General Debate 1 November 2015

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tom hunter

Of course if the real goal is continual mayhem and misery for the people of these lands well it is as they say “Mission Accomplished”.

I’m just amused Andrei, at how you’ve been converted from a full-blown supporter of GW and the US in their attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq, to being a full-blown supporter of Putin supporting Assad – and one who is now snarking with exactly the sort of nuttiness as the people who were attacking you eight years ago – “neocons”, “Mission Accomplished”.

Is it something about strong Christian leaders – and that assumes that a former KGB officer who undoubtedly persecuted Eastern Orthodox members like you, has also now seen the light?

Anyhow, with regards to Syria, much as I agree with Putin bombing the shit out of Jihadists – and he really has left Daesh largely alone by bombing in the Eastern part of Syria – unlike you I’m under no illusions as to what he’s trying to achieve, which is the preservation of a warm-water port for the Russian navy. He could not give a toss about Assad. It also won’t worry Putin if Syria remains fractured – the more uncertainty in the ME the more likely oil supplies are de-stablised and the price to rise, all grist to Russia’s budget mill. He’ll contribute enough force to keep things “stable” – if on edge – but he won’t be stupid enough to dump more military resources into the fight against the FSA and Daesh.

And speaking of “doing the same thing over and over”, I assume this means you now reject the following argument that you once accepted:

Sixty years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe — because in the long run, stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty. As long as the Middle East remains a place where freedom does not flourish, it will remain a place of stagnation, resentment, and violence ready for export. And with the spread of weapons that can bring catastrophic harm to our country and to our friends, it would be reckless to accept the status quo.

Therefore, the United States has adopted a new policy, a forward strategy of freedom in the Middle East. This strategy requires the same persistence and energy and idealism we have shown before. And it will yield the same results. As in Europe, as in Asia, as in every region of the world, the advance of freedom leads to peace.

I have to admit that I always had doubts about the latter policy, but Bush was right on the money when he said that continuing to support dictators in the ME for the sake of “stability” had merely produced very unstable situations – funnily enough the very criticism that had been hurled at the USA for years by left-wingers. He may as well have been talking about Assad.
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November 1, 2015 5:46pm
Viking2

Did the New Zealand film industry just eat our lunch? By Jason Potts

James Cameron is going to film the next three instalments of the Avatar franchise in New Zealand. He promises to spend at least NZ$500 million, employ thousands of Kiwis, host at least one red-carpet event, include a NZ promotional featurette in the Avatar DVDs, and will personally serve on a bunch of Film NZ committees, and probably even bring scones, all in return for a 25% rebate on any spending he and his team do in the country (up from a 20% baseline to international film-makers) that is being offered by the New Zealand Government.

The implication that many media reports are running with is that this is a loss to the Australian film industry, that we should be fighting angry, and that we should hit back at this brilliantly cunning move by the Kiwi’s by increasing our film industry rebates, which currently are about 16.5% (these include the producer and location offsets, and the post, digital and visual effects offset) to at very least 30%. These rebates cost tax-payers A$204 million in 2012, which hardly even buys you a car industry these days.

http://utopiayouarestandinginit.com/2015/11/01/did-the-new-zealand-film-industry-just-eat-our-lunch-by-jason-potts/

Hmm. More taxpayer subsidies coming then?
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November 1, 2015 5:47pm
Reid

Tom, read these if you want to know why the US is doing what it’s been doing.

https://medium.com/dan-sanchez/seize-the-chaos-d065f507f0cc#.aexrtx843

https://medium.com/dan-sanchez/clean-break-to-dirty-wars-d5ebc5fda9f9#.18bt9r8ts

If you don’t want to know, then join the ranks of the rest of the sheeple.

Bush was right on the money when he said that continuing to support dictators in the ME for the sake of “stability” had merely produced very unstable situations…

Whereas the UKUSI interventions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria have produced incredible stability, haven’t they. There’s a reason they haven’t, it’s all explained in those links.
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November 1, 2015 5:51pm
Kriss X

July 27th, 2015 at 1:26 pm

A new low is reached. Lying about what people have said, while denying the right of reply. The cesspool of Whaleoil got a free trip to Israel, what did you get Farrar, aside from pleasing Key ?

[DPF: That’s Strike 1. Good way to get banned is to eep this up]
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November 1, 2015 5:57pm
stigie

Ever been over for a visit at the Stranded Kriss X, they may welcome you?

BTW, never get tired of watching H/Ls of the RWC final. Just superb !~
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November 1, 2015 6:08pm
Viking2

Forget Bitcoin — What Is the Blockchain and Why Should You Care?

A blockchain is essentially just a record, or ledger, of digital events — one that’s “distributed,” or shared between many different parties. It can only be updated by consensus of a majority of the participants in the system. And, once entered, information can never be erased. The bitcoin blockchain contains a certain and verifiable record of every single bitcoin transaction ever made.

http://recode.net/2015/07/05/forget-bitcoin-what-is-the-blockchain-and-why-should-you-care/
===============================
Never heard of this till yesterday.
Interesting read.
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November 1, 2015 6:13pm
stephieboy

Reid, am trying to dig deeper into one of Dan Sanchez’s more outrageous claims that Israel is in cahoots with Al Qeada and al Nursa in Syria and ISIS too. The claim appears to in part originate with a comminque from the Syrian Ambassador to the UN from the anti jewish rag linked below ,

“The Syrian ambassador to the United Nations, Bashar Ja’afari, has long complained of a conspiracy of Zionists and Syrian rebels to overthrow the country’s President Bashar Assad. Mr. Ja’afari has declared that the extremists have an “undeclared alliance with Israel and are engaged in a secret agreement” with its regime… “

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2015/02/un-reveals-israels-support-for-isis/

Hardly an objective source for such a claim . Also we need to have an opportunity to see the UN Documents that make also the claim .Thus far not forthcoming. Can you help ?

Just because Israeli soldiers might give medical aid to Syrian Rebels does not mean they are either ISIS or al Nursa More documentation and evidence from Sanchez needs to be forthcoming and not from official Syrian sources .
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November 1, 2015 6:22pm
nasska

A 95 year old man who called a radio station talk-back to say how lonely he is, has been offered a private performance by a Kapa haka group.

Police negotiators are trying to talk him down from the roof!
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November 1, 2015 6:46pm
cha

There’s a reason they haven’t, it’s all explained in those links.

You could go straight to the Parade of Horribles…(pdf)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89429658
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November 1, 2015 6:48pm
stephieboy

cha, I like these comments about Iraq war architect Douglas Feith in a review of his book ,”War and Decision: Inside the Pentagon a…’

“I love how 60 minutes ripped this man apart on national television. He was a completely incompotent decision-maker of an invasion that has not only destroyed America’s international credibility, but has destroyed the Iraqi people. The fact that this man agreed to disbanding the Iraqi army, effectively creating 400 thousand unemployed and armed civilians in an unstable, leaderless, and poverty-stricken nation proves that this man and the Bush administration never had Iraqi peace on the agenda. They have been doing nothing but feed the fire of ethnic hatred. This book is filled with indoctrinating propaganda. They went to war under the flag of pre-emptive self-defence, a concept that Hitler used to justify the invasion of Poland back at the start of WWII. It is becoming painfully obvious now that the collateral damage this idiodic war has caused will only augment America’s national “defence” budget, further damaging its already exhausted economy and monstrous national debt.”

This is also interesting from another Reviewer ,

“Although Doug Feith and John Bolton and George Bush and Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz and the many others who took this country to war have never had any desire to fight for their country when they had the opportunity, nobody can deny the patriotism and courage that these brave men have demonstrated in taking this great nation to war for no good reason against a country with a weak military but lots and lots of those Arab looking people who hate our freedoms….”

http://www.amazon.com/War-Decision-Inside-Pentagon-Terrorism/dp/0061373664/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1446357698&sr=1-1&keywords=Douglas+Feith

And the likes of tom hunter and other Republican fellow travellers have the nerve to criticise Obama for his dithering and weakness in the ME ,
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November 1, 2015 7:16pm
Griff

Ya gotta feel sorry for the rabid Republicans Stephie.
Its not their fault they support a political party whose best candidates at present are Trump and Carson.
ROFL.
Most of the dumb nobs dont get…. just because I think their party is insane doesn’t mean I support the alternative .
I also think the entire USA political system is broken.
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November 1, 2015 7:27pm
Fletch

stephieboy, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Almost everyone in the world saw Iraq and Saddam Hussein as a threat, including the French, Chinese, Israeli and Russian intelligence agencies, and at home the Democrats. Bill & Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Al Gore, John Kerry and Ted Kennedy all made statements to the effect that something had to be done. We definitely know Saddam used chemical weapons on his own people, and against the Kurds in 1988 (orchestrated by one of his lieutenants, “Chemical Ali”). He expelled weapons inspectors in 1998 and again in 2001 and would not let them back in.

Of course, when it is convenient to do so, people flip sides and make out that they never supported it.

As I said, hindsight is 20/20.
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November 1, 2015 7:31pm
Fletch

Its not their fault they support a political party whose best candidates at present are Trump and Carson.

As opposed to Hillary and Col. Sanders?!!!
Wow… I’d take Trump or Carson over those two any day. At least then America would stand a fighting chance.
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November 1, 2015 7:33pm
mikenmild

Fletch
1. You seem to forget that in 1988 the US was supporting Iraq in its war with Iran.
2. Lots of well-informed people pointed out that Iraq posed no great threat to its neighbours in 2003.
3. You enthusiasm for Trump and Carson probably relieves anyone of the responsibility for taking you seriously.
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November 1, 2015 7:38pm
cha

hindsight is a wonderful thing.

FFS Fletch, what fucking hindsight – the memo I linked to above outlining the potential for catastrophe is dated October 15, 2002, six months prior to the Iraq invasion.
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November 1, 2015 7:40pm
Griff

Whatever fletch .
I would like trump or Carson to win.
It will be as funny as hell to watch the mayhem that would result.
But the mere fact that they are so different but both insane should tell you something about the issue within the republican movement at present.

a fighting chance

If you mean waste another couple of trillion on unwinnable conflicts that result in more potential threats not less you have probably used the correct words.
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November 1, 2015 7:43pm
nasska

The only thing that causes me more concern than the likelihood of Clinton being the next president of the US is the alternative.
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November 1, 2015 7:50pm
tom hunter

what fucking hindsight
…
Lots of well-informed people pointed out that Iraq posed no great threat to its neighbours in 2003.

The following is always worth a chuckle when this stuff starts getting thrown around.
Democrats before Iraq War started….
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November 1, 2015 7:58pm
stephieboy

Fletch . i dont know about Trump but are you serious about Carson ?

http://www.inquisitr.com/2072779/ben-carson-politically-incorrect-or-raving-lunatic-six-quotes-proving-dr-carson-is-a-crazy-person/
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November 1, 2015 7:59pm
mikenmild

So some Democrats wanted to invade Iraq? Not news, I’m afraid.
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November 1, 2015 8:01pm
Captain Mainwaring

“A Russian airliner carrying 224 passengers crashed into a mountainous area of Egypt’s Sinai peninsula on Saturday shortly after losing radar contact near cruising altitude, killing all aboard.”
Thanks for that Stephieboy, but all the TV news shots show the terrain to be far from mountainous, in fact it looks as flat as a billiard table.
If this is an indication of where the truth lies, I suspect we are a week or two away from finding it out.
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November 1, 2015 8:01pm
cha

A selection of Rumsfeld’s predictions contained in the October 2002 memo.

6. The Arab street could erupt, particularly if the war is long, destabilizing friendly countries neighboring Iraq – Jordan, Saudi Arabia, GCC states, Pakistan, etc.

7. While the US is engaged in Iraq , another rogue state could take advantage of US preoccupation-North Korea, Iran, PRC in the Taiwan Straits, other?

18. US could fail to manage post-Saddam Hussein Iraq successfully, with the result that it could fracture into two or three pieces, to the detriment of the Middle East and the benefit of Iran.

19. Rather than having the post-Saddam effort require 2 to 4 years, it could take 8 to 10 years, thereby absorbing US leadership, military and financial resources.

20. US alienation from countries in the EU and the UN could grow to levels sufficient to make our historic post World War II relationships irretrievable,with the charge of US unilateralism becoming so embedded in the world’s mind that it leads to a diminution of U.S. influence in the World.

24. Recruiting and financing for terrorist networks could take a dramatic upward tum from successful information operations by our enemies, positioning the US as anti-Muslim.
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November 1, 2015 8:02pm
Nostradamus

Kriss X (earlier on this thread) said something bad happened at 1.26 pm on 27 July 2015:

July 27th, 2015 at 1:26 pm

A new low is reached. Lying about what people have said, while denying the right of reply. The cesspool of Whaleoil got a free trip to Israel, what did you get Farrar, aside from pleasing Key ?

So what happened at 1:26 pm on 27 July 2015?

Kea was banned:

David Farrar (1,574 comments) says:
July 27th, 2015 at 1:26 pm

Criticism of Israel is legitimate debate. Saying the Jews are pedophiles and control the media in the US is just anti-Semitism and an 8th strike for Kea for numerous comments above.

Somehow I don’t think DPF issues strikes in order to “please” John Key.
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November 1, 2015 8:03pm
stephieboy

tom hunter and Feith’s, Cheney’s ,GWB, Wolfowitz’s etc enviable military and war service record ?
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November 1, 2015 8:04pm
tom hunter

So some Democrats wanted to invade Iraq?

The former Democrat President of the USA (1993-2001)
The current Vice-President
The current Secretary of State and former Democrat nominee for President in 2004
The current minority leader of the Senate Democrats and former Senate Leader, 2007-2014
The current minority leader of the House Democrats (since 2003) and former House Speaker, 2007-2011

And the crown jewel: the former Secretary of State and current Democrat nominee (99% certain) for President in 2016.

Yeah…. just “some” Democrats.
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November 1, 2015 8:12pm
tom hunter

Gee Cha, I thought you’d go with Cheney’s reasons for not taking out Saddam in 1991. After all they match that Rumsfeld document – and the arguments of the anti-war crowd in 2003.

Of course in 1991 those reasons that had seen the Marsh Arabs and the Kurds abandoned to Saddam’s tender mercies, not to mention the rest of the Iraqi people, were condemned as cold-blooded realpolitik – because Republican (and Cheney)

Whereas in 2003 they represented compassionate concern for the people of Iraq – because left-wing anti-war protestors.
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November 1, 2015 8:19pm
Griff

Strange the only one who would bother trolling that up is the parrot himself.

Tom you bored or something ?
Normally you swear of the pointless mind numbing low information chatter on GD
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November 1, 2015 8:19pm
tom hunter

Got tired of seeing this repetitive partisan bullshit go unanswered – and since it’s all been hashed over for years it’s pretty much cut and paste of what I’ve said before.
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November 1, 2015 8:22pm
mikenmild

tom can’t resist pushing the Republicans=Good, Democrats=Bad theme, Griff.
Next thing, he will be finding all the Democrats are hypocrites on global warming, and reporting that as news…
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November 1, 2015 8:24pm
Nostradamus

Griff:

Tom Hunter once asked me this question:

When you were gaining your degree Nostradamus, you made money during the New Zealand summers by clubbing baby Harp Seals in the Arctic, no?

Tom adds value to Kiwiblog – a worthwhile mix of information and entertainment – so I’m more than happy for him to club some baby Harp Seals in the Arctic when he feels like it 🙂
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November 1, 2015 8:24pm
stephieboy

tom hunter , before you get too carried away a memory jolt – Republican perfidy and Saddam Hussein

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

and yes certain Democrats did support the iraq invasion 2003 which I beleive they now might deeply regret !

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/159589
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November 1, 2015 8:29pm
Awww C-mon

Advice needed from you again gentlemen…

Stretch for the V8 commodore ute or be sensible and find a tidy Sv6 ? looking at the 2012-2013 models
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November 1, 2015 8:31pm
tom hunter

@mm
Sure, I’m just such a huge fan of the GOP…..

@Nostradamus
Why thank you. I’d forgotten that comment – and also that you confessed to shredding chicken feet instead. And now that I check on that link I see some long-lost hilarity, courtesy of the long lost Tom Jackson, although the following quote of his was from an even earlier thread:

If she hadn’t married Bill Clinton, she would have had an even more stellar career. She gave up a lot of her own ambitions for love.

I still think that’s one of the greatest comments on KB ever.
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November 1, 2015 8:33pm
Griff

Hey dont look at me
I find tom one of the most engaging commenters on kb
I dont agree with him but do appreciate he has intelligence and knowledge far in excess of most of the Republican supporters on here.
And he is fun to troll on occasion .
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November 1, 2015 8:35pm
Griff

Awww C-mon
Buy a toyota.
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November 1, 2015 8:36pm
Awww C-mon

Surprised you didnt go further and say Prius Griff 😉
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November 1, 2015 8:37pm
mikenmild

Perhaps you could go without a car at all…
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November 1, 2015 8:40pm
Awww C-mon

dont be silly MM, I need to get the boat to the ramp!
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November 1, 2015 8:41pm
Griff

No a toyota ute
they dont make a Prius ute.
I guessed you need the versatility of a ute for work or recreation.
Though I find a van or SUV works better for trade because of security or the access issues with a canopy fitted.
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November 1, 2015 8:42pm
nasska

This when the decision to invade Iraq was made. Whatever the politcal spin, the motive was pure revenge by the Bush dynasty.

….”April 13, 1993: Fourteen men believed to be working for Saddam Hussein smuggled bombs into Kuwait to assassinate former President Bush by a car bomb during his visit to Kuwait University three months after he had left office.”….

….”The Iraqi Intelligence Service, particularly Directorate 14, was proved to be behind the plot.”…..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_assassination_attempts_and_plots#George_H._W._Bush
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November 1, 2015 8:45pm
Nostradamus

Awww C-mon:

I need to get the boat to the ramp!

Let me guess: you have a yacht at Westhaven?

If so, then according to Splooge, you need an Audi.
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November 1, 2015 8:46pm
Shawn Herles

“tom can’t resist pushing the Republicans=Good, Democrats=Bad theme”

Because it’s true. The last Dem Presidents who were worth a damn were Truman and Kennedy, but from LBJ to Obama it’s been one weak-ass delusional liberal moron after another, and Obama is the Dem’s real low point.
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November 1, 2015 8:47pm
stephieboy

Remembering Ronald Reagan,

http://crooksandliars.com/files/imagecache/node_primary/primary_image/15/09/remembering_reagan.png

and this is true now isn’t it , Shawn Herles ?,

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/159589

and,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3287982/I-m-sorry-Blair-takes-blame-Iraq-War-admits-conflict-caused-rise-ISIS-astonishing-apology-TV-show.html
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November 1, 2015 8:47pm
Shawn Herles

Hey stephie, do ya think the over one thousand young women and children who were raped and beaten and trafficked around Britain by Pakistani Muslims enjoyed your “diversity dividend”?
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November 1, 2015 8:54pm
Shawn Herles

The BBC and Islam: Let the children be raped

“Between the liberal-Left BBC and the hopeless British police who have internalised far-Left neo-fascist political correctness, little children are being raped and then blamed for being raped because the rapists are Muslim”

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5597/the_bbc_and_islam_let_the_children_be_raped
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November 1, 2015 8:55pm
cha

Saddam’s tender mercies

Yeah, better to demolish Iraq, lose any remaining credibility and hand the region to Iran and the wahabbists. Fucking brilliant.
/
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November 1, 2015 8:58pm
cha

in fact it looks as flat as a billiard table.

The Flight 9268 crash site – 30.1506°N 34.178°E doesn’t look too flat.
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November 1, 2015 9:00pm
stephieboy

Shawn Herles, you begiining to sound more and more like kea with you own infantile and hysterical personal holy crusade against the world’s 1.6 billion Muslims !

Kindly next time address the issues raised in my links if you don’t mind !
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November 1, 2015 9:02pm
starboard

Stick with ya peddle car AC..
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November 1, 2015 9:35pm
Manolo

Lovely newcomers:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/01/world/europe/german-village-of-102-braces-for-750-asylum-seekers.html

In early October, the district government informed Sumte’s mayor, Christian Fabel, by email that his village of 102 people just over the border in what was once Communist East Germany would take in 1,000 asylum seekers.
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November 1, 2015 9:59pm
Odakyu-sen

Manolo,

I wonder what contingency plans the German government has.

What could happen?
1. Things go well.
2. Things go very differently to the way anyone expected.
3. Things go bad quickly.
4. Things go bad slowly.
5. Things go bad slowly, but over the next two generations.
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November 1, 2015 10:16pm
Jack5

Stephie the Bot pots to Shawn Herles at 9.02:

Kindly next time address the issues raised in my links if you don’t mind !

Retired school teacher, are you Stephie?
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November 1, 2015 10:18pm
tom hunter

Yeah, better to demolish Iraq …

So,
Holding Hands with Saddam, 1983 = Republicans bad.
Not getting rid of Saddam, 1991 = Republicans bad.
Getting rid of Saddam, 2003 = Republicans bad

Got it.

As opposed to this fabulous little dinner party between John Kerry and the guy that’s now the baddie – but whose country was then seen as “an essential player in bringing peace and stability to the region”, led by a “different leader”

And still

tom can’t resist pushing the Republicans=Good, Democrats=Bad theme, Griff.
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November 1, 2015 10:19pm
stephieboy

Jack 5, you a retired sewer cart operator ?

tom hunter, I understand the 1991 operation Desert Storm was sanctioned by the UN with a coalition of allied forces as a joint operation led by the US.

The 2003 invasion received no such support or sanction .

Big difference !

1983 was shall we say ,rather charitably ,open to misunderstandings rather like the Iran Contra a affair ?
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November 1, 2015 10:38pm
Manolo

KB’s multiculturalist is delighted:
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/10/caught-on-video-german-muslim-islam-is-coming-and-your-daughters-will-wear-the-hijab/

“Islam is coming to take over Germany whether you want it or not…not through war but by the fact that Germans don’t reproduce and Muslims have 7-8 children each…but not only that, your daughters will marry bearded Muslims and wear the hijab, their sons will wear a beard!”
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November 2, 2015 7:13am

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