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October 22, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 22 October 2015

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Reid

Reid
Was it just last night that you said you didn’t think EAD was obsessed with the Jews…

As a demonstration of your slime mm, pray tell us what precise proportion of mm’s 2,984 comments have been about that?

Go on.

We’re waiting.

Or don’t you know? But you’re happy to throw that particularly poisonous innuendo around, anyway?

What’s the answer?

One of them, that’s for sure.
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October 22, 2015 7:53pm
nasska

I doubt that life in Tokyo would be for everyone Odakyu-Sen…..including me. 🙂

But let’s imagine the stalwart officers of the Immigration Bureau are having a really bad day & we were able to slip our aforementioned pack of bludgers past their eagle eyes.

Would they survive? Over here we would immediately shower them with more money & cuddles while apologising for their post colonial shock. Are they totally helpless because of this or despite this?

Paint me a picture of what would happen.
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October 22, 2015 7:55pm
mikenmild

Reid

Oh, lots. But who would wade through that much crazy to count?
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October 22, 2015 7:57pm
Reid

Oh, lots. But who would wade through that much crazy to count?

Your attitude therefore is precisely the same as those who allege Maori murdered the Moriori mm.

Just in one case you’re prepared to use precisely the same logic and in another, you’re not.

Aren’t you.
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October 22, 2015 8:00pm
mikenmild

But Maori did murder the Moriori, Reid. So what’s your point?
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October 22, 2015 8:02pm
EAD

Kimbo,

Have you ever looked around and noticed this blog is full of Christian baiters and Islam baiters?

MM,

What portion or Naska and Manolo comments are related to Christians and Muslims? Are they “obsessed”?

All I’m interested in is the truth. Nothing more, nothing less
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October 22, 2015 8:03pm
MetaPol

No Pagan baiters?
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October 22, 2015 8:05pm
mikenmild

That’s nice, EAD. We can all have our little obsessions. You can have your Jew-hatred, Holocaust denial and economic collapse scaremongering. Manolo can have his xenophobia. nasska can lampoon Godnutters. It’s a free world for all kinds of expression.
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October 22, 2015 8:07pm
nasska

….”Have you ever looked around and noticed this blog is full of”…..atheists who want to live our lives free from the guidance & meddling of imaginary Sky pixies & their deluded followers?

FIFY
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October 22, 2015 8:08pm
Reid

But Maori did murder the Moriori, Reid. So what’s your point?

But mm, you said @ 6.23 that:

There is no evidence that Moriori were a separate people who arrived in New Zealand before the Maori.

So can someone “murder” someone else who didn’t even exist?

Perhaps you should initiate a govt enquiry, that we pay for, to establish “the facts.” (As pre-determined and explained by you to the person you appoint.)

(I understand this is how “inconvenient truths” get resolved, in govt.)
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October 22, 2015 8:08pm
Scott Hamilton

Don wrote:

‘I said Morirori were MAORI. They were the FIRST maori to come here, about 300 years before the Te Arawa, Takatimu etc arrived. I said Kupe ( not mythical, Mm, but the original navigator) left maori here to explore and populate the land, and they were peaceful.Nothing I said contradicts science or modern anthropological findings’

I think pretty much all of that contradicts the knowledge that scholarship has given us, Don.

I don’t know of any scholar who would consider Kupe or any Maori culture hero a real historical figure whose movements could be plotted, and it is decades since David Simmons’ book The Great New Zealand Myth showed how a plethora of often contradictory stories about waka journeys were tidied up into an untenable narrative by Elsdon Best and Percy Smith, the same folks responsible for the Moriori myth. Les Groube has plausibly suggested that the waka legends reflect journeys around early Aotearoa, after the first journey or journeys from tropical Polynesia had been completed. You’re certainly mistaken if you think anyone tries nowadays to ascribe a date to the arrival of an Arawa or Takitimu waka from Hawai’iki.

There have been many archaeological excavations done in the north, and they haven’t, so far as I’m aware, uncovered evidence of a peaceful and egalitarian ancient society. On the contrary, old burial sites in the north, as in the rest of New Zealand, suggest that the first settlers of these islanders had a relatively hierarchical and martial culture. We know that almost all the cultures of tropical Polynesia, the area that was the jumping off point for the colonisation of Aotearoa, were, to a greater or lesser extent, martial and hierarchical (a couple of minor exceptions would be Pukapuka and Takuu).

On the Chatham Islands, where the real Moriori people developed their culture, we see evidence of a decline in hierarchy and a disappearance of martial culture in burial sites. Graves get simpler and simpler, and chiefs are buried with fewer and fewer goods. Weapons disappear from the archaeological record. But this change occurs after a century or so of occupation of the Chathams – as someone noted above, it is related to the way the Polynesians settlers of the islands adapted to their environment. Moriori culture didn’t come from anywhere else, and developed only on the Chathams.

There were a small number of Moriori in northland from about the middle of the nineteenth century, but they arrived in the region after being taken as slaves by a couple of Taranaki iwi, who invaded the Cahthams in 1835: http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2009/03/peter-buck-holds-strange-man-tightly.html

I think that instead of putting too much store in your aunty’s tales you should read Michael King’s Moriori: a people rediscovered or visit the website of the Hokotehi Trust, which represents the Moriori community today. There’s also a fascinating 1980 documentary about the Moriori which is now available online: http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/moriori-1980
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October 22, 2015 8:10pm
Kimbo

@ MetaPol

No Pagan baiters?

Plenty – anyone who, like myself, hold the Gaia-worshiping Greens in contempt 😉
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October 22, 2015 8:11pm
Southern Raider

Kimble there is no Palestinians living in Israel. They are Arabs. The nationalisation of Arabs into states was a misguided European concept and worked about as well as Yugoslavia.

“Palestinitian” was a concept dreamed up by Arafat in the 60s who ironically was an Egyptian. The Arabs living in the West Bank are in theory Jordanians because if the 1967 war hadn’t happened then Trans Jordan by definition would still mean both sides of the Jordan river.

Also contrary to belief a whole lot of Europeans didn’t just turn up in Israel this last century. Jews has lived in Israel continuously for 3000 years (just the number of was variable depending one who ruled that land at anyone time). In the late 19th century when more Jews started to immigrate there was hardly any Arabs around and those that there was were landless peasants living a very hard life with high mortality rates on land owned by rich Arabs in Beirut. The returning Jews never took any land. They actually paid good money for desert or swamp land that the rich Arabs thought they had got a bargain for. The Jews then created a modern day miracle by making Israel liveable again after centuries of waste
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October 22, 2015 8:11pm
Dave_1924

I see John Campbell is now full latched on to the state and supping deep of tax payers money

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/287723/'it-will-be-a-real-wooden-desk‘

Yip he has colonised Checkpoint and it appears the chipmunk will be viewable as it will be simulcast on the web it seems…..

Gee JC why didn’t you hold true to your crusading credentials and seek subscriptions from your supporters to form your own independent webcast show? Too risky? Not sure you’re as popular as The Standard makes out? Yip instead take the taxpayers money and have a nice cushy pulpit to have the odd rant from…..
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October 22, 2015 8:13pm
mikenmild

Reid
Now we all know you are a bit thick, but really.
The Moriori inhabited the Chathams, where they suffered genocide at the hands of Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama. They were not pre-Maori inhabitants of mainland New Zealand.
Is that simple enough for you? Perhaps there is a suitable picture book for you in the local library.
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October 22, 2015 8:13pm
MetaPol

‘Plenty – anyone who, like myself, hold the Gaia-worshiping Greens in contempt’

I hold them in contempt as well, but they would not have a clue regarding real Paganism.
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October 22, 2015 8:16pm
Reid

The Moriori inhabited the Chathams, where they suffered genocide at the hands of Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama. They were not pre-Maori inhabitants of mainland New Zealand.

Forgive me mm, but

“The Moriori inhabited the Chathams, where they suffered genocide at the hands of Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama. They were not pre-Maori inhabitants of mainland New Zealand.”

is not the same statement as:

“There is no evidence that Moriori were a separate people who arrived in New Zealand before the Maori.”

because most people consider the Chathams to be NZ and if you wanted to talk about the Moriori, then why didn’t you explain that at 6.23?

You’re not a Crown Lawyer, are you?

It’s just that they’re apparently quite slippery creatures as well, when you’re trying to get any facts or truth out of them.
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October 22, 2015 8:18pm
nasska

MetaPol

I reckon that we’re a bit short of pagans here. Religioconservatives are two a penny, we’ve got a glut of fortune tellers & there’s a mad woman who calls herself a Public Watchdog hanging around too.

On ‘NativeFlightlessBirdBlog’ sanity is optional & not expected. 🙂
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October 22, 2015 8:23pm
Griff

“There is no evidence that Moriori were a separate people who arrived in New Zealand before the Maori.”

so right Reid you finally have it.

There is evidence for when the myth was created, the reason it was created, and by whom .

There absolutely is no convincing evidence that moriori have any different origin than mainland maori.
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October 22, 2015 8:26pm
Reid

There absolutely is no convincing evidence that moriori have any different origin than mainland maori.

Is there any evidence Maori killed them Griff?

Or is that like the “evidence” for AGW?
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October 22, 2015 8:28pm
Scott Hamilton

MM’s comment is quite accurate. Eastern Polynesian settlers got to these islands about nine hundred years ago, give or take a century. They quickly spread out, and in the two main islands developed the culture we call Maori. In the Chathams, or Rekohu, a separate culture we call Moriori developed. In 1835 two Maori iwi invaded and colonised the Chathams.

The settlers of the Chathams seem to have gotten there a bit later than the settlers of the two main islands. There’s a debate about whether the settlers of the Chathams came from the main islands, or whether they came straight from tropical Eastern Polynesia. Many scholars have suggested that the settlers of the Chathams arrived from the Cook Strait area about 1300 AD, but today the Moriori leaders and scholars Maui Solomon and Susan Thorpe insist that their ancestors came directly from the tropics. It’s obvious that there was some sort of contact between very early Maori and Moriori, because we find proto-Maori tools on the Chathams, as well as Maori words in the Moriori language. But Thorpe and Solomon say these links are the result of journeys Moriori made to the main islands of Aotearoa in the first century or so after they arrived on the Chathams.
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October 22, 2015 8:30pm
mikenmild

I think Reid is a bit like bald man trying to split hairs.
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October 22, 2015 8:32pm
Reid

OK.

So did any Maori ever kill, and/or enslave any Moriori, yes or no?

Is that splitting hairs, or is that cutting through mm?
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October 22, 2015 8:34pm
Griff

They were maori that had arrived upon a isolated set of islands some time around 1500 and had developed a slightly different culture by the 1800 that is it reid.

seems scott disagres with me

I disagree with his dating
1280 give or take 20 odd years is the dating for human arrival in New Zealand supportable with evidence
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October 22, 2015 8:36pm
Kimbo

@ Southern Raider

Kimble there is no Palestinians living in Israel. They are Arabs. The nationalisation of Arabs into states was a misguided European concept and worked about as well as Yugoslavia.

So Arab people don’t get to have political representation because they don’t deserve it, or will always remain incapable?! Time to tone back the Euro-Centric racism, I’d suggest.

“Palestinian” was a concept dreamed up by Arafat in the 60s who ironically was an Egyptian

OK, like I said, it helps when you disregard the propaganda. Easy way to disabuse your nonsense: in 1947 the UN recommended…and the Zionist negotiaters accepted the partition of the region into a Jewish…and a Palestinian state.

Also contrary to belief a whole lot of Europeans didn’t just turn up in Israel this last century. Jews has lived in Israel continuously for 3000 years (just the number of was variable depending one who ruled that land at anyone time). In the late 19th century when more Jews started to immigrate

You are disingenuous and dishonest regarding the facts of the nature of the late-19th Century Jewish immigration. It was motivated, as per the fledgling European Zionist movement, to establish a Jewish state.

…there was hardly any Arabs…

And I seem to remember Afrikaaners justifying apartheid with a supposedly similar scenario with the voortrekkers

and those that there was were landless peasants living a very hard life with high mortality rates on land owned by rich Arabs in Beirut. The returning Jews never took any land. They actually paid good money for desert or swamp land that the rich Arabs thought they had got a bargain for. The Jews then created a modern day miracle by making Israel liveable again after centuries of waste

You make the period from approximately 1897 (the year of the first Zionist Congress) to 1947 (Britain punting to the UN) sound like it was seamless. But that was not so – there were differing reactions by the local Arab populace, much of it dependent on the amount of Jewish immigration, and then, when Zionist terrorists like the Irgun and Nazi-collaborating Stern gang/Lehi got going in the 1940s, straight out ethnic cleansing.

But no matter how you try and re-write history, including that “Palestinians were never a viable or real people group”, it is all just a load of propaganda. It achieves nothing, solves nothing, and leads to nowhere. Bottom line: the only way there may possibly be a lasting peace in this region is if these two peoples learn to live together. And ditching the bogus or distorted versions of history that entirely justify one and completely vilify the other is not how they are going to do that.

Look, I would love to go back in time to, say 1897, or 1917, or 1937, or 1947, and try and shake every Arab living in the region until they understood – “you have a great opportunity here! A people with great abilities, ingenuity and access to resources and a magnificent work ethic want to settle in your backyard, and make a homeland right next to you. You may not realise yet, but if you treat this right, compared to the rest of your Arab brethren, you have struck the jackpot!

Or, you can reject them…which is going to be a huge mistake that will lead to unnecessary misery and death for your people for years to come, because they are going to come, no matter what you want, and they are going to stay, no matter what you do. That might not seem entirely fair, and you are probably right. But instead of looking at what you will lose…look instead at what you can gain – the best standard of living and quality of like compared to any other Arab group in the entire Middle East!”
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October 22, 2015 8:39pm
Reid

They were maori that had arrived upon a isolated set of islands some time around 1500 and had developed a slightly different culture by the 1800 that is it reid.

And what happened next Griff?

Nothing?
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October 22, 2015 8:41pm
thedavincimode

Enough of this Moriori blah blah blah.

Why don’t we just ask Chris Faafoi? After all, he would have been there.
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October 22, 2015 8:44pm
mikenmild

Reid

So did any Maori ever kill, and/or enslave any Moriori, yes or no?

You might as well say that my comment at 8.13 was beyond your comprehension.

I’m not sure that I could have put it more plainly than:

The Moriori inhabited the Chathams, where they suffered genocide at the hands of Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama.

So the answer to your question is – yes.
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October 22, 2015 8:46pm
Griff

Maori from the mainland invaded Two boat loads of Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama arrived November 19 1835 and 5 December 1835
They slaughtered most the locals and enslaved the rest.
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October 22, 2015 8:47pm
thedavincimode

Kind of like a day trip to the beach for a barbecue grief?
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October 22, 2015 8:49pm
Reid

You might as well say that my comment at 8.13 was beyond your comprehension.

OK.

So, I again ask: did any Maori ever kill, and/or enslave any Moriori, yes or no?

They slaughtered most the locals and enslaved the rest.

Honest answer from Griff.

Waiting for mm.
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October 22, 2015 8:50pm
Kimbo

Typo above. Meant to write

And holding on to the bogus or distorted versions of history that entirely justify one and completely vilify the other is not how they are going to do that.
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October 22, 2015 8:50pm
Odakyu-sen

nasska,

Okay, let’s run with this one.

“Would they survive? Over here we would immediately shower them with more money & cuddles while apologising for their post colonial shock. Are they totally helpless because of this or despite this?”

The suburbs of the Tokyo Metropolis (say, 20 km from the CDB) is an area where there are few gai-jin (Caucasian foreigners). The brownness of this South Auckland family would not be to their advantage.

Assume that they have gotten into the country and breached the official line of immigration officialdom, they would last in the suburbs of Saitama or Kanagawa Prefectures for about 12 hours (tops). How so? Well, there are some things about Japanese suburban society that most people from overseas haven’t experienced.

Auckland is different. After midnight, the suburban streets are quiet until the start of rush hour the next morning. Japan is different. The streets never sleep. At all hours of the day and night, someone is out walking. These could be students returning from late-night studies. Salarymen coming back home after having caught the last train home. There are dog walkers at 2:30 a.m., and insomniacs, and all other manner of shift and night workers going to and from the factories and businesses. The streets (all streets and paths) will have a pedestrian passing by every 5 minutes or so.

Secondly, Japanese is a highly visual culture. You can tell the age, weight and gender of a person by the way that they walk. Foreigners walk differently to Japanese. They have different strides and gaits. Sensitivity is an admired trait. People, once they settle down in a job, buy a house and life out their lives in their suburb (mostly). Think of Tokyo as a series of giant, interlocking “Stonefields” where everyone knows who the people on their street are.

Thirdly, Japanese have some of the world’s most advanced smartphones (with earthquake early warning and other civil functions). Everyone is packing one, and they know how to use them. From childhood, the notion of “report anything unusual” is drilled in.

Fourthly, the Japanese counterpart of the English bobby of the 1950s is alive and well, riding around his beat on his white Honda Cub 50 or his white bicycle at all hours.

In essence, there are human eyes and ears watching the streets at all times. Our South Auckland family would be spotted as soon as the sun went down and all the tourists had gone home. There would be a silent call to the local police station, and then the white bicycles would quietly approach.
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October 22, 2015 8:53pm
mikenmild

Reid
Oh dear. Sorry, I realised that repeating my answer from 8.13 would go over your head, again. So I edited to add a simple ‘yes’ as a reply you can comprehend.
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October 22, 2015 8:55pm
Odakyu-sen

nasska,

Refugee status? Not likely.

Read this: http://thediplomat.com/2015/09/japans-role-in-the-refugee-crisis/
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October 22, 2015 8:58pm
blazeoflight

Meanwhile, the imaginary global warming hiatus is wee and truly over

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/the-graphic-that-shows-why-2015-global-temperatures-are-off-the-charts-20151021-gkf8b0.html
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October 22, 2015 9:01pm
nasska

Sounds like their stay would be brief Odakyu-Sen. Probably just as well since it doesn’t seem that a career of burglary or car conversion would be particularly rewarding.

We’re stuck with the bludgers. 🙂
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October 22, 2015 9:03pm
MetaPol

‘I reckon that we’re a bit short of pagans here.’

Not anymore. Though I’m not sure if I will stick around or not.
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October 22, 2015 9:06pm
Kimbo

@ Southern Raider

“Palestinian” was a concept dreamed up by Arafat in the 60s who ironically was an Egyptian

OK, like I said, it helps when you disregard the propaganda. Easy way to disabuse your nonsense: in 1947 the UN recommended…and the Zionist negotiaters accepted the partition of the region into a Jewish…and a Palestinian state.

And my apologies – on closer inspection I see my quoting exact terminology was not entirely accurate- the 1947 UN partition plan recommended independent “Jewish” and “Arab” states within Palestine.

However, as Sykes-Picot had previously created within Arab states in the wider region with distinct names and soon-to-emerge nationalities based in part on existing tribal groups (and sometimes merely the stroke of a pen!) such as Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, then what the UN recommended, and what Zionist negotiators accepted in 1947 was, in effect an Arab state of “Palestine”.

Or if you want to quibble about the terminology, then, as per the wording of the 1947 Plan, would you then also have to insist “Israel” is not a valid designation, and you should permanently use the term “Jewish state” instead?!
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October 22, 2015 9:07pm
Scott Chris

Kimbo (3,136 comments) says:
October 22nd, 2015 at 8:11 pm
Plenty – anyone who, like myself, hold the Gaia-worshiping Greens in contempt ?

That’s a bit rich coming from a Christian. Attributing a consciousness to nature makes more sense to me than manufacturing a god in our own image.
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October 22, 2015 9:07pm
Griff

Sort of with naked woman and stakes and things te devinci

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03014223.1994.9517454
The earliest human occupation remains (Moriori) are in Kekerionean sands and the inferred date for Moriori settlement of Chatham Island is between 400 and 450 years BP
Bp is 1 January 1950 In radio carbon usage,
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October 22, 2015 9:08pm
Fletch

re; pre-Maori – there is a whole series of articles on the DNA testing of one of the red or fair-haired, clear-eyed people (Maori historically referred to them as the Waitaha, Turehu and Patupaiarehe) who were here before Maori, and recalling a language that is not Maori.

Changing Our New Zealand History
Tears run from her translucent eyes as Monica Matamua learns the news that may change the path for her tribe and answer questions that have been haunting her whanau for generations.

Eyes are the windows to the soul and for 72-year-old Monica, her eyes tell a story better than any words can. Those hazel eyes speak of a tribe of people, steeped in history and entwined throughout the years of Maori folklore, yet until now, fobbed off as eccentrics, strangers and in some cases, ‘mystical beings’.

The Patupaiarehe people (and the Urukehu) are well known for their light skin, fair hair and translucent eyes, which is evident when looking at Monica, who has been bullied and teased for years because of the way she looks. “I always knew I was different, but it has been a long and difficult fight to tell my story.”

A grandmother of 62 children and great grandmother of two, the beauty that emanates from this sweet and gentle woman belies a life of abuse from school friends, ignorance from other tribes and constant struggles with the Treaty of Waitangi land claim department.

Unlike many Maori people, Monica believes that her tribe came from a different lineage, one which travelled from overseas and brought new and interesting skills to New Zealand. Mostly, she believes that these people did not find New Zealand by mistake, in fact they mapped their way to the country.

Along with the special connection her people have with their land, Monica also speaks of a language which is almost extinct and is nothing like the Maori language that is taught in schools and originates from Nga Puhi.
“There are only two people in our tribe that can speak our language now and it is nothing like Maori, in fact it is nothing like a language I have ever heard before.”

Monica ascertains that the Ngati Hotu tribe spans back 74 generations (40 generations longer than the descendants of Kupe) and she believes her people come from a different background to other tribes. This is evidenced by the different skin tone, hair and eye colour of her ancestors. “We have red hair and fair skin. I have felt different to my friends because of the way I look all my life.”

Until recently Monica only had her family history to fall back on, history that had been handed down from parent to child for 74 generations. However, she now believes that thanks to modern day technology, her family might finally have the answer they have dreamt of for so long.

The stories that Monica has shared with her family sometimes fell on deaf ears, but it wasn’t until she participated in the National Geographic DNA Ancestry Project that she began to get answers to her questions.

In the DNA project, citizens worldwide are given the opportunity to find out more about their ancestors using genetic genealogy. It asks the question, how did your family end up in the country you live in?

The results of Monica’s DNA test are back and they have life-changing findings that have rocked both Monica’s life and, she believes, will change the general consensus regarding the existence of the Ngati Hotu tribe and their many generations of association with New Zealand and the land that is so dear to them.
In the next edition, we find out Monica’s DNA results.

http://www.elocal.co.nz/View_Article~Id~1076~title~DNA_to_Rock_the_nation_Part_1.html

Other parts –

http://elocal.co.nz/View_Article~Id~1108~title~Changing_Our_NZ_History._DNA_to_Rock_the_Nation_Part_2.html
http://elocal.co.nz/View_Article~Id~1148~title~DNA_to_Rock_the_nation_Part_3.html
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October 22, 2015 9:09pm
mikenmild

Franklin e-local is a reliable source of pseudohistory, Fletch. This has been noted on Kiwiblog many times before.
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October 22, 2015 9:11pm
Reid

Reid
Oh dear. Sorry, I realised that repeating my answer from 8.13 would go over your head, again. So I edited to add a simple ‘yes’ as a reply you can comprehend.

But mm, you said @ 6.23 that:

There is no evidence that Moriori were a separate people who arrived in New Zealand before the Maori.

However then you said:

Reid
Now we all know you are a bit thick, but really.
The Moriori inhabited the Chathams, where they suffered genocide at the hands of Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama. They were not pre-Maori inhabitants of mainland New Zealand.
Is that simple enough for you? Perhaps there is a suitable picture book for you in the local library.

You’re really sounding like a Crown Lawyer arguiing the “learned” case for the dear old Tangata Wehnua before a friendly fora like the Waitangi Tribunal mm.
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October 22, 2015 9:13pm
Fletch

e-local has a whole heap of stuff about the pre-colonialization of NZ.

http://www.elocal.co.nz/View_Article.aspx?Id=122&title=NEW_ZEALAND_HISTORY_UNDER_SIEGE_PART_3_Hidden_Wonders_in_Waipoua_Forest

Plenty to dig through on ‘History-Series-

http://www.elocal.co.nz/ArticleSearchResults.aspx?cat=1003&keyword=&start=1&end=10
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October 22, 2015 9:17pm
MetaPol

Yeah no, I don’t think so. For what is described as a right wing political blog, I was expecting something very different.
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October 22, 2015 9:18pm
Kimbo

@ Scott Chris

Kimbo (3,136 comments) says:
October 22nd, 2015 at 8:11 pm
Plenty – anyone who, like myself, hold the Gaia-worshiping Greens in contempt ?

That’s a bit rich coming from a Christian. Attributing a consciousness to nature makes more sense to me than manufacturing a god in our own image.That’s a bit rich coming from a Christian. Attributing a consciousness to nature makes more sense to me than manufacturing a god in our own image.

Memo to Scott Chris: Learn to recognise irony. It makes life more enjoyable. Plus I’m not so sure all pagans ascribe “consciousness” to nature. But you’ve pricked my curiosity, so I’ll check it out.

But on second thoughts the problem may be that “paganism” is more likely a diffuse, eclectic and changing collection of optional beliefs, rather than a fixed catechism as with Judaeo-Christianity.
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October 22, 2015 9:18pm
mikenmild

Are you imagining a contradiction there, Reid? Do I need to explain it a little more simply for you?

Polynesians arrived in New Zealand from the Eastern Pacific centuries ago. It appears that this was one wave of exploration and colonisation. It is not known whether the Moriori came from New Zealand to the Chatham or arrived directly from Eastern Polynesia. Either way, they are not a separate race to Maori. Moriori are best thought of as a separate Maori iwi – they have linguistic and cultural difference from other iwi.
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October 22, 2015 9:21pm
blazeoflight

@Kimbo 8:39pm

Zionism was founded on the concept of expelling the indigenous people of Palestine. There was never an opportunity for partnership: Euorpean Jews arrived with hostile intent. This is well recorded by eminent historians.

Palestinians would have seen off the invasion except for the bias of the British towards Arabs, particularly during the great revolt, weakening the Arab population so that the Jew’s military push for possession that actually began in earnest late 1947 had a much easier road. By then, the locals had been substantially disarmed, and many of their best fighting men killed in battle, executed or jailed.

If the mandate had instead been awarded to the US, a prospect greatly favoured by the Palestinians, Israel would not exist. The US had already expressed concern about Jewish inward migration into Palestine, albeit at the same time as turning them away from the US. Bear in mind that the US was disinterested in Israel until the successful 1967 attacks on Egypt and Syria. After that, geopolitics swayed the US towards Israel, and that evil policy setting continues to this day.
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October 22, 2015 9:21pm
Griff

MetaPol
General debate ain’t kb;s most sane play pit.
Especially after dark.
If you dont want to play with us loons stick to the topical posts many do.
Wait till you meet ugly truth
now there is somebody who really needs med;s
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October 22, 2015 9:22pm
Kimbo

@ blazeoflight

Zionism was founded on the concept of expelling the indigenous people of Palestine. There was never an opportunity for partnership: Euorpean Jews arrived with hostile intent. This is well recorded by eminent historians.

Cited sources, please!
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October 22, 2015 9:23pm
Andrei

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWO239wZiEg
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October 22, 2015 9:24pm
mikenmild

Fletch
As I noted above, Franklin e-local is a well-known source of crankery. Neo-Nazi associations, too:

http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2009/11/mykeljon-picks-another-loser.html
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October 22, 2015 9:25pm
Griff

Gaia has something to say
http://www.skepticalscience.com//pics/2015Toon42.jpg
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October 22, 2015 9:26pm
Odakyu-sen

nasska,

This clip, made by an Australian ex-pat in Japan (love the accent) will answer your questions well, I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvBsixRbNy0

Sobering stuff… Such a system is unheard of in NZ. (Maybe it would work?)
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October 22, 2015 9:26pm
Kimbo

@ blazeoflight

And if “Zionism founded on the concept of expelling the indigenous people of Palestine”, then it would seem the modern state of Israel has done a pretty piss-poor job regarding the million or so Arabs within her borders, who enjoy the full rights, privileges and benefits of Israeli citizenship.

Like I said to Southern Raider, propaganda, no matter from which side is a waste of time, and should be quickly discarded. “Yes you did! – No I didn’t” does not solve marriage problems, let alone an on-going political dispute.
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October 22, 2015 9:29pm
blazeoflight

@Kimbo 7:45pm and 9:29pm

In fact, there are over 50 laws in Israel discriminating against Palestinian citizens of that country, and there are constant threats to include the land they live on in a peace settlement land swap deal i.e expulsion from Israel.

http://www.adalah.org/en/law/index

And Palestinians generally are at the bottom end of socioeconomic indicators simply because of overt discrimination.
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October 22, 2015 9:35pm
blazeoflight

@Kimbo 9.23pm

So many I can’t remember them all, but start with Ilan Pappe, Tom Segev and Avi Shlaim.

They should keep you quiet for a while!

Oh, and the early works of Benny Morris before he took fright. In a later book, Morris expressed disappointment that Israel didn’t complete the task of killing or expelling all Palestinians from the land between the river and the sea. Nice fellow.
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October 22, 2015 9:43pm
AgentBallSack

Goodbye Russel you fucktard.
Thanks for nothing

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/73301519/Russel-Norman-delivers-final-jabs-to-Government-in-speech-to-Parliament
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October 22, 2015 9:56pm
Kimbo

@ blazeoflight

…And Palestinians generally are at the bottom end of socioeconomic indicators simply because of overt discrimination.

—————-
@Kimbo 9.23pm

So many I can’t remember them all, but start with Ilan Pappe, Tom Segev and Avi Shlaim.

They should keep you quiet for a while!

Fair enough. However, whenever considering what a scholar or commentator has to say, I usually find it is worthwhile to have all the cards on the table, and establish first their theoretical perspective. In your case, would it be a form of dialectic analysis (Marxism? Ethnic studies?) by any chance?

But nonetheless, thank you. I will investigate with interest…but it may take a bit more than that to shut me up 😉
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October 22, 2015 9:57pm
Scott Chris

Plus I’m not so sure all pagans ascribe “consciousness” to nature.

Okay I’ll try to see the irony if you can refrain from digressing.
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October 22, 2015 9:57pm
Fletch

mm, doing a piece on the results of a DNA test which is part of the National Geographic DNA Ancestry Project seems pretty unbiased to me. Not much you can get wrong.
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October 22, 2015 10:00pm
blazeoflight

A good example of Israel’s benevolence towards Palestinians: driven off their land by acts of war and terror, forcibly prevented from returning, then dispossessed by Israeli law for not returning.

http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/3d14c9e5cdaa296d85256cbf005aa3eb/e0b719e95e3b494885256f9a005ab90a?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,1936

Cute, huh?
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October 22, 2015 10:01pm
Kimbo

@ Scott Chris

Plus I’m not so sure all pagans ascribe “consciousness” to nature.

Okay I’ll try to see the irony if you can refrain from digressing.

Memo to Scott Chris: It can’t be “digressing” when someone quotes you directly.
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October 22, 2015 10:02pm
Kimbo

@ blazeoflight

A good example of Israel’s benevolence towards Palestinians: driven off their land by acts of war and terror, forcibly prevented from returning, then dispossessed by Israeli law for not returning.

Cute, huh?

And you seem like a poor reader as I used the term “ethnic cleansing” to describe the actions of the Irgun and Stern Gang in 1947.

But then recognition of the state of Israel would certainly go a long way to towards taking a first step to being allowed to return.

So just to be sure of where you are coming from, blazeoflight, do you think “driving the Jews into the sea” is the best and most equitable means of addressing that injustice? Like I say, just trying to determine your perspective…and what you think are the practical means of resolving the current situation?
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October 22, 2015 10:07pm
blazeoflight

@Kimbo 9:57pm

They are historians who access Isarel’s historical records as the restricted classification expires. They are all Israeli. Their works are heavily documented. You would have to ask them about their theoretical perspective, but I suspect they all attempted an objective search for facts.
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October 22, 2015 10:08pm
Scott Hamilton

Fletch links to an article about a DNA test that a woman who claims to belong to a pre-Maori people from the Middle East undertook with the help of Franklin E Local, the rather eccentric giveaway publication that promotes conspiracy theories involving UFOs and Catholics* as well as NZ history. E Local thinks that the DNA test demonstrates that the woman in question really does have ancient links with the Middle East, because certain genetic markers associated with that part of the world show up in her results. The trouble is that E Local didn’t ask any experts to analyse the results, and without expert analysis, no one can know how old the genetic link with the Middle East is. Dating genetic traces is a very complex business. A significant number of Assyrian and Lebanese came to NZ in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and some interbred with Maori.

Lisa Matisoo-Smith, who is NZ’s foremost expert on the use of DNA to uncover human migration patterns, pointed all this out last year, when Native Affairs ran an investigation into E Local’s claims about NZ history and its links with neo-Nazis.

*Just for Fletch, here’s one of the magazine’s demented exercises in anti-Catholic and Ufological conspiracy theory: http://www.elocal.co.nz/View_Article.aspx?Id=826&title=Project_X_Files_Part_6_The_Prophesies_Of_Malachy_To_1000_Years_Of_Peace
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October 22, 2015 10:12pm
Scott Chris

It can’t be “digressing” when someone quotes you directly.

Where did I say (all) Pagans ascribe consciousness to nature? (you imply all)

Really it isn’t worth arguing about, but you do have a habit of introducing elements into a discussion that appear to be part of your own internal dialogue but which aren’t part of the actual dialogue.
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October 22, 2015 10:13pm
Scott Hamilton

‘Moriori are best thought of as a separate Maori iwi – they have linguistic and cultural difference from other iwi’

To be fair, I think Moriori themselves today would say they are best thought of as another Eastern Polynesian people, like the Rarotongans or the people of Rapa Iti – similar to Maori in many ways, but not Maori.
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October 22, 2015 10:20pm
blazeoflight

@Kimbo 10:07

In that comment I was responding to your post alleging that Israel Palestinians possessed full democratic rights in Israel. The link is simply an example of one discriminatory law, that’s all.

If you read through the Unispal files you will find lots of interesting stuff that is not generally known.

Practical solutions: I start from the position that Israel wants complete possession of Greater Israel (some extreme Israelis extend that to Eretz Israel) and although it has given up on Gaza, it will continue to squeeze the life from Palestinian society in the West Bank. Here is what has happened to date:

https://mobile.twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/657097408002826240/photo/1

So support the Palestinian cause, support BDS, don’t give in to the campaign of demonisation of millions of innocent people, as illustrated by Netanyahu just today, vote for parties that care (Greens), and support legal resistance to the occupation.

What needs to happen is that the occupation is made costly for Israel until it is forced back to the armistice lines and perhaps a peacekeeping force installed to protect Palestinians from what would be a very pissed off Israel.
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October 22, 2015 10:30pm
Scott Hamilton

Fletch also links to one of E Local’s articles about the supposed conspiracy to hide a stone city that an advanced white civilisation built thousands of years ago on land now covered by the Waipoua Forest. I had a discussion with a believer in this particular conspiracy theory on KB a few weeks ago, and was pretty unimpressed: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2015/09/the_treaty_and_the_magna_carta.html#comments
The E Local and other conspiracy theorists endlessly talk about a 75 year moratorium on a passage in a report on Waipoua forest, and suggest this moratorium is a sign that something sinister is being hidden. It turns out, though, that the repressed passages were made available in 1996. It seems that a conspiracy theory can rest on the lightest foundations…
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October 22, 2015 10:31pm
itstricky

Fletch also links to one of E Local’s articles about the supposed conspiracy to hide a stone city that an advanced white civilisation built thousands of years ago on land now covered by the Waipoua Forest.

LOL. I’m pretty sure I started this whole thing off yesterday. And one of my direct questions to Unity then was:

I don’t suppose you’re going to tell me they (supposed people in NZ before Maori) had fair skin and red hair?

Apparently my views then were just too “whacky” that Unity couldn’t continue a conversation.

Life imitates art; Real life is more stupid than fiction ‘n’ all that.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2015/10/watkins_on_key.html#comment-1603152
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October 22, 2015 11:20pm
Kimbo

@ blazeoflight

What needs to happen is that the occupation is made costly for Israel until it is forced back to the armistice lines and perhaps a peacekeeping force installed to protect Palestinians from what would be a very pissed off Israel.

Sir (or Madam) , I think we are in agreement!
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October 22, 2015 11:54pm
Kimbo

@ Scott Chris

Where did I say (all) Pagans ascribe consciousness to nature? (you imply all)

Really it isn’t worth arguing about, but you do have a habit of introducing elements into a discussion that appear to be part of your own internal dialogue but which aren’t part of the actual dialogue.

Thread trail:

“Kimbo: @ MetaPol

No Pagan baiters?

Plenty – anyone who, like myself, hold the Gaia-worshiping Greens in contempt ?”

Scott Chris (9:07 pm): “…Attributing a consciousness to nature makes more sense to me than manufacturing a god in our own image.”, i.e., you are arguing why you consider a defining tenet of paganism is supposedly superior to Christianity.

Kimbo: “Learn to recognise irony…Plus I’m not so sure all pagans ascribe “consciousness” to nature”

Scott Chris: “(try to) refrain from digressing"

Kimbo: “It can’t be “digressing” when someone quotes you directly.”

Scott Chris: “Where did I say (all) Pagans ascribe consciousness to nature? (you imply all)” Actually Chris, it was you said/wrote it, and implied “all” in your post at 9:07. I actually qualified that it is perhaps not all: “But on second thoughts the problem may be that “paganism” is more likely a diffuse, eclectic and changing collection of optional beliefs” (09:18pm)

Do keep up, please!
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October 23, 2015 12:14am
Kimbo

@ Scott Chris

…Really it isn’t worth arguing about…

Shooting fish in a barrel is always (to quote you) “worth arguing about”.
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October 23, 2015 12:24am
SPC

Can I play?

1. people should not conflate Moriori with a people here before Maori.

The Moroiori culture developed on the Chathams after arrival there c1500CE. The Moriori are Polynesian and whether they arrived direct to the Chathams or migrated from the mainland is not beyond continuing debate/examination

2. There is no evidence of settlement prior to c1250CE. And none by non Polynesians.

Maori in the main come from the southern Cooks (closest language connection) – where there are 7 island satellites of Rarotonga the main island chief “bull”. The 7 canoes and the seven stars of Matariki. In Egypt, known as the land of Pleiades – the stars are seen as satellites under protection of the Taurus bull.

3. The Maori myth is of a three stage migration.

Kupe, then Toi (Kapiti) and Whatonga, then the 7 canoes. Whatonga = Nga Tahu iwi = Nga Waitoha.
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October 23, 2015 1:04am
SPC

The current state of the game.

Israel committed to a 2 state solution while continuing to settle occupied territory regarded as belonging to a future Palestinian state (and expecting to be able to negotiate the inclusion of settlement areas into the Israel state by swapping areas of Israel land without Jewish settlers).

The PLO continuing to reign in the Palestinian Authority (of an interim self government period before a two state agreement is reached) but now more interested in UN recognition for it as representative of a 1967 border Palestine state (observer status for now) under Israeli occupation – thus the resort to intifada and accusations that Israel is messing with Moslem status in Jerusalem.

And all the BBC can say about this is …

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34574958
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October 23, 2015 1:38am
SPC

southern raider,

Arafat’s mother, Zahwa Abul Saud, was from a Jerusalem-based family. If Jews are Jewish, because their mother is Jewish (and thus have the right to migrate to Israel to live), then Arafat is a native of Jerusalem as his mother was born there. Palestinians in exile were either born there or have a parent/grandparent born in pre 1948 Palestine who was expelled from the land of their birth.

Neither Egypt or Jordan annexed OR settled Gaza and the West Bank while occupying them 1948-1967 as this was of the area set aside for a Palestine state – which in 1947 became partitioned into 2 areas – one for a Jewish majority and one for an Arab majority. Israel of course annexed some of the land awarded for an Arab majority state in 1948-49 – and this is one reason (another was opposition to the division of Palestine into 2 states in the first place) why Egypt and Jordan did not allow Palestinian self government (and why locals did not contest this occupation).

The loss of land in 1948-49 is one reason why many Palestinians went into exile and remain in exile. The trauma over it is one reason why peace on 1967 borders is so hard for them (and so they want right of return) and why Abbas regrets the Arab rejection of two states on the borders proposed in 1947.

Many Palestinians are of northern Semite DNA, it is a genetic stock that also includes many Syrians, Lebanese as well as Jews. They may speak the Arabic spoken by those in Iraq and North Africa and Arabia, but they are of this local region. Some could be descendants of Jews who became Christians who became Moslems etc. Their DNA is so alike.

PS, one can quibble about whether the all the Arab/Palestinian refugees of 1948 were expelled, certainly many/some left the area to get clear of fighting, then were not allowed to return to Israeli occupied territory.
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October 23, 2015 2:21am
Scott Chris

Do keep up, please!

(rolls eyes) Gaia worship does not encompass paganism. It’s really that simple when you stop listening to the echos in your own head.

Remember what your mother told you about the word assume? Better watch out for those barrel fish; slippery buggers’ll make you shoot yourself in the foot.
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October 23, 2015 8:06am
Scott Chris

(parting shot)Kimbo I’m starting to wonder whether you’re simply conducting research into how successful you can be by confidently and eloquently spouting absolute nonsense. You lookin for a job with the Republican Party? 🙂
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October 23, 2015 8:13am
Scott Hamilton

‘There is no evidence of settlement prior to c1250CE. And none by non Polynesians.’

That’s really the insuperable problem. All these thousands of Europeans supposedly here thousands of years ago, building earthworks all over the landscape – and yet they haven’t left behind a single piece of pottery or sword or coin for us to find. With all the building work going on in Auckland, where the conspiracy theorists claim there was a huge European city, I’d expect a new find every day.
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October 23, 2015 8:26am
Kimbo

@ Scott Chris

Do keep up, please!

(rolls eyes) Gaia worship does not encompass paganism. It’s really that simple when you stop listening to the echos in your own head.

Remember what your mother told you about the word assume? Better watch out for those barrel fish; slippery buggers’ll make you shoot yourself in the foot.

(rolls eyes even more) Hence my clarification for the habitually dull that my phrase, “the Gaia-worshiping Greens”…was ironic…which you previously acknowledged.

So will you please stop going around in a circle.
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October 23, 2015 11:01am
Scott Chris

Hence my clarification for the habitually dull

and

So will you please stop going around in a circle

Haha, nice trolling – as in; exhibit the above and accuse me of them. Oh and..

..was ironic…which you previously acknowledged.

..is completely made up. I merely said I’d look for the irony (on the condition that you’d refrain from digressing but let’s ignore that for now) but as it happens I wasn’t able to locate any as I trawled back through your pompous wittering to try to establish some context.

Have a nice day 🙂
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October 23, 2015 2:35pm

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