with Xi; will either Peters or Ardern have nearly as much credibility with him?
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October 25, 2017 9:28am
- Sir Cullen's Sidekick
  
  Tooth Fairy’s strong teeth will make the bond even stronger
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:37am
- Ross12
  
  SC
  I was speaking to a Chinese friend about this earlier. He explained that as President Xi he has to consult the “cabinet” of 7 at the top of the party before significant decisions are made. Becoming Chairman he has powers to act on his own, but he aims to use those powers to bring more democracy to China. There has been quite a bit of talk about it in China. My friend thinks it is a good positive move. We will see.
  
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  October 25, 2017 5:59pm
  - Salacious Crumb
    
    Interesting times for the PRC indeed Ross12. I have always had the view of Xi as a moderate reformist who has a greater view of China’s role in the international community. Is that how your friend views him?
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:50pm
    - Ross12
      
      Basically, yes SC.
      
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      October 25, 2017 9:33pm
Anne Glen Eden

What can you say? The election has been summed up this morning in the Herald.

An editorial, voice of reality, states, “These concessions are sufficiently vague to suggest little will change.” I’m sure that’s true. Nothing of what Labour promised is going to happen in the way they said it – poverty eliminated for children in particular, everyone having a home, pure clean water, etc. etc. Even the rail to the airport is to be ‘worked towards’.

On the other hand, you have Rachel Stewart:

“What’s it going to be like while writing under the influence of optimism? Will I still be able to perform? Or will I need the equivalent of a verbal Viagra to even feel the desire to raise my pen?……Like many others, I’ve spent nine long years hanging out for the day we’d be released from the shackles of endless denials about the actual state of our country. It feels like we’ve had a break in the weather and can finally come in to land; feel grounded.”

She believes them……literally. She actually believes that they meant what they said – and can produce it. She believes that the majority of the country are vicious misers who want to see masses of ‘poor’ suffering and homeless; that they have never done anything in the hope of alleviating such circumstances.

How can anyone be that naive? That sheltered and bereft of recent history? That wilfully blind to voters who are relentlessly ignored by politicians ‘following their consciences’ rather than doing what voters want?

I can tell her what she’ll do, obsessively blinkered as she is. As this government fails to deliver on its nirvana, she’ll make excuses. What she would call ‘inhumanity’ and ‘mercenary’ by a National government will become ‘noble sacrifice for a just cause’ by a Labour one. What she would call ‘failure’ or ‘inexcusable irresponsibility’ by a National government will become ‘bad advice’ from ‘experts’ by a Labour one – or unfortunate ‘lessons’ as they ‘learn’.

And the all-round excuses used by politicians forever will still apply – ‘it takes time’, ‘we didn’t say we’d do it in THIS term’, ‘we didn’t know THIS would happen’, ‘the working group didn’t recommend THAT’…..

And she’ll believe that as well. Because she’ll never get out of the mode, “Increased inequality, homelessness, child poverty, housing unaffordability, environmental breakdown, ponytail pulling – there’s work to do. Do I sound smug? Like a bad winner? Sorry, but they’ve had their turn. Now it’s ours. Give us this. Just for a day or two.”

Let me just say – Ponytail pulling? When we have rampant sexual harassment by both sexes (as part of an ongoing culture of bullying throughout every level of the country from birth to death) which is simply left to go on.

For what possible reason does she believe Labour doesn’t get elected for long? Because they produce wondrous prosperity for all and we can’t handle it? She doesn’t sound smug. She sounds inane and infantile.
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October 25, 2017 9:29am
- KKKKatee
  
  Rachel Stewart is a very angry woman.
  She writes absolute rubbish.
  She actually stood for Labour once….
  In the Waitotara Ward in 1987
  Those tough old farmers saw through her bullshit – bingo!
  She’s batshit crazy and, interestingly enough, she’s had a rural upbringing….
  Who would’ve thought eh?
  Oh, and she’s Lesbian – nothing wrong with that, but it’s the angry, anti ones that get up my nose…..
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:04am
  - Anne Glen Eden
    
    Well, that explains it. She writes like a high school kid – and clearly thinks like one too. Another ‘young’ person or arrested development in the aged?
    
    Unfortunately, like most of the MSM, she’s clearly incapable of growing up and her mind is entirely closed, fixated on her own fairy tale of utopian dreams and hero female ‘knights on white chargers’.
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:38am
  - sam green
    
    Kkkkkkatee likes the more compliant ones.
    
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    October 25, 2017 8:57pm
- KevOB
  
  Add a pending global financial crisis as the Central Banks try to adjust the massive liquidity they unleashed.
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:44am
Brito

Fact of life time!

The dollar recently was worth $US0.74c to the Kiwi (just before the final results came in).

On the 22 Oct it fell to $US0.70 to the Kiwi

I thought it might go to $US0.66c and that’s what I’m working on but I might be out by 10c.

Today it’s worth $US0.68 to the Kiwi.

Here ends the lesson.
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October 25, 2017 9:51am
- SPC
  
  It’s 89 cents to the Australian. The range is 80 cents low (back in 2013) to $ high – still about par.
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:15am
  - Brito
    
    Tell me that when we get to $US0.60c
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:30am
    - rightoverlabour
      
      Got to below 40c on 02/04/2001. How low can we go?
      
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      October 25, 2017 11:54am
- Odakyu-sen
  
  The Kiwi has weakened against the yen. Once it drops to the low 70s (say, 72 yen to the $NZ) I shall feel a lot better. Currently down to 78.5 so let’s see where it goes over the next month.
  
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  October 25, 2017 5:58pm
Michael

How the hell can a 19 year old Chinese student afford to even put a deposit on a $1.2 million house?
I bet it is not his money. Something funny going on here. Unless , of course, it is a Padriv wind-up.
Note to self. Phone Winston and ask him to put a stop to this sort of thing.
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October 25, 2017 9:56am
- Padriv Ustoev
  
  I’ll spell it out for those of us who are retarded.
  The students family sent him to NZ on a bogus study trip. So he can quickly and easily get an IRD number. This allows them to park their money in New Zealand.
  As soon as he is done and they have parked enough money in Auckland real estate, he is going to duck off back to China, that he misses and loves and live there happily ever after. He has no intention of living or working here, just buying property and possibly getting a dual citizenship through loophole in our business immigration process. But that’s a very long term goal.
  
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  October 25, 2017 12:00pm
  - Brito
    
    That ladies and gentlemen is exactly how the system works!!!
    
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    October 25, 2017 12:14pm
  - btb
    
    Nice troll Padriv. I was about to call the cops.
    
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    October 25, 2017 7:38pm
- noskire
  
  And also the Chinese government pay a US$100 000 kick-start for those looking to “relocate”.
  
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  October 25, 2017 2:42pm
starboard

Arden and the shitty 3 headed alliance will implode within 18 months.
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October 25, 2017 10:07am
- noskire
  
  Yes they will starboard, likely before then.
  Labour hasn’t been able to satisfy many whilst in opposition for the last nine years, let alone trying a threesome.
  Can they keep the leash on Winston? He’s far too canny – but Foreign Affairs will keep him out of the country for a bit.
  The majority of ministerial posts have been given to those with little parliamentary experience – how many closets are going to be opened?
  This will turn into a MSM free-for-all and I am picking this will end in tears within a year.
  
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  October 25, 2017 2:55pm
kowtow

RNZ “news” just reported Sen Flakes’ extraordinary attack on Pres Trump.

RNZ ‘news’ failed to mention Flake is not seeking re election as he’s behind in Arizona.

RNZ expects us to consider them to be a reliable “news” source ,when they tell half truths ?
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October 25, 2017 10:09am
- tom hunter
  
  What did you expect? Why do you waste time listening to them?
  
  Anyway – here’s something to cheer you up….
  
  Anguished Liberals Plan to ‘Scream Helplessly at the Sky’ on Anniversary of Trump Election
  
  The organizers say in a Facebook post: “Come express your anger at the current state of democracy, and scream helplessly at the sky!”
  
  I can only hope that somebody is trolling them. It surely cannot be this sad for the losers.
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:14am
  - SPC
    
    Funny. Given the state of depression – outright end of the world hysteria on KB.
    
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    October 25, 2017 10:22am
  - tom hunter
    
    Chuckle – I’d forgotten about this classic scene from 1984, The Two Minute Hate
    
    Two minutes? We should be so lucky. It’s been twelve freaking months now that the US Left have been in scream mode.
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:32am
SPLOOGE

It’s nearly a week and the sky still hasn’t fallen in.
I suppose there’s still time.
Maybe by Friday it will happen.
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October 25, 2017 10:09am
- Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
  
  Indeed Comrade SPLOOGE, the capitalist pigs will not know what hit them, but you should not drop hints regarding the timing of the glorious revolution. Dearest Leader will not be pleased.
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:21am
- KevOB
  
  No new government has yet been sworn in.
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:46am
  - Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
    
    Comrade Kev, we will legislate retrospectively! Nothing will stop the glorious revolution, it’s too big to fail.
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:04am
- kowtow
  
  You’re wrong , the Looney Left say unless we do something the end is nigh!
  
  :”The climate declaration calls on New Zealand to phase out fossil fuels by 2050, prevent new coal mines and coal-burning plants, and end deep sea oil exploration and fracking.
  It would also halt the expansion of industrialised, intensive farming and ”replace the unsustainable drive for endless economic growth and consumerism”.
  
  https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/dcc/two-councillors-deride-dcc-zero-carbon-move
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:53am
  - Ross12
    
    kowtow
    I was talking to a friend who is in the O&G industry yesterday about potential changes that could be pushed by the Greens.
    He said they don’t have a clue of the size of it’s contribution to the economy ( and therefore how much it can contribute to their “wonderful” social ideas).
    The Tui offshore oil field ( now coming to the end of it’s production life –it was a high producing but short life well) was generating more income for the Government than the dairy industry for several years , not long ago.
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:46am
Manolo

A good article:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/janet-albrechtsen/harvey-weinstein-scandal-notmetoo-if-its-lynch-mob-justice/news-story/55f0d7a4c395f1d9f449dbea1f2784e4
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October 25, 2017 10:22am
starboard

Pull head out of arse splooge..the dollar is dropping quicker than your mamas draws, it’s going to end in tears.
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October 25, 2017 10:23am
- rightoverlabour
  
  Yup, Poll Pot will be thrilled, the rest of the country (besides exporters) that ultimately are beholden to the price of petrol will begin suffering. As transport cost escalate, everything else goes with it.
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:55am
  - rightoverlabour
    
    Anyone prepared to bet how low we could go? 2001 – 2003 was a particularly happy time with it hovering at $0.40. 02/04/2001 was a particularly good day! (0.397110)
    
    http://www.nzforex.co.nz/forex-tools/historical-rate-tools/historical-exchange-rates
    
    https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/currency
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:05am
  - Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
    
    Dispatches from Comrade Pot confirm his approval of the glorious plan.
    
    Back to work pleb, that is all
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:20am
- Happychappy
  
  starboard: I thought when we got rid of ztev after the election that we would have a bit of sanity around here but it looks like he has sent some of his children to spice up KB.
  
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  October 25, 2017 10:56am
- Brito
  
  Is it too early for gin? Some of these idiots are forcing me to consider a pick me up.
  
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  October 25, 2017 11:35am
  - SPLOOGE
    
    No.
    Gin is the perfect morning drink.
    Drink the whole bottle and report back, let’s see if it cheers you up.
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:56am
    - Brito
      
      SPLOOGE was the sound my toilet made this morning when my turd resurfaced after launching.
      
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      October 25, 2017 12:03pm
      - SPLOOGE
        
        Brilliant. You’re on fire today.
        
        4 3
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        October 25, 2017 1:39pm
      - Brito
        
        And now I rest.
        
        3 1
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        October 25, 2017 1:49pm
- Paulus
  
  Got my Stg pension this morning – best return from Stg for a long time.
  I have told them to hold into my UK Bank account as it will be worth more soon.
  
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  October 25, 2017 2:09pm
Fletch

I’ve seen the articles posted on Facebook by the Herald, 1 News, etc describing how NZ First and Labour are allocating monies for this and that and I have to say it seems more like children playing with monopoly money than a fiscally responsible government. Seriously. “OK, I’ll have a billion for this, and you take so many million for that”. It feels like little kids deciding among themselves who is going to play first with the toys today.

Meanwhile, mum and dad (National) will have to sort it all out some time in the future.
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October 25, 2017 10:25am
Fletch

Hilarious! MSNBC does a segment on whether there is a need for Trump’s wall while looking at wall prototypes, and during the segment, illegals jump the existing border fence.

https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/922515047607234560/video/1
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October 25, 2017 10:29am
- SPLOOGE
  
  Which way were they jumping?
  
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  October 25, 2017 1:32pm
- MH
  
  It is all to do with diet, Mexican jumping Beans gives them an extra boost.
  
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  October 25, 2017 4:36pm
Fletch

There are now 400 scientific papers that say global warming is a myth.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/10/24/delingpole-now-400-scientific-papers-in-2017-say-global-warming-is-a-myth/
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October 25, 2017 10:31am
- SPLOOGE
  
  Brietbart? Bahahaaaa. OK. It might have some credibility then.
  
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  October 25, 2017 12:19pm
  - realityczech
    
    Go back to CNN and your other fake news networks kid.
    
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    October 25, 2017 12:23pm
    - SPLOOGE
      
      If I want real news I need look no further than FOX.
      Would you not concur lad?
      *snorts*
      
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      October 25, 2017 1:02pm
    - realityczech
      
      Fox at least restores balance to an otherwise relentless distorted view from the lunatic left.
      
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      October 25, 2017 8:51pm
UrbanNeocolonialist

100million trees per year policy:
-Radiata about $1400/hectare for 7000 trees. Other -trees (like manuka) about $2000/hectare.
So need to plant 14000 hectares (140 square km) a year at about $20-30million per year. Not going to break the bank, though need to find suitable land.
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October 25, 2017 10:53am
- Kiwiladdy
  
  Are you have missed a beat. By legalising weed, we can all have a few productive trees in our back yard.
  
  I suppose it’s not actually a bad idea as we can all become exporters and take advantage of the falling NZD when it nears ground zero.
  
  Turns out this government thing is as easy Jacinda makes it out to be.
  
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  October 25, 2017 11:13am
- ROJ
  
  Um – not so. I’m in the business, and stocking rates are nowadays around 800 per ha, and cost including land prep $1200 per ha (could be bit less if low quality stock).
  
  So we’re talking 125,000 ha, annual cost in range of $140 MILLION. And that doesn’t include any cost of management or ongoing maintenance.
  
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  October 25, 2017 11:19am
- Brito
  
  Yes to all of that, but the Autumn and Winter months are when you plant. So 100 million tree into 6 months, and I don’t know how many trees you can plant in a day, but the number of people required will be very, very high.
  
  Most of this land is in far flung areas of the country where population density is low. Housing options are low etc.
  
  Year 2 means that we will have planted 28o square kilometres and so on. This area will increase in size until year 18 when the first harvest starts (2520 sq km by then).
  
  Numbers don’t lie.
  
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  October 25, 2017 11:48am
  - Rich Prick
    
    That’s somewhere between 600,000 and 700,000 trees planted a day, or about 93,000 planted an hour. I don’t think Labour and the Greens used a calculator on this one.
    
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    October 25, 2017 12:37pm
    - realityczech
      
      Calculators are an indulgence of the capitalist pigs ☭
      
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      October 25, 2017 12:40pm
      - Brito
        
        Then use a fucking abacus ya Luddite.
        
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        October 25, 2017 1:06pm
      - Gruffydd
        
        Cripple fight.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqw1FI1hfJA
        
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        October 25, 2017 1:15pm
      - Paulus
        
        Grant Robertson’s pocket calculator batteries are still flat.
        
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        October 25, 2017 2:13pm
    - Brito
      
      Very good Griff-oid! Like it!!!
      
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      October 25, 2017 1:31pm
    - Paulus
      
      Where are the people who will actually plant – not New Zealanders – too hard work.
      
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      October 25, 2017 2:12pm
VicParking

The tooth fairy and the drunk are going to push through a Waka jumping law to make sure the troops stay in line. I’m supprised it has not got more attention from the MSM. Next it will be you can only be in parliament if you hold a party card.
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October 25, 2017 10:58am
- Anne Glen Eden
  
  You have to laugh.
  
  They all argue for the right of MPs to vote against the voters if their ‘conscience’ so dictates, but it’s intolerable if any of them vote with their feet according to their ‘conscience’ if it’s against their own party. So they’ll make a law dictating that MPs can’t act on their ‘conscience’.
  
  Pity voters don’t have the same power.
  
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  October 25, 2017 11:21am
  - Brigitte
    
    Hmm, if a backbench NZF votes against the tax increase and says that they voted for the earlier tax cut so would be a hypocrite. Then adds it also contradicts their pensioner friendly position (lose $26 per fortnight pension increase from 1 April). So, in that case, what would Winnie do under the waka jumping legislation?
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:42am
- Ross12
  
  The fact they feel the need for it tells you everything you need to know.
  
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  October 25, 2017 11:48am
RF

If they shift the Auckland Port up north that will leave a coastal area close to the CBD free to plant trees.
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October 25, 2017 11:06am
- MH
  
  these trees are a delilberate attempt to hide the fiscal hole. Once global warming takes hold the associated fires will destroy any perceived gains.
  
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  October 25, 2017 4:43pm
Hugh Pavletich

Young home buyers, and how they live with massive mortgages … Ron Stock … Fairfax / Stuff NZ

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/98143924/Young-home-buyers-and-how-they-live-with-massive-mortgages?cid=app-iPad

… Pavletich (Paulson) post on thread … in moderation

It is very simple really.

Normal housing markets do not exceed 3.0 times annual household incomes … requiring mortgage loads of about 2.5 times … refer Demographia Survey http://www.demographia.com .

Auckland is currently way out of control at 10.0 times … forcing families that cant afford it to be ‘mortgage slaves’ … as this article illustrates.
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October 25, 2017 11:15am
Fisiani

When Winston dies from his terminal emphysema during this term I wonder who the next leader of NZF will be.
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October 25, 2017 11:17am
- Manolo
  
  The sweet and tender Ron Mark.
  
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  October 25, 2017 11:41am
- Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
  
  It will be a great and glorious day! Comrade Winston will be immortalized just like Lenin, so that future generations of faithful, loyal comrades can pay homage and draw inspiration for the man who made the revolution possible! It will be a day of splendor in this nation that will never be surpassed.
  
  Dearest Leader already has a working group assigned to the mausoleum design and construction project.
  
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  October 25, 2017 11:43am
  - RalphT
    
    Surely a mausoleum wouldn’t be enough; what about a statue in every town?
    
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    October 25, 2017 11:55am
    - Rich Prick
      
      And a portrait in every living room.
      
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      October 25, 2017 12:41pm
      - Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
        
        Comrade Richard,
        You should have been issued with a portrait of dear leader already?
        Once we natioanlise the postal delivery apparatus you can be sure your Dear Leader portrait updates will arrive in a timely, efficient manner.
        
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        October 25, 2017 1:29pm
    - Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
      
      Comrade Ralph,
      Thank you for your marvelous suggestion. I have told Comrade Gayford who will tell Leader Dearest. I suspect that if your plan is given the go ahead, a working group will begin planning once the building program for Glorious Leaders statues is complete. it’s going to be huge, the most beautiful statues you have ever seen, bigger and better than anyone else, almost like a wall….
      
      Now… get back to work, pleb.
      
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      October 25, 2017 1:26pm
      - MH
        
        can we get one with NO on the reverse side ?
        
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        October 25, 2017 4:48pm
    - UrbanNeocolonialist
      
      How about commemorative public toilets, with a little bit of Peters interred under each one we could balance the scales by taking a shit on him for a change..
      
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      October 25, 2017 2:35pm
Surely Knott

“You should be concerned about Winston Peters Waka Jumping Bill.” Great article. Yes, In fact I am worried about this piece of anti democratic legislation. Which would potentially stop our mps voting as they see fit. Interesting that WPeters wants this legislation when it appears his caucus was split over wether they go with Labour or Nats. https://www.libertas.digital/blog/2017/10/25/you-should-be-concerned-about-winston-peters-waka-jumping-bill
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October 25, 2017 11:26am
- rangitoto
  
  For sure there is discontent among the troops and Peter’s wants to shut it down.
  
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  October 25, 2017 11:54am
  - Fisiani
    
    IF just 2 NZF Mp’s abandon the party before the bill passes and vote with National then the government changes.
    
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    October 25, 2017 12:42pm
Sideoiler

https://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2017/10/sense-disturbance-blogosphere/#more-340863
You got to know you’re screwed when lprent is praising your work.
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October 25, 2017 11:44am
rightoverlabour

I still maintain that Winston “Poll Pot” Peters is a serious threat to our democracy. Labour and the Greens have some loony policies, but essentially I think they mean well. I believe that they actually care about people. I don’t believe the same is the case with Winston. (Please note that I have tried very hard to stick to commenting rules….)
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October 25, 2017 11:46am
Wayne1749

Jacinda will be a strong decisive leader. All the evidence points to it.

After all she talks like this:

“….Absolutely………..Absolutely…………Absolutely………..Absolutely……….it is our strong view……….Absolutely……….Absolutely…………Absolutely……….it is our strong view……….Absolutely……it is our strong view…..”
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October 25, 2017 11:51am
- RalphT
  
  So, we needn’t worry about Winnie taking over if Jacinda takes leave; all Labour has to do is buy a parrot.
  
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  October 25, 2017 11:57am
  - Paulus
    
    A Green Parrot surely !
    
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    October 25, 2017 2:16pm
    - noskire
      
      Mr. Praline: Now that’s what I call a dead parrot.
      
      Owner: No, no…..No, ‘e’s stunned!
      
      Mr. Praline: STUNNED?!?
      
      Owner: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was wakin’ up! Norwegian Blues stun easily, major.
      
      Mr. Praline: Um…now look…now look, mate, I’ve definitely ‘ad enough of this. That parrot is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not ‘alf an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein’ tired and shagged out following a prolonged squawk.
      
      Owner: Well, he’s…he’s, ah…probably pining for the fjords.
      
      Mr. Praline: PININ’ for the FJORDS?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he fall flat on his back the moment I got ‘im home?
      
      Owner: The Norwegian Blue prefers keepin’ on it’s back! Remarkable bird, id’nit, squire? Lovely plumage!
      
      Mr. Praline: Look, I took the liberty of examining that parrot when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had been sitting on its perch in the first place was that it had been NAILED there.
      
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      October 25, 2017 5:19pm
- Kimbo
  
  “…I refuse to accept…” 😉
  
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  October 25, 2017 12:23pm
  - MH
    
    nor will I seek…..
    
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    October 25, 2017 4:50pm
- realityczech
  
  Relax Pain1749, she has Winston there to tell little shits like you where to go.
  
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  October 25, 2017 12:29pm
  - Wayne1749
    
    The fact is Jacinda got in not by dint of any particular talent aside from the fact that some on the left find her horsey in-bred look to be hawt – so much for a principled approach to liberal social democratic values.
    
    As John Minto says (the only time I have ever agreed with anything he said or wrote): “Jacinda has perfected the political art of sounding good while saying nothing of substance.”
    
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    October 25, 2017 12:48pm
- Steve (North Shore)
  
  “Labour’s Policy has not changed”
  
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  October 25, 2017 7:15pm
  - Steve (North Shore)
    
    Oh, sorry, “in the last day”
    
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    October 25, 2017 7:16pm
Morrissey

Tony Parsons—a candidate for Britain’s stupidest columnist—is upset by the Labour Party’s decision to stand up for human rights for a change.

http://normanfinkelstein.com/2017/10/13/uk-labour-party-conference-or-nuremberg-rally-assessing-the-evidence/
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October 25, 2017 11:58am
- treadingthemill
  
  @Morrissey
  
  Why is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict any business of the British? How is it relevant to British people, or to British workers whom Labour is supposed to represent? And is it really so easy to claim that you are supporting human rights by siding with only party in the conflict? Human rights violations have been carried out by both sides. I believe the Western world should stay out of it. Meddling in other people’s countries or taking sides in foreign conflicts rarely leads to good outcomes. More often than not it just creates more problems.
  
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  October 25, 2017 12:36pm
  - SPC
    
    The western world should stay out of it, but others getting involved is fine?
    
    1. The Western world largely created the state of Israel (given who was voting in the UN back in 1947).
    
    2. The world is always involved in matters of national borders (collective security being a foundational principle of the UN), and there is always international interest in the matter of occupation of extra-territorial land – part of the rules based international order thing.
    
    3. The land awarded for a Palestinian state remains unfinished business for the UN. And a peace process for concluding it is a long held international goal.
    
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    October 25, 2017 1:26pm
  - Morrissey
    
    Thanks for those very good questions, treadingthemill. I’ll answer them one by one…
    
    1.) Why is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict any business of the British?
    
    Israel was created as a result of the most cynical and dishonest British imperial politics. I suggest you do some reading about the Balfour Declaration, one of the most destructive documents in history.
    
    2.) How is it relevant to British people, or to British workers whom Labour is supposed to represent?
    
    The labour movement, whether in Britain, the United States, New Zealand, or indeed anywhere in the world, has always been at the forefront of social activism. You may recall that New Zealand unions refused to unload Chilean imports while the U.S.-installed fascist regime was in power there in the 1970s and 80s.
    
    3.) And is it really so easy to claim that you are supporting human rights by siding with only party in the conflict?
    
    You must choose to side with the criminals or the victims. Israel is the most notorious serial violator of law in the world, and has flouted international law since 1967. The British Labour Party has finally shown some gumption, and is now in line with international law and international opinion.
    
    4.) Human rights violations have been carried out by both sides.
    
    Similarly, human rights violations were “carried out by both sides” in Occupied France from 1940 to 1944. I’m sure you’re not in two minds about which of those sides was more wrong.
    
    5.) I believe the Western world should stay out of it. Meddling in other people’s countries or taking sides in foreign conflicts rarely leads to good outcomes. More often than not it just creates more problems.
    
    I agree with you. The United States should immediately stop arming the Israeli regime, something which is, by the way, forbidden by United States law….
    
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2011/04/22/us-weapons-sales-to-israel/
    
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    October 25, 2017 4:47pm
    - treadingthemill
      
      @Morrissey
      
      I don’t find any of your explanations convincing arguments. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not an easy black and white situation that can be boiled down to good guys vs bad guys. The comparison to France under the Nazis is obnoxious. Meddling is meddling, no matter who is doing it. Let them sort it out themselves. Unless you’re Israeli or Palestinian, or the near neighbors perhaps, it’s nobody else’s business. Imperialism comes in many forms. It seems to me that you are just advocating your own version.
      
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      October 25, 2017 4:59pm
Kimbo

Game 1 of the World Series today, Astros vs Dodgers. I assume you are still picking LA, tom hunter?

https://www.mlb.com/gameday/astros-vs-dodgers/2017/10/24/526511?partnerId=LR_preview#game_tab=preview,game_state=preview,game=526511
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October 25, 2017 12:19pm
- tom hunter
  
  You must have missed my comment on it the other day, so….
  
  Since I can’t have the Cubs again and I can’t have my second sentimental pick this year – the Indians – I’m backing the Astros, simply because they have never won the whole thing in their 55 year history. Compared to that I’m not interested in all the Dodger fans whining about their 29 year gap of misery.
  
  Whaaaaaaaa
  
  And I think the Astros will win it. The one weakness they have is their bullpen. Not as bad as others (like the Cubs), but also not great.
  
  Meantime about the only weakness I see in the Dodgers is that their starting pitchers aren’t that great: no, not even future Hall of Famer Kershaw. In fact his post-season stats suck – with an ERA that’s 2 runs higher than regular season. Ugly. Maybe this WS can be his redemption. I even think the Cubs starters shaded them slightly in the NLCS, but that could be just an impression since I’ve not looked at the stats, which can be skewed anyhow depending on whether the other side’s bats are good or bad – and the Cubs weren’t good. In fact they were as cold as ice in the face of only so-so pitching.
  
  Anyhoo… What that means to me for the Astros is a somewhat similar situation to that faced by the Cubs against the Indians last year. If you don’t score runs earlier their bullpen will simply strangle you to death from inning 6 on (if they need to pull their starters that soon).
  
  However, if you put runs on the board early then the Dodgers bullpen gets taken out of the equation and they have to catch up with their bats. And since the Dodgers starting pitchers are just “okay” and the Astros bats are running hot, that should be how it goes. Unless they fall asleep for a couple of games, which is always possible.
  
  Then it just comes down to Astros bullpen vs Dodger batters and that could be a bit of a crapshoot, given the Astro’s weaknesses and how well Taylor and Turner have been going.
  
  The final X factor is that strange period in August/September where the Dodgers collapsed for not one, but two strings of 10 game losses. Weird. Could it happen again?
  
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  October 25, 2017 12:27pm
  - SPC
    
    Can the Astros win a game away from home (and thanks for ruining the Yankees chances, when up 3-2, by saying they were supported by Trump)?
    
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    October 25, 2017 1:05pm
    - tom hunter
      
      🙂
      
      You didn’t know? I would have thought that was the first fact to establish before settling in for some good, solid trolling!!!
      
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      October 25, 2017 1:08pm
- tom hunter
  
  And your pick, kimbo?
  
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  October 25, 2017 12:58pm
  - Kimbo
    
    Hoping for the Astros.
    
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    October 25, 2017 1:07pm
    - tom hunter
      
      That’s it? No further thoughts on their strengths and weaknesses?
      
      I thought you were writing some great analytical piece of work that I was going to joyously receive in the mail. This suggests I’ll be leafing through large, colour slides with Tony The Tiger saying They’rrrre Grrrrreeat
      
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      October 25, 2017 1:11pm
      - Kimbo
        
        …all I have to offer for the moment. 😉
        
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        October 25, 2017 1:20pm
      - Kimbo
        
        …you aren’t implying I am adopting stephieboy methods, are you? 😉
        
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        October 25, 2017 2:05pm
      - tom hunter
        
        Not at all.
        
        More mikenmild perhaps?
        
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        October 25, 2017 2:11pm
    - SPC
      
      They could not win on the east coast against the Yankees and were reliant on their 4 home games to win. They now face 4 games on the west coast, no dodging the statistics.
      
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      October 25, 2017 1:15pm
      - tom hunter
        
        True – but I don’t trust home/away stats when it comes to the post-season – last year’s WS being the classic example.
        
        And that had to hurt – Astro’s pitcher’s first pitch in a World Series gets crushed for a home run. Ouch.
        
        And they’re playing in 103F temperatures – 39C. Man that’s warm for LA at this time of year.
        
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        October 25, 2017 1:20pm
- Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
  
  Comrade Kimbo,
  Glorious Leader is torn on this issue. The policy is yet to be finalised, but I understand your options are twofold:
  1/ Support only our great and glorious comrades, the Boston RED Sox.
  
  2/ to maintain harmony with our views on equality, you will not be allowed to keep score.
  
  I don’t make the rules, I just report ’em, comrade…
  
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  October 25, 2017 1:36pm
publicwatchdog

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
The following request was emailed to the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ) today:

25 October 2017

Can the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ) please carry out an urgent investigation of former NZ Prime Minister John Key and the Panama Papers?

BACKGROUND:

It was murdered Maltese investigative journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia who exposed, via the Panama Papers how NZ foreign trusts were used as money-laundering vehicles by Maltese Politically Exposed Persons.
______________

Malta scandal exposes New Zealand trusts again

Neil Chenoweth and Susan Edmunds

April 28 2017

http://i.stuff.co.nz/business/world/91999096/malta-scandal-exposes-new-zealand-trusts-again

“A Malta magistrate is investigating explosive claims of money laundering and corruption that have put New Zealand in the middle of a global cash trail from the family of Azerbaijan president Ilham Aliyev.

President Aliyev’s daughter, Leyla Aliyeva, is alleged to have channelled more than NZ$1.6 million to senior figures of the Malta government, including Prime Minister Joseph Muscat’s wife.

These include alleged payments to Panama companies owned by New Zealand trusts set up by the Malta Energy Minister Karl Mizzi and Muscat’s chief of staff, Keith Schembri.

On April 20, Maltese blogger Daphne Caruana-Galizia reported that she held copies of documents originally stored in a kitchen at Pilatus Bank, which showed that Egrant Inc, a mystery Panama Papers company identified by the Financial Review last year, was secretly owned by the Maltese Prime Minister’s wife, Michelle Muscat.

In March 2016, a Dubai company controlled by Leyla Aliyeva had transferred US$1.017 million (NZ$1.47 million) marked as a loan into Egrant’s account at Pilatus Bank, Caruana-Galizia reported.

Joseph Muscat denied the claims, calling it the “biggest political lie in Malta’s history”.

Caruana-Galizia reported that other payments were made from Leyla Aliyeva’s company to Pilatus accounts held by Egrant as well as Tillgate Inc and Hearnville Inc, two Panama companies that are owned by Schembri and Mizzi, through New Zealand trusts.

Schembri and Mizzi vehemently deny Caruana-Galizia’s reports. Mizzi has produced audited accounts for his New Zealand trust which shows it as dormant with no assets or income.
…..

The latest revelations, if substantiated, are an embarrassment for the New Zealand government, which announced an inquiry into its offshore trust laws on April 11 last year, the day after the Financial Review revealed details of how Panama law firm Mossack Fonseca’s Malta agent, BT Nexia, began setting up Tillson, Hearnville and Egrant five days after Muscat’s election victory in 2013.

Mossack Fonseca’s files were obtained by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists and German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung.

New Zealand subsequently amended its offshore trusts regime, requiring foreign trusts to file annual accounts with the New Zealand tax office, but with no further restrictions.

At that time, it appeared the Malta trusts had never been used, after Mizzi and Schembri’s Panama companies were turned down by eight banks who refused to open accounts for them because they were Politically Exposed Persons (PEPs).

The Panama Papers, however, show repeated cases of overseas investors filing false or implausible sets of accounts with New Zealand lawyers, who have limited means to verify the figures.

SIGNIFICANT ROLE

The latest wave of allegations in Malta underline how easily the New Zealand disclosure laws can be avoided, which the new laws do not change.

If the reports are substantiated, they raise a far more serious picture of money-laundering from one of the most corrupt countries in the world, in which New Zealand’s foreign trusts played a significant role.

The saga began in February 2016 when Caruana-Galizia revealed that Schembri and Mizzi had set up two Panama companies, Tillgate Inc and Hearnville Inc, owned by the Haast Trust and Rotorua Trust in New Zealand.

In April 2016, the Financial Review published new details of Schembri and Mizzi’s New Zealand trusts and their attempts to open a bank account in Dubai.
….”
____________________

Two days after Daphne Caruana Galizia was murdered by this car bomb, it was announced that former NZ Prime Minister John Key would become Chair of the Board of the ANZ bank.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11934188

“Sir John Key has been named chairman of ANZ Bank’s local arm.
Key joins the board of the country’s biggest bank from today and will assume chair at the start of next year.”

The ANZ bank was the Australian bank mentioned more times than any other bank in the Panama Papers.

ANZ leading Australian bank in the Panama Papers:

http://www.fijileaks.com/home/the-panama-papers-anz-bank-was-the-leading-australian-bank-in-the-world-of-offshore-accounts-samoan-diplomat-was-used-to-help-create-shell-companies-samoas-high-commission-in-australia-couriered-papers

(4/4/2016)

“By Neil Chenoweth
Financial Review

The Mossack Fonseca files show the critical importance that banks hold in the offshore world – and ANZ is the most visible of the Australian banks in the offshore space.

ANZ appears in 7548 of the Mossack documents, reflecting the bank’s extensive work in New Zealand, the Cook Islands, Samoa and Jersey.
…”

On 1 August 2017, at a meeting attended by 200 people at Rutherford House, Victoria University, Wellington New Zealand, the (former) Chair of Transparency International, Jose Ugaz stated that John Key should be investigated over the Panama Papers.

I attended this meeting and heard Jose Ugaz say this myself, as did the other 200 people in the room.

There appears to have been NO NZ mainstream media coverage of this story.

Can the ICIJ please carry out an investigation of former NZ Prime Minister John Key and the Panama Papers?

Yours sincerely,

Penny Bright

‘Anti-corruption whistle-blower’.

Attendee: 2009 Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference.

Attendee: 2010 Transparency International Anti-Corruption Conference.

Attendee: 2013 Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference.

Attendee: 2014 G20 Anti-Corruption Conference.

Attendee: 2015 Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference.

Attendee: 2017 Transparency International Australia Anti-Corruption Conference.

Attendee: 2017 World Justice Project International Rule of Law Forum – The Hague.
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October 25, 2017 12:32pm
- treadingthemill
  
  That post is far too long.
  
  14 1
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  October 25, 2017 12:38pm
  - Kimbo
    
    He he he.
    
    With a comment like that, one didn’t need to see “125 posts” next to your name to discern you are new around here. By Penny Bright’s usual standards that was a bullet point! 😉
    
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    October 25, 2017 12:41pm
    - realityczech
      
      Bimbo, Her rants are more entertaining than your pompous long winded drivel. Try and adopt a more economical style in your trolling.
      
      3 20
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      October 25, 2017 12:43pm
      - Kimbo
        
        Um, well I did get banned for a week for calling her a c*%t. 😉
        
        17 1
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        October 25, 2017 1:05pm
    - treadingthemill
      
      @Kimbo
      
      She does that a lot? It’s very rude.
      
      14 0
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      October 25, 2017 12:48pm
      - tom hunter
        
        Well whatever else you do, please – for the love of god – don’t engage with her. The insane old bat thrives on attention, even the worst kind of attention.
        
        13 0
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        October 25, 2017 1:01pm
      - treadingthemill
        
        No worries there Tom. I got part way through the post and then thought to myself that it looked like a rabbit hole I don’t want to go down. I will refrain from giving her any oxygen.
        
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        October 25, 2017 1:14pm
      - rightoverlabour
        
        A good “Fuck Off” and then scroll on. I never read her shit, just downtick, FO, and carry on as if she does not exist.
        
        12 0
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        October 25, 2017 1:46pm
      - MH
        
        it made George Cross holder of the Maltese falcon.
        
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        October 25, 2017 4:56pm
    - Rich Prick
      
      treadingthemill reminded me of some graffiti seen in a Canadian public convenience: “Your Mom is really nice.”
      
      7 0
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      October 25, 2017 12:48pm
    - Poppa
      
      She never fails to piss everyone off that is for sure. From my observation she has a perfect record
      
      8 0
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      October 25, 2017 2:24pm
  - tom hunter
    
    treadingthemill
    
    That post is far too long.
    
    Chuckle.
    
    (/shakes head sadly and smiles/) – “Rookies.”
    
    10 0
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    October 25, 2017 12:50pm
  - Captain Mainwaring
    
    “That post is far too long.”
    
    Also it’s far too stupid, but what would you expect?
    
    13 0
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    October 25, 2017 12:51pm
    - stigie
      
      Im glad i didn’t read it then Captain but i was an …….
      Attendee 1960 Ferguson 28 Eketahuna pulling championship !~
      
      7 0
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      October 25, 2017 3:42pm
  - Surely Knott
    
    TLDR (Too long didn’t read)
    
    8 0
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    October 25, 2017 1:17pm
  - lifesgood
    
    Don’t worry, nobody reads anything from Public Watchdog. Everyone knows she’s batshit crazy so it’s just straight to the downtick.
    
    10 0
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    October 25, 2017 2:47pm
- Rich Prick
  
  My word Penny, you attend a lot of things. How about trying the rates counter at Auckland Council?
  
  22 0
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  October 25, 2017 12:44pm
  - tom hunter
    
    And they have showers!
    
    12 0
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    October 25, 2017 12:56pm
  - RalphT
    
    “How about trying the rates counter at Auckland Council?” No, the AC is clearly a corrupt organisation and as a matter of principle Penny will not set foot in the building. If not for that small detail she would be happily paying her rates…
    
    7 0
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    October 25, 2017 1:21pm
- softail 1450
  
  I’d like to know who’s paying for all the airfares penny ?
  
  7 0
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  October 25, 2017 1:31pm
- Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
  
  Comrade Bright,
  Dearly Glorious Leader asks you to report for guard duty at Dear Leaders ~~gulag~~ pleasure.
  
  Your work here is done, comrade… don’t over egg the cake.
  
  12 0
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  October 25, 2017 1:39pm
- rightoverlabour
  
  be ye gone, trollop.
  
  10 0
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  October 25, 2017 1:44pm
- noskire
  
  You forgot to query: Where was John Key when JFK was assassinated?
  
  6 0
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  October 25, 2017 5:32pm
- Steve (North Shore)
  
  See?
  I Spray And Walk Away
  Rubbish Stays
  I walk away
  
  Steve N/S
  
  Attendee: Glenfield Trolley Derby 1986
  Fuck I got trolleyed
  
  5 0
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  October 25, 2017 7:23pm
realityczech

“Why is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict any business of the British? ”

Because the Brits invented Israel and started it.
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October 25, 2017 12:36pm
- Brito
  
  Nope, wrong again. The UN voted it into existence. Before that it existed (until the Muslim masses invaded) as the Kingdom of David. When the Uzi was invented peace reigned over the Holy Lands.
  
  12 1
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  October 25, 2017 12:51pm
  - treadingthemill
    
    peace reigned over the Holy Lands.
    
    All land is sacred.
    
    1 1
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    October 25, 2017 1:00pm
    - Kimbo
      
      Since Christ ascended to heaven, sat down at the right hand of the Father, and began his reign as King of kings over all the earth,…yep.
      
      Gotta steer the Amillennial middle course between secular/neo-pagan modernism and Premillennial Dispensationalism. 😉
      
      3 1
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      October 25, 2017 1:04pm
      - treadingthemill
        
        Gotta steer the Amillennial middle course between secular/neo-pagan modernism and Premillennial Dispensationalism.
        
        Apologies Kimbo, but I have no idea what any of that means. But I’m curious about your use of the word pagan, being one myself.
        
        4 2
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        October 25, 2017 1:20pm
      - Brito
        
        Feminist Studies 101 eh girl!!
        
        1 2
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        October 25, 2017 1:29pm
      - treadingthemill
        
        @Brito
        
        Feminist studies? Sorry, I’m not catching your drift. Could you elaborate?
        
        1 2
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        October 25, 2017 1:32pm
      - softail 1450
        
        WTF ?
        
        2 0
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        October 25, 2017 1:33pm
      - SPC
        
        Given we now know how large the universe is, and the likelihood of habitable planets around the place.
        
        One planet would seem about the level of an under-secretary position on the grander scale of things.
        
        Amillenial is reigning from on high rather than amongst the plebs down below, the other belief common amongst Americans is that there is some throne established on earth itself for 1000 years.
        
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        October 25, 2017 1:36pm
      - treadingthemill
        
        One planet would seem about the level of an under-secretary position on the grander scale of things
        
        The universe is vast, and we are a very, very small part of it. I think humans tend to overestimate their importance in the grand scheme of things.
        
        3 1
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        October 25, 2017 1:42pm
      - Brito
        
        Second coming discourse clap trap reconstructed by entitled earth mothers (secular/neo-pagans) stating that God’s dispensation for the coming period is feminist administration…blah blah bloody blah
        
        2 2
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        October 25, 2017 1:43pm
      - treadingthemill
        
        @ Brito
        
        Ah, ok. What does any of that have to do with me, or what Kimbo said?
        
        3 2
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        October 25, 2017 1:46pm
      - treadingthemill
        
        @Brito
        
        Ok, having read both your posts several times now I think I have a handle on what you’re saying.
        
        My Paganism is not connected to, nor does it arise from, feminist studies. It is not anti-feminist either, but it’s not the secular/neo-pagan variety, or the feminist Wiccan variety. And it’s not political in any way, shape or form. I was brought up with it, it’s a famtrad thing in my family that goes back a very long time.
        
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        October 25, 2017 2:01pm
      - Kimbo
        
        @ tradingthemill
        
        Apologies Kimbo, but I have no idea what any of that means. But I’m curious about your use of the word pagan, being one myself.
        
        Unlike pagans, be they ancient or modern, Judaeo-Christian-Muslim monotheists do not see land, or any material object as intrinsically “sacred/holy” in the first instance, and never divine nor an appropriate focus of worship. That is reserved for the transcendent God of the Universe revealed in the Scriptures.
        
        However, if something, be it land, clothing, furniture (e.g., the tabernacle of Moses), or a building (Solomon’s and then Herod’s temple) is set apart/designated by the one supreme God as holy for his particular purposes, then it is that decree that makes them “holy”. Hence the land of Israel was holy for the offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
        
        However, contrary to those who still think that the promise of Israel as “holy land” is still operative in its original form (such as Dispensationalists who view the Scriptures as a form of fortune telling book),
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism
        
        …Amillennialists understand that now all land is “holy” in the sense that it has been given to Christ to rule over. And on his return that will be revealed in its fulness. In the meantime, the land of Israel is holy in the same sense that NZ is also holy – Christ reigns over both, as they have been given to him.
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism
        
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        October 25, 2017 2:01pm
      - Brito
        
        Look, it was about whether I have egg or tuna for lunch. I got carried away and had both.
        
        2 1
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        October 25, 2017 2:03pm
      - treadingthemill
        
        @Kimbo
        
        Thanks for the explanation. I think I understand what you meant now, although I admit the various ins and outs of different Christian teachings tend to go over my head.
        
        Unlike pagans, be they ancient or modern, Judaeo-Christian-Muslim monotheists do not see land, or any material object as intrinsically “sacred/holy” in the first instance, and never divine nor an appropriate focus of worship.
        
        That is a very succinct summation of the difference between Paganism and Monotheism.
        
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        October 25, 2017 2:09pm
      - Kimbo
        
        @ treadingthemill
        
        No problem. Another difference is that pagans view time as cyclical whereas as for Judaeo Christian Muslims it is eschatological, in a line heading toward a divinely initiated climax. However not all Christians (nor even all religious Jews) view the modern state of Israel as a crucial development or prophesied staging post in the move toward end of the age. Instead, Christian amillennialists view it as a nation like any other, entitled to existence and a right to defend herself, but also one that should be held to account when necessary by the international community.
        
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        October 25, 2017 2:23pm
      - treadingthemill
        
        @Kimbo
        
        You have probably noticed that I am Swiss when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, in other words, I don’t take sides. But I agree that Israel has a right to exist and defend itself. I’m generally not too bothered with Christian conservatives despite having very different opinions to them on many things, and they are irrelevant in New Zealand, unlike the USA, but the American Christian-Zionist types are a worry. I think they are throwing gasoline on a fire.
        
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        October 25, 2017 2:37pm
      - Brito
        
        These are the nasties you really want to keep at arms length.
        
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4D_OLm-RV4&t=360s
        
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        October 25, 2017 5:45pm
    - Paulus
      
      Our land in New Zealand is to be shoveled up, bagged and shipped to China – so don’t worry.
      
      2 1
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      October 25, 2017 2:20pm
  - mikenmild
    
    I think you might find that in between the Kingdom of David and the Muslim invasion the ‘Holy Land’ was also ruled by Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Macedonians, Egyptians, Seleucids, Romans, Parthians, Byzantines, and Sassinids, some of them more than once.
    
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    October 25, 2017 1:18pm
    - Brito
      
      Yeah, but Mr Uzi won it back. The end.
      
      7 2
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      October 25, 2017 1:46pm
    - Ed Snack
      
      Mikenmild, you should perhaps note that the Sassanian conquest of Jerusalem was largely achieved by a force of Jews who allied with the Persians to take the city from the Byzantine Christians. In fact following the Roman conquest and the last Jewish rebellion under Bar Kosiba the Jews did not strictly rule (despite his claim, the Herodian line is not Jewish as such though he did marry Jewesses, the Maccabean daughters), and all of the sons by those wives were executed before ruling themselves. Jerusalem itself was briefly held by various factions of Jews in the late 60’s CE but not most of the country. The last undisputed Jewish rule before 1947-8 was probably under the Maccabees, who defeated the Selucids, who were a Macedonian successor state.
      
      Palestine however was the homeland of the Jews regardless of who ruled it though a great many dispersed around the known world under Roman persecution. There was for example a long established though now very nearly vanished “colony” in India.
      
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      October 25, 2017 4:00pm
      - Kimbo
        
        …the Herodian line is not Jewish as such though he did marry Jewesses, the Maccabean daughters), and all of the sons by those wives were executed before ruling themselves.
        
        Herod the Great was an Idumean (Edomite), who tried to placate Jewish displeasure at being ruled by a Gentile by adopting many Jewish practices. Hence the quip by Augustus Caesar that it was safer to be one of Herod’s hogs than one of his sons. 😉
        
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        October 25, 2017 4:05pm
  - Brito
    
    Nothing really I guess. Just seeing where we went while I ate some tuna and egg.
    
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    October 25, 2017 1:52pm
  - MH
    
    I think I see Wingate and hear Lawrence of Arabia music….one good dune deserves another.
    
    3 0
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    October 25, 2017 5:00pm
- Steve (North Shore)
  
  United Nations – shit for brains.
  Brits invented EU I guess?
  My head hurts
  
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  October 25, 2017 7:26pm
Fletch

R.I.P Robert Guillaume who played Benson on TV.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/celebrities/98206688/robert-guillaume-lion-king-benson-and-soap-star-dies-at-89
6 2
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October 25, 2017 1:46pm
- SPLOOGE
  
  Bloody Jacinda.
  Who next? Dylan?
  
  3 5
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  October 25, 2017 1:52pm
  - Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
    
    Comrade SPLOOGE,
    You are not to reveal details of operation “no more Travelling Wilburys”
    
    You are falling from Dear Leaders favour.
    
    12 1
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    October 25, 2017 2:08pm
    - sam green
      
      That is very funny.
      
      3 0
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      October 25, 2017 9:08pm
SPLOOGE

Or a clever dick.
2 1
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October 25, 2017 1:50pm
Jack5

The guests take over the hotel …

Cambridge University English literature lecturers will be forced to make room on their courses for works of black and ethnic minority writers.

The ethnic minorities have thus exerted power over English literature courses at one of Britain’s two great traditional universities.

Dr Priyamvada Gopal, a teaching fellow at Churchill College, on the move:

“This isn’t just about ‘including’ a few black or Asian voices for the sake of inclusion.

“Matters of race and identity are just as central as gender should be to thinking about ideas in the social sciences and humanities in particular.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/10/24/cambridge-university-caves-student-demands-decolonise-english/
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October 25, 2017 2:41pm
- Brito
  
  Define black or ethnic minority.
  
  Seems to me that there was a report or discussion recently which challenged the concept of Europeans being superior (numerically that is for all those who are immediately offended).
  
  Well, the figures came back that showed that ‘white’ folk have a tally of less than 1 billion (I think it was under 800 million).
  
  If that is the case then Europeans are an ethnic minority which means that minorities are already being serviced by this wonderful institution.
  
  They’ll be asking to ban Christmas soon.
  
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  October 25, 2017 2:56pm
lifesgood

I heard this nut job called Susan St John extolling the glorious leader and how she will eliminate child poverdy and what a disgrace it is, blah, blah, blah. Never once did she say it might be a good idea for people to limit their families, to learn to budget, to get off booze and drugs that make them unemployable. I’m feeling ropeable.
13 1
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October 25, 2017 2:51pm
- Brito
  
  Easy boy…you’re talking about our future tree planters in a way which will make them feel excluded.
  
  I won’t have it!!
  
  7 0
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  October 25, 2017 2:57pm
- Politburo of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Aotearoa
  
  It is the role of Glorious Dear Leader to become the Mother and the Father of all the comrades. This is how we meet our equality goals.
  
  Stay where you are, I will send an Education Commissar to you presently.
  
  11 1
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  October 25, 2017 3:13pm
- MH
  
  i think she is related to our martyr St John (pronounced Sin Jin )the Breakfast Ccampbell. Is he he still buttering bread for the obese kids down South but north of the Bomb bays ?
  
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  October 25, 2017 5:04pm
Fletch

Tucker Carlson reports on a new source in the ongoing Hillary Clinton/ Clinton Foundation/Russia/Uranium deal. Now it also involves the Podesta/Russia connection.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNSF2Mqpq-c

Hillary and Bill are in deep do-do. This is the real Russia scandal.
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October 25, 2017 3:13pm
rangitoto

Actual dirty politics:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5014459/Hillary-Clinton-s-campaign-paid-dirty-dossier-Trump.html#comments
10 3
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October 25, 2017 3:30pm
- Fletch
  
  The woman and her husband ought to be in the slammer for treason.
  
  10 4
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  October 25, 2017 3:51pm
- cha
  
  Ignoring this paragraph?.
  
  Of course you are.
  
  The research was previously funded by an unknown anti-Trump Republican donor during the primary, but Clinton’s campaign then paid for it to be finished.
  
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  October 25, 2017 3:53pm
freemark

Just read about Kiwibuild. Some things don’t add up – or are bullshit unchallenged.
“Instead of allowing private developers to take two-thirds of new-build projects in redevelopments of state land, 30 to 40 per cent of new residences would be KiwiBuild, he said.” Um, if a developer takes 2/3rds, that left 33.3% ie between 30 & 40 %. No change.
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October 25, 2017 3:36pm
Ross12

Only in the USA ( the place is going crazy)

“A University of Illinois math professor believes that algebra and geometry perpetuate “white privilege” because Greek terms give Caucasians unearned credit for the subject.”
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October 25, 2017 3:39pm
- rangitoto
  
  Euclid’s Elements was still being used as the primary geometry textbook two thousand years after it was written and wasn’t superceded until modern time. I suppose modern algebra owes something to Al-Khwarizmi who was caucasian in any case.
  
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  October 25, 2017 3:48pm
- Kimbo
  
  But the Greek alphabet was derived from the Phoenicians, which in turn derives from Semitic equivalents, hence the similarity between the Greek, Hebrew and Arabic alphabets
  
  alpha, beta, gamma, delta
  
  aleph, beth, gimel, daleth
  
  alif, ba, ta, tha
  
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  October 25, 2017 3:57pm
  - rangitoto
    
    The bronze age Greek language used Linear B script. They appeared to lose that with the great collapse at the end of the bronze age and adopted a version of phoenecian script possibly spread by the “sea peoples”, whoever they were.
    
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    October 25, 2017 4:14pm
    - Jack5
      
      The miracle of Macronics
      
      Rangitoto, you say sea peoples?
      
      Aha, we thought macrons were invented in Ancient Greece. The word, macron, reports Wikipedia, begins as the Greek μακρoν (makron), meaning ‘long’, since it was used to mark long or heavy syllables in Greco-Roman metrics.
      
      Perhaps the Waitangi Tribunal should look to claim a against Greece for breach of copyright by copying macrons from “sea peoples”. Indigenous folk must stick together.
      
      The tribunal might as well be in for a penny in for a pound and seek a stake in the Suez Canal, given waka would have had to be carried over the Isthmus of Suez.
      
      1 0
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      October 25, 2017 7:08pm
Captain Mainwaring

The joys of multiculturalism in Labour’s biggest majority seat.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/98218935/huge-brawl-breaks-out-in-south-auckland-paknsave-supermarket
8 1
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October 25, 2017 3:52pm
- starboard
  
  “Dem muttonflaps are mine bro, I’ll smash you, I touched dem first man”
  
  7 1
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  October 25, 2017 3:56pm
  - Brito
    
    The best bit was the education value that came out of this. Several parents could be seen bringing their children towards the fight so they could get a better view.
    
    “Now see da fella on d left, he’s swinging his punches. S’no good- jab, jab – roundhouse, kick, kick flee the scene. Got dat boy?”
    
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    October 25, 2017 4:06pm
- greybeard
  
  I understand that it will now be known as the Mangere “Smack-n-Save”
  
  9 0
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  October 25, 2017 4:42pm
KevOB

LABOUR AND MC CARTEN

I have just received a letter from the Office of the Auditor General about that matter.
Precised:
Parliamentary Services were scrutinised for Party and Member Support appropriations. Specific questions and evidence was sought in relation to Matt McCarten.

“The appointed auditor concluded that the particular payments were within the scope and amount of the relevant appropriation.”

Excellent, that the public have access to such quality oversight.
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October 25, 2017 3:56pm
lifesgood

You’ve got to keep your eye on WO no matter how distasteful. He is now saying that Kiwiblog could be in danger of being sued or closed down because some posters are inciting violence. I hope posters refrain from such posts. Please don’t endanger KB, the best blog around. WO is crowing that closing KB would send DPF’s followers to him. I don’t think so, buddy.
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October 25, 2017 4:03pm
- Brito
  
  One person makes a mistake and the venue is under threat?
  
  Whale blubber will not pick up many from this site….or will he?
  
  7 0
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  October 25, 2017 4:08pm
  - nasska
    
    DPF deleted the offending comment when it was pointed out to him. (see comments policy at bottom of page). Under the “safe harbour” provisions of the relevant act he should be well in the clear:
    
    …..”The safe harbour
    will mean that a host is not able to be taken to court for the comments put on their website unless
    they:
    
    have been notified
    by the complainant
    that the comments are
    a breach of the law; and
    
    don’t remove it within a reasonable time.”……
    
    https://www.beehive.govt.nz/sites/all/files/FAQs_Harmful_Digital_Communications_Bill.pdf
    
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    October 25, 2017 4:22pm
- Gruffydd
  
  Those who insist on going to Cams echochamber and dragging bits of chaff here are a fucken pain.
  If I wanted to read what a fat retard thinks I would go there my self .
  Waletard’s blog has little of value .
  Its just a pay for play echo chamber for low rent fuckwits .
  The worse is when whaletards come here with their stupid ideas and think they add value.
  
  12 4
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  October 25, 2017 4:42pm
  - nasska
    
    It’s not much different from “True Blue” Griff. Whale posts something then all the commenters agree profusely while forming a circle & wanking towards the centre. Pete weeds out the ones who miss the biscuit. 🙂
    
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    October 25, 2017 4:49pm
    - Gruffydd
      
      AKA Sycophantic circle jerk.
      
      5 2
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      October 25, 2017 4:58pm
Michael

Oh dear, how sad , never mind.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/music/95132686/national-party-loses-court-decision-on-use-of-eminemesque-song
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October 25, 2017 4:16pm
VicParking

Fellow drovers deranged words from WO: “If Kiwiblog ever closes down David Farrar’s audience will descend en masse on Whaleoil. I can see that there will have to be a fair bit of work on our part to educate them on how to comment responsibly.”
The man has gone over the edge. He has an article on Idi Amin today maybe its gone to his head.
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October 25, 2017 4:17pm
- Brito
  
  Just went and had a look at the general comment section on Oil Slicks site. 63 participants and what a milksop crew. As I said earlier – keep writing with the edge and grit which, at times makes me weep, but mainly keeps it real – except Griff (some sense of humour so all is not lost) and maybe Gobby (although she can be endearing).
  
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  October 25, 2017 4:29pm
Nostradamus

treadingthemill says above:

That post [by Penny] is far too long.

I agree with treadingthemill that ‘Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see” is still too long. Penny should make her point more succinctly next time!
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October 25, 2017 6:13pm
- nasska
  
  Brevity is one bullet that Penny successfully dodged Nostra. 🙂
  
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  October 25, 2017 6:29pm
- sooty
  
  I would prefer she didn’t!
  
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  October 25, 2017 6:47pm
starboard

A good read.

http://www.hobsonspledge.nz

The scoundrel Peters is as crooked as a bag of snakes.
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October 25, 2017 6:24pm
- Brito
  
  But, but…he promised. How can this be?
  
  I’m devastated.
  
  Speaking of snakes – have you looked under your bed?
  
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  October 25, 2017 6:28pm
Jack5

If the new Government is to bring immigration under control it will have to sack the bleeding hearts who dominate the Immigration and Protection Tribunal.

Hundreds of parents who came in on short-term visas overstayed, and now Third Worlders are bringing in children with special needs or serious health problems. These entrants will stifle plans to focus smaller immigration on highly skilled, in demand people.

It won’t be easy, with the Leftist media’s feministas turning appeals into heart-wrenching sob stories.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/98226096/immigration-nz-made-serious-error-in-denying-autistic-bangladeshi-boy-residency-tribunal-rules
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October 25, 2017 6:45pm
Manolo

The Clintons are scum, lowest of the low:
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/clinton-campaign-dnc-helped-pay-for-work-on-dossier-about-russia-and-trump/

The Hillary Clinton campaign and the Democratic National Committee (DNC) helped fund research that resulted in a now-famous dossier containing allegations about Donald Trump’s connections to Russia and possible coordination between his campaign and the Kremlin, people familiar with the matter said.

Marc Elias, a lawyer representing the Clinton campaign and the DNC, retained Fusion GPS, a Washington, D.C., firm, to conduct the research. Fusion GPS hired dossier author Christopher Steele, a former British intelligence officer with ties to the FBI and the U.S. intelligence community.
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October 25, 2017 6:56pm
Manolo

Investigating the corrupt investigator:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-fbis-political-meddling-1508883468
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October 25, 2017 6:59pm
- Ross12
  
  It’s all coming to a head Manolo. When you have the NYT and WaPost breaking stories about it you know they realise they have been taken as fools and now they are back pedalling like crazy.
  If Sessions does not appoint a special prosecutor for the issues there will be “riots”. A lot of elites are going to dragged into the net one way or another.
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:42pm
mikenmild

Great TV programme on the Shine channel at the moment:

Godonomics explores biblical teaching about liberty, prosperity and generosity. It presents God’s desire for his people to free to profit from their efforts so that they may be a blessing to others.
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October 25, 2017 7:06pm
- Jack5
  
  Max Weber – The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism.
  
  Look at how many born-agains are good business people. It’s not just that they seldom drink or gamble or smoke.
  
  Weber was on the right track.
  
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  October 25, 2017 7:12pm
  - mikenmild
    
    Here’s an example of a good business person:
    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Creflo_Dollar
    
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    October 25, 2017 7:18pm
  - Jack5
    
    Here’s a summary of Weber’s view taken from an analysis on the SparkNotes web site:
    
    Calvinists believe that God has already determined who is saved and damned. As Calvinism developed, a need arose for clues about whether one was actually saved. Calvinists looked to their worldly success for those clues. They came to regard profit and material success as signs of God’s favour.
    
    Other Protestant groups, such as the Pietists, Methodists, and the Baptists, had similar attitudes.
    
    Weber argues that this new attitude broke down the traditional economic system, paving the way for modern capitalism. Once capitalism emerged, the Protestants’ ethic took on a life of its own.
    
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    October 25, 2017 7:24pm
    - mikenmild
      
      Weber is particularly close to my heart as the first scholar to describe the essential aspects of modern bureaucracy.
      
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      October 25, 2017 7:28pm
- nasska
  
  …..”it presents God’s desire for his people to free to profit from their efforts so that they may be a blessing to others”…..
  
  All that info must have been on one of the scrolls that was only recently discovered Mike. The Godnutters I know hold onto their earthly treasures with a death grip. 🙂
  
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  October 25, 2017 7:13pm
- treadingthemill
  
  Didn’t Jesus say something about greed, materialism, giving up your possessions to help the poor, and wealth being barrier to entering the kingdom?
  
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  October 25, 2017 7:29pm
  - nasska
    
    Yeah…..but they gloss over that. Jesus only really meant the bits that the Godaddled think should apply to them. 🙂
    
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    October 25, 2017 7:32pm
    - treadingthemill
      
      Some of them gloss over a lot when it suits them. From his posts EAD seems to be a Christian, but the lover your neighbor does not seem to have impacted him much at all.
      
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      October 25, 2017 7:36pm
      - Gruffydd
        
        EAD is not a Christian
        He is agnostic.
        Like a lot of right wing authoritarians he views the church as a way to control society. His mentor redtwit was the same.
        
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        October 25, 2017 7:47pm
    - mikenmild
      
      Apparently some of them try to reinterpret ‘it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God’ to mean something about a narrow doorway in Jerusalem…
      
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      October 25, 2017 7:43pm
  - Nostradamus
    
    treadingthemill:
    
    Didn’t Jesus say something about greed, materialism, giving up your possessions to help the poor, and wealth being barrier to entering the kingdom?
    
    Destiny Church’s Brian and Hannah Tamaki move into $1.58m luxury home
    
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    October 25, 2017 7:51pm
mikenmild

I must say that it is entertaining television watching Mike Hosking on Seven Sharp work his way through items on Jacinda Ardern’s old high school principal, Jacinda Ardern’s cat, etc, etc..
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October 25, 2017 7:20pm
- nasska
  
  What has the cat revealed Mike? 🙂
  
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  October 25, 2017 7:25pm
  - mikenmild
    
    I think you can follow it on Twitter or Facebook…
    
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    October 25, 2017 7:39pm
    - stigie
      
      You can see he’s putting on a brave face when Ardern and the new government is mentioned.
      Unfortunately, like the rest of us, we have to suck it up !~
      
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      October 25, 2017 7:56pm
    - rangitoto
      
      Comrade Jacinda is a good one to follow on facebook.
      
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      October 25, 2017 8:56pm
ex-golfer

When the Sugar-Daddy had his press conference this afternoon he as asked about the policy to plant 100 million trees a year – and specifically who would be doing it.

When pressed if the unemployed would be used he said “Yes”.

Good luck getting that idea to fly Winnie – the unemployed won’t get out of bed/off the couch to plant your bloody trees!
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October 25, 2017 7:28pm
- Longknives
  
  Bullshit Winston- The Greens/Labour have already said they will remove ALL sanctions from Beneficiaries…So you couldn’t possibly force them to plant trees (or in fact do any ‘work’)
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:14pm
- waikatogirl
  
  The useless lay-about I know of could not physically manage to pick up a seedling, let alone plant it. He certainly couldn’t get himself to the country to plant the wee trees. ?
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:40pm
Jack5

What’s going on with the media criticism of the American Ambassador to NZ?

Did he stuff up in Samoa, or is it just a feminista lynch mob on his scent?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/98231060/us-ambassador-to-new-zealand-scott-brown-faces-complaints-over-comments-to-women
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October 25, 2017 7:38pm
- Manolo
  
  The same hairy feminists of always. 😀
  
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  October 25, 2017 7:43pm
- waikatogirl
  
  Note to Ambassador Scott Brown. It is not cultural, it is people looking to be offended.
  
  Thank you for the great job you are doing.
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:46pm
- realityczech
  
  Get used to it Jackie. You wait until the man haters in Labour start making misandry a legal requirement.
  
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  October 25, 2017 9:00pm
Longknives

The Left in NZ have only just picked up that Jimmy Carr isn’t what you might call ‘PC’…
And they are shrieking their ‘outrage’-

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/stage-and-theatre/97929750/the-joke-jimmy-carr-shouldnt-tell-in-new-zealand–or-anywhere-else-ever-again

Jimmy Carr is bloody brilliant- He doesn’t hold back and nothing is Sacred. Unlike New Zealand’s so-called ‘Comedians’ he doesn’t give a shit about Political Persuasion or who he might offend…
Go see the guy- You won’t be disappointed (Yep he even rips the shit out of Muslims..)
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October 25, 2017 7:55pm
- stigie
  
  Jimmy Carr, bloody brilliant alright !~
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2_HbqPpQDk
  
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  October 25, 2017 8:03pm
nasska

“I caught my twelve-year-old son looking up women’s skirts today,” the bloke told the barman after his second quick whiskey.

“That’s pretty normal for a twelve-year-old”, said the barman.

“Not on fucking Trade Me it isn’t!”
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October 25, 2017 8:51pm
ex-golfer

Oh dear – the Greens led by newly annointed soon-to-be Associate Minister of Finance are struggling to pay their election bills:
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/10/green-party-struggling-to-pay-election-campaign-bills.html
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October 25, 2017 9:44pm
Left Right and Centre

celebrating diversity with your host, LR&C . . .

Young cuzzy bro swearing into phone – ghetto speak, braindead sounding – cool.

Under five running across dark supermarket car park with car coming – chased by moron Indian variety man.

Two Asian fob student women tooted at by car in car park – they’re slowly and rudely and obliviously walking right in the middle, totally in the way. Bad short bowl haircuts and Dame Edna would love the glasses. I *think* they were women . . .

(plenty of scruffy kiwis too – well don’t add to them with overseas losers)
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October 26, 2017 4:50am
Left Right and Centre

I saw in DPF provided vote stats . . .

Wellington Central 21% party vote green – and it was 29% in 2014.

I’ve told you – don’t drink from the farking bucket fountain you braindead shitheads !!
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October 26, 2017 5:01am
Digmen1

I think the two day honey moon where people thought the new Government would not be too bad has finished.

Now people will realise their true colours!
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October 26, 2017 4:54pm
Digmen1

Jacinda
Two quotes today
“New Zealand was a wonderful place.”
“We are going to work hard ?
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October 26, 2017 5:02pm
Digmen1

It seems that Phil Goff is the only person in Auckland who thinks the new petrol levy is a good idea
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October 26, 2017 5:03pm

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