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March 24, 2016 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 24 March 2016

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General Debate

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Griff

And to those who ask what I think about Maori crime/prison stats, child abuse, unemployment? I could suggest we treat every case as an individual. Not one shoe size fits all. Problem is, that’s gonna cost money.

First step own it.
It is unfortunately a facet of Maori culture .
How that came about is an interesting question .
But that it is is undeniable.
Until maoridom stands up and owns its problems and places them firmly and honestly into the light there will be no change no matter how much we spend on it .
Blaming it all on the colonial excesses of whitey only produces more distance between “us and them” and encourages the problem.
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March 24, 2016 3:52pm
blazeoflight

@Griff

It is unfortunately a facet of Maori culture .

Massive fail, old son. Stereotyping simply demonstrates racism or ignorance, the latter slightly more forgivable than the former.

Stick to climate change.
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March 24, 2016 4:06pm
All_on_Red

“here’s a place where I belong, that I can return to, that I feel connected to. I choose to pass that sense of identity to my own offspring as I hope they do to theirs.”

Any fourth, fifth or sixth generation Kiwi who isn’t Maori probably feels the same way. And there is plenty of those. Sorry, but Maoris relationship with the land in NZ isn’t unique to them. There are many others who have been here long enough to have that too.
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March 24, 2016 4:19pm
Northland Wahine

How does Maoridom, “own it” Griff?

I tell you how I “own” Maori stats. I taught my sons they have to hold themselves to a higher standard, because they will be automatically profiled by the Police, even tho fair, living in South Auckland.

Keep under the speed limit, don’t drive around with your hoodie up when it’s cold, or dark sunglasses on a sunny day. Make sure your car is warranted and regoed. Regardless of what newspapers tell you. You will get fined.

My older sons as teens, they were discouraged to walk too far from home, because they looked “dodgy” and were often pulled aside by Police. As men, if they even think about raising their hands in anger to their partners, I’ll be marching them to the police station myself. And they wouldn’t even make it to the police station if my moko are ever beaten. I’m not talking about being disciplined… Beaten.. Be respectful to all, especially those who are disrespectful to you. They got a lot of that. From school teachers (had to explain what a Maori day off recently to my young son). And if you didn’t pay for it, and someone else did? Keep your sticky mittens off. Coz it ain’t yours.

Surprisingly, I’m not uncommon. There are many parents, Maori or not, who have raised and continue to raise their children the same way.

Do other nationalities feel responsible for the crimes and behaviour of the same ethnic group? Or is it reserved for we “special people”.
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March 24, 2016 4:27pm
Shawn Herles

ISIS Takes the Capital of the European Union: ISIS doesn’t have to invade Brussels. It just has to take a short drive.

” The European Union was first brought into being to “safeguard” world peace. Today, the employees of the EU in Brussels were told to cower in fear in their government buildings while Islamic Jihadists once again terrorized this city whose population is already nearly a quarter Muslim.

Practicing Muslims outnumber practicing Christians in Brussels. After a search for Islamic terrorists had shut down the city, its Socialist mayor complained, “We will not live under the Islamic regime.”

But it’s too late for that. He already is. There are 300,000 Muslims in the capital of the European Union. It’s estimated that they will become the majority of the population in 14 years.

Brussels is the first outpost of ISIS in Europe. It is a doomed city that will be lost to Islam within our lifetimes. A Muslim terrorist attack in Brussels is as surprising as a car bombing in Baghdad.”

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/262258/isis-takes-capital-european-union-daniel-greenfield
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March 24, 2016 4:29pm
Griff

Massive fail, old son. Stereotyping simply demonstrates racism or ignorance, the latter slightly more forgivable than the former.

Facts matey are not racist they just are.

Despite making up less than 14% of the population
Around 55 per cent of substantiated child abuse cases are in Maori families.
Make up 50% of our prison population.
Massively over represented in welfare statistics.
Many who have maori blood and do well dont identify as maori.
The more they self identify as maori the more likely they are representative in the negative statistics.
It is purely a cultural problem not one of race.

A culture is a way of life of a group of people–the behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next.

Racism is the belief that a particular race is superior or inferior to another, that a person’s social and moral traits are predetermined by his or her inborn biological characteristics.

I dont blame maori statistics on race .
On blame them on culture.
Calling me racist is bullshit and part of the problem.
Until maori own and seek to change the parts of their culture that produce horrifying statistic they will not improve themselves.
We can not do it for them .
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March 24, 2016 4:30pm
Northland Wahine

All on red.. You forgot the first part of that sentence… For me…there’s a place… Not just any place, my whenua. And I’m well aware there are other kiwi whose family have an affiliation with a piece of land that goes back many generations and they will appreciate that sentiment. They are free to attach whatever feeling they wish to it, as I am.
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March 24, 2016 4:46pm
Northland Wahine

Griff, have you ever considered those ugly statistics aren’t part of Maori culture but are associated with Maori and its culture, for other reasons?

Just a thought. And before you negate the reasoning, consider this. I have no choice but consider the reasoning you present because Maori have it thrown in their faces every day.
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March 24, 2016 4:50pm
UglyTruth

“the employees of the EU in Brussels were told to cower in fear in their government buildings while Islamic Jihadists once again terrorized this city”

The usual slander from the usual suspects. Jihad doesn’t include targeting the innocent.
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March 24, 2016 5:04pm
blazeoflight

May I remind Griff that those stats are common to all indigenous people who have had their land colonised and never been restored to their own ownership. They are an outcome of colonisation, not innate to Maori or any indigenous people.

Dispossession is enormously detrimental to the welfare of the dispossessed, and made even worse by a century and a half of extant institutionalised racism.

Much of the argument presented by Michelle Alexander in her book “The New Jim Crow” equally applies to many conquered (or in the case of NZ, swamped) indigenous (or first) peoples.
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March 24, 2016 5:07pm
starboard

Well said Griff.
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March 24, 2016 5:51pm
Inandout

Northland Wahine: Just accept your culture, with all its faults. My bloodline includes Scots, Irish, English,German in the main, and God knows what else, but I just can’t get offended or make excuses whenever someone from those races make the headlines. My genetic mix has given me business acumen and a desire to make the most out of life, and a liking for Celtic history. Most Maori are a potpourri of bloodlines anyway.
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March 24, 2016 6:13pm
Jack5

Another revision of history, and we taxpayers will be financing this. A teacher writes the history that is to be drummed into NZ kids. Who did she talk to?

Taking inspiration and insight from the work of historians Dr Ranginui Walker, Michael King, and Professor James Belich, along with University of Auckland academics Professor Anne Salmond and Professor Alison Jones, she developed the six book series.

More Politically Correct crap, PC crap that’s going to be force fed to our young.

The sooner we get more charter schools and more choice for parents the better. To hell with the Teachers’ Union and revisionist history based partly on oral tribal hearsay.

Note the PC revisionists have produced idiots like the late learner and Kiwiblog poster Blaze of Blight. He’s living, gibbering proof of the damage these pseudo-intellectual poseurs can create.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11611357
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March 24, 2016 6:23pm
Northland Wahine

I agree Inandout. And I embrace my culture. Warts and all. I also accept Maori statistically are over represented in crime, prison, benefits. I don’t accept it as being part Maori culture.
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March 24, 2016 6:26pm
starboard

I’ll shut my mouth about the continual dysfunction of Maori until they prove otherwise. They need to earn respect from their fellow New Zealanders first, stop killing and abusing their children in disproportionate numbers for a start, and start living with us.
Fuck this ” our people ” crap. We know you are not white. We know you are not the same as us and vise versa. But we all have one thing in common. We ALL live here and this is OUR home. Move forward..move on..put your hand out only to shake mine.
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March 24, 2016 6:40pm
renderer

Police are investigating a complaint that Whanganui MP Chester Borrows drove his car into an anti-TPP protester.

The complaint relates to an incident on Tuesday morning as Mr Borrows and Minister Paula Bennett left a breakfast meeting in Whanganui.

The police said in a statement that one protester received

If you put yourself in harms way you run the risk of being hurt
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March 24, 2016 6:41pm
blazeoflight

@Griff

You are just digging a hole, my friend.

Although we retain the word racism, it doesn’t now mean what it used to because ‘race’ is now understood as a misnomer for ethnicity. And culture and ethnicity are inseparable, unless a person is immersed in a different culture such that his or her ethnic identity no longer applies, but we are not talking about that extreme case, are we?

So by blaming culture, your are blaming ethnicity, that’s stereotyping and that is racist.

Do you remember the ‘warrior gene’ theory. This was popular until geneticists called bullshit on that fantasy.

You may not like that the evils of colonialism are long lasting and incredibly detrimental to the colonised, but that doesn’t change the truth.
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March 24, 2016 6:41pm
blazeoflight

@renderer

So if you cross the road outside the safety of a pedestrian crossing, you should be run over? Or just shot in self defense?

Do you understand there is no defense of provocation any more?
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March 24, 2016 6:43pm
RF

Interesting that some posters over on the standard are comparing Saint Helen with what they call shonky JK. This is utter bull shit. They forget that Clark was very devious female dog….. i.e. Did not know her car was speeding in the motorcade, signed a picture claiming it was hers, had Mallard blocking Owen Glenn from getting near her at a function. There are others….

Again its attack John Key and hopefully this will bring national down. I guess with names like warbler, weka, bubba, fruitcake, the posters over there do not go out outside very often.
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March 24, 2016 6:44pm
Griff

I don’t accept it as being part Maori culture.

A culture is a way of life of a group of people……
Stealing drugs violence welfare is part of the culture of a subset of maori .
As Allan Duff has been saying since exposing it in Once Were Warriors .
own it until you do it will not change .
An example.
The disrespect paid key recently at Waitangi.
His is the paramount chief of the entire country .
Trampling on his Mana is a totally unacceptable thing to do by maori protocol .
Those who behaved like they did should have been firmly removed from any level of influence .It is up to maori to do this among themselves .
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March 24, 2016 6:44pm
rangitoto

RF – what do they think about Saint Helen supporting the TPP.
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March 24, 2016 6:49pm
renderer

No Blaze I am saying that if you cross the road outside a pedestrian crossing you increase the risk of getting hurt. There is a difference
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March 24, 2016 6:52pm
blazeoflight

Griff

Alan Duff actually did a huge disservice to his own people with that book. It was a work of fiction that has since been imbued with the primateur of historical fact.

Duff could have made his story about a white family (mine gives Jake’s a run for his money) but it wouldn’t have sold so well in a deeply racist country. After all, it just so fits the prejudiced view we have about those uppity natives, anyway, right?

And Key is not a chief. he is a transient holder of political office.
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March 24, 2016 6:53pm
blazeoflight

@renderer

So long as there is nothing deliberate in the victim being hurt, right?

If Borrows is seen, for example, to have had intent to hurt, how would you view that episode then?
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March 24, 2016 6:55pm
renderer

Blaze for every incident there is a root cause. In this case several people stood in front of a car to block its path. This is patently a bloody stupid thing to do.
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March 24, 2016 6:59pm
Stars And Stripes

Blaze – there is a video of the incident involving Chester Burrows and it is a lot of nonsense just being stirred up by some no hopers including Mr Bear to just try and get some headlines.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11611165
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March 24, 2016 6:59pm
starboard

You’re full of shit Blaze of shit. Apologist for maori. Truly sickening. Which bandwagon are you on? Which public tit ? Revolting.
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March 24, 2016 7:00pm
Griff

It was a work of fiction that has since been imbued with the primateur of historical fact.

What world do you live in?
I could start with a few examples I have seen with my own eyes , tell you some of the horrific shit my partner deals with daily or give you story’s about some of the kids my extended family fosters.
Get fucken real mate.
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March 24, 2016 7:03pm
RF

rangitoto. 6.49pm. The standard is in full denial about anything Helen may have crossed the line with. According to them she never supported the TPP and if she did it was misinformation by National. These idiots are foundation members of the flat earth society.
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March 24, 2016 7:16pm
blazeoflight

@Griff

My point is that the story can apply equally to white families. And that Duff reinforced racism.

But if you can’t recognise the dramatisation techniques that makes fiction so accessible, then perhaps you should work on your discernment abilities.
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March 24, 2016 7:21pm
mikenmild

Jack5 must be particularly upset with this volume of ‘Politically Correct crap, PC crap that’s going to be force fed to our young’:

British Isles, covers European history from the Celts in 50BC through the centuries including the Magna Carta and the history of Abel Tasman and James Cook and the rise in European immigration.
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March 24, 2016 7:21pm
blazeoflight

@renderer

It’s called protest.

The penalty for protesting is not physical harm.

You seem to be supporting a particular version of vigilante justice. Do I have that right?
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March 24, 2016 7:22pm
blazeoflight

@Starboard

I think the apologies are running the other way.

Do you ever wonder why that is?
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March 24, 2016 7:26pm
blazeoflight

This is so funny, courtesy of RNZ:

Mr Borrows said everyone had a right to protest, but he did feel quite threatened by the protesters’ behaviour

So an ex-cop, a cop in a tough area, felt threatened by a small motley crew of protestors even as he, Borrows, was flanked by sturdy current, uniformed cops.

?????????????

Methinks he doth protest too much…(pun intended).
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March 24, 2016 7:34pm
renderer

Blaze. If i stand in a rail tunnel because I dont like trains I run the risk of getting hurt. People have to be responsible for thier actions.
Are you from the school of thought, that every woe that becomes you is someone elses fault?
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March 24, 2016 7:35pm
starboard

Brainless unemployed smelly rabble places itself in front of moving object. Moving object taps smelly unkempt rabble, smelly rabble throws hollywood and complains was run over. Gets prime time news coverage ( and ACC )

Plod should have been there and battoned the unkempt smelly until unconscious..dragged carcus to plod wagon and back to plod station for waterboarding.
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March 24, 2016 7:39pm
starboard

..and I can quite comfortably suggest we know the race of this offender..

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/78228082/person-shot-by-police-in-whanganui
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March 24, 2016 7:52pm
Northland Wahine

Griff, it’s the culture of some people that happen to be Maori. I’m not gonna deny that. I see it too, daily, in my job, in my family.

I am Maori, and it’s not MY culture. It’s not the life I chose.

And Starboard, I come from a dysfunctional family. My mother is Maori and I will never paint her as a saint. We ended up in care when I was 10 and she had already before that time. I wasn’t beaten or abused by a Maori. I certainly was by pakeha, men and women. I don’t hold all pakeha responsible for what was done to me. I raised sons that have never been arrested or received a benefit. They don’t beat their women or children and they respect their mother. So, I’ll shake your hand, if you care to hold it out. And I like to think I have moved on. I just don’t forget…
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March 24, 2016 7:57pm
starboard

Consider your hand shaken NW..and I will even chuck in a hug.
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March 24, 2016 8:00pm
Griff

My point is that the story can apply equally to white families. And that Duff reinforced racism.

But if you can’t recognise the dramatisation techniques that makes fiction so accessible, then perhaps you should work on your discernment abilities.

I dont need to see dramatization effects I have seen it real live in glorious realty as well as seen the resulting harm it does.
Spent years living in South Auckland and Worked as a factory foreman there .Used to drink and socialize at some heavy pubs. Seen lots of OWW behavior.

Three households in my extended family foster for cyf. The work load is mostly maori kids.My nephew is adopted from a dysfunctional maori family .
My partner works in counseling the damaged results of the violence and sexual assaults . My sister works in special needs ed in south Auckland. I can not disclose specifics of the stuff they offload on me . It makes you cry for the totally revolting shit they have to deal with.They both say most of the workload is maori.

Saying whitey does it to avoids examining the issue.
Maori do it far far more.
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March 24, 2016 8:02pm
Griff

I am Maori, and it’s not MY culture. It’s not the life I chose.
I dont think it is NW.
In fact from your comments over the years I have respect for who you are.
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March 24, 2016 8:04pm
Odakyu-sen

Question.

What is the difference between “race,” “ethnicity,” “culture” and “values”? (Seriously.)

I think some people here use “ethnicity” as a blend of the concepts of “race” and “culture.”

I prefer to draw a line between genetic, inherited, hard-wired qualities on one hand, and learned ones on the other.
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March 24, 2016 8:06pm
Northland Wahine

Back at ya starboard…

And Griff, I can relate to the stories that you hear. But ask your partner where the highest reports of reported domestic violence are in Auckland. It’s in the East. It could be that it’s being reported more and that its so rife in South Auckland they don’t bother. But I wouldn’t like to put money on it.
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March 24, 2016 8:11pm
Griff

It could be that it’s being reported more and that its so rife in South Auckland they don’t bother. But I wouldn’t like to put money on it.

She worked in east Auckland and north shore before moving south.
First world problems she says with a laugh.
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March 24, 2016 8:22pm
Awww C-mon

I think you raise an interesting point Odakyu-sen, When we look at the negative stats that Maori are over-represented in it seems to me to more of a socio-economic issue.

There is a sub-culture in NZ that are anti-social and criminal, they come from different race’s and ethnicities but their behaviour is the same.

The reverse is there is some very successful NZer’s who have done well with what they have, from all race’s and ethnicities.

You can share a common history (is that culture?) but have very different values and lifestyles. different outcomes.

Hopefully someone else smarter than me will answer….

Bugger about the flag 🙂
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March 24, 2016 8:29pm
starboard

Fantastic !!!! We keep the flag !! Bonza mate
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March 24, 2016 8:34pm
rangitoto

The pommie duster stays as the official flag. If the pommes changed their flag, I would be happy to keep the jack version of the old union flag on ours – just for the historical connection but not keen on having the flag of a country that treats us as alien scum on ours.
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March 24, 2016 8:47pm
Captain Mainwaring

So the flag result is now official, and it once again proves that NZ is a change-averse, timid little nation afraid to face a future without bully Britain.
Aided and abetted by Key Derangement Syndrome.
But never mind, we’ll eventually get over it.
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March 24, 2016 8:48pm
stephieboy

starboard , and comfortably guess the race of this offender ? ,

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/timeline/13/11
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March 24, 2016 9:00pm
starboard

white..whats your point..
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March 24, 2016 9:32pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@Odakyu-sen

Race is the only biological term in your list. It refers to some inheritable feature(s) that permit subgrouping within a species…..Race can be used interchangeably with subspecies/variety….. Races can be found in all types of organisms (e.g. red delicious/ granny smith are two races (varieties) of apple; Brothers Island tuatara are a distinct race of tuatara).

The other terms (ethnicity, culture and values) are social constructs and only apply to human societies/populations.

What interests me is what other folks mean when they talk of human races. I suspect you are correct in that most folks conflate race with ethnicity (nationality & culture),

If I describe myself as a New Zealander… what does that conjure up?
If I tick Caucasian in a census box, what does that mean? (I imagine my ancestors last trod on Caucasus soil 5000 yrs ago, at least)
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March 24, 2016 9:36pm
AgentBallSack

Have the Bangladeshis learned how to match fix?
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March 24, 2016 9:39pm
Odakyu-sen

People who want “diversity” in society or have a desire to “knock whitey down a peg” cannot cope with the notion that races become diluted and cultures become extinct over time.

Think back to the 1870s, some of you. Your great-great-grandfather may have been a sadler or farm worker. Today, his craft and culture is pretty much extinct. The language that he used would be very different to your’s today. His attitudes and values may also have been very different to yours.

Although your ancestors’ culture is no more, and your race may also be changing (through intermarriage), you can still think of yourself as a modern man and a functioning member of the nation of New Zealand. If it’s good enough for the “Pakeha” to undergo such as change, then it’s also good enough for “Maori” to do the same. (More so, even.)

In this way, we are becoming “one people”.

It really doesn’t help when people of certain political views talk of “colonial legacy” and “their people.” Such sentiments are obsolete in this modern age.
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March 24, 2016 9:41pm
stephieboy

starboard, you are fond of making assumptions of a racist kind , David Gray serves to remind that horrendous crimes are not a monopoly of the darker races as I believe you’d might like to think !
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March 24, 2016 9:42pm
AgentBallSack

No no Odakyu-Sen. The Taniwha still has to be fed.
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March 24, 2016 9:44pm
Griff

and only apply to human societies/populations.

http://wildwhales.org/killer-whale/

There are three types of killer whales that live in the waters off the coast of western North America. These three assemblages have distinct differences in their diet, range, behaviour and social systems.

Neanderthals
http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/anthropology/science-neanderthal-genes-modern-human-dna-01734.html
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v531/n7595/full/nature17405.html

http://www.inforum.com/letters/3981340-letter-more-fun-facts-neanderthal-gene
If you doubt that you might have some inner caveman lurking in your ancient history, here’s some more shocking news: The genetic mutation responsible for red hair goes back more than 40,000 years to – you guessed it – those pesky Neanderthals. If you’re a ginger, well … better grab a club.
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March 24, 2016 9:47pm
Odakyu-sen

AgentBallSack

I know how to find a taniwha.

Simply follow the money.
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March 24, 2016 9:49pm
Don the Kiwi

Happy to see the flag we have has been kept.

I am not totally averse to a change of flag, but I did not like the Lockwood designs, and wasn’t particularly impressed with any of them – least of all the horrible Red Peak nightmare.
I think the Fern on his flags are much too big, and the black is not a good colour – the red was better. Just because black is a colour identified with NZ an our All Blacks etc doesn’t mean it can have the same impact on a national flag.

I disagree that JK was the cause of the NO vote, but it did rather rankle me that he appeared to be its major promoter, but that didn’t influence my decision. Also all the adverts promoting the new flag and change with celebs doing it left me rather cold – it showed a bias by the committee and government.

I also disagree that the Union Jack is a symbol of colonialism – it was the choice of the Maori cheifs at Waitangi in 1840 to seek the protection of th British crown and the British justice that went with it, so it is a symbol of their desire to join in with Britain. Also, it is a symbol of the peoples that were the main implementors of development and progress – in those days, Britain led the world in economy, industry and militarily – the old Maori chiefs were a wsie and shrewd bunch.
The Union Jack is also a Christian symbol, and despite what the progressives and atheists say, NZ was founded as a Christian country with the British law based on Judaeo-Christian ethics and principles – the union jack is a combination of the Crosses – Christian symbol – of St. George, St. Andrew, St. Patrick and St. David for England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales.
It points to our past, a past the Maori were happy to embrace, and where we are now as a people.

Having said all that, I think NZ will become a republic one day and remain in the British Commonwealth; we may even combine with Australia, which I think would be a good thing. And then it would be logical to have a new flag.

I didn’t submit a design, but I reckon I could have done better than the Lockwood designs. 🙂
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March 24, 2016 9:53pm
RF

Griff. 8.04pm.

OK sounds good but what happens when we open the paper in the morning to read about another Maori offender committing a heinous crime.

I along with good Maori mates are so tired of reading about the Maori crime wave that just goes on and on. Christ there is a Maori up on charges for raping his partner who had just given birth. A fucken animal would not do this.

As long as we make excuses for these filthy scum we will not progress.
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March 24, 2016 10:02pm
Griff

RF the first line was NW’s I was replying to and I did not bother block quoting it .
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March 24, 2016 10:07pm
RF

Griff.

I stand corrected. I get so frustrated with the once were Warriors gene that appears to be worn as a badge of honour. How many Maori babies do we have to bury before the rich Maori fat cats start putting their exorbitant Govt payments towards their kin.
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March 24, 2016 10:12pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@Griff 9:47pm

re killer whale social systems.

oh gosh, did I overlook the poor ethologists….. studying the moral conflicts in bee hives?

Sure animals have social systems….. but it is a human construct on how we interpret/classify their social structures and communual behaviours.
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March 24, 2016 10:19pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@Griff

Happy Easter…..
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/mysterious-chimpanzee-behaviour-could-be-sacred-rituals-and-show-that-chimps-believe-in-god-a6911301.html
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March 24, 2016 10:22pm
Griff

I think we are singing from the same hymn book
You of course have been at the coal face and dealt with the dysfunctional culture as a job .
I have been saying all day the change needs to come from within Maoridoms leadership.
Instead they are encouraging it with the focus on separatism and grievance..
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March 24, 2016 10:24pm
UglyTruth

it was the choice of the Maori cheifs at Waitangi in 1840 to seek the protection of th British crown and the British justice that went with it, so it is a symbol of their desire to join in with Britain.

Not really, it had its form and its meaning before the chiefs sought protection.

The Union Jack is also a Christian symbol, and despite what the progressives and atheists say, NZ was founded as a Christian country with the British law based on Judaeo-Christian ethics and principles – the union jack is a combination of the Crosses – Christian symbol – of St. George, St. Andrew, St. Patrick and St. David for England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales.

The Union Jack is a double cross, which has a different meaning to the single cross of Christianity. Literally the meaning is betrayal.

While it’s true that the law of the English settlers was based on Judaeo-Christian ethics and principles, there is more to Christianity than a system of ethics, so it’s not really accurate to say that the country was founded as Christian.
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March 24, 2016 10:28pm
blazeoflight

@Griff

Maori do it far far more.

Nah. We Whiteys just get away with it more, even these days.

If you look Maori, you cannot even begin to imagine the privilege our skin colour grants us.

I know because I also have spent my life in Sth Auckland manufacturing outfits and actually talked to the guys, Maori, PI, Asian…

That’s how I grew to appreciate the privilege my whiteness bestows upon me.
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March 24, 2016 10:32pm
blazeoflight

I have been saying all day the change needs to come from within Maoridoms leadership.

Of course Maori leadership has a role, but basically you have been wrong all day.
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March 24, 2016 10:35pm
Griff

but it is a human construct on how we interpret/classify their social structures and communual behaviours.

We construct ways to examine the world .
The world we examine still exists independent of us examining it.
Whales have norms of social interaction with distinct cultural differences within genetically identical groups.
Human have some interesting differences in genetics between the different races that could be reflected in the differences in their cultural norms .
The exploration of such ideas should not be taboo.
Exploration of such differences does not have to lead to echoing the conclusions of Aryan superiority in Nazi ideology. Racial difference is not necessarily implying racially superiority or inferiority.

Understanding such differences may help us to become a more inclusive society.
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March 24, 2016 10:57pm
Griff

blazeoflight
and actually talked to the guys, Maori, PI, Asian…

You have talked with them?
smacks of the old I have …. friends
I have lived with “them” partied with “them” even slept with “them” .
Then they are no longer “them” they become us.

Maori has a culture that is self destructive. Part of maori problem is not belonging in the world they find themselves in. . We can not go back to the pre 1800 world and no maori in his right mind would want to. It is up to Maori to join the world we have now or they will always be on the margins and pay the penalty for that .
Maori society is broken it is up to them to fix it . Having a culture that focuses on whitey owes you and demanding rights that go far beyond equality is never going to make for an inclusive society.
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March 24, 2016 11:22pm
starboard

Im picking Blaze of shite is Black with a Vengance..
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March 25, 2016 6:35am

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