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July 6, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 6 July 2015

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Shawn Herles

“You still all butthurt about me pointing out that hypocrisy is part of the Christian canon via the Paul the Pharisee?”

You mean your hilarious fantasy? Actually I saved those comments and shared them with my theology tutors at Otago Uni. Much humor was had be all! Thanks for that Ugly. You’re a great source of comedy! 🙂
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July 6, 2015 5:22pm
Dennis Horne

Diana Douglas, actress – obituary
Actress from an old Bermudian family who married Kirk Douglas and was in more than 20 films

Diana Douglas, who has died aged 92, was the first wife of the Hollywood film star Kirk Douglas and the mother of his two sons, the elder being the producer and Fatal Attraction star Michael Douglas.
The marriage lasted only a few years, but in 1999, when she was 77, she published a candid memoir, In the Wings, in which she accused her former husband of being a drug-addicted, “sexually voracious bird of prey”. She also claimed that in the course of the marriage she had an affair with Errol Flynn. The next year Kirk Douglas threatened to boycott the wedding of his son Michael to the British actress Catherine Zeta-Jones if his ex-wife attended, calling Diana a “blabbermouth”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/11719052/Diana-Douglas-actress-obituary.html
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July 6, 2015 5:29pm
UglyTruth

UT, Marriage in England and wales during the Medieval period was based on Canon law and Common law marriage derived therefrom

The prohibition against adultery from the ten commandments predates the canon law, idiot. The dooms of King Alfred draw from the ten commandments not from the Canon law.
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July 6, 2015 5:30pm
UglyTruth

You mean your hilarious fantasy?

Which bit do you think is a fantasy?

In the Bible the Pharisees were condemned as hypocrites.
Paul was a Pharisee.
Paul wrote several of the books of the Bible.
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July 6, 2015 5:32pm
Shawn Herles

“Which bit do you think is a fantasy?”

In your case Ugly, pretty much everything you say.

“In the Bible the Pharisees were condemned as hypocrites.”

Jesus also praised those Pharisees who listened to his teachings.

“Paul was a Pharisee.”

Paul was a Pharisee who accepted Christ as his Lord and Saviour, thus the condemnation does not apply to him.

“Paul wrote several books on the Bible.”

Paul wrote several books IN the Bible.
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July 6, 2015 5:37pm
Fletch

We could go on to the Catholic church, slavery of single mothers

Huh?

baby selling

Huh?

and boy molesting

Not approved of by the Church, any more than domestic violence against women is approved of by [insert name of football team whose player has assaulted a woman]. Oh, and at 3:36 you wrote –

The homosexuality of Rome still lingers.
It’s legacy can still be found in the Roman Catholic church.

There is some truth to that. It was priests who happened to have homosexual tendencies that carried out horrible acts against boys. And, again, not approved of by the Church. They ought never to have been priests.
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July 6, 2015 5:42pm
Shawn Herles

“It was priests who happened to have homosexual tendencies that carried out horrible acts against boys.”

Yes, Griff scored a bit of an own goal with that one.
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July 6, 2015 5:44pm
Nostradamus

This promised to be one of the best match-ups on Kiwiblog that we’ve seen in a while:

Reid (18,309 comments) says:
July 2nd, 2015 at 8:47 pm

Last time you posted this crap I demonstrated that neither Lenin or Stalin were Jews, or have you forgotten?

Yes I have and I also think they were. Shall we have a fight about it with our respective evidence. Can I suggest we do that Saturday during the day, as I can’t be arsed doing anything like that now. Or name any time you like, over the coming weekend, and I shall be there, with evidence, to trounce you into the mud, bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. So there.

Reid (18,309 comments) says:
July 2nd, 2015 at 9:00 pm

I have other evidence SPC and I also note you haven’t provided anything except your own words and we really do need more than that, when you’re ready. As explained, I’ll present mine at a time of your choosing over the weekend. Let me know when. But I’m not looking it up now, for reasons previously explained.

But put yours forward whenever, now is fine, just be ready to give me a link to it on the weekend.

SPC (6,865 comments) says:
July 2nd, 2015 at 9:40 pm

Reid, just post up some rebuttal on Friday night or Saturday, at any time convenient, and I will check for it later in the evening.

Did I blink and miss it?
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July 6, 2015 5:44pm
UglyTruth

Paul was a Pharisee who accepted Christ as his Lord and Saviour, thus the condemnation does not apply to him.

Non sequitur. He was also condemned in Revelation 2:2 as one of the false apostles rejected at Ephesus.
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July 6, 2015 5:44pm
stigie

Fuck me, i just cant get my head around so many deviants in some churches…mind boggling !~
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July 6, 2015 5:52pm
stephieboy

Ugly Truth, canon law drew for its inspiration and guide from a number sources including the New Testament and unquestionably from the Old Testament including of course the Ten commandments .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_law_(Catholic_Church)#Jus_Antiquum
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July 6, 2015 5:52pm
thedavincimode

Jesus also praised those Pharisees who listened to his teachings.

That’s a bit like the shrunken charlatan praising Chinese who voted for him.
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July 6, 2015 5:54pm
Dennis Horne

There was an old Buck called Herles
Whose knob was covered in knurls
He asked Dr Dawkins
The origin of foreskins
And with a flourish gave it some twirls

Something to share with your Otago tutors. For a laugh.
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July 6, 2015 5:57pm
nasska

Fletch

…..”We could go on to the Catholic church, slavery of single mothers

Huh? “….

Tuam & the Magdalene Laundries ring a bell?

…..”baby selling

Huh?”…..

It should be really chiming by now!

….”and boy molesting”…..

Absolutely rife within & covered up by the corrupt RC Church. If they’d come out & admitted that there was a huge problem with boy bothering your arguments might hold water….they didn’t.
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July 6, 2015 6:00pm
Griff

He travelled across Ireland and America to hear touching stories of lives irrevocably changed, while investigating the Catholic Church’s role in a huge, horrible adoption racket which saw thousands of “illegitimate” children taken from their “fallen” mothers and packed off abroad, often with generous donations to the Church flowing in the other direction. Buying and selling babies by another name.

It was affecting enough already before the sucker punch: prospective parents, some of whom had chosen their new charges from a primitive, pictorial mail order catalogue, weren’t properly vetted. This meant children were taken from their mothers, flown to a foreign land and placed in the care of brutal bullies or paedophiles – one of whom was a priest, using and abusing his clerical connections. The powerful testimonies of children whose lives had been wrecked were anger-inducing but also humbling. They showed heroic forgiveness and resilience.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/tv-and-radio-reviews/11102907/Irelands-Lost-Babies-review-a-heartbreaking-unholy-mess.html

300,000 babies stolen from their parents – and sold for adoption: Haunting BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049647/BBC-documentary-exposes-50-year-scandal-baby-trafficking-Catholic-church-Spain.html#ixzz3f5VdlajF

The Catholic sex abuse cases are a series of allegations, investigations, trials, and convictions of child sexual abuse crimes committed by Catholic priests, nuns, and members of Roman Catholic orders against boys and girls as young as 3 years old, with the majority between the ages of 11 and 14.[1][2][3] The accusations first began to receive wide publicity in the late 1980s; many span several decades, and were brought forward years after the abuse occurred. Cases have also been brought against members of the Catholic hierarchy who did not report sex abuse allegations to the legal authorities. It was shown that they deliberately moved sexually abusive priests to other parishes, where the abuse sometimes continued.[4] This led to a number of fraud cases, in which the Roman Catholic Church was accused of misleading victims by deliberately relocating priests accused of abuse, instead of removing them from their positions
Wiki

Pope Francis has revealed that around one in every 50 Catholic priests is a paedophile.

Condemning the issue as a ‘leprosy’ which infects the Church, the Pontiff was yesterday reported as claiming that even bishops and cardinals are among the ‘2 per cent’ carrying out child abuse.

Pope Francis lambasts Catholic bishops who helped cover up child abuse
Pontiff makes strongest condemnation yet of paedophile priests and senior clergy who obfuscated rather than punished

Australia: Fires burn Catholic churches linked to paedophile priests in Melbourne

One word

FILTH
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July 6, 2015 6:00pm
Shawn Herles

“He was also condemned in Revelation 2:2 as one of the false apostles rejected at Ephesus.”

Paul is not mentioned in Revelations 2:2. The verse is a reference to people teaching Gnosticism.

That’s 2 for 2 fails.
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July 6, 2015 6:06pm
Shawn Herles

“FILTH”

Well. the unrepentant homosexuals who carried out most of the post-pubescent boy fiddling could be described that way, and of course those that tried to cover it up.

For the same reason, so could Richard Dawkins.

So, we have homosexuals and an atheist in the dock.

This debate is not looking good for secular social liberals! 😉
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July 6, 2015 6:10pm
UglyTruth

Paul is not mentioned in Revelations 2:2.

Not by name, but he is the only liar and false apostle to be rejected at Ephesus in the Bible – he lied about his apostleship in Acts 26.

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples …

And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
Acts 19

Paul was also rejected by the target audience of the book of Revelation, the disciples in Asia.

This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me
2 Tim 1:15
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July 6, 2015 6:16pm
mikenmild

How do you equate pedophile priests with secular liberals?
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July 6, 2015 6:16pm
Dennis Horne

Don’t be ridiculous, Shawn. Dawkins is talking about brief touching, which, while queer, and certainly unacceptable now, almost certainly caused less harm than making an awful fuss to the extent the boy thought he had undergone some irreversible catastrophe that had to be announced publicly.
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July 6, 2015 6:21pm
Griff

Pedophiles Shawn not homosexuals.
Blaming it on homosexuals is just Fletch continuing the Catholic apologetics of denial that made the problem stay hidden enabling the abuse to be so endemic within the church.

He is continuing the mindset that enabled the abuse by posting such rubbish .

Kiddys stolen raped enslaved and sold you think ISIS is an exaggeration?
We could go back a little further and examine such Christian practices as stake burning and drownings.
Who were the pilgrims and why Shawn?

.
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July 6, 2015 6:30pm
nasska

Shawn

In your haste to side with your comrades with an imaginary friend you neglect two very important points;

1) Richard Dawkins was giving his personal views as a VICTIM of abuse. He did not condone the offence nor excuse it…..he merely pointed out that there were degrees of the severity of the abuse. This is when the cornered Godaddled seized on his words in a desperate attempt to equalize their culpability with that of the Godless…..surely a futile task.

2) The Catholic priesthood abused the boys not only in a physical sense but used the instilled religious guilt & reverence for their authority to further their grubby desires. They preyed on kids with a lowered ability to refuse the unwanted attention. No one would believe or act on their protestations…..not their pitiful brainwashed parents nor the superiors of the abusers.

Stop trying to defend the indefensible by shouting “look over there…he’s doing it too”.

You’re better than that.
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July 6, 2015 6:30pm
UglyTruth

You’re better than that.

No, he’s not.
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July 6, 2015 6:37pm
Manolo

Islam, the vile and barbaric religion of peace, strikes again. Boko Haram dispenses its version of Muslim love: http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/boko-haram-caps-violent-week-with-church-bombing/

Boko Haram has claimed responsibility for a suicide bombing that killed at least five people inside a church. Approximately 200 people have been killed over the past few days in Nigeria.
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July 6, 2015 6:38pm
Dennis Horne

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11476493
FMA wouldn’t have won at trial: Hanover directors

The Financial Markets Authority wouldn’t have won at trial, said Mark Hotchin and three other Hanover directors who have reached an $18 million settlement with the regulator.

The four directors – Hotchin, Bruce Gordon, Gregory Muir and Tipene O’Regan – also said the failed finance company had “excellent reporting systems and high quality management and governance”.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11476493

You see, nice guys volunteer to pay up.
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July 6, 2015 6:48pm
SGA

@Shawn
Maybe you should run your 5:16 and 6:10 combination past your tutors at Otago as well? Or, maybe not.
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July 6, 2015 6:54pm
stephieboy

Ugly Truth, you certainly have a very far fetched interpretation of Acts 19 as this Bible Commentary demonstrably shows ,

http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=44&c=19

ACTS 26 Lied about his apostleship ? Where specifically ?

2 Tim : 15 Simply those who did not accept his preaching about the gospel of christ and his understanding of it surely ?
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July 6, 2015 7:04pm
UglyTruth

Ugly Truth, you certainly have a very far fetched interpretation of Acts 19 as this Bible Commentary demonstrably shows…

Acts 19 is written from Paul’s perspective. From the perspective of the Ephesians, Paul was rejected, just as Paul describes in his letter to Timothy when he laments that “all they which are in Asia be turned away from me”.

ACTS 26 Lied about his apostleship ? Where specifically ?

Verses 15-18.

“And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

We know that his account is false because it contradicts his own earlier account in Acts 22:10 ….

“And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.”

… and it contracts the earlier account of the witnesses in Acts 9:6

“And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.”
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July 6, 2015 7:31pm
Reid

Did I blink and miss it?

No Nosty, I’m unwell currently and will do it sometime when I’m better.

And I think you’re overestimating the value of it. All it’s going to be is some desperate googling to find some authority that suits your predisposed view on it and triumphantly tabling it as if it answers anything.

The points that will be raised in the articles I table, will, as usual, not even be mentioned.

I hope SPC is better than all the rest of them, but this has been the case all other times, so why would he be any different.
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July 6, 2015 8:12pm
Fletch

Tuam & the Magdalene Laundries ring a bell?

Lies and lies.

The publication last week of the Irish government’s McAleese Report on the Magdalene laundries has proved kind of awkward for Catholic-bashers. For if McAleese’s thorough, 1,000-page study is to be believed, then it would appear that those laundries were not as evil and foul as they had been depicted over the past decade. Specifically the image of the laundries promoted by the popular, much-lauded film The Magdalene Sisters – which showed them as places where women were stripped, slapped, sexually abused and more – has been called into question by McAleese. This has led even The Irish Times, which never turns down an opportunity to wring its hands over Catholic wickedness, to say: “There is no escaping the fact that the [McAleese] report jars with popular perceptions.”

In the Irish mind, and in the minds of everyone else who has seen or read one of the many films, plays and books about the Magdalene laundries, these were horrific institutions brimming with violence and overseen by sadistic, pervy nuns. Yet the McAleese Report found not a single incident of sexual abuse by a nun in a Magdalene laundry. Not one. Also, the vast majority of its interviewees said they were never physically punished in the laundries. As one woman said, “It has shocked me to read in papers that we were beat and our heads shaved and that we were badly treated by the nuns… I was not touched by any nun and I never saw anyone touched.” The small number of cases of corporal punishment reported to McAleese consisted of the kind of thing that happened in many normal schools in the 1960s, 70s and 80s: being caned on the legs or rapped on the knuckles. The authors of the McAleese Report, having like the rest of us imbibed the popular image of the Magdalene laundries as nun-run concentration camps, seem to have been taken aback by “the number of women who spoke positively about the nuns”.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100202781/catholic-bashers-have-embellished-the-truth-about-abuse-in-catholic-institutions-its-time-to-put-the-record-straight/

And

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-tuam-tank-another-myth-about-evil-ireland/15140
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July 6, 2015 8:26pm
Fletch

Always makes me laugh seeing people like UT trying to say stuff about The Bible, a book they have never read and don’t understand. Where’d you google that load of tripe from? Not actually sure what it is trying to say, or where the supposed contradiction is? 😛
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July 6, 2015 8:28pm
stephieboy

Ugly Truth,

Again an incredibly absurd interpretation by you of ACTS 9 : 6 totally at variance with this commentary,

http://www.studylight.org/commentary/acts/9-6.html#acc

Are you a New Testament Scholar by chance ??
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July 6, 2015 8:43pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Re The Magdalene Laundries/asylums

I wonder what that apology from the (Prime minister) Taoiseach was all about then

”

On 19 February 2013, the Taoiseach Enda Kenny issued a formal state apology. He described the laundries as “the nation’s shame” and said,

“Therefore, I, as Taoiseach, on behalf of the State, the government and our citizens deeply regret and apologise unreservedly to all those women for the hurt that was done to them, and for any stigma they suffered, as a result of the time they spent in a Magdalene Laundry.”

The Taoiseach also outlined part of the compensation package to be offered to victims of the Magdalene Laundries. He stated:

“That’s why the Government has today asked the President of the Law Reform Commission Judge John Quirke to undertake a three month review and to make recommendations as to the criteria that should be applied in assessing the help that the government can provide in the areas of payments and other supports, including medical card, psychological and counselling services and other welfare needs.

Still, they were only”fallen women”, eh!
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July 6, 2015 8:44pm
Fletch

I’m still not sure where this contradiction is. Do you even know the story of Paul?
He name originally was Saul, and he was a prominent Jew who persecuted the first Christians after Jesus died. He was present at Stephen’s (the first martyr’s) murder. He was on his way to Damascus, and the risen Jesus appeared to him. There was a bright light and he was blinded and knocked from his horse. Jesus told him to carry on into the city and meet a man who would pray for him. His companions led him into the city and they found the man who did indeed pray for him. Things like scales fell from his eyes and he could see again.

After that, he changed his name to Paul and became one of the greatest Christians ever. A great number of the letters in the new Testament are written by him – eg, to the Galatians, the Philippians, the Hebrews, Ephesians, etc..
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July 6, 2015 8:49pm
UglyTruth

Go back to troll school, Fletch, you’re failing to score here.

After that, he changed his name to Paul and became one of the greatest Christians ever.

“I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.”
2Co 11:8
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July 6, 2015 8:49pm
Fletch

Maggy, sounds like pure politics to me. Especially since the 1000 page McAleese Report came out only days before.
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July 6, 2015 8:51pm
Fletch

“I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.”
2Co 11:8

UT, lets look at your whole quote in context, shall we?

But did I perhaps make a mistake and do you a wrong in debasing and cheapening myself so that you might be exalted and enriched in dignity and honor and happiness by preaching God’s Gospel without expense to you?

8 Other churches I have robbed by accepting [more than their share of] support for my ministry [from them in order] to serve you. And when I was with you and ran short financially, I did not burden any [of you], for what I lacked was abundantly made up by the brethren who came from Macedonia. So I kept myself from being burdensome to you in any way, and will continue to keep [myself from being so].

What he is saying is that he feels he has “robbed” other churches (in different districts) because he accepted alms or payment from them to support his ministry, but not from the Colossians. He is not talking about “robbed” as in stolen.
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July 6, 2015 9:00pm
Urban Redneck

@ Fletch

http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/yes-gay-marriage-hurts-me-personally/
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July 6, 2015 9:09pm
stephieboy

UT, here this commentary gets to the real import of Paul’s comments about “ robbed “ etc,

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
8. I robbed other churches] “An hyperbolical expression” (Meyer). And yet in one sense it was true, for the Corinthians were just as much bound to support the Apostle when at Corinth as any other Churches were when the Apostle was with them. And, therefore, if when at Corinth he availed himself of assistance from those other Churches, he was taking from them what they ought not to have been called upon to supply. Why he did so we are told in 2 Corinthians 11:12.

taking wages of them] The Philippian Church, we learn from Php 4:15-16 (cf. next verse), is the Church referred to. Their liberality, St Paul felt, was not likely to be cast in his teeth, therefore he readily accepted it. In later days he again received their bounty with a willingness which would not, he knew, be misconstrued. This is an instance of that minute but undesigned agreement in points of detail which constitutes so strong an argument for the genuineness of most of the Scriptures of the N. T. For the word translated wages see St Luke 3:14; Romans 6:23; 1 Corinthians 9:7. It was most commonly used of a soldier’s pay, when given in kind.

to do you service] Rather, towards my support in my ministry to you.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_corinthians/11-8.htm

Is your apparent aversion to Paul is due the fact he was a jew ?
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July 6, 2015 9:13pm
Fletch

Persecution against Christians over gay marriage begins in Australia, and it isn’t even legal there yet!

The Archbishop of Hobart, Julian Porteous, has been threatened with being taken to Tasmania’s anti-discrimination commission because he distributed to booklet Don’t Mess With Marriage to Catholic schools, reports The Australian.

The booklet was distributed to the parents of students in Catholic high schools throughout Australia, but same-sex advocates in Tasmania campaigned against the booklet and urged teachers and parents to make complaints to the Anti-Discrimination Commissioner, Robin Banks.

Australian Marriage equality national director Rodney Croome said it was “completely inappropriate” for the Church to use young people as “couriers of prejudice.”

The Archbishop has since received several letters complaining about the booklet, which outlines Catholic teaching on marriage, and was sent home via students to parents in a sealed envelope.

One letter said a formal complaint was being made about him to Ms Banks.

Not even allowed to distribute booklets about the Catholic belief in marriage in our own schools
What is going to happen if gay marriage is legalized there?
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July 6, 2015 9:13pm
UglyTruth

He is not talking about “robbed” as in stolen.

Actually he is.

Vertumnus retreated, humiliated, and I turned back to the three elders:
‘What evidence do you have that either Simon, or Paul, or both, were involved in this
robbery.’
‘Nothing that would stand up in a law-court,’ replied Artemidorus. ‘It is just that
Simon had left a day or two before, and a week or two earlier Paul had become our
treasurer. When he left, we found such an enormous sum of money had gone missing
that we could not believe that the thieves had taken it all away, as we doubt whether
there was that much actually in the strong-room at the time.’
‘So Paul may have taken advantage of the confusion to siphon off even more money.’
‘Yes, and our books were in sad confusion as it was, as our previous treasurer had
been ill for months before and had not had the strength to do any work.’
‘Well,’ I said, ‘as you say, there is nothing here to prove conclusively that either of
these men had a hand in the robbery. Now tell me, what did you do after Simon and
Paul left your sect.’
‘When Paul left, he took good care to leave the province very soon after and so we
have never been able to catch up with him. Since Simon left we have constantly been
on his trail, but we find that he was always able, either to elude arrest, or to bribe the
officials, as, as you may have noticed already, Egypt is a very corrupt province and
the police force is lazy and incompetent.’

THE THIRTEENTH APOSTLE: THE STORY OF PAUL OF TARSUS
as told by Marcus Calpurnius Fronto, sometime Special Investigator with the Roman Secret Service

http://www.jleonard.net/13ap.pdf
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July 6, 2015 9:14pm
Fletch

Urban Redneck, yes I read that the other day. Great article by Mr Walsh!
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July 6, 2015 9:15pm
Griff

You are a sick puppy fletch.
Keep showing us how corrupt Catholics are and how they lie about the abuses they systematically perpetrated

http://www.magdalenelaundries.com/press/JFMR%20PR%20090115.pdf

The Mother and Baby homes and Magdalene Laundries were both integral parts of Ireland’s architecture of containment of ‘problem’ women and girls. As JFMR has previously pointed out to Minister Reilly, the McAleese inquiry did not investigate or make findings about abuse or lines of responsibility for abuse in the Magdalene Laundries. Furthermore, the McAleese Report does not contain a single word from the 796 pages of testimony submitted by JFM and it failed to adequately examine issues relating to deaths and burials. Serious doubt has been cast on the accuracy of the McAleese Report’s assertions regarding duration of stay
The McAleese Committee’s terms of reference were limited to investigating State involvement with the Laundries only. We believe that it is partly because of the gaps in the McAleese Committee’s terms of reference that all religious orders involved still refuse to apologise or provide redress to the women who spent time in Magdalene
Laundries..

What about stealing the babys ?
Under what right were those woman locked up often for life ?
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July 6, 2015 9:17pm
Nostradamus

Reid:

No Nosty, I’m unwell currently and will do it sometime when I’m better.

Hope you feel better soon.

I hope SPC is better than all the rest of them, but this has been the case all other times, so why would he be any different.

I haven’t paid that much attention to SPC’s contributions here. I think he’s a lefty, so let’s not hold that against him, and I seem to recall that he staunchly defended Len Brown (in relation to half-truth/full-disclosure issues) when his sexual indiscretions came to light.

But, for what it’s worth, he seems capable of stringing together a half-coherent argument – so I’m very much looking forward to your debate with him.
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July 6, 2015 9:18pm
Fletch

UT, I’m sure that is not from the Bible. Looks like someone’s idea of fan fiction to me.
Read what stephieboy wrote for a scholarly look at the facts.
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July 6, 2015 9:19pm
Sponge

These religious arguments are, quite frankly, some of the most riveting reading on the internet. I assume they will result in a climax of theology whereby one or other of the protagonists accepts they are wrong?
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July 6, 2015 9:21pm
Fletch

Griff, that whole site you linked to is dedicated to the premise that women were abused in the Launderies. They could hardly shut down the site, now could they, on release of the report and admit, well, they were wrong. Of course they are going to say the report is wrong. I expect nothing less. That doesn’t take anything away from the report, or the evidence of the women who went there who say they were never mistreated at all.
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July 6, 2015 9:24pm
stephieboy

Ugly Truth, this really wont do . Your link contains an article based on a translation by a certain John Leonard . Who is he and where did he source his document from ?

There was A Roman Consul and Politician by a similar name but he came long before the apostle Paul,

http://www.britannica.com/biography/Marcus-Calpurnius-Bibulus and this fellow here under Antonia Pius ,

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Marcus+Cornelius+Fronto

Can you independently verify ??
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July 6, 2015 9:24pm
Fletch

UT, as I thought, it’s some kind of fictional book written by a guy who hates the Church.

http://www.amazon.com/Paul-Tarsus-The-Thirteenth-Apostle/dp/1494409321
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July 6, 2015 9:28pm
UglyTruth

These religious arguments are, quite frankly, some of the most riveting reading on the internet. I assume they will result in a climax of theology whereby one or other of the protagonists accepts they are wrong?

Accepting that you are wrong isn’t a characteristic of the blind or the vain. The blindness of apostates is mentioned quite a bit in religious texts, and Pauline vanity is quite evident both from Paul’s own writings “I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles” and from one of Paul’s contenporaries “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”.
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July 6, 2015 9:31pm
nasska

Fletch

When you can spare a few minutes from your life’s work of apologising for the actions of your wretched church you might want to edit this Wiki article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Secours_Mother_and_Baby_Home
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July 6, 2015 9:34pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@Griff

Now concerning my climate warming scepticism and Fletch’s take on the Irish PM’s apology for the Magdalene saga (& the later disclosures _Tuam, GlaxoSmith Kline drug trials etc) how would you rate each of us on a wing-nuttery scale of 1 to 10?
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July 6, 2015 9:37pm
stephieboy

Ugly Truth, sure Paul was aware that he did have a bit of big ego and dis his best to tame it reminding himself all the time ,

3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

Philippians 2:3English Standard Version (ESV)
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July 6, 2015 9:44pm
nasska

Unmarried mother Philomena Lee was forced to give up her son to Irish nuns, who sold him on to rich Americans. I have no doubt that the resident Catholic apologists will have many reasons why the Guardian would lie like flounder over the matter but readers of this forum might want to take a look & make up their own minds:

….”When her pregnancy became obvious, her family had Philomena “put away” with the nuns. After her baby, Anthony, was born, the mother superior threatened Philomena with damnation if ever she breathed a word about her “guilty secret”. “….

….”the Catholic church said single mothers were moral degenerates who could not be allowed to keep their children.

Such was the power of the church, and of Archbishop John Charles McQuaid, that the state bowed before its demands, ceding responsibility for the mothers and babies to the nuns. For them it was not only a matter of sin and morality, but one of pounds, shillings and pence. At the time young Anthony Lee was born, I discovered that the Irish government was paying the Catholic church a pound a week for every woman in its care, and two shillings and sixpence for every baby. And that was not all.

After giving birth, the girls were allowed to leave the convent only if they or their family could pay the nuns £100. It was a substantial sum, and those who couldn’t afford it – the vast majority – were kept in the convent for three years, working in kitchens, greenhouses and laundries or making rosary beads and religious artefacts, while the church kept the profits from their labour.”…..

…..”Early on in the search I realised that the Irish Catholic hierarchy had been engaged in what amounted to an illicit baby trade. From the end of the second world war until the 1970s, it considered the thousands of souls born in its care to be the church’s own property. With or without the agreement of their mothers, it sold them to the highest bidder. Every year, hundreds were shipped off to American couples who paid “donations” (in reality, fees) to the nuns. Few if any checks were made on the suitability of the adopting families – the only condition laid down by Archbishop McQuaid was that they should be practising Catholics.”…..

Read & weep!

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/sep/19/catholic-church-sold-child
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July 6, 2015 9:55pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Even better…. watch the movie Philomena
http://putlocker.is/watch-philomena-online-free-putlocker.html

and remember it wasn’t so long ago that NZ unwed mums had to give up their babes.
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July 6, 2015 10:05pm
UglyTruth

UT, as I thought, it’s some kind of fictional book written by a guy who hates the Church.

http://www.amazon.com/Paul-Tarsus-The-Thirteenth-Apostle/dp/1494409321

That’s a different book with a similar title, Fletch.
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July 6, 2015 10:08pm
Nostradamus

Fletch:

it’s some kind of fictional book written by a guy who hates the Church.

You’re not talking about the Bible are you? (Sorry – couldn’t resist!)
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July 6, 2015 10:14pm
Sponge

You’re not talking about the Bible are you? (Sorry – couldn’t resist!)

I thought a Papal encyclical myself.
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July 6, 2015 10:20pm
Nostradamus

Bridge to Hawaii

A man walking along a California beach was deep in prayer. All of a sudden, he said out loud, “Lord, grant me one wish.”

The sunny California sky clouded above his head and in a booming voice, and the Lord said, “Because you have tried to be faithful to me in all ways, I will grant you one wish.”

The man said, “Build a bridge to Hawaii so I can drive over anytime I want.”

The Lord said, “Your request is very materialistic. Think of the enormous challenges for that kind of undertaking. The supports required to reach the bottom of the Pacific! The concrete and steel it would take over thousands of miles! I can do it, but it is hard for me to justify your desire for worldly things. Take a little more time and think of another wish, a wish you think would honour and glorify me.”

The man thought about it for a long time. Finally he said, “Lord, I wish that I could understand women. I want to know how they feel inside, what they are thinking when they give the silent treatment, why they cry, what they mean when they say ” nothing!”, and how I can make a woman truly happy.”

The Lord replied, “You want two lanes or four lanes on that bridge?”
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July 6, 2015 10:26pm
ste3e

Two zen monks were wandering back to the monastery when they came across a girl stranded on their side of a river. One monk picked the girl up, carried her across the water. The two monks continued on their way with one worrying and chastising the other over vows and fraternization declaring the other should not have carried the girl across the river. After a while of this the other retorted “Are you still carrying that woman, I left her at the river bank.”
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July 6, 2015 11:03pm
Manolo

Farage writes: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11720081/Greece-votes-No-The-European-Union-is-dying-before-our-eyes.html

The result is a tired, stumbling European Union that is dying on its feet before our very eyes. Credibility for the project is fading fast as citizens right across Europe awaken to the reality of its authoritarian instincts that seek to run roughshod over public opinion.
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July 7, 2015 6:46am
Manolo

With friends like Kirchner and Castro who needs enemies: http://news.yahoo.com/latin-america-celebrates-greek-austerity-no-vote-095822566.html;_ylt=AwrC1Cg9bJpVrUEAykvQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTBydDI5cXVuBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM2BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg–

A handful of countries across Latin America congratulated Greece on its Sunday referendum in which voters rejected creditors’ austerity demands.
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July 7, 2015 7:00am

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