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January 28, 2016 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 28 January 2015

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Fletch

Apparently, One News sports presenter Jenny-May was trolled over showing her baby bump at the end of last year. I don’t really watch the news much, but I have to say, she looked pretty awful tonight in that red thing. Couldn’t they find something that looks/fits a bit better?
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January 28, 2016 6:51pm
Griff

shows they are not a bunch of unsophisticated rubes……
To right kimbo that description fits the target audience not the propagators of the legend of Bejesus.
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January 28, 2016 6:56pm
wikiriwhis business

http://robinwestenra.blogspot.co.nz/2016/01/protest-against-signing-tppa-is-growing.html?spref=fb

Protest against signing the TPPA is growing in New Zealand
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January 28, 2016 6:57pm
nasska

Captain Mainwaring at 6:33 pm opines:

…..” uphill vs. downhill outranks north vs. south every time”…..

But if you join Penny’s wretched band of misfits & soap dodgers the only direction you’ll be heading in is down the toilet. 🙂
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January 28, 2016 7:02pm
mikenmild

I’m not sure if the literary quality of Paul’s PURPORTED epistles does much to advance the case for the existence of a historical Jesus.
I’ll file the reports of the discovery of Noah’s Ark in the same place as stories of the Turin Shroud, finding St Peter’s bones, and the Holy Foreskin.
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January 28, 2016 7:03pm
iera soesto

I am bothered by the failure of New Zealand to remove Auckland’s mayor after he was found to have had sex in the council chambers after hours with a subordinate.

So am I.
But it is not mentioned in any comment on the New Zealand Corruption Rating.
Instead Oravida, which was cleared, and a few other unproven matters
For a candidate to campaign as a Christian family man and then days after he won the mayoralty … incomprehensible
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January 28, 2016 7:07pm
Kimbo

@ mikenmild

I’m not sure if the literary quality of Paul’s PURPORTED epistles does much to advance the case for the existence of a historical Jesus.

Don’t be obtuse. Practically no scholar disputes that the letter to the Galatians was not written by Paul, by approximately 55BC at the latest, probably even up to 8 years previously. That likely places it less than twenty years after the crucifixion.

The received textual traditions of the letter to the Galatians are almost certainly indicative of an authentic transmission of the original – including the mention of Peter. A disagreement with one of the disciples of Jesus and accusing him of hypocrisy is not the sort of stuff the early church would likely have preserved if it was in the business of freely making stuff up.

I don’t mind skepticism. Fair enough. But a cavalier dismissal because it doesn’t fit your preconceived schema?! You have all the psychological makings of a religious dogmatist, mikenmild.
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January 28, 2016 7:15pm
Captain Mainwaring

“Starting at Aotea Square and going UP Queen Street to Britomart.”

Fuck Penny, you still don’t get it do you. UP Queen Street takes you to Karanagahape Rd.
What Auckland doesn’t need is a mayor who’s thicker than pigshit.
With a bit of luck your band of misfits is as dopey as you are and will end up at the wrong end of town.
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January 28, 2016 7:19pm
mikenmild

Don’t be obtuse

On Kiwiblog?
All we know about ‘Paul’ is that it seems likely that there was one author of some of the epistles, whenever they were composed.
Mythology, in other words.
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January 28, 2016 7:24pm
Kimbo

@ mikenmild

I’ll file the reports of the discovery of Noah’s Ark in the same place as stories of the Turin Shroud, finding St Peter’s bones, and the Holy Foreskin.

Sorry, mikenmild, in the forest of flippancy posing as mental engagement, I lost track of your attempt to answer my prior question. Here, I’ll repeat it for you, in the increasingly unlikely hope you will give a straight answer to a straight question:

I’m always confused by what skeptics mean when they say “no evidence for the existence of Jesus outside the gospels.”.

So can we at least agree, courtesy of the New Testament…there is evidence?
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January 28, 2016 7:27pm
Kimbo

@ mikenmild

All we know about ‘Paul’ is that it seems likely that there was one author of some of the epistles, whenever they were composed.
Mythology, in other words

Umm, links please. I’d like to see the reputable (or even non-reputable!) scholarly sources you are calling upon to support your ~~assertion~~ prejudice that Paul of Tarsus was not an historical figure as well!

Just out of interest, would you apply the same degree of scepticism to the existence and the authenticity of the works of other 1st Century Jewish writers, such as, say Philo of Alexandria and Flavius Josephus? And if not, why not?
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January 28, 2016 7:30pm
nasska

There’s sufficient evidence in the New Testament to found a reasonable assumption that a bloke named Jesus lived in the Middle East a couple of thousand years ago.

But unless you have a real good imagination & the gullibility of a five year old there is absolutely no reason to believe that he was ‘the Son of God’ or that there is such a thing as a deity.
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January 28, 2016 7:34pm
Kimbo

@ nasska

There’s sufficient evidence in the New Testament to found a reasonable assumption that a bloke named Jesus lived in the Middle East a couple of thousand years ago.

But unless you have a real good imagination & the gullibility of a five year old there is absolutely no reason to believe that he was ‘the Son of God’ or that there is such a thing as a deity.

Thanks, nasska. Irrespective of your second comment, From a sceptic and botherer of God-bothers, your first statement is a telling assessment. I’m happy to leave the discussion at that, and allow others to decide what is or isn’t immature imagination and/or gullibility.
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January 28, 2016 7:37pm
Kimbo

Sorry, typo

“Practically no scholar disputes that the letter to the Galatians was not written by Paul, by approximately 55BC at the latest” should (obviously!) be 55…A.D. 😉
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January 28, 2016 7:40pm
nasska

….”From a sceptic and botherer of God-bothers, your first statement is a telling assessment.”….

No sweat. Quote me as an expert if you like. 🙂
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January 28, 2016 7:41pm
Kimbo

@ nasska

No sweat. Quote me as an expert if you like. 🙂

You are in my database of favourite anti-Christian polemicists, between Christopher Hitchens and Voltaire
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January 28, 2016 7:49pm
mikenmild

Philo and Flavius are principally known for not noticing anything at all about Jesus at the time it was all supposedly happening.
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January 28, 2016 7:50pm
Kimbo

@ mikenmild

Philo and Flavius are principally known for not noticing anything at all about Jesus at the time it was all supposedly happening.

Yeah, I’m trying to figure out the convoluted logic of that.

As Jews they likely believed in a God who delivered Israel in the Exodus, and also a heaven, hell, angels, demons…and a resurrection of the dead at the end of the age,

…but if the alleged Paul of Tarsus, writing at the same time and sharing the same essential cosmology mentions the name of “Jesus”, that automatically places everything about Paul and his writings…including his simple direct and implied references to the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, the Apostles and Mary…in the realm of myth.

But then you decided not to confront that uncomfortable issue, and instead tried to divert the discussion to one of the weakest forms of reasoning – the argument from silence, i.e., what Philo and Josephus didn’t say! Man, you are a dishonest, slippery snake! Do you ever answer any straight questions that confront your prejudices in a straight manner?! Here, I’ll repeat my latest questions in the now almost-certainly vain assumption you will answer it directly:

Just out of interest, would you apply the same degree of scepticism to the existence and the authenticity of the works of other 1st Century Jewish writers, such as, say Philo of Alexandria and Flavius Josephus? And if not, why not?
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January 28, 2016 8:10pm
Griff

And if not, why not?
they are not gods?
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January 28, 2016 8:12pm
Kimbo

@ Griff

And if not, why not?
they are not gods?

Neither, according to his own theology and writings, is Paul.

Next reason?
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January 28, 2016 8:15pm
mikenmild

Well, I’m not challenging the existence of Josephus or Philo. Are you?
I’m fully aware that doubting the historicity of Jesus is a minority position among scholars. I’m not fully convinced either way, but even if his existence was attested by more reliable sources it wouldn’t really help much in establishing a basis for the Christian myths.
The assertions of divinity, miracles, resurrection, etc are not ones that can be resolved by evidence. They have as much authority as the tales of Joseph Smith or the fables of Aesop.
All that matters is the opinions of the credulous faithful.
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January 28, 2016 8:15pm
starboard

” protest in Auckland on Thursday 4 February 2016. ”

soap, handy andy and de-licing powder required post protest for the smelly ferals
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January 28, 2016 8:28pm
Kimbo

@ mikenmild

Well, I’m not challenging the existence of Josephus or Philo. Are you?

Still quick with the flippant deflections, aren't you!

No, I am satisfied there is more than sufficient evidence to verify the existence and writings of Philo and Josephus. But if you were consistent regarding your attitude towards the historicity of Paul of Tarsus, then you would likely have to treat them in the same way. Which, as you well know is a ridiculous position, and is the primary reason for your flippant question.

I’m fully aware that doubting the historicity of Jesus is a minority position among scholars.

OK, so now we are making progress.

I’m not fully convinced either way,

As I’ve posted before, fair enough. Which is rather different from your previous advice:

As with Jesus, any attempt to prove the historicity of St Peter is fraught with difficulty. Better just to accept that these are legends.

Admittedly the current scholarly consensus may change to match your views, but in the absence of anything other than your implied argument, “the references to the supernatural automatically renders anything and everything the New Testament says as a likely myth”, I can’t see it happening anytime soon. Even for the Jesus Seminar.

…but even if his existence was attested by more reliable sources it wouldn’t really help much in establishing a basis for the Christian myths.

Agreed.

So just to clarify, then, is that an acknowledgement that when it comes to the existence of Jesus (and I’ll repeat it again),

…we can we at least agree, courtesy of the New Testament…there is evidence?
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January 28, 2016 8:30pm
Manolo

The Nordic paradise has had enough:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3420279/Sweden-kick-80-000-immigrants-says-minister-HALF-asylum-claims-migrants-make-rejected.html
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January 28, 2016 8:39pm
Scott

Well argued Kimbo. Unfortunately the God haters do not appear to be swayed by reason. The problem appears to be philosophical – I don’t believe in miracles, I believe in a self contained universe in which there is no place for the divine. There is no God, there are no miracles, nature is all there is. This is a position that is adopted before any assessment of any evidence takes place.
The other problem is frankly a hard heart.

I am reminded of the time when the Pharisees plotted to kill Jesus. In the face of the miracles, up to and including raising the dead, their response was to kill him. It wasn’t that they didn’t have enough evidence, it was their hearts were hard and they would not believe.
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January 28, 2016 8:53pm
Harriet

“….Christians need to take the whole story on faith and resist the temptation to assert a history that can never be reliably established….”

Sodom was destroyed. And then there is Lot…..

Or also without evidence – are you saying that gays didn’t exist at all?

Gays can’t be ‘born that way’ if they never existed . 😎
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January 28, 2016 8:56pm
Manolo

Interesting times await Germany thanks to Mamma Merkel:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/01/28/berlin-grapples-with-islamists-isis-vets-amid-refugee-wave.html?intcmp=hpbt1

Investigators have identified 680 hardcore Islamists in the German capital, nearly half of whom are “geared toward violence,” said a spokeswoman for the Berlin office of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, Germany’s equivalent of the FBI. While the ISIS veterans are most worrisome, all pose a serious threat, she said.
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January 28, 2016 8:58pm
Kimbo

@ Scott

Well argued Kimbo. Unfortunately the God haters do not appear to be swayed by reason. The problem appears to be philosophical – I don’t believe in miracles, I believe in a self contained universe in which there is no place for the divine. There is no God, there are no miracles, nature is all there is. This is a position that is adopted before any assessment of any evidence takes place.

I’ll leave aside your comments regarding alleged hardness of heart as that is ultimately a faith-assertion from within the schema of the New Testament, and as General Debate is the pagan’s and atheist’s playground as the theist’s, I don’t think it is useful to talk past people.

I don’t have a problem with the demand that “extra-ordinary claims require extra-ordinary proof”. Indeed, it is thoroughly reasonable and necessary, and seems a fair enough one in regards to the claim of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

What I find baffling with many of those who have seemingly uncritically adopted the logical-positivist assumptions and tests of the culturally-prevalent Scientism, is that at the same time they are also unwilling and unable to furnish specific workable examples of exactly how the supernatural claims and beliefs of the New Testament could be demonstrated to their satisfaction. According to the New Testament Christ’s is the first and only resurrection from the dead in the current age, and his is the foretaste of a universal resurrection at the end of the age. So how exactly, does the skeptic propose the veracity should be demonstrated to their satisfaction?

Appropriately match your tests to your research to the phenomena is always the first rule of studying…anything.
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January 28, 2016 9:11pm
SGA

Scott at 8:53 pm

… The other problem is frankly a hard heart.

Goes with my thick skin 🙂
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January 28, 2016 9:16pm
SGA

@Kimbo

According to the New Testament Christ’s is the first and only resurrection from the dead in the current age,

I thought Jesus himself raised 2 or 3 from the dead, or am I misremembering.
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January 28, 2016 9:19pm
EAD

Thankfully the holocau$t memorial day is coming to a close. Must we be beaten about over the head and made to feel guilty so that we must commit hari kari on our own civilisations to atone for a crime that has been so wildly exaggerated and fictionalised to now bear almost no basis in actual reality? All the while vanishing down the memory the infinity greater crimes committed on the Russian people under the Bolsheviks?

though they were more forgetful about the precise numbers killed, the methods of killing, where the bodies are buried and how much treasure was looted, let alone the windows in a gas chamber(!) the inward moving doors and the sheer idiocy or the ‘Final Solution” logistically. But non of that really matters when the persecuted ones have ensured anyone asking questions about a historical event which casts them as the ultimate victim group can be jailed. Jewish Hollywood has also ensured we will ”never forget’ with 250 films of Holo-Horror so far, most of which have flopped as the gentile audience grows as tired of doe eyed Romanians in stripy pajamas as they are of the highly intelligent and kindly negro patriarch stereotype also pushed by ”Hollyweird” and the mass media…..

The Holocaust is the primary tool used to cripple whites in the genocidal war the Jewish community is waging against them, Holocaustianity has replaced Christianity as a grounding for Western morality. Holocaustianity has its devil, Hitler, the greatest evil is for Europeans to reject ”The Other”. It did have its own saviours in the allied armies but as the guilt and psychological warfare expanded ALL people of European ancestry are guilty by virtue of being white. White people must atone for this, for eternity, by grovelling before the policies invented by the Jews and then they must grovel before the Jews as a people, while they are being replaced by the Third World at the hands of the Jews.
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January 28, 2016 9:22pm
stigie

“soap, handy andy and de-licing powder required post protest for the smelly ferals”

Yep, and you can guarantee their kids will be holding up these placards not knowing why the fuck they are holding them up for !~
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January 28, 2016 9:23pm
SGA

@Kimbo

is that at the same time they are also unwilling and unable to furnish specific workable examples of exactly how the supernatural claims and beliefs of the New Testament could be demonstrated to their satisfaction.

Why limit that to the claims and beliefs of the New Testament? I imagine there are a range of supernatural claims and beliefs that I can’t think of a workable test for.
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January 28, 2016 9:23pm
sooty

Will Miss Bright be able to lead the parade? She might be in preventitive detention, with the TPPA coming up!
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January 28, 2016 9:26pm
Yoza

SGA (3,430 comments) says:
January 28th, 2016 at 9:19 pm

@Kimbo

According to the New Testament Christ’s is the first and only resurrection from the dead in the current age,

I thought Jesus himself raised 2 or 3 from the dead, or am I misremembering.

And then there was this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv8mCBkSP3s
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January 28, 2016 9:26pm
Griff

Test
any documented miracles that hold up to scrutiny in the modern era
no .
Any claims examined are found to be within chance, have no documented verifiable evidence or are plainly bogus
Hence the evidence for any and all supernatural forces is zero within the period that we have had access to the scientific method.
We then fall back on logic
Many thousands of religions reliant on gods have been proposed only one can be true according to most belief systems.
This gives very small odds that your god Jesus his dad and some goat are the one. Around one in forty thousand.

We can propose reasons why and how man has evolved this belief system in gods. This theory has more evidence than the actual gods have so is a more rational proposition to adopt.

Faith is belief without proof the opposite of rational .
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January 28, 2016 9:27pm
stephieboy

EAD, just keep plugging away at explaining the disappearance of Poland’s ” exaggerated 2.3 Million Jews and the 1.5 million in the occupied Soviet Union ?

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23403#p203451

Interesting and revealing I believe if you link your quote ?
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January 28, 2016 9:29pm
nasska

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4drtx73f78rpk7s/Religionutters%2042.jpg?dl=0&preview=Religionutters+42.jpg
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January 28, 2016 9:29pm
Kimbo

@ SGA

According to the New Testament Christ’s is the first and only resurrection from the dead in the current age,

I thought Jesus himself raised 2 or 3 from the dead, or am I misremembering.

No, you are not, and you have picked up on my deliberate-over-simplification. But in the context of the resurrection of Christ, the resurrections of others in the Gospelsy are, in effect, “physical resuscitations”, as there was no assumption or claim that the likes of Jairus’ daughter, the widow’s son in Nain or Lazarus were a permanent cheating of death.

In contrast, as especially as per I Corinthians chapter 15, (verse 20)

20…Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Which matches much of Jewish apocalyptic expectation. At the end of the age Messiah would come to save his people, and there would be a resurrection of the just and the unjust, the declaring of righteousness/justification on the faithful and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, the judgement on the wicked, and the restoration of creation to the original state of shalom/peace/wholeness.

Where Christianity differs from the other forms of Judaism it grew among is that, in Jesus the Messiah/Christ, part of the future has been brought forward and placed in the present. The theological term is ‘inaugurated eschatology’. So he has been raised in the expectation others who believe in/align themselves to him will be too.

So to expect post-resurrection-of-Jesus repeats (and there are actually examples in the Book of Acts) is not reasonable, or at least not on demand to satisfy skeptics. Within the schema of the New Testament, “do not put the LORD your God to the test” applies, just as much as it did to Jesus himself! 😉
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January 28, 2016 9:33pm
Nostradamus

Scott:

1. You believe in a god.
2. Other people believe in a different god.
3. Nasska doesn’t believe in any god.

As long as everyone sticks to their personal belief, and doesn’t interfere with anyone else’s personal belief, what’s the problem?
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January 28, 2016 9:34pm
stigie

http://s105.photobucket.com/user/Sosasgurl21/media/Cartoons/4ac562bc.jpg.html
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January 28, 2016 9:50pm
SGA

Kimbo at 9:33 pm

No, you are not, and you have picked up on my deliberate-over-simplification. But in the context of the resurrection of Christ, the resurrections of others in the Gospelsy are, in effect, “physical resuscitations”, as there was no assumption or claim that the likes of Jairus’ daughter, the widow’s son in Nain or Lazarus were a permanent cheating of death.

hmmm… I suppose having different classes of resurrection is necessary if the Easter story is to have its special significance.
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January 28, 2016 9:53pm
Kimbo

@ Griff

Test
any documented miracles that hold up to scrutiny in the modern era
no .

As a cessationist, who believes there is a very good implied case within the New testament itself that miracles were to end with the passing of the Apostolic Age…I agree.

Any claims examined are found to be within chance, have no documented verifiable evidence or are plainly bogus
Hence the evidence for any and all supernatural forces is zero within the period that we have had access to the scientific method.

As per above, I agree.

We then fall back on logic

As with all things you write, Griff, this should be amusing. 😉

Many thousands of religions reliant on gods have been proposed only one can be true according to most belief systems.

This gives very small odds that your god Jesus his dad and some goat are the one. Around one in forty thousand.

Actually, no. Only the three classical forms of monotheism (Judaism, Christianity and Islam do. Pagans of the Ancient Near East and Mediterranean world who provide the backdrop to the Bible had no problem with variations. Indeed, Rome persecuted Christians as “atheists” because, unlike every other group within their Empire, they alone refused to sacrifice to Caesar as a god (Jews had a special dispensation).

And that is not counting eclectic beliefs like Hindusim and Buddhism that can “add” aspects of the three monotheistic faiths to ther schema when it suits.

All of which means your 40,000 to 1 analogy is false. And it also assumes that all the choices are “equal”, in the sense that the means of verifying them is equal. As the Biblical faiths have radically differing cosmologies from the religions around which they arose, and also Hinduism/Buddhism, that is not a given. And some, such as Islam and Mormonism are, I would suggest, easily refutable.

We can propose reasons why and how man has evolved this belief system in gods.

You can indeed propose that, and many have.

This theory has more evidence than the actual gods have

From a Christian perspective…maybe. But again, you have made the error of making “all gods”, or at least belief in them equal. But you could also turn that around and argue humanity’s inherent religiosity and penchant for is perhaps proof of a creator.

so is a more rational proposition to adopt.

Maybe. Maybe not. But your conclusion betrays your Enlightenment/Scientism prejudices that “reason” is a sure means of ascertaining truth in all cases. Two obvious problems

1. It can only ever be partial

2. it’s results are always subject to contradiction as it is practiced by fallible human beings. Don’t believe me? Just look around General Debate and you’ll be…surprised at how unwittingly unreasonable people can be, without even realising it 😉

Faith is belief without proof the opposite of rational .

Not necessarily. Logical positivism is not the only way of establishing truth. As long as it does not contradict reason (and as I’ve argued above, I would suggest you have failed in your attempt to prove in absolute terms belief in God is unreasonable), then faith in something that transcends reason would appear a valid choice.
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January 28, 2016 9:55pm
calendar girl

@ 5:19pm

“Mayoral Candidate the bright screeching pennybludger again demonstrates her ignorance of the geography of the city she hopes to be in charge of.
“Last time I went to Aotea Square it was DOWN to Britomart. But maybe the lost souls and dropkicks whom she hopes to attract to this ‘event’ don’t give a stuff. Particularly as she doesn’t even mention what time it kicks off.”

Brilliant retort, Captain Mainwaring.
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January 28, 2016 9:59pm
Kimbo

@ SGA

hmmm… I suppose having different classes of resurrection is necessary if the Easter story is to have its special significance.

…and I’d suggest as Christ’s resurrection is the climax to the Gospel narratives, as well as an assumed and prerequisite fact on every other page of the New Testament, that would indeed be the case. 😉
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January 28, 2016 10:03pm
cha

heh

David Horsey ‏@davidhorsey 8h8 hours ago

Ted Cruz may discover lots of “New York values,” even in Iowa… http://www.latimes.com/opinion/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-cruz-slams-new-york-20160127-story.html …

https://twitter.com/davidhorsey/status/692509886819778560
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January 28, 2016 10:05pm
SGA

@Kimbo
Damn, now I’ve Herod’s song from JC Superstar as an earworm (not being sarcastic, true).
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January 28, 2016 10:06pm
Kiwi Dave

Harriet @8.56 ‘And then there is Lot.’

Indeed. That’s a story I’d take with a grain of salt.
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January 28, 2016 10:12pm
Griff

As long as it does not contradict reason
ROFL
bejesus his dad and a goat.
The ineffable single god of three pieces who made us imperfect then killed his undead son who is himself to make up for that failure.
The entire concept defys reason from were I stand .
I dont have faith.
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January 28, 2016 10:15pm
Kimbo

@ SGA

Why limit that to the claims and beliefs of the New Testament? I imagine there are a range of supernatural claims and beliefs that I can’t think of a workable test for.

Good question. I’ll willingly admit that like Griff and mikenmild I hold to a form of anti-supernaturalism for relatively simple reasons – they seem to occur so seldom, and the incredulous seem the only ones believing them. However, my position is ultimately pragmatic, rather than philosophical/absolute.

However, I’ll also willingly admit that it is ultimately my dogma (the God of the Bible is the only one capable of performing genuine miracles…and he only does so in accordance with those Scriptures) ahead of anything, including my pragmatic that makes me skeptical of all other miraculous claims.

But as per my reference above to Mormonism and Islam, it is not just the unlikelihood of miracles that falsify those two faiths IMHO. No evidence has ever been found in the Americas to confirm the vast transplanted Ancient Near Eastern civilisations that the Book of Mormon says dwelt there…for them to have existed flies in the face of all we know of how human civilisations leave their footprints.

Similarly, despite Muslim claims that the doctrines of the crucifixion of Jesus and his deity were late additions to the New Testament, there has been no textual evidence to support Muhammed’s assertions that the Christian Scriptures taught that. Indeed, you simply cannot remove Christ’s deity and crucifixion and have…anything left.

And Hinduism and Buddhism to me fail a simple existential test: they do not seem “livable”. Who is really capable of treating material life as maya/illusory? Not the millions of Hindus who every day eat food, take care of their loved ones, strive to sustain their (supposedly illusory) material lives. Unlike the claims of a resurrection of Christ with alleged witnesses in a particular known historical setting, Hinduism, other than its negligible proofs of deja vu that supposedly support the existence of reincarnation, is almost entirely and self-admittedly ‘subjective’ in asserting its claims of truth.

That’s a long-winded way, I guess, of saying “if you have a miraculous claim..then let me know what it is…and apply Occam’s Razor to the details, rather than just automatic philosophical anti-supernaturalism”. By that test I find clairvoyants, mediums and assorted leg-lengthening miracle workers to be invariably bogus.

So why not the New Testament? Of all the other post-Resurrection scenarios, I think “a group religious-delusion” overcame the followers of Jesus is likely about the best…but it does not seem to account for the internal consistency I find in the New Testament, or the sort of stuff I posted above about Paul’s and Peter’s subsequent ministries and writings or the rest of the New Testament, including the fact of the primitive church. Sure, I know Muslims claim the same of the Koran, but I find it unlikely some committee got together, tried to cobble a coherent belief system out of a delusion…and got what they did. In contrast, I read a piece of rubbish like the stuff Joseph Smith wrote, and it fails the “smell” test. However, I readily admit there is some subjective element to that assessment.
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January 28, 2016 10:36pm
Kimbo

@ Griff

The ineffable single god of three pieces

The trinity – a good example of a doctrine that transcends, rather than defies reason. If God’s “oneness” was the same as his “threeness”, then that is clearly unreasonable. But they are not. One is referring to what the creeds (attempting to summarise the Scriptures) calls his “essence”, and the other “persons”.

But then if you had a supreme and sovereign God in the manner of the Scriptures who was entirely comprehensible to finite and fallible human reason…then he wouldn’t be God, would he?
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January 28, 2016 10:41pm
cha

They keep coming….

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZxS0GHVIAAGgXL.jpg
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January 28, 2016 10:58pm
Left Right and Centre

Religious debate. Well – there is no ‘religion debate’ for the believers. Just . . . ‘religion’.
On talkback – fella rings in with the nutbar chat of the believer god this and that or something. Host shoots back – which of the three thousand gods is the one that you believe in. Too funny. Ohp – we’ve got a problem. Hang on – say what ? 3 000 ? Shit – I’m not talking with one of my own, how can that be ? Everyone agrees that my deity exists and is the one and only . . . ah, yeh.

It’s a foregone conclusion apparently. It just is. My bs exists without question and is the one and only bs – all the rest are wrong.
You don’t start with the answer and then come up with a question for it.
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January 29, 2016 3:46am
Left Right and Centre

Random receipt time. I’ve got two, but one’s a bit boring. Ok, I’ll do both . . .

(i) $199 – 39 items. Aunt Betty Wheelies (??) klg orig bars (must be shit) le snak sumpreme cheese (shit) oki doki choco cooki (it’s shitty just typing that – what is that, a freakin eye-chart ?) c/t c/chip 7 (I’m guessing shit) $13 on salmon heads!! $32 of beef schnitzel – nice. Name brand milk – nice. Full fat of course. French rolls (high carb). Electric toothbrush $45, is it ? It says oral-b t/b ref preci.

That’s the ‘cleaner’ receipt. The bad boy is next . . .

(ii) $253 – 79 items. peckish thins original x 3. crumbed fish burgers (shit) t/t icrm jelly tip 2 (yum yum) twix 55g, snickers 50g, f/bake chips, b/b twisties cheese, eta spuds thin chick, 1kg rice x 2 (high carb) yum yum chicken (instant noodles ?) kellog nutri grain (lolly cereal) le snak cheese m/pac (popular today) n&n choc nutbar pean x 2 (high energy nasty shit) margarine (with everything) bacon (on bacon for eg) Heller sausages, $12 worth, beef schnitzel, beef mince (block those arteries – don’t forget to add some marge). What is bldc mch500g 99c ? BB all star mix snacks $6.50. Bdgt c/puffs – $.90 (I’m guessing some form of shit). Shaved leg ham. Oats. maggi noodles fr bee. vege crisps org (shit). Grapes ($7 – nice), bananas, apples, pumpkin (good, good, good, good). Everything else is ok or sort of ok.

hmmm – the health advocates are going to need a sugar tax, fat tax, meat tax, a grape daily limit, muesli bar tax . . . fish burger tax . . . they didn’t buy that stuff to look at it, they’re eating all of that – hehehehe
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January 29, 2016 4:08am
igm

What’s happening? Has Dog had a reprieve, one of its posts is surviving . . . bad precedent!
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January 29, 2016 6:40am
Manolo

The philanderer flops: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/29/us/politics/bill-clinton-campaign.html

At an event in Las Vegas last week, Mr. Clinton, 69, looked smaller and his voice seemed weaker than in past campaigns, and people had to strain to hear him at times.

He was at his best as he finessed the intricacies of politics and policy, but he occasionally meandered, leaving the audience, including some who had lined up for hours to see him, seeming more politely attentive than inspired.

At a critical moment when the former president is again answering the call to try to energize his wife’s campaign, even some of Mr. Clinton’s admirers are wondering if he has lost some of that old Clinton magic.
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January 29, 2016 7:26am
Manolo

The old socialist nutter talks about a conspiracy theory:
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/sanders-campaign-suspicious-corporate-influence-iowa-caucus

The campaign of Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders is raising questions about the involvement of Microsoft in the Iowa Caucuses, now just days away, and has built a independent system to check the official results.

For the first time this year, Microsoft partnered with the Iowa Democratic and Republican Parties to provide a technology platform with which the parties will run their caucuses. The software giant created separate mobile apps for each party, which officials at hundreds of caucuses across the state will use to report out results from individual precincts to party headquarters for tabulation.
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January 29, 2016 7:30am
Manolo

I’m sure stephieboy would be happy to billet him:
http://news.yahoo.com/gay-syrian-refugees-hope-life-tested-dutch-camps-034324173.html

Amsterdam (AFP) – Omar had long dreamt of escaping discrimination in Syria, and drawn by exuberant images of the Gay Pride march in Amsterdam he hoped to find a new life in the Dutch city after fleeing war at home.

But four months after arriving in the Netherlands, the 20-year-old was shocked to find himself the victim of insults, taunts and intimidation from his fellow travelling companions.
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January 29, 2016 7:33am
Scott

Nostradamus at 9:34 PM – the problem is that society has to be based on something. Right at the moment everything is based on secularism. There is a desire to denigrate Christianity and remove all signs of its presence from the public square.

So secular lawmakers will do one thing and therefore impinge on Christians and their faith. Christianity demands certain sets of laws and principles. So we’re not just doing our own thing, any law is based on principles that are either secular or are not and therefore impinge on others.

A good example is homosexual marriage where people who do not adhere to gayness are persecuted such as the Christian bakery which was prosecuted for not making a gay wedding cake, Christian wedding celebrants will be prosecuted for not taking gay marriages. I’m sorry but we live in a society together and they will be based on Christian laws or hopeless secular laws, they will not be neutral.
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January 29, 2016 11:40am
Kimbo

@ Scott

Christianity demands certain sets of laws and principles.

It does nothing of the sort. As per the first three hundred years of the church’s existence, and as per the various trial scenes in the Book of Acts, it simply requests of Caesar the legal tolerance to proclaim its message in the public space. As you are now doing that quite freely, and no government agents are scheduled to burst into your house, drag you away and deprive you of your personal liberties…we can safely conclude all is as it should be.

Including the ignoring and thwarting of your attempts to impose a neo-Christendom on those who do not want it…
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January 29, 2016 11:52am

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