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December 11, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 11 December 2015

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Captain Mainwaring

“During his tenure in Indonesia, Groser converted to Islam after marrying his second wife, an Indonesian citizen.”

I knew a guy who did the same – had to become a Muslim in order to marry an Indonesian lady. Didn’t stop him enjoying the odd libation, and he certainly didn’t starve during Ramadan.
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December 11, 2015 11:00am
Manolo

Even liberal Piers Morgan hammers Obama:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3354481/PIERS-MORGAN-Donald-Trump-s-Muslim-travel-ban-dumb-laid-Obama-dumber-says-Piers-Morgan.html

As Obama is seen to be fiddling while Rome burns, Trump is seen, whether you agree with him or not, to at least have an understanding of the immediacy and scale of the threat and a clear determination to try and deal with it.

I watched President Obama’s address to the nation from the Oval Office a few days ago and thought it was dreadful. He sounded utterly devoid of any real new ideas on how to tackle ISIS, whose military and economic power strengthens every day.

He spoke in weary tones of how we were going to beat them but nobody listening to him could have felt remotely convinced that he has a clue how this will actually happen. His current strategy clearly isn’t working, yet all he promises is more of the same.

Obama’s whole attitude to ISIS has always been breathtakingly complacent, and now this casual approach has come back to haunt him.
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December 11, 2015 11:02am
ciaron

Once you have that “doctrinal and ethical rock” in place, you can then seek about how we should address the Syrian refugee crisis with the right disposition and actions of love – which will vary depending on whom the “neighbour” is, and what is their “need”.

Yes. But would you agree, that it does not necessarily entail importing them all here for instance (which I think was Don’s point)?
There may be far better, and more effective solutions which do not include the mass transplant of a people.

Then again, there may not be…
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December 11, 2015 11:07am
Don the Kiwi

Kimbo.

I am not sure from what you say, whether you are agreeing with me, or not.

That is precisely why I stated that I did not want to get into an in depth discussion of the parable.

I agree with everything you say, except comparing the Samaritan to the leader of the mongrel mob(that may have been the attitude of the Jews, but all were not Jews, especially in Samaria. Jericho, the city in the parable, was part of Samaria at that time.
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December 11, 2015 11:08am
SGA

@Don the Kiwi
The Samaritan was on his travels as well, not a local. Not only did he care for the man himself, he was willing to pay for his care as he continued his journey, offering to pay more, if required, on his return. If anything, the parable uses this act to emphasize the Samaritan’s charity.
You, on the other hand, turn this on its head – you point to the fact that the Samaritan did not lodge the man in his own house (how could he?) as some self-justification not to show charity to Muslims.
No, I don’t think you are a devil literally – it’s just an expression. However, if you ever wonder why the non-religious are wary of some of the religious …
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December 11, 2015 11:10am
Albert_Ross

Some what to my surprise I’ve got a lot of upticks for my earlier comment …

It seems from the SAFE business that we think it’s dishonest and wrong to blame and punish an entire community for the reprehensible actions of a few of them. I’m very happy to sign up to that as a general principle.

… surprised, because so much of what follows is contributions from people who appear determined to do precisely that – blame and punish an entire community for the reprehensible actions of a few of them.
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December 11, 2015 11:11am
Manolo

Totally blind and living in fantasyland:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3353979/Islam-not-need-reformation-Australia-s-Grand-Mufti-says-Muslim-faith-rejects-terrorism-Tony-Abbott-s-comments-play-hands-extremists.html

Muslim spiritual leaders including Australia’s Grand Mufti have hit back at former prime minister Tony Abbott after he claimed Islam needs to reform.

‘Islam is not in any need of reformation since with normative principles and practices of the religion allow Muslims to harmoniously coexist within pluralist societies that are based on the universal values of compassion and justice,’ Dr Mohammed said.
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December 11, 2015 11:14am
Jack5

Re Ed Snack at 10.09 on the Crimean war diversion (of the GD thread):

Yes Ed, the James Drysdale Wilson account of his being part of the 600 in the famous charge does depend on both whether he was telling the truth at the age of 82 to the Christchurch correspondent of the Otago Daily Times in 1912, and on the accuracy of the reporter on the precise title of Wilson’ regiment. The charge was famous long before the interview, as Tennyson wrote his poem shortly after the event. You would think someone at the time would have challenged the report if Wilson was lying. (Remember Dunedin was still a major city in the country then. I think that, until the early 1880s, it was bigger than Auckland).

Below is a link from the Otago Daily Times of 1915 to the obituary of another interesting Crimean veteran who died in Otago. This time to a man who was midshipman in the Crimean War, switched to the British Army, was posted to Canada during the American Civil War, then resigned and joined the Confederate Army and served at Chancellorsville and Gettysburg. After the US Civil War he returned to England, then moved first to Australia, then NZ, where he fought in the colonial forces against Titokowaru in Taranaki.

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=ODT19150218.2.69
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December 11, 2015 11:16am
simpleton1

The good Samaritan, used his own money, did not impose on the inn keeper in any way, but to do his best and will be recompensed for any extra on the account.

Nothing was asked of others. It was to be your decision in how you helped, now that you see the neighbour in need.
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December 11, 2015 11:17am
EAD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y55PUByhnQ
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December 11, 2015 11:22am
publicwatchpuppy

Good Morning Kiwibloggers!

There has been accusations of fowl play and corruption at the kindy! Someone is bringing lollies and giving them to other kids and telling them not to play with me

Its not fair or transparent

Yours Truly

Her Paddleboat
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December 11, 2015 11:23am
Jack5

Starboard at 10.54 comments on Milky’s post about the tortoise as the last survivor of the Crimean War. Have a look a this, Starboard. He wasn’t joking.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/3607053.stm
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December 11, 2015 11:28am
Scott

Good on the person using the good Samaritan parable in the context of Muslim immigration. Certainly the good Samaritan shows us that we need to be kind and that the Samaritan was kind was actually offensive to the religious leaders of the day who despised Samaritans.

However what we also notice is that the person who was hurt and beaten and robbed and was then helped by the Samaritan didn’t later on get a group of his mates together and invade Samaria and burn down their houses and attack their women.

Now in the case of the San Bernardino massacre many people were kind and welcomed the Muslim couple into the community and held a baby shower for them and befriended them.

Now for their kindness they were murdered in a preplanned attack which if the Muslim couple had their way would have resulted in many more deaths including first responding police officers and ambulance staff.

So can we ever guarantee that the nice Muslim couple next door whom we have been nothing but kind to, might get radicalised and we find a machine gun wielding couple shouting Allah Akhbar outside our door? That’s the problem and that’s why the good Samaritan solution of having the person not at your home but in a safe haven, in this case a safe zone in Syria makes a lot of sense.
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December 11, 2015 11:32am
SGA

Scott at 11:32 am

That’s the problem and that’s why the good Samaritan solution of having the person not at your home but in a safe haven,

Jesus wept.
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December 11, 2015 11:35am
Scott

SGA- Well that’s good if you are channelling Jesus! For a nonreligious person you obviously have great faith and know how Jesus would handle each situation.

Good on you – if I am wrong well that’s okay, I am glad that I’ve helped you get closer to God.
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December 11, 2015 11:47am
ciaron

With reference to the good Samaritan parable, I think, when you come across someone who has been badly injured, the normal response would be to either call an ambulance or take them to A&E, y’know… where they can get treatment.

It seems to me that there is no clear extrapolation (at least in metaphorical terms), to a national level.
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December 11, 2015 11:56am
stephieboy

Manolo,

Good Morning Britain: Piers Morgan tells right-wing American commentator Ann Coulter she should ‘be deported’ after anti-Muslim comments

The discussion arose from a petition to ban Donald Trump from the UK

http://www.standard.co.uk/stayingin/tvfilm/london-spy-what-you-need-to-know-about-new-bbc-two-thriller-starring-ben-whishaw-and-edward-holcroft-a3110431.html
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December 11, 2015 11:57am
Kimbo

@ Don the Kiwi

I am not sure from what you say, whether you are agreeing with me, or not.

That is precisely why I stated that I did not want to get into an in depth discussion of the parable.

Rather impossible when you initiate discussion with…

The left are calling all who don’t want Muslim migrants as mean sptirited and going against Christian teachings.

Rubbish.

The best Christian reference is the parable of the Good Samaritan, who found a man on the side of the road, robbed and beaten up.

So what did he do – did he take him to his home? No he did not. …It is not incumbent on anyone to allow strangers into their homes – in this case, country – but to provide a place of refuge for them until they can return to their home…

A little wisdom and discernment needs to be exercised, along with charity – the care and protection of our own people and citizens is our first responsibility..

I agree we are not obligated to allow Syrian refugees into our home, but (and this is where your over-application of the parable is incorrect)…we should not rule it out – and the parable itself provides no basis for doing so.

Furthermore, for those who seek the kingdom of God, loving your neighbour as yourself is the requirement taught by the parable, not (to quote you), …the care and protection of our own people and citizens is our first responsibility“. I think that is what Griff and SGA have picked up in your original post, to which you still seem oblivious.

I agree with everything you say, except comparing the Samaritan to the leader of the mongrel mob(that may have been the attitude of the Jews, but all were not Jews, especially in Samaria. Jericho, the city in the parable, was part of Samaria at that time.

Indeed all were not Jews…but your problem is you are viewing the elements in the story through the “prism” of what happened as a result of Jesus’ ministry and projecting it back onto Luke’s Gospel, not how it was ‘encountered’ at the time. So like those nice Renaissance paintings of the crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah, the term “Good Samaritan”, while ‘natural’ to us, was a ghastly and horrific contradiction in terms for those who had not experienced 2000 years of church history and the legacy of Christendom. You are committing the fallacy of a semantic anachronism. For example,

1. to whom the parable in its original setting in Luke directed? Answer: Jews

2. Yes, the man in the story was journeying “down” to Jericho (as you do when traveling from Jerusalem)…and that is why it is not surprising he was robbed and left for dead. It is the equivalent of a puny geeky Jewish guy in a neon cap walking home from his deli through South-Central LA at 3am with his life savings in a paper bag marked “$”!

3. To whom Jesus’ ministry in the Lukan corpus was directed? Answer: Jews. Samaritans don’t get a ‘look-in’ until Acts 8: 4-8. Where Jesus departs from that program (which was set in Luke 4: 14-21), such as the pagan centurion (Luke 7: 9) it is to note the ‘surprise element/subsequent open-doors of the kingdom of God with the giving of the Holy Spirit’ clearly and explicitly set forth by Luke in Acts 1:8, not to reflect local Jewish custom during Jesus’ ministry.

4. As per Hans Conzelmann https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Conzelmann

…the use of geography in Luke is interesting, as Jesus, like other Jews, avoided Samaria – but the traveler in his story foolishly didn’t, to his not-unexpected cost!

5. The exception in John’s gospel (chapter 4) actually confirms the Jew/Samaritan antipathy and provides an insight into the “channel setting” for ordinary Jewish/Samaritan (non-)relations. Yes, Jesus “had to go through Samaria” in verse 4…but not for any geographic reason! Most pilgrims between Galilee and Jerusalem went around rather than journey as the crow flies. So why does Jesus do it? Because he has a “date with destiny” with a Samaritan woman (“come see a man who told me all things I ever did! Could this be the Christ?”, verse 29)…who, true to form had very early in the piece highlighted the Jew/Samaritan ‘problem’,

vs 9 “The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans)

… and verse 20, Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.

Don’t worship in Jerusalem (in defiance of Deuteronomy’s basic command that true worship is only in one place)…then from a law-abiding Jewish perspective (as the questioner in Jesus story was “…an expert in the law…” Luke 10: 25), then you are a heretic/infidel, no matter what shared heritage you have.
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December 11, 2015 11:58am
Manolo

Breeding like rabbits in the United States:
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/12/10/muslim-population-u-s-double-2050-study-shows/

Islam will become the second-largest religious group in the United States by 2050, according to a report from the Pew Research Center.

Islam’s spectacular birthrates, the relative youth of Muslims and the increase in Muslim immigration into the US combine to account for its accelerated growth rate. Muslims currently make up approximately 0.9% of the adult population, or 1.8 million Muslim adults.

As the fastest-growing religion in America, by the year 2050, the number of Muslims is projected to more than double. Those identifying with Islam are projected to comprise 2.1% of the population.
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December 11, 2015 12:02pm
Don the Kiwi

You, on the other hand, turn this on its head – you point to the fact that the Samaritan did not lodge the man in his own house (how could he?) as some self-justification not to show charity to Muslims.

SGA.

You are reading far too much into what I said. Are you suggesting that the Samaritan should have taken the victim into his home? I have expressed my view, and your opinion of my motive is quite false and judgemental.
Yes, he was a fellow traveller, and took the victim to the Inn to be nursed back to health, but how do you know that he may lived, say, half a day’s walk from the incident?
The point is, as others have shown, that he treated the injured man as his neighbour, proving he was a good neighbour, and showed him mercy and compassion and helped him, despite their differences – that is the point of the story, but there are nuances that can be taken from the story also.
In other words, to demonstrate mercy and compassion and good neighbourliness, you don’t have to put someone into your own house – you can offer that anywhere. I am pretty sure that many of these displaced Syrians would rather stay close to their own land so that they could move back to their home when peace is restored – I certainly would if I were in their situation.

Enough argument on this point – I will continue trying to live my life as well as I can – like everyone else, I am not always successful either.
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December 11, 2015 12:03pm
stephieboy

ciiaron , I think the dilemma about what is a very straight foreword parable comes when dealing with modern day pariahs like Muslims . A similar dilemma that Judeans had when dealing with the detestable Samaritans i

Obviously Christ had a hard job in driving a simple message home , then and now !
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December 11, 2015 12:05pm
sam green

@Scott 11:32

So would you feel comfortable if Tim Groser and his wife lived next door to you?
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December 11, 2015 12:06pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@publicwatchpuppy

Gosh is everyone here neglecting your plight?

I’m sure most of today’s posters would tell you to forgive your nasty playmates, but my advice is to ask mummy to pack a big box of choccies in your playlunch tomorrow and then scoff the lot in front of the meanies.
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December 11, 2015 12:06pm
KevinH

The fact is that Moslem refugee’s will benefit from Christian charity, Christian nations will accept these refugee’s. The question that needs to be addressed is why isn’t there the same level of support from Moslem nations? Amittedly Jordan and Turkey are bearing the brunt of the refugee crisis whereas other nations in the region could be doing more.
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December 11, 2015 12:09pm
ciaron

stephieboy (8,675 comments) says:
December 11th, 2015 at 12:05 pm
ciiaron , I think the dilemma about what is a very straight foreword parable comes when dealing with modern day pariahs like Muslims . A similar dilemma that Judeans had when dealing with the detestable Samaritans i

Obviously Christ had a hard job in driving a simple message home , then and now !

I think you’re confused.
This is not about ‘getting your hands dirty’ with people we aren’t comfortable with. It is not even about should we help (both are given). It is about what does that help look like. Perhaps the parable in question isn’t helpful in this respect, because it speaks to a personal level, when the question at hand (shall we re-settle them here) is on a National level.
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December 11, 2015 12:14pm
EAD

Israeli/Jewish hypocrisy example #797911

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/donald-trump-postpones-israel-visit-after-i-become-president-us-1532740

Donald Trump has cancelled his planned visit to Israel, claiming it will take place at a later date “after I become president of the United States”.

His decision comes after Israeli politicians from all sides of the political spectrum called for the visit by the Republican frontrunner to be blocked after he called for a ban on all Muslims from travelling to the US.

At least 37 Israeli legislators signed a letter to prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu calling on him to cancel the meeting, which was supposed to take place on 28 December.

Netanyahu was forced to reject Trump’s anti-Muslim remarks with a statement. In it, the right-wing leader said that the state of Israel “respects all religions and strictly guarantees the rights of all its citizens.
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December 11, 2015 12:15pm
publicwatchpuppy

@Maggie

Great thinking Maggie! I am already in trouble at kindy for not paying my donations and Im scared they would take the chocolate from me though!

I have one good friend at Kindy and he shares his strudel’s which is nice

B
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December 11, 2015 12:18pm
stephieboy

EAD, does it disturb you that Israel has learnt the reality of learning how to get along with the many Muslims in their midst ?
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December 11, 2015 12:20pm
Kimbo

@ ciaron

…It is about what does that help look like. Perhaps the parable in question isn’t helpful in this respect, because it speaks to a personal level, when the question at hand (shall we re-settle them here) is on a National level.

Um, sorry to be a clever-dick, but that is a common mistake we of the West often make – assuming as we do that life, spirituality and ethics is primarily “individual/personal”, rather “corporate” as well. Sure, there is an individual who comes to the rescue in the parable…but the parable was told in a corporate setting, and highlighted issues of shared nationality.

Plus as this a “parable of the kingdom of God”, it presumes those seeking to fulfill Moses’ and Jesus’ command are empowered by God’s special grace given through his Holy Spirit. So if there is a “corporate people” who need to step up, then in the first instance it is the church. But if vestiges of Christendom/the idea of the gospel “seeping down into a national/cultural consciousness”, then sure, the church can be the voice of a prophet…and Caesar in the form of the likes of Merkel and the UN might pick up the gauntlet.

But Don the Kiwi does have a point. When it suits certain non-Christian sectors of society (he mentions the “left”, but the right do it too) they will quote and insist on the performing of a Biblical/Kingdom of God imperative…but there is no way they will implement all of it (e.g., the left won’t implement a legislative program of biblical sexual morality…and the right won’t turn their swords/guns into plowshares!) 😉

Tricky and often pragmatic/highly selective and ultimately irreconcilable thing this “Christian nation” – whatever it is meant to mean! But, as you say, ciaron, as long as the Syrian refugees get quick, wise and (in the circumstances) adequate assistance…
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December 11, 2015 12:30pm
Manolo

A dissenting voice in the Democratic Party:
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/12/loretta-sanchez-muslims-caliphate-terrorism-216656

A prominent Democratic congresswoman and Senate candidate said that up to 20% of Muslims want to establish an Islamic caliphate and would use “terrorism” to achieve that goal.

Rep. Loretta Sanchez said Muslims seeking a caliphate are willing to use terrorism and violence to impose their views on the Western world.
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December 11, 2015 12:33pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@publicwatchpuppy

Na, the kindy won’t take the choccies from you, coz then everyone will know that they are being very mean to you.

Besides a little bit of blackmail could go down well here; remember if the other kiddies weren’t sharing with you, then the Kindy is not a socialist paradise.

Your strudel mate sounds lovely; is his name David?
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December 11, 2015 12:39pm
ciaron

Kimbo,
I think that’s an interesting question. I guess I default to assessing parables and the like on a personal level, simply because that is the extent of my influence. 🙂
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December 11, 2015 12:52pm
Jack5

A Scots landlord refuses an Australian woman as a text because he thinks Aussies are drunken racists.

Talk about a pot calling a kettle black (is that expression allowable in this PC age?)

The Scots are champion pissheads. It’s in their genetic make-up. As you go down New Zealand and reach the south, where Scots genes predominate, I think you will find the amount of booze drunk per head soars.

As for racism, what the present-day Leftist Scots say about the English is appalling.

Confirms that the good true and real Scots emigrated to Canada, the USA, NZ and Australia a century and more ago.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/75001176/aussie-backpacker-barred-as-australians-are-drunks-and-racists
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December 11, 2015 12:55pm
SGA

Don the Kiwi at 12:03 pm

In other words, to demonstrate mercy and compassion and good neighbourliness, you don’t have to put someone into your own house

But Don, you twisted that message out of the parable of the Good Samaritan (as you clearly did above, and Scott too), which is just self-serving nonsense. Even a non-religious person like me can see through that.
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December 11, 2015 12:59pm
Ed Snack

Kimbo, I suggest you are reading your own prejudices and interpretations into the parable when you refer to the way the person responded to Jesus by referring the “the one who had mercy on him…”. That strikes me as a ritual response rather than a literal one.

You need to consider the fact that this would be written down many years after the fact as an orally transmitted recollection, possibly collated from multiple sources. The words, verbatim, of those present is almost certainly is not. The first known extant written gospels are generations after the events although prior written versions (such as the theoretical “Q” source) may have existed. The only authentic written sources from the time are the various Pauline letters (written 20 years after) and Josephus, also written after about 70 AD. Paul never met Jesus (though he did meet and have significant disputes with disciples such as James and Peter who had met and travelled with Jesus), and Josephus wasn’t born until 37 AD.

So you are rather over-interpreting, or perhaps even offering exactly the interpretation that the writer wanted when he wrote the passage as he wrote it. But as an authentic critique of what Jesus actually “said”, no way of knowing.

And just to add, the Samaritans of course regarded the Judaic Jews as heretics, they claim to represent the original abrahamic tribes of Ephrain, Manasseh, Levi, and Benjamin who were not removed to Babylon; the Judaic practitioners were to them the returnees who followed a deviant branch of the faith. The was significant feeling between the two, as can be imagined, but following the return the Samaritans were in the minority and were treated as inferiors. As noted, a very small community of Samaritans remains extant; according to Wikipedia some 777 as at January 2015. As they live in Israeli controlled territory, they may survive a bit longer, longer than most other minority religious groups are likely to in the Middle East. The original religious “schism” is however still open, if a Samaritan wants to become an orthodox Jew, they apparently have to renounce any belief that Mount Gerizim rather than Temple Mount, is the sanctified site where Jehovah wanted a temple built and was the site of the near sacrifice of Isaac. Old divisions die hard, and as religious divisions go, there possible aren’t any older that we know of.

Apologies for rambling into the historical.
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December 11, 2015 12:59pm
mikenmild

Only the most hypocritical of Christians would use the parable of the Good Samaritan to justify excluding refugees from his country. Kiwiblog provides daily examples of Christian hypocrisy.
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December 11, 2015 1:01pm
Kimbo

@ ciaron

I guess I default to assessing parables and the like on a personal level, simply because that is the extent of my influence. 🙂

Not surprising. Just as an aside, they are arguably the most difficult parts of the Scriptures to interpret correctly/well. At least apocalyptic, like the Revelation looks ‘weird’, so other than the Dispensationalists who claim to have the secret code (often today’s newspaper headlines summarising the political situation in the Middle East), most interpreters are circumspect and wary.

In contrast, the parables are seemingly accessible stories (which was part of Jesus’ intent in using them), but

1. there is always a twist in the tail/tale where Jesus is seeking to undermine the expectations of the original hearers, after they have “emotionally invested” in the story elements

2. the way the particular Gospel writers edit/arrange them within their overall work, and with the perspective the writer (and reader) has of Jesus’ overall “kingdom of God” ministry means the parables are like “frames” in an overall gallery, not a moral homily as with Aesop’s fables – initial appearances to the contrary.

They are what they say they are: parables of the Kingdom of God
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December 11, 2015 1:01pm
starboard

If talking shit was music, you’d be an orchestra MM.
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December 11, 2015 1:03pm
publicwatchpuppy

@Maggy

No David chases me around and pulls my hair and teases me.

Kim brings strudel for me
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December 11, 2015 1:16pm
Kimbo

@ Ed Snack

…Apologies for rambling into the historical.

As I am prone to that, too Ed Snack, so no problem. But in one sentence or less, can you please tell me your “So what?”/point? That the Scriptures, including their composition are complex and took place over a period of time, so interpretation is tricky?

Agreed.

But mine is also that knowledge and careful study of the Scriptures’ historical setting (to which you have alluded) and the grammatical details in the particular texts, as well as educated examination of the (oral, collection, writing and editing) processes which produced the final authoritative canonical “form” are for honouring the practical purpose for for which God gave it:

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (II Timothy 3: 16)

Which means, we should be coming to as firm yet provisional a conclusion as possible as to

1. What does it say? (and not say!?

2. What does it mean? (and not mean!)

3. So what? (in terms of what do we now do…)

…and as Luke, above all Gospel writers presented Jerusalem and her temple as the ‘place from which salvation begins and flows’..I’ll pass on according any significance (from the perspective of the New Testament) on Mt Gerizim…
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December 11, 2015 1:16pm
Shawn Herles

The Samaritans were a small, largely powerless, and largely non-violent group of people.

Islam is a large, powerful, and extremely violent group of people who are responsible for tens of thousands of terrorist attacks over the last decades.

Claiming that treating Islam and Islamic immigration with serious caution is a violation of the parable of the good Samaritan is a bloody stupid argument, which given that the original claim came from a rabidly anti-Christian atheist toking on a bong is hardly surprising.

Nor is it surprising that Kimberly is on the side of atheists and liberals, again. That seems to be his natural home.

Large scale Islamic immigration has bought terrorism and crime to Europe, North America and Australia on an epic scale. I do not think Jesus would approve of the actions of the Muslim immigrants in Britain who gang raped, beat and tortured over a thousand young girls, some as young as 11.

According to Scripture it is the responsibility of the state to hold the sword, for the protection of the weak in particular. In allowing almost unrestrained Islamic immigration, the various states of the West have failed in that duty.

There is nothing Christian about allowing Islamic immigration to continue.
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December 11, 2015 1:16pm
mikenmild

You should be careful of your anal obsession, starboard.
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December 11, 2015 1:19pm
mikenmild

Are you really that stupid, Shawn? Silly question. Don started this by claiming that the parable of the good Samaritan was relevant to not helping Muslim refuges.
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December 11, 2015 1:21pm
BananaLama

The French establishment is going all out to stop the FN gaining any seats. Talk about a dirty election this one stinks!

The only silver linings i can see is that the socialists who hate democracy are going to have NO representation at all in two French regions, are unlikely to stop the FN gaining control over one French region and are more than likely to become a minor party after the French parliamentary elections in 2017.

I don’t see how young blue collar voters are ever going to forgive them.
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December 11, 2015 1:22pm
Nookin

Maggie.
While I am sure that you are giving advice with the best of intentions, I know from personal experience that choccies are not good for Watchpuppies or indeed any sorts of puppies.

Choccies tend to have them bouncing off walls and ceilings and generally making a mess everywhere. The idea of doing that to an already hyperactive and boisterous watchpuppy, particularly one that cannot stop yapping fills me with dread.
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December 11, 2015 1:24pm
Kimbo

@ mikemild

Are you really that stupid, Shawn? Silly question. Don started this by claiming that the parable of the good Samaritan was relevant to not helping Muslim refuges.

Leave him. I am the latest target of Witness/Legio XII’s obsessional ire, and the present cause for him to now regularly break his self-imposed exile. A few days a go I posted on a couple of occasions (in a thread that may have involved you, btw) “the treatment of Jews by Islam was comparatively better than under Christendom at roughly the same time”…and yesterday he goes twisting it to call me a liar/Muslim apologist/liberal, by saying I said Jews “lived in peace” in Muslim nations. He knows very well the difference between the two statements and is just doing it for the reaction/engagement/attention.

Like the wounded man on the side of the road on the way down to Jerusalem, be like the levite and priest, and leave him be! 😉 Perhaps mad, bad, sad Shawn will die and a sensible blogger may arise…but I’m not expecting it any time soon…
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December 11, 2015 1:32pm
Griff

What is a Samaritan in the context of the time the passage was written Don?
The story has a different meaning hidden within the knowledge of what a Samaritan was to most people hearing it at that time.
I suggest you find out that meaning and dwell on the implications.
Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 22

Ain’t that the truth mike.
The parable is not about helping strangers it is about people you judge harshly helping strangers .

Their fuckin book but they willfully ignore the contents .

I dont believe but.
If there is a god as they maintain he is going to look a lot better on someone who doesn’t believe yet acts justly than someone who claims he does but acts like an arse wipe.
If he doesn’t he can go fuck himself because I wouldent want to hang with a bunch of hypocrites for eternity its bad enough putting up with them for three score and ten.
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December 11, 2015 1:32pm
mikenmild

At least being a Pastafarian you can be comforted by the thought of spending eternity with like-minded people enjoys the strippers and beer volcano.
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December 11, 2015 1:37pm
Kimbo

@ Ed Snack

…Paul never met Jesus…

Road to Damascus?

I Corinthians 15: 8

…8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born…
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December 11, 2015 1:38pm
Shawn Herles

“I am the latest target of Witness/Legio XII’s obsessional ire”

Twice recently, including today, you have attacked someone for playing the man instead of the ball, and here you are doing exactly that.

I am not Witness/Legio and as I know I am not, and therefore know you have no evidence for such, you are bearing false witness.

I guess the rules you insist others follow are optional for you.

Your double standards and hypocrisy are showing.
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December 11, 2015 1:40pm
Don the Kiwi

mikenmild (17,883 comments) says:
December 11th, 2015 at 1:21 pm
Are you really that stupid, Shawn? Silly question. Don started this by claiming that the parable of the good Samaritan was relevant to not helping Muslim refuges.

mm.
That is a deliberate distortion of what i said.

I did NOT say that we should not help Muslim refugees.

What I did say is that they are best served by helping them with safe zones in their own land. That was the purpose of my quoting – briefly and simply, without in depth scriptural exegesis (that Kimbo excels in) -the Parable of the Good Samaritan.

Get over you prejudices Mikey – they do you no good service.

Edit: Hell mm – I even uptick some of your comments, but not the ones like this. 🙂
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December 11, 2015 1:41pm
Shawn Herles

Mikenmild, are you really that stupid? I was responding to Griff’s claim, obviously, as I mentioned Griff, not Don, in my post. Duh.
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December 11, 2015 1:42pm
ciaron

mikenmild (17,883 comments) says:
December 11th, 2015 at 1:21 pm
Are you really that stupid, Shawn? Silly question. Don started this by claiming that the parable of the good Samaritan was relevant to not helping Muslim refuges.

No Mike. Don started by saying helping them doesn’t oblige us to bring them here.

I make no comment on the validity of Don’s argument (But I do think we need to discuss how we best help the refugees) but to say he thought we shouldn’t help is not simply true.

Edit: I’m not the quickest on the keyboard and others have made the point…
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December 11, 2015 1:43pm
stephieboy

Kimbo , a familiar litany from Shawn Herles that we are all totalitarian liberal Muslim apologists !

Ciaron, but obviously you would aid a Syrian refugee if the were victims of an assault or injured in a car accident ?
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December 11, 2015 1:44pm
Shawn Herles

Don, yes I read your original post, and you were very clear that you think we should help Muslim refugees. Mikenmild and Griff are not known on KB for honestly representing other peoples views, especially when it comes to Christians.
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December 11, 2015 1:45pm
SGA

Don the Kiwi at 1:41 pm

What I did say is that they are best served by helping them with safe zones in their own land. That was the purpose of my quoting – briefly and simply, without in depth scriptural exegesis (that Kimbo excels in) -the Parable of the Good Samaritan.

For heavens sake Don, you should be ashamed of yourself for continuing to twist that parable to that end.
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December 11, 2015 1:46pm
Manolo

….we are all ~~totalitarian~~ gullible liberal Muslim apologists!

Accuracy above all, so I made a small correction for you.
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December 11, 2015 1:47pm
ciaron

stephieboy (8,680 comments) says:
December 11th, 2015 at 1:44 pm
Kimbo , a familiar litany from Shawn Herles that we are all totalitarian liberal Muslim apologists !

Ciaron, but obviously you would aid a Syrian refugee if the were victims of an assault or injured in a car accident ?

Having basic first aid training, I would for anyone I encountered in a similar situation… so, what’s your point?
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December 11, 2015 1:50pm
Shawn Herles

“A few days a go I posted on a couple of occasions (in a thread that may have involved you, btw) “the treatment of Jews by Islam was comparatively better than under Christendom at roughly the same time”…and yesterday he goes twisting it to call me a liar/Muslim apologist/liberal, by saying I said Jews “lived in peace” in Muslim nations. He knows very well the difference between the two statements and is just doing it for the reaction/engagement/attention. ”

No Kimbo, you said that Jews lived in peace under Islam, while it was Christian Europe that was solely responsible for their persecution.

I posted two presentations of historical facts that clearly showed that Jews did not live in peace under Islam, and that their treatment was not comparatively better under Islam. In fact they showed that it was much the same if not worse under Islam.

You’re being dishonest, again.
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December 11, 2015 1:51pm
Don the Kiwi

SGA.

You have your opinion — I have mine.
Let’s leave it at that.
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December 11, 2015 1:52pm
SGA

@Don the Kiwi
Ok – but if it comes up again, I will feel moved to comment again – fair enough?
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December 11, 2015 1:55pm
RF

There appears to be a light at the end of Penny’s tunnel. If you pardon the pun… We all know that she has hard decisions to make concerning alternative accomodation after the council takes her house. Maybe his honour will feel sorry for her and not throw away the key so that will enable her only supporters Cha & Sam Green to take turns looking after her. In a caring sort of way. If that does not work out I suspect she will have an old tent left over from the illegal land occupying days.

Oh to be free……..
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December 11, 2015 1:55pm
mikenmild

Don implied that the parable of the Good Samaritan meant that we did not have to accept refuges – we could offer them assistance elsewhere.
I’m really not sure that this is what Jesus would say if Don asked him whether countries should accept Syrian refugees.
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December 11, 2015 2:00pm
publicwatchpuppy

@Nookin

Are you one of the mean kids from the right side of the playground, us on the left don’t play with you, especially that David! He is sooo mean.

Do you get free lollies? I bet you do and you don’t ever think of those who miss out on the lollies!
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December 11, 2015 2:00pm
Kimbo

@ Ed Snack

Kimbo, I suggest you are reading your own prejudices and interpretations into the parable when you refer to the way the person responded to Jesus by referring the “the one who had mercy on him…”. That strikes me as a ritual response rather than a literal one.

Maybe. I was repeating an observation I remember a commentator making concerning the text. Compare also to the subtle use of pronouns in the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15: 11-32) – which is told against the background of Luke 15: 1-3:

1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

3 Then Jesus told them this parable…

Back to the parable itself. The older brother, who is indicative of the listening Pharisees’ attitude does not refer to “my brother” (as the father does in verse 27 and 32). Instead, in verse 30, “But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!”

Like the Good Samaritan, Luke has a habit of using “unlikely rogues” (the prodigal son, the shrewd/unjust manager in 16: 1-8, the unjust judge in 18: 1-8) to make his point about the “unlikely” constituency of the Kingdom of God compared to the expectation of prevailing Jewish piety, so it is unsurprising if Jesus’ listeners at times reflect that piety…so the readers can take note…and go thou and not do likewise! 😉

Which reminds me of the joke about the Sunday School teacher who asked, “who was unhappy when the prodigal son returned?”, and one of the students answered, “The fattened calf”!
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December 11, 2015 2:01pm
Tauhei Notts

Much has been written here about the parable of the Good Samaritan who helped out the poor blighter who had been beaten to a pulp.
Imagine though, that the caring person who approached that poor beaten up man was a card carrying member of the NZ Labour Party. Such a person would comfort the injured man with these words;
“Whoever did that to you needs help.”
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December 11, 2015 2:04pm
stephieboy

ciaron, I believe that was the point of the parable that Jesus felt we should extend a helping hand to those in need be they Jew, Samaritan or Muslim etc .
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December 11, 2015 2:05pm
stigie

Lets not feel too sorry for Penny RF after she loses the hovel, im sure DG will find it in his heart and take her in for the share “pleasure” it will give him with her at the ranch !~
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December 11, 2015 2:05pm
Tauhei Notts

Good news is not news.
I was reading this morning that the price of export logs to China has risen from US$90 per tonne to US$120 per tonne between August and November, this year.
Did anybody see anything in the news about that?
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December 11, 2015 2:06pm
Shawn Herles

“ciaron, I believe that was the point of the parable that Jesus felt we should extend a helping hand to those in need be they Jew, Samaritan or Muslim etc .”

Which is what Don was saying stephie, clearly. He was simply arguing, and rightly, that helping refugees does not necessitate increasing Islamic immigration into the West, and nothing in the parable in question says we should.

It was the KB Islamic Apologists Club that deliberately distorted what Don said and had a beat up on him for violating Liberal political correctness.

But then like your argument that there is nothing to be concerned about with regards to Islamic immigration, and Kimbo’s argument that it was the founding of Israel that created Islamic hatred of the Jews, dishonesty is the name of the game.

Apologists for Islam are liars.
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December 11, 2015 2:21pm
Kimbo

@ Tauhei Notts

“Whoever did that to you needs help.”

Priceless!

Um, in the first instance the parable is a presentation of the Kingdom of God imperative to help whomever you can who is in need…not work out the secondary aspects of what that doesn’t (or for that matter does) mean.

So Don the Kiwi is kinda right.

But I would think it is kinda incongruous to, in the first instance, think of all the ways to do it that will not inconvenience you as much…when you are meant to love your neighbour as yourself.

But he has a point that folks who otherwise despise much of the authority of Scriptures are strange people to be placing Biblical imperatives on others…especially as their idea of “loving their neighbour” looks suspiciously in many cases and in the first instance like vacating personal responsibility…and co-opting the resources of others via the instrument of the state.

For what it is worth, I think we should do both/and – continue to take refugees (including maybe those from Syria) as per our UN commitments, and give assistance to international aid efforts
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December 11, 2015 2:22pm
ciaron

stephieboy (8,682 comments) says:
December 11th, 2015 at 2:05 pm
ciaron, I believe that was the point of the parable that Jesus felt we should extend a helping hand to those in need be they Jew, Samaritan or Muslim etc .

Yeah, nah. It’s about exposing the Legalism and hardness of heart of the upper echelons of Jewish society (Pharisees, teachers of the law etc.), by showing them people who they hate, and look down on, doing things the way they should be done (i.e. God’s way, which goes beyond the ‘letter’ of the law). In this particular example, the Priest and the Levite are more concerned with maintaining their dignity (among other things) than helping a fellow Jew.

I’m sure some of my learned brothers or sisters will clarify and expand as and where required. 🙂
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December 11, 2015 2:22pm
mikenmild

Don raised the Good Samaritan parable as a desperate attempt to find scriptural justification for refusing to accept refugees.
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December 11, 2015 2:23pm
KevinH

@Stephieboy
Today you exceed yourself with a couple of bizarre comments:

Obviously Christ had a hard job in driving a simple message home , then and now !

EAD, does it disturb you that Israel has learnt the reality of learning how to get along with the many Muslims in their midst ?

Firstly Christ’s message of love and forgiveness is the most singular outstanding message that reverberates throughout Christianity today and in the past. If you care to watch the Sunday morning services on TV, or attend any Christian church you will find that Christ’s message is often repeated, especially now when the world is confronted with the moral dilemma of absorbing thousands of Moslem’s into their communities.

Secondly Israel knows full well how to handle the followers of Islam, it is a battle that has raged for centuries between them and not something Israel has learned recently. It was interesting to observe Netanyahu join the chorus of condemnation of Trumps remarks but of course that was a political comment from Netanyahu.
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December 11, 2015 2:27pm
Kimbo

@ ciaron

Yeah, nah. It’s about exposing the Legalism and hardness of heart of the upper echelons of Jewish society (Pharisees, teachers of the law etc.), by showing them people who they hate, and look down on, doing things the way they should be done (i.e. God’s way, which goes beyond the ‘letter’ of the law). In this particular example, the Priest and the Levite are more concerned with maintaining their dignity (among other things) than helping a fellow Jew.

I’m sure some of my learned brothers or sisters will clarify and expand as and where required. 🙂

Not presuming to be learned, but sounds good to me. “It’s obviously not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturer of dairy products”: –

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xLUEMj6cwA
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December 11, 2015 2:34pm
Odakyu-sen

We got our first real Christmas tree this year. My wife borrowed a Christmas tree stand (with built-in water bowl) from one of the ladies in her ikebana (flower arranging) group. With a little luck, the tree will remain fresh enough for my wife to recycle it when she makes a New Year’s kadomatsu display https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SCtVm95SvI a week after Christmas.

It’s kind of neat that we can use one tree for the decorations of two different cultures (one Western and one Japanese).

My daughters are busy decorating the tree while I work in my home office, but I can smell the pine scent. I hope our cats will not attempt to climb the tree.

Devoy was wrong. Everyone can enjoy Christmas in their own way! There’s nothing exclusive about it!
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December 11, 2015 2:39pm
stephieboy

kevin H, I notice the great facility how certain christian groups are careful to ensure that the gospel of love is provisional and indeed partial .Certainly not the unconditional love that Jesus was preaching .

I think the dilemma is of accepting Syrian refugees some of whom happen to Christian or Yazidis . Most are Muslim and I think that is where the stumbling block and is possibly for many of those on and watching Sunday morning TV and elsewhere .

Your aware that the Knesset has a prayer room set aside for it’s Muslim members ?
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December 11, 2015 2:41pm
ciaron

Ok, this has been beaten, teased out and beaten again, so lets change the focus away from “what does the parable of the Good Samaritan really mean” to “what is the best way we can help Syrian refugees”

Personally, just sending money to some aid organisation doesn’t seem like enough of a response. But we also have to consider whether depositing refugees here, in what I assume would be a a fairly traumatic experience, is the actually the best thing for them. So, is there somewhere they can go which won’t be so traumatic, and how can we help with that?

Of course the answer might be no…
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December 11, 2015 2:43pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@publicwatchpuppy

now about your friend Kimmy….. do you think he is true friend or is he just using you?

It could be time for you to have a wee girl chat with mummy. She might want to check out Kimmy’s mummy & daddy….. they mightn’t be NICE people. Mummy might also teach you how to flutter your eyelids at nasty David. I bet that will melt his cold heart.
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December 11, 2015 2:47pm
Andrei

The vast majority of Syrian refugees are in Syria itself under the protective wing of the Government in Damascus – the Good Samaritan thing would be to send aid to these people.

Taking refugees en mass is not a good thing to do – Syria looses the people it needs to rebuild itself and we end up with enclaves of people not culturally attuned to our society

Taking individual refugees/families in special circumstances on a case by case basis is valid Christian and useful and these people can be integrated into general society
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December 11, 2015 2:52pm
Captain Mainwaring

I’m missing the daily readings from Witness. Where are you my friend?
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December 11, 2015 3:01pm
stephieboy

Andrei, a reminder 2.1 million refugees are in Turkey , 1.3 million Lebanon and over a half a million in Jordan. Similar Iraq !
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December 11, 2015 3:04pm
publicwatchpuppy

@maggy

I LIKE YOU!!!

Kim buys me lots of nice things and shares strudel, he must be a true friend!

I am going to hold a meeting in the sandpit to talk about fair sharing of lollies, that should fix it! If everyone makes me the boss of the sandpit and the lollies I can eat, whoops, share them fairly!!!

Do you like paddleboats Maggie?
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December 11, 2015 3:04pm
Andrei

Stephieboy – 7,632,500. in Syria itself according to the UN and there is no way that these people can be re- homed in the West even if they wanted to be
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December 11, 2015 3:12pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Do you like paddleboats Maggie?

I do. I’ve just got back from a turn on the duckpond with my handyman.

http://imageshotfrogau.blob.core.windows.net/companies/Lakes-Entrance-Paddle-Boats-Catamaran-Hire/images/Lakes-Entrance-Paddle-Boats_50765_image.JPG

If that sandpit meeting doesn’t work out, I’ll send my mongrels up to bark at them.
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December 11, 2015 3:15pm
stephieboy

Andrei according to the UNHCR there are a total of 4,283,224 registered refuges .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War

What planet Putin, Assad and are you living on ?
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December 11, 2015 3:16pm
blazeoflight

@KevinH

Secondly Israel knows full well how to handle the followers of Islam, it is a battle that has raged for centuries between them and not something Israel has learned recently.

Oh dear. Did we get an ‘E’ for history at school?

First, Israel, the nation state, was only created in 1948. While it’s not too far from my year of birth, I’m not ‘centuries’ old, no matter how much I feel I am, some days.

Second, from around 500BC Jews in Europe (indigenous Europeans, by the way) came under sustained attack not by Muslims (the Ottoman Empire provided refuge for Jews fleeing Christian Spain) but from their fellow Europeans, who ‘othered’ them in the same manner as Israeli Jews today ‘other’ Palestinians.

Thirdly, the current situation in Palestine was caused by an invasion of European Jews, who arrived late 19th/early 20th century with malevolent intent, aided, abetted and supported by equally malevolent, duplicitous Western powers, and later joined by WWII survivors.

Too few people understand that these western powers supported Jewish immigration into Palestine because they didn’t want them in the own nations.
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December 11, 2015 3:16pm
Kimbo

@ Captain Mainwaring

I’m missing the daily readings from Witness. Where are you my friend?

You have to call him by the right name (look around – you’ll find it), and then post something like this:

Kimbo (3,946 comments) says:
December 8th, 2015 at 10:43 am

Your distaste for Hitler is not in line with what your previous Islamist leaders thought of him. The Muslim way of life would have fitted in perfectly with Hitler’s regime, be it the hero worship of Allah or the Führer; and the icing on the top- hating Jews. Discuss with your high priest next time you enter the mosque via the rear door.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html

—————————————-

Ah, yes, the Grand Mufti again – echoing the load of rubbish Benyamin Netanyahu trundled out a few weeks ago. The guy who called for a jihad against Jews in Palestine during World War II…and hardly any local Muslims responded (those who did were from the Balkans fighting another round of ethnic cleansing with Serbs)…while at the same time the (admittedly equally non-representative) Zionist terrorists, the Stern Gang/Lehi were trying to do a deal with the Nazis…and fighting the British as they were the “immediate enemy”.

If you want to trace current antipathy towards Jews in Islam (which admittedly accesses traditions in the Koran), then you have to look to 1948 and the establishment of the modern state of israel for the reason/excuse. Zionism: a Middle Eastern solution to a traditional European problem (Anti-Semitism), which almost inevitably spread the problem to the Middle East…

History – a resource to bash your opponents over the head rather than a resource to learn from ?

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2015/12/general_debate_8_december_2015.html#comments

…to summon him like Biggie Smalls! Don’t expect him to be reasonable, though – including taking into account your clear prior references to previous Jewish persecutions under Islam, which, nonetheless, were comparatively not as bad as the violence they suffered from Christendom.
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December 11, 2015 3:18pm
blazeoflight

@Stephieboy

Andrei is referring to IDPs.

Your link is for those who have left Syria.
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December 11, 2015 3:21pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Here’s a conundrum for today’s theologians…

A sick foreign man defecates outside a lady’s house. He enters the house with lower garments removed.
What is the lady to do?
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December 11, 2015 3:30pm
Andrei

Andrei according to the UNHCR there are a total of 4,283,224 registered refuges

Those are externally displaced people and they come from Syria, Iraq and Yemen

I am talking about internally displaced people in Syria
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December 11, 2015 3:31pm
blazeoflight

@Maggy

Dial 111 and ask for Murray.
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December 11, 2015 3:32pm
Jack5

Re Maggy at 3.30….

What is the lady to do?

Buy a pitbull.
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December 11, 2015 3:34pm
Jack5

Andrei at 2.52 has the right way to address refugees’ plight.
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December 11, 2015 3:35pm
KevinH

@blaze
Oh dear you didn’t get my inference.I’ll rephrase it for your benefit. I of course meant Jews.
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December 11, 2015 3:37pm
publicwatchpuppy

@Maggy

I would bite the dangly bits, meant in a caring way

PWP
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December 11, 2015 3:38pm
stephieboy

Andrei, and not all under the protection of Assad and living in the terrorties under his control ,

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34189117

Russia’s refugee quota ?
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December 11, 2015 3:41pm
Kimbo

@ Maggy Wassilieff

Here’s a conundrum for today’s theologians…

A sick foreign man defecates outside a lady’s house. He enters the house with lower garments removed.
What is the lady to do?

Not, “Go thou and do likewise…”.
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December 11, 2015 3:42pm
blazeoflight

@KevinH

Still wrong.
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December 11, 2015 3:45pm
Kimbo

@ Maggy Wassilieff

…and starting with those details, I’m struggling for a “the Kingdom of God is like…” ‘angle’ in.
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December 11, 2015 3:47pm

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Hompaddock
Treaty Principles Debate
NZCPR
Much ado about cussing…
Point of Order
Justice in Brazil
No Right Turn
"Seymour is only doing openly what M?ori nationalists and their Pakeha allies have been doing, quietly for the past 50 years."
Not PC
The transgender agenda sunk Kamala
Bob McCoskrie's McBlog
SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT
No Punches Pulled (Bob Jones)
What does “reciprocity” mean in New Zealand laws?
Croaking Cassandra
Media Link: “A View from Afar” on the US elections.
Kiwipolitico
This will not end well
Offsetting Behaviour
Top 14 Predictions for Round 10
Stats Chat
Tory Whanau may have to sell Wellington mayoralty to make ends meet
The Civilian
The Accidental Engagement
Imperator Fish
Legal Beagle: Election '23: The Special Votes
Public Address
Making this movie might have been a mistake
Liam Hehir
Why I am retiring from political blogging
Kiwi FireWalker
Angie Warren-Clark: Meet the Newbies
Dan Moskovitz

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