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July 11, 2016 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 11 July 2016

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Kimbo

@ SGA

Don’t know about SJW, but “political correctedness” at best was more of an ironic self-description, wasn’t it? The vast majority of that expression’s use has been pejorative, I would have thought.

Um, I remember a lecturer of mine some 25 years ago using it is a favourable sense…although I think he also later mentioned that “Complaining about PC has become the new-PC”. Same thing has happened with virtue-signalling

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/20/virtue-signalling-putdown-passed-sell-by-date
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July 11, 2016 6:11pm
Kimbo

I detect a ~~smidgeon~~ trowel of sarcasm. ?

There! Fixed that for ya…
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July 11, 2016 6:13pm
SGA

Kimbo at 6:11 pm

Um, I remember a lecturer of mine some 25 years ago using it is a favourable sense…although I think he also later mentioned that “Complaining about PC has become the new-PC”.

Your lecturer might have been something of an exception? My memories of the word are predominantly (exclusively?) negative.
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July 11, 2016 6:16pm
Shawn Herles

@sam green

“This is sad. How about some compassion? Somebody? Anybody?”

My views on the issue of resettling large numbers of Muslims in the West should be well known by now.

That said, while the refugees are there the Greek government has a duty of care and protection. I have no idea how reliable the Greek police or army are, but they should be sent there to protect the refugees against any abuse or violence.
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July 11, 2016 6:16pm
AgentBallSack

Medieval Christian views on Mohammed:

During the Early Middle Ages, the Christian world largely viewed Islam as a Christological heresy and Muhammad as a false prophet. By the Late Middle Ages, Islam was more typically grouped with heathenism and Muhammad viewed as inspired by the devil. A more relaxed or benign view of Islam only developed in the modern period, after the Islamic empires ceased to be an acute military threat to Europe.

The earliest documented Christian knowledge of Muhammad stems from Byzantine sources, written shortly after Muhammad’s death in 632. With the Crusades of the High Middle Ages, and the wars against the Ottoman Empire during the Late Middle Ages, the Christian reception of Muhammad became more polemical, moving from the classification as a heretic to depiction of Muhammad as a servant of Satan or as the Antichrist, who will be suffering tortures in Hell.

In the Doctrina Jacobi nuper baptizati, a dialogue between a recent Christian convert and several Jews, one participant writes that his brother “wrote to [him] saying that a deceiving prophet has appeared amidst the Saracens”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Christian_views_on_Muhammad
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July 11, 2016 6:16pm
AgentBallSack

Perhaps it’s time to take a less benign view of Islam again
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July 11, 2016 6:18pm
SGA

AgentBallSack at 6:18 pm

Perhaps it’s time to take a less benign view of Islam again

If you are feeling left out…
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July 11, 2016 6:21pm
Kimbo

@ SGA

Your lecturer might have been something of an exception?

He was the only one whom I remember using it, but the context was valid (as I recall he was describing subtle forms of anti-Semitism in some schools of biblical scholarship).

Also, my memory of the time (early 1990s) was that opposition to the phrase PC in NZ was just beginning to codify, especially when Lindsay Perigo left TVNZ and started his libertarian broadcasting (no doubt informed by conservative American influences among others) against a few choice targets. Those no doubt included all that he saw as a legacy of the likes of the Frankfurt School….
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July 11, 2016 6:28pm
mikenmild

Shawn
I don’t really know what relevance the New Left might have to labelling everyone you disagree with as a Social Justice Warrior. If your Wikipedia reference was intended to clarify that point: well, it didn’t.
I know it suits your agenda to lump any idea with which you might disagree with every other idea that you find discreditable, but reality is not so simple as you appear to believe.
Just as not every conservative is stupid enough to be a distributist, so every liberal is not a socialist or communist or whatever.
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July 11, 2016 6:55pm
Lucia Maria

EAD at 8:44 am said:

100,000 homes – ignoring the stupidity of the policy, what a mess the elites are making of our country. That we need to build another 100k homes is the real story.

What a rotten state the “system” is in when the only way we can get growth is to concrete over our countryside and live like rats in cookie cutter apartments for which we must spend a lifetime servicing the debt.

We are losing what once made this country special all for the sake of a few % points of debt fuelled “GDP”.

The comment attracted a 15:3 ratio of up votes to down votes.

Everyone that upvoted him needs to pay attention to where EAD is coming from when he makes these sorts of comments.

First, he wants to go back the gold standard, even though this would mean that gold would become unaffordable for the average person on the street, and those gold rings on your fingers and the small amounts of gold in computer circuitry would be worth an absolute fortune. Cool for a while, but then completely unworkable. The world is moved on, GDP is too massive to be backed by physical gold.

Second, all this ranting about “elites” helps pave the way for some sort of major revolution in the future, on par with the type of transformation that Russia went through when Bolsheviks wiped out the rulers and then the layers beneath them and the layers beneath them so that the only ones that were left were the Bolsheviks and the poorest of the poor. The middle class and above are part of the “elite system” we live under. Ranting and allowing others to rant about elites paves the way for the destruction of the way of life that just about everyone here enjoys. Wake up.

And thirdly, losing what made this country special??? Wasn’t NZ one of the richest countries around in the past? And what makes us special is that we are so damn far away from everything else, yet we have pretty much a first world society here. Worrying about GDP helps us stay that way. Having access to debt helps us get ahead. Sure we have to pay it off, but it’s better than being stuck in a world where development can’t happen because money lending doesn’t exist.

Fourthly, the 100,000 homes comes from a party that is failing to get traction at the moment. Are they in charge? No. They have no say right now, all they can do is throw baubles in the air and see who catches them and therefore helps them get back into power. But they are not in power, and therefore not part of the ruling elite as such.

So EAD is just mixing up a whole lot of stuff that people react to, in an effort to engender outrage to see what sticks. Ignore him. Where he is coming from is so out of the mainstream and so close to the murdering totalitarians of the last century that it burns just to talk to him, and to talk about him. But then someone has to do it.

Rant over.
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July 11, 2016 6:58pm
Shawn Herles

@Mike

“Shawn
I don’t really know what relevance the New Left might have to labelling everyone you disagree with as a Social Justice Warrior.”

SJW is just a term for New Left political activist. The Wki article spelt out what New Left is. Really, it was plain as day.

I don’t use the term for anyone I disagree with. Starting out with false statements like that is a standard tactic with you, and one reason why you get so many downticks.

I disagree with Islam. I don’t think Muslims are SJW’s.

I disagree with Communism. I don’t think communists are SJW’s.

I disagree with Nazism, I don’t think Nazi’s are SJW’s.

As a Protestant I disagree with Roman Catholicism. I don’t think Roman Catholics are SJW’s.

I use both SJW and PC in clearly identifiable and historically accurate ways.

These terms have valid, concrete meanings, both as I use them and as they are used generally by others. They are meanings that can be Googled, or researched.

The truth is mike, you don’t like having your political ideology named and shamed, and you like to pretend that what you believe is just “observing reality” or whatever other dishonest and pompous crap you try to hide behind.

Hence your whining about SJW and PC. But I’m not buying your snow job, and I doubt most other people here are.

Dinners up. Later.
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July 11, 2016 7:10pm
big bruv

Please somebody start a petition to get that smarmy pinko wanker Jack Tame off TV.
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July 11, 2016 7:13pm
mikenmild

Oh, you think I’m a ‘New Leftist’? I’m not.
Why can’t a Roman Catholic be a social justice warrior? I’m sure that I wouldn’t have to trawl very deeply in the alt-right sewer to find him described as such.
Wouldn’t Jesus (if he existed) be classed as a social justice warrior?
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July 11, 2016 7:13pm
Lucia Maria

And now for something completely different, since we were talking about Assembler code the other day that powered spacecraft…

The code that took America to the moon was just published to GitHub, and it’s like a 1960s time capsule.

They’ve got a couple of examples of what the code looks like and some of the funnier comment sections, such as this sort of thing (loosely transcribed minus the assember, below:

#Astronaut: Please crank the silly thing around
#Terminate
#Proceed – See if he is lying
#Enter – Initialise landing radar

And then to leave the routine, this time with the assembler, but without the tab locations for the code:
TC POSTJUMP #Off to see the wizard
CADR BURNBABY

“That code is all about positioning the antenna for the LR (landing radar),” Burkey explained. “I presume that it’s displaying a code to warn the astronaut to reposition it.”
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July 11, 2016 7:15pm
starboard

..and that stupid tart HDA…where the fluck is Why-O…its Why-our you stupid bint, always has been, always will be. Ask any murri from up that way..Why-our= Waiau.
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July 11, 2016 7:18pm
Viking2

Cool picture of our past

https://www.facebook.com/624647914290150/photos/a.624658607622414.1073741829.624647914290150/1040127949408809/?type=3&theater
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July 11, 2016 7:23pm
Shawn Herles

“Oh, you think I’m a ‘New Leftist’? I’m not.”

You really are Mike. You call it Liberal-Left or libertarian Left, but those are just different lables for New Left. When it comes to policy and worldview, you’re New Left.

Like I said, you just don’t like having your political ideology named, shamed, and mocked, so you obfuscate and hide and whine about anyone who does so, pretending that it’s all too complex to define. Bollocks.

“Wouldn’t Jesus (if he existed) be classed as a social justice warrior?”

Did the New Left exist then? No. Again, you’re pretending the term has no specific, concrete and historical meaning. It does.
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July 11, 2016 7:26pm
mikenmild

Oh, so it’s only people who stand for social justice in the 21st century that need a derogatory name; earlier versions just get called Christians?
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July 11, 2016 7:28pm
Reid

Oh, so it’s only people who stand for social justice in the 21st century that need a derogatory name

No mm, as explained previously, it’s only sneering, supercilious, sanctimonious lefties that need a derogatory name.

Perhaps you should try some new tactics, if you’re worried about that.
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July 11, 2016 7:32pm
AgentBallSack

If Jesus was alive today

A> He would be labelled a terrorist from the middle east
B> He would look somewhat like Bin Ladens son
C> America would drone strike him and apologise later
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July 11, 2016 7:32pm
Shunda barunda

“Oh, so it’s only people who stand for social justice in the 21st century that need a derogatory name; earlier versions just get called Christians?’

No, the past warriors of faux social justice were known as Marxists and socialists, they were predecessors of the current mob.
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July 11, 2016 7:37pm
stigie

“Please somebody start a petition to get that smarmy pinko wanker Jack Tame off TV”.

I agree BB but us righties don’t like to start petitions for that purpose. We leave that up to the left parasites..?
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July 11, 2016 7:37pm
Scott Chris

Kimbo (6,500 comments) says:
July 11th, 2016 at 4:00 pm
@ Scott Chris

So you’ve decided to gravitate towards my posts, today, eh

I regularly do. Your posts are often thoughtful and erudite as far as I can see.
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July 11, 2016 7:39pm
mikenmild

Perhaps Shawn or the ever discerning Reid could identify the parts of Jesus’s gospel that do not call for social justice.
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July 11, 2016 7:39pm
sam green

Wasn’t Jesus a social justice warrior?
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July 11, 2016 7:44pm
mikenmild

sam
Shawn has already explained that Jesus could not be a social justice warrior, as that term was not known in the 1st century. What Jesus preached has to be interpreted in the light of what Shawn believes today, and social justice doesn’t come into that at all.
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July 11, 2016 7:47pm
Shawn Herles

“Oh, so it’s only people who stand for social justice in the 21st century that need a derogatory name”

No mike. Follow my words here closely, and slowly. It is the specific kind of social “justice” and the philosophical and political foundations behind it that make it New Left SJW.

Merely saying ‘social justice’ is, once again, trying to hide your political ideology, your political tribe. Like when a while back someone asked you your political views and you said “I just observe reality.”

Bollocks mike. And claiming that your version of social justice is not tied to your political tribe and beliefs is bollocks as well.

I mean seriously, do you really expect anyone to buy these obfuscations? They are rather obvious.

Your version of “social justice” is not philosophically or politically neutral. It is tied to a Leftist view of things, and one that is observably indebted to the New Left.
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July 11, 2016 7:51pm
Shawn Herles

“Wasn’t Jesus a social justice warrior?”

No. Jesus was a Biblical justice warrior. Biblical justice and Leftist social justice are not the same thing sam.
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July 11, 2016 7:54pm
sam green

I didn’t say leftist. You did.
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July 11, 2016 7:55pm
Shawn Herles

“Please somebody start a petition to get that smarmy pinko wanker Jack Tame off TV”.

Not possible. He’s a smarmy pinko wanker. He thus has a media job for life. 😉
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July 11, 2016 7:57pm
mikenmild

And what political ideology would Jesus subscribe to?
No one knows, actually. Over the centuries the gospels have been used to justify every form of control, reform and revolution known to the western world.
Seeing no one can agree about that, it should come as no surprise that Shawn struggles to define such things as liberalism and socialism.
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July 11, 2016 7:57pm
Scott Chris

sam green (731 comments) says:
July 11th, 2016 at 7:44 pm
Wasn’t Jesus a social justice warrior?

No Sam, Jesus’ contemporaneous equivalence can’t be valid in mystical terms.
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July 11, 2016 7:57pm
Don the Kiwi

Shawn

“As a Protestant I disagree with Roman Catholicism.”

Arguably your only, but definitely your biggest mistake. 😉
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July 11, 2016 8:00pm
Shawn Herles

“And what political ideology would Jesus subscribe to?”

None at all mike. Critics and enemies of Jesus tried to get him to take a stand on various political issues of the day. He refused. His mission was not a political program. Which is why there have been so many different and contradictory political interpretations of it.
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July 11, 2016 8:03pm
Don the Kiwi

Actually Shawn,

As I understand it, your protestantism is of the Anglican persuasion, and there are very few things that we dogmatically disagree on. 🙂
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July 11, 2016 8:08pm
Shawn Herles

As for me, while my Christian faith certainly influences my politics, I have always been very careful not to label my political views as a Christian political program, because they are not. There is no such thing.

And speaking of political tribes, here is mine…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_conservatism
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July 11, 2016 8:12pm
Kimbo

@ Scott Chris

So you’ve decided to gravitate towards my posts, today, eh

I regularly do. Your posts are often thoughtful and erudite as far as I can see.

Damn! I aim for tedious and verbose, and my many critics advise me I hit those kpi’s with the regularity of a metronome!

But thanks all the same for the compliment.
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July 11, 2016 8:14pm
Shawn Herles

I doubt there would be all that much we would diagree on Don. I have differences of opinion on some issues, mostly related to the classical Protestant-Catholic debate about faith and works, and the authority of the Pope, but I see them as more of a family debate, rather than a radical divide.
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July 11, 2016 8:16pm
sam green

Throwing the moneylenders out of the temple – why did he do that? Because they were usurers charging exorbitant interest rates.? What kind of economic model might that be? Simplistic but interesting.
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July 11, 2016 8:16pm
Shawn Herles

Excuse me for a moment, I want to catch up with the debate between Lucia and EAD.
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July 11, 2016 8:17pm
Don the Kiwi

Perhaps one or two other doctrinal and tradition issues, Shawn, otherwise, completely agree.

I must also say while on the subject, in accord with a comment above, that I am very impressed by Kimbo’s biblical knowledge and exegesis, despite it being from a Calvinist POV. 🙂
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July 11, 2016 8:20pm
nasska

….” and there are very few things that we dogmatically disagree on. ?”…..

Isn’t that sweet? Their belief in a Skydaddy papers over their differences.

For now! 🙂
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July 11, 2016 8:21pm
sam green

https://memegenerator.net/instance/60105593
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July 11, 2016 8:21pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Bangladesh is going to ban “Peace TV”

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36761486
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July 11, 2016 8:25pm
Shawn Herles

“I am very impressed by Kimbo’s biblical knowledge and exegesis, despite it being from a Calvinist POV.”

Yes, so am I. And to give credit where credit is due, he was outstanding today on the black crime/BLM issue.
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July 11, 2016 8:26pm
Shawn Herles

“Isn’t that sweet? Their belief in a Skydaddy papers over their differences.

For now! ”

We’ll be coming for you first nasska! We have to deal to the heathen before we get back to fighting each other! 😉
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July 11, 2016 8:29pm
Shawn Herles

Of course, being Catholic and Anglican, we’ll most likely end up at a pub and forget all about it. 🙂
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July 11, 2016 8:32pm
Stars And Stripes

Add Bangladesh or East Pakistan to that list of shitholes the world would be better off without as well.
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July 11, 2016 8:33pm
sam green

Stars and Stripes for minister of foreign affairs! Vote now! What have you got to lose?
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July 11, 2016 8:36pm
Stars And Stripes

Sam Green- I think Minister of Maori Affairs would be more appropriate personally.
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July 11, 2016 8:39pm
Jim

Anyone tried this quiz over at the Spinoff: Who said it? John Key in 2007 or Andrew Little in 2016

It’s harder than you’d think – but 11/12 is possible if you look at the choice of words instead of the message.

The sad thing is that neither of them have the balls to risk annoying Auckland homeowners. The situation will have to fester for another year or so before something else triggers the big unwind.
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July 11, 2016 8:42pm
sam green

Minister in charge of Nuclear Warheads. Yeah! See those suckers roast.
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July 11, 2016 8:42pm
Scott Chris

Yes well according to this account Jesus was a bit touchy about where or when you can trade: (loved this bit when I was a kid)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG1JWJFGfOU
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July 11, 2016 8:49pm
sam green

@Scott Chris

Jesus was a white American?
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July 11, 2016 8:56pm
sam green

Isn’t that funny – some people really think he is.
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July 11, 2016 8:58pm
Scott Chris

sam green (737 comments) says:
July 11th, 2016 at 8:56 pm
@Scott Chris

Jesus was a white American?

Good question. No not American, maybe a bit brown is as far as I can remember.
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July 11, 2016 9:00pm
Shawn Herles

“Isn’t that funny – some people really think he is.”

Only Mormons think that sam. 🙂
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July 11, 2016 9:05pm
Scott Chris

(declaration of context I was in Thailand for the first 8 years of my life so I guess Jesus was just another shade of brown to me at that age even though I had kinda figured that my race was possibly a privileged race)
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July 11, 2016 9:09pm
nasska

My imaginary Skydaddy is pasta coloured. 🙂
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July 11, 2016 9:12pm
DifferentPerspective

Meanwhile revolution is being fomented in the US

Saul Alinksy (whose writings Hillary did her thesis on) spelled out an 8 point plan for toppling a nation:
1) Healthcare — Control healthcare and you control the people
2) Poverty — Increase the Poverty level as high as possible, poor people are easier to control and will not fight back if you are providing everything for them to live.
3) Debt — Increase the debt to an unsustainable level. That way you are able to increase taxes, and this will produce more poverty.
4) Gun Control — Remove the ability to defend themselves from the Government. That way you are able to create a police state.
5) Welfare — Take control of every aspect of their lives (Food, Housing, and Income).
6) Education — Take control of what people read and listen to — take control of what children learn in school.
7) Religion — Remove the belief in the God from the Government and schools.
8) Class Warfare — Divide the people into the wealthy and the poor. This will cause more discontent and it will be easier to take (Tax) the wealthy with the support of the poor.

Sounds like Obama’s domestic policy platform down to a ‘t’. And step 8 seems to be going very well right now with more rioting as we speak.

Brought to you by the new national socialists in our midst – fascism is coming again. What a weird world!
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July 11, 2016 9:25pm
starboard

Geez you talk plenty of shit scottquiss…
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July 11, 2016 9:37pm
sam green

@DifferentPerspective

The 8 point myths you mean. A concrete example of right wing distortionism. Sure Alinsky was an organiser of the dispossessed mostly, but to sell this crap as real, and as his method, is completely dishonest.
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July 11, 2016 9:44pm
Ryan Sproull

Meanwhile revolution is being fomented in the US

Saul Alinksy (whose writings Hillary did her thesis on) spelled out an 8 point plan for toppling a nation:
1) Healthcare — Control healthcare and you control the people
2) Poverty — Increase the Poverty level as high as possible, poor people are easier to control and will not fight back if you are providing everything for them to live.
3) Debt — Increase the debt to an unsustainable level. That way you are able to increase taxes, and this will produce more poverty.
4) Gun Control — Remove the ability to defend themselves from the Government. That way you are able to create a police state.
5) Welfare — Take control of every aspect of their lives (Food, Housing, and Income).
6) Education — Take control of what people read and listen to — take control of what children learn in school.
7) Religion — Remove the belief in the God from the Government and schools.
8) Class Warfare — Divide the people into the wealthy and the poor. This will cause more discontent and it will be easier to take (Tax) the wealthy with the support of the poor.

Sounds like Obama’s domestic policy platform down to a ‘t’. And step 8 seems to be going very well right now with more rioting as we speak.

Brought to you by the new national socialists in our midst – fascism is coming again. What a weird world!

Alinsky wrote plenty of things, but never wrote this, which is why none of the instances of this list on the internet actually cite where it’s from. It appears to have been invented in an email that was first circulated around early 2014. And then repeated over and over by people who liked the sound of it, on blogs and forum comments, etc.
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July 11, 2016 9:46pm
starboard

So says you sam green, I and other rational thinkers would tend to agree with those 8 points.
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July 11, 2016 9:48pm
sam green

Because you’ve never read Saul Alinsky you moron. Rational thinkers? ::chuckle::
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July 11, 2016 9:50pm
sam green

Irrational wankers more like.
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July 11, 2016 10:13pm
Manolo

The EU roots for The crooked queen:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/reuters/eu-trade-chief—populist-movements-can-bring-isolation–failure/42287230
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July 12, 2016 6:42am

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