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July 24, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 24 July 2015

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General Debate

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SPC

More obscufication from politicians.

Labour says TPP would ban restrictions on foreign ownership of housing and land.

The PM says this would not apply to China unless it joined TPP. But the government could still use TAX to restrict foreign ownership.

But until now the story had been how clauses in the free trade deal with China meant we had to give them the same investment access as other nations (and as CER allowed Oz investor access the Chinese had to get the right to buy housing and land) AND had to offer equal tax treatment for their investors as locals.

So we CANNOT use a tax barrier against foreign investors in land and housing because of the deal with China and now we cannot ban foreign buy up of housing and land because of TPP.

The PM has also said that if the new rules (tax number, indicating offshore residence) showed significant offshore investor influence the government the public was unhappy with the government would act.

This was/is deceitful as he knew the TPP required open access for foreign investment in housing and land.

He meant to say that, by that time TPP will be the reason why we will say we are unable to act on local concern, because we will by then have ceded the right to.
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July 24, 2015 8:01am
igm

Newstalk once again running a Labour Party Political Broadcast this morning . . . is Gutless Little Andy acting chief sub, or maybe McCarten? Seems, along with Soper, they are totally committed to leeching Labour promotion which will start driving advertisers away as they have in other MSM outlets.
SPC: You are so learned, but it would be best you check the spelling of your main adjective!
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July 24, 2015 8:05am
Yvette

A Little too late on the TPP

“By completing negotiations for the TPP in secret the Government has failed to give New Zealanders the right to debate the merits or otherwise of this agreement. The bottom line for Labour is that New Zealand’s sovereign rights must be protected. Anything else is unacceptable.”
– Labour Leader Little

Any law changes relating to the TPP have to be passed by Parliament.

The question is : To allow Corporations to sue the New Zealand Government for compensation if a New Zealand law change disadvantages their market, does it require a law change through the New Zealand Parliament to enforce such an action will be heard through a specially set up independent international corporate law court (as purported to be in the TPP) and for New Zealand law and sovereignty to be set aside and the case go to the proposed international corporate court?
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July 24, 2015 8:08am
unitedtribes

At last we seem to have a deterrent for crime. The possibility of ending up at Mt Eden and getting sorted out good and proper. Funny that this deterrent has come from the prisoners themselves and not the usual PC crim huggers
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July 24, 2015 8:10am
Akaroa

Hmmm!

Pretty heavy stuff to kick off with here this morning!

(See preceding posts!!)

Guess i should have had another half-hour in bed before braving General Debate this morning!!
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July 24, 2015 8:12am
oldpark

At last a real Main Stream Media Journalist. Karl du Fresne writing in todays Dom Post, takes a critical look at a guy called Nicky Hager the raver,better known as the guy with a face on him like a busted grape. Karl questions Hager on his only make believe world that he is a “Journalist” and seeks exemption from Police investigations. Amongst many many facts and Karl telling it like it is , or was, regarding Hagers use of stolen personal emails and the use of them for financial gain. Du Fresne finishes the must read article, with the statement that,” Hager likes to claim the moral high ground, but the truth is that he was up to his eyeballs in the dirty politics he professes to despise”.
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July 24, 2015 8:13am
Maggy Wassilieff

@Akaroa

You prefer a hj posting with your toast & coffee, then?
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July 24, 2015 8:14am
Simon

The volume of Arctic sea ice increased by around a third after an unusually cool summer in 2013.
Researchers say the growth continued in 2014 and more than compensated for losses recorded in the three previous years.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-33594654

Climate like a lot of things is cyclical. As “unexplained” temperatures drop the State will become increasingly hysterical.

Look up the computer climate models of 10 or 15 yrs ago and the State wanted to plan society around these models. By now all that remains is fraud.
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July 24, 2015 8:18am
Albert_Ross

Yvette at 8:08, obviously I don’t know what the TPP says about investor-state disputes, but in other agreements, the arrangement is that cases go to an independent court only if the complainant can show that – having made every effort to resolve his concern in the host state – he’s not received a fair hearing and due process. I think it would be difficult for a foreign investor to show that with regard to the NZ legal system
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July 24, 2015 8:20am
publicwatchdog

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
How can Prime Minister John Key and Minister of Trade Tim Groser be trusted to act in the ‘national interest’ of New Zealand, the majority of New Zealanders and NZ businesses – when John Key is a shareholder in the Bank of America, and Tim Groser is ‘widely tipped’ to become the next NZ Ambassador to the USA?

Penny Bright
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July 24, 2015 8:20am
mandk

@ igm,
You are so learned, but it would be best if you were to check your grammar.
It was a noun, not an adjective!
🙂
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July 24, 2015 8:21am
SPC

igm, obfuscation.

Obfuscation is the obscuring of intended meaning in communication, making the message confusing, willfully ambiguous, or harder to understand.

To use the term obscufication does bring the word back to the meaning, to obscure.
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July 24, 2015 8:22am
Manolo

A nutter about to win UK Labour’s leadership: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3172430/A-new-low-Labour-leadership-race-Jeremy-Corbyn-hits-rival-s-attempt-accuse-non-action-child-abuse.html

Jeremy Corbyn today claimed the Labour leadership contest had reached a ‘new low’ after a fellow MP accused him of failing to act on child abuse allegations.
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July 24, 2015 8:22am
mjw

Serco shows the failure of the privatisation model. Private provision of state services is fine as long as times are good. But when times are bad, profits come before morality.

Private providers are not fit to shoulder the government’s moral responsibilities.
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July 24, 2015 8:23am
SPC

We gave up leverage in free trade by unilaterally ending tariffs and import barriers and all we have left to cede is soverignty over our law and government policy – and we do so.

Thus there is the future of government finances being drained to afford the promise (by tax paid subsidy) to keep Pharmac from raising drug costs – when the government signs deals to reduce their access to generics.

And all we get is some lower tariff improved access for dairy in a market of over-supply and low world prices. And that will be phased in over how many decades?

We should only sign if the commitments we make only apply once the tariffs on our exports finally come to an end – use our earlier unilateral end to tariffs on imports for some advantage at long last.
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July 24, 2015 8:26am
Griff

Yip Simon you can not even understand the most basic things
Like
Weather the day to day year to year fluctuation in temperature wind speed etc.
Climate what the average weather is over decades.

Climate is what we expect weather is what we get.
Mark Twain

Love the conspiracy theory.
the worlds scientific body’s are perpetrating a massive hoax started in 1894 when it was first proposed That if we add co2 to the atmosphere it will result in warming.
What a nutter.
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July 24, 2015 8:27am
stephieboy

This was posted yesterday here with Bill Haher on the infinitely more sane UK Conservative party ( relatively a lot more progressive )compared to the more insane anti progressive Republicans. Mind boggling !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMkerqSnjVU

Well worth a watch !
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July 24, 2015 8:28am
Awww C-mon

Nice to see Penny being slightly more conservative with her work count, it does make it easier to scroll past.

Can I suggest Penny that we would all get you point with an even shorter post

JK + USA = BAD

IMCO

PB
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July 24, 2015 8:28am
SPC

oldpark, of the two men only one has any credibility as a journalist, locally or internationally.
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July 24, 2015 8:33am
Manolo

@stephieboy: From your unimpeachable progressive perspective, would you make a UK Tory or Labour supporter? 🙂
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July 24, 2015 8:33am
Hugh Pavletich

BEWARE OF POLITICALLY DISTORTED PRICING … FOR ANYTHING …

Blaming foreigners for unaffordable housing … Wendell Cox … New Geography

http://www.newgeography.com/content/004997-blaming-foreigners-unaffordable-housing

In a number of Western world cities, there is rising concern about foreign housing purchases which may be driving up prices for local residents. Much of the attention is aimed at mainland Chinese buyers in metropolitan areas where housing is already pricier than elsewhere. The concern about housing affordability is legitimate. However, blaming foreigners misses the point, which is that the rising prices are to a large degree the result of urban containment policies implemented by governments … read more via hyperlink above …

… and on the same theme … avoiding politically distorted markets …

El-Erian: China no longer global growth locomotive – Yahoo Finance#

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/el-erian-china-no-longer-152413686.html#

Mohamed El-Erian said Thursday he believes China can engineer a soft landing to its recent stock market woes, but the country’s economic slowdown is raising a multitude of issues … view and read more via hyperlink above …

… with some (to be vaporized) funny money numbers out of China from Zerohedge …

China Spends 10% Of GDP On “All Bark, No Bite” Stock Bailout | Zero Hedge

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-23/china-spends-10-gdp-all-bark-no-bite-stock-bailout

… extract …

China has enlisted $800 billion worth of public and private money to prop up its wobbly stock markets, a Reuters analysis shows, but the impact of the unprecedented government-orchestrated rescue has so far been modest.

Public statements, media reports and market data reveal that Beijing unleashed 5 trillion yuan (515 billion pounds) in funds – equivalent to nearly 10 percent of China’s GDP in 2014 and greater than the 4 trillion yuan it committed in response to the global financial crisis – to calm a savage share sell-off…. read more via hyperlink above …

DOES CHINA WANT OPEN CAPITAL MARKETS ? …

There are economists with a sense of humour !

Michael Every, Rabobank’s Head of Financial Markets Research Asia, on central bankers, cavemen and associated matters … a brilliant panel discussion …

Investing in Chinese Stocks—投资大中华地区股市: Does China Want Open Capital Markets?

http://investinginchinesestocks.blogspot.co.nz/2015/07/does-china-want-open-capital-markets.html
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July 24, 2015 8:35am
Griff

The 5 telltale techniques of climate change denial
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/22/opinions/cook-techniques-climate-change-denial/

CNN)There is overwhelming scientific evidence that humans are causing global warming. Nevertheless, a small proportion of the population continues to deny the science. This can be problematic when the small number denying climate science includes half of the U.S. Senate.

How do you identify climate science denial, and how do you respond to it? To address denial properly, you need to understand the telltale techniques used to distort the science. It turns out all movements that deny a scientific consensus, whether it be the science of climate change, evolution or vaccination, share five characteristics in common:

1. Fake experts

Ninety-seven percent of climate scientists agree that humans are causing global warming. This has been found independently in a number of studies, including surveys of Earth scientists, analysis of public statements about climate change and analysis of peer-reviewed scientific papers. How might one cast doubt on the overwhelming scientific consensus? One technique is the use of fake experts.

We see this in online petitions such as the Global Warming Petition Project, which features more than 31,000 scientists claiming humans aren’t disrupting our climate. How can there be 97% consensus when 31,000 scientists disagree? It turns out 99.9% of the petition’s signatories aren’t climate scientists. They include computer scientists, mechanical engineers and medical scientists but few climate scientists. The Global Warming Petition Project is fake experts in bulk.

2. Logical fallacies

The reason why there’s a 97% consensus is because of the many lines of evidence that humans are causing global warming. Human fingerprints are being observed in heat escaping out to space, in the structure of the atmosphere and even in the changing seasons. Another denialist technique used to counter the weight of evidence is the logical fallacy.

The most common fallacious argument is that current climate change must be natural because climate has changed naturally in the past. This myth commits the logical fallacy of jumping to conclusions. It’s like finding a dead body with a knife sticking out of its back, and arguing that the person must have died of natural causes because humans have died of natural causes in the past. The premise does not lead to the conclusion.

3. Impossible expectations

While many lines of evidence inform our understanding of climate change, another source of understanding are climate models. These are computer simulations built from the fundamental laws of physics, and they have made many accurate predictions since the 1970s. Climate models have successfully predicted the loss of Arctic sea ice, sea level rise and the geographic pattern of global warming. However, one technique used to cast doubt on climate models is the tactic of impossible expectations.

Some people argue that climate models are unreliable if they don’t make perfect short-term predictions. However, a number of unpredictable influences such as ocean and solar cycles have short-term influences on climate. Over the long term, these effects average out, which is why climate models do so well at long-term predictions.

4. Cherry-picking

Signs of global warming have been observed all over our planet. Ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica are losing hundreds of billions of tons of ice every year. Global sea level is rising. Thousands of species are migrating toward cooler regions in response to warming. The ocean is building up four atomic bombs worth of heat every second. One way to avoid this overwhelming body of evidence is through the technique of cherry-picking.

For example, a persistent myth is that global warming stopped in recent decades. This is done by focusing on one slice of our climate system — the surface temperature record. Further, it relies on cherry-picking short time periods. This ignores the long-term trend and more importantly, ignores the many warming indicators telling us that our planet continues to build up heat.

5. Conspiracy theory

The global surface temperature record is constructed by teams across the world, each compiling their own independent record. These different efforts, each using their own methods, paint a consistent picture of global warming. Climate science deniers reject this coherent evidence with conspiracy theories.

The thousands of scientists across the world who develop these temperature records are regularly accused of faking their data to inflate the global warming trend. Of course, critics produce no evidence for a global conspiracy. In fact, a number of investigations into the scientists’ methodology has concluded that they conducted their research with robust integrity. How do the conspiracy theorists respond to each exoneration? By expanding their conspiracy theory to include the investigators!

The link between conspiratorial thinking and science denial has serious and practical consequences. Conspiracy theorists are immune to scientific evidence, as any evidence conflicting with their beliefs is considered part of a conspiracy. The implication is that the most effective approach is not changing the mind of the unchangeable. Rather a more fruitful approach is communicating the realities of climate change to the large, undecided majority who are open to scientific evidence. A crucial part of the puzzle is explaining the techniques of science denial. This has the powerful effect of inoculating people against the misinformation of climate science deniers.
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July 24, 2015 8:38am
Hugh Pavletich

Experts predict Auckland median house price will break $1m mark in 18 months – Business – NZ Herald News

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11485580

… extract …

Hugh Paveltich, the co-author of the annual Demographia international housing affordability survey, predicted the million mark would be hit by March 2017.

“It is sitting at about the $750,000 mark now and [rising] at about $3000 a week, or $150,000 a year, so it should be at about $900,000 12 months down the track. So you are looking at about a year and a half from now.”

“The whole thing is a complete circus and I curse the politicians for failing to articulate these serious issues with clarity.”
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July 24, 2015 8:38am
BeaB

Red Radio quickly shuts down a critical discussion about Labour so we can be given a description of the Melbourne Cup and how we need to put on a glove to pat it.
Lord forbid they upset their Lefty friends. Labour and unionists all given a free pass in interviews while Espiner rises to a shrill whine when he tries to attack Bill English.
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July 24, 2015 8:39am
publicwatchdog

How can Prime Minister John Key and Minister of Trade Tim Groser be trusted to act in the ‘national interest’ of New Zealand, the majority of New Zealanders and NZ businesses – when the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security is currently, of her own volition, conducting an inquiry into the use of the GCSB to spy on Tim Groser’s rivals in his bid for the leadership of the World Trade Organisation (WTO)?

How could Minister of Trade Tim Groser arguably NOT have known about the GCSB spying on his WTO leadership rivals?

What would have been the point of that exercise – without Tim Groser knowing the results of this (unlawful?) GCSB spying?

And who was the Minister responsible for the GCSB at the time of this (unlawful?) spying?

NZ Prime Minister John Key.

How can New Zealanders trust the judgment of Prime Minister John Key and Minister of Trade Tim Groser to act in New Zealand’s ‘national interest’, when, arguably the Inspector-General of Security and Intelligence doesn’t – or she wouldn’t be conducting this inquiry?

How can the actions of the Prime Minister John Key and Minister of Trade Tim Groser, possibly be excluded from this inquiry by the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security – given both were the ‘responsible’ Ministers?

Penny Bright
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July 24, 2015 8:42am
Maggy Wassilieff

@Griff

Is John Cook the sole source of your climate information?

Looks like he has been posing as other people
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/07/23/yes-why-does-john-cook-of-skepticalscience-and-the-97-have-to-use-identity-theft-in-his-research/

Now why would he do that?
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July 24, 2015 8:45am
CrazyIvan

Gov Rick Perry pwns The Trump
http://www.redstate.com/diary/Gov.RickPerry/2015/07/22/must-move-past-empty-calories-trumpism-return-conservatism/

“The White House has been occupied by giants. But from time to time it is sought by the small-minded – divisive figures propelled by anger, and appealing to the worst instincts in the human condition. In times of trouble, there are two types of leaders: repairers of the breach and sowers of discord. The sower of discord foments agitation, thrives on division, scapegoats certain elements of society, and offers empty platitudes and promises. He is without substance when one scratches below the surface. He offers a barking carnival act that can be best described as Trumpism: a toxic mix of demagoguery, mean-spiritedness and nonsense that will lead the Republican Party to perdition if pursued.”
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July 24, 2015 8:50am
Keeping Stock

How can Penny Bright be trusted to tell the truth when she hasn’t paid her Auckland Council rates for eight years, whilst still using the services other ratepayers pay for?. Oh yes; and she is widely tipped to get another butt-kicking at the polls next year.

Two can play your silly little game Penny.
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July 24, 2015 8:50am
marleybob

Now this guy should be the President of the US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaHe9PBnFdA
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July 24, 2015 8:53am
Paulus

Just listened to Josie Pagani on her views of what the Union Labour Party should do – no wonder she is excommunicated from her party membership.
Angry Andy would not accept her Labour views which were actually very sensible and accurate.
Guyon coud not shut her up so he cut the interview.
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July 24, 2015 8:55am
mikenmild

I know it’s a bit early to be thinking about Christmas, but this stuff makes a great gift for that mad scientist in your life. Check out the customer reviews.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000796XXM
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July 24, 2015 8:57am
Griff

Is John Cook the sole source of your climate information?

Way to go maggie is A Watts yours ?

No as has been pointed out many times to you and the other nuts

Every major scientific body on the planet is in on the hoax 😆

John Cook is an expert at climate communication………

John Cook is the Climate Communication Fellow for the Global Change Institute at the University of Queensland. He created the website Skeptical Science.com, which won the 2011 Australian Museum Eureka Prize for the Advancement of Climate Change Knowledge. Cook co-authored the college textbook “Climate Change Science: A Modern Synthesis” and the book “Climate Change Denial: Heads in the Sand.” In 2013, he published a paper analyzing the scientific consensus on climate change that gained worldwide media attention, being mentioned by President Barack Obama and U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry. It was awarded the best paper of 2013 published in Environmental Research Letters.

A Watts is a failed tv weather man.
He started his blog on the idea that the urban heat island effect was responsible for the warming.
He even wrote a paper after years of research.
Unfortunately his paper has never been published.
Because once a few basic errors are corrected the results actually show that the urban heat island is not responsible for the warming.
His stations that are unaffected by urban development show more warming.
If he was an honest man he would have published this corrected result.
He will not because his own research proves he was wrong.
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July 24, 2015 8:57am
publicwatchdog

Can Fonterra representatives see the text of the TPPA?

If not – how can Fonterra be sure that Minister of Trade Tim Groser (‘widely tipped’ to become the next NZ Ambassador to the USA) will act in the best interests of the NZ dairy industry?

I have asked both Fonterra and Minister of Trade Tim Groser if Fonterra representatives can see the TPPA text – have yet to receive a reply.

In my considered opinion – Minister of Trade Tim Groser is personally ‘conflicted’, and cannot be trusted to put the ‘national interest’ of New Zealand, the majority of New Zealanders or NZ businesses ahead of the future potential ‘baubles’ of the office of NZ Ambassador to the USA, for which he is ‘widely tipped’ to obtain.

Penny Bright

VERY concerned New Zealander.
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July 24, 2015 8:58am
Rich Prick

Pssst … Penny, we’re watching you.
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July 24, 2015 9:00am
waikatogirl

Serco shows the failure of the privatisation model. Private provision of state services is fine as long as times are good. But when times are bad, profits come before morality.
***
This behaviour is no doubt happening in all NZ prisons.

Last night a mother was complaining on TV news that her son had been beaten up by four prisoners. He had returned to his cell only to be confronted again by the same attackers. He ran and fell (or was helped) off the balcony. This all took at least 10 minutes. WHERE were the guards??? I can understand guards not seeing a quick attack but is was a sustained period of time. More cameras are obviously needed to cover the black spots.

If prisoners are holding fights in the cells then it sounds like the guards are leaving them to ‘entertain’ themselves for long periods of time. Maybe the guards all take their tea break at the same time so they can have a good gossip while mayhem ensues in the prisoners area!

No wonder gang members are happy to return to prison, it appears they are using prison environs as an extension of their gang club house, where prospects get blooded (or whatever the term is) for their entry to join the gang of their choice.

Bring back Judith. She said this morning on PH she enjoyed being Minister of Corrections when she held the post.
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July 24, 2015 9:00am
mikenmild

marleybob
Allen West is a confirmed nutjob. Oh, he’s a war criminal too.
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July 24, 2015 9:00am
Scott

stephieboy at 8:28 a.m. – thank you for posting that YouTube clip from Bill Maher. I only managed to watch about 1 minute of it. Obviously this gives an insight into the progressive mind. Mister Maher mocks creationists, American’s conservatives for being stupid and anyone who doesn’t believe in climate change.

Here it is – I think Bill Maher is wrong on everything that he has said. I am a creationist myself, I don’t believe in evolution, I don’t believe it has occurred and I don’t believe that anyone here has one single fact, one thing about evolution that is true. Whereas intelligent design, the appearance of design in the human body and the universe and biological organisms is a fact that we can see with our own eyes. It does mean that things were created by a designer, let’s call him God but hey sometimes you have to take the facts that are staring you in the face.

Secondly to be conservative is not to be stupid, as Margaret Thatcher once said “the facts of life are Conservative”.

Thirdly to disagree with climate change, which is a purely scientific question, is to participate in science. Maybe the planet is warming up, maybe it isn’t, but surely that’s something that reasonable people can disagree on?

I know some people find Bill Maher funny but I think he is the most mean minded, intolerant “comedian” that is working today. He doesn’t just disagree with Conservatives and Christians, he just thinks they are stupid and that they should just shut up.
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July 24, 2015 9:01am
Scott

Great article on why the Iran – US nuclear deal is a classic example of appeasement and can be compared with Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement of Hitler in 1938 –
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/421484/iran-deal-appeasement-nuclear
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July 24, 2015 9:05am
publicwatchdog

Like to provide ONE piece of evidence ‘Keeping Stock’ which proves I have not been ‘truthful’?

Penny Bright

Anti – corruption WHISTLE-BLOWER
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July 24, 2015 9:06am
mikenmild

Scott
I guess it’s nice that you can reject science when it provides evidence that conflicts with your personal beliefs. While that puts you firmly in the fringe, the rest of us will just go on with accepting rational explanations for what is happening in the world.
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July 24, 2015 9:08am
Griff

Thirdly to disagree with climate change, which is a purely scientific question, is to participate in science. Maybe the planet is warming up, maybe it isn’t, but surely that’s something that reasonable people can disagree on

The planet is warming. This is a fact.
It is due to C02 This is as near as a fact as you get in science.
The debate in science is non existent.
To disagree you must publish your ideas in peer reviewed journals for other scientist to examine.
No one does.
This makes your disagreement as valid as that of the flat earth society.
Something to be laughed at.
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July 24, 2015 9:09am
Yvette

How the hell can we trust Prime Minister John Key to act in the interests of New Zealand when he is a shareholder in ANZ, an Australian bank?
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July 24, 2015 9:09am
mikenmild

Scott
I only have one objection to the batshit-crazy Victor Hanson Davis’s article comparing the Iran nuclear deal with 1930s appeasement: he failed to demonstrate how the two situations were similar in any way. Apart from that, the article was fine.
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July 24, 2015 9:13am
Griff

Unholy scientists losing their priests

The “declining religiosity” of scientists working on the summer ice of Antarctica has ended a long-standing relationship with New Zealand priests.

For 57 years, priests from the Catholic Diocese of Christchurch’s Antarctic Chaplaincy Programme have provided religious services, counselling and individual support for as many as 2000 people stationed at McMurdo Station, the Amundsen-Scott South Pole stations and Scott Base.

But attendance at the Chapel of the Snows at McMurdo Station and the number of residents wanting the services of the chaplains have been steadily declining.

Now, the National Science Foundation (NSF), which manages the US Antarctic Programme, says it can no longer support the priests’ services.
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July 24, 2015 9:13am
kowtow

mjw

Serco. Incarceration is not a proper function of the private sector ,so I privatisation of prisons.

However , if anyone thinks that this shit did not go on under the public model then they are fools.

Gower showed his cards very clearly on TV3 news last night ,and while holding the govt to account is the proper role of the media, he has shown the current TV3 campaign on Serco is not about the rights of prisoners but is actually anti govt activism.

unitedtribes

Criminals are not getting a deterent when sent to prison. Clearly gangs carry on their cowardly ,unlawful behaviour and pick on weaker prisoners. gang members must consider going to gang run prisons a bit of a doddle.
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July 24, 2015 9:15am
stephieboy

Manolo (16,686 comments) says:
July 24th, 2015 at 8:33 am
@stephieboy: From your unimpeachable progressive perspective, would you make a UK Tory or Labour supporter? 🙂

A Tory supporter but definitely not your moonbat Republican nor the obviously defunct NZ Conservatives !
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July 24, 2015 9:16am
Maggy Wassilieff

@Griff

Well of course watts up isn’t my sole source of up-to-date exposes of climate warmism…..

but here you can read the original… about John Cook’s posing as a Czech Physicist.. Lubos Motl
http://motls.blogspot.co.nz/2015/07/identity-theft-thief-of-lubosmotl-turns.html
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July 24, 2015 9:16am
Scott

Mikenmild – I think there are a lot of parallels between the Iran nuclear deal and the appeasement of Hitler in 1938. Both Iran and Hitler hate the Jews and want to kill them. That is a defining principle of both regimes.
In both cases you have Western powers that at all costs want to avoid war.
In both cases you have Western leaders, Obama today and Neville Chamberlain in 1938, who think that by their reasonableness they can appease the aggressor. In both cases they believe the aggressive nation is basically reasonable.
So I think the basic parallel is that of appeasement. Chamberlain in 1938 believe that Hitler could be appeased and once Hitler’s reasonable demands were met then war would be averted. Obama in 2015 believes that Iran can be appeased and by taking the sanctions off and welcoming meaning Iran back into the community of nations then it will give up its plans for a nuclear bomb.
We know that Neville Chamberlain was wrong and many are convinced that Obama is equally wrong. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, if Iran gives up its nuclear programs in its sponsorship of terrorism throughout the region then doves such as yourself are correct.
If however Iran with the sanctions removed works feverishly to develop a nuclear bomb and strives even harder to dominate the region through terrorism and violence then the Hawks will be shown to be right.
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July 24, 2015 9:20am
G152

When will the union controlled prisons have to account for the fighting,
riots, gang controlled wings and injuries occurring in their domains ?
Good enough or the private prison then it should be okay for all
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July 24, 2015 9:20am
publicwatchdog

The 79th Conference of the NZ National Party is being held this weekend at the Auckland Sky City Convention Centre.

NZ Prime Minister / Leader of the National Party / shareholder in the Bank of America – John Key – will be giving his ‘KEY note’ address at noon, Sunday 26 July 2015.

Are there any DECENT members of the National Party – who will stand up to be counted for the ‘national interest’ of New Zealand, the majority of New Zealanders and NZ businesses, and tell Prime Minister John Key and Minister of Trade Tim Groser to WALK AWAY from the TPPA?

Penny Bright
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July 24, 2015 9:20am
Griff

Well of course watts up isn’t my sole source of up-to-date exposes of climate warmism…..

Say it all really maggy
Science = warmism The sciences says we have a problem.
Maggy=Anti science nutter who would rather trust an accountant than the worlds met services.
Who gets her risk evaluations from the manager of the first bank to go bust in England for over a century.
😆
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July 24, 2015 9:22am
Scott

Griff – saying climate change is a fact doesn’t make it so. In fact the scientific method is about the ability of a theory to be falsified. Climate change or global warming predicts that the planet will be getting warmer and warmer due to the effect of greenhouse gases. Now that may or may not be correct, but I don’t see any point in making a religion out of it?
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July 24, 2015 9:22am
Manolo

Addled Griff is on a high today, pun intended. The Jamaican Gold ought to be good.
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July 24, 2015 9:26am
James Stephenson

shareholder in the Bank of America

You know that this is just a banking company, like say HSBC, and not an American equivalent of the Bank of England?

I guess “John Key still owns the shares he got as part of his Merrill Lynch remuneration” (BoA subsequently aquired ML) doesn’t really fly as an attempted smear though…
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July 24, 2015 9:26am
kowtow

SPC.

TPPA.

Our permanent political class ,this time Labour led,did the same thing to secure Rugby world cup rights. Some commentary at the time but not much. Again a betrayal of citizens rights to large corporations.

“In some ways, the biggest stakeholder or sponsor for this tournament is the taxpayer, who is footing the major portion of the costs of the Rugby World Cup 2011.”

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/business/177013/lawyer-questions-rwc-clean-zone
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July 24, 2015 9:27am
mikenmild

Scott, only religious people will make a religion out of scientific issues – like believing the world was created because it suits their religious narrative rather than conforming to the scientific evidence
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July 24, 2015 9:29am
RightNow

Well well, John Cook at SS has been posting under the name of Lubos Motl in forums…
Here he is admitting it in his own words…

2011-09-25 15:36:48 Lubos Motl username
John Cook

john@skepticalscience…
123.211.208.191
Was waiting for someone to notice and freak out. I still need a handful of comments for each condition of our blogging experiment so I created a new user account, partly so it’s not confusing having comments from the “author” of the blog posts and secondly, having a Lubos comment might’ve got some attention and attracted a few SkSers into the threads (that idea didn’t pan out at all). Anyway, while I have your attention, the links for the 4 conditions are:

Warmist blog post, all warmist comments
Warmist blog post, all skeptic comments
Skeptic blog post, all warmist comments
Skeptic blog post, all skeptic comments
All I need is a few more comments in each thread, to get it up to 10 comments each, so please go in there and post a strongly pro-warmist or pro-skeptic comment to help with our experiment. Thanks!

It’s funny how some nutters quote SS (and just as laughably the the same nutters also seem to think rationalwiki is some sort of authority too ha) as being reliable, even though it is run by this admitted fraud.
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July 24, 2015 9:31am
Griff

Scott: fact: The planet is warming:
This is due to CO2. This conclusion is based on physical measurement of the property’s of absorption spectra of CO2.https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=absorption+spectra&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=WV2xVdXsCoa_mwWBuobACw
The rise in temperature due to increasing CO2 has been predicted for over a century.

Science is not a religion.
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July 24, 2015 9:33am
stephieboy

Scott,

You are a creationists ? Fine !, but I don’t propose to get into a debate on the issue except to leave you and others the 15 points in favour of Evolution vs Creationism,

15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense

Opponents of evolution want to make a place for creationism by tearing down real science, but their arguments don’t hold up

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/15-answers-to-creationist/

Yes I guess Bill Maher might seem a tad arrogant and intolerant himself ,but I think we can appreciate that he is certainly no worse than Right Wing Pundits at e.g Fox News , One America News Network nor for that matter Joseph Farah at WND etc
And he spices it with a bit of lampooning !
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July 24, 2015 9:36am
Scott

No mikenmild I believe the world was created because that’s where the evidence leads me. After 6 months of study I came to the conclusion that evolution is not true, it has not occurred. Both sides of the argument were acceptable to me, God could use evolution over millions of years or he could use creation over 6 days.

But if you are interested then by all means read some creationist literature, read some intelligent design literature and you will find that they have great arguments. Maybe your mind might be changed if you looked at both sides of the evidence?
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July 24, 2015 9:38am
Scott

Stephieboy – I love Fox News and they are way nicer and more interesting to watch than Bill Maher. Bill O’Reilly, Anne Coulter – they are awesome!
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July 24, 2015 9:40am
Griff

so please go in there and post a strongly pro-warmist or pro-skeptic comment to help with our experiment. Thanks!

Gee cooks examining your nut whack belief system by seeding your little blogs and examining the resulting wingnut behavior. He has been involved in a few published studies now on your conspiracy idealization.
How does it feel to be a physc case?
😆

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gmu09hcmZY
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July 24, 2015 9:40am
mikenmild

Scott
That’s nice, except for the inconvenient fact that there is no evidence that the universe was created. I am familiar with creationist literature, thank you, but I don’t find it convincing.
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July 24, 2015 9:40am
stephieboy

Scott, you may like to respond to some the 15 points raised in the Scientific American article i’ve just posted ?

Try this one :

6. If humans descended from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

This surprisingly common argument reflects several levels of ignorance about evolution. The first mistake is that evolution does not teach that humans descended from monkeys; it states that both have a common ancestor.

The deeper error is that this objection is tantamount to asking, “If children descended from adults, why are there still adults?” New species evolve by splintering off from established ones, when populations of organisms become isolated from the main branch of their family and acquire sufficient differences to remain forever distinct. The parent species may survive indefinitely thereafter, or it may become extinct.
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July 24, 2015 9:41am
Manolo

On the subject of Creationism, as much as it pains me to say it, stephieboy has the upper hand over Scott.
Science triumphs over myth.
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July 24, 2015 9:42am
RightNow

Ha griff I knew you’d defend the fraud. Thanks for playing.
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July 24, 2015 9:43am
Scott

Manolo – have you read any creationist literature? Have you studied intelligent design? Have you been exposed to the many deficiencies in evolutionary theory and practice?
I actually think when people open mindedly read both sides of the issue then the facts are on the side of the creationist theory of the world and how it began.
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July 24, 2015 9:46am
mikenmild

reasonable people will have difficulty believing that the world is getting warmer

Um, no they won’t, as the actual temperature records are publicly available and widely reported. Only the wilfully ignorant would have trouble accepting that.
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July 24, 2015 9:47am
stephieboy

Manolo, unbleivable with your closed mind that you subscribe to Evolution !

Surely it must be with some provisos ?
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July 24, 2015 9:48am
SPC

Scott, as you say, God could have used evolution or could have used 6 days.

But clearly God did not use 6 earth day long periods of time.

This why those who challenge evolution require evolution directed by God – called God fingerprint ID (intelligent design).

The only problem is no one has identified the fingerprint.

In the end the faithful of reason are left with God as the source of the energy for physical habitat life universe existence. And faith in God as the source of continuing life beyond this confine.

As to why there is no evidence of God to be found, possible explanations – to keep faith in accord with free will. Evidence of God requires obedience, and obedience in the absence of God results in con men who claim to act for God. Such are beasts.
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July 24, 2015 9:57am
Maggy Wassilieff

@Griff

Gee cooks examining your nut whack belief system by seeding your little blogs and examining the resulting wingnut behavior.

Bet that little experiment passed his University’s ethics committee with flying colours.

But no need to play little games on Kiwiblog by posing as other people…..this political blog will be well troweled over in the decades to come by some archivist geekie……… some of us may be proven right and some may be proven wrong.
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July 24, 2015 10:00am
wiseowl

I have an idea.
Now that a new planet has been discovered and our worlds population is growing exponentially ,all those extras spilling out of shithole countries can hitch a ride on the next spacecraft to the new planet.

Start again.
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July 24, 2015 10:01am
Manolo

@Scott: I have read about evolution and creationism for a very long time.
@stephieboy: Darwin’s theory is unassailable and proven. Science never lies, but inches forward.
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July 24, 2015 10:01am
Griff

Right now
it always gives me a good laugh when you emerge from the shadows.
Hows it feel when you look back and think about all the times you argued no warming and I pointed out you are cherry picking a elnino and when we next had a strong one the temperatures would skyrocket?
As they have.
Makes you look an arse.
As is trying to get at cook when he is doing a psychiatric experiment on your nutty conspiracy idealization .
When the research gets published it will be great fun to show it to you all.
Your mental problems are so funny.
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July 24, 2015 10:04am
kowtow

Did Adam have a belly button?

Anyway on a more serious note, those cavemen have a lot to answer for causing global warming all those years ago.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3172367/Did-global-warming-kill-mammoths-Rapid-climate-change-doomed-Ice-Age-giants-humans-study-suggests.html
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July 24, 2015 10:07am
Manolo

KB under attack?
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July 24, 2015 11:05am
Alan Wilkinson

Ok. who screwed up this website security for an hour?
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July 24, 2015 11:19am
Manolo

Trump’s at it again: http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/23/donald-trump-shouts-down-msnbcs-jose-diaz-balart-during-border-presser-video/

GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump batted down and dismissed questioning from MSNBC host Jose Diaz-Balart Thursday during a press conference in Laredo, TX at the U.S./Mexico border.

Diaz-Balart began asking Trump about his comments from his kickoff announcement address, but soon into his question, the real estate mogul began railing against the media for taking his points out of context.
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July 24, 2015 11:26am
Alan Wilkinson

I’m presuming the site outages today were another major DDOS attack?
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July 24, 2015 1:34pm
SPC

Global warming due to greenhouse effect.

1. It’s real.

But so is the impact of the sun spot cycle on temperature.

There was the so called Maunder minimum – decades of low sun spot activity on the sun reduced temps by 1 degree – for decades – a mini ice age in the 17thC. And we are coming up to a period of low sunspot activity of that kind in the 2030’s. Whether it lasts for decades this time we cannot be sure, but if it does that could be another 1 degree impact. Or would be if temp was not rising from greenhouse effect.

This complicates accurate forecasting no end.

2. The real issue is accurate forecasting of the rate of increase from greenhouse effect and the amount of total increase. This is where debate is credible, real and necessary.

Till now the only real confusion was relative weight to the regular rise and fall of sunspot activity over the 22 year cycle and eliminating the peak el nino years.

“The only two super (or very strong) El Ninos occurred in 1982-83 and 1997-98.”

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11485248

Some people erroneously use the 1998 temp high as proof there is no global warming. This is wrong, that temps have reached this peak a few times since – despite no el nino effect and when solar activity was in the decline actually proves that greenhouse impact is real.
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July 24, 2015 1:34pm
Manolo

Welcome home, Messiah: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/23/obama-kenya-visit-political-minefield

It will be Obama’s first visit to the land of his father as US president and a far cry from a 1988 trip when his luggage got lost. He will be greeted by the stars and stripes flying all over the capital, Nairobi, and giant billboards and paintings bearing his face with slogans such as “Welcome home”.
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July 24, 2015 1:44pm
Scott

Sorry guys, I have brilliantly answered all your questions about global warming and creationism but everything has been lost as the site has kept crashing.
IIhate it whenwhen that happens
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July 24, 2015 1:56pm
Manolo

@Scott: I think God crashed KB to prevent us from reading your brilliant answers.
After all, everybody, bar the ignorant, knows Earth is only 4,300 years old and the universe a tad older. 🙂
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July 24, 2015 2:00pm
Biscuit

Penny/

Who is likelier to do the more damage to the average New Zealander:

1. Tim Groser as our next Ambassador to the USofA
or
2. Phil Goff miscontrolling Auckland (i.e. spending ratesmoney you won’t pay) the same way Len Brown is doing
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July 24, 2015 2:04pm
SGA

@Scott
Try writing your brilliant answers on a text editor, and then cut’n’paste. That way if the website misbehaves all won’t be lost 🙂
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July 24, 2015 2:05pm
RightNow

griff:
“Hows it feel when you look back and think about all the times you argued no warming and I pointed out you are cherry picking a elnino and when we next had a strong one the temperatures would skyrocket?”
Hilarious, since
1) I argue there is warming, just not at anywhere near the rate predicted by the models, and the ECS is likely to be around 1.3c
2) you’re saying that natural variation is the cause of temperature rises. Haaa haa ha ha ha

“As is trying to get at cook when he is doing a psychiatric experiment on your nutty conspiracy idealization” .

I guess when you subscribe to the Peter Gleick school of ethics then outright fraud easily becomes an accepted part of your methodology… “true or not who cares” as you like to say eh? What a Gergis.

“When the research gets published it will be great fun to show it to you all.”
Perhaps the circle jerk you belong to haven’t caught up with the fact that Cook and Lew’s work is already cause for great laughter.

“Your mental problems are so funny.”
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July 24, 2015 2:10pm
Biscuit

I feel your pain, Scott (1.56pm)…

There should be an Eleventh Commandment: Putteth not your trust in technology. Jesus ‘saves’ … and you should too.
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July 24, 2015 2:12pm
Gulag1917

Trump is Correct, John McCain is NOT A Hero
http://mantalkblog.com/home/trump-is-correct-john-mccain-is-not-a-hero/
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July 24, 2015 2:21pm
Manolo

Our own EAD knows this is wrong, of course: http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/19/no-doomsday-on-sps-cards-chart.html

Despite doomsayers’ predictions that the S&P 500 index will collapse, the charts still don’t support those warnings.

After the S&P index rallied 14.5% in 2014, many analysts worried about a drop, but the chart pattern didn’t support that conclusion then and now, six months later, chart patterns aren’t supporting new disaster warnings of an imminent collapse of the S&P, the Dow and the Nasdaq.
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July 24, 2015 2:35pm
kowtow

Any ‘foreign fighters’ (western born Muslims) involved in any way with IS must be banned from ever returning to the west.

Preferably they get killed there .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3172640/Thrown-roof-stoned-death-crime-gay-Two-men-subjected-ISIS-brutal-brand-justice-fanatics-latest-horrific-public-execution.html
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July 24, 2015 2:43pm
Shawn Herles

Scott,

A heads up with regards to mikenmild. You are wasting your time, as mikey has no intentions of either debating you seriously or considering any pov from the Right. Mikey is a liberal-lefty with his head firmly up the ass of whatever useless twit is currently running the Labour Party. Not only is mike incapable of rational thought, as proven by his batshit crazy idea that allowing men wearing dresses and fake boobs into the US military is a sign of progress, he is incapable of independent thinking or of allowing anything into his wee mind that is not New Left political correctness.

He will not consider any information or web site that is conservative or right wing, of any sort whatsoever, and he has a few pre-scripted responses to any right wing source, all of which cover up the truth that he never bothers to read or consider the actual argument. Thus his claim about VDH being crazy is just a cover for the fact that he did not even bother to read it, and the fact that being on the Right to any degree at all makes a person crazy in mikey’s little world.

In short, he’s a Liberal troll, and not worth your time.
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July 24, 2015 2:53pm
Scott Chris

It’s funny how some nutters quote SS

1/ Which part of Skeptical Science is nutty?
2/ What’s wrong with posting on forums using a pseudonym RightNow?
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July 24, 2015 2:56pm
graphite

Griff (10,298 comments) says:
July 24th, 2015 at 8:38 am
The 5 telltale techniques of climate change denial

++++++++++++++

Just guessing here — and this is based on reading just a couple of paragraphs — but I’ll wager a week’s pay that Griff’s whole posting has been cut and pasted from an alarmist site.

Spelling, capitalisation and punctuation all seem to be correct and there’s a distinct absence of bad language.

Here’s a tip, Griff: Chuck in a “fuckwit” or two, lay the abuse on with a trowel, forget about capital letters and stuff up the spelling. You might fool a couple of people into thinking you’ve had an original thought.
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July 24, 2015 2:57pm
kowtow

Man made global warming , ice free Arctic? Nope.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/a_second_ship_of_fools/
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July 24, 2015 2:59pm
AgentBallSack

More bullshit liberalism Prisoners should be allowed to vote The thing is you give up your fucking rights when you decide to offend against the rights of the rest of us.
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July 24, 2015 2:59pm
EAD

@ Manolo 2.35pm,

The stock market is not the economy. The stock market can be and is manipulated to rise and fall by the international bankers by simply cheapening the price of money which is what our own Central Bank did the other day.

The one thing the international bankers can’t control is real trade which has just suffered it’s steepest and longest decline since the Financial Crisis:
http://cnafinance.com/copper-china-and-world-trade-are-all-screaming-that-the-next-economic-crisis-is-here/4902

Also check what is happening to the price of copper which is another harbinger of what is round the corner:
http://www.theage.com.au/business/mining-and-resources/copper-melts-to-sixyear-low-and-goldman-sees-another-15pc-drop-20150723-gijett.html

But by all means, keep reading the controlled MSM and judging the health of an economy by the sharemarket and keep living in a bankster induced fantasy land.
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July 24, 2015 3:00pm
RightNow

Scott Chris:

“1/ Which part of Skeptical Science is nutty?”
Well even though that’s not exactly what I said I would have to say I think the bit where they dress up in Nazi SS uniforms certainly strikes me as nutty, to be complimentary. Posting fake comments under someone else’s identity… you tell me

“2/ What’s wrong with posting on forums using a pseudonym RightNow?”
Depends on the forum rules I guess, like here on Kiwiblog it’s absolutely above board. However there is a difference between that and what Cook did by pretending to be Motl and posting as him. Can you see that?
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July 24, 2015 3:16pm
Scott Chris

Rightnow, I’d suggest Cook might have posted using a pseudonym because he wanted his argument to be heard, not his reputation.
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July 24, 2015 3:22pm
Shawn Herles

Quinnipiac poll: Hillary’s popularity crumbles in three swing states, now trails three top Republicans.

http://hotair.com/archives/2015/07/22/quinnipiac-poll-hillarys-popularity-crumbles-in-three-swing-states-now-trails-three-top-republicans/
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July 24, 2015 3:34pm
dime

“Newstalk once again running a Labour Party Political Broadcast this morning”

IGM – this morning i listened to Zb and thought to myself “labours news room division based at ZB..”

They are onto a fucking winner here – keep trying to get us to feel bad for shit heads in jail.

their lead story was – the company who runs Mt Eden is facing issues at prisons in aussie and the UK. im pretty sure they have run this exact same story every 6 months since the company started running mt eden.

their credibility is worse than the heralds.

how do MH, LS and LW put up with the fucking mongs?
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July 24, 2015 3:40pm

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