General Debate 20 July 2015

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igm

Unelected Gutless Little Andy now on 8% . . . the fairy and its rainbows circling!
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July 20, 2015 8:06am
stephieboy

Shawn Herles and Manolo, etc Donald speaks “triumphantly “about his non Vietnam service while condemning Mc Cain’s actual Vietnam service causing considerable embarrassment among the GOP hierarchy and rank and file ,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-belittles-mccains-war-service-sparking-stern-republican-backlash/2015/07/18/e9f814c6-2d7e-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html

and parodied here ,

Trump Says He Heroically Avoided Capture in Vietnam by Staying in U.S.

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/trump-says-he-heroically-avoided-capture-in-vietnam-by-staying-in-u-s?intcid=mod-latest
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July 20, 2015 8:10am
G152

Trump was a draft dodger.
Anything he says about servicemen can be taken with a grain of salt
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July 20, 2015 8:21am
stephieboy

G152, and war service in e.g the Middle East ?

Trump also shows how wealth and influence can be important factors in avoiding the draft and war service !.
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July 20, 2015 8:24am
Simon

“After September of this year, the Earth will be entering its 22nd year without statistically significant warming trend, according to satellite-derived temperature data.”

http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/17/satellites-earth-is-nearly-in-its-21st-year-without-global-warming/

NZ has a climate change department. The Green’s twin policy ideas are peak oil & global warming.

Internationally governments are fast running out of other people’s money. All there is is debt and taxation. The State now pays fake scientists to produce fake findings about global warming to justify carbon tax.

That’s all there is left, just the fraud.
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July 20, 2015 8:27am
stephieboy

Simon , the claim there has been no warming in the troposphere are rejected here,

” John Christy and Roy Spencer of the University of Alabama published a series of papers starting about 1990 that implied the troposphere was warming at a much slower rate than the surface temperature record and climate models indicated Spencer and Christy (1992). One early version of their data even showed a cooling trend (Christy et al. 1995).

Several groups of scientists began looking closely at this discrepancy. With so many other pieces of evidence indicating warming, it seemed unlikely that the troposphere would not be warming. Errors were discovered in the methods the UAH group used to adjust the data.

To understand what was wrong: The satellites must pass over the same spot on Earth at the same time each day to get a temperature average. In reality the time the satellite passes drifts slightly as the orbit slowly decays. To compensate for this and other orbital changes a series of adjustments must be applied to the data….”

https://www.skepticalscience.com/satellite-measurements-warming-troposphere.htm
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July 20, 2015 8:31am
mikenmild

“After September of this year, the Earth will be entering its 22nd year without statistically significant warming trend, according to satellite-derived temperature data.”

Or, you could read about the actual science:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/no-warming-in-16-years.htm
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July 20, 2015 8:31am
Odakyu-sen

Simon,

“The State now pays fake scientists to produce fake findings about global warming to justify carbon tax.”

Governments should let businessmen find ways to make the pie bigger, rather than waste resources trying to cut the pie up into more slices.

Remember, the more slices there are, the more of the pie you lose as crumbs.
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July 20, 2015 8:32am
Ed Snack

Links to Skepticalscience as some sort of proof ! ROTFLMAO.
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July 20, 2015 8:43am
mikenmild

Just a simple rebuttal, Ed. If you want to trust stuff from the Daily Caller then I guess you can sit back and feel good about yourself. No one else will.
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July 20, 2015 8:45am
publicwatchdog

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
FYI Kiwibloggers

20 July 2015

MEDIA Alert! TPPA – Walk Away!

Protest outside Auckland Uni – Monday 20 July 2015 1-5pm

WHEN: Monday 20 July
TIME: 1 -5 PM
WHERE: Symonds St / Grafton Rd intersection – directly outside Auckland Uni.
WHY? Because Auckland students are back and there are THOUSANDS of them!

The FOCUS – NZ PM John Key is a shareholder in the Bank of America!

(These Bank of America shares are NOT in a ‘blind trust’!)

Whose ‘national interest’ is PM John Key serving?

Is John Key working for US or the U$??

READ IT FOR YOURSELF:

http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/mpp/mps/fin-interests/00CLOOCMPPFinInterests20151/register-of-pecuniary-and-other-specified-interests-of

“Register of Pecuniary and Other Specified Interests of Members of Parliament:
Summary of annual returns as at 31 January 2015

(Page 29)

Rt Hon John Key (National, Helensville)

2 Other companies and business entities

Little Nell – property investment (Aspen, Colorado)

Bank of America – banking ..”

A LOT of people don’t know this, and it is, in my view, as an anti-corruption ‘Public Watchdog’ an arguably significant corrupt ‘conflict of interest’.

Especially when the TPPA is closely tied together with TISA (Trade In Services Agreement), of which New Zealand is a member State, which has a particularly ‘scary’, secret agenda – “… because it aims to extend the model of liberalised and deregulated financial markets that brought us the global financial crisis…”

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11280883

(NZ Herald 25 June 2014)

“The story of the past week in terms of the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) agreement was not Prime Minister John Key’s visit to the White House.

The more startling news is that our Government, with almost 50 other countries, is negotiating another secret deal in the shadows of the World Trade Organisation.

They are calling to negotiate a Trade in Services Agreement (Tisa).

It is part of a troika: along with the TPP and the deal the US is negotiating with the European Union, it aims to create a new set of global rules that are designed exclusively to serve commercial interests.

This is no exaggeration. Last week US corporates held a launch for what they call Team Tisa. The co-chairs are Citigroup, Liberty Mutual, IBM, MetLife, UPS and Walmart.

Leading members of Congress and the US Trade Representative were invited to speak.

If we thought the TPP was secretive – background documents remain secret for four years after any deal is done – Tisa proponents want to keep their documents secret for five years.

They aim to create an unrestricted global market for services, just as TPP is aimed at the Asia-Pacific. That means locking open the door to foreign corporations that dominate the world’s media, IT, finance, tourism, transport, healthcare, education sectors and more.

They also want to make light-handed regulation the global norm. A standstill rule aims to freeze the existing level of regulation as the new bottom line.

What Wikileaks posted was the draft chapter on financial services. We can assume it will be very similar to the TPP’s financial services chapter.

This is especially scary, because it aims to extend the model of liberalised and deregulated financial markets that brought us the global financial crisis…”

Remember Prime Minister John Key’s background?

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/minister/biography/john-key

“….He was born in Auckland, New Zealand but moved to Christchurch, New Zealand when he was a child. He was educated at Burnside High School in Christchurch and then gained a Bachelor of Commerce from the University of Canterbury.

Mr Key launched his investment banking career in New Zealand in the mid-1980s.

After 10 years in the New Zealand market he headed offshore, working in Singapore, London, and Sydney for US investment banking firm Merrill Lynch.

During that time he was in charge of a number of business units, including global foreign exchange and European bond and derivative trading.

In 1999, he was invited to join the Foreign Exchange Committee of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and on two occasions undertook management studies at Harvard University in Boston.

In 2001, he headed back to New Zealand to fulfil a long held ambition to stand for Parliament for the National Party. He first won the Helensville seat in 2002. Mr Key quickly rose through the ranks and was elected leader of the National Party on 27 November 2006. …”

______________________________________________________

How ‘dodgy’ are derivatives?

Seems dairy derivatives are doing well – pity about the real thing?

https://www.nzx.com/markets/NZSX/securities/NZX/analysis

“Soft commodities

NZX’s Dairy Derivatives business continued its rapid growth trajectory in 2014 with the number of lots traded up 175% to 101,010.

In recognition of the continued efforts to grow market participation and confidence, in September 2014 NZX’s Dairy Futures Market won Best New Agricultural Contract at the Futures & Options World (FOW) Awards for Asia.

NZX CEO Tim Bennett commented: “Once they are established and liquid, derivatives markets are a very high revenue, low marginal cost businesses, generating significant upside over sustained periods.

While development takes time, the long-term payback far exceeds the initial investment.

We still have a long way to go.

Mature derivatives contracts notionally trade a multiple of the related underlying commodity and NZX dairy derivatives only constitute notional trade of around 4% of the related physical market, highlighting the future potential.”

Building on its success in milk powders, NZX launched a butter futures contract in December 2014, a global risk management tool that trades off the underlying price for unsalted butter on the GlobalDairyTrade auction platform. ..”

_____________________________________________________________

Is John Key working for the New Zealand people, New Zealand business – or foreign bankers?
_________________________________________________________

Time is short.

TPPA: Chief Negotiators meet 24 -27 July
TPPA: Ministers 28 – 31 July
Parliament sits Tues 21 July.

National are dropping in the polls…..

In my view – it was FOCUSED and timely protest vs John Key in the 2 days before the Northland by-election that helped National lose that seat.
______________________________________________________________

This is a video clip of the recent protest to that was held outside the office of Minister of Trade Time Groser on Thursday 16 July 2015.

(You Tube clip – 5 minutes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5ZNW_ahOME&feature=youtu.be

TPPA – WALK AWAY!

Penny Bright
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July 20, 2015 8:45am
stephieboy

Ed Snack , and what are is the Daily Caller’s scientific credentials ?,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Caller

ROTFLMAO.?!?!
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July 20, 2015 8:53am
Nostradamus

Penny: please do us a favour and piss off.
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July 20, 2015 8:53am
Manolo

Miss Dim: please do us a million favours and piss off.
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July 20, 2015 8:55am
Ashley Schaeffer

First time visitor to Armageddon expo in Wellington this weekend. Of all the weird and wonderful sights that greeted my eyes, none was more unexpected than seeing the looney Greens stall at the entrance. Seriously, take your politics somewhere else. Geek culture is becoming mainstream and doesn’t need a setback like being associated with flakes and commies. The only political game I want to see at Armageddon is A Game of Thrones.

P.S. The Lannisters send their regards.
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July 20, 2015 8:57am
Griff

Ed often quotes the lord monckton on climate science .
What a bug eyed loon
Both Ed and the lord .

Same goes for the space cadet Simon.
Live up in the clouds do you Simon?
On planet earth were most of us dwell.
last year was hottest on record.
This year is warmer so far.
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July 20, 2015 9:00am
Ed Snack

Mikenmild, and I’ve mentioned “The Daily Caller” just when ? John Cook is a proven liar and fabulist with a tenuous grasp on science and reality at the best of times.

And it’s time for your meds Griff, I have never quoted Monckton, you, sir, are another known liar and fabulist, ready to spread falsehood and propaganda.
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July 20, 2015 9:00am
Griff

Prove it ed.
Gonna quote some more of the lords statistics are we ?
rofl
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July 20, 2015 9:02am
kowtow

Ashley

“Geek culture is becoming mainstream and doesn’t need a setback like….’

or greek culture is becoming mainstream and doesn’t need a setback like having to pay your own way in the world when you can get the germans to do it for you.
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July 20, 2015 9:07am
Griff

You dont link to your rubbish because it exposes your stupidity.
Your so called rebuttal of the 97% was directly from lord loony tune.
Totally ignoring the papers other conclusion.
The scientists rated their own work as more agreeing with the consensus than cook et al did.
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July 20, 2015 9:07am
Lucia Maria

Greens want to ban plastic shopping bags – recycling not enough : Greens criticise ‘half measure’ on plastic bags

Green Party waste spokeswoman Denise Roche said the scheme wouldn’t fix the problem of plastic bags in waterways and on beaches, because it wouldn’t reduce the number of bags used.

Ms Roche said while the Government claimed its scheme was modelled on the Australia, it did not include the step most Australian states had taken of banning or putting a levy on single-use plastic bags.

The Greens don’t seem to care about food hygiene, for the only alternative to single-use plastic bags is the reusable bag, which poses a health risk not only to the people using it, but to any shopper coming into contact with anything or anyone who has come into contact with that bag. See Bacterial and Viral Health Hazards Of Reusable Shopping Bags

I personally gave up using reusable shopping bags years ago, despite my husband getting into buying them. I was sick of washing them, and probably didn’t wash them enough to feel confident they were safe to use.

In the end I thought, stuff it. Single use plastic bags (which aren’t really single use, I use the small one for rubbish bags in the bathroom) are very hygienic and convenient. Paying for plastic bags at Pak n’ Save doesn’t stop me from buying as many as I need – it just contributes to me shunning Pak n’Sav.

This is the problem with people losing faith in God, they need something else to moralise about and with the Greens, it’s the humble and safe plastic bag. The Greens want to send us backwards to when food contamination was more common.
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July 20, 2015 9:12am
Viking2

Yeh well Key and Smith have already ponied up with some money of our to be given to useless individuals to further their trough. Time key was given the shunt.
Become a soft hearted socialist whose claim to fame will be about how much money, both Taxpayers and borrowed, that he can give away.
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July 20, 2015 9:19am
Dennis Horne

I run a bath. I’ve got a wetback woodburner so the water temperature is not controlled, but if the fire is roaring I expect it to be very hot. I’ve got no direct method of measuring the temperature of the bath, that is, how much heat there is in the bathwater; I have to use proxies, like the amount of steam in the bathroom or something.

I haven’t put any cold water in but my steam gauge says it’s not too hot. But I haven’t put any cold water in and I usually do.

Do I jump in or do I think to myself, something’s not right here, perhaps I’ll just try an elbow first?

You see, increasing the CO2 by 40% from 270 to 400ppm means we would expect to see Earth retain more energy. If certain measurements indicate it isn’t, something is wrong. Either the measurements or the theory.

If the theory is wrong, where is it wrong?

Oh, I know. It doesn’t matter. Probably a big conspiracy. Scientists are such frauds…
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July 20, 2015 9:20am
Ed Snack

One doesn’t need to rebut the “97%”, it falls on it’s own stupidity. It exists because of the lack of intelligence and desire to be part of the sheeple by people like Griff. And asking me to prove a negative, fuckwit.

Time to get back on your drugs Griff, I suggest something more therapeutic is needed as you’re apparently hallucinating again.
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July 20, 2015 9:20am
Ashley Schaeffer

The world needs a word for that awkward and slightly embarrassed feeling one gets when you glance sideways and notice that Penny is standing alongside you on the protest line.
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July 20, 2015 9:22am
Griff

wingnut

Being a wingnut requires a particularly paranoid worldview, teetering on the edge of or falling wholesale into tinfoil hat territory, as wingnuttery causes the victim to refuse to accept any source of information that doesn’t back up their prejudices (essentially, wingnuts are almost always authoritarian as well as being politically right-wing). Constant gibbering about the “liberal media” as well as a slavish devotion to cognitive dissonance, conspiracy theories, global warming denialism, psychological projection, and crackpot theories of economics (i.e. Austrian school) are also, if not required, at the very least nearly universal symptoms. This is all usually accompanied by a side dish of a severe persecution complex.

Yip ED you display the classic symptoms all right.
Maybe you should go read some science for a change instead of believing such nuts as lord loony tune.
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2015/071615-international-report-confirms-2014-was-earths-warmest-year-on-record.html
International report confirms: 2014 was Earth’s warmest
year on record
Climate markers continue to show global warming trend

July 16, 2015
State of the Climate in 2014 report.
http://www2.ametsoc.org/ams/index.cfm/publications/bulletin-of-the-american-meteorological-society-bams/state-of-the-climate/state-of-climate-in-2014/
In 2014, the most essential indicators of Earth’s changing climate continued to reflect trends of a warming planet, with several markers such as rising land and ocean temperature, sea levels and greenhouse gases ─ setting new records. These key findings and others can be found in the State of the Climate in 2014 report released online today by the American Meteorological Society (AMS).

The report, compiled by NOAA’s Center for Weather and Climate at the National Centers for Environmental Information is based on contributions from 413 scientists from 58 countries around the world (highlight, full report). It provides a detailed update on global climate indicators, notable weather events, and other data collected by environmental monitoring stations and instruments located on land, water, ice, and in space.
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July 20, 2015 9:29am
dime

Does anyone in this country give a fuck about freedom?

These shitty little fringer groups, local govt and central govt just keep chipping away. its all just so dam sensible!! yet, everything they do reduces our freedom.

These were the top 3 stories on ZB this morning

1) – A plastic bag tax. proposed by the mayor of some shit hole. this is the second week in a row ive heard this. i see DPF has a post above about this issue so it looks like it wont happen, but only cause the govt acted quickly to do something else. the amount of people who were into this idea is scary.

2) – some council now wants a nationwide ban on smoking OUTSIDE pubs etc. seriously, the fuck??? they have already infringed on property rights to ban smoking inside a building that you may actually fucking own

3) – this might be my favourite. They want farmers/ landowners to be responsible for anyone on their property doing fun activities. eg a farmer is a good bastard who says – yeah mate, ride your dirt bike across my property, no worries. if they get their way, that farmer will be responsible if the dirt bike rider falls and injures himself. seriously, WHAT THE FUCK!

This is just one one Monday morning.
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July 20, 2015 9:31am
kowtow

dime , you’re onto it, many kbers seem to think all this is “progressive” and taking us somewhere marvellous.

Slowly but surely ,and it doesn’t matter whether it’s the blue or red team in power ,Nanny gets bigger and stronger.

It is always sold to u as a ‘good” , reducing inequality,child abuse, domestic abuse, worker safety, traffic congestion, health , save on government expenditure ( when has that ever reduced) but National particularly use that line,the environment, world poverty, global warming, national security (while admitting more Muslims) etc etc

Now you need scaffolders before you can get your fucking flue cleaned!
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July 20, 2015 9:39am
waikatogirl

dime
These shitty little fringer groups, local govt and central govt just keep chipping away. its all just so dam sensible!! yet, everything they do reduces our freedom.
***
They don’t have enough real problems to worry about.
Take a deep breath dime, it’s only Monday 😉
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July 20, 2015 9:40am
dime

Dime saw something on tv last night.

Prisoners at Mt Eden running a fight club and beating each other to a pulp. HILARIOUS!!!

for some reason labour thinks it needs to be stopped?

along with private prisons.. cause nothing bad happens in a union controlled govt prison! never! honest!
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July 20, 2015 9:41am
wf

Farmer says, yes you can pick mushrooms. Picker slips down bank, breaks ankle. Farmer liable.
Come on!
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July 20, 2015 9:43am
Inandout

Plunkett is on his anti Royalist rant this morning, with the ‘nazi salute’ issue. So was Charlie Chaplin a Nazi because he did a similar salute in ‘The Great Dictator’? There must have been a thousand kids in the UK at the time taking off the Hitler salute, between playing cowboys and Indians. And on the subject of racism, how does John Minto fit into the picture when he marches up Queen St very cosy with anti Semitic knuckle dragging Muslims; without mentioning Twyford’s Born Again Labour racist plank. A young Princess giving the salute in a home movie is just what any kid lucky enough to be in a movie at the time might have done, considering Hitler was in the news almost daily. To the MSM, this is the kind of shit they revel in.
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July 20, 2015 9:47am
dave_c_

Dime – No doubt a good option would be that every prison needs a purpose built slaughter room – Inmates should be left to it. They pummel the shit out of each other. Hopefully this would reduce the prison population quickly, and on a more frequent basis.
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July 20, 2015 9:50am
graphite

From Griff

“Ed often quotes the lord monckton on climate science .
What a bug eyed loon”

++++++++++++++

Christopher Monckton suffers from Graves disease, hence his larger-than-usual eyes. The condition has absolutely no effect on mental capacity.

I have been to two of Monckton’s lectures and found him to be a well above average public speaker; witty, engaging, polite and patient in question and answer sessions. At one of the meetings, a greenie had turned up to protest. Monckton came to the door, had a talk with the fella and invited him into the lecture where he was given a fair hearing with his questions.

I don’t agree with everything he does — his Catholicism leaves me cold — but the chance to sit with the man and discuss post-lecture a wide range of subjects is as stimulating an intellectual experience as any I’ve encountered.

Being called a loon by Griff is, I’m inclined to believe, a compliment.
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July 20, 2015 10:03am
All_on_Red

Dennis
“You see, increasing the CO2 by 40% from 270 to 400ppm means we would expect to see Earth retain more energy. If certain measurements indicate it isn’t, something is wrong. Either the measurements or the theory.
If the theory is wrong, where is it wrong?”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svante_Arrhenius

” In his calculation Arrhenius……omitted clouds, convection of heat upward in the atmosphere, and other essential factors. His work is currently seen less as an accurate prediction of global warming than as the first demonstration that it should be taken as a serious possibility.”
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July 20, 2015 10:08am
igm

dime: I once detested bureaucrats and anyone that supported them, now I find feelings of hatred. Had a dork around to clean a flue, wanted to do it from the inside. Told him to eff off and did it from the outside myself; he is now trying to get payment from me for the call, will see him in court. I can’t believe what National have agreed to of late, but one thing for sure, they will never get another donation or support from this family.
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July 20, 2015 10:13am
Jacob

Bank of America

Bruce R Thompson with 90,244 shares is the greatest individual shareholder in BOA.
David C Darnell is 5th with 393,785
That is, Darnell holds a US$7,074,000 interest in an organisation valued at US$2.1 trillion. Darnell and his influence over Bank of America is about 0.0000033 of it’s value.

So much for any influence or interest John Key may have.

PS: Why does Penny Bright never mention the ANZ Bank investment that the Prime Minister has?
Doesn’t that happen to fit her scenario?
Bugger!
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July 20, 2015 10:18am
Griff

graphite
Monckton has been caught out lying his arse of so many times he is a joke.
The funniest is the repeated claims he made to be a sitting member of the house of lords .
http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2011/july/letter-to-viscount-monckton/
This is from the English Clerk of the Parliaments telling Monckton to stop his repeated bullshiting.

>Dear Lord Monckton

My predecessor, Sir Michael Pownall, wrote to you on 21 July 2010, and again on 30 July 2010, asking that you cease claiming to be a Member of the House of Lords, either directly or by implication. It has been drawn to my attention that you continue to make such claims.

In particular, I have listened to your recent interview with Mr Adam Spencer on Australian radio. In response to the direct question, whether or not you were a Member of the House of Lords, you said “Yes, but without the right to sit or vote”. You later repeated, “I am a Member of the House”.

I must repeat my predecessor’s statement that you are not and have never been a Member of the House of Lords
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July 20, 2015 10:30am
Maggy Wassilieff

@Dennis Horne 9:20

Having had your bath and freshened up, you should be in a good state to turn your mind to the key question of your troubling problem

increasing the CO2 by 40% from 270 to 400ppm means we would expect to see Earth retain more energy.

No one is denying that the greenhouse gases may be contributing to a retention of energy.
The key question now is by how much?
And compared to the other factors that influence our climate (weather systems, ocean cycles, volcanic episodes, natural methane gas releases, solar cycles) how significant is the CO2 increase?

(can’t stay & play, sun shining… gonna get dirty)
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July 20, 2015 10:30am
Jack5

Interesting article about how NZ’s real estate agency is promoting Auckland property in the Hooerald today.

So it’s bullshit that it’s NZ-resident Chinese who are driving the Auckland housing bubble.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11483627
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July 20, 2015 10:34am
Griff

Maggy we know how much co2 is effecting the earth compared to the other forcing you mentioned.
Repeating the tied old memes long ago debunked is just silly nonsense.
http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-whats-warming-the-world/
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July 20, 2015 10:37am
Jack5

Good article, too, in the Hooerald on China and the Auckland property bubble by Heather Du Plessis-Allan

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11483250
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July 20, 2015 10:40am
Manolo

More wealth redistribution on the agenda? http://nypost.com/2015/07/18/obama-has-been-collecting-personal-data-for-a-secret-race-database/
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July 20, 2015 10:42am
Manolo

UT and stephieboy, devout followers of Islam, will be happy: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/07/19/charlie-hebdo-will-no-longer-draw-muhammad/?intcmp=latestnews
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July 20, 2015 10:44am
EAD

Kowtow says “it doesn’t matter whether it’s the blue or red team in power ,Nanny gets bigger and stronger”

Damn straight – National and Labour are two cheeks of the same arse.

I often wish Labour were in power so the the “2 ticks National” brigade on here would show some ticker instead of defending the indefensible because it is their team in charge.

Memo to the National brown nosers – shit is still shit even if the blue shit is slightly more palatable
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July 20, 2015 10:47am
stephieboy

Inandout , Charlie Chaplin’s movie the Great Dictator was a satire lampooning Hitler and his Nazi salute in the film needs to be seen in that context.

We need more information about why the Royal salute , whether satirical like Chaplin or some kind of fashion statement etc ?

Manolo, yeah Rupert’s NY Post is a paragon of objectivity and impartial;;it when it comes to Obama ?

Maybe you’d like to continue where Charlie Hebdo left off ?
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July 20, 2015 10:54am
Dennis Horne

Maggy. The point I am making is that it’s not a simple problem and dismissing the warnings by scientists as a conspiracy might be dangerous.

The greenhouse gases mean there can be life on Earth, because Earth retains energy, and altering the energy retained alters the climate.

My personal view is, do the research and deal with the climate as it comes.
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July 20, 2015 10:56am
EAD

Redbaiter delivers are bard hitting but entirely accurate takedown of that hypocrite – Cameron Slater:

http://truebluenz.com/2015/07/19/cameron-slater-marxist-stooge/
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July 20, 2015 10:59am
stephieboy

EAD, who cares about idiot Comrade Red !
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July 20, 2015 11:03am
Griff

Red calls every one a Marxist stooge EAD
Funny as.
Because.
He and you voted for the socialist conservative party .
Now polling at a stunning zero.
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July 20, 2015 11:09am
Scott

Some very sound analysis on the United States – Iran deal and how terrible it is for the United States and probably for world peace –

“An agreement was made in Vienna Tuesday only because the Obama administration capitulated to every demand made by Iran.

“It’s a deal worse than even we imagined possible,” wrote Weekly Standard Editor Bill Kristol. “It’s a deal that gives the Iranian regime $140 billion in return for … effectively nothing: no dismantlement of Iran’s nuclear program, no anytime/anywhere inspections, no curbs on Iran’s ballistic missile program, no maintenance of the arms embargo, no halt to Iran’s sponsorship of terror.”

Max Boot of the Council on Foreign Relations: “Having started negotiations with the goal of ending Iran’s nuclear program, the U.S. and its European negotiating partners are winding up legitimating Iran’s status as a nuclear power in waiting.”

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/07/19/appeasement_in_our_time_127440.html
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July 20, 2015 11:13am
wiseowl

Jack
Interesting in the article that Hong Kong has a list of regulations. Is that racist.?

Good ‘ol NZ. Soft touch and a bunch of pollies who see nothing, hear nothing.
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July 20, 2015 11:14am
Fletch

This is just appalling really, and disrespectful.

Not 24 hours after ~~four~~ five soldiers are killed by an Islamist, the iconic Empire State Building in New York is lit green to celebrate a Muslim holiday – the end of Ramadan – a holy season of a religion which allows abuse of women and hangs gays – that goes against everything America stands for.

Not one day – not twenty-four hours after the Chattanooga jihad mass murder – the symbol of American individualism, capitalism, and the capital of the world, the Empire State Building, one of the foremost symbols of American freedom, celebrated the Muslim “holiday” of Eid al-Fitr, the end of Ramadan. Ramadan is the most violent month of the year in the Islamic world, because Ramadan is the month in which Muslims renew their devotion to Allah, and violent jihad is a supreme act of devotion to Allah.

All told, 2,988 people were shot, burned, blown up, beheaded, or hacked to death in the cause of Islam during this “holy” month, with 3,696 wounded, beating last year’s savage human toll of 2,429, with 2,028 wounded. This is not political correctness; this is sharia adherence. Wherever your sympathies may lie, the idea that the Empire State Building would turn green for Eid not a day after five U.S. soldiers were murdered in cold blood in the cause of Islam on American soil is surrender. We have indeed been conquered.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/07/18/the-empire-state-building-submits-to-islam/
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July 20, 2015 11:24am
Jack5

Farmers stores are to abolish gender-specific changing rooms after a complaint from a transgender person.

Gender-specific toilets will be the next target.

Prejudice is one thing, but facilities are another. If women want gender specific changing rooms, I don’t see why their preferences should be trumped to meet the wants of a very tiny section of the population – transgender people.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/better-business/70367260/farmers-department-stores-planning-gender-neutral-changing-rooms
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July 20, 2015 11:24am
mikenmild

Do women want gender-specific changing rooms? Will anyone care?
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July 20, 2015 11:29am
Chuck Bird

He breached his Home D conditions. Why is he not in jail?

AC/DC drummer Phil Rudd remanded on bail

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11483721
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July 20, 2015 11:33am
Shawn Herles

A ‘mini ice age’ is coming in the next 15 years
Solar activity is predicted to drop by 60 percent in 2030.

http://www.sciencealert.com/a-mini-ice-age-is-coming-in-the-next-15-years

‘Mini ice age’ coming in next fifteen years, new model of the sun’s cycle shows

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/mini-ice-age-coming-in-next-fifteen-years-new-model-of-the-suns-cycle-shows-10382400.html

“Mini ice age likely from 2030 to 2040, European scientists say”

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jul/12/mini-ice-age-likely-from-2030-to-2040-european-sci/

There may have been some truth to the concern about possible global warming at one point, but science is about probabilities, possibilities, and theories, and theories can and do change. Science is never settled. Now apparently we may be in for a mini ice age.

The people who turned global warming into yet another Left Wing dogma that was beyond critique and demanded radical solutions that would have damaged economic growth were not motivated by science.
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July 20, 2015 11:34am
Fletch

Farmers stores are to abolish gender-specific changing rooms after a complaint from a transgender person.

Hmmm, I had to think about that one. I thought it just says changing room, and they had lots of doors for the actual compartment where you change. But on thinking about it, the Farmers I go to, the men’s and women’s clothing areas are on different sides of the store, which probably means that each area has its own changing room and they don’t need to say Men and Women on the outside, because the rooms are just situated in the right area for each gender.

It’s awful this stuff is invading the family-friendly Farmers…
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July 20, 2015 11:35am
Urban Redneck

Farmers stores are to abolish gender-specific changing rooms after a complaint from a transgender person.

Just 30 years ago we were told that all the gay community wanted was to live their lives out in the open without fear of arrest – to today whereby if you refuse to believe in the delusion that a man who surgically severs his testicles and penis then puts on lipstick and a dress will become a woman, you are committing a thought crime of the highest order. . . and Gay Sharia has a lot more ways to go yet.
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July 20, 2015 11:35am
Shawn Herles

“Do women want gender-specific changing rooms?”

That is a remarkably stupid question.

Oh wait, it’s mikey. Of course it’s a stupid question! 🙂
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July 20, 2015 11:37am
AgentBallSack

The world needs a word for that feeling you get when you notice Penny Bright standing in line next to you to pay her rates. I suggest “fuckshock”
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July 20, 2015 11:41am
Jack5

Milky (11.29 post), Farmers’ stores changing rooms are likely only the first target for the transgender “equalisers”.

Public toilets could be next. Unisex only could well be the call, and the “progs” would then shout and blog and even march until that was achieved.

Does anyone care?

Milky, you are assuming that gender-based facilities such as changing rooms and toilets were established because of social prejudices or some such. Perhaps, they evolved to help protect women from male predators.

Sex predators or those whose predilections require them sexually to operate underground do seem to use such facilities as target zones. If you dip into old newspaper files you will see that, in the days when homosexuality was illegal, public lavatories were where many homosexuals were nabbed by the police. I think one of the country’s best known literary writers (now dead) changed his name and moved north after being convicted after being arrested at a public toilet over a breach of some anti-homosexuality law.
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July 20, 2015 11:43am
UglyTruth

… a holy season of a religion which allows abuse of women …

Fletch, what an idiot.

“…And live with them in kindness…” Quran, Surah 4:19
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July 20, 2015 11:45am
Shawn Herles

Gay activists in Germany silent on alliance with pedophiles.

“In July 1981, the gay interest magazine “Rosa Flieder” published an interview with Olaf Stüben. Stüben was one of the most infamous pedophiles in Germany at the time. As a writer for the leftist newspaper Die Tageszeitung, he openly advocated for people to accept pedophilia as healthy and moral.

In the magazine interview, Stüben is asked why it should be acceptable for adults to have sex with children and youths. He talks of quickies with young boys, and declares it backwards to maintain the taboo around inappropriately touching children. “Childlike innocence is an invention of the bourgeoisie of early capitalism,” Stüben says.

The interview in “Rosa Flieder” was not a one-off lapse. On the contrary — in the 1970s and 80s, numerous gay-oriented magazines brazenly promoted sex with children, even running pictures of naked boys.”

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/gay-activists-in-germany-silent-on-alliance-with-pedophiles-in-1980s-a-919119.html

Pedophiles want same rights as homosexuals.

“Using the same tactics used by “gay” rights activists, pedophiles have begun to seek similar status arguing their desire for children is a sexual orientation no different than heterosexual or homosexuals.

Critics of the homosexual lifestyle have long claimed that once it became acceptable to identify homosexuality as simply an “alternative lifestyle” or sexual orientation, logically nothing would be off limits. “Gay” advocates have taken offense at such a position insisting this would never happen. However, psychiatrists are now beginning to advocate redefining pedophilia in the same way homosexuality was redefined several years ago.

In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association declassified homosexuality from its list of mental disorders. A group of psychiatrists with B4U-Act recently held a symposium proposing a new definition of pedophilia in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Health Disorders of the APA.

B4U-Act calls pedophiles “minor-attracted people.” The organization’s website states its purpose is to, “help mental health professionals learn more about attraction to minors and to consider the effects of stereotyping, stigma and fear.”
In 1998 The APA issued a report claiming “that the ‘negative potential’ of adult sex with children was ‘overstated’ and that ‘the vast majority of both men and women reported no negative sexual effects from childhood sexual abuse experiences.”

Pedophilia has already been granted protected status by the Federal Government. The Matthew Shephard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act lists “sexual orientation” as a protected class; however, it does not define the term.

Republicans attempted to add an amendment specifying that “pedophilia is not covered as an orientation;” however, the amendment was defeated by Democrats. Rep. Alcee Hastings (D-Fl) stated that all alternative sexual lifestyles should be protected under the law.”

http://www.greeleygazette.com/press/?p=11517

Sooner or later…….

Liberalism is a cancer in the body of the West.
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July 20, 2015 11:46am
stephieboy

Shawn Herles , I thought you might like to make a contribution about Trumps latset act of buffoonery re John Mc Cain ?

Meanwhile you might like to consider these lists in the following link,

Chickenhawk Hall of Shame

When an American male (or an especially belligerent female) makes the challenging transition from late adolescence into early adulthood, he is faced with many decisions. One certain, specific combination of choices will result in his becoming a chickenhawk: choosing to “support” war, while also choosing not to serve in the military. His motto becomes: “Let’s you and him go fight; I’ll hold your coat.”

Depending on external circumstances, such an individual may become one of three varieties of chickenhawk:

• If there is no draft, and the nation is at peace, the individual becomes a Common Chickenhawk;
• If there is a draft, and the nation is at peace, the individual becomes a Chickenhawk First Class;
• If the there is a draft, and the nation is at war, the individual becomes a Chickenhawk First Class with Distinguished Fleeing Cross.

We currently have 154 Chickenhawks listed in our database. Here they are, listed alphabetically. Click here to see them listed by date of birth……..

Note especially ,

George Walker Bush

John Ellis ( jeb ) Bush

Richard Bruce “Still Dick” Cheney

Enough said ?
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July 20, 2015 11:48am
kowtow

Royal Salute.

To all those wankers making a big deal about a little girl with a straight arm ,have a look at The world at war, episode 2 ,from 15 minutes to 1539. Everyone was doing it. A bit of fun , no modern day PC bullshit in the dance halls of London during the war.

Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rt6JDmJjYs&list=PL3H6z037pboEKhZaLYS879YMuDG8mGuQI&index=2
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July 20, 2015 11:52am
AgentBallSack

Phil Rudd released on bail after breaching his home detention requirements proving how bullshit and toothless NZ justice is.
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July 20, 2015 11:54am
Shawn Herles

“Shawn Herles , I thought you might like to make a contribution about Trumps latset act of buffoonery re John Mc Cain”

I already have, on the right thread.
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July 20, 2015 11:55am
stephieboy

Shawn Herles, but not on the shameful history of draft dodging .

Recall Cheney’s attempts to besmirch John Kerry’s war service and Cheney’s 5 deferments,

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/01/politics/campaign/01CHEN.html
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July 20, 2015 11:58am
AgentBallSack

Re Redbaiter. I thought he didn’t come here because he got banned, pwned and no one likes him. Amusing post though, he then goes into a 3 paragraph defence of (explaining is losing).
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July 20, 2015 12:01pm
Griff

A ‘mini ice age’ is coming in the next 15 years
Solar activity is predicted to drop by 60 percent in 2030.

Wanna bet ?
The same bullshit gets trotted out every few years since Wilie Soon started it well over a decade ago.
The report is just msm twisting facts for the gullible idiots who believe any thing that they are told
Like you.
Fortunately as a reduction in the suns output by 60% would result in a frozen ice cube earth with no life .

The story is actually referring to a scientists unpublished theory of sun spot activity cycles not solar output.
A sixty percent reduction in sun spots would result in at most a decade reprieve from warming.
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July 20, 2015 12:01pm
Shawn Herles

Obama Jew-haters boo “Jerusalem” at Democrat convention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqidkHbFDjk
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July 20, 2015 12:02pm
Urban Redneck

Through the secular-“progressive” looking-glass, the term “sexual orientation” has, in a few short years, evolved to accommodate an ever-expanding fruit basket of carnal appetites.

First it was “LGB” – liberal shorthand for “lesbian, gay and bisexual.” Then they added a “T” for “transgender.” That’s cross-dressing. You know, fellas like 45-year-old Clay Francis (aka, “Colleen”).

Mr. Francis enjoys macramé, long walks on the beach, wearing lady knickers and showering fully nude with 6-year-old girls.

Because it’s illegal to “discriminate based on the basis of gender identity,” and since it’s the only “tolerant” thing to do, this brave bellwether of the persecuted LGBT victim-class has secured the “civil right” for him and other men to fully expose themselves to your daughter in the locker room at Olympia, Washington’s Evergreen State College.

But slow down, Dad. According to the law, if you have a problem with Mr. Francis baring all to your baby girl, then you’re the problem. You’re a “transphobe” (“homophobia’s” evil twin sister, er, brother … whatever). Deck this sicko for terrifying your first-grader and you’re off to jail while “Colleen” is off to the “Human Rights Campaign” for a commendation as the latest victim of an “anti-LGBT hate crime.”

Rosa Parks in drag, I guess.

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/j-matt-barber/politically-incorrect-guide-sexual-identity
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July 20, 2015 12:03pm
dime

tranny rights. what a joke.

how many of these freakshows are there?

its just going to keep going until they are super citizens.

next up – pedo rights! they really just love kids ya know
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July 20, 2015 12:06pm
Shawn Herles

“Wanna bet ?
The same bullshit gets trotted out every few years since Wilie Soon started it well over a decade ago.”

It’s European scientists, amongst others, making the claim.

“The report is just msm twisting facts for the gullible idiots who believe any thing that they are told
Like you.”

Some scientists say one thing, other scientists say another, and the truth is scientific theories are always in flux.

All you have done is latch on to one possible theory, and turned it into a dogma because it supports your Gaia religious beliefs.
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July 20, 2015 12:08pm
graphite

@Griff

Yes, I have heard that Monckton was in some sort of dispute over his right to sit in the House of Lords but the petty arguments of the aristocracy are of little interest to me.

An institution such as the Lords, dating back centuries, is governed by such arcane rules, open to all sorts of interpretations, that I’ve no doubt Monckton isn’t the only grandee with a beef there.

As I said, I don’t agree with everything Monckton does but I do know he’s proud of his lineage and is fighting his corner.

Though exactly how all that ties in with him suffering from Graves disease and having protuberant eyes escapes me.

And I notice that you call him Lord Monckton. Interesting. You a believer in the system?
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July 20, 2015 12:08pm
Griff

Fucken hell
We all have body’s
Why are you all so uptight about nudity.
Small wieners or something ?
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July 20, 2015 12:09pm
Shawn Herles

“Fucken hell
We all have body’s
Why are you all so uptight about nudity.”

Do you support children being forced to undress in front of freaks and perverts Griff? That would be consistent with your gay rights beliefs.
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July 20, 2015 12:11pm
stephieboy

Shawn Herles, the Jewish Task Force ( JTF.org ) responsible for your video is in reality an extreme right wing front that e.g solidly backs Ted Cruz ,

https://jtf.org
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July 20, 2015 12:11pm
Griff

Yes, I have heard that Monckton was in some sort of dispute over his right to sit in the House of Lords but the petty arguments of the aristocracy are of little interest to me.

He lied repeatedly about who his is.
Even to the American congress.
Its not a dispute about aristocracy.
It an open letter to him from the uk Parliament because monkton has lied about his actual status in the law making body’s of the uk repeatedly even after two warnings .
and fuckwits like you think he is honest about any thing
How is his claimed cure for cancer and the common cold going?
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July 20, 2015 12:15pm
Fletch

Fucken hell
We all have body’s
Why are you all so uptight about nudity.

Because griff, the nude human form (especially the female one) turns people on sexually. Humans respond to the naked form.

Or are you wondering why magazines such as Penthouse and Playboy do so well? It isn’t for the articles 😉
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July 20, 2015 12:16pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@Griff 12 :01

The story is actually referring to a scientists unpublished theory of sun spot activity cycle

You were out of circulation when I exposed this little charade propagated by the MSM here in NZ (check comments section on Sciblogs)
http://sciblogs.co.nz/news/2015/07/15/mini-ice-age-media-sensation-reality/

Zharkova’s paper was published last year in the foremost peer-reviewed astrophysics journal
http://iopscience.iop.org/0004-637X/795/1/46
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July 20, 2015 12:19pm
kowtow

“And I notice that you call him Lord Monckton. Interesting. You a believer in the system?”

I notice the letter fro the House of Lords refers to him as VISCOUNT Monckton of Brenchley. When is a Lord not a Lord?

When labour stuff the House with its own lords and gets rid of the real ones.
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July 20, 2015 12:19pm
G152

About John Kerrys war service.
Pretty ordinary except he made a claim that he was somewhere
at a christmas when he couldn’t have been.
And a ‘rescue’ that never happened
There was comment about his Purple Heart …
All that was discussed when he tried to get elected POTUS
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July 20, 2015 12:20pm
Griff

Do you support children being forced to undress in front of freaks and perverts Griff

Who is forcing them ?
yet more imaginary shit to get all upset about sham.
Mountain meet molehill
Go to France and use a mens public toilet .

” freaks and perverts”
Trans are not catholic priests sham.
They wear dresses and act like woman not wear dresses and bugger little boys in the name of Christ.
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July 20, 2015 12:21pm
Harriet

Well some mums and dads might not see a problem with gender neutral toilets ect at all……

……until a woman in a nice dress -and with hairy legs- follows their young son or daughter into one.
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July 20, 2015 12:21pm
graphite

@Griff

“and fuckwits like you think he is honest about any thing”

++++++++++++

Why don’t you go the whole hog and call me a cunt. That’ll really strengthen your argument.
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July 20, 2015 12:24pm
RightNow

Hooray for Global Warming or it would be fucking freezing today.
I see the Karl 2015 dataset has been added to the trend calculator at SS. Trend since 1950 (allegedly when our addition of CO2 to the atmosphere started to cause dangerous warming) is still 1.31 deg C per century.
Scary stuff (hehehe)
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July 20, 2015 12:26pm
Shawn Herles

Griff likes to claim that he is on the Right of the political spectrum, and may even vote that way. He also claims to be pro-freedom and a classical liberal/libertarian.

But the truth is, when it comes to the crunch, Griff is in reality a promoter of New Left ideology.

Turning global warming theories into a religious dogma that nobody may question, supporting using the power of the State to persecute Christians, opposing freedom of conscience and freedom of association because they get in the way of forcing gay rights on people and private business,
downplaying the sexual and moral corruption of children because he supports gays and men with fake boobs.

He calls conservatives authoritarians and then promotes authoritarianism to support gays persecuting Christians.

He rants against Conservatives, and then demands that we all accept the Liberal status quo on abortion and gay rights, which is just a form of Left-Liberal conservatism.

He rants against religion, while preaching his own Gaia religion.

What Griff claims he is, and what he is in reality, are not the same thing.
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July 20, 2015 12:26pm
G152

Griff.
There is a register of Lords and Earls of Britain.
Your following statement is incorrect
‘It an open letter to him from the uk Parliament because monkton has lied about his actual status in the law making body’s of the uk repeatedly even after two warnings ‘

First look him up in Burkes Peerage.
Then read of the laws passed that removed numbers of members rights from the Lords Chamber..
Then its up to you whether you learn from the exercise or wish to continue repeating the same untruths
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July 20, 2015 12:27pm
mikenmild

G152
Lord Monckton is not, and never has been a member of the House of Lords. Following the reforms to the House of Lords, only a small number of hereditary peers now sit in the chamber, which is mainly comprised of life peers. Monckton has been repeatedly warned for passing himself off as a member.
Probably the most harmless of his deceptions though.
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July 20, 2015 12:31pm
Griff

G152
What does this say ? Who is saying it ?

http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2011/july/letter-to-viscount-monckton/
>Dear Lord Monckton

My predecessor, Sir Michael Pownall, wrote to you on 21 July 2010, and again on 30 July 2010, asking that you cease claiming to be a Member of the House of Lords, either directly or by implication. It has been drawn to my attention that you continue to make such claims.

In particular, I have listened to your recent interview with Mr Adam Spencer on Australian radio. In response to the direct question, whether or not you were a Member of the House of Lords, you said “Yes, but without the right to sit or vote”. You later repeated, “I am a Member of the House”.

I must repeat my predecessor’s statement that you are not and have never been a Member of the House of Lords
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July 20, 2015 12:32pm
Dennis Horne

Nearly 30 years ago I visited a friend in a surgical ward of St Mary’s, Paddington. I was appalled to find men and women all jumbled up in the same ward. The very English patient was too, he a graduate of Guy’s Hospital. Eventually the embarrassment that women felt shitting themselves in front of men, etc, became too obvious, and the experiment in unequal equality was terminated.

Homo sapiens is a clever monkey, but still a monkey. We are being lead to believe we are robots to be programmed by society. We are not.

We are already in trouble. Men are separating into two groups: the wild, aggressive, violent brutes and the wussies.
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July 20, 2015 12:39pm
mikenmild

I note in passing that Monckton has stood four times for election to the House of Lords. He has received a grand total of 0 votes.
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July 20, 2015 12:41pm
G152

Of course Griff when you are making claims about some-one you
could try harder and actually spell their name correctly.
Here is a link where all that is done for you…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Monckton,_3rd_Viscount_Monckton_of_Brenchley
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July 20, 2015 12:43pm
Griff

Of course Griff when you are making claims about some-one you

I am not making a claim I am publishing an open letter he received from the uk Parliament telling him to stop his repeated lies.
If you can not understand what the letter says get an adult to explain it to you.

One of many he has made.
He was even kicked out of the ukip for being a loon.
Lord loony tune is not a scientist he has a degree in journalism.
He makes a good living out of his little lecture tours for gullible idiots.
meantime the planet still warms and the world is busy agreeing to cuts of co2 emissions
to little to late
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July 20, 2015 12:52pm
Manolo

The Queen’s opponent is a virulent crazy, who could easily qualify as a proud member of the NZ Green Party: https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2015/07/18/summer-sanders-fall-sanders/FWFu6n73iroD98e4og2baM/story.html

Sanders’ insurgent campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination doesn’t spring for charters like his top competitor — at least not yet.
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July 20, 2015 12:53pm
igm

Slippery Soper has shown how low a journo can go. He has dragged JK’s son into his agenda-ridden column on Newstalk. This clarifies exactly what WO has been saying about MSM and dirty politics, driven by a Clark lackey, now a Little lackey.
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July 20, 2015 1:17pm
Manolo

Barry Soper is (and has been) a Labour hack for years. A personal admirer of Helen Clark, the veteran journolist cannot hide his deep love for the Labour Party.

Newstalkzb should have fired him long ago. Instead, he has become its chief political commentator. Figure that out.
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July 20, 2015 1:23pm
igm

Manolo: Did he not also demonstrate and throw paint at returning Vietnam soldiers, along with Clark and Goff?
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July 20, 2015 1:28pm

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