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July 1, 2017 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 1 July 2017

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CJames

For those that have always believed that the industrial arm of the Greens plays fast and loose with the facts, vindication has come in a series of cases before the North American courts. Greenpeace (GP) made a series of high profile accusations about a big Canadian logging company, alleging serious environmental damage and promoting high publicity protest actions against it. The company, Resolute, didn’t roll over but agressively pursued GP through the courts for libel. Among other things, there is the claim that GP are more interested in fundraising than environmentalism. This ties in with the removal of charity status for the NGO. Resolute has already had major successes. https://www.outsideonline.com/2185831/logging-company-sues-greenpeace
http://business.financialpost.com/news/greenpeace-admits-its-attacks-on-forest-products-giant-were-non-verifiable-statements-of-subjective-opinion/wcm/c80fcfa3-38c7-43a4-88a3-f9fc41e31232
The court action has caused a major backdown on claims. When its statements were challenged, the facts suddenly became opinions. In a classic newspeak, GP adds that its attacks on Resolute “are without question non-verifiable statements of subjective opinion and at most non-actionable rhetorical hyperbole.”
The loggers also want GP to be investigated for racketeering under the RICO legislation.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/05/31/no-peace-for-greenpeace/?utm_term=.d68cba034311
That is poetic justice as GP wanted a number of companies investigated under the same laws for climate change denial. Now they are defendants, things are getting squishy.
Isn’t it strange that none of the news organisations here have reported the court cases? Though it is still before the courts, what has come out so far has been damaging enough.
Get in the popcorn
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July 1, 2017 8:01am
- Awww C-mon
  
  That is a pleasant way to start GD.
  
  Poor WoO will be in fits, beaten to the draw with a post showing GP for bastards they are!
  
  ????
  
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  July 1, 2017 8:09am
  - Gruffydd
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    The logic error?
    non sequitur
    
    W of O has never linked to Greenpeace.
    The connection is in your head .
    As is confusing Greenpeace’s action against logging company’s with the action against the oil companies.
    The action against exon is being taken by attorney generals of states not Greenpeace.
    It is documented that exon and others have funded climate change denial.
    It is also documented that the so call “scientists” on the septic side are paid shills for oil and coal.
    Anyone who confuses climate change with logging has issues with reality .
    as to the Mann case.
    Greenpeace is not involved in anyway .
    So again a connection in someones head not based on reality.
    
    Illogical Nutters .
    
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    July 1, 2017 8:45am
    - CJames
      
      As usual Griff, you are being economical with the truth. Greenpeace urged RICO action against the oil companies.
      http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/its-time-the-department-of-justice-must-investigate-exxon/
      And by the way? what happened to that RICO case – didn’t a lot of the attorney generals get sacked?
      The type of fake news and lying behavior that is documented is why Greenpeace is no longer a charity in Canada
      http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/greenpeace-loses-charitable-status-1.170262
      
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      July 1, 2017 9:01am
      - Gruffydd
        
        Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
        So Greenpeace. thinks the action is a good idea
        and…..
        So do many other organizations.
        They are not involved in taking the case.
        Sacking attorney generals to make a lawsuit go away is ok ?
        We have a principle of law that it should be above political interference for obvious reasons .
        That the usa falls down in this respect doesn’t make it OK.
        
        Tobacco has already lost a suit with the same implications as the rico agsint Exxon .
        http://www.publichealthlawcenter.org/topics/tobacco-control/tobacco-control-litigation/united-states-v-philip-morris-doj-lawsuit
        The organizations involved in both attempts to confuse the public are often the same
        It is only a matter of time before the same result is found against Exxon .
        The suit is for the organized denial at direct odds with the research Exxon had made into climate change and the resulting fraud on its shareholders .
        
        By the way
        labeling anything you disagree with fake news is just pathetic.
        
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        July 1, 2017 9:22am
      - ztev
        
        Bring in the Riot Police.
        Greenpeace has ‘urged’ something
        
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        July 1, 2017 9:49am
      - CJames
        
        Griff, please stop your spraying.
        The AGs had to pull out of the RICO case because they realized they had no evidence. Even the instigator from NY had to back down
        http://www.insidesources.com/schneiderman-forced-to-walk-back-exxon-attacks-refocus-legal-campaign/
        And he was put up to it by the environmental activist organisations
        http://dailycaller.com/2016/04/18/new-york-ag-tried-to-cover-up-activist-involvement-in-exxon-probe/
        Your comments about trying to confuse the public apply exactly to GP. That was why they said their “facts” were really only strong opinions. And their logged area damage was actually windfall. That is what makes it fake news. They lied.
        
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        July 1, 2017 10:50am
      - Kimbo
        
        @ ztev & Gruffydd
        
        Bring in the Riot Police.
        Greenpeace has ‘urged’ something
        
        So Greenpeace. thinks the action is a good idea
        and…
        
        …and they aren’t just anyone. They are an organisation with the specific purpose to operate as a high profile international pressure group, in effect a white knight of environmental justice. So when their credibility is called into question on one matter, then it’s fair to ask the question, “could the same possibly apply to other environmental actions for which they are pressuring and/or supporting?”
        
        Because that;s what happens when one forfeits credibility. Whoever is initiating the legal action, Greenpeace or a states attorney is irrelevant. If Greenpeace supports it, then there is reason to consider it may be suspect.
        
        So no, not a non-sequitur.
        
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        July 1, 2017 11:48am
      - Gruffydd
        
        weee giff learized new logic from kimbo.
        there is reason to consider
        
        The catholic Church has been proven to be guilty of covering up pedophilia by its priest hood
        Other churches also support the belief in Jesus
        “there is reason to consider” the other churches are also covering up pedophilia
        From this we can deduce that a significant amount of pedophilia is directly liked to all churches and many priests fiddly kiddys
        as Kimbo is a doctor of thoelogy we can….
        
        Another new logic.
        Calendar girl supported maggy from attack when she was caught out with a blatant misrepresentation of a scientific papers content.
        From this “there is reason to consider” that calendar girl’s every statement is blatant misrepresentation.
        
        kimbo rhetoric is not logic .
        
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        July 1, 2017 2:50pm
      - Kimbo
        
        The catholic Church has been proven to be guilty of covering up pedophilia by its priest hood
        Other churches ~~also support the belief in Jesus~~ have similar dynamics so
        “there is reason to consider” the other churches are also covering up pedophilia
        
        …kimbo rhetoric is not logic .
        
        Indeed. That’s why I fixed that for ya. Pedophilia in the catholic church is a good indication it occurs in others. You do know a valid “reason to consider” is different from “proven fact”, don’t you? Oops. And there’s the failure in your logic
        
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        July 1, 2017 2:53pm
      - Gruffydd
        
        There is no reason to consider as the investigation was by state attorney generals not green piece or a ecological lobby group.
        The push for them to prosecute came from within the scientific community not from ecological lobby groups .
        james used another logic error to poison the wall
        he represented green piece as dishonest then used that to caste suspicion on an unrelated investigation.
        
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        July 1, 2017 3:30pm
      - CJames
        
        No Griff, the DAs weren’t pushed by any scientific body. It was the environmental activists (which included Naomi Ages of GP) as the email trail showed.
        http://www.mass.gov/ago/docs/energy-utilities/exxon/exxon-pj-appendix.pdf
        Their original idea came from another group of activists here:
        http://www.climateaccountability.org/pdf/Climate%20Accountability%20Rpt%20Oct12.pdf And that backstory is why a number of states pulled out. But then that is fake news in your eyes isn’t it, because it doesn’t fit with your preconceived notions. There is only NY left in it now, and that state has drop its investigation. And guess what? The major funders for the NY DA’s re-election were Mr Soros and extended family (which now includes the Clintons). Follow the money.
        If Exxon is such a baddy, why don’t all the progressives have a BDS campaign against it and stop using their products? Could it be that they provide much of the aviation fuel so all those concerned snowflakes wouldn’t be able to fly to their climate conferences?
        By the way, and has others have pointed out, the fact that you continue to resort to childish namecalling shows the weakness of your arguments.
        
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        July 1, 2017 4:07pm
      - Gruffydd
        
        Your link Posted to Energy August 19, 2016
        
        This is your claim that the investigation had to back down?
        May 23, 2017
        
        ExxonMobil lost its appeal on Tuesday to keep records held by its auditors away from the New York attorney general’s climate fraud probe.
        
        The documents could afford a candid—and perhaps damaging—glimpse into Exxon’s private calculations of the business risks posed by climate change. They could contain anything from a smoking gun email to plodding, yet revealing, discussions related to Exxon’s posture on global warming, including whether the company was adequately calculating climate change risks for investors. Exxon still has another opportunity to appeal.
        
        https://insideclimatenews.org/news/23052017/exxon-climate-fraud-investigation-new-york-attorney-general-pwc-auditor-appeal
        
        Any organization that is going to push such a prosecution by your definition is alarmist eco nuts.
        As is every major scientific body, the governments of over 99% of the country’s in the world, our own government. etc, etc, etc .
        
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        July 1, 2017 4:23pm
      - CJames
        
        Read what the original request was in 2015 to what is now being asked for and even you will see it is a backdown
        
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        July 1, 2017 4:29pm
    - Gruffydd
      
      The logic error?
      non sequitur
      
      W of O has never linked to Greenpeace.
      The connection is in your head .
      As is confusing Greenpeace’s action against logging company’s with the action against the oil companies.
      The action against exon is being taken by attorney generals of states not Greenpeace.
      It is documented that exon and others have funded climate change denial.
      It is also documented that the so call “scientists” on the septic side are paid shills for oil and coal.
      Anyone who confuses climate change with logging has issues with reality .
      as to the Mann case.
      Greenpeace is not involved in anyway .
      So again a connection in someones head not based on reality.
      
      Illogical Nutters .
      
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      July 1, 2017 10:53am
      - calendar girl
        
        Griff, labeling anyone you disagree with as “Illogical Nutters” is (to use your own words) just pathetic.
        
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        July 1, 2017 11:15am
      - CJames
        
        The connection wasn’t in Awww C-mon’s head, it was just that you can’t read, Griff. He never said the unlamented WoO linked to Greenpeace.
        
        And by the way, where is Exxon funding climate change denial? They may have paid a few scientists money for specific research (which Greenpeace does all the time), but that is a long way from what you are claiming. You are using your usual smear tactics because the facts are inconveniently against you.
        Even if they were funding it, they must have a really good campaign manager. The $20M they put into all the groups for a variety of causes has swayed public opinion a lot more than the billions put in by the CAGW lobby.
        
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        July 1, 2017 11:57am
      - Gruffydd
        
        The cagw lobby james ?
        You mean every major scientific body on the planet
        and the governments of almost all country’s.
        Lets discus that .
        Because every single time I bring that up to you nuts it gets ignored or discounted with some piece of inane stubidty.
        The alarmists the scientific community are the group we should listen to.
        
        By the way billions ?
        Show us the money or its just more WWWfactdsi pullerdformmyarse I expect from whacks like you.
        Bullshite in other words.
        
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        July 1, 2017 3:10pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  I don’t believe I read of any of these Greenpeace’s scams in NZ newspapers.
  
  http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/27/greenpeace-loses-credibility-in-the-wake-of-huge-scandals/
  
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  July 1, 2017 8:10am
  - Manolo
    
    All this while comrade Norman is on a good salary and filling his pockets…
    
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    July 1, 2017 8:37am
- Paulus
  
  Why are they still a Registered Tax Free Charity in New Zealand ?
  
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  July 1, 2017 8:20am
  - ross411
    
    Why do Maori tribal settlement recipients, whose ancestors also were white, get tax free status and millions of taxpayer money? Why, indeed.
    
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    July 1, 2017 9:17am
  - ztev
    
    because the courts said they were following the legal requirements
    
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    July 1, 2017 9:50am
    - cmm
      
      Well we could change the messed up laws, except for kisses and cuddles from the MPs.
      
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      July 1, 2017 11:08am
      - Kimbo
        
        Then you would have to do the same for churches, incorporated societies and other entities that don’t exist for the express and primary purpose of making a profit, but instead to do good for its members.
        
        I have no problem with that, in principle, because if one of those organisations engage in economic activity, arguably they should pay tax. But just be aware of the “unintended consequences” of seeking to tax the economic activity of iwi – economic activity, because that existed, in the form of inter-tribal trading, a long time before 1840, e.g., pounamu/greenstone, titi/mutton birds and shrunken human heads. Now it encompasses the likes of casinos, tourist ventures and scholarship programs.
        
        So maybe an attempt to “change the messed up laws” could involve more of a “mess up”. And certainly more complexity, and tax administration costs.
        
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        July 1, 2017 12:01pm
      - Jack5
        
        I think Kimbo is wrong in his 12.01 post by implying that incorporated societies as a group are exempt from tax.
        
        The closest to that is the IRD spelling out for incorporated societies which don’t have shares on issue to members:
        
        “ … [They can] carry forward tax losses and offset income and losses against the income and losses of companies in the same group.
        
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        July 1, 2017 12:37pm
      - Kimbo
        
        @ Jack5
        
        Sorry, yes, you are right, and I’ve learned never to question your vastly superior and invariably accurate legal knowledge 😉
        
        Was changed a couple of years ago
        
        http://www.ird.govt.nz/business-income-tax/paying-tax/tax-rates/bit-taxrates-non-profittax.html
        
        ….so now the Waikakamukau Rugby Club is liable to be taxed if their sausage sizzles make too much money. Sledgehammer and walnut come to mind, including valuable voluntary time that benefits the community wasted filling out forms to qualify for exemptions. 😉
        
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        July 1, 2017 12:46pm
    - Jack5
      
      Ztev, you are spouting bullshit as usual.
      
      Ngai Tahu’s many companies operate tax free, because they have a group registration as a charity. That’s why the Seventh Day Adventists’ Santarium businesses also operate free of company tax. Many charities, such as Amnesty Aotearoa NZ get the same privilege as charities.
      
      As far as I am aware Ngai Tahu is one of only two Maori tribes whose businesses operate free of company tax.
      
      The tax exemption for all charities should be axed.
      
      It has nothing to do with what Ztev claimed in his post – “because the courts said they were following the legal requirement.”
      
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      July 1, 2017 12:26pm
- peterwn
  
  There is danger and issues with this sort of litigation. Gunns (forestry interests) in Tasmania over-used defamation laws to silence dissent. There was the long running McLibel defamation case in London that got out of hand and left McDonalds and the Metropolitan Police (a police officer told McDonalds who certain protesters were facilitating serving the lawsuits – MP settled out of court for 20000 quid for this) with egg on their faces. Then there was Chiropractors v Singh case where Simon Singh called out chiropractors for their advocating bogus treatments for children).
  Then closer to home we had Crosby-Textor v Hager. Those taking the lawsuits effectively failed.
  Therefore business needs to carefully consider how to handle such situations – they need to take advice from damage control and public relations experts and consider this in conjunction with legal advice. Lawyers tend to think that problems can be solved by legal action alone – IMO McLibel went on as long as it did as the lawyers knew they were on a gravy train – that the defendants were in no position to pay damages or costs was irrelevant to them.
  So I would not laugh too much at this legal success against Greenpeace.
  
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  July 1, 2017 8:25am
  - CJames
    
    You are right about trying to silence dissent (In the US, it is called SLAPP cases) can backfire, but I think Resolute is a different situation. They have had very vocal support from both unions and First Nation leaders in Canada. The courts have also already ruled in their favour.
    GP also knows it is in the wrong as it has had to do major backdowns. They don’t like admitting that.
    
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    July 1, 2017 8:34am
- ross411
  
  The word of the day is: comeuppance.
  
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  July 1, 2017 9:11am
  - ztev
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    Ask Lani Hagerman about that, her comeuppance has cost her plenty
    
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    July 1, 2017 9:52am
    - waikatogirl
      
      Nasty and unnecessary.
      
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      July 1, 2017 10:01am
      - ztev
        
        Yes , agree totally on the litigation
        
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        July 1, 2017 11:14am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      She got her apology from Andrew Little (albeit very late in the piece).
      
      If you are in any way connected to Andrew Little or the Labour party hierarchy, your attacks here on the Hagamans indicate that Little’s apology was not genuine.
      
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      July 1, 2017 10:03am
      - Paulus
        
        The Court found Little guilty of defaming Hagaman.
        We are awaiting the Court’s decision as to Littles’ punishment.
        September, I understand it will return to court for punishment.
        It matters not if as I understand the Lawyers that Hagaman himself has died as judgement was made prior to his death.
        
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        July 1, 2017 1:28pm
    - Rachael Membery
      
      Who were you again, other than a sad individual?
      
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      July 1, 2017 11:08am
      - ztev
        
        Zip it , sweetie
        
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        July 1, 2017 11:14am
    - rightoverlabour
      
      Effing typical of ztev. I do believe we should apply for exemption on the “no cunt” rule in dealing with ztev.
      
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      July 1, 2017 4:32pm
- Tauhei Notts
  
  “Non actionable rhetorical hyperbole”
  Could I have a Maori interpretation of that phrase, please.
  
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  July 1, 2017 10:02am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    All hui, no doey.
    
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    July 1, 2017 10:47am
Keeping Stock

I was missing in action for much of yesterday, so I missed the debate on DPF’s excellent letter of complaint to the Electoral Commission.

I’ve just noticed where ztev made this comment, and thought I’d continue it over here, along with my reply. That way ztev’s weak defence of Labour can be exposed to sunlight:

ztev

So many errors.
but the main one is McCarten stopped being Chief of Staff ( I hate that americanism) August last year and stopped being employed by labour about a month back.
The whole point was he was to move over to doing his own show.
Thumb up 0 Thumb down 18 REPLY REPORT
JUNE 30, 2017 3:58PM

Here’s my reply:

Exactly ztev; Labour realised McCarten was campaigning on the public tit, and moved him on in the hope that no one would find out.

What Labour should have done at that point was immediately go the the Speaker and the head of Parliamentary Service, admit McCarten had been unlawfully campaigning on a taxpayer salary, make an offer to pay back the salary that had been paid to McCarten since he was exiled to Auckland, and apologise to New Zealand.

Did they do that? We all know the answer to that

Little claims to have shown leadership by front-footing this. The reality however is somewhat different.

Either he has known about this for a long time earler than Monday 19th June, in which case he has misled the public and the Parliamentary Service. The alternative is that this entire scam has been going on under his nose without his knowledge or permission, and his staff have deliberately broken the rules around taxpayer funded election campaigning.

Neither alternative does him credit, and both go right to the heart of his fitness to lead New Zealand. If he has been part of a deliberate campaign to mislead, he should apologise and resign. If however he cannot even manage one rogue employee, how can he expect to manage an ambitious Cabinet and Caucus, especially when that Cabinet is likely to require the presence of Parliament’s rogue of longest standing, Rt Hon Winston Peters?
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July 1, 2017 8:17am
- Paulus
  
  Do not photographs show him and Jacinderella and others with the unemployed unpaid interns before June 19th.
  Liars all.
  
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  July 1, 2017 8:22am
  - Keeping Stock
    
    I believe that is the case Paulus.
    
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    July 1, 2017 8:27am
  - Yvette
    
    Twitter Marja Lubeck, June 15, 2017 –
    As well as interns, included in the photos are Labour leader Andrew Little, Jacinda Ardern, Kelvin Davis, and others. “Amazing turnout last night at our North Shore public meeting!” (June 14, Birkenhead Labour meeting 7.30pm)
    
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    July 1, 2017 9:37am
    - ztev
      
      Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
      A public meeting ?
      
      Surely some one… anyone … had the dictaphone running ?
      
      I shot all that crap down about shared office as well, its only wrong when labour do it.
      
      My own personal view is that party and Mps offices shouldn’t even be in the same building and there is no link between ownership either.
      An Australian Senator lost his seat this year because ‘ had an interest’ in an office building that housed his electorate office.
      
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      July 1, 2017 10:01am
  - KevOB
    
    PDF archive of Labour Interns — growing daily
    —————————————–
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzSYCyt06Oj8LWtxVTZ1UEk1ekk
    —————————————-
    
    Please pass it on.
    
    A linked thumbnail page would be helpful. Any ideas of an easy way to do that?
    Regards.
    
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    July 1, 2017 10:25am
    - cha
      
      That’s nice, after a fifty year hiatus, scrap booking’s back.
      
      /
      
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      July 1, 2017 10:31am
    - ztev
      
      The beehive could be helpfull for that. They have staff and a leaders fund to tap into. Jason Ede used to do this thing full time until someone called it Dirty Politics
      
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      July 1, 2017 11:17am
      - Keeping Stock
        
        “Hey Clint; are we pleased about that?”
        
        https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/comment-why-greens-hey-clint-moment-matters-rh-139243
        
        Of course after that, David Cunliffe went out and head-hunted Hey Clint for Labour’s leader’s office. So don’t play the shocked innocent ztev; it doesn’t wash.
        
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        July 1, 2017 11:40am
      - Gabby
        
        What’s Jason Evil up to these days? Upstanding honest open things, no doubt at all, notatall.
        
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        July 1, 2017 12:12pm
- peterwn
  
  This sort of reasoning is not going to make the 6 o’clock news. It takes a cunning old pollie such as Winston who knows how to get something on the 6 o’clock news with devastating consequences. He needs to pull National down by 3% or so to become absolute kingmaker and he may well have succeeded.
  
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  July 1, 2017 8:32am
  - kowtow
    
    If he is kingmaker then Notional have only themselves to blame for not addressing immigration concerns.
    
    Likewise the law and order committee on firearms, while Bennett has done the right thing a lot of licensed shooters see that National weren’t on their side in the first instance while NZF were.
    
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    July 1, 2017 8:39am
  - Captain Mainwaring
    
    “and he may well have succeeded.”
    
    In the interests of the good citizens of NZ I sincerely hope he has not.
    I for one will not be putting a ‘protest’ vote in the direction of this charlatan.
    
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    July 1, 2017 10:12am
    - GazzaW
      
      Spot on Captain. It’s very evident to me at Question Time that Winston has now effectively joined the Coalition From Hell with his orchestrated attacks on the Government. Until recently NZF largely did their own thing but this last session has seen very obvious collusion between the three parties.
      
      Protest votes against National are best directed to Act. A VOTE FOR WINSTON IS A PROBABLE VOTE FOR LABOUR AND THE GREENS! I for one won’t be taking that risk.
      
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      July 1, 2017 11:46am
      - niggly
        
        Yep, Horizon polling this year states 77% of polled NZ First voters prefer a coalition with Labour (and up from 67% in 2011)!
        
        Surely Winston wouldn’t want to upset over three-quarters of his supporters by aligning with National in September? After all that’s NOT what his supporters are signing up to NZF for!
        
        https://www.horizonpoll.co.nz/page/winstons-choice-77-of-his-voters-prefer-labour-led
        
        https://www.horizonpoll.co.nz/page/382/large-majorities-of-nz-first-voters-would-prefer-coalition-deal-with-labour
        
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        July 1, 2017 12:16pm
- Awww C-mon
  
  KS
  
  You have hit what I think is the heart of the matter, we often hear how Andrew has smoothed over all the factions and in-fighting. How that is proof if his amazing leadership.
  
  But this shows either the factionalism (?) is worse and his own chief of staff and party hierarchy felt the need to work behind his back, much worse than muttering MPs, or as you say he is an outright liar.
  
  The interns themselves are I think a red herring, who knew what, when and why are the keys. Especially the why.
  
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  July 1, 2017 8:36am
  - Keeping Stock
    
    I agree AC. The biggest “who” of all is who the mystery donor is.
    
    I wonder if DPF subscribes to that old political chestnut that you never ask a question you don’t know the answer to 😎
    
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    July 1, 2017 8:50am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      Over at Pete George’s blog… two possible donors are mentioned…based on a Tau Henare tweet..
      
      Henare is referring to Te Whānau O Waipareira Trust and Manakau Urban Maori Authority.
      
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      July 1, 2017 9:10am
      - waikatogirl
        
        Called that a few days ago Maggy. Mad Matt’s best friend in the world who works for social good and funding it all through the good old taxpayer! No wonder the liabore party are squirrelling on this one.
        
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        July 1, 2017 9:39am
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        @WG…
        ah, missed that.
        
        I’d have expected the above agencies to immediately distance themselves from the rumour, if it lacked substance.
        Labour could close down these rumours immediately by clarifying who is/was the donor.
        
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        July 1, 2017 10:10am
      - Awww C-mon
        
        MUMA? That’s Jackson right?
        
        What’s the timings with Willie’s ‘high list placing’ and the donation…. surely their not that stupid!
        
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        July 1, 2017 10:11am
      - holysheet
        
        Why not be that stupid.
        We are talking about the liabors and a maori taxpayer rort yet again, are we not. The only stupid ones here are the hard suffering taxpayers for letting these fuckwits get away with this time after time.
        
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        July 1, 2017 10:18am
      - Happychappy
        
        I watched and laughed at John Tamihere last week on Q/A and the squirming embarrassing looks and answers he gave about Matt McCarten.
        
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        July 1, 2017 10:25am
      - waikatogirl
        
        That’s ok Maggy, there was a plethora of suggestions. Mine just one of them, a lightbulb moment when all the pieces of the puzzle slotted into place. I’ll eat my hat if I’m wrong. ?
        
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        July 1, 2017 11:32am
      - Keeping Stock
        
        Neither would surprise Maggy. If it was to turn out to be Jackson’s MMUA, wouldn’t that be a tun-up for the books? List placings for sale, and all that.
        
        I think even ztev would get outraged about that, given his “concern” about other matters.
        
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        July 1, 2017 11:43am
    - Steve (North Shore)
      
      KS, I reckon it’s Helen. She wants back in so they now have the money to invite her in. Mad? Maybe, maybe not
      
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      July 1, 2017 3:46pm
      - Keeping Stock
        
        I don’t think you could ever describe Helen as a social service provider receiving funding for government contracts.
        
        Anyway, that would require her spending her own cash and we know how socialists feel about that ?
        
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        July 1, 2017 7:10pm
  - ztev
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    McCarten wasnt his chief of staff for the last 9 months..
    You expect labour leader to accountable for 2 students who didnt have the correct working holiday visa while ignoring the shenanigans of one of its MPs down south where the national leadership knew but did nothing
    
    1 36
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    July 1, 2017 10:04am
    - holysheet
      
      Squirrel
      
      20 1
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      July 1, 2017 10:20am
      - ztev
        
        Found your breeding certificate yet ?
        the one that says you have a fluffy bum, pointy ears and a face like a squashed pumpkin
        
        1 22
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        July 1, 2017 11:19am
      - holysheet
        
        Aw didums. Did I upset you with my dog comment below?
        
        15 1
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        July 1, 2017 11:28am
      - sooty
        
        Nah. Phillip John Smiths hair piece!
        
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        July 1, 2017 12:03pm
- B.L.Zeebub
  
  And will NZs corrupt media bring this to the attention of the public( seeing as they like to tell us, ad nauseum, they are here to keep to politicians honest heh,heh)?
  I think not, apparently the most heinous crime is giving a yank businessman citizenship.
  
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  July 1, 2017 8:45am
  - ztev
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    Its corrupt when its done for the wrong reasons and they then kick out a yank business couple who wanted to make NZ their home.
    
    1 35
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    July 1, 2017 10:06am
    - Nookin
      
      and they then kick out a yank business couple who wanted to make NZ their home.
      
      You forgot the bit about the fact that they did not satisfy the criteria for the grounds upon which they applied and there were no special circumstances.
      
      There is one matter that you may be able to help us with. Thiel was apparently granted citizenship notwithstanding the fact that he had only spent around 12 days in New Zealand all of which, if one can believe the media (and I accept that that is a huge assumption), occurred after he was granted permanent residency by Labour in 2006.
      
      Are you able to tell us the basis upon which he was granted permanent residency when it must have been more than apparent that he did not intend to put his slippers under a bed in New Zealand?
      
      Another matter that surprises me is the way in which the opponents of Thiel’s status focus solely on the fact that he has money. Very few of these opponents mention the fact that he made that money by using his exceptional skills and entrepreneurial ability and, by all accounts, has assisted businesses in New Zealand with those skills and ability. Would you not have thought that that would be the greater focus rather than his bank balance
      
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      July 1, 2017 10:47am
      - ztev
        
        permanent residents dont have to put their slippers under the bed, citizens do.
        The exceptional circumstances for citizens included ‘representing NZ on world stage’ , yet he kept the fact he was a citizen a secret. His latest publicity is backing Trump and making America first
        
        “While tax records show that Thiel gave more than $51 million to his Thiel Foundation between 2012 and 2014, the organization mainly disbursed those funds to science and technology-related causes. Those donations included grants to fledgling life science startups; conservative institutions including the Ayn Rand Institute and Acton Institute; and the Thiel Fellowships”
        
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        July 1, 2017 11:28am
      - Keeping Stock
        
        Wow; Mr Thiel has beliefs and opinions, and is prepared to put his money where his mouth is to support them. I’m shocked!
        
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        July 1, 2017 11:45am
      - Paulus
        
        Didn’t Labour grant Thiel residence ?
        Didn’t Labour give Citizenship, against Departmental, advice to the Chinese crook Liu.
        And the Minister was the new NZ First Deputy Leader Shane Jones, assisted by Dover Samuels.
        We can consider if Koha was made.
        Was not a special Citizenship ceremony made in Parliament for the Mr Liu ?
        
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        July 1, 2017 1:36pm
    - B.L.Zeebub
      
      Whatever you do, don`t let any facts get in the way of your perpetual butthurt, I mean, it`s not like our corrupt media to be selective with the information they provide/suppress in any given agenda driven article they print is it?
      
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      July 1, 2017 11:40am
    - Nookin
      
      permanent residents dont have to put their slippers under the bed, citizens do.
      
      So again, and not even subtly, you blithely ignore the question. On what basis did labour grant permanent residency?
      
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      July 1, 2017 12:09pm
- Swifty
  
  It’s clear that Labour can’t be trusted with public money.
  
  They think nothing of cheating if they think it will further their interests.
  
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  July 1, 2017 8:46am
Manolo

Will he ever stop tweeting?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/06/29/fox-news-poll-voters-say-trumps-tweets-hurting-agenda.html
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July 1, 2017 8:41am
- Inandout
  
  Trump has a typical ‘New York state of mind’, and when he is pushed to the edge by truly despicable journalists, he counter punches. He would be wise to tone down his tweets for sure, but the average American Joe probably secretly admires his non political ways. I quite enjoy Hannity’s opinions as a balance.
  
  http://video.foxnews.com/v/5489504463001/?#sp=show-clips
  
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  July 1, 2017 9:01am
- ross411
  
  I don’t particularly care if he does. Look out the window. What’s out there has more influence on your day to day life, than whatever some American politician is tapping out using plastic keys.
  
  15 1
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  July 1, 2017 9:39am
  - SGA
    
    What’s out there has more influence on your day to day life, than whatever some American politician is tapping out using plastic keys.
    
    Unless it’s the launch codes 🙂 🙂 🙂
    
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    July 1, 2017 11:10am
- Fletch
  
  Newt Gingrich gives a good explanation. He knows Trump and says he is an “instinctive gut fighter”, which has been bred into him and is hard for him to break away from. It’s just who he is. It’s “integral to his personality – you hit him, he’s going to hit you back”.
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkvhGzC89es
  
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  July 1, 2017 12:03pm
  - Steve (North Shore)
    
    Exactly Fletch. Hit him and he is not running off to a social worker whining. Eye for an eye and all that shit. Go Trump – suck it up cupcakes, he is POTUS. Non diplomatic, and that is a good thing
    
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    July 1, 2017 3:50pm
lastmanstanding

Front page NZ Herald mother and grand mother guilty of manslaughter CYPS told 8 times there were problems.

Betcha no one at CYPS held accountable.

But H&S matters in private sector everyone involved would be prosecuted to the full force of the law.

But its different when ‘they’ do it.

In this case “they” are central and local government. The Rules dont apply to them.

They protect each others sorry arses.

They are sick arseholes all of them.
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July 1, 2017 8:45am
- dad4justice
  
  CYPS are that dysfunctional they are dangerous. Year after year the morons at CYPS place vulnerable children in totally inappropriate living arrangements. I would dearly love to know if CYPS are partly responsible for our out of control youth suicide rate? I have dealt with so many parents and grand parents that have been badly treated by this vile bureaucratic inertia. It’s way past time that CYPS is obliterated and replaced with an organisation that has the best interests of the children in their hearts.
  
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  July 1, 2017 8:56am
  - KevOB
    
    Every time they do that they create a new monster. It has been going on for at least 45 years. Social workers (23 yr old graduates) direct children and family futures.
    
    18 1
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    July 1, 2017 9:22am
    - cha
      
      (23 yr old graduates) direct children and family futures.
      
      No they fucking don’t. Parliament’s Statutes direct children and family futures.
      
      5 14
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      July 1, 2017 9:34am
      - KevOB
        
        That has been the case by legislative authority. Please show me to the contrary and I will be delighted.
        
        6 0
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        July 1, 2017 11:08am
      - cha
        
        That has been the case by legislative authority.
        
        WTF does that mean?.
        
        3 3
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        July 1, 2017 11:17am
    - Southern Raider
      
      And if you look at the people who decide to become social workers they generally have fucked up backgrounds to start with. Yet we treat social work as some kind of science, when it is down to individuals making calls based on their own perspectives
      
      23 2
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      July 1, 2017 10:00am
      - ztev
        
        So Sad ! lets put them under the care of religious groups instead?
        
        4 20
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        July 1, 2017 10:08am
      - cha
        
        when it is down to individuals making calls based on their own perspectives
        
        It most certainly is not about individuals making calls based on their own perspectives.
        
        It’s about the state fulfilling obligations set out in legislation.
        
        https://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/service-guidelines/statutory-care-social-work.pdf
        
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        July 1, 2017 10:41am
      - lifesgood
        
        That is so true. I have often wondered why counselors and social workers are often totally screwed up themselves and how they are permitted to get into that type of work. Surely there should be psychological testing beforehand.
        
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        July 1, 2017 11:00am
      - cha
        
        I have often wondered why counselors and social workers are often totally screwed up themselves and how they are permitted to get into that type of work.
        
        What have you done to have had enough contact with counselors and social workers to assert that they’re often totally screwed up themselves?.
        
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        July 1, 2017 11:23am
      - waikatogirl
        
        SR, many who take psychology courses are known to do so to improve their own screwed up lives by trying to discover why and how they themselves tick.
        Same with social workers, many believe they can help others from their own screwed up experiences.
        
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        July 1, 2017 11:41am
      - Deadly pony
        
        All the psychiatrists I know are crazy, that’s for sure.
        
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        July 1, 2017 1:58pm
      - lifesgood
        
        Cha in answer to your question-Plenty. I have dealt with endless counselors in my professional capacity. I do know what I am talking about, sadly.
        
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        July 1, 2017 4:49pm
  - holysheet
    
    It’s not the organisation that’s at fault as such. This goes way back to the beginning. When you have feral kids having more feral kids, and being paid by the taxpayer to do so. Nothing will change until we stop paying them to breed.
    
    You can change the name as often as you like, but the same shitty staff will still be there doing their same shitty job.
    
    37 1
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    July 1, 2017 9:22am
    - ztev
      
      Did your parents have the correct breeding so they too could breed -to produce you
      How many rosettes did they win for best in show?
      
      2 28
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      July 1, 2017 10:10am
      - holysheet
        
        Actually ztev, I won a dinner set for my mum in a beautiful baby contest with my blond curls.
        
        I bet you couldn’t even win the local ugly pup competition.
        
        24 2
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        July 1, 2017 10:24am
      - Kimbo
        
        @ holysheet
        
        Yes, but how did you go at school spelling bees? 😉
        
        4 2
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        July 1, 2017 12:08pm
      - holysheet
        
        Don’t you mean working beas?
        *holysheet-school-of-wilful-and-capricious-spelling
        
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        July 1, 2017 12:40pm
      - Kimbo
        
        *holysheet-school-of-wilful-and-capricious-spelling™
        
        ™ of Kimbo Enterprises 2017
        
        There! Fixed that for ya! 😉
        
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        July 1, 2017 12:54pm
      - holysheet
        
        You are definitely a very very slow learner Kinbo. I have told you before about your using the ™ symbol when you have not actually registered the term as a trademark.
        
        Do try and keep up with the play here.
        
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        July 1, 2017 2:03pm
      - Kimbo
        
        You are definitely a very very slow learner
        
        Meh. That shill of an emphatic adverb gives it away. Your spelling may be challenged, but your capacity to be overly-literal more than compensates, holysheet. Do try and keep up. The capacity to take a joke at your own expense may also help. But you want to keep on acting like a misanthropic arse hole at every opportunity? Far be it from me to stop your fun, or interfere with your brand. Whatever spins your wheels…
        
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        July 1, 2017 2:13pm
    - MCos
      
      Years ago when I left school and joined the workforce things were different.
      People were married a lot younger and tended, overall, to have bigger families. A lot of mothers either didn’t work or were poorly paid. Nevertheless even blue collar workers were able to cope and buy a house because, relatively speaking, wages were better than they are now and there weren’t as many ‘necessities’ as now.
      At ticket to an ABs test was affordable to all.
      Now life is tough for someone who is not too bright. I used to earn good money in the school holiday on the waterside or the council doing manual work. Now a lot of low skill, but necessary, work is for minimum wage and any suggestion of an increase is shouted down by the penny pinchers. It’s no wonder some lazy, directionless, unambitious dullards decide that having a couple of kids and playing on the playstation is the life for them.
      
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      July 1, 2017 10:12am
  - Gruffydd
    
    . It’s way past time that CYPS is obliterated and replaced with an organisation that has the best interests of the children in their hearts.
    
    A little late to the discussion story.
    They have already done that.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/83300157/New-Ministry-for-Vulnerable-Children-boss-to-lead-culture-change-Tolley-says
    The focus has changed from family’s to the needs of the child .
    
    No more making decisions based on cultural safety but instead on children’s safety.
    No more returning kids to dysfunctional whanau.
    
    It will take time to weed out the social workers who are more interested in pushing Maori culture than saving kids from abuse.
    
    23 2
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    July 1, 2017 9:49am
    - Paulus
      
      Where has all the Treaty Settlement money – understood to be in excess of $70 Billion gone.
      To the elite to keep them in the customs to which only a few can aspire.
      It still seems that the rest have continued to deteriorate exponentially over the last 30 years and continues to worsen.
      Continually throwing taxpayers money at them is not the answer, it appears that the more you give the more they expect – I am not sure what the answer is.
      
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      July 1, 2017 1:43pm
      - holysheet
        
        Stop giving them any more might be a good place to start.
        
        5 0
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        July 1, 2017 2:36pm
lastmanstanding

Thinking about the up coming election. So time to evaluate .

So what have I done for the government both central and local.

Paid my taxes and rates Tick

Obeyed their laws and regulations many of them lacking common sense and plain dumb arse Tick

So what have done for me.

Caused Auckland house prices to get out of control by their lack of governance as regards to immigration and land management planning. Tick

Caused me to now take 60 plus minutes to commute or travel a distance that took 20 minutes
20 years ago impacting on my work life balance. Tick.

So why should I vote for muppets who are lack the capacity capability and will to govern for good outcomes and instead produce bad outcomes.

Doesnt make sense.
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July 1, 2017 8:52am
- ross411
  
  Could it be worse? Maybe an increase in minimum wage, resulting in increases in prices like petrol for that 60 minute drive, and you going to the boss to get an increase to pay for that and other rising costs.
  
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  July 1, 2017 9:49am
- Southern Raider
  
  Because the alternative is even worse
  
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  July 1, 2017 10:03am
Inandout

‘Minister, two basic rules of government: Never look into anything you don’t have to. And never set up an enquiry unless you know in advance what its findings will be.’
Sir Humphrey to the Minister.

Don’t you just love the wisdom?
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July 1, 2017 9:19am
Monique Watson

It’s going down my fellow Kiwis. Trump is royally pissed at Xi Jinping. Has lost faith in the Chinese to manage the rogue nation. Anything could happen in the next week and probably will. Luckily I have stocked up on popcorn.
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July 1, 2017 9:21am
- ross411
  
  Pissed? Perhaps, but I doubt it. More like Trump put the Chinese in a position where the onus was on them, and if they failed, they couldn’t get in the way of the US doing something. So China has gone from an ally of NK to an ally of the USA in effect, on this particular issue. According to some, the art of the deal, demonstrated in word and action.
  
  But there’s more than one way to look at these things, and none of us really know for sure. But what we do know is that if you read it on CNN, it’s likely to be very fake. Lol.
  
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  July 1, 2017 9:52am
  - Wayne Mapp
    
    China will not simply acquiesce in whatever the US does. It has its own interests, and one will be to keep the 1953 armistice in place, preferably convert it in a peace treaty.
    Remember the PLA pushed the US Army back from the China North Korea border to the current DMZ in 1951. So they will not tolerate US military action against North Korea.
    I am sure all that has been made clear to the US recently which is why Trump backed off.
    
    12 4
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    July 1, 2017 10:06am
    - G152
      
      Get your history right Wayne.
      The US was only one of many of the combatants against the North Koreans.
      It may have escaped your attention but we were there, the Poms were there, Aussies also
      
      7 2
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      July 1, 2017 10:35am
      - ztev
        
        The US ran the show, even South Koreans were under US military control then.
        Even now, the new South Korea President has stopped the anti- ballistic system the US installed from being fully operational.
        
        3 10
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        July 1, 2017 11:33am
      - MCos
        
        According to some numbers on Wikipedia Sth Korea had 600,000 military, US 300,000+ and the next bigger of a whole plethora of other countries was the UK with 14,000.
        So while it was nominally a UN force for all practical purposes it was the US. Mind you our guys would probably not see it that way.
        
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        July 1, 2017 12:20pm
    - Jack5
      
      With hindsight, was General Macarthur right? He was fired in August 1951 for wanting to nuke the People’s Liberation Army.
      
      China didn’t explode a nuclear bomb until October 1964.
      
      5 1
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      July 1, 2017 1:39pm
      - MCos
        
        He was fired for going against orders.
        
        1 0
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        July 1, 2017 4:44pm
      - Jack5
        
        You are correct, Mcos. The disagreement between MacArthur and Truman was wide, and US Army leaders seem also to have decided it was time for the old soldier to go.
        
        William Manchester in his narrative history of America from 1932 to 1972, The Glory and the Dream, contains material about MacArthur’s nuclear views in the campaign.
        
        He says the Joint Chiefs of Staff told MacArthur after the Chinese Communists entered the war that if the UN troops were forced back to the Kum River, they would order him to begin a withdrawal to Japan.
        
        Manchester says that, replying, MacArthur recommended that a state of war with China be recognised and this be followed up by “dropping 30 to 50 atomic bombs on air bases and other sensitive points in Manchuria, and landing an amphibious force of 500,000 Nationalist Chinese from Formosa, supported by two divisions of US marines, at either end of the Korea-China border.
        
        Manchester says MacArthur added that any further Communist incursions into Korea should be precluded by “laying down, after the defeat of the Chinese [Communists],” of a belt of radioactive cobalt all along the Yalu.
        
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        July 1, 2017 6:07pm
  - Inandout
    
    Kim the younger is getting his military generals really pissed off (he has already killed off half what his father had assembled). There are more and more Western videos being smuggled into North Korea and the people are getting unsettled at what they see others enjoying. The most telling change is that those close to him are beginning to ignore Kim’s direct orders, and blind obedience is becoming rare. The poverty is appalling and there is only so far the people can be pushed without rebelling. The clock is ticking for the midget.
    
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    July 1, 2017 10:18am
    - ztev
      
      You are a dreamer. You have no direct experience of anything in Korea. Dictators have been shooting their rivals forever?
      Even in Saudi Arabia the old crown prince is out and a new one is in. They cant shoot him but hes under house arrest, maybe he will ‘slip in his onyx bathtub’
      
      2 13
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      July 1, 2017 11:36am
      - ross411
        
        Huh? What has that to do with what he wrote?
        
        8 0
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        July 1, 2017 12:17pm
- Gruffydd
  
  I would suggest that pushing Korea to far will result in a situation were popcorn will be redundant.
  Iodine and survival rations will be what you need in the USA .
  
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  July 1, 2017 9:57am
  - waikatogirl
    
    A well placed drone strike might stop NK in their tracks, but good old NK probably have a carbon copy odd ball of the Great One to roll out.
    
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    July 1, 2017 10:07am
    - ztev
      
      Drone strike ?
      North Korea has 1000s of long range artillery, a lot in tunnels within range of Soeul.
      Jaw jaw is better than war war, its just that idiot Trump is a slow learner
      
      5 27
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      July 1, 2017 10:14am
      - G152
        
        Wow. Now the net nut is a military strategist.
        Those little points would have been taken into account
        
        17 1
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        July 1, 2017 10:38am
      - Rachael Membery
        
        Seoul, seriously ‘sweetie’, what’s your job description?
        
        14 1
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        July 1, 2017 11:25am
      - ztev
        
        Just smarter sweetie.
        http://thediplomat.com/2017/04/what-would-the-second-korean-war-look-like/
        http://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2017/04/26/could_north_korea_annihilate_seoul_with_its_artillery_111248.html
        
        Ask them in Ukraine how the use of russian style heavy artillery is going ?
        
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        July 1, 2017 11:44am
    - UrbanNeocolonialist
      
      Probably the cheapest and safest option to end the despotism in NK would be to distribute a few $million to every person in a leadership in NK, offer them resettlement in the south and amnesty from prosecution.
      
      2 0
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      July 1, 2017 4:00pm
MCos

Jarrod Kimber writing about Kane Williamson on Cricinfo
“When he was born, the waters broke, his mother screamed, but he came out smiling, shook hands with the doctor, cut his own cord, went off to find milk and a bouquet of flowers for his mum.”
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/1107557.html
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July 1, 2017 9:22am
Jack5

NZ’s immigration muddle is shown by an American family’s rejection for settlement.

Still, the bleeding hearts want to bring in more Muslim refugees (after sifting out the Christians) from the Middle East and Burma.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/94280001/lower-hutt-family-gobsmacked-over-residency-rejection
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July 1, 2017 9:30am
- Southern Raider
  
  A guy at work told me this week in his sons social studies class they had to write an essay on the benefits of increasing refugee numbers incrementally or taking in the same increased number in one big go
  
  What the fuck are they teaching at school
  
  There didn’t seem to be an option of benefits of not taking in any more at all
  
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  July 1, 2017 10:07am
  - Captain Mainwaring
    
    Love your punctuation SR, but where is it?
    
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    July 1, 2017 10:19am
  - ross411
    
    Remember when we see those tv reports of the government department making choices teachers disagree with
    
    The kids are lined up and crying and holding signs about something they dont understand That is a form of child abuse Its not comparable to other forms but it still is a form of its own
    
    No punctuation for Captain Mainwaring cause he loves it like that
    
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    July 1, 2017 12:22pm
- Kimbo
  
  @ Jack5
  
  Sorry, I don’t understand your objection. New Zealand has plenty of cafes so it is not like they are providing a new and essential service that can’t already be derived from local expertise.
  
  Indeed, if their business-plan didn’t stack up, then NZIS is doing a good job of protecting us from additional welfare costs if and when their enterprise falls over.
  
  Also, it is fair enough that a measure of suspicion and verification is applied over the “we are employing Kiwis” test.
  
  Or is it only because they are white Americans, and not, say, Indians operating an education service or a curry house that means the “approved” rubber stamp should have been applied immediately?
  
  Or are you still confused that different criteria apply to ordinary migrants…and refugees? Or maybe you are…in which case perhaps you should be more explicit and say “we should not take Muslim refugees” without a specious apples-and-oranges comparison with some shilled hard luck story from a bunch of Americans….who are so useless they can’t put together a coherent business plan.
  
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  July 1, 2017 12:16pm
  - Jack5
    
    I bow to your view, Kimbo.
    
    Of course we should keep cafe and restaurant jobs for Indians on student visas.
    
    Oh, I’ve just realised you say the Americans are white. I hadn’t noticed. Of course, then, they must go.
    
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    July 1, 2017 1:44pm
    - Kimbo
      
      Of course we should keep cafe and restaurant jobs for Indians on student visas?
      
      “Of course?” You are slipping Jack5 – you are usually more accurate – but as per above, I know not to question your knowledge of tax or defamation law. But there’s a good chap – kindly don’t misrepresent, by statement or implication what I said or meant.
      
      So if your point was that we should not accept Muslim refugees, how does that relate to an alleged muddled decline of American economic migrants applying for citizenship?
      
      Oh, I’ve just realised you say the Americans are white. I hadn’t noticed.
      
      Yeah, nah. I seldom question the honesty or integrity of another unless I have clear reason, but in this case I’m sorely tempted to call “bullshit”. How about if they were…black Muslims? Or didn’t you check?
      
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      July 1, 2017 1:59pm
- ross411
  
  I find it hard to work out what the article is really saying. Is it just a messy report of a family whose residency was rejected? Or is it some kind of criticism?
  
  Where has the journalism gone?
  
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  July 1, 2017 12:19pm
  - Kimbo
    
    As I said to Jack5, it is a stock-standard shilled “hard luck” immigration story you could do for anyone whose citizenship application is declined, likely suggested in this case by their lawyer and/or immigration consultant, to pressure the Minister to override the Immigration Department’s recommendation, and accept their application
    
    …because all other avenues have been exhausted. So it tugs at the heart strings of the likes of Jack5, who then draws a long bow, and connects it to his dissatisfaction about the perceived Muslim horde about to invade us, staring in Dunedin.
    
    So from a journalistic perspective, not much work required (just edit and regurgitate the one-sided story you have been told, with zero analysis), get readership, and thus reward your advertisers
    
    …especially when the likes of Jack5 posts the link in a place like this.
    
    But to give credit where it is due, and while Jack5 may have proved an unwitting dupe (I suspect not, as he draws that long bow on every possible occasion).at least he is an expert on the fine balance between parliamentary privilege and defamation law. On applying it so that legal risks and freedom of speech are maintained and properly balanced in respect of specific risks in the Todd Barclay case? Not so much IMHO.
    
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    July 1, 2017 12:30pm
wiseowl

This mornings story about the Americans that have been here for four years and set up a cafe only to be told they have to fold tent and leave, is typical of what is wrong with our immigration system and makes one wonder who makes these decisions.
Seems OK to let thousands of chefs in to cook chinese or asian meals but a good ol cafe with Americans well no.
If you are white and from another western country with similar values to us you are given the boot.
Mass immigrants from alien cultures………fine.
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July 1, 2017 9:36am
- holysheet
  
  “He has made a personal appeal to Associate Immigration Minister Scott Simpson to look at the Jensen’s case.
  A spokesperson for Simpson said a request for ministerial intervention had been received.”
  
  Can you imagine the stink from liabore and MSM if the minister had intervened?
  The minister is out of his depth and should be replaced by someone more competent. Maybe Judith could step up. She is very under utilised by Bill at the moment.
  
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  July 1, 2017 9:44am
  - waikatogirl
    
    Judith is on ice, cooling her jets, keeping quiet and biding her time… ?
    
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    July 1, 2017 9:50am
    - ztev
      
      Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
      She still goes ‘via the airport’ though.
      Shes only tolerated because she controls a big chunk of donor money she can switch on and off at will.
      Her fave young MP is leaving after creating the biggest scandal since her other crony, Williamson had his own scandal.
      
      Collins of course misled the PM about the true purpose of her China trip ( the real purpose wasnt to speak to a conference about corruption…hahahaha)
      back to the Farmers shoe dept for La diva
      
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      July 1, 2017 10:19am
      - waikatogirl
        
        Pot / kettle and those in glass houses comes to mind ztev!
        
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        July 1, 2017 11:06am
      - GazzaW
        
        You’re A1 at tossing the negative shit around ztev but it never seems to stick despite the best efforts of your mates in the media. Ponytails, JC’s airport visits, the Williamson ‘scandal’, the teapot outrage – all for naught. Ask the average joe in the street and he wouldn’t have a clue what you were talking about. You’re a ‘scandal tragic’, mate – a negative, bitter troll. You really need to go out and get yourself a life.
        
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        July 1, 2017 6:30pm
    - Inandout
      
      Correct. Leader in waiting.
      
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      July 1, 2017 10:21am
- Southern Raider
  
  If they were black Americans or Muslim Americans do we think it would have been a different outcome?
  
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  July 1, 2017 10:07am
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  Is it true that the Immigration Dept. is stuffed full of immigrants from non-Western countries?
  If it is, this is probably the explanation.
  
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  July 1, 2017 10:22am
- Odakyu-sen
  
  They should have burned their passports and applied for refugee status.
  
  //
  
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  July 1, 2017 10:30am
All_on_Red

Remy- People will die!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eXWhbUUE4ko
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July 1, 2017 9:42am
- VicParking
  
  Cool
  
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  July 1, 2017 3:05pm
Monique Watson

Fucking sick of the bleeding-heart stories on the Horrid. Jeezus. Nothing relevant or pertinent to whats going on in the world.
I’m just fucking waiting for a “Day in the Life of Bert the Chicken”, story.
Facepalm!
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July 1, 2017 9:45am
- ross411
  
  I like the ones which start with something like:
  
  Woman has no money for her retirement.
  Woman had pension, but cashed it in to pay off house.
  Woman had house, but sold it to pay for debts.
  Woman thinks that women in general shouldn’t be allowed to get into this situation. And something indicating society owes her.
  Rest of article on saving for retirement.
  
  So, how should women not be allowed to get into that situation? Should they be kept by a man? Should they be given a special “women can’t manage one’s own finances special allowance” as their years go on?
  
  What is the journalist’s point? Are they even capable of making one any more? Do they just write any old nonsense?
  
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  July 1, 2017 9:59am
- Inandout
  
  Don’t torture yourself, simply don’t buy it.
  
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  July 1, 2017 10:22am
- GazzaW
  
  There was a story this morning with a massive headline about a bloke who had seen his veteran yacht sink 15 minutes after launching it. He’d spent years doing it up. “Poor bastard” I thought “I wonder whereabouts he’s from – Auckland, Gisborne, Wellington?”
  
  Turns out it all happened in Scotland. Just a clickbait headline and a total reprint from one of the Heralds shite associated papers in the UK.
  
  Lazy journalism
  
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  July 1, 2017 6:39pm
Southern Raider

Watching the 6pm news for the first time in months and they spent about 5 minutes dedicated to getting the “missing million” out to vote. Clearly a left driven agenda with
– chief electoral officer talking about predicted increase in youth vote this election due to what has happened in other countries where youth didn’t vote
– cuts to videos of Trump winning and Brexit as if to tell youth if you don’t get in fascists will run NZ
– an interview with some social justice looking young woman who has supposedly developed a website to help you select who to vote for based on our beliefs/values

Who wants to bet if you go to one of those decision websites no matter what you select about your beliefs and values it suggests your perfect match is Greens
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July 1, 2017 9:53am
- Peter
  
  I wouldn’t worry.
  
  The few remaining 6pm news viewers are likely befuddled NZF supporters who think the internet has something to do with fishing.
  
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  July 1, 2017 9:56am
- MCos
  
  “Watching the 6pm news for the first time in months”
  You’re hooked now, mate!
  There’s only one thing for it. Twenty four hours straight Hannity reruns to get you back on course.
  
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  July 1, 2017 10:38am
wiseowl

Did I hear about legislation kicking in this month that allows IRD to get details/access to everyones bank accounts?
It is bad enough now with so much information on a statement.
Don’t ever allow a cashless society .Freedom will be totally eroded.
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July 1, 2017 9:53am
- ross411
  
  Cryptocurrency, if it isn’t hobbled by the EU or other governments, are the future. Unfortunately, most of them suffer from lack of popularity, and those that don’t are so popular that banks and corporations are trying to co-opt them, and fees have risen to upwards of 5 dollars per transaction.
  
  There’s interesting events on the horizon for bitcoin, which is the premier cryptocoin, which will finally cause some movement. I’d go into detail, but not sure anyone is interested.
  
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  July 1, 2017 10:02am
- freemark
  
  IRD has access to Bank Accounts. They cleaned mine out once. I have to admit that they warned me however, but sometimes those white envelopes just didn’t get opened.
  On balance over the years they’ve been pretty fair.
  
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  July 1, 2017 10:12am
- Jack5
  
  Ethers, the current hot crypto currency, are booming.
  
  Desktop computers were declining to be just office tools and young gamers’ machines, but miners of this crypto currency are causing a resurgence.
  
  Wherever electricity is cheapest, and that seems to be China, miners are packing computers into rooms, and packing graphics cards into computers. Apparently you don’t need a powerful PC main processor, or CPU. The graphics cards do much of the work (and hog the power). So miners are packing as many as six graphics cards in a machine (they must have multiple PC power supplies as well, I guess.)
  
  The price of powerful graphics cards has surged as ether miners snap them up.
  
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  July 1, 2017 10:20am
  - ztev
    
    You dont need a ‘desk top computer’ do do all that, its called blade computing, just a stripped down motherboard with the required processors in racks of hundreds
    
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    July 1, 2017 11:53am
    - Jack5
      
      😎
      
      Ztev, yes I guess “PC” is a bit loose, but here’s a link to someone explaining how they built a PC-scale ether mining rig with six graphics cards. Let’s say, for the sake of us lay folk, it looks a little like a PC:
      
      https://blog.simpleblend.net/building-an-ethereum-mining-rig/
      
      And here, for PC lovers is an indication of the effect ether mining has had on graphics card prices:
      
      http://www.tomshardware.com/news/gpu-prices-increase-ethereum-cryptocurrency,34865.html
      
      And for those interested, a background on the Ether currency:
      
      http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ethereum-cryptocurrency-beginners-guide,34820.html
      
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      July 1, 2017 12:55pm
Southern Raider

A special one was jailed yesterday for viciously assaulting a 73 year old pensioner in Dunedin

Why did she attack him? He suggested she picked up her dogs shit in a public park
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July 1, 2017 10:02am
Southern Raider

I see the Herald is continuing its fine high standards of journalism

They are now claiming SBW is the greatest NZ sportsman ever
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July 1, 2017 10:09am
- ross411
  
  I have no idea what an SBW is.
  
  The name Matthew Lilliard comes to mind, when I think of New Zealand sport. I vote for him, whoever he is, as the greatest NZ sportsman in my opinion. I should write for the Herald, I’ve clearly got the chops.
  
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  July 1, 2017 10:14am
  - Longknives
    
    That ‘Sonny Bill is our Greatest Ever Sportsman’ article must have been written by a 12 year-old for a School Project!
    Our ‘Greatest Ever’ because he played both League and Rugby for New Zealand? Jesus there have been truckloads of them…
    And as for the gushing about what a ‘Role Model’ Sonny is- Wasn’t it only earlier this year he lost Sponsors because of his support for Radical Muslim Clerics?
    
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    July 1, 2017 1:34pm
    - Kimbo
      
      Our ‘Greatest Ever’ because he played both League and Rugby for New Zealand? Jesus there have been truckloads of them…
      
      …and was a NZ boxing champion.
      
      Leave aside your dislike for the media-puff surrounding SBW (and good luck to him – is part of how sports people have made money since pro sport was invented going back to the ~~mid 19th Century~~ time of the gladiators – and Michael Jones promoting his religion did get a bit nauseating at times to this Christian, anyway)
      
      ..and if you define “greatest” as “most diverse, then yes, there is a case to be made. But they seem to have overlooked George Smith:
      
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_William_Smith_(sportsman)
      
      1905 All Black
      1907 Rugby League All Gold (and a key instigator of that tour)
      15x athletic spring and hurdling champion
      …and 1894 NZ Cup winning jockey
      
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      July 1, 2017 1:43pm
      - Kimbo
        
        15x athletic ~~spring~~ sprinting and hurdling champion
        
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        July 1, 2017 1:50pm
      - Jack5
        
        C’mon Kimbo, don’t praise Sunni Bill’s boxing prowess.
        
        Bob Jones had his measure in that sport – an “idiot adrift on a float of publicity.”
        
        http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/8287014/Jones-SBW-fight-seedy-nasty-and-bogus
        
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        July 1, 2017 1:55pm
      - Kimbo
        
        I’m surprised, Jack5, given your affinity with legal exactitude that you didn’t read my words correctly. I didn’t praise his boxing prowess. I mentioned his title.
        
        And doesn’t Bob Jones say ever NZ boxer, including David Tua and Joseph Parker are vastly over-rated? Fair enough, his call and he has forgotten more about boxing than I’ll ever know. But nonetheless, they and SBW have all won titles. Is like saying the 1905 All Blacks achievements don’t count because, as British rugby was of a lesser strength due to the rugby league split in England a decade before. A sports person can only compete against those who are available.
        
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        July 1, 2017 2:31pm
    - VicParking
      
      If I had taken my pants off and given them to a child I would be in prison now.
      
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      July 1, 2017 3:09pm
- Inandout
  
  Sonny Bill Muslim is such a wonderful moderate man.
  
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  July 1, 2017 10:24am
  - holysheet
    
    it’s all to do with inclusivism, didn’t you know.
    
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    July 1, 2017 10:35am
  - G152
    
    I thought he was Sunni Bill
    
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    July 1, 2017 10:42am
    - Steve (North Shore)
      
      Sonny Dollar Bill – fixed that
      
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      July 1, 2017 4:20pm
Monique Watson

@Ross411. Personally have always lived by the creed that a man is not an automatic paycheck. And that enabling shite that the Herald makes a big deal out of is not good. But then, I was out earning at the age of fifteen. Made my share of mistakes and have dealt with some interesting customers. I don’t take shit lying down or expect free shit from anyone.
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July 1, 2017 10:29am
Hugh Pavletich

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
Housing is actually LESS affordable in New Zealand … note graphs top at http://www.PerformanceUrbanPlanning.org …

Now Even The U.N. Is Worried About Housing Affordability In Australia … Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2017/06/29/now-even-the-u-n-is-worried-about-housing-affordability-in-aust_a_23009036/

… extract …

… On housing, the U.N. committee said it was concerned about Australia’s provision of affordable homes. Housing affordability is a key issue in Australia at the moment; it has been demonstrated in survey after survey after survey, in decidedly average cottages selling for nearly $4 million, in unrenovated homes going for far above the reserve, in weatherboards flatly described as “tired” going for more than $1 million. Recent figures show even average families are being priced out of Australia’s cities. … view video and read more via hyperlink above …

Sydney Has The Second Most Unaffordable Housing In The World … Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2017/01/23/sydney-has-the-second-most-unaffordable-housing-in-the-world/

Housing in Australia’s major cities is among the least affordable in the world and the nation has the third most expensive housing market on Earth, a new study has found.

International housing affordability think tank Demographia has released its 13th survey on house prices around the world, taking in prices from the third quarter of 2016, and found Sydney had the second most unaffordable major city housing in the world. Melbourne followed close behind, coming in at number six on the unaffordable list. … read more via hyperlink above …

Mote helpful material on housing issues placed on KB General Debate late yesterday …

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2017/06/general_debate_30_june_2017.html/comment-page-1#comment-1960805
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July 1, 2017 10:30am
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  I’d like to live in London, but housing there is unaffordable so I guess I’ll have to live somewhere else.
  
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  July 1, 2017 11:00am
  - holysheet
    
    Yes capt, it really is that simple.
    But this generation have been bought up not to know the word no. I want it all now, not next year, or next decade.
    
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    July 1, 2017 11:12am
    - ztev
      
      tents are so cheap, but the land to put them on so dear
      the previous generations had the government provide 20% of the housing loan – to make it affordable.
      Just the current government is not in synch with young people- Sad!
      
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      July 1, 2017 11:57am
      - holysheet
        
        Bullshit again ztev. Have you ever written an ounce of truth here at all?
        I never got a bean from the govt in the early 80’s. to buy a house. Interest rates were 23% at one stage.
        
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        July 1, 2017 12:14pm
      - Hugh Pavletich
        
        Ztev … You are spot on.
        
        Why shouldn’t our young people have access to affordable housing as they currently do throughout middle North America … here is Pulte Homes in Phoenix Arizona as an example …
        
        https://pulte.com/homes/arizona/phoenix/florence/parkside-at-anthem-at-merrill-ranch-7739#CommunityDetailsView
        
        … and like we did back in the late 1970’s.
        
        As a young couple then with two small children in 1978 on my SINGLE EARNER annual income of $8,000, we bought our first NEW HOME for $24,000 with a $20,000 mortgage.
        
        Access to the opportunity of affordable housing actually happens to be a basic human right. It is that serious.
        
        The Annual Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey’s (13 to date) provide a useful guide on where to research true market pricing for housing …
        
        http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf
        
        http://www.performanceurbanplanning.org/
        
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        July 1, 2017 12:16pm
      - holysheet
        
        Hugh I thought you were a meat inspector back in the 70’and 80’s.
        If this is the case your salary was a lot higher than $8000. in 1978. When I left as a meat inspector in 1982 I was on $35k. ( I had left in 1973 to go overseas and returned to the same job in 1980)
        
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        July 1, 2017 12:29pm
      - Hugh Pavletich
        
        Holysheet … We moved from a job as a married couple on a farm in 1978 where the pay was about $70 a week at the time or $3,500 a year.
        
        Moving to Christchurch to be a factory worker on about $8,000 a year was a huge lift !
        
        My brief bio is at the tail end of each years Dem Survey.
        
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        July 1, 2017 12:48pm
      - Southern Raider
        
        Hugh have you been to Phoenix?
        
        It’s dead flat in the middle of a desert
        
        Have you been to Auckland?
        
        It’s rolling hills on a tiny isthmus between water
        
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        July 1, 2017 1:31pm
      - Hugh Pavletich
        
        WHAT ARE THE PRICING AND RENTAL TRENDS OF GREATER CHRISTCHURCH … AND WHY ?
        
        Southern Raider … the historical evidence is crystal clear in that housing at 3.0 times and less annual household income was the norm throughout the Anglosphere.
        
        All we are talking about here is restoring it … not inventing it … led of course by Greater Christchurch … thanks in large measure to the local government geniuses at Waimakariri and Selwyn.
        
        Check out the consent rates per 1000 population per annum for May covered within my post on yesterdays General Debate …
        
        http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2017/06/general_debate_30_june_2017.html/comment-page-1#comment-1960805
        
        Check out the pricing and rental trends of the Greater Christchurch Area … for a real-life lesson in restoring affordability.
        
        Go to Page 26 Fig 10 of this years Demographia Survey for the ‘responsiveness graph’ of Christchurch on the one hand and Selwyn / Waimak on the other …
        
        http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf
        
        Check out the early part of my article mid last year RESTORING HOUSING AFFORDABILITY: AN ADVOCATES TALE … specifically the Donald Ellis Consents Rate Per 1000 Population Per Annum Graph …
        
        http://www.performanceurbanplanning.org/definition-of-affordable-housing.html
        
        http://www.performanceurbanplanning.org/
        
        Southern Raider … welcome to the real world.
        
        Perform or perish. Your choice.
        
        The bubble days are over.
        
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        July 1, 2017 4:16pm
  - Steve (North Shore)
    
    Unaffordable is plain bullshit. Work is the secret.
    How many entitled snowflakes are putting in 80+ hours a week? Sweet fuck all. I want it I want it, but not prepared to do the hard yards. HTFU
    
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    July 1, 2017 4:25pm
- Odakyu-sen
  
  Hugh,
  
  This figure of “3.5-times annual household income indicates affordable housing” that you mention. I have a question about it. What would be the typical mortgage interest rate for this to apply?
  
  Imagine two scenarios. Firstly, a mortgage rate of 10%. Let’s say one can buy a house for 4x annual household income.
  Now, imagine a second scenario where the mortgage rate is 5%. Would a house price of 8x annual household income be equally affordable as in the first scenario?
  
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  July 1, 2017 11:10am
  - Odakyu-sen
    
    I did the math, and the mortgage interest rate would have have to come down to about 1% for the monthly repayments of the 8x annual household income house to be the same as the 4x annual household income (at 10% mortgage rate).
    
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    July 1, 2017 11:22am
    - Hugh Pavletich
      
      Odakyu-sen …
      
      Check out what I wrote for the SMH and The Age back early 2011 …
      
      Report: housing affordability out of sync with incomes
      
      https://www.domain.com.au/news/report-housing-affordability-out-of-sync-with-incomes-20110202-1ad3m/
      
      There is a world of difference between structural housing affordability and mortgage affordability.
      
      Note on my archival website http://www.PerformanceUrbanPlanning.org a simple structural DEFINITION OF AN AFFORDABLE HOUSING MARKET.
      
      Please note we are dealing today with RESTORING housing affordability … not INVENTING it …
      
      Housing through the decades, what is affordable? | Newshub
      
      http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2016/08/housing-through-the-decades-what-is-affordable.html
      
      The NZ homeowners who hate high house prices are revealed in Labour polling | Stuff.co.nz
      
      http://i.stuff.co.nz/business/money/90244287/The-NZ-homeowners-who-hate-high-house-prices-are-revealed-in-Labour-polling
      
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      July 1, 2017 11:45am
  - Odakyu-sen
    
    Here are some more calculations (25-year term)
    Ref: https://tools.anz.co.nz/home-loans/repayments-calculator/
    
    In each of the following four scenarios, the monthly mortgage payments over the 25-year term are about the same.
    
    Scenario one (the “bad old days”)
    Loan amount: $200,000
    Interest rate: 22%
    Monthly repayments: $3,682
    
    Scenario two (early turn of the century)
    Loan amount: $350,000
    Interest rate: 12%
    Monthly repayments: $3,686
    
    Scenario three (recent)
    Loan amount: $650,000
    Interest rate: 4.5%
    Monthly repayments: $3,613
    
    Scenario four (next year)
    Loan amount: $950,000
    Interest rate: 1.2%
    Monthly repayments: $3,667
    
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    July 1, 2017 12:35pm
    - Hugh Pavletich
      
      OD … Please read what I have written on the issue of structural affordability.
      
      Thank you.
      
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      July 1, 2017 12:57pm
      - Odakyu-sen
        
        I did, but it didn’t answer my questions, so I did my own calculations.
        
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        July 1, 2017 1:32pm
    - Odakyu-sen
      
      In each case, you are paying approx. $3,660 a month, or $43,920 a year for 25 years. That totals up to $43,920 x 25 = $1,098,000.
      
      To earn that $43,920 at an income tax rate of 30 cents in the dollar would require a pretax income of around $63,000.
      The government must benefit greatly from all the income tax creamed from the earnings of people striving to pay off their mortgage.
      
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      July 1, 2017 5:14pm
      - holysheet
        
        like your working out Oda.
        You are wasting your time expecting Hugh to give an answer without the constant cut and paste. He cannot find an answer to c&p so is ignoring your very valid questions.
        
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        July 1, 2017 6:55pm
      - Hugh Pavletich
        
        Oda … Interesting thoughts on mortgage affordability !
        
        Different subject to housing affordability though
        
        Do you motherfuckers know the difference between a house and a mortgage ?
        
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        July 2, 2017 10:20pm
- Hugh Pavletich
  
  WELLING COUNCIL HOUSING BLATHER … What planet are thy on ? …
  
  Editorial: Hard work on housing in Wellington starts now | Stuff.co.nz
  
  https://i.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/editorials/94261164/editorial-hard-work-on-housing-in-wellington-starts-now
  
  ‘We’ve got to act now’: Mayor hails Wellington housing plan | Radio New Zealand News
  
  http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/334081/we-ve-got-to-act-now-mayor-hails-wellington-housing-plan
  
  … extract …
  
  … Housing analyst Hugh Pavletich said the capital needed to focus on freeing up land on urban fringes and better funding of infrastructure for new developments. …
  .
  .
  Do check out Wellingtons unbelievably appalling ‘consent rates per 1000 population’ for May … at my KB General Debate post late yesterday …
  
  http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2017/06/general_debate_30_june_2017.html/comment-page-1#comment-1960805
  
  The local government people at the dysfunctional Wellington Council really need to be sent down to the Selwyn Council to learn how to do things properly.
  
  They should take Nick Smith too.
  
  On a population basis Selwyn issued A WHOPPING 7.5 times the number of residential building consents Wellington did in May.
  
  I suspect on this basis, Wellington was the worst in the country !
  
  Why are the Wellington Council people not being held to account ?
  
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  July 1, 2017 11:27am
  - Happychappy
    
    Didn’t the Mayor of Wellington come and seek your advice Hugh, you must be pissed it being a Labour Mayor and you being Labour’s main man on housing advice.
    
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    July 1, 2017 12:23pm
    - Hugh Pavletich
      
      Happychappy … Wrong … I am one of the pure ones on the centre-right !
      
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      July 1, 2017 12:54pm
- ross411
  
  What’s the short and readable summary of this Hugh? If you posted that instead of pasting this, I might actually read it.
  
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  July 1, 2017 12:10pm
- VicParking
  
  Left school on the dole
  Got knocked up on DPB
  Meet a man
  Back on the dole
  Beat up
  Back on the DPB
  Child 5
  Got knocked up back on DPB
  Man moved in
  Back on Dole
  Got beat up………. And so it goes on.
  
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  July 1, 2017 3:14pm
DifferentPerspective

More faking the news from CNN

Project Veritas got leaked the full video of a CNN focus group – just watch what CNN didn’t include.

Surprise surprise, the bit where the person CNN invited in explained how he’d seen illegal voters bussed in. The CNN host talks over the dude to try to shut him down because it doesn’t fit their role as the Clinton News Network.

No wonder trust in the TV news media is so low!
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July 1, 2017 10:33am
- Fletch
  
  What’s more, his explanation was edited out of what was finally shown on TV. Katie Couric also got sued for deceptive editing when interviewing a pro Second Amendment group. In what was shown on TV, she asks the group a question and it is edited to make it look like they are all silent and don’t have any answer. In reality, they did give a clear answer (luckily one of the group was savvy enough to record audio of the whole interview).
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK0cDcC68Zo
  
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  July 1, 2017 12:16pm
Monique Watson

And furthermore. Xi Jinping (who is a very clever customer) is trying to kiss the Japanese asses to block Trump. To get some political capital in the bank. But Xi is fubard, and and he knows it, As per the Taiwan deal. The only way the situation can be diffused if is USA and Japan take it to NK. And this will happen shortly unless NK is neutralised.
I don’t watch CNN. I just talk to people. And trust no-one.
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July 1, 2017 10:39am
DifferentPerspective

EU court rules child must be killed

What the fuck! If you ever needed an example of why Britain was right to cut the ties to the insanity of the European Union – here it is!

The European Court of Human Rights has ruled that a terminally sick child cannot go to the US to receive potentially life-saving treatment – even though the parents had raised the money for the experimental treatment.

Sure the chances are very low – but if the parents want to try to save their child and have raised the money – what role has a court in mandating death for a baby?
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July 1, 2017 10:52am
- SGA
  
  What the fuck! If you ever needed an example of why Britain was right to cut the ties to the insanity of the European Union – here it is!
  
  That’s a bizarre misrepresentation – the parents took it to the EU court after losing a battle in the UK’s Supreme Court. The EU court agreed with the UK’s Supreme Court.
  
  The European Court of Human Rights has ruled that a terminally sick child cannot go to the US to receive potentially life-saving treatment – even though the parents had raised the money for the experimental treatment.
  
  Without arguing the rights and wrongs of it explicitly, the issue seems a bit more complicated than that (from my reading beyond your links). The hospital wanted to take the child off life support (ventilator) because at this point they believe that it is only prolonging the child’s suffering, and that the experimental treatment is extremely unlikely to be beneficial (and it isn’t a curative treatment – the baby isn’t going to be “saved”).
  
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  July 1, 2017 12:46pm
- Gabby
  
  That’s a hidden Brightfart link.
  
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  July 1, 2017 1:19pm
Odakyu-sen

The Herald reports that Foostuffs is launching a new supermarket chain in Auckland that will specialize in “fresh” produce.

I would rather they open a chain that sells the cheap staple products that are so much less expensive overseas than in NZ.
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July 1, 2017 10:56am
- holysheet
  
  There you are Odakyu, the perfect opening for you to get into the market. If you are quick enough, you might corner the market and become a filthy capitalist, rich prick.
  
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  July 1, 2017 11:16am
  - Odakyu-sen
    
    I am too busy working on my work-life balance to be able to spare the time to make more money.
    
    8 0
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    July 1, 2017 12:20pm
    - Steve (North Shore)
      
      I just stole that comment. Sue me!
      
      1 0
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      July 1, 2017 5:01pm
- MCos
  
  Not going to happen.
  Why should they sell their stuff at two thirds the price of everyone else out of the goodness of their heart?
  Capitalism doesn’t work that way.
  The buggers would double their prices if they could – and send all the profits off to Oz, no doubt.
  
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  July 1, 2017 11:21am
  - starboard
    
    Why would they send their profits off to Australia?
    Foodstuffs in a NZ owned company.
    
    15 0
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    July 1, 2017 11:34am
    - MCos
      
      My apologies
      
      7 0
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      July 1, 2017 12:05pm
- big bruv
  
  We have a place like that, it is called Pack n save and it should be avoided at all costs.
  
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  July 1, 2017 11:24am
  - ztev
    
    Not posh enough for you , too many immigrants and single mums ?
    Oh the indignity of it all.
    
    2 26
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    July 1, 2017 12:00pm
- Tauhei Notts
  
  My missus knows nothing about price earnings ratios and even less about the intricacies of the dividend imputation system. But when Veritas shares were selling at 48 cents and their flagship was the Nosh group, she knew enough to exclaim;
  “this outfit is going broke!”
  I mentioned her comment to my broker, at the time, who explained that her comment was at odds with the recent Veritas company presentation that he had attended.
  Nosh is now knackered and those 48 cent shares are now 19 cents.
  Gentlemen, never under estimate the business perspicacity of her indoors.
  
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  July 1, 2017 11:29am
  - Odakyu-sen
    
    Nosh Glen Innes has closed up shop. The new Farrow in Orakei is doing a roaring trade.
    No need for the gentle folk of Remuera to venture as far afield as Glen Innes any more…
    
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    July 1, 2017 12:18pm
    - Inandout
      
      Never mind, Marsic Brothers fish and chips is still there.
      
      0 0
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      July 1, 2017 5:21pm
  - Steve (North Shore)
    
    ‘Her indoors’ You mean ‘the speaker of the house?’
    
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    July 1, 2017 5:04pm
- DifferentPerspective
  
  Sadly yes – we’re experiencing the globalisation dividend of lack of competition. The fresh produce in many supermarkets is appalling as well as extortionately priced these days. I went to my local New World the other day and I struggle with the rightness of selling a tired, wilted fancy lettuce for $4. I’m sure the growers only got about 20c each for them but to charge $4 for sub-standard seemed unconscionable.
  
  And HS – I think it’s a bit naive to suggest Odakyu sets up a supermarket as competition, the massive buying power of the big chains seems pretty effective at discouraging suppliers from delivering their goodies anywhere else other than to the big two.
  
  It seems long overdue for Parliament to have a look at the utterly ineffective Commerce Commission and the toothless Commerce Act which seems to have the CC spending endless time on navel gazing while ignoring the monopolies that plague competitiveness in NZ. Every time we see a new entrant in a market there is massive predatory pricing by the big boys until the new entrants have been seen off and crickets from the ComCom!
  
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  July 1, 2017 1:41pm
  - calendar girl
    
    It was the Commerce Commission that authorised the Foodtown / Countdown merger with Woolworths a few years ago. Effectively, that decision left New Zealand with only two competing chains:
    – Progressive Enterprises (Countdown, SupaValue, FreshChoice); and
    – Foodstuffs (Pak ‘n Save, New World, 4 Square, Liquorland).
    
    The likelihood of entry by a third party chain into the grocery NZ market is now remote, and shoppers here will continue to pay the price of having a duopoly.
    
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    July 1, 2017 2:55pm
    - VicParking
      
      Liebours policy is to Nationalise the supermarkets, workers on average wage..yippee
      Plan they got from Venezuela
      
      7 2
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      July 1, 2017 3:18pm
      - RalphT
        
        Excellent idea! It can’t fail to be as roaring auccess as it was in Venezuela. If ever I needed an excuse to vote for the little man, this is it…
        
        3 0
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        July 1, 2017 4:11pm
    - Inandout
      
      Warehouse tried a couple of food supermarkets but just couldn’t compete. Aldi might.
      
      2 0
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      July 1, 2017 5:26pm
srylands

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11883745

“Former PM Helen Clark: ‘No question’ the Government should have to fund America’s Cup”.

Oh okay. It is actually illegitimate to question whether the Government should fund the Cup defence.
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July 1, 2017 11:45am
- ztev
  
  When the next defence comes around it will be 21 years since the first
  Time for the fledgling to leave the nest- by the boot if necessary
  
  Its been 15 years since they were here but the technology centres have done fine without the sailing on the doorstep.
  
  Sardinia would be good, good weather and lots of rich pricks to watch it and pay for it.
  
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  July 1, 2017 12:03pm
  - UrbanNeocolonialist
    
    Hi tech marine industry in NZ is in dire straights, Cooksons closed, Southern spars severely downsized, Core composites uncertain (with major customer Oracle future uncertain)… Am cup coming to NZ might revitalise it, but as yet an unknown.
    
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    July 1, 2017 4:14pm
- ross411
  
  Why should she waste time stating the obvious. She’s got a slew of hobbies to better put her time to, like signing paintings she didn’t paint.
  
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  July 1, 2017 12:14pm
  - itstricky
    
    Need someone to hang those paintings?
    
    http://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/john-keys-nail-fail-goes-viral-2015031015
    
    My comment is equally vacuous as yours.
    
    4 8
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    July 1, 2017 1:00pm
    - Kimbo
      
      My comment is equally vacuous as yours
      
      But more amusing, as the painting-nail thing needed some thought, and a capacity to integrate otherwise disparate events, in comparison to barking “Paintergate” like Pavlov’s dogs at the mention of “Helen Clark”.
      
      And justified use of that adverb “equally”, btw 😉
      
      7 6
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      July 1, 2017 1:11pm
      - itstricky
        
        barking “Paintergate” like Pavlov’s dogs
        
        Why, thanks. Was my point. Sometimes I just don’t see the point. Each to their own, I suppose, but even Gabby has nailed a framed “point” of sorts, without a weightless chip at someone.
        
        And – before I’m called a (quote)raving pinko wet commie liberal bedwetter(unquote) troll, I disagree with ztev.
        
        (checking for adverbs…)
        
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        July 1, 2017 1:39pm
      - Kimbo
        
        @ itstricky
        
        Yep – I’ll say it again, this place is fast becoming the mirror image of The Standard every day, at least thankfully minus the heavy censorship of the administrator.
        
        I quoted Jim Bolger yesterday, and got the necessary downticks to have the post disappear. Wasn’t even agreeing with him in total, nor even necessarily most of it – just injecting his comment to provoke some discussion and reconsideration of industrial relations policy and the neo-lib reforms of 1984-91, some of which occurred on his watch. Don’t mind it personally, but just crazy the number of narrow minded hard-right/conservative zealots who hang out here now. Little scope for debate, let alone a healthy challenging of assumptions.
        
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        July 1, 2017 2:40pm
      - Kimbo
        
        @ itstricky
        
        …and about the only humour on display is a carping nasty schadenfreude applied within strict ideological/tribal boundaries. Yeah, sure, sometimes that is earned and appropriate. But not when one lacks a capacity to lighten up and laugh at the ones own foibles and inconsistencies.
        
        People make a place like this, and lately a few too many have been dishonest hypocritical cowards and shills, unwilling to subject their self-deceit to scrutiny.
        
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        July 1, 2017 2:48pm
- stigie
  
  The best thing the government should do is fund the America’s Cup and fund it well. The benefits are huge for NZ in terms of tourism, jobs etc, with the money they put in, NZ benefits 10 fold. Great investment for the people of NZ but unfortunately there is some sad lefties in our society that think that should be spent on the not so well off..?
  I say fuck them !~
  
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  July 1, 2017 12:17pm
  - KevOB
    
    How many of the contenders boats in the last 2 Amercia’s cup series have NOT been made in NZ or designed in NZ or crewed principally by NZedders?
    
    We are doing extraordinary well and full government support will be repaid in increased opportunities and financially.
    I understand that the research has paid off globally in all forms of boat and ship design.
    
    Go Emirates Team NZ.
    
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    July 1, 2017 1:11pm
    - Gabby
      
      Maybe they’d be happy to formalise the rate at which they’ll repay the gumming.
      
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      July 1, 2017 2:10pm
    - Rachael Membery
      
      More a thing of the syndicates saying that they might not race, them having all signed up for the Bermuda thingy, it is all to bully us.
      
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      July 1, 2017 7:19pm
  - Gabby
    
    If the benefits are huge the private sector will be clamouring to throw their weght behind it.
    Why do you want the gumming to steal their opportunities?
    How long have you been a raving pinko wet commie liberal bedwetter?
    
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    July 1, 2017 1:24pm
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  When did doing something illegitimate ever stop the she-beast?
  
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  July 1, 2017 12:57pm
  - stigie
    
    Yea, you would have to feel for Peter a bit..?
    
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    July 1, 2017 1:06pm
  - itstricky
    
    the she-beast
    
    GASP!
    
    Keeping Stock! Where are you?
    
    4 7
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    July 1, 2017 1:46pm
  - Gabby
    
    She was once stopped in her tracks by a drunken mad Home Guard bank manager in crusty gruts.
    
    1 5
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    July 1, 2017 2:18pm
- Gabby
  
  Poor wee Trevor’s at a loss with nobody in power to moon over.
  
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  July 1, 2017 2:17pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  But is she saying that ‘her’ government would finance that America’s Cup, Helen seems to be trying to save Labours arse, Where’s Michael, doesn’t he care anymore?
  
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  July 1, 2017 2:50pm
- VicParking
  
  But I want an ‘Americas Cup’ to protect my balls from Winston the Deputy PrimeSlaveMaster in waiting.
  
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  July 1, 2017 3:21pm
- Steve (North Shore)
  
  Watched the vid clip, no mention of Americas Cup other than the drivel under by Claire Trevett – irrelevant rubbish
  
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  July 1, 2017 5:13pm
Awww C-mon

Who or what is a ZTev, Its quiet at work this morning so I thought I would try and work it out…

Google had two options, firstly

Acronym Definition
ZTEV Zero Tailpipe Emission Vehicle

Is our Mate ZTev a green vehicle? Could be perhaps, suits ideology but the problem is this arse has plenty of nastiness emitting from his keyboard so while I have no intention of measuring his tailpipe emissions fair to say the proof is here for all to see anyway

Secondly was this treat

https://www.dateinasia.com/ztev
“Be real with me or leave me alone”

The tagline did grab my attention, I could imagine our Ztev longing for reality, he lives without it normally.

A twitter search on #ZTEV was inconclusive, or perhaps irrelevant would be a better description.

So no real help in understanding our mate Ztev, I will just have to stick with my current thoughts…
One sad, nasty little fucker
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July 1, 2017 12:11pm
- Brigitte
  
  Given his recent ‘sweetie’ comments, there’s an alarming possibility that he has a Paula fetish.
  
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  July 1, 2017 12:38pm
  - RF
    
    Join the dots…. remember dear Judith who suddenly departed several years ago….. looks like a duck, waddles like a duck etc…
    
    11 1
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    July 1, 2017 12:57pm
    - itstricky
      
      Careful now, Keeping Stock will be here any second to warn you about the track this conversation is taking…
      
      5 9
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      July 1, 2017 1:01pm
      - starboard
        
        On day release again I see, Its sticky…
        
        11 2
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        July 1, 2017 1:37pm
      - itstricky
        
        Yeah, bro, that me, bru. Nailed it in one. Been breaking rocks all yesterday downs @ the country club yard.
        
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        July 1, 2017 1:43pm
    - holysheet
      
      Do you mean Judith Tizard? She would have more inside knowledge about Helen and the liabors than peter ever did.
      
      9 0
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      July 1, 2017 2:25pm
      - RF
        
        The Judith I am referring to was a mouthy lady who came here several years ago and from memory admitted to previously using a different name.
        
        She was an authority on everything and had inside info on the political scene – mainly the left – then prior to the last election when it was going belly up for the left, suddenly vanished.
        
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        July 1, 2017 4:59pm
      - GazzaW
        
        ztev in drag?
        
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        July 1, 2017 10:36pm
    - Longknives
      
      Judith was a devout David Bain supporter from memory…
      
      5 0
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      July 1, 2017 6:07pm
  - waikatogirl
    
    Or a Jacinda fetish. ?
    
    5 0
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    July 1, 2017 4:45pm
- itstricky
  
  Who or what is a ZTev
  
  Why, or how, do you care?
  
  EDIT: Hmmm, actually, why do I care why you care? Sure I’ve better things to do with my time.
  
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  July 1, 2017 1:41pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  You’re right, he sounds short 😉 Little has entirely different connotations.
  
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  July 1, 2017 2:53pm
Fletch

Looks like the New York Times is getting a jump on its retractions before any videos coming out busting it.

They’ve been forced to print a retraction regarding the oft-repeated figure of “17 government intelligence agencies” who all agree that Russia somehow tried to “hack the election”. In reality, there were only four agencies who think that.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/06/30/nyt-turns-out-17-intelligence-agencies-was-fake-news/
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July 1, 2017 12:27pm
cha

It’s all fun and games until someone…..

It is a very serious charge. The accusation is the White House used the National Enquirer to threaten and blackmail two journalists. The administration will likely face questions about in their latest press briefing and how they respond will be telling.

http://www.redstate.com/jaycaruso/2017/06/30/joe-scarborough-updated-nbc-executives-real-time-national-enquirer-threat/
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July 1, 2017 1:03pm
- Ross12
  
  The other side of the “he said , she said” story cha
  http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2017/06/30/reports-no-intimidation-scarborough-sought-help-from-wh-to-stop-tabloid-story-about-his-affair-with-brzezinski/
  
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  July 1, 2017 1:14pm
Jack5

This is a step up even from women shagging and marrying lifers in NZ prisons. Refugee toy-boys are the latest fad for bleeding-heart liberal ladies past the first bloom of youth.

Great story about charities and the Calais refugee camp from the Daily Mail (for which Griff is the NZ-based global warming correspondent).

A do-gooder organises a charity to help the Calais gate crashers. An idealistic sort, the woman compares French authorities to Nazis.

She is married, institutes for staff a policy of no-sex with refugees, then falls in love with one and they make out for a year.

The pair fall out, the refugee entrances another female charity worker. She smuggles him to England, where it turns out he has an English wife he married in Tunisia in 2014 before starting out on the refugee trail.

The refugee, spurned by the charity leader, has tried to burn down the charity’s warehouse in Calais, and may have at least temporarily shut down its work there.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4655996/How-charity-boss-fell-bogus-Calais-refugee.html
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July 1, 2017 1:23pm
Fletch

America. Where an illegal alien can sue because he was reported by the police to ICE for, being illegal. But because he lives in San Fransico, a sanctuary city, he sues and wins $190,000.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/06/30/report-san-francisco-to-pay-illegal-alien-190000-because-police-called-ice-in-violation-of-citys-sanctuary-policy/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asz2mDfMYgI

Just getting crazier and crazier.
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July 1, 2017 1:57pm
DifferentPerspective

Unnecessary delay re the A-G investigation?

Over a month know since the A-G stood down.

And as I predicted at the time it’s gone silent on what is basically a tiny investigation. There’s only a few people involved how can it be taking more than a month to have had a few meetings and write up a 10 page report?

And in the meantime the SSC commissioner has sycophantically been heralded by Transtasman as the public servant of the year!

Didn’t SSC oversee the A-G’s appointment? And wasn’t it the SSC that neglected to fully advise all political parties of the A-G elect’s failures in the Harrison case? The bar has to be tragically low if this quality of performance is the best in the public service!

And the A-G is still gardening (presumably) on full pay all this time…….
9 1
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July 1, 2017 2:00pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Big fines for hate speech in Germany

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40444354
7 0
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July 1, 2017 4:21pm
- nasska
  
  Why don’t they come out & call “hate speech” for what they reckon it to be:
  
  ie. Anything uttered or printed by anyone who doesn’t cuddle Muslims!
  
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  July 1, 2017 4:40pm
- Jack5
  
  The European Commission seems to be driving restricting free speech in Europe. This is from the Foreign Policy (or FP Group) web site:
  
  The Framework Decision on Combating Racism and Xenophobia, adopted in 2008, obliges EU states to criminalize hate speech, albeit not in a uniform manner. Lately, the European Commission has signaled that it wants to see the Framework Decision enforced more vigorously.
  
  Full details of the relevant European Community act:
  
  http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv%3Al33178
  
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  July 1, 2017 4:51pm
Longknives

The NYC Hospital Gunman seems to have disappeared from the News…(After being ‘Breaking News’ main story material earlier)
How Odd! One wonders if the story would have been so quickly buried if he was a White Male wearing a Trump Cap?…
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July 1, 2017 6:18pm
SPC

Before the second AB-Lions game there was talk that if the Lions lost there was a risk to future Lions tours.

Now that an AB has been red-carded, the Lions will win a ruined game and Lions tours will have been saved. Just a pity that one of the three games they play here every 12 years has been stuffed to get this result …
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July 1, 2017 8:13pm
RF

Quick pass me my smelling salts. The peace loving Muslim SBW had been given a red card.

I suspect it’s not going to be a walk in the park for the ABs.
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July 1, 2017 8:20pm
dime

Opps!

Would be legendary if we won from here

SBW is gonna cop some shit this week
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July 1, 2017 8:32pm
dad4justice

Don’t panic the AB’s got this game.
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July 1, 2017 8:41pm
- RF
  
  Do not count your chickens…
  
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  July 1, 2017 9:13pm
dad4justice

Well done Lions. So much for my TAB bet, oh well great game.
4 1
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July 1, 2017 9:29pm
big bruv

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
4 3
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July 1, 2017 9:31pm
Colville

That is one way to make the series competitive.
16 plays 14.
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July 1, 2017 9:31pm
big bruv

The Lions captain has more grace in victory than they deeply embarrassing captain of the NZ team has in defeat.
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July 1, 2017 9:32pm
- RF
  
  The ABs captain has not got the X factor.
  
  He should stick to selling houses and the other stuff you see on TV.
  
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  July 1, 2017 9:52pm
  - RF
    
    The man of the match.. Sam Cane… should be ABs captain.
    
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    July 1, 2017 10:23pm
  - Colville
    
    RF.
    Reid was immense last week.
    Pretty hard for a 8 to shine when he has no 6 on the park.
    
    2 1
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    July 1, 2017 10:50pm
Nookin

I hope that flack includes at least one weeks suspension. The shoulder charge was his specialty in league and he still can’t realise that it is frowned upon.
Lions deserved that one. Now we will see what the Orblax are made of.
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July 1, 2017 9:34pm
dad4justice

Sunni boy muslim has become the first All Black to be sent off in a home test.
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July 1, 2017 9:39pm
Colville

The NZ born pom Vunipola took 4 fouls to get sent off. He really must try harder.
7 1
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July 1, 2017 9:41pm
- mandk
  
  The Lions deserved to win, but how Vunipola got away with what he did is mystifying.
  He did what SBW did on at least three occasions, but he only got a yellow.
  How does that work?
  
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  July 1, 2017 9:51pm
  - Colville
    
    and Vunipola attacked our 10 repeatedly doing exactly what Gatland was moaning about all week.
    
    But we lost because Barrett isnt a world class boot.
    
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    July 1, 2017 10:14pm
    - Manolo
      
      Unfortunately it is a risk the ABs encounter in high intensity, close games. BB’s goal kicking is a bit of a lottery.
      
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      July 1, 2017 10:21pm
Captain Mainwaring

Thanks for that Sonny Bill Dickhead.
Hope that’s the last game you ‘play’ for the ABs.
7 0
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July 1, 2017 9:42pm
big bruv

Once again this thread shows the narcissistic nature of NZ fans. The result is never about the opposition playing better than the NZ team, it’s always about something else.
The facts are that the Lions would have won that game even if Sonny Bill Muslim had stayed on the park. The Lions played better than the NZ team, not that any of you would have noticed.
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July 1, 2017 9:52pm
Nookin

Maybe you should read the comments again bb. Mind you, being a boring bigot probably means that you only see what you want to see.
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July 1, 2017 10:04pm
RF

Jesus H Christ. Now they are calling the shoulder charge by SBW as being “clumsy”.

Soon he will get the player of the game cup…..
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July 1, 2017 10:05pm
Tauhei Notts

I saw that red card and thought the Moslem’s time would have been better spent fucking camels, than poncing about in the All Blacks’ backline. Even taking into account the number of cartoons he has placed upon himself.
6 1
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July 1, 2017 10:35pm
Left Right and Centre

What a moron. Hard not to hate the dumbarse.
Hope he’s not allowed near Eden Park to fuck up that game too.

Does he have a learning disability ? Mental illness ? It’s really really not that hard to get it right a lot more often than shit for brains does.

He’s just got the duh-duh boofhead league mentality – can’t be helped.

There’s plenty of other great players around – just as good if not better. You start scratching around for reasons why why why are they soooooooo besotted with the prick. What – does he just bring in so many bloody merchandise dollars ? Is he such a black hole style cash cow that he’s just blindly stuck fast on the selection list ? WTF is it ?? He’s a noddy knob. Any upside ain’t worth the huge potential game costing downside.

Is it really fun watching some duh-duh while cringing – worrying about what dipshit is going to do wrong next ? Is that worth it ?

I wouldn’t trust him with a McDs tray mat kids puzzle *fucktard*
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July 2, 2017 12:55am

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