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May 7, 2016 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 7 May 2016

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General Debate

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stephieboy

Manolo, this must strongly resonate with you,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vezr3dW4J5s&bpctr=1462655659
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May 8, 2016 8:45am
Maggy Wassilieff

@Publicwatchdog

the Winebox Inquiry in Cook Islands tax avoidance in the 1990s,

The centre of the Winebox inquiry was the Magnum Transaction (Magnum was owned by European Pacific Investments),
The Transaction ($2M to Cook Is and tax credit from NZ) took place in 1986 – during the reign of the 4th Labour Government.

Good that Nats cleaned up this rubbish.
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May 8, 2016 8:59am
UglyTruth

@Maggy, Don the Kiwi

According to my Latin dictionary these meanings are available:

lucifer: light bringing;
Lucifer: Lucifer, Satan;
lucifer: morning star, day star, planet Venus; bringer of light;

The connection between Lucifer and the morning star (Venus) is found in the book of Isaiah:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isaiah 14:2, KJV

I’ve done a rough translation & have compared it Don’s translation (also found below)
http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-year/easter/easter-proclamation-exsultet.cfm

The context speaks of a candle honouring the name of the Lord (of the RCC).

L:Flammas eius lúcifer matutínus invéniat:
GT: Morning star meet with its flame
UT: Flame of love, see Lucifer of the early morning discovered.
DK: May this flame be found still burning by the Morning Star:

eia: how now!, Ha, Good, see! (of joy); see!, Quick! (of urgency/astonishment);
flamma: flame, blaze; ardor, fire of love; object of love;
invenio: come upon; discover, find; invent, contrive; reach, manage to get;
matutinus: early; of the (early) morning;

L: ille, inquam, lúcifer, qui nescit occásum.
GT: man, I say , O Lucifer, who does not know the going down
UT: The former say Lucifer, how be ignorant of opportunity?
DK: the one Morning Star who never sets,

ille: that; those (pl.); also DEMONST; that person/thing; the well known; the former;
inquiam: say (defective); (postpositive – for direct quote); [inquiens => saying];
nescitus: not know (how); be ignorant/unfamiliar/unaware/unacquainted/unable/unwilling;
occasio: opportunity; chance; pretext, occasion;
qui:how?; how so; in what way; by what/which means; whereby; at whatever price;

L: Christus Fílius tuus,
GT: Christ is your Son
UT: Christ, son of yours
DK: Christ your Son

Christus: Christ;
filius: son;
tuus: your (sing.);
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May 8, 2016 8:59am
Nookin

Penny, I note your comment about Key being 100% wrong about his tax responsibilities. Perhaps you could point to the relevant clauses of the agreement that permit, let alone oblige, NZ to divulge information from Cook Islands to any other jurisdiction.
The agreement refers to obligations to provide information to each other on a confidential basis exclusively for the purpose of. Enforcing the domestic laws of each country.
NZ does not and cannot act as the gatherer of information for foreign jurisdictions.

Did you check the agreement before sayng that Key was 100% wrong or was it sufficient for you to accept Winston’s word?

There are some questions that you might like to answer before continuing your bilious and hateful campaign against Key. They are

1. What obligations does any country have to record and disclose income earned overseas by foreigners in overseas tax jurisdictions where that income is not taxable in NZ?
2. Have you considered that it would be much more effctive if disclosure obligations reted on the countries where the income is earned or where the income is taxable? For example, if the USA was concerned about its citizens using Cook Islands as a tax haven, would it not be more effective (I was going to say “illogical” but logic does not appear in your lexicon) if US entered into a double tax and information exchange agreement with the Cook Islands (as it has with NZ)?
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May 8, 2016 9:02am
Maggy Wassilieff

@Ugly truth

This Latin hymn thingee is all too esoteric for me…

I am armed with “White & Riddle’s Latin-English Dictionary” only… At 2102 pages, it is a formidable beast… but I can hardly understand it, as all the examples are in Latin and apart from easy declensions and conjugations, I’m lost.

The two points i would make are (1) translation word for word often doesn’t make sense….. all the words in a sentence have to be taken in some sort of context with adjoining sentences etc.

(2) The first two lines of latin that you gave Flammas……occasum are all one sentence… so I would take it that
lucifer has to mean the same thing on both occasions. A capital L isn’t used… so lucifer is referring to a source of light (poetically Venus, the morning star)

Anyway, the sun is shining and this old atheist is off to weed the garden.
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May 8, 2016 10:18am
UglyTruth

Thanks Maggy.

I agree that context is important, which in this case is a candle which honours a name.
Since the Latin is sung as a hymn there’s no reason to prefer lucifer to Lucifer, you’ve got to consider the context to decide.
“Lord” is a title, not a proper name, the only proper name in the Exsultet is Lucifer.
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May 8, 2016 11:01am

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