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June 17, 2015 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 17 June 2015

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Ashley Schaeffer

itstricky (2,472 comments) says:
June 17th, 2015 at 11:26 am
It says very clearly that non Maori are entitled to the same and that the wording was just “inadequate”. Yawn.

Wakey wakey. Why include the word “Maori” in the policy at all then? If it meant nothing and non-Maori were to be treated the same, why did Police Officers in South Auckland complain that they had trouble determining who was Maori and who wasn’t?

“Poorly worded” is political-speak in an attempt to downplay a serious cockup. A bit like a politician who gets caught lying and responds that they just “misspoke”. The Police should be hauled over the coals for this, but they won’t be.
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June 17, 2015 1:36pm
howitis

Since we now have apartheid officially here – because Law enforcement have made it so then lets really implement it.

Fence off Northland just above Te Hana. Make that Maori sovereign land and a separate nation. Any Maori (to be defined) can move there and get an Aotearoa passport.

They get the same rights as Helen negotiated for NZers in Australia from 2001 if they want to come here to NZ.

The area gets an existing airport and deep water port. There is tourism , forestry and farmland. It has the warmest climate in the existing country so cold houses not such a problem. They can have their own currency and passports. They can charge for entry as they do on some mountains in NZ now. They can sell passports if they like or any other innovative idea like legalise cannabis. Opportunities abound.

It would be a bit like Scotland except warmer. We could stop all treaty settlements and the apartheid system in NZ. Quite frankly I saw the stats in 2006 that if the Maori factor were taken out of NZ overall stats like smoking, prison, teen births, child health; general health and a host of factors NZ would have a standard of living above Switzerland.

I hear calls for Maori sovereignty and own destiny. I’m all for it. Why not! They did it in India in 1947. Sudan was separated. Many in Scotland want their own sovereign nation. This is far more sensible than the way Korea was separated. We have seen with Auckland’s not very super city that bigger is not always better. Smaller can be good.

A lot of issues solved. The Aotearoa sovereign nation would have huge opportunity and clean slate: Decide whether to have driver licencccces(sic) or not; legalise cannabis; open their own casinos like the US Native Americans can; issue their own passports; have tax on cigarettes- or not; GST on food or vegetables -their tax system, their call; decide what is a punishable crime or not. I would pay $50 for a one month visa to visit Coopers Beach. I have paid in the past to cross from West Berlin to East Berlin.
They could get a vote on the whaling commission and all the other junkets.

On the other side in New Zealand: no more Maori MPs; no more ‘full and final settlements’; no more giving Mt Edens etc to Maori; no more Maori committees on L.Auth. councils; no more koha or taniwhas; no consulting Maori and 16 Iwi to add a window in a building; no more Iwi vs Kiwi just a citizen here whether of Euro, Chinese, Samoan or whatever combination.

In New Zealand you are a citizen of NZ and have EQUAL RIGHTS and are treated equally under the law. I am sure Mr Minto would be happy with this. He protested against apartheid or as they called it in the 80s ‘apart hate’. Kick Dame Devoid to the curb. Public service could be chopped by over 20%. The benefits compound. NZ could give a kick-start of $20 billion for establishment and $5 billion a year adjusted for NZ inflation. It would be cheap and we would have an equal society. It would take 3 to 5 years to establish and Marsden point oil refinery needs to be sorted but otherwise what is the downside? The current NZ situation is too higgledy piggledy and racist. Time to sort it.
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June 17, 2015 1:37pm
Brigitte

@SGA at 1:19pm

Said with coherence and cohesion. Mind you, I would have expected those words from theAPPLEBYmode rather than yourself though his initial effort was commendable.
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June 17, 2015 1:44pm
stephieboy

howitis,

“Since we now have apartheid officially here – because Law enforcement have made it so then lets really implement it.??”

Since when have had compulsory separate toilet, beach, public parks access , schools etc ???
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June 17, 2015 1:55pm
cricko

So it seems possible that something did go horribly wrong in this trial.

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/disturbing-evidence-vetoed-judge-in-cissy-chen-murder-case-may-prompt-appeal-6340234

I thought that the jury decision must have been influenced by something not evident to the casual observer and
not reported in the media.

Somebody made a mistake.
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June 17, 2015 1:57pm
Paulus Gnome

Auckland Mayor Len Brown and his wife Shan Inglis sold their big South Auckland house for $1.68 million – less than the asking price of $1.75 million.

Apparently there were one or two stains on the furniture that could not be explained and they do not have a dog, cat or budgie . . .

My apologies for the comment to Ms Inglis who is not to at fault in this instance
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June 17, 2015 1:59pm
Shawn Herles

“Since we now have apartheid officially here”

Nonsense. It’s a silly policy but it’s not apartheid. There is no apartheid in NZ.
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June 17, 2015 2:06pm
thedavincimode

Pete’s principles are now as clear as mud

Precisely as they are intended to be. PG’s policy framework enables considerable flexibility to suit the mood and the occasion. Allow me to assist your understanding with a practical example. For the purposes of the example, let’s just assume that PG and his adoptive father and political inspiration are one and the same; ie, it is in fact PG who is “in” gummint.

The starting proposition is that PG likes income splitting (you may recall his advocacy of this idea of Dunny’s) because it will save him some cash and there will always be others to pick up the fiscal slack created by the fiscal advantage to Maison George.

PG now unleashes the full power of his policy framework:

1. He floats the idea of income splitting pointing out the inequity of stay at home spouses caring for the family not being recognised as contributing to the family unit whilst the working spouse is unfairly required to bear the full fiscal cost of the family’s monetary earnings.

2. He consults widely with the community in order to solicit and assemble the full range of views on eliminating this inequity from the tax system. (consult)

3. He takes very seriously the contrary view that implementing such a proposal is on one view, arguably, but only arguably, potentially less optimal for those who are not in relationships and expresses extreme concern that there should be absolutely no, repeat no prospect that young entrants to the workforce are prejudiced in the medium to long term by temporarily being unable to benefit from the removal of this inequity, whilst recognising that in due course and in the fullness of time they will in turn benefit from this measure when they form their own relationships. (canvass and distill).

4. PG concludes that having consulted widely and having considered most seriously the advice of his officials, this abhorrent inequity should be removed because it is reasonable, sensible and fair to do so, and at the same time expresses his extreme regret that present fiscal imperatives preclude more widespread fiscal relief, but at the same time noting the compelling case for taxation reduction. (the slam dunk).

Outcome: more cash at Maison George, less cash at Maison shitkicker kid who holds up a stop sign at the roadworks in the middle of winter down the bottom of some freezing cold gorge where the sun don’t shine.

Hopefully this gives you some idea of the potential and adaptability of PG’s policy framework.
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June 17, 2015 2:19pm
Manolo

It is all doom and gloom, says the myth peddler: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/15/pope-francis-destruction-ecosystem-leaked-encyclical

Pope Francis will this week call for changes in lifestyles and energy consumption to avert the “unprecedented destruction of the ecosystem” before the end of this century, according to a leaked draft of a papal encyclical.

Give that man a Green Party membership application!
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June 17, 2015 2:37pm
stephieboy

This looks avery good and fascinating read,

Stalin’s Daughter by Rosemary Sullivan, review: ‘delicate and balanced ‘

Stalin’s daughter left the Soviet Union for the American dream, but never found happiness. Frances Wilson welcomes a fine portrait of a damaged life

I do recall reading Svetlana Alliluyeva famous “Twenty Letters to a Friend “many, many years ago who emerges in this book as complicated and tortured soul so very human as the reviewer notes ,unlike her inhuman father ,Stalin.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/11605073/Stalins-Daughter-by-Rosemary-Sullivan.html
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June 17, 2015 2:41pm
ngatimozart

This will get a few going 😀

Damaging waves, such as those which battered Wellington’s south coast on Sunday, are predicted to occur more often as sea levels continue to rise.
Victoria University professor of physical geography James Renwick said people living near the beach could have to move in 30 years’ time as land was taken over by the sea.
A 30-40cm sea level rise in that time would make some areas vulnerable to inundation when there was a big tide and a storm.
Prof Renwick said even if greenhouse gas emissions were stopped tomorrow, the sea would still rise 1-2m in the next 200 years, making coastal erosion caused by climate change the most pressing issue facing the country.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/276351/coastal-properties-under-threat-scientist

The science is very good on this with plenty of research worldwide on the effects of waves on shores causing erosion. It is an issue that has no easy answer and great difficulty in engineering for, so that adverse effects do not happen further along the coast because of the engineering solution.
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June 17, 2015 3:22pm
UrbanNeocolonialist

Sea level rise is around 2-3mm/year, fairly constant for nearly 100 years, no sign of recent acceleration.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ikXzCCe1bNc/U9h19XT0smI/AAAAAAAAN90/3BaMbOGCItM/s1600/NASA-s.png
http://www.climate.org/topics/sea-level/images/clip_image002.gif
In 30years if trend continues we will have perhaps another 100mm sea level rise. 30-40cm (3-4x real world) in that time and 1-2m in 200 years is just more nutty millennialist bullshit from the usual suspects (who also produce wildly excessive warming predictions).
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June 17, 2015 3:49pm
Griff

The nutters uban bullsiht artist are those who make up shit and expect the rest of us to believe it .
http://www.mfe.govt.nz/climate-change/adapting-climate-change/adapting-sea-level-rise
The ocean is absorbing 90 per cent of the heat added to the climate system. This warming is causing an expansion of ocean water which, in combination with water from the melting of land-based ice, is causing sea levels to rise. Between 1901 and 2010 global average sea level rose at an average rate of 1.7 mm per year. It is likely that the rate of sea level rise has continued to increase since the early 20th century. Over the period from 1993 to 2010 the rate of global average sea level rise increased to approximately 3.2 mm per year.
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June 17, 2015 4:05pm
waikatogirl

Winston Peters is furious that travel for old people using the Gold card has been capped by National at $28m.
Councils will be bulk funded instead of councils being paid for all fares.

Guess the Waiheke ferry for lunch at a winery will be off the list of free trips.
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June 17, 2015 4:37pm
Reid

…in the eyes of Beijing, the G7 — much like the IMF and the ADB — is a relic of a global economic and political order that is well on its way to obsolescence if it isn’t there already.

…and of course Beijing is 100% on the money. The only fools who haven’t seen the writing writ large in flaming letters a million feet high are the Western sheeple who bleat and baa in their green green meadow of peace and content, oblivious to the looming calamities mere months away now which will destroy their fat and happy lifestyles for at least the next decade, if not the next two.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-15/china-mocks-g7-gathering-debtors-warns-confrontation-will-be-disaster-europe
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June 17, 2015 6:01pm
wiseowl

Tauhei.
You are right about Smith.
He has been in Parliament for 30 years.Too long and time he left.
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June 17, 2015 6:04pm
mikenmild

mere months away now

Nothing like Zero Hedge is there? Accurately predicting 200 of the last 2 recessions.
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June 17, 2015 6:18pm
Inandout

stephieboy: You know there are Maori controlled access to beaches, park access, mountain access, and the special schools, radio, TV, health units, iwi administration etc are funded by taxpayers with compulsion. It is as near as damn to apartheid.
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June 17, 2015 6:22pm
Andrei

For Stephieboy and Shawn Herles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPA-eDaB4GM
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June 17, 2015 6:33pm
Shawn Herles

Andrei, your not serious I hope. How could an Orthodox Christian celebrate a man who was a brutally oppressive atheist that persecuted the Church? How many Orthodox martyrs did he chalk up?
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June 17, 2015 6:43pm
Reid

There’s two organisations that really like beheading people: ISIS, and UKUSA/Iswael’s bestest ME friend in the whole wide world…

http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20150616/1023406270.html

BTW, if the Western media isn’t controlled, how come we haven’t heard a peep out of it re: the slaughter the UKUSA/Iswael’s bestest ME friend in the whole wide world is currently fronting in Yemen? How come the Western are right onto it night after night after night with other conflicts, but with Yemen vs the good guys, you Western sheeple remain profoundly ignorant.

How does the UKUSA/Iswael’s bestest ME friend in the whole wide world organise that total media blackout right across the entire Western world?
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June 17, 2015 6:55pm
Shawn Herles

“mere months away now”

Will you admit zerohedge is full of shit when it does not occur?
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June 17, 2015 6:55pm
Shawn Herles

“if the Western media isn’t controlled, how come we haven’t heard a peep out of it re: the slaughter the UKUSA/Iswael’s bestest ME friend in the whole wide world is currently fronting in Yemen?”

The conflict in Yemen against al-Qaeda is on every major news site and has been for months.

Duh.

You’re not the brightest bulb on the planet are you?
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June 17, 2015 6:56pm
Reid

Will you admit zerohedge is full of shit when it does not occur?

Why?

Zerohedge didn’t say that, I did.

Duh.

Perhaps Herles and his fellow intellectual giant mm, need to read the link before they make asses out of themselves. Many would say of course: too late.
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June 17, 2015 6:57pm
Shawn Herles

Yeah, you just claimed that a news story which has in fact been on the MSM regularly is not, and that this delusion on your part is proof of the MSM being controlled.

That’s making an ass of yourself.

By the way, how did your last economic prediction go? Kinda flopped really, didn’t it.
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June 17, 2015 7:00pm
Reid

The conflict in Yemen against al-Qaeda is on every major news site and has been for months.

Duh.

Walk down Queen St and ask people about Yemen and watch them go: wa?

Duh.
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June 17, 2015 7:03pm
Reid

The intellectual level of discourse in Russia in politics is head and shoulders above what it is in the US, as you will see if you watch this.

https://youtu.be/wd1_o9pyehE
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June 17, 2015 7:16pm
Shawn Herles

“Walk down Queen St and ask people about Yemen and watch them go: wa?”

It’s still in the media, so your claim is wrong. Whether it’s important to the man on the street is not only irrelevant, it’s changing what you originally said to cover up the fact that your first claim is provably false bullshit.

Like lying that when you claimed Jews desecrate their own graves you really meant only Mossad. You often resort to lies when your pseudo-intellectual crap is exposed as having no relation to reality.

“The intellectual level of discourse in Russia in politics is head and shoulders above what it is in the US, as you will see if you watch this.”

God that’s hilarious. But how would you know? Intellectually speaking, you’re one of the dumbest and most poorly informed people on KB.
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June 17, 2015 7:22pm
Andrei

The conflict in Yemen against al-Qaeda is on every major news site and has been for months.

Lol Shawn –

The conflict in Yemen that is not being talked about is Saudi Arabia (with US aid and encouragement)
against the Houthis, Shiite Muslims and mortal enemies of Al Qaeda

See you don’t know as much as you think you know
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June 17, 2015 7:25pm
Pete George

Pete George is very quiet today. Gee, I wonder why?

Not me Shawn, I’ve been doing quite a lot. Like yesterday. I haven’t spent much time here for quite a while, actually, I’ve usually got other priorities and better things to do than repeating the same old over and over.

thedavincimode has been very busy too by the look of things. How far back did you dredge to come up with that? You’ve always had a petty streak. I guess you think you might achieve something. I’ve learnt a lot over the last few years and moved on. Unlike you apparently. Are you still trying to be vindictive or something?
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June 17, 2015 7:26pm
Shawn Herles

“The conflict in Yemen that is not being talked about is Saudi Arabia (with US aid and encouragement)
against the Houthis, Shiite Muslims and mortal enemies of Al Qaeda”

Did you get that from a pro-Kremlin conspiracy site?

Here is the reality.

““Al-Qaeda’s second in command has been killed in a U.S. airstrike, the extremist group said Tuesday.

Nasir al-Wahishi was also the leader of its Yemeni branch, al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), considered the most dangerous al-Qaeda affiliate by the U.S. government.”

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/06/16/al-qaeda-says-leader-killed/28796037/

That was in Yemen by the way. DUH.

I note you have not answered my question as to how an Orthodox Christian could celebrate Stalin and claim that an atheist was a saint.

Having a wee bit of difficulty justifying that?
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June 17, 2015 7:29pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Last night I clearly read that Reid was never going to engage Shawn again

last night was the last time I’ll engage the fool.

…..

But as for that contact, it’s over and out from me, Herles.

I’ll talk about you from now on, I’ll never talk to you, again.

But here they are again….., engaging in some odd-couple dysfunctional display.

Isn’t there someone out there who can bring them together in life-long happiness and spare the rest of us their nightly dramas?
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June 17, 2015 7:33pm
Shawn Herles

You have to fight evil wherever you find it Maggy, sorry.

Anyway, I’m off to dinner so you will be spared the drama! 😉

Have a good night Maggy.
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June 17, 2015 7:37pm
Shawn Herles

Actually, wait a sec. Would you prefer it is I stopped engaging with Reid totally Maggy? Serious question.

Edit: I’m going to do exactly that. I did it with one other individual, and frankly I deal with enough evil in my job without dealing with it here as well.

Later folks.
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June 17, 2015 7:38pm
Andrei

You have to fight evil wherever you find it Maggy

Total lack of personal insight there Shawn staryy priyatel’

I note you have not answered my question as to how an Orthodox Christian could celebrate Stalin and claim that an atheist was a saint.

I was trolling you Shawn
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June 17, 2015 7:43pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Seriously…..
its of no concern to me as long as no-one gets poked in the eye…
I merely observe the quirks and absurdities of grown men….
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June 17, 2015 7:49pm
Andrei

Oh and Shawn Yemen is a great deal more complicated than John Wayne killing Al Qaeda leaders with drone strikes – the USA has been conducting a dirty little war there for years, killing thousands of innocent people in the process.

But POTUS doesn’t crow about dead Bedouin families killed in their tents in the desert and I guess Anglicans don’t give a toss about them either, whats a dead Ay-rab or a few thousand or so among friends

I wonder how it will go for him on the day of Judgement – eh?
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June 17, 2015 7:49pm
Shawn Herles

“Oh and Shawn Yemen is a great deal more complicated than John Wayne killing Al Qaeda leaders with drone strikes ”

No, it’s really not.

” the USA has been conducting a dirty little war ”

Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine. All dirty little Russian wars.

Russia during the Chechen war committed horrific atrocities and war crimes on a massive scale, including the deliberate mass shelling of civilians.

Nothing the US has ever done comes anywhere close to what Russia has done over the last hundred years.

It’s difficult to take you seriously when you are so blatantly hypocritical.

“I wonder how it will go for him on the day of Judgement – eh?”

Better than the pedophile and war criminal currently running Russia
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June 17, 2015 8:14pm
EAD

From all of the above, it is obvious that only Reid & Andrei come close to showing a proper understanding of the Yemen situation.

Interesting to note that the people who don’t have a grasp of Yemen, are even more all over the show when it comes to the situation in the Ukraine.

Here is a good summary of the facts, and the blatant misrepresentations of the Western Controlled Mass Market Media (CMMM):

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-and-the-apocalyptic-risk-of-propagandized-ignorance/5456039

“Remarkably, contrary to what we’ve all been told, Russia didn’t invade Ukraine any of the numerous times we were told that it had just done so. We’ve graduated from mythical weapons of mass destruction, through mythical threats to Libyan civilians, and false accusation of chemical weapons use in Syria, to false accusations of launching invasions that were never launched. The “evidence” of the invasion(s) was carefully left devoid of location or any verifiable detail, but has all been decidedly debunked anyway.

The downing of the MH17 airplane was blamed on Russia with no evidence. The U.S. has information on what happened but won’t release it. Russia released what it had, and the evidence, in agreement with eye-witnesses on the ground, and in agreement with an air-traffic controller at the time, is that the plane was shot down by one or more other planes. “Evidence” that Russia shot the plane down with a missile has been exposed as sloppy forgeries. The vapor trail that a missile would have left was reported by not a single witness.
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June 17, 2015 8:22pm
Shawn Herles

“Here is a good summary of the facts, and the blatant misrepresentations of the Western Controlled Mass Market Media (CMMM):”

‘Here is a good summary of what the Kremlin tells me to think.’

There, fixed it for you. 🙂
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June 17, 2015 8:24pm
Shawn Herles

Any news from the KKK on the global Jewish threat EAD?
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June 17, 2015 8:26pm
Shawn Herles

“Globalresearch site is a Kremlin propaganda operation”

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=259_1409830022

Well yes. Duh. But the sheeple will continue to fall for it.

Good little sheeple! 🙂
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June 17, 2015 8:28pm
Griff

Nothing the US has ever done comes anywhere close to what Russia has done over the last hundred years.
Cambodia
Shelled it into the dark ages.
Not even a war just because they could.
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June 17, 2015 8:29pm
Reid

Any news from the KKK on the global Jewish threat EAD?

There goes Captain Bananas, off into the lies, slander, truth be damned filth he’s known for and practiced since he started here.

You’d think a vicar’s spouse would know better. Clearly, he doesn’t care about her reputation. Imagine how she feels, walking into a conference, with everyone knowing her spouse supports vicious Israeli slaughter of Palestinian civilians. But he doesn’t care. Clearly. Does he.
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June 17, 2015 8:29pm
Andrei

That is what Shawn does Reid, when backed into a corner with facts and his ignorance exposed goes into a tirade about
anti-Semitism

BTW Shawn the usual slander about Putin is the supposed children he has sired with Alina Kabaeva not that he is a pedophile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3UGE6SU_IM
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June 17, 2015 8:42pm
Andrei

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqFB28KlD1Q
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June 17, 2015 9:00pm
Dennis Horne

There was a disgruntled old man called Reid
Who behaved like a shark on the feed
He splashed on his head
And fell into bed
Muttering, “Now I’ve sowed doubt that I peed.”
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June 17, 2015 9:01pm
Reid

Try being called a jew-hating nazi when you’re not Dennis, night after night after night after night after night after night.

Then see how you’d respond.

Note BTW that I’ve responded with truth, whereas Captain Bananas uses lies.

Fact.
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June 17, 2015 9:06pm
nasska

It may have been AI & good PR Andrei…..I’m not certain that he likes girls.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l80x9t3dpzrg0v7/Putin%20plus%20boy.jpg?dl=0
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June 17, 2015 9:06pm
Dennis Horne

There was a sanctimonious chap called Shawn
Who got up Reid’s nose right from dawn
He needled away
Lost in the hay
When he could have been wanking to porn
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June 17, 2015 9:18pm
Pete George

I take it you don’t see much humour in it Reid. It can be quite toxic here, can’t it. Do you think repeated lying is generally not flash? Or only when it involves you?
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June 17, 2015 9:23pm
Reid

Do you think repeated lying is generally not flash?

You’re as transparent as your flag entry Pete.

It’s not the lying I mind, it’s the malice behind it that Shawn exhibits.

Manolo I don’t think was doing that, in your case. I may be wrong, because I don’t follow closely all of Manolo’s prognostications. But in that micro-exchange between you and I which I caught, there was nothing in it but humour, in my judgement.

I think you got on your high-horse and made a complete fool of yourself.

In case you’re curious, there is nothing comparable between that incident and what Shawn has been lying about for the last 24 or so months about me.

Nothing comparable at all.
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June 17, 2015 9:30pm
Ryan Sproull

Pete has said that it wasn’t so much that particular exchange, but more that it was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
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June 17, 2015 9:32pm
Jack5

Could this be Rawshark?

http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/538201/cyber-espionage-nightmare/?utm_campaign=newsletters&utm_source=newsletter-daily-all&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20150617
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June 17, 2015 9:34pm
Reid

That’s nice Ryan. Just because he says that doesn’t make it so. Compare Manolo’s exchanges to Shawn’s and let’s have a look.
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June 17, 2015 9:34pm
Reid

Could this be Rawshark?

Could be Jack.

I’ve always thought Rawshark would turn out to be an East-European hacker for hire but who knows.
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June 17, 2015 9:40pm
Nookin

For those in poetic mood (Dennis?)

The Washington Post runs a weekly contest in its Style section

The requirements this week were to use the two words ‘Lewinsky’ (the **Intern) and ‘Kaczynski’ (the Unabomber) in the same limerick.*

The following winning entries were actually printed **verbatim in the newspaper, no bleeps or xxxs:

Third place:

There once was a girl named Lewinsky
Who played on a flute like Stravinsky
‘Twas ‘Hail to the Chief’
On this flute made of beef
That stole the front page from Kaczynski

Second place:

Said Clinton to young Ms. Lewinsky,
We don’t want to leave clues like Kaczynski,
Since you made such a mess,
Use the hem of your dress
And please wipe that stuff off your chinsky.

And the winning entry:
Lewinsky and Clinton have shown
What Kaczynski must surely have known,
That an intern is better
Than a bomb in a letter,
When deciding how best to be blown
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June 17, 2015 9:40pm
Pete George

It doesn’t have to be a contest over degree of offence does it? Of course when it’s directed at you you think it’s worse. Duh.

You supported Manolo’s lying Reid, you said it was just humour and you ridiculed me about making a stand against it, and you’re minimising it still while admitting to know even know much about it.

I have sympathy for what you are getting. But only a little considering your reaction on Sunday and at other times.

The fact is that repeat lying and abuse is encouraged and rewarded here. That’s just how it is (and has been for the years that I’ve observed here), you should have worked that out by now.
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June 17, 2015 9:40pm
Pete George

Pete has said that it wasn’t so much that particular exchange, but more that it was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

Sort of. Most of it was petty but there was a cumulative effect. It’s hard to see it as anything other than deliberately vindictive and attempting to smear and discredit. Especially considering Manolo’s response to being challenged about it. He tried to excuse it as ‘humour’ and reid made a bigger joke about it.

Tried different ways to address it over years when I could be bothered. Decided this time that escalating was the only way of drawing attention to it. Sure I got rapped over the knuckles and Manolo was encouraged to continue by Reid and by others but I don’t regret making a point.
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June 17, 2015 9:46pm
Dennis Horne

Reid. We are all deeply flawed. Why does this particular deeply-flawed specimen bother you? Is it because he is a Christian?
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June 17, 2015 9:47pm
Ryan Sproull

Sort of. Most of it was petty but there was a cumulative effect. Tried different ways to address it over years when I could be bothered. Decided this time that escalating was the only way of drawing attention to it. Sure I got rapped over the knuckles and Manolo was encouraged to continue by Reid and by others but I don’t regret making a point.

Everyone receives a bit of shit in Kiwiblog comments. You receive a bit more than most, probably less than some. Why do you think that is?
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June 17, 2015 9:47pm
Pete George

You tell me Ryan. Perhaps you should try asking Manolo and Reid, I don’t know why they think it’s ok on such a scale and why they choose particular people to harass.

I think on political blogs targets are sometimes deemed political enemies so anything goes to attack them. Sometimes blogs seem to be just havens for bored bullies.
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June 17, 2015 9:51pm
Reid

why they choose particular people to harass.

Sorry?

You think I harass you Pete?
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June 17, 2015 9:55pm
Manolo

Except some who are not flawed but perfect, and, if I may add, righteous to the highest possible degree.
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June 17, 2015 9:56pm
Reid

Reid. We are all deeply flawed. Why does this particular deeply-flawed specimen bother you? Is it because he is a Christian?

No, it’s because he’s a liar.

If his comments regarding me, EAD, UT and others were true, then it’d be a different case.

But they’re lies, and they’re lies about a highly emotive subject few understand.

It’s like being called a sexist in the middle of the Liarbore caucus, or a racist in the middle of the Mana Party’s annual conference.

And if you are one of those, that’s fine.

But if you’re not, and it keeps up, all the time, night after night, and it’s a lie.

Well, what is one to do.
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June 17, 2015 10:02pm
Pete George

No reid, I wouldn’t say you’re a harasser, but you’ve launched some fairly pathetic attacks at times. Like on Sunday. But you still don’t accept that you’ve been a supporting part of the culture – and you readily dismiss concerns of others “Just because he says that doesn’t make it so.”
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June 17, 2015 10:04pm
Pete George

So I take it you don’t like me Manolo. Can you tell me how that excuses repeatedly making things up and lying?
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June 17, 2015 10:06pm
Dennis Horne

Thanks, Reid. I’m beginning to understand. It’s easy for me. I’m racist, sexist and homophobic. I tell lies.

What goes over my head doesn’t get under my skin.
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June 17, 2015 10:09pm
Reid

you still don’t accept that you’ve been a supporting part of the culture

Pete, Kiwiblog doesn’t have a culture, anymore than a nightclub or a restaurant has a culture. It’s a place to come, for a time, then we all move on, and go somewhere else.

you readily dismiss concerns of others

I readily dismiss your concerns Pete.

I suppose you think I’m supporting the culture by what I just said.

I tell lies.

Yes but you don’t do it maliciously with full knowledge aforethought do you Dennis. That’s the diff. Not that Captain Bananas has the full knowledge, but that he doesn’t care to make the effort to acquaint himself with it before he slings his arrows.
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June 17, 2015 10:10pm
Pete George

But in that micro-exchange between you and I which I caught, there was nothing in it but humour, in my judgement.

You mean nothing in it but humour for you Reid. Maybe Shawn thinks there’s nothing in it but humour for him. Have you considered that?

Bullies often seem to think what they do is funny. And so can people who support the behaviour of bullies.
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June 17, 2015 10:10pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Unlike many forms of bullying, this blog preserves the evidence.

If you think someone is bullying you, telling lies about you, or deliberately misinterpreting your views, call them out on it on this blog

Anyone can check back and determine who is involved in a spat and how it develops.

KB will be an important historical archive…. I expect it is already being dredged by budding Pol. Sci. & History wonks.
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June 17, 2015 10:12pm
Ryan Sproull

You tell me Ryan. Perhaps you should try asking Manolo and Reid, I don’t know why they think it’s ok on such a scale and why they choose particular people to harass.

I think on political blogs targets are sometimes deemed political enemies so anything goes to attack them. Sometimes blogs seem to be just havens for bored bullies.

I think it’s a combination of things. I think that “political enemies” implies a level of relevance that is inapplicable to most Kiwiblog posters, yourself included. On the other hand, believing yourself to be relevant and acting/speaking as if you were – and so that slights against you are relevant – is a bit of a lightning rod for being hassled.

For example, half the reason people hassle Redbaiter is because he bristles so much about it. There’s nothing much different in the substance of what he says from what plenty of people say, but when people hassle him about what he says, he gets all “you’re a cultural Marxist feminist undermining society!” about it, which is objectively hilarious. And he’s just one example.

It’s mostly form, not content, which draws out the hassling – from gentle ribbing through to full-blown borderline obsessive attacks.

I don’t think I’ve ever said a thing on Kiwiblog that was popular, in content, with more than maybe a tenth of the community. But I know that I’m irrelevant. Who cares? It’s a blog, with a small group of regular commenters, who literally come here to argue or pat each other on the back. Either way, who cares.

I don’t think there’s ever been a social context in which “Don’t take yourself so seriously” was not a perfectly handy rule of thumb.

Apologies for the brevity of this post. I’ve asked Dennis Horne in another thread if he’s asking me to marry him, so I’m a little distracted. It’s all very serious here, after all.
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June 17, 2015 10:15pm
Reid

you’re a cultural Marxist…

Hear Leighton Smith talking about that yesterday?

It’s getting out.

About freakin time.

I expect it is already being dredged by budding Pol. Sci. & History wonks.

Yes Maggie. I’ve been furiously “liking” my posts and printing out the best ones to put in my Album of Erudition so my grandkids get to know what I was like before I went all mental and poohed my pants all the time.
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June 17, 2015 10:18pm
Pete George

If you think someone is bullying you, telling lies about you, or deliberately misinterpreting your views, call them out on it on this blog

Generally that’s pretty much futile Maggy. They continue with impunity. Reid may agree with me on that.

It’s happening all the time and has been in the six or so years I’ve seen things happening here. It’s only a small number of people who do it but they are often very persistent and repetitive. And while there’s probably only a few concurrent targets I’ve seen many people pretty much driven away by abuse and persistent bullying.

Those who aren’t targeted see it as trivial, if they notice it at all. But as Reid illustrates, if you’re on the receiving end, day after day, month after month it can get a bit tiresome.

And it deters people from joining in the comments. Most readers don’t comment.

And the culture here is ridiculed elsewhere in social media and MSM. That’s DPF’s reputation basically.
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June 17, 2015 10:20pm
Pete George

You see what Manolo does Maggy? That little dig was fairly mild by his standards. But when challenged he runs away and refuses to take any responsibility for what he does. He’ll just return tomorrow and continue as he has done for years.
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June 17, 2015 10:28pm
Reid

as Reid illustrates, if you’re on the receiving end, day after day, month after month it can get a bit tiresome.

Pete, surely you’re not suggesting you’ve been on the receiving end?

And…

the culture here is ridiculed elsewhere in social media and MSM

Bullshit.

If this is the case then clearly we’ll have examples galore, so post away Pete. Furnish examples from every social media site and every MSM site.

According to you, there’s an avalanche, so it won’t take you more than a few mins…

Anyway Pete, will check back in the morning, looking forward to your dozens and dozens of links illustrating your point.
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June 17, 2015 10:29pm
Griff

There is a little cadre of grey men around the world who monitor us.
The nz sis even advertised for one a year or so ago.
Those of us who post radical things like redbait or me get a little manilla folder
complete with our names and personal details .
I once posted the formula for diesel and chicken shit just to make my sure my file existed
We are being watched and noted.
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June 17, 2015 10:38pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@PG

Generally that’s pretty much futile

This is the nature of blogs. Point scoring, game-playing, having the last word, one-up-manship, etc abound…..

You don’t have to be a party to it.

I think you can venture out here and express your own opinion. It soon becomes clear who the pricks are.

But it is a gamble…You might attract the forces of evil…. or the evil slayers.
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June 17, 2015 10:39pm
Dennis Horne

Pete George. I’m sure you’re a decent man and you’re concerned about a number of issues, but seriously, if you find it unpleasant here, don’t bother coming. You make a contribution, but don’t kid yourself kiwiblog matters.

If you feel abused and cheated, go for walk. Or have a lie down. Hide. If the cocks here sense any weakness they’ll peck you.
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June 17, 2015 10:43pm
nasska

You may just have to shrug your shoulders & harden up a little PG. Most internet forums are adversarial by nature & Kiwiblog is no exception. Enjoy your wins & kick the criticism for touch.

Despite the abuse I cop from the conservatives & Godaddled I see it as a small price I pay to have a good argument. 🙂
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June 17, 2015 10:48pm
Maggy Wassilieff

And it deters people from joining in the comments. Most readers don’t comment.

And the culture here is ridiculed elsewhere in social media and MSM.

Most people don’t comment on blogs, write to papers, speak up in class or meetings anyway.

Its only blabbermouths and highly opinionated folk that bother to spend their days/nights here.

Well, of course the rest of social media and MSM mock KB….. but they are yet to figure out why they have so little influence when they are so “cool & relevant”…..
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June 17, 2015 10:51pm
Dennis Horne

Maggy. Saw your message about Professor Sir Tim Hunt.

There was an old scientist called Hunt
Who won the Nobel Prize in a punt
An immunologist for a wife
Barricaded the diseases of life
But feminism is rabid and rife
So poor Tim was discarded like a runt

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/melanie-mcdonagh/2015/06/how-can-university-college-london-be-taken-seriously-after-the-tim-hunt-affair/
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June 17, 2015 11:00pm
Maggy Wassilieff

@DH
I’ve just been reading your romantic overtures to Ryan……. absolutely riveting
I’ll keep tuned in for further developments.

oh, full marks for punt
I just couldn’t bring myself to write silly old cunt….

However, did you protest when your mate Bob Carter got the boot from Uni Queensland for expressing non-PC climate views?
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June 17, 2015 11:09pm
Dennis Horne

Maggy. No, didn’t protest. He retired years ago.
http://www.desmogblog.com/2013/07/09/australian-university-dumps-bob-carter-advisor-multiple-global-climate-science-denial-groups
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June 17, 2015 11:31pm
Pete George

“You may just have to shrug your shoulders & harden up a little PG. ”

I shrug my shoulders quite a lot nasska. I ignore quite a lot – I have little idea about Reid’s complaint because I largely ignore his and Shawn’s feuding, but that doesn’t mean Reid doesn’t have a legitimate complaint.

‘Harden up’ is typical of a bully’s excuse.

“Most internet forums are adversarial by nature & Kiwiblog is no exception.”

Reid isn’t referring to ‘adversarial by nature’, I think he’s complaining about attack from persistent lying, to him it’s very personal attack. That’s not an isolated complaint. It’s possible to have ‘adversarial by nature’ without making excuses for and supporting dishonest and arsehole behaviour.
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June 18, 2015 6:10am
Shawn Herles

Hi Pete,

I seriously overreacted to the Manolo issue and said things to you that were abusive and unfair, and I’m sorry for that. I’m not going to get into the issue of who was right or wrong between the two of you, I just wanted to apologize for my part.
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June 18, 2015 6:52am
Griff

Bob Carter got the boot from Uni Queensland for concentrating on selling his non-scientific climate views to the oil industry spin machine and failing to do any work of value for the university.
Fixed maggie
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June 18, 2015 7:12am
Pete George

Thanks Shawn, appreciated.
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June 18, 2015 7:16am
Pete George

@Reid

It’s not the lying I mind, it’s the malice behind it…

Manolo I don’t think was doing that, in your case. I may be wrong, because I don’t follow closely all of Manolo’s prognostications. But in that micro-exchange between you and I which I caught, there was nothing in it but humour, in my judgement.

This is what Manolo posted (having just dissed “The brown elites in NZ are experts doing this…she had falsely portrayed herself as black for almost a decade” and “addled Griff”):

P.G. is on commission. Dunne and UnitedFuture fund him based on traffic to his worldwide-known blog.

1. The statement is unsuppoirted by facts (and is unsupportable).

2. It is similar to a long run of false claims over several years.

3. My integrity as an independent blogger is important to me.

4. This is unfair on UF who have no interest, financial or otherwise, in Your NZ and never have had. They are hardly likely to be supporting my campaigning on cannabis debate (for several years) and quite our extensive promotion of the allowing of the use of medical cannabis. And I would expect them to have no interest in being embroiled in Slater/Ratsinger/Rawshark issues. Nor many other things posted.

Manolo has been corrected on similar things a number of times in the past so it’s hard to see this as anything other than repeated and deliberately malicious against both myself and separately, against UnitedFuture.

He has refused to retract and he has refused to desist from repeating what appear to be deliberate lies.

Reid – “there was nothing in it but humour” is an ignorant assessment, especially considering your complaints last night.
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June 18, 2015 7:49am
Shawn Herles

“It’s not the lying I mind, it’s the malice behind it”

I accuse Reid of anti-Semitism because that is what I seriously believe he is promoting, and I will defend that position if need be. I don’t always choose my words well, and too often let anger get the better of me, but I do not back down from the from my view that Reid is promoting anti-Semitism.

Malice has nothing to do with it, and Reid’s accusation that I am lying is not reasonable when he knows that I do seriously believe that is what he promotes.

I would also point out that he is being very selective in his outrage. He was brought up by wellygirl in the last couple of days for telling her to “get an education” for questioning his ideas, and recently told wat dabney to “fuck off and go to hell” when wat asked him for evidence concerning one of his conspiracies.
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June 18, 2015 7:59am
Colville

nasska.

You said..

Despite the abuse I cop from the conservatives & Godaddled I see it as a small price I pay to have a good argument. 🙂

So you summarize…

You are a thick skinned argumentative cu*t? 🙂
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June 18, 2015 8:11am
Griff

If you think nasska is a c*nt boy, you have got an eduction ahead of you.
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June 18, 2015 8:13am
UglyTruth

https://www.google.co.nz/?gws_rd=ssl#q=kiwiblog+wat+dabney+%22fuck+off+and+go+to+hell%E2%80%9D

No results found for kiwiblog wat dabney “fuck off and go to hell”.
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June 18, 2015 8:16am
Dennis Horne

Shawn Herles.

but I do not back down from the from my view that Reid is promoting anti-Semitism.
Okay. But don’t you think you’ve made your views clear by now?

Malice has nothing to do with it, and Reid’s accusation that I am lying is not reasonable
You don’t think that perhaps you upset him by insisting he accept your label?
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June 18, 2015 10:18am
Shawn Herles

Dennis

“Okay. But don’t you think you’ve made your views clear by now?”

Yes, that is why, as I said to Maggy I’m not going to engage with him anymore. But I wanted my side clearly stated.

“You don’t think that perhaps you upset him by insisting he accept your label?”

I have strongly, perhaps too strongly, insisted that he at least look seriously at why I make the accusation.

Anyway, I’m moving on.
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June 18, 2015 1:48pm

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