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October 14, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 14 October 2015

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RF

Interesting photo of our Sir to be, Ritchie McCaw being greeted by our dear Queen. Ritchie was doing all the right things… As you do when meeting the Queen.

The stupid clod Steve Hansen whilst standing in line behind Ritchie to press the flesh is clutching a glass of bubbly. All arse and no class Steve. Surprised you did not have a hot dog in the other hand.

The British press are going to love this one.
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October 14, 2015 1:21pm
SPC

As you know TPP requires us to allow foreigners to buy our land and houses.

John Key says that we can use tax as a means to manage this – if we feel the need. I am not so sure that this is the case and he must know this.

The FTA with China says that we cannot place any tax on their investors that does not also apply on New Zealanders – we must have the same tax regime for both.

Thus any tax regime to control foreign buy up of land and property would also fall on New Zealanders.
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October 14, 2015 1:28pm
Fletch

From a speech by Cardinal Robert Sarah given during the Synod on the Family, going on right now, where he discusses the twin threats we face today: Western gender ideology and ISIS.

A theological discernment enables us to see in our time two unexpected threats (almost like two “apocalyptic beasts”) located on opposite poles: on the one hand, the idolatry of Western freedom; on the other, Islamic fundamentalism: atheistic secularism versus religious fanaticism. To use a slogan, we find ourselves between “gender ideology and ISIS”. Islamic massacres and libertarian demands regularly contend for the front page of the newspapers.

From these two radicalizations arise the two major threats to the family: its subjectivist disintegration in the secularized West through quick and easy divorce, abortion, homosexual unions, euthanasia etc. (cf. Gender theory, the ‘Femen’, the LGBT lobby, IPPF …). On the other hand, the pseudo-family of ideologized Islam which legitimizes polygamy, female subservience, sexual slavery, child marriage etc. (cf. Al Qaeda, Isis, Boko Haram …)

Several clues enable us to intuit the same demonic origin of these two movements. Unlike the Spirit of Truth that promotes communion in the distinction (perichoresis), these encourage confusion (homo-gamy) or subordination (poly-gamy). Furthermore, they demand a universal and totalitarian rule, are violently intolerant, destroyers of families, society and the Church, and are openly Christianophobic.

“We are not contending against creatures of flesh and blood ….” We need to be inclusive and welcoming to all that is human; but what comes from the Enemy cannot and must not be assimilated. You can not join Christ and Belial! What Nazi-Fascism and Communism were in the 20th century, Western homosexual and abortion Ideologies and Islamic Fanaticism are today.

We must proclaim the truth without fear, i.e. the Plan of God, which is monogamy in conjugal love open to life.

http://aleteia.org/2015/10/13/synod-fathers-from-hollywood-to-homosexuality-fantasy-games-to-fundamentalism/
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October 14, 2015 1:32pm
SPC

Fletch, how do you know what the plan of God is?

According to the bible God chose to work with the ancestors of a nation of polygamists.

Gradually rules increased, such as to prevent a man from marrying his wife’s sister. Then the nation’s culture was criticised as becoming increasingly bureaucratic and rule bound – by someone who called for monogamy for life and no second chances in marriage, but forgiveness in all other things.
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October 14, 2015 2:00pm
kowtow

Interesting how our media and western media orgs go into full on loon mode whenever a white cop shoots a black criminal n the US.

Meanwhile Israelis are being indiscriminately slaughtered in the streets by Arabs and it’s ho hum ,not much to see here……

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/jihadists_attack_in_israel/
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October 14, 2015 2:00pm
Nookin

SPC
“The FTA with China says that we cannot place any tax on their investors that does not also apply on New Zealanders – we must have the same tax regime for both.

Thus any tax regime to control foreign buy up of land and property would also fall on New Zealanders.”

Would that include a tax payable on acquisition, such as stamp duty? The obligation to which you refer only applies after acquisition.
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October 14, 2015 2:03pm
kowtow

RF

Poor Ronan O’Gara was hammered by some and praised by loon republicans over this picture of him meeting HM. Each side wanted a piece of it for different reasons.

Here’s his own very humble take on the issue.It was a massive beat up.

http://www.irishtimes.com/if-i-didn-t-like-the-queen-i-wouldn-t-have-travelled-1.1582248
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October 14, 2015 2:10pm
Griff

its subjectivist disintegration in the secularized West through quick and easy divorce,

I will give you a hint fletch Because you are talking a load of shit some retard pulled from his arse.
Find out the difference in divorce rate between liberal more secular and Republican more Christian states
Then come back and explain why?
After that look into the religion of those in jails and the number of atheists.
Explain why more Christians are in jail?
Do the same exercise this time unwed mothers in Republican sates and liberal sates.
Gee the actual facts say you god whackers are the problems not the secularist .

Feminism is one of the major differences between us in the west and them in the middle east
Not so much a deference between Christian conservatives and fundamental Muslims .

We must proclaim the truth without fear, God whacking is truthfully a sign of corrupt morals
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October 14, 2015 2:12pm
alloytoo

@Kimbo

It’s not so much a question of who watches the watchmen, but (in Penny’s case) who appointed them in the first place.
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October 14, 2015 2:21pm
Kimbo

@ alloytoo

@Kimbo

It’s not so much a question of who watches the watchmen, but (in Penny’s case) who appointed them in the first place.

Hmm. They call themselves the “99%” so they must be right!

Mind you, based on Mana’s performance at the last election, were they referring to the proportion who vote against?!
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October 14, 2015 2:25pm
Kimbo

@ alloytoo

But I may have been slightly inaccurate in Penny’s case: –

http://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2014/electorate-15.html

Official Count Results — Helensville

BRIGHT, Penny IND 420
TOTAL 34,860

= 1.20%
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October 14, 2015 2:34pm
SPC

Nookin, sounds like a great question for an OIA.

Stamp duty in Oz applies to all purchases, but they block foreign purchases. Other countries (as does Oz) already have CGT on all property (excluding residential occupation).
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October 14, 2015 2:38pm
Sponge

BRIGHT, Penny IND 420

I am quite honestly staggered that there are 420 people deranged enough to vote for her.
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October 14, 2015 2:56pm
stephieboy

Griff, indeed ,

“Not so much a deference between Christian conservatives and fundamental Muslims “.

I think if those like Fletch looked more closely at their belief and morality systems then there is not that separating them from
islamic Theocracies even including the Islamic State !

And I see now you swallow what Putin and his RT say. Now pro Putin and Assad ?

Now I wonder why that might be ?
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October 14, 2015 2:57pm
kowtow

There’s a world of a difference between “love your neighbour as yourself” and “kill the unbelievers where ever you find them”.

Feminism? Pfft, socialist clap trap.
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October 14, 2015 3:04pm
stephieboy

Padriv Ustoev (366 comments) says:
October 14th, 2015 at 10:45 am

Yes a BUK system might be complex but that does not preclude either Russian personal or Rebel trained operating it. The facts are the Rebels shot down Ukraine military aircraft just prior including a An 26 military transport flying at 21,000 ft . ( 3 days prior ) That could only have been bought down by a BUK not a MANPAD shoulder launcher ,

http://www.jacdec.de/2014/07/14/2014-07-14-ukraine-air-force-antonov-an-26-shot-down-in-eastern-ukraine/

Now who is the real twerp ?
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October 14, 2015 3:07pm
KevinH

Statement from the Chief Ombudsman’s Office:

Chief Ombudsman’s statement on High Court TPPA Decision
Tuesday, 13 October 2015, 5:05 pm
Press Release: Office of the Ombudsman

Chief Ombudsman’s statement on High Court TPPA Decision

Date: 13 October 2015

The High Court’s decision released today requiring the Minister of Trade to reconsider his decision relating to Professor Jane Kelsey’s request for information about the TPPA relates only to the decision making process followed by the Minister.

As the judgment makes clear, the Court was not concerned with the merits of the Minister’s decision or the Chief Ombudsman’s report following her independent investigation and review.

The Court made no finding on whether the Official Information Act provided proper grounds for refusal of Professor Kelsey’s request. The Court declined to make the declarations sought by the plaintiff and instead quashed the Minister’s decision and directed him to reconsider Professor Kelsey’s original request.

Any suggestion that the Court passed judgement on the merits of the Chief Ombudsman’s decision is incorrect.

Ends
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October 14, 2015 3:13pm
stephieboy

kowtow, as observered many anti feminist and misogynists like you are more in harmony with Shatia than you would care to admit !
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October 14, 2015 3:15pm
Kimbo

@ Sponge

I am quite honestly staggered that there are 420 people deranged enough to vote for her.

There are a number of folks with “alternate perspectives” in the wider-Helensville are. Not to mention the Dot Com mansion I think…

Plus it is easy to tick an Independent for your choice for an MP, as you may not want to vote for anyone on the ballot with a party affiliation, thus having no real knowledge of who they are and what they represent.

In other words Penny’s real support could have been as low as a miserable couple of dozen malcontents…
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October 14, 2015 3:36pm
Andrei

No – Stephieboy that An 26 military transport was shot down as it was landing.

The Boeing was shot down as it was approaching the Russian border and was already under observation by Rostov air control.

The facts are being distorted to make you believe what the architects of mayhem want you to believe

The report ‘talks about a warhead and implies it was delivered by a “Russian made Buk”.

In Soviet times BUKs some were actually manufactured in Ukraine, variants are also manufactured in Belarus and China.

Eventually the truth will out, it is known by the Americans and the Russians, you can count on it and perhaps others as well but it will be suppressed for as long as necessary and by the time the truth is known nobody will care anymore.
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October 14, 2015 3:46pm
SPC

Padriv Ustoev,

I know you send up Moslems by pretending to be one.

You infer the heroic rebels of Ukraine, resisting the tyranny oppressing them, are incompetent local peasants who need to import uber drivers (on holiday from their jobs as fitness trainers at the Club Med resort in the Caucasus for retired members of the Special Forces) to operate their tractors.

Thus would worship a Buk missile system thinking it was the symbol of their god of agriculture, rather than use it to shoot down aircraft.

Is your last post a send up of Andrei? Or are you just as dumb as the Moslems you send up?
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October 14, 2015 3:49pm
Andrei

To add to the above

When this occurred the so called “pro Russian rebels” had a Ukrainian army trapped in a “cauldron” and they needed to be extracted – this was a replay of a WW2 battle in the same area BTW

Also NATO was conducting “exercises” to the South in the Black Sea, the purpose of which was to monitor the goings on in this battle and no doubt help the Ukrainians get their men out

So NATO has everything. satellite reconnaissance, radar traces, radio transmissions etc and has had from day one and the Russians also do

If the narrative you believe was true we wouldn’t be relying on an English blogger for details – the American Government would be shouting them from the rooftops with hard evidence to back it up
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October 14, 2015 3:56pm
SPC

The Ukrainian plane shot down in July was at such a height that at first Russia was suspected of doing it as the shoulder held missiles used by rebels till then could not reach the height the plane was flying at.

Russia denied it leaving the only other option a Buk missile fired locally. Like the one taking down the passenger plane.

http://airheadsfly.com/2014/07/15/ukraine-latest-an-26-downing-more-advanced/

http://www.jacdec.de/2014/07/14/2014-07-14-ukraine-air-force-antonov-an-26-shot-down-in-eastern-ukraine/
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October 14, 2015 4:01pm
CrazyIvan

Just finished watching the Dem debate – Sanders sounded like a moonbat going on about the billionaire class, Clinton’s only real argument about why she was different to Obama was that she was a woman. Jim Webb seemed angry most of the time and Lincoln Chaffee went walkabout. Martin O’Malley had some good points but he seems to be more likely as a VP pick than presidential candidate.
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October 14, 2015 4:02pm
stephieboy

SPC, and of course why would Ukraine use BUKS and MANPADs fighting rebels who had no aircraft ?

Plus,

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/ukraine-rebels-stole-same-missiles-that-may-have-taken-1606774715/1606791724
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October 14, 2015 4:03pm
SPC

What really discredits democracy is petty politics.

Example – Clinton attacks Sanders as weak on gun control.

Fact, no matter how tough an elected President is on this issue they will be unable to impose change over Congress.

Thus making this an issue for candidate selection is a waste of time as to popular mandate for a Democrat President in office.

Clinton only did it to attack the support base for Sanders – those more liberal and inclined to support government action to realise a change they want than her own more centrist supporters. An attempt to discredit Sanders with his base to undermine activist time and money in support of his campaign. A resort to the birther movement tactic (claiming Obama was not a black AMERICAN that real ones could identify with) used in the 2007-2008 primaries.
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October 14, 2015 4:15pm
stephieboy

Andrei ,it’s indisputable that on Monday the 17th of July an An 26 was shot down flying at 21,000 well beyond the range of a shoulder launcher ,

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/ukraine-rebels-stole-same-missiles-that-may-have-taken-1606774715/1606791724

I see the Malaysian Government who were previously guarded in apportioning blame ( Commended by the Russian government ) have now come down supporting the the Dutch Safety Board’s final report findings ,
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October 14, 2015 4:16pm
howitis

Stars And Stripes (69 comments) says:
October 14th, 2015 at 10:17 am
Who is introducing red herrings, stonewalling at every opportunity and trying to block every meaningful attempt to get to the truth about MH17???.
… Now before all the USA haters start harping on about the USA shooting down passenger aircraft, yes absolutely the did but at least they owned up to it and paid compensation to the victims….

>>>>The inconvenient truth is that USA stalled in admitting liability for the Iran Airliner shot down by USS Vincennes warship while illegally in Iranian waters. I posted on this in KB last week some basic facts. You can check independently if you like. USA never admitted liability for shooting down the Iranian plane.

..>>US never really took responsibility for the killing of 290 people on Iran Air Flight 655 on July 3, 1988, which was shot down by USS Vincennes on the Bandar Abbas-Dubai route.
Three years after the incident, Admiral William Crowe admitted on ABC Nightline that the Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters at the time of the shoot-down. This directly contradicted the official Navy claims of the previous years. Deny deny deny.
They fought admitting liability for years until February 1996 when the United States under Bill Clinton agreed to pay Iran and victims of Flight 655 US$61.8 million in compensation ($300,000 per wage-earning victim, $150,000 per non-wage-earner) for the 248 Iranians killed in the shoot-down. This was an agreed settlement to discontinue a case brought by Iran in 1989 against the U.S. in the International Court of Justice.
The payment of compensation was explicitly characterized as being on an “ex gratia” basis, and…… the U.S. denied having any responsibility or liability for the incident.

Gaddafi was demonised over the Pan Am Lockerbie bombing but bear in mind US had recently shot down the Iran passenger jet while illegally in Iranian waters and were not owning up to it.
To show the imbalance US paid Iran USD 61 million (USD300k per working person; 150k non working person ) for Iran flight 655 whereas Libya paid USD8+ million for each person on the Lockerbie plane. About TWO Billion US dollars.<<< At least start with facts before you get into the emotional stuff of how you or Fox news want to see the world.

I have compassion for the innocent passengers on the Iran airliner in 1988 and the passengers on the Pan Am Flight 103 later that year.
Telling lies about it dishonours their memories.
I have also spent more than a total of one year in the USA on multiple visits including being there on Sept 11, 2001 so am not anti-US, just doggedly keen on sticking to facts.
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October 14, 2015 4:24pm
Manolo

The crook’s minion warns the clown: https://www.yahoo.com/politics/podesta-biden-needs-to-make-up-his-mind-222447667.html

In a brief conversation with Yahoo News on Tuesday, Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign chairman John Podesta said Vice President Joe Biden “needs to make up his mind about whether he wants to run or not.”

Trump tweets on the debate: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump
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October 14, 2015 4:25pm
Fletch

One for James Bond fans. This is really weird. I found it on the internet last night. Way back when Sean Connery was 007, an Italian producer tried to cash in on the spy movie trend and made his own movie. So, anyway, the movie had many Bond alumni slumming it in this production, including – Bernard Lee (Q) and Lois Maxwell (Miss Moneypenny), together with Anthony Dawson (Professor Dent in Dr No) and Adolfo Celi (Largo in Thunderball) and Daniele Bianchi (Tatiana in From Russia with Love).

The main protagonist was played by Sean Connery’s brother Neil Connery – who really wasn’t an actor, and all his lines were overdubbed. Weird huh? Anyway, the whole movie is online.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryrTxYyJb6k
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October 14, 2015 4:35pm
alloytoo

@Kimbo

Thanks Kimbo.

Penny, The Tribe (the 98.8%) have spoken.

You’re fired!
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October 14, 2015 5:04pm
Reid

Some good questions:

https://www.rt.com/news/318452-mh17-dutch-probe-questions/

and…

Leader of the Islamic State Abu Bakr al-Bagdadi was injured in Iraqi Army’s airstrike. Currently he is in a hospital, a local source confirmed to Sputnik Monday.

http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151012/1028396997/baghdadi-injired-hospital.html

But naturally, the US won’t be bombing that hospital (for an hour and a half), will they.

and…

The Islamic State (ISIL) has called on Muslims worldwide to launch jihad against Russian and US citizens.

http://sputniknews.com/world/20151013/1028478312/isil-jihad-russia-us.html

Yet strangely, it hasn’t yet declared jihad on Israeli citizens. How mysterious. You’d think to a “Muslim” terrorist organisation, that’d be the top of the list, wouldn’t you.
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October 14, 2015 5:32pm
Padriv Ustoev

@stephieboy

Well there we have it ladies and gentlemen.

Just because a barely literate peasant posted some links from the internet. We now know for sure who shot down the airliner.
Mind you, he did this with know knowledge of the language used in the region, no access to regional alternative media and only using English speaking sources, that could not possibly have an agenda.

Fucking bra-vo. Lets all stand up and give Stephie a slow clap. He’s solved it from his armchair here in NZ. Better listen to him, and dare not have a different opinion.
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October 14, 2015 5:44pm
kowtow

“…..as observered many anti feminist and misogynists like you are more in harmony with Shatia…..”

Shatia ?

Is that something wogs do when they can’t get to the shitter?
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October 14, 2015 5:45pm
Griff

no kowtow its what happens to your god wine and wafers after you have eaten them .
Do you worship the turds you shit out that have your god in them ?
Just asking.
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October 14, 2015 5:53pm
nasska

Holy crap Batman! 🙂
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October 14, 2015 5:55pm
Reid

that could not possibly have an agenda…

That’s the issue with many here Padriv. They hallucinate none of the Western sources could possibly have an agenda, because if they did, then (in their hallucination), someone in “the free press” would know and one of them would have talked by now. Ergo, it couldn’t be true.

Whereas, in every single non-Western source or Western sources that aren’t pro-West, they are ALL guided by black hands, simple puppets, pumping out propaganda so simplistic it’s as transparent as 1950’s Soviet-era lies from Pravda.

Laughable isn’t it, that people could be so unsophisticated.

But that’s truly what they think.

As you will appreciate, not all we Westerners are like that, but most of them are.

Good old Travistock.
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October 14, 2015 5:59pm
ex-golfer

When will Family First learn to STFU?
Last week they gave Boobs on Bikes free publicity, now they are giving this book the cheapest publicity available too.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/73017920/into-the-river-ban-lifted-by-film-and-literature-board
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October 14, 2015 6:04pm
SPC

reid, are you calling for Russia and America to bomb hospitals if they have IS members receiving care?

IS is a group fighting for Islamist rule over Moslems, and it fights those fighting it.

Has Syria called on Israel to join it, Hezbollah, Iran and Russia in fighting terrorists in Syria?
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October 14, 2015 6:10pm
Reid

A bit of history. Question: How come the Libor scandal which was way, way bigger than VW, wasn’t hyped even a fraction as much by the global media? How come? Why? Could it be the media is rigged? Of course not. BTW, it’s not just Libor that was rigged, it was much, much, much more. But you never heard about, did you. But you hear about VW don’t you. That’s not going away anytime soon, is it. No. Why the contrast, asks the enquiring mind…

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/everything-is-rigged-the-biggest-financial-scandal-yet-20130425
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October 14, 2015 6:11pm
Reid

reid, are you calling for Russia and America to bomb hospitals if they have IS members receiving care?

No of course not SPC, what kind of idiot would hallucinate I’m advocating an evil thing like that?

IS is a group fighting for Islamist rule over Moslems, and it fights those fighting it.

ISIS is a mercenary army created and supplied – monetarily and logistically – and trained by someone. And who might that someone be? Factual input to that question: The only countries so far who have benefited from ISIS operations are the West – specifically, the UKUSA and Israel.

Has Syria called on Israel to join it, Hezbollah, Iran and Russia in fighting terrorists in Syria?

I don’t know SGA. What’s the answer?
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October 14, 2015 6:13pm
stephieboy

Reid, a response to RT’s four questions ,

Why did RT and the Kremlin that controls and censors it sought to advance the theory that an Ukraine Su 25 could of intercepted M17 ? ,

https://www.rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/,

based on this kind of faked satellite imagery widely promoted by Russian State Television,

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2014/11/14/russian-state-television-shares-fake-images-of-mh17-being-attacked/

Why did this journalist Sara Firth resign from RT when she saw how it was obviously manufacturing , distorting data and information in total disregard for the facts about the downing of M17 ?,

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/russia-today-correspondent-resigns-over-coverage-of-ukranian#.tc4pLLD2p2
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October 14, 2015 6:16pm
Reid

Last week they gave Boobs on Bikes free publicity, now they are giving this book the cheapest publicity available too.

Yeah but they’re an advocacy group e-g.

That’s what they do.

What else are they going to or should do, if not that?

Reid, a response to RT’s four questions…

See Padriv’s 5.44 stephie (and my 5.59 reply too – not that you will understand it).
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October 14, 2015 6:21pm
nasska

….”What else are they going to or should do, if not that?”….

Disband!
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October 14, 2015 6:23pm
SPC

reid, Turkey and Saudi Arabia are the nations who want a Sunni identity dominated military power between Iran and Lebanon.

The Americans installed a Shia majority citizen democratic government in Iraq.
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October 14, 2015 6:24pm
stephieboy

Further rebuttal of RT’s four questions .The Buk Missile Launcher in Rebel controlled territory .In depth analysis :

This report can be downloaded as a PDF here.
Auf Deutsch herunterladen.
Данный отчет также доступен на русском языке.

Introduction

“This report summarizes the open source investigations into the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17) on July 17, 2014 in Ukraine. It draws on the work of Bellingcat and others who used open source information to uncover facts about the events that took place on July 17 and the origin of the Buk missile launcher that downed MH17.
The Buk Missile Launcher
After the downing of MH17 on July 17, a number of photographs and videos were shared online claiming to show the movements of a Buk missile launcher through separatist-controlled territory. It was possible to confirm the location where each image was recorded and discover additional information that further evidenced when and where the Buk missile launcher was on July 17. The following is an approximate timeline of where the Buk was and when:

• 10:45 am: Departed Donetsk eastbound along H21
• 11:00 am – 12:00 pm: Passed Zuhres and Shakhtersk en route to Torez along H21
• 12:00 pm – 12:45 pm: Entered and then passed through Torez (eastbound)
• 1:00 pm: Entered Snizhne
• 1:30 pm – 2:30 pm: Buk was unloaded from the Volvo low-loader truck in Snizhne; left the city (southbound)
• 4:20 pm: MH17 shot down

Before the first reports and images of the Buk missile launcher were recorded in Donetsk, communications intercepted by the Ukrainian Security Services (SBU) provided information on the earlier movements of the Buk missile launcher. Intercepts include separatists discussing the arrival of the Buk,[1] and references to a location inside Donetsk known as the “Motel.”[2] The Motel, located in the east of Donetsk and used by separatist forces as a base, is close to locations described in social media postings by Donetsk locals who reported sightings of a Buk missile launcher being transported through the city. These sightings are also close to the location where two images showing a Buk missile launcher being transported on the back of a red low-loader were taken, later published by Paris Match[3] and Bellingcat.[4]…”

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/10/08/mh17-the-open-source-evidence/
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October 14, 2015 6:25pm
Reid

Disband!

I quite like having a group that advocates traditional family values nasska. Someone should. Shouldn’t they? Or have you turned into a progressive in your old age, running the opposite of Churchill’s recommended evolution? 🙂

The Americans installed a Shia majority citizen democratic government in Iraq.

They certainly did SPC, and what a tremendous resounding success that has been, in every single way.
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October 14, 2015 6:28pm
Stars And Stripes

Yes Russia the beaming democracy it is with it’s vibrant free press can always be relied on to give accurate honest information to the masses right.
They are just continuing the proud traditions learnt from years of Soviet propaganda production because they always know there will be fools out there who will believe it regardless of how crude it is as conspiracy theories and the West is to blame for everything mentality is strong in some people.
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October 14, 2015 6:32pm
Padriv Ustoev

@stephie

Two can play your armchair idiot game.

I debunk one of you sources with another source from the internet.

Your move infidel.

https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Bellingcat
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October 14, 2015 6:32pm
nasska

I’ve always been a social liberal Reid. As an atheist I look at life as one suck of the sav & I bitterly resent religioconservatives dictating the way I should live it. I don’t however, expect anyone else to pay for what I do & that brings out the conservative in me.

Few have expressed it better than JMS @ 9.23am today:

…..”Socialists want your property to belong to the state, conservatives want your body to belong to the state”…..
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October 14, 2015 6:35pm
stephieboy

This is interesting from the Russian UN ambassador shortly after the downing of M17

“Vitaly Churkin, Russia’s ambassador to the United Nations, was asked Monday about different intercepted recordings, purportedly of pro-Russian rebels talking about shooting down a plane. Churkin suggested that if they did, it was an accident.

“According to them, the people from the east were saying that they shot down a military jet,” he said. “If they think they shot down a military jet, it was confusion. If it was confusion, it was not an act of terrorism.”

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/

I would think that Putin and the Kremlin would of leaned heavily on him to shut up and retract !
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October 14, 2015 6:42pm
SPC

reid, a little deep politics – and more real than other accounts, such as your own.

Turkey and Saudi Arabia are the nations who want a Sunni identity dominated military power between Iran and Lebanon and they felt threatened after the Americans installed a Shia majority citizen democratic government in Iraq.

So they used western support for democratic change in Syria to assist the rise of Sunni Islamists – and they had no concern with flow of weapons to IS – because they were fighting the Shia regime in Iraq.

The real question is whether the PNAC team foresaw regime change in Iraq as leading to the rise of identity power plays in the region – this very Shia-Sunni divide, that the Americans pose as neutral in, signing an agreement with Teheran supporting rebels in Syria while opposing IS.

Note Obama opposed the PNAC plan for Iraq and is operating the current neutral US policy on the Sunni-Shia divide.

Think PNAC snowball and then a ripple in a pond.
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October 14, 2015 6:47pm
stephieboy

Padriv Ustoev ,

Wiki Spooks is heavily into conspiracy theory including the Israeli did 9/11 and of course Holocaust denial . It is heavily anti jewish and I would think rather Pro Putin too so I would not put that much weight on it’s tediously predictable comments about belingcat ,

bhttps://wikispooks.com/wiki/Category:The_Holocausteing cat ,
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October 14, 2015 6:51pm
Reid

As an atheist I look at life as one suck of the sav & I bitterly resent religioconservatives dictating the way I should live it.

I guess you could pigeonhole me as a “religioconservative” although I don’t think myself as such, but if I am thought of by others as that, so be it.

I guess the distinction between me and most is that I don’t believe in cuddling bad behaviour. Not because I condemn someone for it, but because I know it’s bad for the person. Not on a physical level, but on a spiritual level.

We, as previously explained here many times, are not physical beings with a spiritual component, we are spiritual beings possessed with a physical interface – our body, through which we interact with the world. And through which the world in turn feeds into our spiritual being – what we call “our mind.”

Our life, in other words, is not physical, it’s spiritual.

Think about it.

All of our growth in life occurs mentally. The physical is nothing, meaningless.

Yet there’s a twist.

There always is.

The twist being, the physical is what most of us spend 99-100% of our time becoming proficient in.

Disregarding the spiritual growth, which is the whole point of our being here in the first place.

And when you get rare groups like Family First who do emphasise that spiritual component, I listen. I may not support them, many of them are mistaken, but I listen, because of the comparitive rarity of having some social advocacy operating on the spiritual plane.

They may not always be right, but so what, who ever is? But unlike some, I don’t condemn the message simply because it comes from Family First.
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October 14, 2015 6:55pm
Griff

Reid the day you would have a point is the day you can prove that belief in god makes you a better person.
It doesn’t.
liberals get blamed for a lot by conservonutters on this blog.
Who in the same post will attack another sect who believes in their god.
A fundamental Muslims belief system is far closer to Christianity than that of an liberal atheist.
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October 14, 2015 7:00pm
SPC

Who is the mean bastard who downticked reid for simply saying what his faith is and how it impacts on his social conservative position?

Hardly the action of modern liberal tolerant of diversity in a multi-cultural multi-faith society. You should be shamed and given re-education.
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October 14, 2015 7:03pm
Manolo

The UK is digging its own grave.

The incredible madness of the ~~refugee~~ illegal immigrant crisis: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3271045/Pictured-50-000-luxury-stretch-Hummer-used-ferry-asylum-seekers-London-Manchester-village-complained-deluged.html

A £50,000 stretch limo was hired for £3,000 to ferry asylum seekers from London to Manchester, it was claimed yesterday.

The 16-seat Hummer took seven Africans from the village hotel they had been staying in to their new homes. The chauffeur told astonished locals that the Home Office was picking up the tab.

Residents in Longford, near Heathrow, say they are ‘overwhelmed’ with migrants who have turned their village into a transit camp.
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October 14, 2015 7:06pm
nasska

We’re on different planets with this one Reid. I totally deny the existence of the supernatural or spiritual…..belief in anything ethereal is not part of my psyche.

Family First doesn’t concern me. It’s a fringe group of nutters pushing a message that no longer connects with any other than a dwindling pool of fellow nuts. It’s just that when any organisation does nothing other than promote what it holds to be evil then it has outlived its usefulness to anything or anyone.

But whatever floats McCoskrie’s boat. 🙂
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October 14, 2015 7:07pm
Reid

belief in anything ethereal is not part of my psyche.

Farmers rarely do (I’m closely related to many).

I wonder why?
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October 14, 2015 7:10pm
Manolo

Your move infidel.

@Iman Padriv: Far from it! stephieboy is not an infidel but a faithful follower of the prophet, a guilt-ridden man who respects the Kuran above all and who prays five times a day towards the holy city of Mecca. In short, a true soldier of Islam.

Allahu akbar.
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October 14, 2015 7:11pm
mikenmild

Well, if you read it in the Daily Fail, Manolo, I suppose it must be true…
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October 14, 2015 7:11pm
SPC

Manolo, padriv has been to Mecca (albeit as an FSB operative under cover) and stoned an impersonator of the devil (a rock), a live western liberal would be stoned to death at Mecca, if they dare to go there.
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October 14, 2015 7:21pm
SGA

Reid at 7:10 pm

“belief in anything ethereal is not part of my psyche.”
Farmers rarely do (I’m closely related to many).
I wonder why?

They’ve learnt the value of praying for rain? 🙂
(tongue-in-cheek, but with a little metaphorical value)
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October 14, 2015 7:34pm
mikenmild

Perhaps farmers are just a little bit closer to the realities of life in death. Although, most farmers throughout history have undoubtedly held superstitious beliefs.
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October 14, 2015 7:39pm
aquataur

A Stuff article I thoroughly agree with

I have a daughter with a long term illness (which she has had for the past 16 years) who is required to go and visit WINZ every 4 weeks to meet with a case manager, provide a doctor’s certificate, etc and to show how she is planning to return to work (joke with an illness that has a 40%+ mortality rate)

What a waste of time for all concerned – WINZ staff, my daughter, the form filling, the cost to the state of a doctor’s certificate, etc

Beauracracy or PC gone mad – why can’t they accept that there are long term illnesses with long term recovery and forget this nonsense of everyone being a job seeker

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/73015502/cancer-battler-disappointed-by-narrow-government-benefit-system
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October 14, 2015 7:41pm
Reid

SPC thank you for, at last, an intelligent response.

Turkey and Saudi Arabia are the nations who want a Sunni identity dominated military power between Iran and Lebanon and they felt threatened after the Americans installed a Shia majority citizen democratic government in Iraq.

I don’t buy that. In my view, the US invasion of Iraq is about:

a) getting rid of Israel’s public enemy #2: Iraq
b) by (eventually) splitting it into three: Sunni, Shia, Kurd
c) while Israel takes its oil, via its friendship with the Kurds, whose homelands sit over the major fields, and whom the Israelis have been cuddling up to since 2003.

So they used western support for democratic change in Syria to assist the rise of Sunni Islamists – and they had no concern with flow of weapons to IS – because they were fighting the Shia regime in Iraq.

Turkey is a long-time Western satrap. It’s been used as a base for a very long time and not just for the current Syrian op. Syria is an operation to remove Israel’s public enemy #1: Iran by taking out its last major ME ally and eventually installing someone in Iran who finally but fucking finally, co-operates with the Western (UKUSA+Israel) agenda.

The real question is whether the PNAC team foresaw regime change in Iraq as leading to the rise of identity power plays in the region – this very Shia-Sunni divide, that the Americans pose as neutral in, signing an agreement with Teheran supporting rebels in Syria while opposing IS.

The PNAC team are a bunch of incompetent, arrogant, evil fucks who have killed millions not just through incompetence but through their evil, wicked designs. They will go to hell. They are evil. If I believed in the death penalty, I would sentence them to it. But instead, I would confiscate their assets, impoverish their hatchlings, and make sure they died behind bars.

The interesting thing in this is that I believe Obama is a Muslim. I don’t care if you buy that or not, it explains his behaviour. He has used his Office to defy Israel’s policy of disallowing the US to engage with Iran and he is the first POTUS to have done that since Israel killed JFK for doing the same thing.

One interesting thing is the meme in the media that just because Iran might have a nuke this means it will use it. Why on Earth would it, given Israel has 300+ to use against it, if it does?

That’s a meme not reality but I would not be at all surprised to see a nuke or a dirty nuke detonated in a US metro and an Iranian passport fluttering down amongst the debris.

For the benefit of the idiots out there, I don’t want that to happen, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it does.
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October 14, 2015 7:42pm
Jack5

New Zealand moves to trademark the name “manuka honey” has interesting ramifications for Maori claims.

The UMF Honey Association which is driving the trademark move concedes the move may have Waitangi Treaty claim ramifications.

Under Wai 262, a Waitangi Treaty claim lodged in 1991, representatives from six iwi sought to protect Maori culture, identity and traditional knowledge in NZ law. This included a claim on flora and fauna that were significant to Maori tradition and culture.

It’s interesting that there was no manuka honey in NZ until white settlers introduced honey bees. Also, the manuka plant is native to south-east Australia as well as to NZ. Aussies call it tea tree or jelly bush.

If Maori successfully claim any sort of rights over manuka honey, that will be the step that establishes beyond doubt that the whole treaty process is a vast rort.

http://agrihq.co.nz/article/maori-support-sweetens-pot?p=1
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October 14, 2015 7:45pm
Viking2

‘Kids round here have nothing to do’ – Iwi leader hits out after boy, 12, tried to rob dairy with gun.

An iwi leader says the armed robbery of a Kaitaia dairy on Sunday by two teenagers was a direct result of the “limited windows of opportunity” young people have in the Far North.

North Road Dairy owner Dipika Patel was in the store when an armed 12-year-old boy, who police believe was on methamphetamine, entered demanding money at 8.35pm on Sunday.

=========================================================

BUT, and there is always an excuse isn’t there.

But Te Rarawa iwi leader Haami Piripi told Newstalk ZB, while the images were “shocking”, people shouldn’t be too quick to demonise the teenagers.

He said it was an “economic phenomenon” that was being seen around the world and stemmed from a lack of basic needs such as healthcare, education and housing.

“It’s terrible, it’s shocking. The thing is that they are still children…young kids round here have virtually nothing to do, just walk up and down the street. It’s a really hard hole to climb out of.

“The chances are that this is a continuing cycle. It’s a really, really sad phenomenon.”
====================================

No sign that the “IWI LEADER” is actually a leader and is inspired to do anything about the problem.
He ain’t a leader at all. More likely has the title to allow him to suck the teat.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11528781
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October 14, 2015 7:48pm
stephieboy

Reid, just to prick your bubble of Conspiracy based illusions about the ME, Iraq , Syria and ISIS etc,

Israel turns to Kurds for three-quarters of its oil supplies

“Israel has imported as much as three-quarters of its oil from Iraq’s semi-autonomous Kurdish north in recent months, providing a vital source of funds to the cash-strapped region as it fights militants of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isis).

The sales are a sign of Iraqi Kurdistan’s growing assertiveness and the further fraying of ties between Erbil and Baghdad, which has long harboured fears that the Kurds’ ultimate objective is full-scale independence from Iraq…”

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/150f00cc-472c-11e5-af2f-4d6e0e5eda22.html#axzz3oWSAKXSl
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October 14, 2015 7:54pm
SPC

reid, if the USA wanted an Iraq separated into 3 parts, they would have established a federal system. And this would have prevented IS from forming out of al Qaeda in Iraq. As to oil in Kurdish Iraq, the American policy is to oppose them selling any.

Re Obama, his world view is not old fashioned imperial but modern multi-lateral – that does not make him a Moslem but less centred on religious/national race divides – seeking to design global policy applicable to the current century/multi-cultural environment.

PS If Obama is standing up to Israel why does he not question Israel taking Iraqi Kurd oil?
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October 14, 2015 7:55pm
mikenmild

The interesting thing in this is that I believe Obama is a Muslim. I don’t care if you buy that or not, it explains his behaviour. He has used his Office to defy Israel’s policy of disallowing the US to engage with Iran and he is the first POTUS to have done that since Israel killed JFK for doing the same thing.

Tinfoil hat fitting comfortably this evening?
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October 14, 2015 8:00pm
stephieboy

BTW, let me add that the majority of Kurds are Sunni !
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October 14, 2015 8:00pm
SPC

I’ll answer my own question – the oil sales are tolerated as part of Kurds funding their independent capacity to engage IS on behalf of Iraq. Until Iraq restores sovereignty to the Syrian border.

It would be interesting to note how many conduits there are to this supply of oil and what route it takes.

and reid, Johnson, Nixon, Ford and Carter and Reagan had dealings with Iran.
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October 14, 2015 8:04pm
Reid

reid, if the USA wanted an Iraq separated into 3 parts, they would have established a federal system.

It can’t be that obvious SPC. Lest the sheeple awake before it’s already become a reality.

Re Obama, his world view is not old fashioned imperial but modern multi-lateral – that does not make him a Moslem

I didn’t tell you why I thought he was a Muslim so I suggest you don’t try to guess what evidence I know on that.

If Obama is standing up to Israel why does he not question Israel taking Iraqi Kurd oil?

Because just because he’s a Muslim doesn’t mean he’s doing all this on his own and he always gets his own way and it doesn’t mean his Muslim agenda is his only objective. It explains his actions to date, that’s all.

I don’t claim to understand the inner workings of any complex polity and when you think of the thousands of conflicting forces and the intel we never ever see operating, that’s understandable, I hope. So I’m forced to interpolate from their actions, like everyone else not involved also is. But the interpolation holds. Why else would a US Pres do what he’s done? What’s his calculation, if he’s not a Muslim?

Johnson, Nixon, Ford and Carter and Reagan had dealings with Iran.

Yeah but none of them dealt with Iran nukes, did they.

Not that Iran has nukes.

But the UKUSA+Israel media claim this opens the door, which it doesn’t, but that’s what they claim. (To frighten the sheeple.) Notwithstanding, something like as I said above, will be manufactured, with an Iranian passport fluttering down. For the sheeple.
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October 14, 2015 8:15pm
stephieboy

Reid,
”
I don’t claim to understand the inner workings of any complex polity and when you think of the thousands of conflicting forces and the intel we never ever see operating, that’s understandable,..”

I’ll say ! Your interpolation does not hold largely because your bogged down in the quagmire of black and white thinking conspiracy theory which leads you e.g to claim Obama is a Muslim . Sunni or Shia ?

Sheesh !

Israel purportedly involved in the creation and fiunding of ISIS and then imports the bulk of it’s oil from those who are fighting ISIS !

Sheesh !
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October 14, 2015 8:28pm
Reid

stephie: Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt.
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October 14, 2015 8:33pm
SPC

reid, did Kennedy deal with Iran on nukes and get removed by the lone gunman because of it – so all the other theories related to his position on money and Vietnam are wrong.
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October 14, 2015 8:34pm
Tauhei Notts

That post at 7.48 p.m..
I have some sympathy for Mr Patel.
Business brokers in Hyderabad or Mumbai would have told him what a great place Kaitaia is. And it is so safe.
Well read New Zealanders know that the far north is a shithole.
It has been that way for the past 30 years, possibly longer.
Cigarettes are obviously bad for one’s health, but they are a damned sight safer for you than running a corner dairy in the far north.
Until the above cold hard facts are widely published some new New Zealanders will get sucked into business in the far north. But instead of cold hard facts, extensive coverage will be given to apologists for the phuckwits, who are so prolific, north of Hikurangi.
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October 14, 2015 8:48pm
Reid

did Kennedy deal with Iran on nukes and get removed by the lone gunman because of it

There’s good evidence Kennedy put the bite on Israel to come clean to the world over Dimona and that’s why they killed him SPC.

That’s why I said Obama is the first POTUS since him to defy Israel.

so all the other theories related to his position on money and Vietnam are wrong

Who knows SPC. Maybe it’s a combination of all of them. But do you want to talk about JFK or Obama and his Iran policy?

OTY. I can talk about either. I don’t care. But which?
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October 14, 2015 8:54pm
AgentBallSack

Obama’s legacy will be that he was the first Black President.
That’s about it. Maybe later history will suggest that his hands were tied by the inability of Congress to pass laws that change America for the better.
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October 14, 2015 9:10pm
Reid

Obama’s legacy will be that he was the first Black President.

Obama’s legacy will be that he’s a failed POTUS, and he “happened” to be black.

Just like the West is being setup for a Muslim-Christian conflict, one of the major axes of the internal US destruction program is a general White-Black civil war.

I know most don’t see it like that, but that’s the positioning.

That’s why Cosby is being pilloried at present. Not because what he did is false, but they all do it. Most of them no half as bad as his accusations are.

To destroy their role models.

So they think: there’s nothing left.

I know most don’t see it.

But that’s what they’re doing.

Nothing in the above should be taken as defense for or support of Cosby. He’s as guilty as sin, but he’s if anything, less guilty than the UK elite are in the child abuse accusations which are in the process of being covered up by our very own judge – you watch.

I’m just shining some sunlight on it. File it away and see what happens. Some people will be sacrificed. Most of them won’t be touched. It’s going to be those who weren’t, who are the most interesting. And FYI, some of those who will be, are the most well known names in the world.
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October 14, 2015 9:23pm
stephieboy

Reid,

“Maybe the most dangerous thing about the “Illuminati” isn’t that such a master cabal has ever existed, but that some people believe it should and wreak havoc under the delusion they run the world.”

― Richard B. Spence,

“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple. Sense doesn’t come into it. People are more scared of how complicated shit actually is than they ever are about whatever’s supposed to be behind the conspiracy.”

― William Gibson
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October 14, 2015 9:43pm
AgentBallSack

stephieboy, even worse if both occur simultaneously.

— BallSack
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October 14, 2015 9:46pm
Reid

ABS and stephie:

What if we’re correct, and you are wrong?

Our worldview both explains reality past and present and predicts it. Your’s leaves you in a state of constant surprise at the next atrocity|calamity|”natural” disaster.

Therefore…

???
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October 14, 2015 10:10pm
Fletch

Has there ever ben a bigger disappointment than Barack Hussein Obama? Elected with such fanfare. He was the one who was going to change everything. He said himself when he was elected –

I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick and good jobs to the jobless; this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal; this was the moment when we ended a war and secured our nation and restored our image as the last, best hope on Earth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0tuAJkbUWU

And what is his track record on that? Care for the sick – Obamacare has made health insurance the most expensive it has ever been. People cannot afford the double and triple costs of premiums. And Jobs? Forget it. There are more people on foodstamps now than when he took office, and a greater percentage of black people out of work. Rather than “ending a war” he lost the war in Iraq that had already been won by pulling out completely and enabling the rise of ISIS. Relations with Russia are much worse than they’ve been in decades. America’s standing in the world has fallen.

I predict that in the future, Obama’s name will be a curse word. His policies have brought America low and threatened Western security and democracy. At every opportunity, he has supported everything Islamic and been against Judeo-Christian beliefs. He claims to be Christian but his actions show otherwise. He supports abortion, gay marriage, and Iran, is against Israel. He claims that climate change is the biggest threat to mankind though he has paved the way for Iran (a country that opened admits hatred for the U.S and its allies) to have the Bomb.

And after all this, he told Steve Kroft the other day in an interview that he thinks he’d win again if he was able to run for office.
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October 14, 2015 10:23pm
AgentBallSack

Reid, I am still young(ish) and observing. I can afford to be wrong now and then. It’s no great shakes to be wrong, and to realise that you are. Repeating the mistake of being wrong continually is more of a sin.
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October 14, 2015 10:49pm
Inandout

Dirty stinking invaders of Germany don’t change their shit hole habits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqXmpPMSDmU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2QcffxADHY

How long before Germans strike back…tick tick?
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October 14, 2015 10:59pm
SPC

fletch,

Healthcare cost rises year by year. And yes no one can afford a doubling or tripling of premiums – but that is not the same as it actually happening. And it is a form of lie to infer that is what is happening.

Comparing the number on welfare in the USA in 2008 to now (GFC and all) is like comparing our budget surplus of that year with National’s struggle to return to surplus since.

If the USA had to keep an army in Iraq to prevent the rise of IS then regime change was just dumb in the first place – and Obama opposed that dumb PNAC move.

Placing a test of good relations with Russia, as the criteria for the security of western democracy, sounds like the appeasement surrender monkey language of Chamberlain.

I still find it hard to get my head around how any Catholic can get their worldview shaped by WASP Republican USA – especially when the crux of their end time in our generation heresy is that the role of the USA is sacrificial service to the interest of Zionist Israel.

Is it some sort of Christian guilt, that they think their God can only be pleased by service to Jewish nationalism?

I don’t want to go full blown reid here, but baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
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October 14, 2015 11:01pm
Viking2

The Beginning of the end of socialism in NZ.

Another Savage memorial to socialism is about to bite the dust.
Hopefully more will follow.

Perhaps it will take it’s owner as well.

Now that will save the taxpayer lots of money.

They said ‘Get it down immediately’, so we fenced it off today … no-one will be able to go into the hazard zone, we’ll get that down in the next week or two.”
The 220-metre Radio New Zealand transmission mast at Titahi Bay, Porirua, is set for demolition, along with its 50m neighbour, after engineers discovered significant corrosion. A third tower would remain.

RNZ chief executive Paul Thompson said on Wednesday that the 50m tower was identified as the most at-risk in a report delivered on Monday.

Engineers recommended the 220m tower be demolished by next March, but RNZ would instead look to bring it down this year.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/73028367/rusting-titahi-bay-radio-masts-to-be-demolished-after-being-deemed-safety-risks
——————————————————
Wonder if we can find some more”engineers” who can write reports like that on Govt. Departments and things we taxpayers don’t need to own or do?

Must be a lot out there.
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October 15, 2015 6:31am
Manolo

A euphemism for lying through their teeth: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20151014/us–dem_2016-debate-fact_check-9882728f76.html

Hillary Clinton revised history in the Democratic debate when insisting she’s not a flip-flopper on a trade deal she promoted as secretary of state but turned against as a presidential candidate.

Bernie Sanders overstated the share of wealth being taken by the richest Americans, a subject that goes to the core of his campaign.
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October 15, 2015 7:02am
Viking2

https://www.facebook.com/crazygirlinc/photos/a.270483353146181.1073741828.270480973146419/417314001796448/?type=3
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October 15, 2015 5:37pm

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