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March 24, 2017 10:00am by Kokila Patel

Hagar

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Election 2017
Fun Things
Humour
Cartoon
John Stringer

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BeaB

To add to the dampness of the squib, Wayne Mapp’s revelation that he knew civilians had been killed came from a documentary by one of the authors on Maori TV in 2014!
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March 24, 2017 10:06am
- Nick R
  
  So why did NZDF keep saying there were no civilian casualties?
  
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  March 24, 2017 10:14am
  - rangitoto
    
    Were there?
    
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    March 24, 2017 10:47am
- Souvlaki
  
  …..and further by spelling his name incorrectly …( although I suspect subtly intentional !!)
  
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  March 24, 2017 10:14am
  - Inandout
    
    Maybe not, well rats do this when confronted-
    
    ‘The Hebrew name Hagar means “one who flees” or “one who seeks refuge.”
    
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    March 24, 2017 12:55pm
Rich Prick

When the enemy isn’t in a uniform it’s bound to happen. Are those dots too hard for Hager to connect?
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March 24, 2017 10:08am
Longknives

The whole thing is just pathetic.
All deliberately timed to attack the outgoing John Key.
The Left are genuinely grasping at straws here-And they are too desperate and stupid to realise that jumping into bed with idiots like Hager actually drives voters further to the Right..
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March 24, 2017 10:09am
- Paulus
  
  Boring already except for the mad media to help prop up sales.
  Grow up children of little or no war experience.
  Why try and bring the rest of your country down to your level.
  
  I see that Deborah Manning is now working for the Afghan villages where all this warfare is assumed took place.
  Money Money – Immigration and Money.
  Nasty New Zealand.
  Assume Greenpeace is once again financing her.
  Remember the Ahmed Zaoui case, her claim to fame.
  Election Year !!!!!
  
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  March 24, 2017 11:25am
- along
  
  I see the Herald reports that David Cunliffe’s deputy COS Deborah Manning will now use her law firm to bring suit against the government.
  
  Looking more & more like Dirty Politics Vol II
  
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  March 24, 2017 11:57am
  - holysheet
    
    I assume by this that she has taken instructions from the families of the dead in Afganistan?
    
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    March 24, 2017 2:43pm
    - along
      
      So the article implied.
      
      I found it unclear whether they had instructed her from Afghanistan, or whether some had since immigrated here.
      
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      March 24, 2017 2:47pm
kowtow

A particularly offensive Tremain in today’s ODT , showing a flippant Key waving goodbye with blood on his hands.

Now had a cartoonist done similar on race, sexuality, gender or Islam the same media running this cartoon would be in hyperdrive outrage mode.

Lugenpresse.

Speaking of which ,Gwynne Dyer in his McGuinness piece in same paper concludes with “A little violence could help to stimulate that kind of thinking” . My goodness, would it be OK if that little bit of violence was directed towards him or a family member?
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March 24, 2017 10:20am
eszett

So a post on a book about the death of civilians is filed under “humour” and “fun things”
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March 24, 2017 10:24am
- cmm
  
  The war and deaths are not the humour and fun things.
  
  There are plenty jokes about war and death. Did you hear the one about the IRA bloke who burned his lips on the exhaust pipe when he tried to blow up a car?
  
  Ever watched an episode of Hogan’s Heroes?
  
  The humour is in how the leftie have tried to fan this into a huge deal and it just crumpled.
  
  RNZ and stuff have been wetting their knickers over this for the last 2 and a half days, but the mud they are throwing is not sticking.
  
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  March 24, 2017 12:37pm
- questions
  
  Brown kids dying, that’s humor around here!
  
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  March 24, 2017 7:04pm
Tarquin North

I just can’t understand what motivates him. Who is he trying to hit? What does he have to gain? In a place like Afghanistan things go wrong, surely the “embedded” Jon Stevenson would understand that. Why was he there anyway? He has done a great deal of harm to the NZDF who gave him an opportunity few would ever get. Thanks Jon and Nicky, don’t bother going to the ANZAC parade.
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March 24, 2017 10:26am
- eszett
  
  So you are of the opinion that not the killing of civilians does harm to the NZDF, but talking about it?
  
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  March 24, 2017 10:36am
  - Tarquin North
    
    Did it even happen? Lot of factions and a lot of guns. Conjecture is not evidence.
    
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    March 24, 2017 10:43am
    - eszett
      
      Wayne Mapp seems to think it did happen.
      
      Mapp today confirmed that he described an SAS raid on an Afghani village as “disastrous” and “a fiasco”.
      
      “The words have been said, yes,” he told Radio New Zealand this morning.
      
      Until now, Mapp did not deny he made the comments but would not go any further.
      
      He conceded yesterday that civilians were killed in the operation, contradicting statements by the New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) and the government.
      
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823840
      
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449
      
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      March 24, 2017 10:49am
      - rangitoto
        
        Based on a TV show he saw once.
        
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        March 24, 2017 11:42am
    - Paulus
      
      Were the US and NZ troops all dressed identically – as of course they have no identity and their faces are covered.
      Assume that the rockets were fired by US helicopters as ground troops had none.
      
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      March 24, 2017 11:28am
jims_whare

I suspect that the London terror attack by a Muslim in civilian clothing, driving a civilian car, has unconsciously put a dampener on the whole civilian deaths money earner.

If I were Hagar I would working on a follow up book showing how John Key orchestrated the London attack to take the heat off about Afghanistan.

Plain as day to anyone who isn’t a rich prick tory.
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March 24, 2017 10:28am
- Keeping Stock
  
  Dead right jims_whare. Sure, Khalid Masood was a British-born fanatic, but he has clearly been influenced by adherents of the people the SAS were fighting in Afghanistan.
  
  Civilian casualties in war are regrettable, just as civilian casualties at the hands of terrorists are regrettable. But they are now part of the environment we live in and with, and it is only a matter of time before there is an incident like the London attack right here in New Zealand.
  
  I was in Martin Place in Sydney in April last year, near the Lindt cafe where there had been an earlier terrorist incident. Suddenly there were sirens, armed police, fire engines etc coming from all directions as it was suspected there was a bomb in a car just up the road. It came to nothing, but as I got out of there quick-smart, I could see the looks of fear and confusion on the faces of locals. And I understood why such incidents are called “terrorism”.
  
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  March 24, 2017 10:49am
Kea

➡ It is an invasion not a war.
➡ The people being attacked are civilians bravely defending their country.
➡ The people being murdered have never attacked another country.
➡ No Afghans were involved in 911. It was the US allies the Saudis who planned, financed and carried it out.
➡ All deaths in Afghanistan are civilian. They are not fighting any army. They are cowards killing lightly armed dirt-poor civilians.
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March 24, 2017 10:30am
- Mr_Blobby
  
  You forgot to mention the the Saudis were left of the US Immigration ban list.
  
  That said at the time it was hailed as a great military victory and I am sure their was no shortage of gongs handed out.
  
  I wonder if they will be collecting them back in.
  
  So what did we achieve in Afghanistan.
  
  Oh yes we built a school, no photos or other evidence that it was built, and certainly no costings.
  
  This was not the only military setback we had in Afghanistan.
  
  So I will ask again what did we really achieve and at what cost.
  
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  March 24, 2017 10:38am
  - Kea
    
    Built a school, then bombed a hospital.
    
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike
    
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    March 24, 2017 11:00am
- KevinH
  
  Oh yes the Taliban have become civilised now.They no longer execute raped women at the local football stadium or stone them to death for being disobedient to their husbands who they married when they were 10 years old.
  The warlords have given up keeping 8 year old toyboys as sex slaves and they no longer watch graphic beheading videos for light entertainment.
  By the way those dirt poor villagers no longer grow opium for the lucrative Euro market and don’t offer bed and breakfast to Pakistani talibs while they are getting weapons training.
  
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  March 24, 2017 11:46am
  - realityczech
    
    So this 13 year war is about women’s rights ? Loon.
    
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    March 24, 2017 12:08pm
  - Mr_Blobby
    
    “dirt poor villagers no longer grow opium for the lucrative Euro market”
    
    And the US market.
    
    What I always found strange was that under the Taliban opium production declined sharply.
    
    Under the US occupation opium production went to new highs.
    
    One person even suggested that US customs was banned from searching containers from Afghanistan.
    
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    March 24, 2017 12:27pm
MGT

Another Stringer cartoon that misses the target.
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March 24, 2017 10:32am
- mikenmild
  
  It took him a couple of days to draw what DPF glibly said without reading the book either.
  
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  March 24, 2017 10:34am
  - Fletch
    
    I haven’t read the book either, but I’ve seen enough on the news to know there’s nothing in it. I don’t agree with everything Ian Wishart writes either, but at least his books have some substance and involve actual, you know, journalism
    
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    March 24, 2017 11:21am
    - MGT
      
      So you haven’t seen much of the news then. I think that you must have pre-judged the book by looking at one of the authors names.
      
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      March 24, 2017 12:11pm
      - Paulus Gnome
        
        True that, in the same vein as I will never read anything by E L James.
        
        If it looks like a turd, if it smells like a turd, chances are, it is a turd.
        
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        March 24, 2017 1:41pm
peterwn

4) It was all John Key’s fault – especially as I had to rush the book out of the door when John unexpectedly resigned.
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March 24, 2017 10:33am
Peter

In a world where civilians regularly get mowed down by “soldiers of ideology” driving trucks, and get blown up by bombs, and get shot, the fact a few in Afganistan also met the same fate is just not going to have legs.

English should ignore it. Few who aren’t far-left frothing anti-Key loon gives a sh*t.
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March 24, 2017 10:37am
- eszett
  
  Is that really the set of values that you think our society and defence force should aspire to?
  
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  March 24, 2017 10:44am
flipper

Hagerisms are promoted by the red rabbits at TVs 1 and 3 and on red radio – programmes that have few attentive (its just background BS noise) listeners.

Collateral damage (aka the death or imjury of civilians) is regrettable and something to be minimised, but in any war it cannot be avoided.

Revenge raids are as old as the hills and have involved New Zealand soldiers as much as any other national group.

This whole episode is a bullshit promotion by Hager and his fellow travellers. Even if true, it is NOT a war crime. It is regretable, nothing more.

They (Hager and his duped followers) talk about war crimes, but groups like the Taliban use children to mask their activities (also true in Iraq, Syria etc), and they dont care about age. That is the REAL CRIME. And New Zealand responses (if it is true that this happened in the Hindukush (etc.) are well established and justified.

A true anecdote:
My Father was a member of the first echelon of NZ troops sent to Gallipoli in the First WW.

Initially, they were based in the Egyptian desert (or whatever it was called then) for training.

Twice they lost several men manning outposts to mysterious and silent night attacks. In each instance the NZers throats had been cut, and their boots, rifles, ammunition belts, and hats stolen.

My Father recounted to me the reprisal action taken.
With Officers dining and quaffing port in their “mess” (wink, wink; nod, nod), several NZ squads, organized and lead by NCOs, went from Bedouin/Arab camp to camp one night until they found the culprits -all wearing the ex NZ boots.

Those individuals and others were shot or bayoneted.

Whether women and children were killed he did not say, BUT …………

There were no further “boot raids” on the NZ troops.

To repeat: My Father related this to me and said that he had been proud to be in the reprisal raid.

So…. come 2010 (or whenever) : Tough shit ragheads.
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March 24, 2017 10:50am
- SGA
  
  Whether women and children were killed he did not say, BUT …………
  
  but what – it’s probably the most relevant part of your narrative. Are you saying that you think that they also slaughtered their wives and children, and that was a good thing?
  
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  March 24, 2017 11:09am
- RF
  
  flipper. Fact of life…. my father told me of incidents in WW2 where in the cold light of day they could be classed as war crimes. Both sides were guilty however it was a matter of survival. That is war….
  
  Grape faces motives are not for the good of mankind as it’s just a left wing attack on a right wing Govt. Politics 101.
  
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  March 24, 2017 11:10am
  - Rachael Membery
    
    Intent is everything!!!
    
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    March 24, 2017 3:21pm
- Kea
  
  When did Afghanistan attack NZ ?
  
  Just the rough date, within a year or two will do.
  
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  March 24, 2017 11:38am
  - Harlequin
    
    Well you see there was this woman and her kids across the road having the shit beaten out of them but no one went to help because it wasn’t on their side of the road.
    
    Might happen on your world sunshine but not in mine.
    
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    March 24, 2017 12:54pm
    - Kea
      
      Harlequin, Great so no worries if I turn up at your place with a few lads and kick your teeth out because I don’t like the way you treat your partner ? Lets see how that goes keyboard warrior.
      
      Are you seriously saying this 13 year invasion is about womens rights ? While the US backs the Sharia law regime of Saudia Arabia, which is the worst place on the planet for religious extremism and abuse of women. As well as being the ones who carried out, planned and financed 911
      
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      March 24, 2017 3:38pm
      - Harlequin
        
        You obviously don’t know me. Turn up with a few lads to kick my teeth in? Bring it on but don’t tell me you’re coming, it’s more fun that way.
        
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        March 24, 2017 6:05pm
      - Kea
        
        Its just to protect the women you understand. We will stay about 15 years.
        
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        March 24, 2017 6:11pm
- mikenmild
  
  I think your father gave you the rosy version:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surafend_affair
  
  There is also a good account in Christopher Pugsley’s account of military discipline in WWI, On the Fringe of Hell.
  
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  March 24, 2017 11:38am
SGA

If NZ sends armed troops to places where there are active engagements with an enemy, then there is a real chance that relatively innocent bystanders may get killed. We have to accept that.

On the other hand, I can’t endorse the casual dismissal of civilian deaths with “oh, well it’s war” or “tough shit ragheads”. Such thinking and attitudes just leads to this sort of thing –
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre
(and “No”, I’m not for a moment suggesting that NZ troops were involved in anything remotely like that massacre – it’s a comment on the attitude of some in this thread).
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March 24, 2017 11:17am
Nermal

In the last Israeli incursion into Gaza in response to rockets being fired from there, a large number of civilians were killed. Just coincidentally, the majority just happened to be males aged between 16 and 24.
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March 24, 2017 11:19am
Stars And Stripes

Judging the actions of soldiers and police and other members of the “security forces” seems pretty much a full time occupation by a certain set of moralists in New Zealand and around the world.
Of course these people have never been in any comparable situation themselves so actually know nothing about the thoughts and split second decisions which have to be made by those in the firing line.
Sitting in an office reading the Geneva Conventions and human rights legislation is all these saints need to reach clarity on who is to blame and what should have been done instead.
I admire their bravery immensely.
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March 24, 2017 11:29am
- Kea
  
  Yes you are right. Personally I have never gone around butchering innocent civilians in their homeland. So who am I to judge what one of those gutless cowards in the NZDF would do ?
  
  Good point.
  
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  March 24, 2017 11:32am
  - Stars And Stripes
    
    Kea I don’t know what you do for a job but if you have never served in the armed forces in a war zone then it’s easy to say that.
    People who are put in those situations have to make choices that other people would never had to contemplate making in a million years.
    
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    March 24, 2017 11:40am
    - Keeping Stock
      
      I suspect Kea’s return to Kiwiblog will be short, with grossly offensive and defamatory comments such as the one above.
      
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      March 24, 2017 11:55am
      - lifesgood
        
        Keeping Stock…I certainly hope so.
        
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        March 24, 2017 12:58pm
      - Kea
        
        I find it “grossly offensive” that you would support the unjustified invasion of a country to slaughter civilians.
        
        If I am banned for speaking out against that is says more about the inhabitants of this moral sewer than it does about me.
        
        They were not fighting an army they were killing civilians defending their homeland. The Afghans and indigenous Taliban tribes have attacked no one outside of their tribal zones. Let alone NZ or the US.
        
        If your hatred and prejudice do not align with the facts then you need to sort you “grossly offensive” head out.
        
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        March 24, 2017 1:06pm
      - Paulus Gnome
        
        I have downticked just about everything of Kea’s today and reported one of the more inane and offensive posts.
        
        A report I cannot blame on fat fingers and a small screen as I have a new(er) phone (someone elses cast off) and I still have the fat fingers
        
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        March 24, 2017 1:48pm
      - markm
        
        To Keas comment re indigenous Taliban tribe.
        They are a Sunni Fundamentalist political organisation , not indigenous and not a tribe.
        If you want to be an arsehole at least aspire to being an arsehole who knows what he’s talking about
        
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        March 24, 2017 1:52pm
      - Kea
        
        markm straight into the lies
        
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali
        
        Maybe you can apply your diseased mind to these simple questions :
        
        1. Who were the NZDF fighting?
        
        2. Why were they there in the first place?
        
        ps. no more lies okay ?
        
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        March 24, 2017 2:44pm
    - Kea
      
      SS, I do not blame the NZDF. I blame the politicians who sent them there.
      
      BTW the only heroes are the lightly armed peasants fighting for their country.
      
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      March 24, 2017 1:07pm
      - Keeping Stock
        
        Compare and contrast:
        
        So who am I to judge what one of those gutless cowards in the NZDF would do ?
        
        and:
        
        SS, I do not blame the NZDF. I blame the politicians who sent them there.
        
        One of these things is not like the other. Is Kea now suggesting that NZDF aren’t “gutless cowards”?
        
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        March 24, 2017 2:33pm
      - Kea
        
        Keeping Stock, you forgot to answer the following:
        
        1. Why were they there ?
        
        2. Who were they fighting ?
        
        BTW did you think the nazi who killed civilians were brave soldiers, or is this yet another double standard ?
        
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        March 24, 2017 2:41pm
      - niggly
        
        Paul Buchanan explains it well, why don’t you read the whole article and educate yourself?
        
        http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1001/S00161.htm
        So why are they there? The reasons for the NZDF dual contribution to ISAF are twofold. One has to do with the nature of the threat, and the other has to do with the nature of New Zealand’s international obligations.
        
        Because they have no respect for universal human rights or toleration of difference, a Taliban victory over ISAF would have seriously negative repercussions for the people of Afghanistan (women and non-Pashtun ethnic minorities in particular). Its triumph will embolden jihadists worldwide and will promote instability throughout Central Asia (where there are Taliban-style insurgencies in countries such as Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan, and a growing Islamicist presence amongst ethnic Uyghers in China’s Xinjiang autonomous region). It will hasten the centrifugal deterioration of Pakistan, which in turn will draw India and China’s immediate military attention given Pakistan’s status as a nuclear-armed state. At that point the US and other major actors such as Russia will feel compelled to get involved. Under such circumstances the possibility of escalation into major inter-state conflict cannot be dismissed. For its part, al-Qaeda will find renewed motivation and sanctuary should the Taliban regain control of Afghanistan, compounding the threat not only to neighbouring countries but to the rest of the world as well. Put succinctly: the repercussions of a Taliban victory will seriously threaten the prospects for a peaceful and stable world order.
        
        That is the New Zealand stake in the conflict. New Zealand is fighting in Afghanistan not because it is confronted with an immediate threat to its national survival, but because an ISAF defeat has globally negative implications.
        
        Counter-insurgency and nation-building operations go hand-in-hand in the ISAF mission, as one provides the security conditions conducive to the success of the other. New Zealand is involved in both.
        
        Which leads to the second point, having to do with New Zealand’s role as a global citizen. New Zealand is one of the most vocal supporters of the United Nations and multilateral military-led peacekeeping and nation-building operations.
        
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        March 24, 2017 4:16pm
  - G152
    
    Of course you haven’t.
    You’re hiding in the safety zone behind the lines.
    But it’s not going to be safe for much longer with the incursion of mad muslims and why should the military you hate come to your rescue when you’re threatened ?
    
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    March 24, 2017 1:58pm
- waikatogirl
  
  S&S, those moralists are also huge supporters of the UN and other useless government quangos.
  
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  March 24, 2017 11:53am
big bruv

So a few ‘innocent’ civilians got wasted. I don’t really care.
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March 24, 2017 12:22pm
- Kea
  
  Would you say that if it were dead Jews ?
  
  Didn’t I see you on another thread crying rivers of fake tears over a couple of poms hit by a car ?
  
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  March 24, 2017 3:44pm
dime

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0
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March 24, 2017 12:32pm
Fentex

What a load of shit and DPF ought be ashamed of himself for first making this argument on his own and now trying to keep it alive.

Hagar may or may not have a case, he may or may not simply be trying to forge a career out of digging dirt, but we DID convict people of war-crimes in the past and we DO have laws about the proper way to behave while prosecuting war.

The Japanese Imperial Army was not allowed to shrug and say “Hey, bystanders get killed” when we tried, convicted and hanged members thereof for crimes, neither did the Waffen SS* or many people we hanged for behaving barbarically and just “happening” to kill bystanders in their warring.

We got on side with laws against war crimes because we saw ourselves as being on the side of angels and wanted to prevent evil being done in the name of capricious violence and prejudiced attitudes.

Soldiers can commit war-crimes, and certainly will not feel interested in avoiding them if it’s presumed they never would or could simply because they’re OUR soldiers.

Given the NZDF lied about this (a fact evident from sources other than Hagar) I think we need stronger assurances we’re in the right.

Write and support this sort of mindless folly and as I pointed out about Green MP’s being quick to be arseholes, you too lose rights to moral ground.

*; I had the following paragraph in there but removed it because I was pretty sure people not willing to commit to the rule of law would shrug and go “Oh, invoking the holocaust – how trite”. But I still happen to think it’s relevant and so move it here with this introduction – while the facts remain something to study, the principles are IMPORTANT, they MATTER and choosing your position with regards to them forms your character…

“In particular DPF – you’re offering anti-semitic moral support for people who argue the concentration camps of Nazi Germany were merely, like U.S Camps for Japanese Internees, collateral damage with deaths caused by disease and hunger as resources to care for prisoners were lost to battle.

That’s a lie – but the opportunity to say it isn’t just with regards to camps, it includes homes, fields and barns everywhere the armies taking such rule go, and DPF really ought pull himself up and think what it means to belittle the rule of law so casually and how far that poison spreads.

Hey, wars happen and civilians get killed, right?”
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March 24, 2017 1:05pm
- Fentex
  
  I feel I need to be clearer on my central point, because I think it’s pretty easy to get distracted by how I tried to make it (in anger) above;
  
  Being confident Hagar is wrong and our forces would not have committed a crime is one thing, dismissing Hagar as a muck racking self aggrandising tool is a personal opinion anyone might have – and perhaps someone with any other kind of opinion may very well agree on studying facts that he is wrong.
  
  That is not what is happening when someone disparages the very concept of enforcing anti-war-crime legislation by blithely dismissing the essential basis for it’s existence by saying “Hey, civilians get killed in war” as if it’s no thing.
  
  It is a thing. It’s one of the reasons we fought at times to stop the rule of people who thought is was no thing.
  
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  March 24, 2017 1:26pm
  - Kea
    
    Good on you Fentex.
    
    The double standards on display around here are sickening.
    
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    March 24, 2017 2:56pm
  - SPC
    
    It is Nicky Hager.
    
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    March 24, 2017 4:57pm
- Jack5
  
  Fentex’s 1.05 post included:
  
  The Japanese Imperial Army was not allowed to shrug and say “Hey, bystanders get killed” when we tried, convicted and hanged members thereof for crimes, neither did the Waffen SS* or many people we hanged for behaving barbarically and just “happening” to kill bystanders in their warring.
  
  What garbage. America suspended prosecution of Japanese military men when they realised they needed Japan on side to confront Russia and China.
  
  Werner von Braun, the V2 project leader, wasn’t prosecuted for his war crimes, and became the brains of the American space programme.
  
  Reinhard Gehlen, the Nazi general who headed German intelligence on the Eastern front, became a spymaster for the U.S. until 1956.
  
  It’s offensive and disgraceful, but not unexpected, for Leftists like Fentex to compare our brave SAS to the Waffen SS.
  
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  March 24, 2017 7:26pm
  - Fentex
    
    You seem to be missing my point.
    
    There’s a lot of hypocrisy in the prosecution of war crimes, for instance proving the prosecuting side did what you did was considered a defence which is essentially an admission that the crimes are pursued as victors justices (Australia got a salutary lesson in this about twenty years ago when they legislated to make it easier to pursue war criminals expecting to deport some Nazis but were surprised when the Japanese came calling for Australians).
    
    I disdain that hypocrisy, I want the rule of law to be upheld without fear or favour and have no hesitation in demanding it in other circumstances.
    
    America suspended prosecution of Japanese military men when they realised they needed Japan on side to confront Russia and China.
    
    Oh, this seems to be an admission some people practice real politik and by inference you support that. I don’t.
    
    It’s offensive and disgraceful, but not unexpected, for Leftists like Fentex to compare our brave SAS to the Waffen SS.
    
    I did no such thing. I argue to uphold the law and against arguments that disparage it. I personally do not know, nor argue, if NZ soldiers have committed a crime to be compared to anyone.
    
    About the only allegiance I’ll admit to is being on the side of civilization and the rule of law. I want to be proud of my representatives and agents because they are doing good, I do not think they are good simply because they are my representatives and agents.
    
    When (and the NZDF lying suggests) a question arises I want it treated with dispassionate, honest and transparent investigation and justice so that I know I’m on the right side, not just ‘feel’ or ‘assume’ it.
    
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    March 24, 2017 9:54pm
JasonJohns

Well said big bruv. How can a Muslim be a civilian? Even the kids will grow up to be enemies one day. The soldiers who killed these six according to Hager – they should only be reprimanded for not killing more.

My Lai? Bring it on.
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March 24, 2017 1:09pm
- Kea
  
  “How can a Muslim be a civilian? Even the kids will grow up to be enemies one day.”
  
  How can a Jew be a civilian ? It is Israel with compulsory military training. Even though they have the USA and other goyim do the dirty work for them.
  
  Aren’t they disgusting people don’t you think ?
  
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  March 24, 2017 2:54pm
Kea

On another thread these very same keyboard cowards are putting on a fake show of outrage over a couple of poms hit by a car.

On this thread a full on military strike on civilians is excused.

Gutless cowards.
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March 24, 2017 3:51pm
SPC

The issue is accountability of the military to the government, was the government informed accurately as to events (related question did it want to know/be informed accurately)?

From this comes transparency, the government accountable to the people when sending military abroad and general international standards regarding the exercise of force in civilian areas.
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March 24, 2017 4:52pm
- SPC
  
  PS The NZDF were not there to fight locals.
  
  They were there to
  
  1. do some nation building (expanded to include response to attacks as in the instance covered in the book).
  2. train up locals in counter-terrorism (expanded to include actions with them).
  
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  March 24, 2017 5:03pm
Harriet

It’s urban warfare with trained soldiers, the result is not much different to police car chases from time to time.

Unfortunately shit happens, but given the training, thankfully it hardly happens.

Hager is an idiot and so are those who argue his case.
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March 24, 2017 5:55pm
Disaster Area

As someone who has served in the armed forces, this type of outcome is amongst the worst thing that soldiers fear. It is the dead civilians that cause the PTSD, not the dead soldiers.

Having said that, these things do happen. What isn’t acceptable is any cover up by the Ministry or the Army. If Wayne Mapp is saying that he knew about in 2014 then something should have been done then and anyone colluding to hide the truth should be investigated.
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March 24, 2017 6:03pm
Kea

Whoops not again …….

Published time: 24 Mar, 2017 05:04

Scores feared dead in ruined Mosul building hit by coalition airstrike – witnesses

Over 130 people trying to take shelter from the fighting in Mosul have been buried under the rubble of a building hit by a coalition airstrike, witnesses say in a video released by AP.

https://www.rt.com/news/382111-mosul-airstrike-130-shelter/
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March 24, 2017 6:24pm
KevinH

Firstly it is counter productive to become emotional over what are essentially allegations that can not be substantiated.
The NZDF has consistently stated that no Defence Force personnel were responsible for civilian deaths in this raid and that is entirely possible considering the joint action taken by Afghani and US forces in the raid.
Reports from anonymous sources claiming SAS marksmen killed two civilians are just not credible and only add to the hysterical response particularly from lawyers who are acting for villagers affected by the raid.
The New Zealand government has no obligation to initiate an inquiry into the affair because the allegations are just that allegations. To date no one person has come forward to corrobate the allegations or offer evidence to support the allegations. To assert that NZDF SAS are responsible for the deaths solely because they were there is irresponsible, there is no proof to support that allegation.
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March 24, 2017 6:38pm
- questions
  
  Proof is in the comments of the SAS troops who were there on site and became the sources for this book. There is more than enough detail for those at NZDF with the appropriate staff files to confirm the veracity of the content. The fact that you don’t believe the sources doesn’t count for fucking shit.
  
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  March 24, 2017 7:07pm
  - Jack5
    
    Why don’t you find out where ex-SAS guys drink and wander in and ask them.
    
    2 3
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    March 24, 2017 7:18pm
    - Kea
      
      Why don’t you find the Mosque where radical Islamists pray and go in and tell them your ideas ?
      
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      March 24, 2017 7:27pm
      - Jack5
        
        And meet you and Stephiestanis there? No thanks.
        
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        March 24, 2017 7:28pm
tusker

Hager and (especially ) Stephenson are fully aware there is zero chance of ever accurately establishing the sequence of events on that raid , due to the involvement of coalition forces, especially air power. Attributing ‘blame’ is not going to be possible as the US will never engage on the basis of journalistic accusation.

Even if there is an enquiry launched by the NZ govt. it will reach a stalemate because without the yanks filling in the missing pieces, the story will always remain incomplete. It will forever remain simply assertions and counter assertions.

For Hager and Stephenson to raise public expectations that the hidden truth will out, is dishonesty. Stephenson’s experience of how the military machinery works in multi national coalition conflicts, must mean he knows his allegations will remain just that.
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March 24, 2017 8:44pm
- cubit
  
  Why don’t H & S make all of their substantiated “evidence” available to everyone now?
  
  Firstly they enjoy the suspense that is generated by drip feeding and the prolongation of agony.
  
  Secondly they enjoy the notoriety of being the Centre of attention .
  
  Thirdly they are not sure of the veracity of their evidence so prolongation can be managed on a piecemeal basis. A never ending inquiry satisfies the second.
  
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  March 25, 2017 12:39pm
- cubit
  
  Why don’t H & S make all of their substantiated “evidence” available to everyone now?
  Firstly they enjoy the suspense that is generated by drip feeding and the prolongation of agony.
  
  Secondly they enjoy the notoriety of being the Centre of attention .
  
  Thirdly they are not sure of the veracity of their idence so prolongation can be managed 9n a piecemeal basis. A never ending inquiry satisfies the second.
  
  1 0
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  March 25, 2017 12:41pm

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