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November 23, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 23 November 2015

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General Debate

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Andrei

dime, and how many civilians including, the elderly, women and children as collateral damage ? Or don’t they count ?

The USA, along with Canada and Australia have been bombing Syria for more than a year now Stephieboy

Why are you suddenly concerned about civillian casualties?

Where were you when they bombed Libya into anarchy?
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November 23, 2015 12:31pm
AgentBallSack

sam are you saying Shawn hasn’t heard of incognito mode…?
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November 23, 2015 12:36pm
mikenmild

Kimdo
Crazier?
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November 23, 2015 12:37pm
Shawn Herles

“Ever noticed how Witness and Shawn Herles are never in the same room together.?”

Actually we have been on one occasion, because I gave him/her an uptick, and on weekdays I only post during my lunch break.

Silly child. 🙂
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November 23, 2015 12:40pm
Nookin

“…but I look forward to her explanation …”

LOL.

Don’t hold your breath.
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November 23, 2015 12:41pm
FeralScrote

What I have noticed is that Witless tends to scarper when Kimbo shows up : )
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November 23, 2015 12:42pm
Kimbo

@ mikenmild

We reach a rare moment of consensus.

I never thought he was crazy, more obsessive (it takes one to know one!)…but lately we seem to be in a real mystic phase.
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November 23, 2015 12:43pm
stephieboy

Andrei, my impression is that if the Russians are carpet bombing then they certainly have no t regard for civilian casualties unlike the US , Canada etc who were at pains to avoid them with targeted and not carpet bombing !
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November 23, 2015 12:43pm
Shawn Herles

Kimbo, my militancy started before my break, partly due to the murder of Kathryn Steinle, partly due to Obama’s failed policies and destruction of US society, and partly due to reading Odakyu-Sen’s posts on immigration issues.

The greater portion of it however is just the fun in rarking up twits like Stephie and Milkey. 🙂
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November 23, 2015 12:44pm
Kimbo

@ FeralScrote

What I have noticed is that Witless tends to scarper when Kimbo shows up : )

Ah, but might be because my version of Christianity (classical Calvinism) is – to quote Bishop Tamaki – merely intellectual “head knowledge”, and not true “heart knowledge” as practised by the Pentecostals/neo-gnostics.
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November 23, 2015 12:47pm
Shawn Herles

Stephie, at least the Russians are doing something substantial, along with the French. Obama’s weak-ass approach has been a total failure.
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November 23, 2015 12:48pm
mikenmild

Shawn
Perhaps your reaction to Kathryn Steinle’s murder could use some moderation from the reaction of her family:
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/14/politics/donald-trump-kate-steinle-san-francisco/
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November 23, 2015 12:52pm
kowtow

“These fierce, proud warriors NEVER beat their kids.”

Only someone else’s.
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November 23, 2015 12:54pm
Shawn Herles

Or perhaps not milkey. Several families who have had family members murdered by illegal immigrants told their stories at a Trump rally.

Plus, you should know by now that I don’t take advice from you. 🙂
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November 23, 2015 12:55pm
Garbageman

No Stephieboy 12.08 most people don’t care, if civilians are still there then you would have to assume they support isis, otherwise surely they would have followed the rest of the iMigrants and got the hell out of dodge
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November 23, 2015 12:56pm
mikenmild

Well, we could hardly expect you to listen to common sense, Shawn.
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November 23, 2015 12:56pm
stephieboy

Shawn Herles , now a covert Putin fan boy ? Well I never ! Carpet bomb ISIS back to the stone age and never mind the collateral damage of innocent civilians ?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/609177/US-Russia-Putin-BOMBING-TERROR-on-Syria

Fine then !
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November 23, 2015 12:59pm
Shawn Herles

Your version of commonsense milkey is whining if young people at Christian universities are not exposed to drugs and porn.

I don’t consider you to have any sense of any description, just blind devotion to mindless Liberal-Left wank.
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November 23, 2015 1:05pm
Dave Mann

Headline online today from the NZ Herald…. Brussels a ghost town as lockdown continues

In other words, Islam is winning the war… cunts….
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November 23, 2015 1:12pm
mikenmild

It’s not my problem if you think that young Christians are unable to make adult decisions about alcohol, drugs and sex, Shawn.
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November 23, 2015 1:25pm
waikatogirl

Rachael M
warrior or scum jean
***
my earlier reply to manolo’s post (8.09am)
And thick.
So much larger and stronger than a wee 7 year old. What a completely viscious moron.

My real concern is all the apologists who forgive and make excuses for this and other moronic pond scum who can’t comprehend that bashing, stomping, throwing, kicking, scalding a child who weighs a fraction of their weight won’t suffer horrendously or die from their abuse.
How do you prevent abuse and murder of wee children when the abusers are just too thick to understand?
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November 23, 2015 1:30pm
cha

In other words, Islam is winning the war… cunts….

Surrender puss!.

Persian Rose
‏@PersianRose1

Belgian police asked not to share info of anti-terrorism raids so everyone is posting cat pictures #BrusselsLockdown

https://twitter.com/PersianRose1/status/668558725590990848

#BrusselsLockdown (some nsfw puss pictures)
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November 23, 2015 1:44pm
Paulus

Following the Syrian/Assad saga do you really think that Putin cares one sod for Assad.
– he has annexed Latakia on the Syrian Mediterranean border as a new part of Russia and is filling it with troops and aircraft.
Like Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.
You can hear Putin “we have come to help you all to save you from yourselves”.
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November 23, 2015 1:48pm
Manolo

Carpet bomb ISIS back to the stone age and never mind the collateral damage of innocent civilians?

IS must be wiped out, regardless of civilian casualties. War is brutal.
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November 23, 2015 1:52pm
mikenmild

Manolo
Some estimates have as many as 8 million people living in areas controlled by ISIS. What proportion of this total would you consider expendable if war was to be pursued ‘regardless of civilian casualties’?
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November 23, 2015 1:58pm
Manolo

@mikenmild: Yours is a fallacious argument.
If one wants to get rid of a malignant cancer, one undergoes chemotherapy, regardless of its terrible side-effects.
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November 23, 2015 2:05pm
itstricky

Stephieboy, you’ve put your finger on the key point. Christianity has moved on from Medieval times

That would explain why we have Christian commentators here chiming in with “X…is the work of the devil”.

Is the fact that this sort of carry on being exactly what Islam extremists say about The West and Christianity lost on them?
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November 23, 2015 2:08pm
Kimbo

@ Manolo

Carpet bomb ISIS back to the stone age and never mind the collateral damage of innocent civilians?

IS must be wiped out, regardless of civilian casualties. War is brutal.

Until such time as ground troops are sent in to combat ISIL/DAESH, there is little chance of defeating them. As in the Balkans in the 1990s, air strikes alone are not an act or sign of strength. Instead, they tell the enemy that those doing the bombing are half-hearted and are not prepared to pay the same price as them to win. So all they have to do is wait and endure…

War should always be the last resort. But if you do decide to use it, then you wage it with everything at your disposal to achieve a clear objective – in this case destroying ISIL – in order to make the suffering as short as possible. That is the lesson taught by the botched “escalations” in Vietnam
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November 23, 2015 2:11pm
Manolo

@Kimbo: I could not agree more with you. Combat troops are needed to defeat ISIS.
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November 23, 2015 2:14pm
Manolo

The man is incompetent, lines in fantasy land, or something else:
http://news.yahoo.com/obama-us-not-relent-islamic-state-campaign-080929228–politics.html

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (AP) — Trying to reassure a nation on edge, President Barack Obama said Sunday the Islamic State group “cannot strike a mortal blow” against the U.S., and he warned that overreacting to the Paris attacks would play into extremists’ hands. “We will destroy this terrorist organization,” he vowed.
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November 23, 2015 2:18pm
itstricky

Here I was thinking when you became The President, everything was easy because you can just say “nuke ’em” to every issue. Pretty sure we tried that, a couple of times, and it didn’t always work as well as you might expect.
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November 23, 2015 2:27pm
dime

lmao

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11549862

Apparently 8000 losers have signed a petition to boycott zoolander 2 cause they make a few shemale jokes.

8000 people. worldwide. took the time to write their name.

where did dime find this amazing story? front page of the herald.

Just their daily dose of – trannys are normal (cause gays have everything we have to pimp trannys).. excuse the pun there.
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November 23, 2015 2:34pm
DJP6-25

RF 8:26 am. Thanks for another dose of Monday morning schadenfreude.
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November 23, 2015 2:35pm
DJP6-25

Waikatosinger 9:16 am. precisely. The MSM is the broadcast, and print arm of the Democratic party.
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November 23, 2015 2:42pm
Witness

@ SGA

I have never heard of Jack Chick, and I do not consider the Roman church to be Satanic. I do believe it is mistaken about some things, which I assume Kimbo and I would agree about.
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November 23, 2015 3:02pm
Manolo

After decades of left-wing governments and steep decline, Argentina elects a centre-right ticket.
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/22/argentinas-elections-produce-win-for-macri-exit-polls.html
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November 23, 2015 3:06pm
Manolo

What will the Greeks do? Will they ship them to Mamma Merkel’s Germany?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/22/greek-concerns-mount-refugees-balkan-countries-restrict-entry

Concerns are mounting in Greece that the country could have to deal with thousands of trapped migrants and refugees, after border crossings to Balkan nations to the north were abruptly closed.

Macedonia’s decision to prohibit entry to anyone not perceived to be from war-torn countries such as Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq has fuelled fears that the EU’s weakest member may be left picking up the pieces.
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November 23, 2015 3:12pm
Kimbo

@ SGA

@ SGA

I have never heard of Jack Chick, and I do not consider the Roman church to be Satanic. I do believe it is mistaken about some things, which I assume Kimbo and I would agree about.

Hmm.

The Belgic Confession, Article XXIX

“…As for the false Church, she ascribes more power and authority to herself and her ordinances than to the Word of God, and will not submit herself to the yoke of Christ. Neither does she administer the sacraments as appointed by Christ in his Word, but adds to and takes from them, as she thinks proper; she relieth more upon men than upon Christ; and persecutes those, who live holily according to the Word of God, and rebuke her for her errors, covetousness, and idolatry. These two Churches are easily known and distinguished from each other.”

But as that was written in the white heat of the Reformation (1561), it reflects a ‘church militant’ perspective. While the essential Calvinist criticisms of Roman Catholic doctrine remain, nonetheless Rome clearly no longer “persecutes those, who live holily according to the Word of God”, and Vatican II certainly changed the official Catholic attitude towards other Christians, including Protestants. So the the “Whore of Babylon” from the Revelation that the Reformers (rightly, IMHO) applied to Rome in their day…is no longer directly applicable. Not that Jack Chick, who uses the description as his primary understanding of Rome, is a Calvinist. Ironic really – a hardcore Arminian Southern Baptist with an attendant deficient understanding of the corporate and visible nature of the church using classical Calvinist ideas.

Probably “a church with mistaken and false practices” rather than “false” or “satanic” would be a better description of Rome from dynamic modern irenic yet faithful Protestant perspective – IMHO. Although, the baptism of a Roman Catholic is acceptable…whereas a non-trinitarian such as a Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness would need to be baptised again in most Protestant Churches.
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November 23, 2015 3:24pm
sam green

Ever noticed how often Shawn Herles puts a smiley face when saying something cunty 🙂
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November 23, 2015 3:25pm
Kimbo

@ SGA & Witness

Put it this way – I don’t think Roman Catholics are as mistaken as Pentecostals…and that was a classical Calvinist perspective of the forerunners of modern Pentecostals, the 16th Century radical anabaptists.

But then I’ve encountered Protestant ministers and elders, and Calvinists in particular who act like authoritarian Popes beyond correction and accountability, so there comes a point at which you sensibly distinguish between what people profess…and what they actually do
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November 23, 2015 3:30pm
SGA

Class act –
Stuff http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/golf/74310869/lydia-ko-on-the-cusp-of-greatness-as-solyd-gold-lpga-tour-season-applauded

“Ko is still just 18, and she became the fourth player to go from rookie of the year one year to player of the year the next. The others on that list: Nancy Lopez, Beth Daniel and Annika Sorenstam. Greats all, and Ko is well on her way to that same status,” American sports media giant ESPN said.
…
She claimed the season-long points race, the Race to the CME Globe, and a $1.5 million bonus, the tour’s player of the year award and the tour’s money list award – the three major prizes – in a 2015 campaign that also saw he land her first major title.
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November 23, 2015 3:31pm
SGA

@Kimbo
Yeah sure – don’t take me too seriously 🙂 . I get a little twitchy with Pentecostal condemnations of others’ faith in general – I was using the Chick tracts as more of an illustration.
That said – anti-Catholic feeling in the USA, for example, has a long history (e.g., the KKK weren’t fans, from memory), and my sense is that some of that remains in some areas.
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November 23, 2015 3:37pm
Don the Kiwi

Kimbo.
I find it rather fascinating that those who broke away from the True Church around 1500 years after Christianity was established by Jesus, and followed a doctrine started by a man like Luther or Henry VIII or Calvin, consider that the Church founded by Christ – who assured Peter that the “Gates of Hell will not prevail against it”,- consider that that same original Church is false.

I would be interested to hear in what way the Catholic Church fails to teach the True Faith as founded by Jesus, and handed on through the Apostolic Succession.

But maybe this is not the appropriate thread to discuss this – take that as a rhetorical question/statement 🙂
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November 23, 2015 3:41pm
Ryan Sproull

Re: Chick Tracts, here’s the Roman Catholicism one:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp
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November 23, 2015 3:48pm
SGA

@Ryan Sproull
Been there, done that at about 9:30am
It’s not the only one, of course.
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November 23, 2015 3:50pm
Witness

@ Don the Kiwi

I myself merely said I thought it was mistaken about some things. I don’t think it is false. I’m not sure that was directed at me, I just wanted to clarify my own view. 2 years ago I went to a healing workshop led by a group from the US and it had both Catholics and Protestants in attendance, and we worshipped together and got along just fine.
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November 23, 2015 3:54pm
Ryan Sproull

No, true.

This is my favourite one: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP
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November 23, 2015 3:54pm
Harriet

“….President Barack Obama said Sunday the Islamic State group “cannot strike a mortal blow” against the U.S.,…”

Well of course not — to re-phrase a Catholic term — the White Mosque has spoken. 😎
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November 23, 2015 3:55pm
Kimbo

@ SGA

@Kimbo
Yeah sure – don’t take me too seriously 🙂 . I get a little twitchy with pentecostal condemnations of others’ faith in general – I was using the Chick tracts as more of an illustration.
That said – anti-catholic feeling in the USA, for example, has a long history (e.g., the KKK weren’t fans, from memory), and my sense is that some of that remains in some areas.

Joking aside, your point is well made. As I’ve mentioned on a number of occasions, much of the rhetoric directed at Muslim immigrants here on KB is identical to that which Irish Roman Catholics were regarded for nearly all the 19th Century…and as late as the 1960 US Presidential campaign, John F Kennedy’s supposed allegiance to a foreign ruler (the Pope) ahead of the American Constitution was an issue – even though the Protestant bigots didn’t have a problem with Catholics serving and dying for their country in the military, or paying taxes!

I think that Islam is as much a political movement as it is religious, and in its full Koranic form is incompatible with modern non-sectarian western democracy. Nonetheless, plenty of people, including Muslims, are capable of picking and choosing what they follow in their religion and what they discard…and they should be treated on the basis of what they do…not what others say their religious faith means. Our laws don’t judge anyone, Muslims included, on the basis of their religion for good reasons. Once we start doing that, then the freedom of all of us – religious or not – are in real danger.

Plus, in many cases Muslims are good, honest people with very clear ethical principles and an incentive to live by them. Put it this way – I think they are as spiritually deceived as Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses, but it doesn’t mean I wouldn’t want them as a neighbour or a fellow citizen.

Plus I have no idea how a religion gets the different grades of “false”, “wrong”, mistaken” or “satanic”. Which is why I tend to disregard Pentecostals, who think they have a direct telephone line to God giving them continually updating messages. In times past it would was grounds for being committed to a mental institution. Now, it seems, it is the criterion for being made a Destiny Church bishop…
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November 23, 2015 3:57pm
Ryan Sproull

This is my favourite one: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP

“The story starts with some girls playing Dungeons & Dragons.”

“Jack, I’ll stop you right there.”
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November 23, 2015 3:59pm
SGA

Shawn Herles at 1:05 pm

Your version of commonsense milkey is whining if young people at Christian universities are not exposed to drugs and porn.

I’m sure they are, Shawn, I’m sure they are – some probably even have pre-marital sex 🙂
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November 23, 2015 4:00pm
Harriet

“….who act like authoritarian Popes beyond correction and accountability…”

I see the Cathar is out again today — and being all ‘innocent’ about it as usual. 😎
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November 23, 2015 4:02pm
Witness

@ Kimbo

‘Plus I have no idea how a religion gets the different grades of “false”, “wrong”, mistaken” or “satanic”.’

Within Christianity there are degrees. You yourself would disagree with the Catholic positions on grace and works, the issue of Mary and the Saints, and so forth. Outside of Christianity, all other religions are false. Islam is Satanic as it has always been a tool of Satan in persecuting Christians. It is the direct persecution of Christians, such as the mass killings ISIS is carrying out, which makes it Satanic.

‘think they have a direct telephone line to God giving them continually updating messages…’

That would not be an accurate view of what classical Pentecostals believe or practice.
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November 23, 2015 4:04pm
SGA

Kimbo at 3:57 pm

Now, it seems, it is the criterion for being made a Destiny Church bishop…

Perhaps “making oneself a Destiny Church bishop…” would be more accurate.
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November 23, 2015 4:04pm
Witness

@ Kimbo

This is the AoG position with regards to the prophetic ministry.

http://ag.org/top/beliefs/topics/sptlissues_prophets_prophecies.cfm
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November 23, 2015 4:11pm
Kimbo

@ Don the Kiwi

Kimbo.
I find it rather fascinating that those who broke away from the True Church around 1500 years after Christianity was established by Jesus, and followed a doctrine started by a man like Luther or Henry VIII or Calvin, consider that the Church founded by Christ – who assured Peter that the “Gates of Hell will not prevail against it”,- consider that that same original Church is false.

I would be interested to hear in what way the Catholic Church fails to teach the True Faith as founded by Jesus, and handed on through the Apostolic Succession.

But maybe this is not the appropriate thread to discuss this – take that as a rhetorical question/statement 🙂

Why not? It is General Debate. Plus no good Protestant is going to let you get away without a response 😉

The Reformers broke away from a church that was deformed…and refused to be reformed. The identity of the Reformers and the way it was achieved is incidental. I’ll stack ’em up against the Bogia Popes any day!

Classical Protestant objection to Rome centred on three issues (what became known as the “three marks of the true Church”)

1. faithful preaching and teaching of the Word of God
2. faithful administration of the sacraments
3. faithful church discipline

Rome, from a Protestant perspective, was clearly deficient in 1 and 2, and over-reached its power in 3

Plus, having translated the Bible from the original Greek and Hebrew into their own languages (rather than keeping it in Latin as Rome insisted), the Reformers found a number of key doctrines that distinguished them from Rome. Salvation was by

Christ alone (and not through the priesthood or the sacraments of the church)
Grace alone (and not through human acts of piety)
Faith alone (and not through penitence or the purchase of indulgences)
Revealed in the Word of God alone (and not through contradicting Church tradition, or alleged Papal authority)

So for Protestants, the apostolic church was not primarily one claiming its institutions were in continuity with the Apostles some 1500 years before, but rather one that adhered to Apostolic doctrine. From their perspective 16th Century Catholicism was grievously deficient in that respect, and as Rome refused to reform herself in accordance with the Word of God…they had to leave.
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November 23, 2015 4:18pm
Kimbo

@ Witness

@ Kimbo

This is the AoG position with regards to the prophetic ministry.

http://ag.org/top/beliefs/topics/sptlissues_prophets_prophecies.cfm

Meh.

There’s what people say (and there is much in that statement I would disagree with)…

What they mean…

And the “so what?”..

Open the door to any “prophetic” ministry as Pentecostalism defines and practices it…and inevitably the problems occur. Wherever there is doctrinal misunderstanding, there are inevitably pastoral problems…and having observed and cleaned up plenty of ’em from your spiritual neck of the woods, and decided where and how they arise…my phone is off the hook to Pentecostal claims they are anything other than deluded enthusiasts who neglect the weightier matters of Scripture.
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November 23, 2015 4:27pm
Kimbo

@ Witness

‘think they have a direct telephone line to God giving them continually updating messages…’

That would not be an accurate view of what classical Pentecostals believe or practice.

No, we disagree. It is precisely the purpose, belief and practice of classic Pentecostalism – dissembling to the contrary. An overstress on the immanence of God.

It takes those from the outside, especially those who are former practitioners to see and call it what it is.
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November 23, 2015 4:33pm
Witness

@ Kimbo

‘There’s what people say (and there is much in that statement I would disagree with)…

What they mean…’

What they say and what they mean are the same thing. That is why it’s an official position paper.

‘Open the door to any “prophetic” ministry as Pentecostalism defines it…and inevitably the problems occur. ‘

That is exactly the same thing Catholics would say about Scripture Alone.

I don’t think Calvinists have any claim to be concerned with the weightier matters of Scripture. They often seem more concerned with what their Calvinist theology says, regardless of whether or not it is Biblical.

Jesus healed people, cast out demons, and performed miracles, and said His followers would do the same. Calvinists deny that in their practice and in their devotion to cessationism. Thus they contradict Scripture because it does not fit their theological overlay.

Either Calvinists are right and Jesus was wrong, or Jesus was right. I think Jesus was right.
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November 23, 2015 4:36pm
Kimbo

@ Witness

I don;t think Calvinists have any claim to be concerned with the weightier matters of Scripture. They often seem more concerned with what their Calvinist theology says, regardless of whether or not it is Biblical.

Jesus healed people, cast out demons, and performed miracles, and said His followers would do the same. Calvinists deny that in their practice and in their devotion to cessationism. Thus they contradict Scripture because it does not fit their theological overlay.

I’ll indulge you for awhile

1. Where in Scripture, is it taught that supernatural physical healing is one of the “weightier matters”?

2. Where is Scripture is it taught unambiguously that the physical healing ministry would continue for all time throughout the church?

Go to your Nigerian healing crusades. I don’t really care. Waste your time in a silly Pentecostal church where the doctrines of grace and the means to impart it are neglected – the clear, consistent systematic teaching of Scripture instead of a travelling road show of banshees and facile snake-oil merchants and enthusiasts – that is your choice.

But don’t insult my intelligence that the AOG is anything other than a personality-driven legalistic sect.
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November 23, 2015 4:42pm
Witness

I have to pick my wife up from the Dentist. Perhaps we can talk again tomorrow, or tomorrow night depending on work.
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November 23, 2015 4:42pm
Witness

‘1. Where in Scripture, is it taught that supernatural physical healing is one of the “weightier matters”?’

In the Gospels. Jesus spent much of His time healing people.

‘2. Where is Scripture is it taught unambiguously that the physical healing ministry would continue for all time throughout the church?’

Jesus said it would. Mark chapter 16: 14-18. You are contradicting Jesus Himself. Jesus is Lord Kimbo, not Calvin.

“Go to your Nigerian healing crusades. I don’t really care. Waste your time in a silly Pentecostal church where the doctrines of grace and the means to impart it are neglected – the clear, consistent systematic teaching of Scripture instead of a travelling road show of banshees and facile snake-oil merchants and enthusiasts – that is your choice.

But don’t insult my intelligence that the AOG is anything other than a personality-driven legalistic sect.”

You are getting angry and being abusive. That is not Christ like behaviour Kimbo.

Or is talking to a brother in Christ with respect not one of your “weightier” matters?
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November 23, 2015 4:47pm
Kimbo

@ Witness

Jesus said it would. Mark chapter 16: 14-18.

Almost universally acknowledged by all New Testament scholars as not part of the original Gospel. What we now have ends at 16:9. Second year biblical Greek students can pick it in the style of language, irrespective of the content of mark 16:10-20 ).

But then I guess if you are from the AOG you get to ignore stuff like biblical scholarship if it doesn’t fit your theology…because “God told you”.

Got anything else?
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November 23, 2015 4:52pm
Kimbo

@ Witness

You are getting angry and being abusive. That is not Christ like behaviour Kimbo.

Oh, I don’t know. Christ (and Paul, too – check out Galatians) was pretty good at having a go at sanctimonious frauds….especially when they peddled false doctrine.

Or is talking to a brother in Christ with respect not one of your “weightier” matters?

When you arrogantly and flippantly juxtapose Christ with Calvinism…you forfeit that right.
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November 23, 2015 4:54pm
Witness

‘Almost universally acknowledged by all New Testament scholars as not part of the original Gospel.’

So you accept modernist “scholarship” which cuts up the Word of God?

That does not say much for your loyalty to Christ and His Word.

‘Christ (and Paul, too – check out Galatians) was pretty good at having a go at sanctimonious frauds’

You sound pretty sanctimonious right now, and you are peddling false doctrine that contradicts Jesus Himself. Because your “scholars” say so.

Goodbye.
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November 23, 2015 4:58pm
Kimbo

‘1. Where in Scripture, is it taught that supernatural physical healing is one of the “weightier matters”?’

In the Gospels. Jesus spent much of His time healing people

Yep. He also taught in parables. Is that mandatory now, too? Nope, thought not. An occasional practice to confirm the initial presence of the kingdom of God, and establish the church…that is now no longer required as we have the Word of God in its fullness through Christ and the Apostolic Ministry…so it is no longer necessary.
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November 23, 2015 5:00pm
Kimbo

@ Witness

‘Almost universally acknowledged by all New Testament scholars as not part of the original Gospel.’

So you accept modernist “scholarship” which cuts up the Word of God?

Now, let me get this straight – you are talking “modern biblical scholarship” that gives you that Bible you quote from? Sure, OK. Throw your Bible away now. Don’t ever refer to or quote from it again.

It has nothing to do with theological liberalism. There are plenty of conservatives (including Pentecostals!) who will tell you it is highly unlikely Mark 16: 10-20 is part of the original. There are plenty of texts like that. But then the valid discipline of textual criticism that seeks to discover what the Word of God really is just doesn’t really apply “when God tells you”, does it?!

Starting to see why I hold your proud, arrogant, yet ignorant views in contempt?

Byeeee
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November 23, 2015 5:05pm
Reid

WWIII for dummies.

http://tomatobubble.com/id686.html

Sadly, even though it’s only the dummies version, I doubt any of the idiot sheeple will do anything with it except…you guessed it, go:

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
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November 23, 2015 5:09pm
Harriet

“…You are getting angry and being abusive. That is not Christ like behaviour Kimbo….”

But Christ used a whip at one time.

Anyway, does the figurative whipping that you are getting hurt? 😎
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November 23, 2015 5:10pm
Ryan Sproull

That section of Mark 16 also doesn’t appear in the earliest available manuscripts.
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November 23, 2015 5:10pm
Odakyu-sen

Reid @ 5:09

“Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.”

Ow! My eye!

Put that thing away before other people get hurt!
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November 23, 2015 5:17pm
Reid

Boy this’ll start the sheeple bleating and Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaing.

Oskar Lafontaine is a major force in German politics. When he comes out swinging this way, you know something is changing.

He has been an outsized figure in German politics since the mid-70s. He was chairman of the SPD (one of Germany’s two main parties) for four years, the SPD’s candidate for chancellor in 1990, minister of finance for two years, and then chairman of the Left party in the 2000s. He is married to Sarah Wagenknecht, political heavyweight, who is currently co-chairman of Left party.

So it caught people’s attention when he excoriated Ash Carter and Victoria Nuland on his Facebook page yesterday.

Lafontaine’s outburst came a day after his wife, Sarah Wagenknecht, blasted Merkel’s Russia policy in an interview on RT.

Here is the full translation of the post:

“The US ‘Defense’ secretary, i.e., war minister is in Berlin. He called on Europe to counter Russian ‘aggression’. But in fact, it is US aggression which Europeans should be opposing.

“The Grandmaster of US diplomacy, George Kennan described the eastward expansion of NATO as the biggest US foreign policy mistake since WW2, because it will lead to a new cold war.

“The US diplomat Victoria Nuland said we have spent $5 billion to destabilize the Ukraine. They stoke the flames ever higher, and Europe pays for it with lower trade and lost jobs.

“Nuland says ‘F*ck the EU’. We need need an EU foreign policy that stops warmongering US imperialism.

“F*ck US imperialism!”…

How dare he.

The US is the goody!

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
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November 23, 2015 5:31pm
nasska

Okay. A quick Google turns up BAAA = Bachelor of Applied Arts in Animation.

That leaves 38 surplus A’s. 🙂
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November 23, 2015 5:50pm
mikenmild

nasska
At least he appears to have given up on ‘Maaaaaaaaaaaaaa’, which I always took to be some kind of tribute to the recently retired All Black. Funny, because I don’t see Reid as much of a sports fan.
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November 23, 2015 5:53pm
nasska

I checked that one too Mike. Malta Amateur Athletic Assn but again the superfluous A’s.

Malfunctioning keyboard is my best bet…..probably caramel sauce under the A key. 🙂
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November 23, 2015 6:00pm
ex-golfer

Hmmmm, it would seem that The Strandard has died.
Maybe Nashy’s attack has worked?
Either that or the infamous Colonel Viper (Tat Loo) has taken the whole she-bang out with his toy-throwing exercise.
What will the worlds greatest SySop do now?
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November 23, 2015 6:03pm
SGA

nasska at 6:00 pm

Malfunctioning keyboard is my best bet…..probably caramel sauce under the A key. 🙂

Let’s hope that’s all it is.
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November 23, 2015 6:03pm
AgentBallSack

sam green others would disagree but you got an upvote for cunty.
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November 23, 2015 6:06pm
SGA

Ryan Sproull at 5:10 pm

That section of Mark 16 also doesn’t appear in the earliest available manuscripts.

Shame really, the bit about snakes is quite cool.
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November 23, 2015 6:11pm
AgentBallSack

maaaaaaa = Mothers Against Angry Andy Announcing Anything Angrily And Autonomously After Another Apertif At Al’s
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November 23, 2015 6:12pm
Kimbo

@ SGA

Shame really, the bit about snakes is quite cool.

Yep. And of course it should come as no surprise that the snake-handling churches of the USA…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling

…are Full/Four Square Gospel Pentecostals.
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November 23, 2015 6:18pm
SGA

@Kimbo
Yeah, I made the connection 🙂
I assume that the “speaking in tongues” gets some of its support here too.
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November 23, 2015 6:21pm
mikenmild

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Multiple angry anonymous anti-atheists acting as an absolute authority against anyone and anything at all advocating any aspect allied against authoritarian arseholes?
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November 23, 2015 6:28pm
nasska

Rings a bell Mike. 🙂
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November 23, 2015 6:37pm
Witness

@ Kimbo

My wife has had dental surgery and is in a bit of pain so this will be my last post tonight, as I want to tend to her.

Jesus clearly says “Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.” – John 14:11

Jesus performed healings and exorcisms. He taught his followers to do the same. Nowhere does he say it is only for Apostolic times. Nowhere in Scripture does it say so. So cessationism contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture.

Jesus taught his followers to heal the sick. He did not teach them to use parables, so your example does not work. In claiming that what Jesus did then was just for then, you are contradicting Jesus, because He never says any such thing, and neither does Scripture. So cessationism contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture.

Paul in his letters clearly states that the gifts of tongues and prophecy are valid and a part of a Christians life and church life. Nowhere does he say they will stop. Nowhere in Scripture does it say this. So cessationism contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture.

So, you cannot get to your position without contradicting the Word of God incarnate and the Word of God written.

Cessationist Calvinists therefore must perform a bit of theological trickery to hold their position, which they do. But it is not sustainable when one takes the authority and clear teaching of Scripture seriously. Like Catholics, you have made your theology trump Scripture.

And when the theology falls over you use modernist Biblical “scholarship” to trump the authority of Scripture. And while I use modern translations when posting here, I use the KJV and the NKJV for study and devotions. Modern “scholarship” is heavily based on assumptions, assumptions we should question.

And from Jesus to Paul we are taught to engage with each other with love, especially when talking with our brothers and susters in Christ.. Yet you reserve the right to engage with angry and abusive ranting.

I cannot see from your words and your behavior that you care much for the authority of Christ and Scripture at all. Your authorities seem to be your theology alone, modernist assumptions, and your personal feelings.

Goodbye for now.
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November 23, 2015 6:38pm
sam green

Cheers ABS 🙂
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November 23, 2015 6:39pm
Kimbo

@ SGA

I assume that the “speaking in tongues” gets some of its support here too.

Yes.

While the practice is attested in other parts of the New Testament – particularly Acts 2 (day of Pentecost) and the Samaritan (Acts 8: 14-17) Gentile Pentecost at the conversion of the Household of Cornelius (Acts 10: 44-46), and also in the church in Corinth (I Corinthians chapter 12-14), the passage Witness is trying to insist is part of the original text is allegedly the Markan account of the Great Commission, i.e., Jesus command to the church until his return.

Yet Church history attests, other than a few enthusiasts over the course of Two Millennia, the practice died out by the time the Apostolic Age finished in approximately 100A.D.

Which actually fits the pattern of miracles elsewhere in Scripture: In the Old Testament Moses and Joshua do great miracles in the Exodus/Conquest to establish Israel as a nation, then they cease…until the brief Prophetic ministries of Elijah and Elisha in response and as a counter-balance/for to the relatively new institution of kingship being abused…and then it ceases again.

Pentecostalism has this crazy idea that if there are lots of miracles, non-believers will be converted. Biblically that is complete crap. All of the generation who saw Moses’ miracles in the Exodus perished due to a lack of true faith (see Psalm 95), and similar things are recorded in the New Testament:

John 2: 23-25

23 Now while he (Jesus) was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

Yet Witness wants to insist miracles, including healings are a substantial matter with which the church should be concerning itself. And you can guarantee they always end up following the next snake-oil merchant who has to continually amp up the volume and intensity to cover the lack of substance. I don’t know if you have ever been to a Pentecostal Church, SGA, but take my word for it – the most mind-numbing tedious boring load of prattle you have ever encountered. Psychic cold-reading and Pavlovian conditioning dressed up as spirituality.

Witness’ pious grizzling “You are getting angry and being abusive. That is not Christ like behaviour Kimbo.” is just the tip of the iceberg when you start calling them out over the lack of substance. Brian Tamaki’s spiritual blackmail is a classic – “touch not the Lord’s anointed” Yeah right! The Protestant Reformers knew what do to when they encountered that crap from the Papacy back in the 16th century! And it ain’t just Tamaki. Go to your standard Pentecostal Church – including the AOG – and the man with the “gift of the Spirit” is effectively untouchable.
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November 23, 2015 6:45pm
Kimbo

@ Witness

@ Kimbo

My wife has had dental surgery and is in a bit of pain so this will be my last post tonight, as I want to tend to her.

Jesus clearly says…

No, no, Witness. As you reject the fruits of the consensus of biblical textual scholarship (to quote you: “modernist “scholarship”)…you forfeit the right to quote from the Bible that they make available.
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November 23, 2015 6:48pm
mikenmild

Although exact records are difficult to substantiate, at least 71 people have been killed by venomous snakebites during religious services in the United States
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November 23, 2015 6:50pm
nasska

I knew a bloke once who got bitten by a snake, then he fell to the floor & started writhing around.

It’s amazing how fast the super powers kick in.
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November 23, 2015 6:51pm
Manolo

The MSM is trying to get Trump at any cost:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/23/donald-trump-accused-of-hate-campaign-after-claiming-thousands-cheered-on-911

Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump has been accused of running a hate campaign after he claimed to have seen “thousands” of people cheering the 9/11 attacks from New Jersey.

Trump first told the story on Saturday at a rally in Alabama, as he stressed the need for greater surveillance, including monitoring certain mosques, in the wake of the Paris attacks.
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November 23, 2015 6:54pm
Manolo

Well said! 😀
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3329948/Senator-David-Leyonhjelm-s-bizarre-rant-against-parents-bundles-dribble-sputum.html

A Libertarian senator thanked the ‘childless’ population of Australia for working harder and paying ‘thousands and thousands’ more in taxes compared to those who decided to have children, as he argued most welfare payments for parents should be abolished.

Liberal Democrats Senator David Leyonhjelm believes it’s unfair for childless Australians – who he said are ‘ignored, pitied, considered strange, or even thought of as irresponsible’ – to be subsidising the lifestyles of those who bring ‘wave upon wave of these little blighters into the world’.

Mr Leyonhjelm made the controversial statements as he threw his support behind legislation to withhold family payments and childcare subsidies from parents who refuse to immunise their children.
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November 23, 2015 6:57pm
Dave_1924

We need a daily religions thread……….. just saying
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November 23, 2015 7:00pm
Dave_1924

And where is Griff? I hope he is not unwell….
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November 23, 2015 7:00pm
Viking2

SBS Bank’s boss says a rock bottom 3.99 per cent mortgage rate will be profitable and is not just a marketing stunt.

The minnow lender launched the special one year fixed rate on Monday, which it said would run for a limited time.

The sub-4 per cent home loan rate is the lowest New Zealand has seen in several decades and could stir larger rivals into cutting their own prices.

The Southland-based SBS timed the promotion to coincide with a “refresh” of its branding and services, as it aims to strengthen its presence in Auckland and nationwide.

Chief executive Wayne Evans said it would make money on the deal, but its ownership structure meant short-term profitability was not as pressing.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/74297535/sbs-bank-boss-says-399-per-cent-home-loan-rate-will-be-profitable

================================
Wasn’t expecting to see these rates till after Xmas. More to come I’d reckon.
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November 23, 2015 7:01pm
Kimbo

@ Witness

Jesus clearly says “Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.” – John 14:11

Jesus performed healings and exorcisms. He taught his followers to do the same.

OK, so you’ve dropped the Mark 16 text – with no acknowledgement of the sheer stupidity of appealing to Mark 16: 14-16 as a source. But now your problem in quoting that text from John 14 (and basing the rest of your subsequent argument on it) is that if Jesus meant miracles (including healings), he would have used the word sign as the rest of John’s Gospel does. But instead, he uses the word works…which elsewhere the same Gospel tells us is “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (John 6: 29).

No, I can’t prove from the Scriptures that miracles have ceased. But I can clearly show that they are a relatively minor and dispensable matter in the overall scheme of God’s ultimate concerns – that we exercise faith in Jesus Christ.

You minor on majors and insist they are mandatory if you want. I’ve got more important things to do…like put believe in Christ irrespective of physical circumstances. Which, I believe, is the heart of biblical faith.
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November 23, 2015 7:04pm
Rachael Membery

waikatogirl (2,679 comments) says:

November 23rd, 2015 at 1:30 pm

He understood perfectly, otherwise he would not have threatened his wife. I do not even accept the cultural argument. Male Lions often kill their beaten rivals cubs when they take over the Pride, perhaps it is an animal instinct. Perhaps that is all he is.

I am currently doing a paper which includes Cultural Relativism, is there a culture where such behaviour is accepted?
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November 23, 2015 7:05pm
Lucia Maria

Manolo,

He sounds more like a people hating Green of the type that think that the world would be better off if the population was decreased to 10% of what we have now. But then I suppose there is quite a lot of cross over between the libertarians and the Greens in their anti-life points of view. It’s just that the Greens hide it better.
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November 23, 2015 7:07pm
mikenmild

Lucia
Where did you get the idea that libertarians are ‘anti-life’, whatever that means?
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November 23, 2015 7:11pm
Lucia Maria

Mike,

By talking to them and reading their writings. It was a few years ago, I leave them mostly alone now. Manolo’s comment has reminded me why I do.
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November 23, 2015 7:13pm

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