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December 3, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 3 December 2015

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mikenmild

So Fletch, please propose a proper definition of ‘mass shooting’ and then let us know whether the US has too few, too many, or just the right amount of them.
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December 3, 2015 8:12pm
Witness

@ stephieboy

Less than three weeks after the Paris shootings, we have another slaughter of lives by Muslims in America.

Thoughts?
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December 3, 2015 8:17pm
Fletch

When I hear “mass shooting”, events like those of today automatically come to my mind. Shooter(s), multiple fatalities, wall-to-wall news coverage – you know the thing. I suspect that is what most people relate the term to. Not a gang war in Chicago or Detroit, black-on-black violence, or a drive by shooting (which the media ignore anyway). Tell me I’m wrong.
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December 3, 2015 8:19pm
Griff

wrong?
You are racist.
Black lives dont count.

Mass shooting is four or more victims
It does not matter if those victims are black, white,or purple Muslim, Atheist or Catholic, criminals, preachers or baby’s they are still the victims of Americas stupid gun laws.
,
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December 3, 2015 8:25pm
mikenmild

Like I say Fletch, feel free to develop a definition of ‘mass shooting’ that excludes the victims you feel are not worth counting.
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December 3, 2015 8:26pm
blazeoflight

Mass shootings is four or more, generally, and gangs or criminal type-organisations violence is excluded.

I know, its tricky.

It’s not the ethnicity of the victims that is analysed, but the motivations of the perpetrators.
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December 3, 2015 8:33pm
Witness

@ stephieboy

Your a father with a wife and three children. 10 people arrive at your doorstep asking to move in with you. You know for certain that 3-4 of them are serial killers, bit not which ones. Do you invite them in to live with your family?
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December 3, 2015 8:34pm
EAD

Sigh,

I see the usual suspects (MM, Lucia) et al. are again throwing around their trite and baseless “holocaust denier” label as of it actually means anything. Well dear Kiwibloggers, let me lay out my position and you be the judge as I lay out my position.

1. The Jews in Europe did indeed suffer a Holocaust in which vast numbers of them were killed and otherwise lost their lives during WW II.

2. The numbers come nowhere near the mythical (and it is mythical) figure of six million. I don’t know what the number was, maybe nobody does but I suspect it was closer to a tenth of that figure.

3. Other peoples suffered a Holocaust as well during this time, at least as bad as that suffered by the Jews. I have in mind the Poles, Russians, Ukrainians and of course the Germans themselves. Theratio of Tutsis slaughtered in Rwanda dwarfs the ratio of Jews killed in their Holocaust. Yet Jews have cornered the genocide market.

4. There was no plan to exterminate Europe’s Jews. The plan was to get them into work camps, slave labour camps if you will, and at the end of the war expel them to Israel, Uganda, Madagascar or the steppes of Russia.

5. The majority of Jewish deaths resulted from the actions of the Einsatzgruppen and their local allies. These forces operated behind German lines after Operation Barbarossa to suppress local resistance. Such resistance was strongly associated with Jews who were in any event an easily identifiable target. Vast numbers were murdered and buried in mass graves. The local forces allied to the Einsatzgruppen undoubtedly took the opportunity to settle many an old score as part of the process. Typhus outbreaks in the camps were also a major contributor…possibly the largest.

6. The idea of the gas chambers as a form of mass slaughter is a complete fabrication.

7. The piles of skeletal bodies as seen in the iconic photos from Belsen and elsewhere represented the victims of typhus and starvation, the latter brought on by the bombing of German supply lines.

I have not arrived at these conclusions casually or quickly. I truly believe that they represent what really occurred.
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December 3, 2015 8:35pm
blazeoflight

Here’s a link for the above:

http://www.vox.com/a/mass-shootings-sandy-hook

And the takeaway for our purposes:

‘Using the definition many people operate under — shootings at a public place in which the shooter murdered four or more people, excluding domestic, gang, and drug violence — they appear to be getting more common, according to an analysis from Harvard School of Public Health researchers.’
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December 3, 2015 8:36pm
Fletch

Oh, come on. If you tuned into the news tomorrow morning, and they reported that there had been another “mass shooting” in America, and it turned out they were reporting on a gang turf rumble in Chicago in which 4 gang members had been killed, wouldn’t you say they had used the term inappropriately? Of course you would.

Only, there would never be a story like that because shootings of that kind happen all the time in Chicago or Detroit and the media don’t care about it.
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December 3, 2015 8:36pm
blazeoflight

@EAD

As a proportion of population, deaths of Jews far outweighed deaths of the other ethnicities. Jewish deaths were at least 50% of the victim count.

You really need to stop flogging this dead horse.
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December 3, 2015 8:40pm
blazeoflight

@Fletch

You are correct. a few years ago, on his first business trip to Detroit (car business), from his hotel room he could hear sporadic gunfire most of the night. In the morning he turned on the news to see what occurred, and it wasn’t covered. He went to his business meeting and recounted his story and the American laughed and said it was so common it just doesn’t get reported!

But see above – they are not mass shootings in the accepted sense of the term.

11,000 Americans are killed each year in gun violence – mass shootings are a tiny minority of that figure.
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December 3, 2015 8:43pm
Fletch

In a similar way, some liberal website called ‘Everytown’ claimed in 2013 that there had been 74 mass shootings in schools since Sandy Hook (I think they claim even more now). CNN looked at it, and the number was actually 15 when you remove gang shootings etc. And yes, 15 is bad enough.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/11/us/school-shootings-cnn-number/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

I am betting that this statistic today is of the same ilk.
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December 3, 2015 8:44pm
stephieboy

EAD , the Jewish population of Poland was c 2.3 million prior to the Nazi invasion Immediate post war and to date c6,000 .

Where are the rest ??
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December 3, 2015 8:46pm
Fletch

Mass public shootings, where the shooter intends to commit mass murder in a public place, has not “exploded” over the last five years, as frequently claimed in the media, either in terms of the number of attacks or the number of people killed. Indeed, the evidence points to a slight decline in attacks.

http://crimeresearch.org/2014/10/new-cprc-report-errors-in-bloombergs-latest-report-on-mass-shootings-2/

Now, they’re talking about mass shootings, here, not terrorist attacks (of which today’s is looking more likely).
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December 3, 2015 8:47pm
stephieboy

Witness , yes it ” may” prove the case as with the Boston bombings . You and your God’s response and solution ?
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December 3, 2015 8:49pm
mikenmild

EAD
You claim that you are not a Holocaust denier, but then go on to firmly state some of the most common tenets of the most prominent Holocaust deniers.
1. Querying the 6 million and suggesting it was closer to 600,000. The 6 million is very well documented by thorough scholarship.
2. Other people suffered. No one has denied this. Other ethnicities and sects were targeted. The Jewish case is unique as a vast population was identified as the Nazis’ prime enemy and marked for destruction. Yes, there was such a plan. Again, it is well documented.
3. Jews were often referred to as ‘partisans’ to cloak mass murder with the veneer of a legitimate military operation.
4. The extermination camps and gas chambers are well evidenced. No serious scholar denies this.
5. If the starvation at Belsen was due to Allied bombing, one would have expected to see similar sights in the surrounding area.
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December 3, 2015 8:50pm
stephieboy

Fletch, John Lott the founder of Crime Prevention Research Center (CPRC)

Shooting Down the Gun Lobby’s Favorite “Academic”: A Lott of Lies

“Yet his daunting resume fails to tell the entire story. While his initial research was groundbreaking, further examination revealed numerous flaws. Today the “more guns, less crime” hypothesis has been thoroughly repudiated. On closer inspection his impressive credentials reveal an academic nomad, never able to secure a place in academia. His ethical transgressions range from accusations of fabricating an entire survey, to presenting faulty regressions, to creating elaborate online personas to defend his work and bash critics, to trying to revise his online history to deflect arguments. And this doesn’t even begin to cover the whole host of false claims and statistics he has peddled repeatedly in articles and TV appearances.
His descent into dishonesty began ironically with a groundbreaking study.

The Birth of More Guns, Less Crime…….etc “

http://www.armedwithreason.com/shooting-down-the-gun-lobbys-favorite-academic-a-lott-of-lies/
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December 3, 2015 8:56pm
Johnboy

“I have not arrived at these conclusions casually or quickly. I truly believe that they represent what really occurred.”

Good grief… What a fuckwit! 🙂
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December 3, 2015 8:56pm
Johnboy

Don’t waste your considerable intellect on him milkey… stick to bagging Wainui/Petone! 🙂
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December 3, 2015 8:58pm
mikenmild

Pseudohistory is one of my things, Johnboy. Holocaust denial is just the most poisonous example of this. And EAD pisses me off with his national socialism bullshit.
Who do I cheer for when Wainui plays Petone? Petone, of course.
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December 3, 2015 9:01pm
Awww C-mon

“I have not arrived at these conclusions casually or quickly. I truly believe that they represent what really occurred.”

Good know that the level of stupid you reached wasnt easy EAD, I am encouraged you have had to work at becoming such a cock!
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December 3, 2015 9:06pm
publicwatchdog

At LONG last Kiwibloggers!

New Zealand FINALLY ratifies the UN Convention Against Corruption.

‘Whistle-blowing’ works?
________________________________

Amy Adams 2 DECEMBER, 2015

NZ ratifies UN Convention Against Corruption

New Zealand has reinforced its commitment to combating corruption by ratifying the United Nations Convention Against Corruption, says Justice Minister Amy Adams.

The Convention is a legally binding global agreement to address corruption in the private and public spheres.

“While New Zealand already has a strong reputation for having low levels of corruption, we cannot be complacent. We have broadly complied with the Convention for a number of years, but we needed to make a limited number of law changes before we could ratify it,” says Ms Adams.

The necessary changes were made through the Organised Crime and Anti-corruption Legislation Bill, which amended 15 Acts and was recently passed by Parliament.

“The changes made by the Bill, along with our formal ratification of the Convention, mean New Zealand’s ability to combat corruption is now stronger than ever.

Benefits of ratifying the Convention include ensuring our domestic anti-corruption measures remain robust and meet international best practice.

“It’s also a clear demonstration that New Zealand values a fair and corruption-free international trading system.

This is important for maintaining New Zealand’s reputation as a trustworthy trading partner with zero-tolerance for corruption.

“As a member of the Convention, New Zealand will be able to better contribute to global anti-corruption efforts by providing a legal basis for extradition and mutual legal assistance between other member countries when dealing with corruption-related crimes,” says Ms Adams.

New Zealand joins 177 other countries as a State Party to the United Nations Convention Against Corruption.

The Convention focuses on four key areas: prevention, criminalisation, international cooperation, and recovery of the proceeds of corruption.

The specific amendments made by the Organised Crime and Anti-corruption Legislation Bill to enable ratification of the Convention include:

the creation of new corruption offences related to solicitation and acceptance of bribes by foreign public officials, and trading in influence over public officials
increased penalties for private sector
corruption

clarification that no bribes are tax deductible.
_________________________________

Penny Bright

‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’

2016 Auckland Mayoral candidate.
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December 3, 2015 9:28pm
Johnboy

I’m certain your likely to be elected in 2016 Penny.

Auckland really needs a mayor just like you! 🙂
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December 3, 2015 9:32pm
Awww C-mon

“NZ ratifies UN Convention Against Corruption

New Zealand has reinforced its commitment to combating corruption by ratifying the United Nations Convention Against Corruption, says Justice Minister Amy Adams.”

Does this mean you will declare ALL sources of income before the mayoral campaign?
Does this mean you will give an honest account of yourself in court of these bloody letters you received?
Does this mean you will pay your rates and clear any debt with council before the mayoral campaign?

No didn’t think so…

Fuck off Penny
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December 3, 2015 9:34pm
stigie

When’s the hovel up for auction Penny ?
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December 3, 2015 9:34pm
stigie

All these fucking questions to Penny……and we dont expect an answer !~
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December 3, 2015 9:37pm
mikenmild

You must truly hate Auckland, Johnboy.
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December 3, 2015 9:37pm
Awww C-mon

Moon: 49.8%
Waning Crescent

Hhmmm, why are you even out tonight Penny, totally wrong moon cycle, next thing Dad will show up and totally throw the theories out the window!
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December 3, 2015 9:39pm
Johnboy

Penny’s hovel is probably worth $931,000 stigie.

$1,300,000 if she vacates it first! 🙂
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December 3, 2015 9:46pm
Fletch

Nobel laureate Milton Friedman noted: “John Lott has few equals as a perceptive analyst of controversial public policy issues.”

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2000/0918/6608122a.html

High praise indeed, from Friedman.
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December 3, 2015 9:54pm
stigie

Thank christ we dont live in Auckland JB, this is what the poor bastards have to look forward to !~

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/sXMXgvUyZeY/hqdefault.jpg
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December 3, 2015 9:56pm
stephieboy

Can’t wait the day that house goes up on the action block and Penny with her multitude of about four protestors gawks helplessly on !
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December 3, 2015 9:56pm
stigie

You wont be one of them Stiffy…?
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December 3, 2015 9:59pm
Johnboy

But she’ll look much better in the Ngati Whatua room with her ankles behind her ears and her Mayoral chains dangling stigie! 🙂
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December 3, 2015 10:04pm
thedavincimode

That was pretty irresponsible stigie.

If you’re going to link images like that they should be accompanied by some sort of parental warning about mad Cossacks.
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December 3, 2015 10:04pm
stephieboy

Fletch, wasn’t Freidman the one who wanted to sell off National Parks like Yosemite , Yellowstone , Grand Canyon and privatise all the public highways ?,

“What Milton Friedman said was that government should not interfere,” said Allen Sinai, chief global economist for Decision Economics Inc., a consulting group. “It didn’t work. We now are looking at one of the greatest real estate busts of all time. The free market is not geared to take care of the casualties, because there’s no profit motive. There’s no market incentive to deal with the unemployed or those who have lost their homes.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/13/weekinreview/13goodman.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
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December 3, 2015 10:05pm
Reid

Can’t wait the day that house goes up on the action block and Penny with her multitude of about four protestors gawks helplessly on !

Takes a special kind of nasty to be gleeful about someone losing their home stupidboy. No matter what the circumstance.

Says a lot about you as a human being.

Especially considering the fact you hide behind the lefty pwogwessive label as well.

Says a great deal, actually.
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December 3, 2015 10:07pm
stigie

Sorry Davinci, that was irresponsible, should have known better, i am a utter disgrace only because there is no full moon tonight ole chap !~
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December 3, 2015 10:09pm
thedavincimode

I have not arrived at these conclusions casually or quickly. ~~I truly believe that they represent what really occurred.~~ I had to shove my head up my arse for an entire year in order to do so and I crave recognition for that feat of endurance
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December 3, 2015 10:12pm
deadrightkev

NZ doesn’t have a government. It has a committee of progressive fools. It is embarrassing.
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December 3, 2015 10:16pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Oscar Pistorius guilty of murder.
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December 3, 2015 10:16pm
stephieboy

Reid, so it’s OK for someone like Penny Bright not to pay her rates unlike me and the overwhelming majority of other here in Auckland and elsewhere ?

I take it you’ve chosen to follow in her footsteps ?
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December 3, 2015 10:18pm
Johnboy

Pistorius is a really stupid name. It’s like a combination of pissed and glorious.

Only a Japie could have such a fucking stupid name! 🙂
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December 3, 2015 10:22pm
sam green

Quote of the week:

“We had to struggle with the old enemies of peace — business and financial monopoly, speculation, reckless banking, class antagonism, sectionalism, war profiteering. They had begun to consider the Government of the United States as a mere appendage to their own affairs. We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.”

— President Franklin D. Roosevelt, October 31, 1936
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December 3, 2015 10:25pm
Rowan

Stephiethebot
Seeing as you asked so nicely, here is a sample of many of the old beans lies and factual errors in this review of its book.
I suspect she wrote the review in the third person about her own book just so that it would look like someone bought her bs, much like when it published the book using a pseud and then was on here talking about it in the third person.
https://petesnewhangout.wordpress.com/2015/03/10/the-bain-killings-book-review/
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December 3, 2015 10:31pm
cha

High praise indeed, from Friedman.

Yet in a country as litigious as the US Lott’s unable to shut down critics who label him an outright liar.

http://www.armedwithreason.com/shooting-down-the-gun-lobbys-favorite-academic-a-lott-of-lies/
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December 3, 2015 10:34pm
Griff

NZ doesn’t have a government. It has a committee of progressive fools. It is embarrassing.

Not as embarrassing as colon crag and his love poems .
Or his monumental meltdown .

EH dead right kev.
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December 3, 2015 10:37pm
Rowan

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/74682647/Donation-paid-over-disgusting-Caitlyn-Jenner-billboard-in-Auckland

Interested to know what others think, is ‘Caitlyn’ a ‘he’ a ‘she’ or an ‘it’
I’d say a he as you are what your born despite of whatever cosmetic surgery you have to have a ‘sex change’, however if he wants to call himself a she then I might reclassify him as an ‘it’
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December 3, 2015 10:39pm
Jack5

No chance of General Debate hitting 400 posts tonight.

All action is on the Garrett thread about Muslim immigration.

There, the Stephieboys, heavily reinforced by keyboard jihadists, are making smoke to obfuscate the imminent news about the San Bernadino massacre: that it’s a Muslim terrorist attack, and not a shoot-up by gun-happy red necks, as Obama would have it.
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December 3, 2015 11:41pm
sam green

Hey Jack5. Say Jesus backwards …. You know you want to.
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December 3, 2015 11:59pm
sam green

Hahaha you did it!
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December 4, 2015 12:44am
xlanted.bridge

Be careful when spouting Milton Friedman and his corrupt School of Chicago.

If you want to be enlightened about this fuckwit and his methods then watch this:

https://vimeo.com/26718047
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December 4, 2015 3:19pm
wikiriwhis business

Hitler Survivor: Keep Your Guns And Buy More

84-year-old Kitty Werthmann lived through Hitler’s reign and has some dire warnings for Americans to not let history repeat itself with Barack Obama.

She sees striking resemblances between Obama’s actions and Hitler’s – from the redistribution of wealth to the nationalization of health care to gun confiscation and other issues.

http://www.truthandaction.org/hitler-survivor-keep-guns-buy/
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December 4, 2015 3:28pm

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