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June 19, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 19 June 2015

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Keeping Stock

Nice day for it…

But seriously, what sort of father buys his disturbed son a handgun as a 21st birthday present? Dylann Storm Roof will, if convicted, be executed.
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June 19, 2015 8:02am
duggledog

So, Colin Craig is getting the arse card.

Well, Colin, you just have to be smarter with the media than you have been because they were out to get you from Day One weren’t they. And they did, over and over again.

They would NEVER try and trip up Russell Norman by interviewing him in a sauna. Mind you Russell’s advisers would never have let him in the first place.

Fact is, New Zealand needs a centre right party
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June 19, 2015 8:06am
stephieboy

CHARLESTON, S.C. — Nine people have died in a shooting at a historic black church in Charleston, S.C., police said early Thursday morning.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/06/17/charleston-south-carolina-shooting/28902017/

I wonder when Alex Jones ,Paul Craig Roberts and WND will blame this on a Obama- Bilden inspired false flag attack to enslave the US populace with gun control laws ?
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June 19, 2015 8:07am
publicwatchdog

BIG PHARMA will hate this UK development!

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jun/16/chief-medical-officer-calls-review-after-statins-tamiflu-storm

Chief medical officer calls for review after statins and Tamiflu storm
Sally Davies writes to Academy of Medical Sciences in wake of negative press and public concern regarding the drugs

Chief medical officer Sally Davies has expressed concerns over statins and Tamiflu. Photograph: Ken McKay/Rex
Sarah Boseley Health editor

Tuesday 16 June 2015 18.00 BST Last modified on Wednesday 17 June 2015 11.27 BST

The chief medical officer, Sally Davies, has requested an expert review to shore up public confidence about the safety and effectiveness of medicines, in the wake of controversy around statins and Tamiflu.

Davies wrote to ask the Academy of Medical Sciences if it would undertake the work. “I am very concerned about the lack of resolution of the statins and side-effects issues in both the medical and general press,” she said.

“Coming on top of the debate about Tamiflu and the response to the ONS [Office for National Statistics] study on medication levels, there seems to be a view that doctors over-medicate, so it is difficult to trust them, and that clinical scientists are all beset by conflicts of interest from industry funding – and are therefore untrustworthy too. It cannot be in the interests of patients and the public’s health for this debate to continue as it is.”

She had “reluctantly come to the conclusion that we do need an authoritative independent report looking at how society should judge the safety and efficacy of drugs as an intervention,” she said in her letter to the academy’s president, Sir John Tooke.

There has been concern in some parts of the medical profession and the public about the widespread prescription of statins, which lower cholesterol. The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence has recommended that anybody with a 10% risk of developing heart disease in the next 10 years should take them – guidance that led to a fierce public war of words between doctors over the interpretation of the evidence. Critics of statins say the benefits do not outweigh the potential harm of side-effects.

Other scientists have been investigating the trials used to license the antiviral drug Tamiflu. The Cochrane collaboration, together with the British Medical Journal (BMJ), campaigned for years to get access to the detailed trial results and last year published their findings, saying that the drug did not reduce hospital admissions or the complications of a flu bout.

The academy has appointed Sir Michael Rutter, a former vice-president and professor of developmental psychopathology at King’s College London to head the working group that meetson Wednesday to scope out the review.

News of Davies’ move comes ahead of a BBC Radio 4 programme looking at questions over the efficacy of alteplase, a clot-busting drug given to patients within hours of a stroke. The Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Authority has set up a working group to look at the evidence from trials of the drug. Concern was originally raised by Roger Shinton, a stroke specialist, in a letter to the Lancet medical journal.

The BMJ, which published the papers critical of both statins and Tamiflu, is campaigning against over-treatment of patients by their doctors. Its Too Much Medicine campaign is intended to draw attention to the potential for harm as well as the waste of resources involved in over-medicalisation.

This article was amended on 17 June 2015. The original referred to the Royal Academy of Science instead of the Academy of Medical Sciences. This has been corrected .
———————————————————————-

Penny Bright

http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz
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June 19, 2015 8:09am
Chuck Bird

Will Colin Craig be the leader of the CCCP tomorrow?
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June 19, 2015 8:09am
Odakyu-sen

Dylann Storm Roof?

Could “funny name syndrome” have been a contributing factor?

This was probably a long time in the making.
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June 19, 2015 8:10am
kowtow

While they’re at it they can tell the Arabs to stop terrorising Israel. I’d have thought that a bit of aid to the millions of Arab refugees created by all those Arab dictators wouldn’t go amiss either. But to the left it doesn’t matter where the real problems lie ,it’s all about Israel.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/06/flotilla-gaza-set-sail-150618144302974.html
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June 19, 2015 8:11am
Chuck Bird

“They would NEVER try and trip up Russell Norman by interviewing him in a sauna. Mind you Russell’s advisers would never have let him in the first place.”

Winston does not need advisers to tell him not to do stupid things.
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June 19, 2015 8:12am
stephieboy

Penny Bright, are you involved in the anti fluoridation network as matter of interest ?

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=674961332520904&id=128729960477380
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June 19, 2015 8:12am
kowtow

It didn’t take long for Obummer to use the shooting for his own controlling purposes.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/06/18/obama-politicizes-charleston-shooting-calls-for-gun-control-slams-america/

The most unAmerican President ever.
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June 19, 2015 8:14am
Griff

Fact is, New Zealand needs a center right party’
Yip no disputing that.
National is a center right party in case you haven’t noticed.
The NZ Conservatives are not .
NO MORE ASSET SALES.
Is not a right leaning policy.
It is socialist to want the government to retain control over the economic functions of those assets.
The New Zealand Conservatives are a socialist party of the left.
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June 19, 2015 8:15am
stephieboy

kowtow, the 2003 US invasion of Iraq and its consequences has of course nothing to do with with these “millions ” of Arab refugees?

And you of course, re my earlier post ,believe that the Charleston Church massacre was an Obummer inspired false flag attack ??
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June 19, 2015 8:17am
itstricky

It didn’t take long for Obummer to use the shooting

I was pretty sure the “take a gun to a gun fight and there will be less casualties” was fully debunked as a theory.
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June 19, 2015 8:17am
Keeping Stock

@ Odakyu-sen – the same thought occurred to me, but with nine people dead and a young man likely facing the death sentence the idea of publicly linking the two seemed inappropriate.

I daresay that over the next wee while however we will find out more about the circumstances of this accused mass murderer, and we’ll be able to make some sort of judgment call as to whether his upbringing has in any way fuelled his apparent racial hatred.
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June 19, 2015 8:18am
Paulus

Happy Pleiades – named by the Greeks for the celestial effects of the stars – billions of year old of course.
Happy Ramadan – well known Muslim annual festival – known for fasting during the day, and no sex !
Happy Matariki – very recent excuse for much spending of other people’s money – plenty of eating and drinking, and of course sex.
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June 19, 2015 8:20am
duggledog

Bob Harvey – ‘Ambassador for Auckland’

Still on the public tit!
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June 19, 2015 8:20am
duggledog

Griff –

You don’t need asset sales, or delaying the pension, or anything else if you stop flushing money down the toilet – borrowed money at that. Which we continue to do with gay abandon.

Do you not get that?

That’s really all the Conservatives need to articulate.

To old farts like me, National is a centre left party, if seen through the lens of history. They’ve done a terrific job considering what they were left with and what New Zealand expects, but I am not impressed with the continuing bullshit such as yesterday’s revelation the Police are exercising racist policy

Etc
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June 19, 2015 8:22am
mikenmild

I see reports that his Facebook profile showed him wearing patches depicting the flags of apartheid-era South Africa and Rhodesia, so it seems he is probably an out-and-out white supremacist.
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June 19, 2015 8:23am
itstricky

They would NEVER try and trip up Russell Norman by interviewing

It’s not Colin’s fault he stripped off to get into a sauna with another man on national TV. They made him do it! Damn devious MSM!
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June 19, 2015 8:23am
Viking2

Chief medical officer calls for review after statins and Tamiflu storm
Sally Davies writes to Academy of Medical Sciences in wake of negative press and public concern regarding the drugs

Chief medical officer Sally Davies has expressed concerns over statins and Tamiflu. Photograph: Ken McKay/Rex
Sarah Boseley Health editor

Yep statins are not all they are cracked up to be.
Plenty have problems with them. 80+% in one group I attended.
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June 19, 2015 8:25am
hj

The Pressure Points of Immigration
By Professor Roger Bowden
http://www.nzcpr.com/the-pressure-points-of-immigration/#more-15250

Dr Muriel Newman

From time to time the criminal activities of immigrants hit the headlines, but few could be worse than the case of Van Thanh Tran, who was on the unemployment benefit from immigrating to New Zealand in 1993 until 2012. According to the Herald, Mt Tran was one of six high rollers at SkyCity casino under surveillance by the Police. Operation Ghost targeted an organised crime syndicate smuggling large shipments of pseudoephedrine from China into Auckland. Mr Tran was the ‘boss’. SkyCity records show that over the years, the amount of money won and lost was $67 million.

The fact that Mr Tan was able to remain on an unemployment benefit for almost 20 years raises serious questions about how well migrants are monitored once they arrive in New Zealand.

In the UK, not only are welfare payments to migrants restricted until they have lived in the country for four years, but if they haven’t found a job within six months, they are required to leave.

http://www.nzcpr.com/
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June 19, 2015 8:26am
Odakyu-sen

The shooter is quoted as saying, “I have to do it. You rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.”

Let’s look at the logic.
An individual perceives a threat to their “community” but then goes out and takes “revenge” on people who are not culturally members of that group considered to be a threat. (Racially perhaps, but not culturally.)

It’s a bit like someone fire-bombing a packed Bishop Tamaki church because of the feral shenanigans in South Auckland.
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June 19, 2015 8:26am
Viking2

Griff. If the Nats are right then your arse points uphill.

Trouble is that you have no idea of what right actually should be.

Have a free unencumbered day to do what you like as long as it doesn’t impinge upon others rights to do the same.
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June 19, 2015 8:27am
Scott Chris

But seriously, what sort of father buys his disturbed son a handgun as a 21st birthday present?

But seriously, why was he able to buy his disturbed son a handgun?
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June 19, 2015 8:27am
stephieboy

Colon Craig needs to understand like Crim.com that money doesn’t necessarily buy you electoral success .. Even NZ first did much better on much less.

Conservatives ,a much slicker campaign with policies appealing to mainstream New Zealanders is in order ! Not for those still living in a time warp of the 1950s and before .
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June 19, 2015 8:28am
itstricky

Odakyu-sen – Is stereotyping, and the absence of an ability to see through it, not a massive part of a racial attack like this anyway?
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June 19, 2015 8:29am
hj

stephieboy (5,762 comments) says:

June 19th, 2015 at 8:17 am

kowtow, the 2003 US invasion of Iraq and its consequences has of course nothing to do with with these “millions ” of Arab refugees
……
True, Saddam was all that was holding the place together, but drought and population increase play a part as well.
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June 19, 2015 8:31am
AgentBallSack

Chuck Bird, all Winston needs is a big sign saying NO. I can sell you one exactly the same for 138k.
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June 19, 2015 8:33am
G152

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvD8zuGy1z4
The ‘famous’ NZ jet pack that never gets off the ground unaccompanied by ground handlers.
Paris Air Show should be for flying machinery not scams
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June 19, 2015 8:35am
Griff

Socialism
: a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies

Vote Conservative vote for socialism.

As to the rest of their platitudes.
Anyone can say reduce government spending, reestablish family values yadayadayada
The conservatives failed to say how.
They did say they wanted to massively increase the prison population by both increasing sentences and abolishing parole.
This would be an expansion of government not a reduction.

Those of you who voted Conservative did not vote right.

ps We have a right wing party it is called ACT.
did you vote for them V2.?
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June 19, 2015 8:36am
hj

Professor Roger Bowden

And let’s not forget the education industry, large slices of which are bottom feeding off S.E. Asian students. A cynical view, not too far from the truth, is that we’re not selling the quality of our education (‘conversion[1] Masters’ and similar degrees) so much as the right to look for a job here afterwards[2], get residence; and bring Mum and Dad over as permanent residents as well, something you can’t do in most other countries.

http://www.nzcpr.com/the-pressure-points-of-immigration/#more-15250

Ahhh but see the diversity!?
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June 19, 2015 8:36am
stephieboy

hj,

“The fact that Mr Tan was able to remain on an unemployment benefit for almost 20 years raises serious questions about how well migrants are monitored once they arrive in New Zealand.”

A bit of perspective is on order ,

And how our local folk are monitored e,g South Canterbury Finance $ 1.6 billion fraud.

You very conveniently neglected to mention this piece just before your quote by Prof Roger Bowden,

“The economic gains from immigration have been well documented. Properly regulated, it augments the nation’s human capital. This needn’t all be high powered information ‘techos or entrepreneurs; it can refer to trades like carpentry (Poles in London) , ‘brickies and stonemasons (Italians in Perth), or to Chinese business linkages (guan xie in the vernacular). If we get it right, the immigrants can be a source of financial capital. Immigration is a terrific economic stimulus in itself; right now it is helping NZ ride out our own commodity price downturn….”
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June 19, 2015 8:37am
EAD

Here’s a side to Greece you don’t see reported on too much – Greeks stage a massive pro-austerity gathering in Syntagma Square:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-18/meanwhile-athens-there-pro-austerity-anti-syriza-protest-periscope-live-feed

The Greeks might have the beginnings of their very own Tea Party which doesn’t surprise me because if you’re a hard working business owner who actually has to work for their money, you must get sick of funding through taxes or inflation, public sector leeches who get 3 months of holidays, early retirement and generous pensions.

There is part of me that feels very sorry for the Greek people who have been sold snake-oil by politicians who believe in the tooth fairy desperate to be elected but much better to take your medicine now because the longer they leave it, the more painful it will be when they can’t kick the can any longer.
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June 19, 2015 8:39am
kowtow

grief

Re Asset sales as you put it, but more correctly partial asset sales , Notional retained 51% control , so is by your own definition also socialist.

Talking of socialism and the Notional party , what about their attacks on private property rights in the form of its maori party directed policies on tobacco? Socialism writ large.
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June 19, 2015 8:39am
Odakyu-sen

itstricky,

Yes. It is obvious that Roof believed that “they’re all the same,” which is a hallmark of racism. He used “race” as a defining tag to identify people whom he believed to be a “threat.”

Another point for debate: is Roof a “supremacist” or a “separatist”? What is the relationship between these two correlated concepts? Any thoughts?
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June 19, 2015 8:41am
cmm

The sad bit with the latest shooting is that they are the visible and emotional events. These are the events that make the politicians come out and talk about policy changes.

These mass shootings are less than 1% of gun homicides in USA. The rest 99%+ are onesy-twosy shootings – typically gang-based – shootings that tend to involve a completely different psychological and weapons use profile.

Outlawing handguns and “assault rifles” completely would reduce legal gun ownership and would likely cut down on mass shootings but would do nothing to change the numbers. The gangs do not care about firearms laws, would continue to own guns and would continue to shoot each other.
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June 19, 2015 8:42am
mikenmild

You need to realise that the mainstream consensus in New Zealand is socialist. No one is seriously arguing that education and health should be delivered in any other way.
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June 19, 2015 8:43am
peterwn

So Mighty River/ Mercury Globug scheme has come in for criticism which is that Globug power is allegedly significantly more expensive than normal tariffs. The main reason is apparently a customer who moves to Globug often has arrears with Mercury (or another retailer) which the customer needs to deal with (by borrowing, twisting WINZ’s arm, etc) before the customer can get any more electricity. A Globug customer can agree to pay extra for Globug power to clear past deficits. It is these extra payments that seem to be giving rise to these complaints – it seems the customers do not appreciate their situation or the full implication of signing up. Socialists would just prefer that power companies clean the slate and start again – an option that is unacceptable to the power companies and unfair to those who pay on time. Globug is voluntary, but arguably some people have little choice but to accept Globug and it would also give WINZ a reason to decline benefit advances or top-up’s.

Interestingly Herald Columnist Brian Rudman had managed (like some others) to pay power bills when they feel like it (possibly after the ‘final notice’) as they did in the old days of Power Boards and MED’s who tolerated late payments more than power companies do. Brian was really upset and offended when offered Globug as Mercury had assumed Brian was having trouble paying with his bills.

The other problem with Globug and similar schemes is they cost money to install and administer and power companies consider this should be recovered from the users. While prepayment has cash flow and other advantages for the retailer, it would be fair to assume that this does not offset the cost of Globug etc. Interestingly, pre-payment meters were historically popular but as the real price of power reduced from the late 1800’s to the 1960’s, they became quite uneconomic to have.

Hence the issue seems to be shaping up to be whether non-prepayment customers should be subsidising prepayment customers in the name of equality. Power retailers would possibly like to move all customers to some sort of prepayment schemes (and possibly offer postpayment schemes where debts are factored by someone else) but this would be unacceptable politically and with many customers.
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June 19, 2015 8:44am
stephieboy

EAD, Paul Craig Roberts, Alex Jones or your thoughts on the Charleston Church massacre ??

OMG, Jones is already on to the anomaly false flag mongering ,

http://www.infowars.com/false-flag-dylann-roofs-barely-used-facebook-page-likely-created-in-2015/
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June 19, 2015 8:44am
waikatogirl

Odakyu-sen:
The shooter is quoted as saying, “I have to do it. You rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.”

***
One of his obvious personal problems is that he is not attractive to women, probably was missing out so took his frustrations out on his closest hatred, those awful black people who get the girls.

Good one dad, buy your strange, loner son a gun for his 21st birthday.
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June 19, 2015 8:48am
EAD

@ Stephieboy,

I don’t have any opinion on this tragic case with yet another mass murder in the USA occurring with a paranoid young man wired up on mind-altering drugs, this time soboxone:

http://www.ibtimes.com/what-drugs-was-dylann-roof-suboxone-powerful-narcotic-found-charleston-shooter-1973919

Of course I had to go the “alternative news” to find this out as all the MSM want to report on is the race and banning guns angle, completely ignoring the 1 things that links all recent mass killings.
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June 19, 2015 8:50am
Shunda barunda

There’s a huge flood running through Greymouth at the moment, biggest since the record flood in 97. It’s currently running at just under 5000 cumecs and still rising! it’s quite an impressive sight.
Peak flow is expected just after 10am

This flood is about the same size as the devastating 1988 floods, the floodwall built soon after those events has been one of the best investments ever made, it has paid for itself several times over. I’d hate to think what it would cost to build the whole scheme now, the concrete height extension put up a few years ago was expensive enough.
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June 19, 2015 8:51am
Odakyu-sen

One of the things I don’t like about crimes like Roof’s is that people seize them as opportunities to push for great top-down control, rather than using the findings to try to empower individuals and families to take greater control of their lives (and their family members’ lives) to attempt to prevent this sort of thing from happening (i.e., don’t buy your (mentally unfit) son a gun).
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June 19, 2015 8:53am
Inandout

‘The fundamental differences between left-wing and right-wing ideologies center around the the rights of individuals vs. the power of the government. Left-wing beliefs are liberal in that they believe society is best served with an expanded role for the government. People on the right believe that the best outcome for society is achieved when individual rights and civil liberties are paramount and the role — and especially the power — of the government is minimized’.

National are not even Centre Right going by this explanation, as they have allowed certain groups to ride roughshod over the great majority of citizens, and red tape is now strangling growth. Interestingly many definitions of Left/Right say the left are ‘caring’, and the right ‘reactionary’ and uncaring; especially UK sites.
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June 19, 2015 8:58am
waikatogirl

hj
And let’s not forget the education industry, large slices of which are bottom feeding off S.E. Asian students.

***
I have a Malaysian friend who was sent to NZ for education at the age of 12. She lived with what she called “awful” home stay families. She was not accepted by NZ school kids so spent a lonely time finishing her secondary education. She completed university becoming a lawyer.

Sad state of affairs for a small child to be sent away from her family to an alien culture, but she is now happily married to a NZ lawyer with a cute child.
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June 19, 2015 9:01am
Inandout

Shunda barunda: Thank goodness there has been a precedent in 1988; and there always seems to be a precedent, which must piss climate changers off big time.
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June 19, 2015 9:01am
dime

“You need to realise that the mainstream consensus in New Zealand is socialist. No one is seriously arguing that education and health should be delivered in any other way.”

sad but true. kiwis love their “free shit”. lazy fucks.
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June 19, 2015 9:06am
Odakyu-sen

Inandout,
“Interestingly many definitions of Left/Right say the left are ‘caring’, and the right ‘reactionary’ and uncaring; especially UK sites.”

A bit like Mother Nature being “uncaring” in the way that the unfit are culled out in the wild. (Nature is a natural-born killer.)
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June 19, 2015 9:06am
kowtow

cmm

A hell of a lot of those ‘other’ shootings are ‘domestics’ involving Obummers’ favoured minority. But we won’t see the MSM wetting its collective pink panties over that.
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June 19, 2015 9:09am
Griff

Left-wing beliefs are liberal in that they believe society is best served with an expanded role for the government.

Yet again we have a fuckwit who doesn’t know what liberal means.
This is a liberal blog numbskull.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Liberal
A liberal tends to champion liberty, individual rights and equality, although it depends on what measures are being taken to realize those rights. Due to this, liberalism can fall under many branches, some even self-contradictory; for instance, classical liberalism favors limiting government action to promote individual rights while social liberalism tends to favor government action to protect individuals. Unlike conservatism, its traditional political opposite, liberalism may be against the status quo, favoring changes to better society.
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June 19, 2015 9:14am
Colville

Its a sad side effect of the second amendment that the right to bear arms has been translated into the right to own/sell/manufacture arms without consequences.
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June 19, 2015 9:15am
kowtow

milky

Yesterday you posted this: “During his life he had openly disliked being referred to as an “Irishman” ”

I asked you to cite the source. would you be good enough?
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June 19, 2015 9:17am
waikatogirl

A 3 year old shot himself this week while playing with the gun he found in his mothers purse.
Seems to me gun safety in the States needs tightening up. Trouble is the nutters such as Roof, and gangs set on killing each other don’t care about gun safety laws. The genie is out of the bottle.
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June 19, 2015 9:21am
waikatogirl

JK has called it quits after Tana Umunga becomes the Blues coach.
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June 19, 2015 9:23am
Griff

Kow tow your leader has a message for you.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/dam/francesco/pdf/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20150524_enciclica-laudato-si_en.pdf

Climate as a common good
23.
The climate is a common good, belonging
to all and meant for all. At the global level, it is a
complex system linked to many of the essential
conditions for human life. A very solid scientific
consensus indicates that we are presently witness
ing a disturbing warming of the climatic system.
In recent decades this warming has been accom
panied by a constant rise in the sea level and, it
would appear, by an increase of extreme weather
events, even if a scientifically determinable cause
cannot be assigned to each particular phenom
enon. Humanity is called to recognize the need
for changes of lifestyle, production and con
sumption, in order to combat this warming
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June 19, 2015 9:25am
ciaron

@ kowtow,
I think he cited Wikipedia.
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June 19, 2015 9:25am
Odakyu-sen

Griff,

If “social liberalism tends to favor government action to protect individuals,” then I think that some classical conservatives mistake “social liberalism” for “socialism.” NZ is definitely a socially liberal country, but not socialist (in that you can own private property and easily start up your own companies here).

I agree that liberalism can fall under many branches. I am more concerned about people who would seek to chop down the entire tree.
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June 19, 2015 9:26am
Griff

Odakyu-sen
I think coming from an extremely Conservative nation you would have a different view of New Zealands liberalism than those who fail to see the forest for the trees.
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June 19, 2015 9:30am
Odakyu-sen

Coleville,

I agree. The “right to bear arms” (freedom) needs to be balanced with individual responsibility to ensure that guns are used as intended (for citizens to use for the protection of themselves and their families against people who would do them harm). For example, keeping your pistol safe from your children but being able to immediately access it when someone breaks into your home (rather than having a disassembled weapon stored separately from its locked-away ammunition).
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June 19, 2015 9:33am
mikenmild

kowtow
Sorry, that was unreferenced from the Wikipedia article. Personally, I find it a little odd. I doubt that anyone referred to the Iron Duke as an ‘Irishman’ during his lifetime.
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June 19, 2015 9:33am
dime

so this teenage gunman has a problem with black fellas..

looking at his pics, this weedy little dude is gonna be having problems with giant black cocks in prison me thinks
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June 19, 2015 9:35am
Inandout

Griff: The vast majority of the common herd don’t micro analyse their voting behaviour, they just vote pretty much on emotions, followed by the effect on their pockets. This government is so centrist it has become almost indefinable; all I know is that we are more strangled by rules and regulations than we have ever been.
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June 19, 2015 9:41am
kowtow

milky

During his life he had openly disliked being referred to as an “Irishman”.[187]

187 Longford (1971). pp. 128–129.

I own that 1971 Longford , and that reference is false ,as pages 128 -9 make no reference to ethnicity, just politics and romantic correspondence .

Relying on wiki as a source is very dangerous.
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June 19, 2015 9:43am
Than

You need to realise that the mainstream consensus in New Zealand is socialist. No one is seriously arguing that education and health should be delivered in any other way.

Except that we do have plenty of private schools and hospitals, so mainstream NZ obviously doesn’t mind these things being delivered privately if that’s what people choose. But I agree they wouldn’t accept the public alternative being shut down.
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June 19, 2015 9:45am
Odakyu-sen

Griff,

Don’t get me started. I will concede that in a very conservative Old World nation like Japan, individuals really “know their place.”

Society is like climate. It is dynamic; not static. Using a biological analogy, think of the individuals who don’t fit in to the established order as “mutants.” Most will be suppressed. But some will flourish because they are “fitter” and have a competitive advantage in society. Thus, society “evolves.”

Yes, I support classical conservatism and respect long-standing culture and tradition. But I also recognize the importance of adaptation and competition.
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June 19, 2015 9:46am
kowtow

grief

yeah I know. Best Pope ever was Urban II (after Peter of course).

Can’t trust an Argie.

ps Seeing how you’re so impressed with him ,are you going to sign up, it would even the score up as I’m considering crossing the road to the Russian orthodox.
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June 19, 2015 9:46am
hj

stephieboy

You very conveniently neglected to mention this piece just before your quote by Prof Roger Bowden,
…
Of course immigration stimulates the economy but that is just a sugar rush unless the economy is better for it long term. Treasury paper 14-10 canvases all that.
One of the main issues is this

David Cameron is also committed to reducing the demand for skilled immigrants in the UK through better training of locals: “For too long we’ve had a shortage of workers in certain roles. Engineers, nurses, teachers, chefs – we haven’t had enough Brits trained in these areas and companies have had to fill the gaps with people from overseas. Some professions are on the Shortage Occupation List year after year and nothing is being done about it. So we will seek to limit the length of time professions can be classed as having shortages. Sectors that have become over-reliant on migrant workers will be encouraged to train Brits instead. What’s more, we’ll make it illegal for employment agencies to recruit solely from abroad without advertising those jobs in Britain and in English.”

The fact that New Zealand’s long-term skills shortage list includes chefs, database administrators, food technologists, surveyors, engineers, diesel mechanics, nurses, vets, physiotherapists, and social workers, does raise serious questions about how well our education sector is readying our young people for future careers in this country.

http://www.nzcpr.com/economics-and-immigration/
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June 19, 2015 9:50am
marcw

@G152 09:35

You do realise that your U-tube link was first posted in 2008 – that’s like before a further 7 years of development? FAA regulations meant that major modifications had to be implemented to ensure it would even be considered or would be accepted for licensing.

So why so negative?
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June 19, 2015 9:52am
stephieboy

kowtow, how many members at that Orthodox Church ? Five, eight , ten etc ?? Putin fans too ??
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June 19, 2015 9:53am
Maggy Wassilieff

@Griff

keep quoting Pope Francis….

Its a cold, overcast day here in Gizzy and I need something to laugh about.

Actually, when the Vatican frees itself from its profligate consumption and divests itself of its international wealth and supports population control, I might check out Pope Francis’ call for a change in lifestyle.
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June 19, 2015 9:55am
Griff

The vast majority of the common herd don’t micro analyse their voting behaviour, they just vote pretty much on emotions,
We know that by the number of noddys on here who voted for Colons Confused Conservative party.
Thinking it would get into a coalition with national when the conservatives had ruled it out by their not negotiable bottom lines.
I vote ACT because I want a more right leaning government. I have done every MMP election except for when banks was leader.
They lost my vote then because banks is a Conservative.
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June 19, 2015 9:59am
Griff

As an athiest I dont take the pope seriously
for kowtow and other Catholics in denial it is a huge issue
For you as a published scientist this is the issue.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/how-climate-change-deniers-got-it-very-wrong
How climate change deniers got it right — but very wrong
It turns out the climate change deniers were right: There isn’t 97% agreement among climate scientists. The real figure? It’s not lower, but actually higher.

The scientific “consensus” on climate change has gotten stronger, surging past the famous — and controversial — figure of 97% to more than 99.9%, according to a new study reviewed by msnbc.

James L. Powell, director of the National Physical Sciences Consortium, reviewed more than 24,000 peer-reviewed papers on global warming published in 2013 and 2014. Only five reject the reality of rising temperatures or the fact that human emissions are the cause, he found.
………………………
The results include work from nearly the entire population of working climate scientists — close to 70,000 scientists, often sharing their byline with three or four other authors. They also include a dwindling opposition: Powell could find only four solitary authors who challenged the evidence for human-caused global warming.

That’s a rate of one dissenting voice for every 17,000 agreeing scientists, and it’s not a strong voice. Powell called the four dissents “known deniers and crackpots,” and noted that their work had been cited only once by the wider academic community.

“It’s now a ruling paradigm, as much an accepted fact in climate science as plate tectonics is in geology and evolution is in biology,” he told msnbc. “It’s 99.9% plus.”
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June 19, 2015 10:05am
Manolo

Outrageous: http://dailycaller.com/2015/06/18/cnn-live-shot-interrupted-by-heckler-white-people-are-terrorists-obama-is-an-uncle-tom-video/
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June 19, 2015 10:08am
Maggy Wassilieff

@Griff….

and along with spelling, I could provide you with a couple of lessons on The Scientific Method…..
but I know you are a busy boy, and possibly too old to change…..but here’s a wee hint…
keep an open mind and don’t trust a consensus dreamed up by a psychology student incapable of doing his own research.
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June 19, 2015 10:12am
mikenmild

Griff’s occasional difficulties with spelling do not seem to impair his understanding and ability to communicate the fact that an overwhelming majority (bordering on unanimity) of climate scientists support the present consensus on climate change. You would have to have pretty serious scientific credentials to credibly go against that.
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June 19, 2015 10:18am
Griff

The problem is your mind is so open your brain has fallen out .
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June 19, 2015 10:23am
Lance

@G152
You should do a little checking before you dis a great aircraft.
Any radical new design of aircraft will take something like 5 – 10 years before they are put into service by the US military. Martin are pursuing a well worn and professional development path.

One crash during development and Martin Jet Pack company is dead.
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June 19, 2015 10:29am
waikatogirl

dime:
looking at his pics, this weedy little dude is gonna be having problems with giant black cocks in prison me thinks

***
You would be right, but it will be relatively short as I imagine he is a prime candidate for a quick trip through Death Row to his demise.
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June 19, 2015 10:44am
OneTrack

mike – “an overwhelming majority (bordering on unanimity) of climate scientists support the present consensus on climate change”

Have you got an up-to-date link on that? The 97% was debunked a long time ago.

And I wonder if they used the same argument against Einstein in 1904? That he should just STFU because all these people in positions of power say that they know what is right and no correspondence will be entered into?

But as you are a believer, I assume you have sold your car and only travel by pushbike, installed an off-grid solar system at your place so you don’t risk any fossil fuels being used when you turn the lights on, etc., etc. And if the answer is no, you haven’t, then the obvious question is – why not – all those scientists say you MUST. But, for some reason, they don’t do that either, do they?

Even the Green Party agree that “poverty”(tm) is more important that climate change – just read their press releases. so it can’t be that important if even the high priestess of the environment puts it on the back burner.
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June 19, 2015 10:55am
kowtow

Such fun.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3130476/Did-Michelle-Obama-not-irony-Tower-Hamlets-speech-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-asks.html
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June 19, 2015 10:57am
Maggy Wassilieff

@mikenmild

There are numerous scientists that want open, transparent climate data so that they can unequivocally determine the extent of man’s contribution to global warming.
Here’s an old list of some of them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming

Here’s the latest report on the climate observation data coming out of Australia’s Bureau of Meteorology.
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/change/acorn-sat/documents/2015_TAF_report.pdf

The auditors think its ok, but as no-one else has ever been able to repeat or employ the temperature adjustment method used by the BOM, the auditors are calling for improvements in accessibility of the Oz data.

Scientific methods and data collection must be open and available for cross-checking. Otherwise we might as well as put ourselves in the hands of some infallible authority….
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June 19, 2015 10:58am
dime

“but it will be relatively short as I imagine he is a prime candidate for a quick trip through Death Row to his demise.”

doesnt it take at least 10 years? appeal after appeal..
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June 19, 2015 11:11am
mikenmild

That’s a sad old list, Maggy. Even the fact that you could make a Wikipedia list of ‘scientists’ opposed to the consensus should tell you that there are not that many of them. Forgive me if I continue to trust the consensus of 70,000 climate scientists.
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June 19, 2015 11:11am
Fletch

In lieu of the young man stealing and riding that front end loader (which I agree was not a great idea), it reminded me of these videos featuring ‘Steve’ getting pulled over by the police in all manner of wheeled contraptions, from a mobility scooter, to a scissor lift, mostly while drinking beer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30InBgGhiSo

https://youtu.be/vIyWt16e8oo

https://youtu.be/iT7IFcgTHXs

[edit] turns out they are the work of a comedian (of course), but still funny 😀
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June 19, 2015 11:16am
Dennis Horne

All aircraft that fly have wings that meet the airflow, fixed for aeroplanes and rotary for helicopters and gyrocopters.

Ducted fans are efficient at high speeds only, which is why short field aeroplanes are turoprop not turbofan.

I can’t see how it will fly in any meaningful way. Martin has been trying for over 30 years. Probably the whole concept has been superceded by multi-engine quadcopter-type craft.

Helicopters are inherently dangerous in certain states such that they cannot glide (autorotate). The Martin jetpack is permanently in that state, so must have a ballistic parachute. Whether that can save you after an engine failure at say 50 feet, I don’t know.

Additionally, the engine is a 2l 200hp two-stroke, running constantly at near-maximum revs, and 2-strokes are notoriously unreliable in aircraft. The time-before-overall maybe 200 hours (new engine?).

Then, when you get to your destination, what do you do with it? You can’t pick it up or move it.

Anyway, Martin has gone, along with his dream. All that’s left is the venture capital … and an engineering nightmare.
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June 19, 2015 11:26am
Griff

OneTrack
That the 97% was debunked is a load of rubbish from lord (I have invented a cure for cancer and the common cold )Monckton.
If you believe anything lord Monckton puts out your are really are a loony tune
The link is to a new survey of the literature over the last two years .

Maggie really that list has a bunch of known loons on it.
😆
Try this one its not up to date the compiler died a few years ago but has both sides and their publishing history.
http://www.eecg.utoronto.ca/~prall/climate/climate_authors_table.html

This table presents some of the many hundreds of scholars working in scientific research on climate change and related fields. The list incorporates all 619 names of the contributing authors to the IPCC’s Fourth Assessment Report (AR4), working group 1: the scientific basis (‘wg1’). A few names have also been tagged for other contributions to the IPCC, either to other workging groups or to prior reports (AR1-3), but I’ve only added a very few such cases that I’ve come across in passing. [Note: ‘external reviewers’ are not contributing authors; anyone could submit review comments, and I have not found any central listing of who submitted comments.]
I have been adding other names gathered by hand, starting with co-authors of names I had, then expanding to departmental colleagues at the various university and government climate research centers I’ve come across, etc. While there is no way to call this “finished,” I feel by now I’ve found a good majority of the most cited sources. I still find a new name that ranks near the top of the list from time to time, but less often as time goes on.
Also included for comparison are some of the most widely cited climate ‘skeptics’ based on their explicit endorsement of any of nine public declarations or open letters that argue against the need for immediate cuts to greenhouse gas emissions. See below for notes on these. I distinguish between statements that individuals were able to endorse on their own initiative, as opposed to appearing in a list maintained by someone else who claims those listed are skeptics or have made statements the list keeper interprets as challenging (refuting?) the IPCC/mainstream/consensus.
……….
of the top 500 most cited authors in the larger list, just 23 (4.6%) have signed any climate skeptic declaration, while 184 (37%) — nearly ten times as many — have signed an ‘activist’ statement (aside from the IPCC reports themselves.) [Note: these stats may vary slightly as I update the list with new names and stats.]
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June 19, 2015 11:27am
Ed Snack

Here’s irony, Griff talking about “brains falling out” when he wouldn’t know one if it bit him. Griff is quite simply a religious nutter that subscribes to a fanatic secular religion. And like all religious nutters, really, REALLY hates people who adhere to an alternative religion, hence his christophobia.
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June 19, 2015 11:32am
Maggy Wassilieff

of course its an old list… the point is that there have always been dissenting voices.. and that’s natural and healthy for scientific debate and progress in Climate research.

The recent problem is that agencies are actively working to close down the scientific work and writings of those who think the evidence for natural variability of Earth’s climate has been seriously understated by the IPCC.
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June 19, 2015 11:39am
Griff

Eddy boy its called science
Hence why you dont like the 97% scientific consensus .
What you post is called religious faith in a bunch of contradictory loons

And like all religious nutters, really, REALLY hates people who adhere to an alternative religion,

I think you would have an interesting time trying to explain to my christian girlfriend why I hate her.
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June 19, 2015 11:46am
mikenmild

agencies are actively working to close down the scientific work and writings

Examples please.
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June 19, 2015 11:47am
Maggy Wassilieff

@mikenmild

you are not keeping up….

check out Willie soon,
Roger Pielke jr

tune in to some of the blog sites that Griff issues fatwas against
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June 19, 2015 12:00pm
G152

You do realise that your U-tube link was first posted in 2008 – that’s like before a further 7 years of development? FAA regulations meant that major modifications had to be implemented to ensure it would even be considered or would be accepted for licensing.

At the 2015 Paris Air Show (just finished) the hover toy did just what that video shows.
Nothing

So why so negative?
a) Because it doesn’t fly i.e circuits
b) It has been in the same state since 2008.
I have been to a number of aviation displays where it is in the ground displays.
Never flying
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June 19, 2015 12:00pm
Dennis Horne

I have the greatest respect for some on the Wiki list, such as Hendrik Tennekes. Henk was a Professor of Aeronautical Engineering at Pennsylvania State University. I recommend without hesitation his book, The Simple Science of Flight: From Insects to Jumbo Jets. Anyone with any curiosity in how birds fly should read it.

Henk was the director of research at the Royal Dutch Meteorological Institute; basically sacked.

His criticism was directed at the difficulty of the modelling, and he was quite right. That is some time ago and I have no idea what he thinks now. I am told the modelling is better.
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June 19, 2015 12:04pm
Kleva Kiwi

I can’t believe how many people posting in General Chat today are so politically ignorant, ranting on how National and Conservatives are Socialist. You would think they where born yesterday.
Any amateur political analysts worth their salt knows that there is no such thing as a linear left/right ideology.
At bare minimum, political parties need to be split into two strains on a graph, a left right economically and a north south socially.
This is called the political compass people, go have a look!
Conservatives are clearly socially conservative and moderately economically conservative. National currently is economically conservative and socially liberal (called classic liberal). An economically conservative government does not have to default to selling off all assets, that’s territory of hard right economic policy.
Calling them left is being extremely cynical and normally from people who identify more with fundamentalism or Liberal capitalism.
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June 19, 2015 12:13pm
Ed Snack

Except Griff, you have no idea of what science is. You have no understanding of what is being published as climate “science”, heavens above, you even think that Michael Mann is a scientist not a political activist.

Quite simply, you are a deluded religious nutter, and sure you have a christian “girlfriend”, this is teh interwebs, remember.
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June 19, 2015 12:13pm
mikenmild

Roger Pielke jr

Not a scientist. Also not an outright denier, just believes emissions control will not be effective.
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June 19, 2015 12:18pm
Dennis Horne

Ed Snack. I am surprised at the intensity of your attack on Griff. Truly. Would you care to disclose, in general terms, your qualifications or background in science?
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June 19, 2015 12:20pm
Griff

check out Willie soon,

Yip almost a dozen papers where he failed to disclose a conflict of interest.
“Deliverables” for a coal mining company according to his own emails .
And you think failing to disclose funding is ok?
As I already pointed you towards a example of his rubbish “science” years ago that you even think his is a scientist is mind boggling .

Roger Pielke jr was kicked of Nate silvers blog for distorting statistics .

FiveThirtyEight is devoted to rigorous analysis of politics, polling, public affairs, sports, science and culture, largely through statistical means.

Hardly the place that would want someone telling statistical porkies is it .

As to your blogs
joe nova 😆
How is the crank theory of the notch going?
dr Roy Spencer phd
That would be “god made the climate nothing man can do will change it: Spencer .
or WUWT
Founded on the premise of the urban heat island effect invalidating temperature measurements.
Much work later and he posted a pre publish paper.
That was found to be flawed by omission by one of its claimed co authors.
Nothing heard of this ground braking study since as it is utter tripe.
His cherry picked stations actually give a larger warming trend .
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June 19, 2015 12:29pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Mikenmild..

most climate change sceptics are not deniers… Practically everyone accepts that the climate has been warming since the end of the last Ice age.

The debate (lack of consensus) is with the contribution that man’s activities (and in particular greenhouse gases) have added to the warming.

Much of the debate has moved into the science policy field.. so don’t dismiss the actions that are being taken against reasonable voices in the climate change debate.

However, as I always say… you don’t have to take my word for it…. feel free to follow the advice of Pope Francis & the NZ bishops.
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June 19, 2015 12:31pm
Griff

Ed
Dr. Michael E. Mann is Distinguished Professor of Meteorology at Penn State University, with joint appointments in the Department of Geosciences and the Earth and Environmental Systems Institute (EESI). He is also director of the Penn State Earth System Science Center (ESSC).
Often his work his highly cited.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=80&q=Michael+E.+Mann&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5
😆
Do you know what published peer reviewed science is
any idea ?

The hockey stick is the reason why you hate him .
guess what?
Confirmed and expanded since way back in 1998 by at lest another dozen papers and hundreds of authors.
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June 19, 2015 12:37pm

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