General Debate 4 August 2015

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mikenmild

Yeah stephie, Reid is linking to another whacko website, quelle surprise. I think I’ll wait for some actual evidence before making up my mind.
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August 4, 2015 10:34pm
Manolo

Not there yet: http://www.nationaljournal.com/2016-elections/joe-biden-2016-presidential-run-senate-20150803
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August 5, 2015 6:53am
Manolo

Married to a deviant? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3180305/Trump-launches-attack-Huma-Abedin-deviant-husband-Anthony-Weiner-claims-pair-access-Clinton-s-secret-classified-emails.html

Trump told DailyMail.com during a wide-ranging interview in his New York City Office that ‘the person seeing her emails more than anybody else is Huma. And who’s Huma married to? The worst deviant in the United States of America, right? Weiner!’
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August 5, 2015 6:55am
EAD

All I can say is no surprises here – Alex Jones called out as a Zionist shill:

http://henrymakow.com/2015/07/alex-jones—zionist-shill-.html
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August 5, 2015 8:38am
mikenmild

Henry Makow versus Alex Jones. Who do you think is the bigger crank, EAD?
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August 5, 2015 8:43am
UglyTruth

mikenmild or Shawn Herles… Who do you think is the biggest liar?
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August 5, 2015 8:55am
mikenmild

Hi Ugly. I was asking you the other day: is there any pseudoscience, woo or conspiracy theory that you consider too far-fetched to be true?
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August 5, 2015 9:02am
Manolo

A true journalist like him is worth all TNVZ and TV3 put together: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/10-gop-candidates-will-be-trying-to-win-a-debate-chris-wallace-wants-to-make-that-tough-for-all-of-them/2015/08/03/ffd27cf2-eae8-4718-af4a-6c3c08cd1a33_story.html
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August 5, 2015 9:07am
UglyTruth

Hi Ugly. I was asking you the other day: is there any pseudoscience, woo or conspiracy theory that you consider too far-fetched to be true?

Why should I answer your question when you refuse to answer mine?

You asked your question immediately after I asked you about the CDC falsifying their report about the connection between the MMR vaccine and autism. This falsification is a matter of fact, and not a conspiracy theory as you implied. My question was in response to your denial of a causal relationship between the vaccine and autism.
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August 5, 2015 9:26am
mikenmild

There is no causal relationship between MMR and autism. That should be obvious by now.
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August 5, 2015 9:27am
UglyTruth

Again you have refused to answer my question. All you have done is to repeat your denial, knowing that the CDC falsified the relevant study. The only reasonable conclusion is that your denial is simply a lie.

Which brings me back to my original question: who is the worse liar, someone who lies for autism, or someone who lies against another religion by calling it a death cult when that description more accurately applies to his own religion?
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August 5, 2015 9:36am
mikenmild

Several large-cohort studies have completely refuted the idea that there could be a link between MMR and autism.
A good summary of the CDC brouhaha is here:
http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2014/09/mmr-cdc-and-brian-hooker-media-guide.html
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August 5, 2015 9:41am
UglyTruth

http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/07/breaking-news-congressman-posey-on-house-floor-cdc-authors-of-2004-mmr-paper-destroyed-documents.html

Mr. Speaker, I respectfully request the following excerpts from the statement written by Dr. Thompson be entered into record. Now quoting Dr. Thompson:

“My primary job duties while working in the Immunization Safety Branch from 2000 to ’06 were lead or co-lead three major vaccine safety studies—the MADDSP MMR Autism Cases Control study was being carried out in response to the Wakefield Lancet study that suggested an association between the MMR vaccine and an autism-like health outcome. There were several major concerns among scientists and consumer advocates outside the CDC in the fall of 2000 regarding the execution of the Verstraeten study.

One of the important goals that was determined up front in the spring of ’01 before any of these studies started, was to have all three protocols vetted outside the CDC prior to the start of the analyses so that consumer advocates could not claim that we were presenting analyses that presented our own goals and biases. We hypothesized that if we found statistically significant effects at either 18 or 36 month thresholds, we would conclude that vaccinating children early with MMR could lead to autism-like characteristics or features. We all met and finalized the study protocol and analysis plan. The goal was to not deviate from the analysis plan to avoid the debacle that occurred with the Verstraeten thimerosal study published in Pediatrics in ’03. At the September 5th meeting, we discussed in detail how to code race for both the sample and the birth certificate sample.

At the bottom of Table 7 it also shows that for the non-birth certificate sample, the adjusted race effect statistical significance was huge. All the authors and I met and decided sometime between August and September ’02 not to report any race effects for the paper. Sometime soon after the meeting, we decided to exclude reporting any race effects, the co-authors scheduled a meeting to destroy documents related to the study. The remaining four co-authors all met and brought a big garbage can into the meeting room and reviewed and went through all the hard copy documents that we had thought we should discard and put them in a huge garbage can.
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August 5, 2015 9:56am
Griff

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Age_of_Autism
Age of Autism (often abbreviated to AoA) is a site that hosts the blogs of the ableist leaders in the field of anti-vaccination crankery and has little to do with actual autism other than the claim that vaccines cause autism which they don’t. [1] Their bloggers include the likes of Mark Blaxill, David Kirby, J.B. Handley, and, of course, Jenny McCarthy. They also peddle “treatments” for autism produced by alternative medicine woo-meister Lee Silsby, which consist of vitamin supplements and other nature woo. Age of Autism, being the cesspool of the craziest of the anti-vaccine movement, has invoked several arguments horrible in both quality and in taste, which, of course, involves the typical PRATTs of the anti-vaccine movement that can probably fill the entire bingo card.

In a pathetic attempt at being reasonable, they proclaim themselves as “not anti-vaccine, just pro-safe vaccine” even though they have aimed their fear-mongering cannons at Gardasil[2] and the meningitis vaccine[3], which are irrelevant to autism.

Not surprisingly for a anti-vaccine crank website, Age of Autism views itself as a champion for the so-called “medical rights” including the “right” to refuse the vaccine because they think the misinformed parent can make a decision better than a professional government-sponsored medical organization. They draw depressingly awful analogies of vaccines to things like human trafficking, rape, and, of course, Hitler and Nazism. They also roll in conspiracy theories like Big Pharma and even think they are winning[4].

Bottom line, if not implied a hundred times here, they’re the to-go site for the lowest parts of the anti-vaccination movement.
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August 5, 2015 10:02am
UglyTruth

Hey shithead, there is no response to Thompson’s testimory from rationalwiki.
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August 5, 2015 10:05am
mikenmild

Just saw this on RationalWiki. It seems a good enough summary:

In August 2014, a CDC researcher, William Thompson published a statement claiming that a 2004 article omitted information that suggested some vaccinated African-American children were at higher risk of autism.[50] A study published by Brian S Hooker claimed to show evidence of the vaccine-autism link following re-analysis of the omitted data.[51] This claim has been comprehensively refuted[52] and Hooker’s paper was withdrawn from the journal Translational Neurodegeneration.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anti-vaccination_movement#Autism
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August 5, 2015 10:11am
UglyTruth

Just saw this on RationalWiki. It seems a good enough summary:

The only thing relevant is RW’s assertion that “This claim has been comprehensively refuted[52]”

Reference 52 leads back to harpocratesspeaks.com, which falsely states that as at September 8, 2014 “the CDC does not appear to have covered up anything”. In fact Thompson admitted on August 27 that the CDC has covered up the data showing the connection between the MMR vaccine and autism.

http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-william-w-thompson-ph-d-regarding-the-2004-article-examining-the-possibility-of-a-relationship-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/
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August 5, 2015 10:22am
mikenmild

No Ugly. Thompson claimed that the data had been omitted and that it showed a link between the vaccine and autism for some children. But there was no fraud, and the data did not show such a link anyway, which is why the paper asserting that it did was withdrawn.
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August 5, 2015 10:28am
Griff

Hey dolt……
Vaccination even it did cause autism is better than the certain death and disability that not vaccinating would bring.
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August 5, 2015 10:30am
stephieboy

Ugly Truth,

The conspiracy allegation that that the CDC attempted and conspired to cover up data linking autism with the MMR vaccine is pure fiction. The basel mess claim originators with the anti vaccine universe such as Natural news , Green Med info etc.

The players in this alleged conspiracy includes a Andrew Wakefield and a Dr Brian Hooker an engineer with no background in virology , biochemistry etc ) Also Dr William Thompson , the “fool “ in this alleged conspiracy. of CDC where he in fact contributed to a series of articles finding that there was indeed was no link between Autism and any vaccines He was invited by Hooker to make some random comments about his article that claimed to the contrary. This is where the plot thickens but my link below goes into the details of the claim by the anti vaccine network that CDC somehow contrived to stymie the “whistle blower “Thompson . Relevant is the fact that much of the ‘hub bub” revolves around Hooker’s contribution to the analysis of a small cohort of young African American males based on some one’s else research and reaching an opposite conclusion that MMR vaccines causes autism . His claim with the details of the alleged cover up are given more in depth analysis here ,

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/fictional-cdc-coverup-vaccines-autism-still-fictional/

and,

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/did-a-high-ranking-whistleblower-really-reveal-that-the-cdc-covered-up-proof-that-vaccines-cause-autism-in-african-american-boys/
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August 5, 2015 10:31am
UglyTruth

But there was no fraud

Fraud existed if injury resulted from the falsehood perpetuated by the CDC.

and the data did not show such a link anyway,

If the data did not show a link then why did the CDC bin it?
They fact that you refuse to answer this question paints you as a liar in your denial of harm, mikenmild.
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August 5, 2015 10:41am
UglyTruth

Hey dolt……
Vaccination even it did cause autism is better than the certain death and disability that not vaccinating would bring.

Do you have any actual data to support your position, or are you just letting RationalWiki do your thinking for you?
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August 5, 2015 10:43am
Manolo

Vaccination even it did cause autism is better than the certain death and disability that not vaccinating would bring.

Wise words from Griff, for a change.
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August 5, 2015 10:43am
UglyTruth

The conspiracy allegation that that the CDC attempted and conspired to cover up data linking autism with the MMR vaccine is pure fiction.

Again, fuck off you lying sack of shit stephieboy. Thompson admitted that in his 2014 press release and the admission was repeated in the US senate just recently.
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August 5, 2015 10:45am
Manolo

The shit is flying in the words exchanged by stephieboy and UT, both devout followers of the religion of peace and its paedophile prophet.
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August 5, 2015 10:47am
mikenmild

Interesting that you repeat the allegation of fraud, when in fact Thompson himself made no such allegation.

In any event:

From the facts that are known at this time, the CDC does not appear to have covered up anything. In 2004, the CDC conducted a study examined children with autism (cases) and those who don’t have autism (controls), then looked at the age of MMR vaccination to see if cases were more likely to have been immunized at a certain age than controls. While no clear association was discovered, they did notice that there was an odd finding that more cases than controls were vaccinated later than 24 months of age but before 36 months of age. To see if this apparent association was real, they gathered more information from state birth certificate records for all study subjects that had a Georgia birth certificate. This additional information allowed them to see if there might have been some other factor (e.g., birth weight, parents’ age, mother’s education level, etc.) that might have been responsible for the strange finding. Once the researchers controlled for these additional factors, the anomaly disappeared, meaning that there was no connection between MMR vaccination and autism. The published paper included the results of the birth certificate analysis by race and age at first MMR vaccination, but did not include a racial comparison from the larger group for age at first vaccination, because racial information was not available for all subjects, and that strange finding from the larger group was not reliable. Furthermore, as the subgroup analysis showed, that initial finding was wrong. In response to the noise from the anti-vaccine movement, the CDC released a statement in support of their original study.
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August 5, 2015 10:50am
UglyTruth

Interesting that you repeat the allegation of fraud, when in fact Thompson himself made no such allegation.

If injury (i.e. autism resulting from vaccination) occurred in the context of the CDC report being accepted as value then the coverup was a fraud.

If the data didn’t show that vaccination could cause autism, then there was no reason for the CDC to ammend the protocol and conceal relevant facts.

You’re simple repeating the lie that I refuted in my 10:22, mikenmild.
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August 5, 2015 10:56am
Ryan Sproull

Do you have any actual data to support your position, or are you just letting RationalWiki do your thinking for you?

Wait. UglyTruth, are you claiming that the MMR vaccine doesn’t prevent mumps, measles and rubella?

Or are you claiming that those diseases don’t kill children?
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August 5, 2015 11:01am
UglyTruth

No to both, I’m asking if Griff has any numbers to support his benefit vs harm analysis.
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August 5, 2015 11:03am
mikenmild

You don’t appear to have read the explanation given at 10.50, Ugly.

Can I suggest one thing in the interests of civilised debate? Please don’t accuse commenters of ‘lying’ unless you can be sure that what they say is both untrue and known by the commenter to be untrue.
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August 5, 2015 11:06am
UglyTruth

Do you have a point to make, or are you just lying again?
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August 5, 2015 11:07am
Ryan Sproull

No to both, I’m asking if Griff has any numbers to support his benefit vs harm analysis.

Well, that shouldn’t be too hard. What do you believe is the rate of MMR vaccines causing autism? How many cases caused per thousand inoculated?
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August 5, 2015 11:08am
tom hunter

I see the makings of a new start-up company:

Mikenmild, Griff and Sproull

The cheapest mental health therapists in New Zealand.!

Online Service now!

The name has a nice ring to it. 🙂
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August 5, 2015 11:20am
mikenmild

Tut, tut Ugly, I asked you nicely to stop calling people liars.

Now have we discussed the vaccine-autism hooha enough? I’m not changing my mind and I’m pretty sure you’re not changing yours. What I was really interested, in this session (wink, wink, tom), was to find out whether there was any piece of woo, pseudoscience or conspiracy theory that you find implausible.
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August 5, 2015 11:24am
stephieboy

Ugly Truth, the factual evidence that William Thompson was actually whistleblowing a cover up within CDC ???

tom hunter , oh no not another MMR causes autism CTer ??
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August 5, 2015 11:25am
UglyTruth

Well, that shouldn’t be too hard. What do you believe is the rate of MMR vaccines causing autism? How many cases caused per thousand inoculated?

Why are you asking me? I didn’t make the assertion, Griff did.
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August 5, 2015 11:28am
UglyTruth

Ugly Truth, the factual evidence that William Thompson was actually whistleblowing a cover up within CDC ???

My 9:56
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August 5, 2015 11:30am
UglyTruth

Tut, tut Ugly, I asked you nicely to stop calling people liars.

Did you seriously believe that would be effective after you had repeatedly been caught out lying?
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August 5, 2015 11:31am
mikenmild

Ugly, as I pointed out, asserting something with which you happen to disagree does not constitute lying. I really, really don’t believe that you could point to a comment that I have made and show that it was a deliberate lie. Like all of us, I might not always be right, but I do believe that I try to be honest. Disclaimer: Obvious sarcasm could be an exception to this.
As a quick example, I believe that you think I am lying. You are mistaken, but not making a deliberate falsehood.

Now, can we talk about your other beliefs?
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August 5, 2015 11:37am
Griff

Go read the dsm5 for autism then consider for just a moment that Griff is in fact on the autistic spectrum.
There are for certain at lest two other aspies that comment on here regularly. Who they are is their business.
I would rather be aspie me than suffer from one of the many disabilities that formally common diseases we vaccinate against can have.
Like polio tetanus measles and rubella.

Ps tom you said you dont come to gd
morbid fascination….:lol:
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August 5, 2015 11:38am
UglyTruth

Ugly, as I pointed out, asserting something with which you happen to disagree does not constitute lying.

True – lying is when you intentionally mislead someone. A good indication that someone’s falsehood is intentional is how they react to being challenged: i.e. do they consider the facts or do they refuse to address the point and attempt to redirect the conversation as you have done?
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August 5, 2015 11:42am
mikenmild

But I have addressed your points. If you think there is a part of your argument that has not been addressed, I’ll gladly reconsider it.
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August 5, 2015 11:44am
stephieboy

Ugly Truth, what planet are Congressman Posey, Hooker etc and you living on ?,

August 27, 2014 Press Release, “Statement of William W. Thompson, Ph.D., Regarding the 2004 Article Examining the Possibility of a Relationship Between MMR Vaccine and Autism”

.entry-meta
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE-AUGUST 27,2014

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM W. THOMPSON, Ph.D., REGARDING THE 2004 ARTICLE EXAMINING THE POSSIBILITY OF A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MMR VACCINE AND AUTISM

“My name is William Thompson. I am a Senior Scientist with the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention, where I have worked since 1998.

I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.

I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and continue to save countless lives. I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefits.

My concern has been the decision to omit relevant findings in a particular study for a particular sub group for a particular vaccine. There have always been recognized risks for vaccination and I believe it is the responsibility of the CDC to properly convey the risks associated with receipt of those vaccines.

I have had many discussions with Dr. Brian Hooker over the last 10 months regarding studies the CDC has carried out regarding vaccines and neurodevelopmental outcomes including autism spectrum disorders. I share his beliefthat CDC decision-making and analyses should be transparent. I was not, however, aware that he was recording any of our conversations, nor was I given any choice regarding whether my name would be made public or my voice would be put on the Internet.

I am grateful for the many supportive e-mails that I have received over the last several days.
I will not be answering further questions at this time. I am providing information to Congressman William Posey, and of course will continue to cooperate with Congress. I have also offered to assist with reanalysis of the study data or development of further studies. For the time being, however, I am focused on my job and my family.

Reasonable scientists can and do differ in their interpretation of information. I will do everything I can to assist any unbiased and objective scientists inside or outside the CDC to analyze data collected by the CDC or other public organizations for the purpose of understanding whether vaccines are associated with an increased risk of autism. There are still more questions than answers, and I appreciate that so many families are looking for answers from the scientific community.

My colleagues and supervisors at the CDC have been entirely professional since this matter became public. In fact, I received a performance-based award after this story came out. I have experienced no pressure or retaliation and certainly was not escorted from the building, as some have stated.”

Dr. Thompson is represented by Frederick M. Morgan,Jr., Morgan Verkamp, LLC, Cincinnati, Ohio, http://www.morganverkamp.com.

http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-william-w-thompson-ph-d-regarding-the-2004-article-examining-the-possibility-of-a-relationship-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/

Again the evidence that CDC were engaged in a cover up e.g attempting to gag Dr Thompson ?
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August 5, 2015 11:44am
UglyTruth

But I have addressed your points.

Liar.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2015/08/general_debate_4_august_2015.html/comment-page-1#comment-1563059
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2015/08/general_debate_4_august_2015.html/comment-page-1#comment-1563071
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August 5, 2015 11:52am
Lance

Look here
UT thinks vaccinations are vast conspiracy by wicked people to do something bad to most people on earth.

No amount of facts or reasoning is going to change that.

Nothing to see here… move along
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August 5, 2015 11:52am
UglyTruth

Again the evidence that CDC were engaged in a cover up e.g attempting to gag Dr Thompson ?

I didn’t say that anyone was attempting to gag Dr Thompson, you sack of shit.
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August 5, 2015 11:53am
mikenmild

Oh Ugly, just when we were making progress. Neither of those comments show me lying, or refusing to consider your points.
But I’m not going to call you a liar for calling me a liar. What’s the point.

Again, if there are points in your argument that you feel have not been addressed, I’ll be happy to reconsider them.
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August 5, 2015 11:54am
UglyTruth

UT thinks vaccinations are vast conspiracy by wicked people to do something bad to most people on earth.

Liar. In some cases vaccination can prevent diseases and save lives.

Nothing to see here… move along

“I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism.” ~ William Thompson ,Senior Scientist with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
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August 5, 2015 11:55am
deadrightkev

iMP

“The Colin Craig train wreck is derailing. Word is, he is about to get heavily counter-sued.”

Really? Lets wait and see what transpires shall we? There is plenty of water to flow under the bridge on this yet.
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August 5, 2015 12:00pm
UglyTruth

Neither of those comments show me lying, or refusing to consider your points.

Liar. From my 9:26:

Why should I answer your question when you refuse to answer mine?

You asked your question immediately after I asked you about the CDC falsifying their report about the connection between the MMR vaccine and autism. This falsification is a matter of fact, and not a conspiracy theory as you implied. My question was in response to your denial of a causal relationship between the vaccine and autism.
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August 5, 2015 12:03pm
mikenmild

“I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism.” ~ William Thompson ,Senior Scientist with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

But what did you make of the refutation of that assertion?

And, once again, that 9.26 does not show me lying. Even if it did, I have twice offered to revisit any part of the argument you feel I have not addressed.
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August 5, 2015 12:04pm
UglyTruth

But what did you make of the refutation of that assertion?

It wasn’t refuted, liar. To deny is not the same as to refute.
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August 5, 2015 12:11pm
mikenmild

How was it not refuted? It seemed a pretty comprehensive explanation to me.
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August 5, 2015 12:13pm
stephieboy

Ugly Truth, please pay attention to the facts and try avoiding abuse,

“..What got lost in the brouhaha over Dr. Thompson’s “confession,” allegations about a “cover-up” at the CDC, and threats of whistleblower lawsuits was what should have been the main point: Did collected data actually prove that the MMR vaccine produces a 340% increased risk of autism in African-American boys? The answer is no, it did not.

On 27 August 2014, Dr. Hooker’s article published in the journal Translational Neurodegeneration that concluded “African American males receiving the MMR vaccine prior to 24 months of age or 36 months of age are more likely to receive an autism diagnosis” was removed from public domain due to issues of conflict of interest and the questionable validity of its methods:

>>The Editor and Publisher regretfully retract the article as there were undeclared competing interests on the part of the author which compromised the peer review process. Furthermore, post-publication peer review raised concerns about the validity of the methods and statistical analysis, therefore the Editors no longer have confidence in the soundness of the findings.<<>>Access to the information on the birth certificates allowed researchers to assess more complete information on race as well as other important characteristics, including possible risk factors for autism such as the child’s birth weight, mother’s age, and education. This information was not available for the children without birth certificates; hence CDC study did not present data by race on black, white, or other race children from the whole study sample. It presented the results on black and white/other race children from the group with birth certificates.

The study looked at different age groups: children vaccinated by 18 months, 24 months, and 36 months. The findings revealed that vaccination between 24 and 36 months was slightly more common among children with autism, and that association was strongest among children 3-5 years of age. The authors reported this finding was most likely a result of immunization requirements for preschool special education program attendance in children with autism.<<<

For a thorough analysis of the flaws and misinformation associated with the current CDC autism "cover-up" conspiracy theory, we recommend the posts on the subject at ScienceBlogs, which note of the claim at the heart of this matter (i.e, allegedly suppressed proof of a 340% increased risk of autism in African-American boys after MMR vaccination) that: ……”

More here ,

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/cdcwhistleblower.asp#CZtoWPjsllXGHkXi.99

and here,

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/08/22/brian-hooker-proves-andrew-wakefield-wrong-about-vaccines-and-autism/
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August 5, 2015 12:18pm
UglyTruth

How was it not refuted?

Because it did not show that Thompson’s admission was factually incorrect.

“The remaining four co-authors all met and brought a big garbage can into the meeting room and reviewed and went through all the hard copy documents that we had thought we should discard and put them in a huge garbage can.”

http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/07/breaking-news-congressman-posey-on-house-floor-cdc-authors-of-2004-mmr-paper-destroyed-documents.html
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August 5, 2015 12:30pm
UglyTruth

Ugly Truth, please pay attention to the facts and try avoiding abuse…

You seriously think that you don’t deserve abuse for lying about the facts and asking spurious questions, stephieboy?
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August 5, 2015 12:32pm
Ryan Sproull

Why are you asking me? I didn’t make the assertion, Griff did.

Oh, sorry, I thought you were the one saying that MMR causes autism.
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August 5, 2015 12:46pm
mikenmild

The published paper included the results of the birth certificate analysis by race and age at first MMR vaccination, but did not include a racial comparison from the larger group for age at first vaccination, because racial information was not available for all subjects, and that strange finding from the larger group was not reliable. Furthermore, as the subgroup analysis showed, that initial finding was wrong.

Do you have a problem with that explanation?

Remember, Thompson himself does not allege fraud.
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August 5, 2015 12:48pm
UglyTruth

Oh, sorry, I thought you were the one saying that MMR causes autism.

What I’m saying is that the fact that the CDC falsified their report by omitting statistically signification data suggests that a causal relationship does actually exist. Griff’s argument was that the risk was worth it.
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August 5, 2015 12:51pm
mikenmild

But the CDC did not falsify any report.
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August 5, 2015 12:54pm
UglyTruth

Do you have a problem with that explanation?

Yes, the reason given contradicts Thomson’s explanation, which implies that the data was discarded because it showed that MMR could lead to autism.

“We hypothesized that if we found statistically significant effects at either 18 or 36 month thresholds, we would conclude that vaccinating children early with MMR could lead to autism-like characteristics or features.” ~ William Thompson
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August 5, 2015 12:56pm
UglyTruth

But the CDC did not falsify any report.

It falsified it by omitting statistically significant data.
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August 5, 2015 12:57pm
mikenmild

But the data did not show that. The only researcher who thought that, Brian Hooker, had his paper withdrawn because it was inadequate.
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August 5, 2015 1:00pm
UglyTruth

But the data did not show that.

Thompson said that it showed a statistically significant relationship between vaccination and autism.
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August 5, 2015 1:04pm
mikenmild

Thompson said that; but he was wrong.
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August 5, 2015 1:09pm
UglyTruth

Why would anyone believe that?
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August 5, 2015 1:10pm
mikenmild

For the reasons I have quoted at 12.48.
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August 5, 2015 1:14pm
UglyTruth

No reason, then.
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August 5, 2015 1:16pm
mikenmild

Well, they made sense to me. Look, Thompson thought that the data should have been included. He did not allege any fraud or falsification. The omitted data was presented in Hooker’s paper, which was found to be flawed.
Even if there were some smoking gun here, or an indication that there was a link between MMR and autism, you would still need to explain away the several large-scale studies that have shown no such link.
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August 5, 2015 1:29pm
UglyTruth

Well, they made sense to me.

How could they make sense? You didn’t post anything at 12:48.

The omitted data was presented in Hooker’s paper, which was found to be flawed.

Evidence is often flawed, in the sense that it is incomplete. This doesn’t stop it from being relevant.
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August 5, 2015 1:42pm
mikenmild

At 12.48 I posted the following quote:

The published paper included the results of the birth certificate analysis by race and age at first MMR vaccination, but did not include a racial comparison from the larger group for age at first vaccination, because racial information was not available for all subjects, and that strange finding from the larger group was not reliable. Furthermore, as the subgroup analysis showed, that initial finding was wrong.
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August 5, 2015 1:47pm
UglyTruth

At 12.48 I posted the following quote:

Oh right, this thread spans two days and you didn’t post anything yesterday at that time.

As I pointed out earlier, you source was lying about Thompson’s 2014 admission, so there’s no reason to believe them about Hooker’s paper.
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August 5, 2015 1:56pm
mikenmild

You don’t find the explanation for the omission credible? In what way?
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August 5, 2015 2:00pm
UglyTruth

Because the source of the explanation lied about the subject matter.
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August 5, 2015 2:01pm
Shawn Herles

You won’t believe this HORROR … but it’s real. Planned Parenthood official talks of harvesting “intact fetal cadavers”

“It was a twin. The intestines are right here, see? eyeballs are so easy … they come out, like, firmer”

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/planned-parenthood-video-it-was-twin-intestines-are-here-eyeballs-are

Liberals are baby butchers.
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August 5, 2015 2:28pm
Shawn Herles

The Netherlands to Abandon Multiculturalism

“The Dutch government says it will abandon the long-standing model of multiculturalism that has encouraged Muslim immigrants to create a parallel society within the Netherlands.

A new integration bill (covering letter and 15-page action plan), which Dutch Interior Minister Piet Hein Donner presented to parliament on June 16, reads: “The government shares the social dissatisfaction over the multicultural society model and plans to shift priority to the values of the Dutch people. In the new integration system, the values of the Dutch society play a central role. With this change, the government steps away from the model of a multicultural society.”

The letter continues: “A more obligatory integration is justified because the government also demands that from its own citizens. It is necessary because otherwise the society gradually grows apart and eventually no one feels at home anymore in the Netherlands. The integration will not be tailored to different groups.”

The new integration policy will place more demands on immigrants. For example, immigrants will be required to learn the Dutch language, and the government will take a tougher approach to immigrants to ignore Dutch values or disobey Dutch law.”

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2219/netherlands-abandons-multiculturalism
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August 5, 2015 2:52pm
Shawn Herles

Yet another example of why race relations have deteriorated under Obama’s racist administration.

U.S. Pays Black Comedian to Deliver Anti-White Racist Tirade at Fed Agency

“The U.S. government paid a controversial civil rights activist/comedian to deliver an anti-white racist tirade at a major federal agency during Black History month and Judicial Watch has obtained the disturbing transcript and the shocking video of the offensive political rant.”

https://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2015/08/u-s-pays-black-comedian-to-deliver-anti-white-racist-tirade-at-fed-agency/
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August 5, 2015 2:57pm

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