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April 24, 2016 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 24 April 2016

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General Debate

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starboard

Come with me stigie and find out…
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April 24, 2016 8:13pm
Shunda barunda

Um, no, that is not the case, or it is not representative of what we know.

And then you provide quotes proving precisely my point.

Who’s side are you on anyway Kimbo? Are you one of these Christians that needs to snuggle up to the elites in the marketplace? Or just another Calvinist looking down on those you suspect of being beyond redemption?
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April 24, 2016 8:15pm
mikenmild

Perhaps he’s not a real Christian, Shunda, if he doesn’t believe what you believe.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman
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April 24, 2016 8:20pm
stigie

“Come with me stigie and find out…”

Would fucking love to but have more pressing things i have to do.
But can i suggest before you go is do all the gardening around the house and right up to the back door ole chap..?
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April 24, 2016 8:23pm
nasska

….”Who’s side are you on anyway Kimbo?”….

Brother against brother!

Very sad. 🙂
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April 24, 2016 8:25pm
nasska

Mind you, for a blood sport, nothing but nothing beats a couple of Godnutters eating each other. 🙂
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April 24, 2016 8:26pm
starboard

With ya stigie…the gardens non maintenance
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April 24, 2016 8:27pm
Shunda barunda

Perhaps he’s not a real Christian, Shunda, if he doesn’t believe what you believe.

And perhaps you are just a bot responding/linking to rational wiki on auto pilot.
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April 24, 2016 8:29pm
Shunda barunda

Mind you, for a blood sport, nothing but nothing beats a couple of Godnutters eating each other.

It just strikes me as odd that Kimbo seems to be challenging me then providing quotes that largely prove the point I was making anyway.

Seems to be speaking out of both sides of his mouth at times.
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April 24, 2016 8:34pm
Nostradamus

Starboard:

It’s definitely not my thing. Like I said, I’ve read some articles recently, and it’s a really sad state of affairs.

I’m on a mobile now, but I’ve found the article I referred to earlier:

http://m.qt.com.au/news/inside-thai-sex-trade/2961591

The sheer hopelessness of the girl featured in the article, who doesn’t know who to trust, made a lasting impression on me. Probably, in part, because I have a daughter who will eventually grow up to have a very different life.
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April 24, 2016 8:35pm
Griff

Liberal Shunda

A right wing one yes but Kimbo is actually a liberal like Jesus was .
He often says not very complementary things about our more shall we say conservative Christians.
And sometimes he argues just for the sake of the mental challenge.
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April 24, 2016 8:45pm
Kimbo

@ Shunda barunda

Um, no, that is not the case, or it is not representative of what we know.

And then you provide quotes proving precisely my point.

Then you weren’t reading them properly. Try again. Remember Paul’s description of who had responded to his message…and who hadn’t? Here, I’ll repeat it again, with appropriate application and commentary to make it clear:

I Corinthians 1: 26
26 Brothers and sisters (that means the Christians of the Greek city of Corinth), think of what you were when you were called.

Not many of you were wise by human standards (i.e., not many were intellectuals or philosophers);

not many were influential; (i.e., not many of them had, among other things, a higher Greek philosophical education).

not many were of noble birth. (i.e, not many of them came from families that could, among other things, a higher Greek philosophical education).

Worse, Paul acknowledges in I Corinthians 1:23 by his use of the term “foolishness to Gentiles” that, in the main his message is incompatible with Greek philosophy and as a result to your assertion at 5:05pm, he was not a “respected intellectual” among the philosophical elite. As shown by his general (albeit not universal) rejection at the Areopagus in Acts 17. Or did you miss the fact no church of note was planted in Athens at the time of his ministry?

Who’s side are you on anyway Kimbo?

He he he. And there we have it! Your argument is really about tribalism!

Are you one of these Christians that needs to snuggle up to the elites in the marketplace?

Er, no, quite the opposite…but you are trying to argue that was the reception Paul received, in spite of the biblical data.

Or just another Calvinist looking down on those you suspect of being beyond redemption?

Um, not only is that not valid Calvinism in either thought or practice, it is I would suggest, projection on your part. After all, you are apparently the guy trying to instruct the pagans, who then gets defensive and hostile when someone points out the biblical data that falsifies your claim…but also implies that in doing so I’m not acting in the interests of our ‘tribe’. Any chance you are now gaining an insight why plenty of pagans, with good reason on occasions, have contempt for the claims of Christians that they are solely interested in truth?

Me? I’m just interested in truth…including when theists start trying to over-egg the pudding. If you don’t challenge it, then – and here’s the thing you don’t seem to have contemplated, let alone applied personally – if the argument is later revealed as specious, the foundations of faith are compromised – especially when it is on the matter of a gospel non-essential about the reception of philosophers to Paul’s mission in Greece. Or don’t you agree that truth is truth and falsehood is falsehood, and bad ideas are bad ideas, no matter who is saying them…even if they think that in some way it furthers the cause of Christ? – actually, in this context more likely your own ego.

Usually I wouldn’t be so…blunt, but, hey, I’m not the one who started the spiritual bitch-slapping, let alone questioning the sincerity of your faith…just some of your arguments.
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April 24, 2016 8:53pm
Shunda barunda

He often says not very complementary things about our more shall we say conservative Christians.
And sometimes he argues just for the sake of the mental challenge.

Firstly, I think “he” may actually be a she.

I have respect for Kimbo’s intellect, but I’m perplexed as to the point of his objection to me in the last post.

I think the evidence is clear that people like the apostle Paul were very familiar with Athens and the prevailing philosophies of the day, He was an intellectual in every sense of the word.

Paul was not nuts, there is no evidence in his writings to suggest he or others like Luke (a man of considerable intellect) had anything but the sharpest of minds.
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April 24, 2016 8:58pm
starboard

Yep its a different world over there Nosty, in every way. Im not blowing my own trumpet but I give away a lot of money to girls/woman when I’m in Thailand..no strings. Ill spend time with them at a sidewalk bar , maybe an hour, talk about their families, their children, their wants and aims in life..then I’ll give them a thousand baht note and kiss on the cheek good bye. The look on their faces is priceless..this guys giving me a thousand baht but doesn’t want anything ?
Now, a thousand baht is around 40 bucks nz..nothing to me but the average thai earns around 300 baht a day doing menial work..so a thousand baht certainly lifts their spirits and gives me a kick as well. I love Thailand, Asia in general..its a fantastic place.
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April 24, 2016 9:00pm
UglyTruth

Paul was not nuts, there is no evidence in his writings to suggest he or others like Luke (a man of considerable intellect) had anything but the sharpest of minds.

And yet he contradicted himself about his appointment as an apostle on the road to Damascus (Acts 9, 22, 26).
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April 24, 2016 9:07pm
Kimbo

@ Shunda barunda

…and tying it back to refute your original mistaken assertions – Christianity stands on its own merits. So too, to the extent that it contains truth from God, does pagan philosophy, including that of the Greeks. Our Western Civilisation was built, among other things on both. Sometimes they agreed. Sometimes they contradicted one another.

But – and please take special note – whether Christianity will play an indispensable part in preserving our society, and if it is rejected wholesale, then things will automatically turn to custard as you have implied, is merely moot.

Put it this way – when it comes to pleading the merits of Christianity and why people should contemplate it, that is not a hand on which I would go “all in”…no matter if it is the pitch and schtick of a number of tedious and over-rated evangelists.

That clarify whose “side” I’m on, Shunda barunda?! And no, it is not just about “speaking out of both sides of his mouth at times”, or “argue(ing) just for the sake of the mental challenge”. “Wherever there is doctrinal misunderstanding you will inevitably have pastoral problems”. And your unwitting defense of the rather over-rated and entirely disposable (from the perspective of the Gospel) arrangement that was Christendom and its remaining vestiges is, IMHO, one of ’em.

But Griff is right – conservative Christians who are foolish, yet also pious and sanctimonious in theor public utterances tend to annoy me the most as they tend to be the most smug…and critically lazy in their thinking, relying on tired and received ideas that don’t stand up to…biblical scrutiny. And seeing as they appeal to the Bible more than any other group, that failing is, IMHO, especially egregious and serious.
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April 24, 2016 9:11pm
Shunda barunda

Usually I wouldn’t be so…blunt, but, hey, I’m not the one who started the spiritual bitch-slapping, let alone questioning the sincerity of your faith…just some of your arguments.

You are not addressing my argument which was that the ancient Greeks and Romans were influenced by a variety of sources including Jewish.

You quoted Acts:

” While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18 A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19 Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20 You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean.” 21 (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)

22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.”

Which if historically accurate proves my point.
There was even a synagogue in Athens.

This statement

“All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.”

Is the essence of my argument that the Greeks were influenced by a variety of ideas and sources not strictly their own.
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April 24, 2016 9:12pm
pentwig

Starboard

You are so right. I commend you. Cheers. Have a good trip mate.
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April 24, 2016 9:14pm
EAD

Starboard,

Your insights gathered from your many visits to Thailand and your running rings around Milkmaid/Stigfly are brilliant.

Keep up the good work champ and enjoy your upcoming trip. Keep us updated.
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April 24, 2016 9:15pm
starboard

Thanks guys..always welcome next tour May 2017 !

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/StickmanWeeklyColumn2015/Thai-Bargirl-Myths.htm

Stickman is a Kiwi…great reading.
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April 24, 2016 9:25pm
Kimbo

@ Shunda barunda

“All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.”

Is the essence of my argument.

No, your argument at 5:05 pm was that,

The ideas and thoughts of the ancient Greeks and Romans were not formed in a vacuum, they were formed with the knowledge and understanding of all philosophies and religions of the known world at the time, including Judaism.
There is a reason the Apostle Paul spent so much time in Greece, he was a respected intellectual and debated with the Greeks extensively, as was the common practice of the day. Greece and Rome became a very fertile missionary field for this reason.

Not so! The influence of Judaism upon Greek philosophy was minimal. And I note you give no specific examples. The other way? Absolutely! The translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, the writings of the likes of Philo of Alexandria, the readiness of the Apostle Paul to quote, on occasion, Greek poets – yes. And the early Christian missionaries, free from the need to circumcise Gentiles and impose on them many of the laws of Moses exploited this.

But other than Judaism being yet another of many Near Eastern religions and cults that were a pick-and mix eclectic option for Greek philosophers (as per the quote from Acts 17:21 you have lifted,(“All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)”, there was little or any discernible influence of Judaism on the likes of Platonic, Aristotelian, Epicurean or Stoic thought. Indeed, a problem for the church for many Centuries, and one that also spread into Islam, was getting Platonism out of their thought and spirituality. I’d argue Islam, with its fussiness and distrust of spirituality that has to be lived in bodies that menstruate, ejaculate, get dirty and experience sexual temptation remains irredeemably Platonic. Just as Catholicism remains irredeemable and unashamedly Aristotelian.

But if you can give me specific ideas from Judaism that clearly and directly influenced Greek philosophy – as distinct from similar concepts and vocabulary that developed independently, I’m all ears to your correction. Over to you…
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April 24, 2016 9:29pm
Captain Mainwaring

So Duncan Garner is getting death threats because he made a call to ban pitbulls.
What more do we need to know about the ferals who are in love with these killer dogs?
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April 24, 2016 9:34pm
mikenmild

pentwig and EAD come to life to confess their man-crushes for starboard.
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April 24, 2016 9:38pm
Shunda barunda

“But if you can give me specific ideas from Judaism that clearly and directly influenced Greek philosophy – as distinct from similar concepts and vocabulary that developed independently, I’m all ears to your correction. Over to you…”

I’ll let Sigmund Freud answer that:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/magazine/09wwln-lede-t.html?_r=0

An excerpt:

“But there’s more to Freud’s take on religion than that. In his last book, written when he was old and ill, suffering badly from cancer of the jaw, Freud offers another perspective on faith. He argues that Judaism helped free humanity from bondage to the immediate empirical world, opening up fresh possibilities for human thought and action. He also suggests that faith in God facilitated a turn toward the life within, helping to make a rich life of introspection possible.”
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April 24, 2016 9:39pm
starboard

Go to bed mm..mammas waiting , mumbling something about spooning
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April 24, 2016 9:45pm
mikenmild

I’m just admiring your ability to attract such high-quality fans.
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April 24, 2016 9:47pm
pentwig

The fool milkmaid displays his inept intelligence once again.
Sadly a recurring occurrence.
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April 24, 2016 9:49pm
starboard

Overheard at mm’s house recently…

” Michael..get the fuck in here ‘ffaarrt’..Mum needs some lovin ‘ffaarrt’..and do a better job this time ya lousy bum “
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April 24, 2016 9:54pm
Kimbo

@ Shunda barunda

“But if you can give me specific ideas from Judaism that clearly and directly influenced Greek philosophy – as distinct from similar concepts and vocabulary that developed independently, I’m all ears to your correction. Over to you…”

I’ll let Sigmund Freud answer that:

An excerpt:

“But there’s more to Freud’s take on religion than that. In his last book, written when he was old and ill, suffering badly from cancer of the jaw, Freud offers another perspective on faith. He argues that Judaism helped free humanity from bondage to the immediate empirical world, opening up fresh possibilities for human thought and action. He also suggests that faith in God facilitated a turn toward the life within, helping to make a rich life of introspection possible.”

How does that prove any direct influence of Judaism on Greek thought?! You seem to be adopting the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Because both Judaism and Greek though influenced what later emerged as Western Civilisation/Christendom…therefore they both must have influenced one another beforehand…and you are misappropriating Freud to do so. And also remaining…non-specific.

Here, I’ll make it even more clear for you…what specify philosophy, idea or term used by the Greeks just prior to the ministry of Paul was specifically and directly from Judaism – as distinct from developing separately, coincidentally and/or contemporaneously.
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April 24, 2016 9:55pm
Kimbo

@ Shunda barunda

…and that has been verified in archaeology, rather than based on “Freud speculates…and suggests”! Because, you know, if someone claimed that the tablets delivered to Moses were really sourced from aliens, conservative Christians – including me – would be skeptical in the absence of that sort of evidence.
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April 24, 2016 10:03pm
Shunda barunda

Here, I’ll make it even more clear for you…what specify philosophy, idea or term used by the Greeks just prior to the ministry of Paul was specifically and directly from Judaism – as distinct from developing separately, coincidentally and/or contemporaneously.

I’ll make my point again, the evidence we have is that the Greeks/ Romans were collectors of ideas, traditions, religions, – whatever from the entire known world of that era.

That fact is not in dispute.

Now as far as a specific example? I don’t have one because I am not a scholar on ancient Greece.

I think you are being disingenuous now, or are you seriously trying to tell me that you really believe that Greek philosophers were unaware of Judaism and had never investigated it in any detail?

There was a synagogue in Athens for goodness sake.

There was obviously a cross over of ideas and philosophy.
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April 24, 2016 10:11pm
Kimbo

I’ll make my point again, the evidence we have is that the Greeks/ Romans were collectors of ideas, traditions, religions, – whatever from the entire known world of that era.

That fact is not in dispute.

Yeeeessss. With you so far…

I think you are being disingenuous now, or are you seriously trying to tell me that you really believe that Greek philosophers were unaware of Judaism and had never investigated it in any detail?

There was a synagogue in Athens for goodness sake.

None of which proves abiding and significant Jewish influence on Greek and Roman thought.

There was obviously a cross over of ideas and philosophy.

And there’s the non-sequitur! Or at least it is when it comes to Judaism influencing Greek philosophy.

And, despite my repeated request, you’ve failed to give a single instance of a specific “philosophy, idea or term” that demonstrates it and papered over the cracks with the use of “obviously. If it was so “obvious”, you’d have “obviously” have no problems giving an example from the many that should be available instead of…assuming.

Put it this way – there is plenty of examples one can give, courtesy of the likes of Philo, where Greek though influenced Judaism and their understanding of their Scriptures. I don’t dispute there must have been some contact between the two groups, especially in the Diaspora communities that developed…after the spread of the Greek, and then Roman Empires (although crucially, the likes of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle lived and taught before then). But there is no evidence I am aware of that, as per your claim, Judaism influenced Greek thought especially its philosophy in any abiding or significant way before the spread of Christianity and then when it went “mainstream” in the 4th and 5th Centuries AD.

But here’s one belief Judaism didn’t influence the Greeks on – and as Paul found out on Areopagus it is an important (albeit relatively late-developing from the time of the Babylonian captivity in the 6th Century BC) Jewish doctrine – the resurrection of the dead. The rejection Paul experienced wasn’t so much the anti-supernaturalism of today, but more, courtesy of the influence Plato’s successors, the idea that physical embodiment was viewed as sub-spiritual and not optimal. It is the same cultural reason the Greek congregation in Corinth were rejecting the teaching of the resurrection…and hence why Paul reiterates in his longest chapter in the letter, which begins

I Corinthians 15: 1-2

Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
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April 24, 2016 10:29pm
Tauhei Notts

Shunda Barunda at 9.12 quoted some bloke as saying;
“People of Athens – I see that in every way you are very religious.”
That poor sod had not spent any time around the cess pits near Omonia Square.
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April 24, 2016 10:45pm
polemic

So the debate has strayed into Judeo / Christian /Greek philosophy.

Does anyone have some facts that they could bring to the debate re these so called claims about the EB because the claims seem totally classic whinges from complainers that have left them…
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April 24, 2016 11:18pm
Griff

pentwig (404 comments) says:
April 24th, 2016 at 9:14 pm

Starboard

You are so right. I commend you. Cheers. Have a good trip mate.
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EAD (3,581 comments) says:
April 24th, 2016 at 9:15 pm

Starboard,

Your insights gathered from your many visits to Thailand and your running rings around Milkmaid/Stigfly are brilliant.

Keep up the good work champ and enjoy your upcoming trip. Keep us updated.
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starboard (4,608 comments) says:
April 24th, 2016 at 9:25 pm

Thanks guys..always welcome next tour May 2017 !

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/StickmanWeeklyColumn2015/Thai-Bargirl-Myths.htm

Stickman is a Kiwi…great reading.

Lick lick
You are so right……thanks for agreeing .
Also know as sycophantic circle jerking
By three who strongly look like they have done it before.
We have seen this behavior in the past.
Except once one of them would have been redtwit.
Funny ….EH
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April 24, 2016 11:21pm
Dead Earnest

EBs have stuck a rebuttal on their website. Provides a bit of context Polemic. http://www.plymouthbrethrenchristianchurch.org/pbcc-response-to-nz-sunday-star-times24-04-16/!
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April 24, 2016 11:33pm
Griff

The brethren web site

Mytton’s research is based on just a 0.03% of the church members in NZ and relies on a sample of respondents skewed by self-selection.

The story in the press
found 18 of 44 participants claimed they had been sexually abused as children.

Do the maths guys.
Don’t add up there are not 146,666 kiwi brethren alive.

Of course it is self selecting.
Your members would be horrified to step outside the church for anything
In fact your cult banns such interaction on threat of excommunication.
Only those who have already left would think of replies to such a questioner.

It is apparent you are from the church doing a little pr to damage control the story.
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April 25, 2016 12:27am
Manolo

No quarter given:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3555600/Boris-rage-ridiculous-weird-Obama-Extraordinary-statement-MoS-mocks-President-trade-threats.html
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April 25, 2016 6:31am
Dead Earnest

Congratulations Griff. You have outed me as a closet EB. Very flattered. Just not sure if they will take to me hairstyle and dress code!
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April 25, 2016 7:00am
Griff

Why else would any one support a closed cult of fringe loons ?
By the way I do know an ex cult member.
Who left after spending her childhood getting the fuck beaten out of her .
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April 25, 2016 7:05am
Manolo

Winning delegates by stealth:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/04/24/cruz-stays-in-republican-presidential-fight-by-quietly-scoring-delegates.html?intcmp=hpbt1
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April 25, 2016 7:45am

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